View Full Version : Tow plane ideas
jackson maddux
May 26th 21, 07:37 PM
My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
thanks for any feedback!
Dan Marotta
May 26th 21, 08:42 PM
I did a few tows using a Maule back in the 80s and I didn't like it.Â*
Flying with a stick is much easier for towing and the visibility out of
the Maule did not compare to that from a Pawnee.
I've also towed with an L-19 and they're great but expensive to acquire,
180-hp Super cub and Citabria which were both great, a CalAir A-9B which
tows quite well but it's physically demanding to fly due to the location
of the stick and the fowler flaps are very difficult to deploy but it's
the easiest landing tail dragger I've ever flown.Â* I've also towed with
a 235-hp Pawnee which is very easy to fly and gets gliders into the air
quickly.Â* Finally I would highly recommend a Cessna Ag Wagon.Â* It's the
roomiest and most comfortable of all of the above, flies naturally and
easily, and is easy to land, but with 300-hp it's the hungriest of all
the rest.
Dan 5J
On 5/26/21 12:37 PM, jackson maddux wrote:
> My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
>
> Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
>
> thanks for any feedback!
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 2:37:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
>
> Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
>
> thanks for any feedback!
Before you get rid of that 160 Super Cub, have you tried a bigger “bush” prop
on the Super Cub? We used a 82” Bohrer prop with very good results. It performed
like it had 180 Hp, but without the 6 cylinder maintenance. For the required prop
to ground clearance, mid sized balloon tires are required though.
Our club operates a 235 Hp Pawnee as well, and when our membership shrank to where we couldn’t justify having two tow planes anymore, we sold the Cub to an Alaskan bush pilot.
It just so happens though, that we have unearthed a “new in box” 82/41 McCauley
(their version of the Bohrer) prop in the rafters of our hangar this past week. I believe the club will be looking to sell it sometime soon. People are trying to see if they can find the paperwork to accompany the prop right now.
If new tires and a new prop can get you what you need without having to find a PA-25,
you may be better off financially to try it. If you don’t like it, some guy from Alaska will probably fly down to take the upgraded Cub off your hands.
Mike Opitz
RO
www.NutmegSoaring.org (Freehold, NY)
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 2:37:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
>
> Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
>
> thanks for any feedback!
Don't know much about unusual towplanes, they are all just workhorses. I have had three Pawnee's and flown many more towplanes , currently have what we call Towpecker, a 235 that is actually about 270, and it pulls very well. The Pawnee is the go to towplane, but there are others that do quiet well like the old straight tail 182. I like the way the 188 flies a bit better that the Pawnee, also flew a 400 hp Brave that did very well.
Everybody wants a Pawnee, for obvious reasons, finding a towplane these days is not the problem, finding a tow pilot is another story. The Wilga makes a good towplane, but operational cost are high, also there are a few ugly looking French towplanes around, just cannot remember their names. Recently ran across a good old Air Tractor, but once again the operational cost are high. You must look at operational cost vs performance,
You might be better off going to 180 hp in that Super Cub, we did that back in the day in Miami and it worked very well. The Purist, Old Bob
son_of_flubber
May 27th 21, 01:13 AM
From https://www.ygc.co.uk/info/our-fleet
>>Our powered fleet of tow planes consists of Two Piper Pawnees, and a Eurofox. The addition of the Eurofox has reduced the cost of aerotows substantially, it uses a much smaller amount of fuel per tow. They're also less polluting, so we're doing our bit for the environment too! We are presently upgrading the Eurofox to a more powerful 120bhp engine, and have begun the process of building a second aircraft in the same configuration to allow them to fulfil even more of the overall towing duties.
I wonder if the Eurofox with the 120bhp engine will be as capable as the Pawnee? Sutton Bank operates in high winds, but the elevation is less than 1000 MSL, and with cool weather they have low density altitudes. It also helps that the field is on top of an escarpment similar to Harris Hill. The UK is getting a lot of experience with the Eurofox. I think there is a similar aircraft sold in the USA with an 'American Sounding' name.
Great example of high wind glider operations at Sutton Bank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKyaelQmA4U
Tony[_7_]
May 27th 21, 03:14 AM
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 7:13:26 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> From https://www.ygc.co.uk/info/our-fleet
>
> >>Our powered fleet of tow planes consists of Two Piper Pawnees, and a Eurofox. The addition of the Eurofox has reduced the cost of aerotows substantially, it uses a much smaller amount of fuel per tow. They're also less polluting, so we're doing our bit for the environment too! We are presently upgrading the Eurofox to a more powerful 120bhp engine, and have begun the process of building a second aircraft in the same configuration to allow them to fulfil even more of the overall towing duties.
>
> I wonder if the Eurofox with the 120bhp engine will be as capable as the Pawnee? Sutton Bank operates in high winds, but the elevation is less than 1000 MSL, and with cool weather they have low density altitudes. It also helps that the field is on top of an escarpment similar to Harris Hill. The UK is getting a lot of experience with the Eurofox. I think there is a similar aircraft sold in the USA with an 'American Sounding' name.
>
> Great example of high wind glider operations at Sutton Bank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKyaelQmA4U
180hp stc for Supercubs exist for the 4cyl o-360, dunno what the earlier ref to 6 cyl maintenance was about. RV series liable to make a poor towplane, not a lot of wing and FAA boilerplate restrictions do not allow amateur-built aircraft to be used for towing. You could probably get it knocked down but don't expect help from SSA.
Jon May
May 27th 21, 08:29 AM
On Thursday, 27 May 2021 at 03:15:00 UTC+1, wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 7:13:26 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > From https://www.ygc.co.uk/info/our-fleet
> >
> > >>Our powered fleet of tow planes consists of Two Piper Pawnees, and a Eurofox. The addition of the Eurofox has reduced the cost of aerotows substantially, it uses a much smaller amount of fuel per tow. They're also less polluting, so we're doing our bit for the environment too! We are presently upgrading the Eurofox to a more powerful 120bhp engine, and have begun the process of building a second aircraft in the same configuration to allow them to fulfil even more of the overall towing duties.
> >
> > I wonder if the Eurofox with the 120bhp engine will be as capable as the Pawnee? Sutton Bank operates in high winds, but the elevation is less than 1000 MSL, and with cool weather they have low density altitudes. It also helps that the field is on top of an escarpment similar to Harris Hill. The UK is getting a lot of experience with the Eurofox. I think there is a similar aircraft sold in the USA with an 'American Sounding' name.
> >
> > Great example of high wind glider operations at Sutton Bank https://www..youtube.com/watch?v=ZKyaelQmA4U
> 180hp stc for Supercubs exist for the 4cyl o-360, dunno what the earlier ref to 6 cyl maintenance was about. RV series liable to make a poor towplane, not a lot of wing and FAA boilerplate restrictions do not allow amateur-built aircraft to be used for towing. You could probably get it knocked down but don't expect help from SSA.
I think I flew that Northers!
What has not been said is the engine problems with the Eurofox.
There are no Eurofoxes currently flying at ygc because of engine problems.
Any one interested should contact them, they are very motivated as it has cost a fortune in engines because the engine supplier (not Rotax) is yet to accept liability for several sub 100 hour engines.
Other Rotax based engines are available but the total grunt needed to get a heaver 2 seater in the air safely requires as many HP as you can get.
At the time I had a Duo Discus xlt and a 200lbs partner; with the mk1 smaller engine 'fox we needed the escarpment and the curve of the earth to get to release hight.
Roy B.
May 27th 21, 12:39 PM
You might give some thought to the Citabria 7GCBC - 180 hp with flaps. It's a nice plane with a good power/weight ratio.
Prices on L-19s have gone crazy and they are all +50 years old. Pawnees are OK but you get limited on your ability to train new tow pilots, parts are hard to get, and they all smell bad.
ROY
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:39:32 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> You might give some thought to the Citabria 7GCBC - 180 hp with flaps. It's a nice plane with a good power/weight ratio.
> Prices on L-19s have gone crazy and they are all +50 years old. Pawnees are OK but you get limited on your ability to train new tow pilots, parts are hard to get, and they all smell bad.
> ROY
Is that why the motor glider enthusiast say that I stink?
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 2:16:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:39:32 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > You might give some thought to the Citabria 7GCBC - 180 hp with flaps. It's a nice plane with a good power/weight ratio.
> > Prices on L-19s have gone crazy and they are all +50 years old. Pawnees are OK but you get limited on your ability to train new tow pilots, parts are hard to get, and they all smell bad.
> > ROY
> Is that why the motor glider enthusiast say that I stink?
All humor aside, I am planning on rebuilding one final and last tow plane. I am buying an original Pawnee 150 model and doing a complete restoration just like my old Yellow Gorilla. No hopper, no spray anything, just a bare bones frame and wings. The powerplant will be the IO390, with DER approval, regular tips and no droops, Tinted windows except for windshield, and a few more goodies that will really make the old girl look good. I think I will name this one KIng Tow Kong! Any ideas on the paint scheme?
John Foster
May 27th 21, 07:43 PM
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 3:56:29 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 2:37:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
> >
> > Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
> >
> > thanks for any feedback!
> Don't know much about unusual towplanes, they are all just workhorses. I have had three Pawnee's and flown many more towplanes , currently have what we call Towpecker, a 235 that is actually about 270, and it pulls very well. The Pawnee is the go to towplane, but there are others that do quiet well like the old straight tail 182. I like the way the 188 flies a bit better that the Pawnee, also flew a 400 hp Brave that did very well.
> Everybody wants a Pawnee, for obvious reasons, finding a towplane these days is not the problem, finding a tow pilot is another story. The Wilga makes a good towplane, but operational cost are high, also there are a few ugly looking French towplanes around, just cannot remember their names. Recently ran across a good old Air Tractor, but once again the operational cost are high. You must look at operational cost vs performance,
> You might be better off going to 180 hp in that Super Cub, we did that back in the day in Miami and it worked very well. The Purist, Old Bob
What about looking at a C 180/182, particularly with the 180HP motor? Those should work adequately for most applications.
Marton KSz
May 27th 21, 10:44 PM
8GCBC Scout
Aviat Husky
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 2:43:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 3:56:29 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 2:37:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
> > >
> > > Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
> > >
> > > thanks for any feedback!
> > Don't know much about unusual towplanes, they are all just workhorses. I have had three Pawnee's and flown many more towplanes , currently have what we call Towpecker, a 235 that is actually about 270, and it pulls very well. The Pawnee is the go to towplane, but there are others that do quiet well like the old straight tail 182. I like the way the 188 flies a bit better that the Pawnee, also flew a 400 hp Brave that did very well.
> > Everybody wants a Pawnee, for obvious reasons, finding a towplane these days is not the problem, finding a tow pilot is another story. The Wilga makes a good towplane, but operational cost are high, also there are a few ugly looking French towplanes around, just cannot remember their names. Recently ran across a good old Air Tractor, but once again the operational cost are high. You must look at operational cost vs performance,
> > You might be better off going to 180 hp in that Super Cub, we did that back in the day in Miami and it worked very well. The Purist, Old Bob
> What about looking at a C 180/182, particularly with the 180HP motor? Those should work adequately for most applications.
Underpowered
George Haeh
May 28th 21, 01:00 AM
One club decided on a 182 over a Pawnee. Parts availability was a major factor. Also easier to do check outs.
Considerable cylinder work and cooling issues ensued. Changed to a Pawnee.
Dan Marotta
May 28th 21, 08:42 PM
The C-180 has 230 hp.
Dan
5J
On 5/27/21 4:09 PM, wrote:
> On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 2:43:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 3:56:29 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 2:37:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>>>> My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
>>>>
>>>> thanks for any feedback!
>>> Don't know much about unusual towplanes, they are all just workhorses. I have had three Pawnee's and flown many more towplanes , currently have what we call Towpecker, a 235 that is actually about 270, and it pulls very well. The Pawnee is the go to towplane, but there are others that do quiet well like the old straight tail 182. I like the way the 188 flies a bit better that the Pawnee, also flew a 400 hp Brave that did very well.
>>> Everybody wants a Pawnee, for obvious reasons, finding a towplane these days is not the problem, finding a tow pilot is another story. The Wilga makes a good towplane, but operational cost are high, also there are a few ugly looking French towplanes around, just cannot remember their names. Recently ran across a good old Air Tractor, but once again the operational cost are high. You must look at operational cost vs performance,
>>> You might be better off going to 180 hp in that Super Cub, we did that back in the day in Miami and it worked very well. The Purist, Old Bob
>> What about looking at a C 180/182, particularly with the 180HP motor? Those should work adequately for most applications.
> Underpowered
Jeff Bures
May 28th 21, 11:25 PM
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 12:42:37 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> The C-180 has 230 hp.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 5/27/21 4:09 PM, wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 2:43:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 3:56:29 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 2:37:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> >>>> My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
> >>>>
> >>>> thanks for any feedback!
> >>> Don't know much about unusual towplanes, they are all just workhorses.. I have had three Pawnee's and flown many more towplanes , currently have what we call Towpecker, a 235 that is actually about 270, and it pulls very well. The Pawnee is the go to towplane, but there are others that do quiet well like the old straight tail 182. I like the way the 188 flies a bit better that the Pawnee, also flew a 400 hp Brave that did very well.
> >>> Everybody wants a Pawnee, for obvious reasons, finding a towplane these days is not the problem, finding a tow pilot is another story. The Wilga makes a good towplane, but operational cost are high, also there are a few ugly looking French towplanes around, just cannot remember their names. Recently ran across a good old Air Tractor, but once again the operational cost are high. You must look at operational cost vs performance,
> >>> You might be better off going to 180 hp in that Super Cub, we did that back in the day in Miami and it worked very well. The Purist, Old Bob
> >> What about looking at a C 180/182, particularly with the 180HP motor? Those should work adequately for most applications.
> > Underpowered
I don't think the RV-6 is viable, legally speaking (experimental cert). But I'm just reading from google searches, and could be wrong.
Too bad, I think a bare bones Zenith or similar STOL kit might make a good economical tow plane.
Given the expense and dwindling availability of tow planes, has SSA considered lobbying to change CFR 91.319 to allow towing of any (not just LSA) sailplane?
Hank Nixon
May 29th 21, 01:59 PM
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 2:37:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
>
> Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
>
> thanks for any feedback!
I don't know your special needs but many of the suggested options are not much better that the Cub. We have used our 160 hp Cub for over 40 years with good results. It is hard to find an easier tug to keep operating. One real improvement was adding the seaplane(Borer) prop. It really improves initial acceleration and lets the engine turn higher rpm which adds usable horsepower. It also comes down faster. When you are ready for a second tug, wait until you can find a Pawnee.
Good luck
UH
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 1:37:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
>
> Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
>
> thanks for any feedback!
Callair 290HP on Wings and Wheels classifieds for 37K.
It is possible (or so I am told) to actually import a Pawnee from Argentina.. The paperwork and processing will probably choke the last bit of life out of your club, but it's at least possible.
I have seen (personally) the Callair and know the seller. It's not a pretty airplane but I doubt you'll find one with a better powerplant for the money.
I know where there is an out of time Pawnee ,both engine and airframe sitting at my local airfield
owner not seeming to be interested in rebuilding , probably get it for almost nothing just have to freight
it to US.
If you rebuilt it you would know exactly what you have.
I have no interest in the plane ,if you want more info email me and I will see if I can get the owner contact details for you
Gary
On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 8:58:20 AM UTC+12, wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 1:37:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
> >
> > Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
> >
> > thanks for any feedback!
> Callair 290HP on Wings and Wheels classifieds for 37K.
>
> It is possible (or so I am told) to actually import a Pawnee from Argentina. The paperwork and processing will probably choke the last bit of life out of your club, but it's at least possible.
>
> I have seen (personally) the Callair and know the seller. It's not a pretty airplane but I doubt you'll find one with a better powerplant for the money.
jackson maddux
May 30th 21, 04:15 PM
Hi all, These are great ideas and I will be discussing them with the board and membership of the club . If there are more ideas, please keep them coming!
Glenn Betzoldt[_2_]
June 1st 21, 12:35 PM
On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 11:15:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hi all, These are great ideas and I will be discussing them with the board and membership of the club . If there are more ideas, please keep them coming!
What do you think about this? Our club is selling one of our winches, we have two. Our TOST double winch is for sale. It's on a International truck flat bed so it can be driven to location's on the airport.
son_of_flubber
June 2nd 21, 04:03 AM
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 7:35:52 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
>Our club is selling one of our winches, we have two. Our TOST double winch is for sale. It's on a International truck flat bed so it can be driven to location's on the airport.
Three cheers for this idea!
Nicholas Kennedy
June 2nd 21, 03:31 PM
FWIW
Parowan Ut tow pilot John Templeton owned a Maule. He didn't like it- he said it was difficult to land.
I took a BFR with him in that aircraft and he wouldn't let me even attempt to land it.
Nick
T
Tony[_7_]
June 2nd 21, 04:01 PM
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 10:31:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> FWIW
> Parowan Ut tow pilot John Templeton owned a Maule. He didn't like it- he said it was difficult to land.
> I took a BFR with him in that aircraft and he wouldn't let me even attempt to land it.
> Nick
> T
Interesting BFR concept.
Anyway, I haven't seen the Cherokees mentioned. Hollister has been using 235hp for some time and a 180hp was used successfully by a club in Puerto Rico years ago.
Joseph Guimond Jr
June 2nd 21, 06:39 PM
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 10:31:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> FWIW
> Parowan Ut tow pilot John Templeton owned a Maule. He didn't like it- he said it was difficult to land.
> I took a BFR with him in that aircraft and he wouldn't let me even attempt to land it.
> Nick
> T
I have towed in a Pawnee, L-19, C-182 (straight tail) and a 235 HP Maule. All get the job done from a 2,000 ft grass strip. The Maule is NOT difficult to fly or land, and I have quite a few hours in IFR conditions in a 180 HP Maule. In my opinion it is not the best tow plane since it has relatively short wings, and is close coupled in all directions. Performance is more than adequate, but pilot work load is higher than the other tow planes.
The Pawnee (PA-25 235 and 260 HP) is an ideal tow plane. It is EASY to fly and has great performance. Availability and TP training are the biggest issues. The L-19 is my all-time favorite to fly. It is a joy in the air, and we use it to train new TPs. Cost, parts availability and age are the big issues along with limited performance in hot weather (90+ F) from a short grass strip.
Tow aircraft are going to be a real issue in the years to come!
Skip
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 1:40:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 10:31:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > FWIW
> > Parowan Ut tow pilot John Templeton owned a Maule. He didn't like it- he said it was difficult to land.
> > I took a BFR with him in that aircraft and he wouldn't let me even attempt to land it.
> > Nick
> > T
> I have towed in a Pawnee, L-19, C-182 (straight tail) and a 235 HP Maule. All get the job done from a 2,000 ft grass strip. The Maule is NOT difficult to fly or land, and I have quite a few hours in IFR conditions in a 180 HP Maule. In my opinion it is not the best tow plane since it has relatively short wings, and is close coupled in all directions. Performance is more than adequate, but pilot work load is higher than the other tow planes.
>
> The Pawnee (PA-25 235 and 260 HP) is an ideal tow plane. It is EASY to fly and has great performance. Availability and TP training are the biggest issues. The L-19 is my all-time favorite to fly. It is a joy in the air, and we use it to train new TPs. Cost, parts availability and age are the big issues along with limited performance in hot weather (90+ F) from a short grass strip.
>
> Tow aircraft are going to be a real issue in the years to come!
>
> Skip
The tow plane issue is becoming a bigger issue that ever before, cost and availability are the two main factors. Forget the Maule, we tried that back in the seventies, didn't work then and wont work well now. In the 180 hp category the Pawnee and the Super Cub are probably the best options. Moving up in HP the Pawnee and the straight tail 182 are very good tow planes. The Pawnee is becoming harder to find and more expensive to maintain, I think even much more than the 182. The Husky 180 hp is not bad, much like a Super Cub, but doesn't fly as well. The Callair does a good job of towing but they are becoming hard to find as well.
I guess I will keep the Pawnee flying as long as possible, or else the only option would be to buy one of those useless motor gliders. The Purist, Old Bob
Phoenix
June 3rd 21, 01:52 PM
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 10:31:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> FWIW
> Parowan Ut tow pilot John Templeton owned a Maule. He didn't like it- he said it was difficult to land.
> I took a BFR with him in that aircraft and he wouldn't let me even attempt to land it.
> Nick
> T
I had two 235 Maules. I didn't think they were difficult to land, either. However on both, the rivets inboard inboard on both wings on the upper surface "ovaled" from the stress / vibration due to full power climbs.
PGS S.
June 3rd 21, 07:40 PM
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 2:37:37 PM UTC-4, jackson...com wrote:
> My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
>
> Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
>
> thanks for any feedback!
I've towed with Citabria, Scout, Maule, Luscombe with 150hp, C-150-150, C-182, Pawnee (235 and 265), and an L-19. Citabria was OK, but under powered. Scout was good. Maule visibility is scary when towing. Luscombe wanted to swap ends when landing. C-150-150 was Ok but still a little weak. C-182 had overheating issues. Pawnees are easy to land, 235 has fixed pitch so less maintenance and operating expense than the 265, wing fuel reduces pilot fatigue compared to center tank on bumpy days. L-19 is an absolute pleasure to fly and tows well, but it's expensive to operate and becoming difficult to get parts. No perfect tow ship, all have pros and cons.
Roy B.
June 3rd 21, 09:16 PM
On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 2:40:37 PM UTC-4, PGS S. wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 2:37:37 PM UTC-4, jackson...com wrote:
> > My glider club is looking into the possibility of a new or upgraded tow plane. We currently have a 160hp supercub, but we have also looked into a rare-as-hens-teeth piper pawnee. As i poke around barnstormers and trade a plane, i have seen ads for a 190hp vans RV-6, a maule 235, a stinson 200+ hp, motorgliders, cessna 188, etc.
> >
> > Anyone out there have some ideas for a tow plane that might be very functional but also (perhaps) not well known? Ive seen stories on stinson's maule's and wilga's being used in the past, for example, but it would be good to hear of some currently used "unusual" towplanes.
> >
> > thanks for any feedback!
> I've towed with Citabria, Scout, Maule, Luscombe with 150hp, C-150-150, C-182, Pawnee (235 and 265), and an L-19. Citabria was OK, but under powered.. Scout was good. Maule visibility is scary when towing. Luscombe wanted to swap ends when landing. C-150-150 was Ok but still a little weak. C-182 had overheating issues. Pawnees are easy to land, 235 has fixed pitch so less maintenance and operating expense than the 265, wing fuel reduces pilot fatigue compared to center tank on bumpy days. L-19 is an absolute pleasure to fly and tows well, but it's expensive to operate and becoming difficult to get parts. No perfect tow ship, all have pros and cons.
Roy B.
June 3rd 21, 09:19 PM
No perfect tow ship, all have pros and cons.
Probably also good to consider noise issues if sensitive neighbors are a concern. All of the CS props are noisy as heck -
especially the 260 hp Pawnee and the Callair when either has a CS prop.
Roy
Dan Marotta
June 3rd 21, 11:35 PM
Not so noisy if the pilot would only reduce propeller RPM after
achieving a safe climb.Â* I was the only tuggie at Moriarty who did
that.Â* The others make ear shattering noise as they over fly the
hangars.Â* They still have full propeller RPM after release.Â* Some people
never learn...
Dan
5J
On 6/3/21 2:19 PM, Roy B. wrote:
> No perfect tow ship, all have pros and cons.
>
> Probably also good to consider noise issues if sensitive neighbors are a concern. All of the CS props are noisy as heck -
> especially the 260 hp Pawnee and the Callair when either has a CS prop.
> Roy
On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 6:35:29 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Not so noisy if the pilot would only reduce propeller RPM after
> achieving a safe climb. I was the only tuggie at Moriarty who did
> that. The others make ear shattering noise as they over fly the
> hangars. They still have full propeller RPM after release. Some people
> never learn...
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 6/3/21 2:19 PM, Roy B. wrote:
> > No perfect tow ship, all have pros and cons.
> >
> > Probably also good to consider noise issues if sensitive neighbors are a concern. All of the CS props are noisy as heck -
> > especially the 260 hp Pawnee and the Callair when either has a CS prop.
> > Roy
Just remember, Duct Tape is not a fix for stupidity! Had a guy here at my strip that had a Cessna 185 with a constant speed prop. Every time that idiot took off he rattled the windows, he never learned, finally moved away. There is a perfect tow ship, one that you don't own and can get a tow whenever you want.
On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 4:35:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 6:35:29 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Not so noisy if the pilot would only reduce propeller RPM after
> > achieving a safe climb. I was the only tuggie at Moriarty who did
> > that. The others make ear shattering noise as they over fly the
> > hangars. They still have full propeller RPM after release. Some people
> > never learn...
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> > On 6/3/21 2:19 PM, Roy B. wrote:
> > > No perfect tow ship, all have pros and cons.
> > >
> > > Probably also good to consider noise issues if sensitive neighbors are a concern. All of the CS props are noisy as heck -
> > > especially the 260 hp Pawnee and the Callair when either has a CS prop.
> > > Roy
> Just remember, Duct Tape is not a fix for stupidity! Had a guy here at my strip that had a Cessna 185 with a constant speed prop. Every time that idiot took off he rattled the windows, he never learned, finally moved away. There is a perfect tow ship, one that you don't own and can get a tow whenever you want.
What about the Pipistrel Virus?
https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/cruising/virus-sw-121/#tab-id-3
Tom
Charles Longley
June 5th 21, 03:29 AM
On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 6:11:38 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 4:35:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 6:35:29 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Not so noisy if the pilot would only reduce propeller RPM after
> > > achieving a safe climb. I was the only tuggie at Moriarty who did
> > > that. The others make ear shattering noise as they over fly the
> > > hangars. They still have full propeller RPM after release. Some people
> > > never learn...
> > >
> > > Dan
> > > 5J
> > > On 6/3/21 2:19 PM, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > No perfect tow ship, all have pros and cons.
> > > >
> > > > Probably also good to consider noise issues if sensitive neighbors are a concern. All of the CS props are noisy as heck -
> > > > especially the 260 hp Pawnee and the Callair when either has a CS prop.
> > > > Roy
> > Just remember, Duct Tape is not a fix for stupidity! Had a guy here at my strip that had a Cessna 185 with a constant speed prop. Every time that idiot took off he rattled the windows, he never learned, finally moved away.. There is a perfect tow ship, one that you don't own and can get a tow whenever you want.
> What about the Pipistrel Virus?
> https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/cruising/virus-sw-121/#tab-id-3
> Tom
I don’t think it’s legal to tow in the US with one.
AS
bumper[_4_]
June 5th 21, 03:12 PM
On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 6:11:38 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> What about the Pipistrel Virus?
> https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/cruising/virus-sw-121/#tab-id-3
> Tom
With 100 hp, and no turbo, it'll be a long, slow slog at higher altitude airports.
Surprised no one has mentioned the Husky. With 180 hp, I've towed single place out of Minden no problem, a 2 place with "full size" pilots is doable but unimpressive compared to the Pawnee. I've only done that once to rescue a friend's land-out.
bumper
w
On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 7:12:32 AM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 6:11:38 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > What about the Pipistrel Virus?
> > https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/cruising/virus-sw-121/#tab-id-3
> > Tom
> With 100 hp, and no turbo, it'll be a long, slow slog at higher altitude airports.
>
> Surprised no one has mentioned the Husky. With 180 hp, I've towed single place out of Minden no problem, a 2 place with "full size" pilots is doable but unimpressive compared to the Pawnee. I've only done that once to rescue a friend's land-out.
>
> bumper
A lot of airports in the US are near sea level - only the western US high deserts have high altitude airports.
Tom
On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 6:20:02 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 7:12:32 AM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
> > On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 6:11:38 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > What about the Pipistrel Virus?
> > > https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/cruising/virus-sw-121/#tab-id-3
> > > Tom
> > With 100 hp, and no turbo, it'll be a long, slow slog at higher altitude airports.
> >
> > Surprised no one has mentioned the Husky. With 180 hp, I've towed single place out of Minden no problem, a 2 place with "full size" pilots is doable but unimpressive compared to the Pawnee. I've only done that once to rescue a friend's land-out.
> >
> > bumper
> A lot of airports in the US are near sea level - only the western US high deserts have high altitude airports.
>
> Tom
Also, horsepower doesn't tell the whole story. What matters is the excess horsepower available to lift the glider. The Virus is much lighter than other traditional towplanes, so more of its horsepower is available for this purpose. Likewise, wing efficiency comes into play as well. A more efficient wing means less drag for the towplane. Here is an actual side-by-side comparison:
https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/virus-sw121-was-a-towplane-at-the-junior-world-gliding-championship/
Tom
On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 7:01:59 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 6:20:02 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 7:12:32 AM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
> > > On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 6:11:38 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > What about the Pipistrel Virus?
> > > > https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/cruising/virus-sw-121/#tab-id-3
> > > > Tom
> > > With 100 hp, and no turbo, it'll be a long, slow slog at higher altitude airports.
> > >
> > > Surprised no one has mentioned the Husky. With 180 hp, I've towed single place out of Minden no problem, a 2 place with "full size" pilots is doable but unimpressive compared to the Pawnee. I've only done that once to rescue a friend's land-out.
> > >
> > > bumper
> > A lot of airports in the US are near sea level - only the western US high deserts have high altitude airports.
> >
> > Tom
> Also, horsepower doesn't tell the whole story. What matters is the excess horsepower available to lift the glider. The Virus is much lighter than other traditional towplanes, so more of its horsepower is available for this purpose. Likewise, wing efficiency comes into play as well. A more efficient wing means less drag for the towplane. Here is an actual side-by-side comparison:
> https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/virus-sw121-was-a-towplane-at-the-junior-world-gliding-championship/
>
> Tom
Another factor is cost. I estimate that in the US the Virus can save around $8.25 per tow in fuel costs. For a club that does 250 tows per year that is $2,000, more if you count retrieves.
You also can find more towpilots that don't have a taildragger endorsement.
Tom
Dan Marotta
June 6th 21, 07:51 PM
Real men fly tail draggers!
Oh, what I really meant was, at least for high altitudes, I wouldn't tow
behind a 100 hp tug.Â* My gut tells me that the pawnee 260 has more
excess horse power than the Virus and, as a former owner of a Sinus,
basically the same airplane but with a longer wing (and a tail wheel),
and a former tuggie with a lot of tows in several tow Planes, I think
the Pawnee out climbed the Sinus.
Gotta agree with the cost angle, however, but mine was Experimental and,
without looking at the regs, I'd bet that it could not be used for
commercial tows,Â* I vote for winches.
Dan
5J
On 6/5/21 8:27 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 7:01:59 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>> On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 6:20:02 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>>> On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 7:12:32 AM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
>>>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 6:11:38 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>>>>> What about the Pipistrel Virus?
>>>>> https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/cruising/virus-sw-121/#tab-id-3
>>>>> Tom
>>>> With 100 hp, and no turbo, it'll be a long, slow slog at higher altitude airports.
>>>>
>>>> Surprised no one has mentioned the Husky. With 180 hp, I've towed single place out of Minden no problem, a 2 place with "full size" pilots is doable but unimpressive compared to the Pawnee. I've only done that once to rescue a friend's land-out.
>>>>
>>>> bumper
>>> A lot of airports in the US are near sea level - only the western US high deserts have high altitude airports.
>>>
>>> Tom
>> Also, horsepower doesn't tell the whole story. What matters is the excess horsepower available to lift the glider. The Virus is much lighter than other traditional towplanes, so more of its horsepower is available for this purpose. Likewise, wing efficiency comes into play as well. A more efficient wing means less drag for the towplane. Here is an actual side-by-side comparison:
>> https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/virus-sw121-was-a-towplane-at-the-junior-world-gliding-championship/
>>
>> Tom
> Another factor is cost. I estimate that in the US the Virus can save around $8.25 per tow in fuel costs. For a club that does 250 tows per year that is $2,000, more if you count retrieves.
>
> You also can find more towpilots that don't have a taildragger endorsement.
>
> Tom
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:51:18 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Real men fly tail draggers!
>
> Oh, what I really meant was, at least for high altitudes, I wouldn't tow
> behind a 100 hp tug. My gut tells me that the pawnee 260 has more
> excess horse power than the Virus and, as a former owner of a Sinus,
> basically the same airplane but with a longer wing (and a tail wheel),
> and a former tuggie with a lot of tows in several tow Planes, I think
> the Pawnee out climbed the Sinus.
>
> Gotta agree with the cost angle, however, but mine was Experimental and,
> without looking at the regs, I'd bet that it could not be used for
> commercial tows, I vote for winches.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 6/5/21 8:27 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 7:01:59 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> >> On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 6:20:02 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 7:12:32 AM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
> >>>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 6:11:38 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> >>>>> What about the Pipistrel Virus?
> >>>>> https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/cruising/virus-sw-121/#tab-id-3
> >>>>> Tom
> >>>> With 100 hp, and no turbo, it'll be a long, slow slog at higher altitude airports.
> >>>>
> >>>> Surprised no one has mentioned the Husky. With 180 hp, I've towed single place out of Minden no problem, a 2 place with "full size" pilots is doable but unimpressive compared to the Pawnee. I've only done that once to rescue a friend's land-out.
> >>>>
> >>>> bumper
> >>> A lot of airports in the US are near sea level - only the western US high deserts have high altitude airports.
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >> Also, horsepower doesn't tell the whole story. What matters is the excess horsepower available to lift the glider. The Virus is much lighter than other traditional towplanes, so more of its horsepower is available for this purpose. Likewise, wing efficiency comes into play as well. A more efficient wing means less drag for the towplane. Here is an actual side-by-side comparison:
> >> https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/virus-sw121-was-a-towplane-at-the-junior-world-gliding-championship/
> >>
> >> Tom
> > Another factor is cost. I estimate that in the US the Virus can save around $8.25 per tow in fuel costs. For a club that does 250 tows per year that is $2,000, more if you count retrieves.
> >
> > You also can find more towpilots that don't have a taildragger endorsement.
> >
> > Tom
I think the article that I posted a link to indicated that the traditional towplanes did have a faster climb rate than the Virus, but not that much faster. And the original poster indicated that Pawnees are difficult to find.
Tom
RV 6 Driver
June 7th 21, 06:36 PM
I would scour the Earth to find a suitable Pawnee before I would accept a substitute tow plane. The club in which I belong too operates 2 of them. We also have a 180HP Super Cub. I have towed behind other tow planes in other locations which always left me unimpressed. Pawnees are still out there. Lots of them are still farm fresh though. In my opinion they should be stripped and the ferrous items evaluated and epoxy primered. Those chemicals that the spayers use are extremely caustic.
The real issue is......what’s your budget? You can spend $50-60K on a “working” Pawnee, then another 70-80K having it restored to make a good tow plane. Then you will have roughly $125K in a great tow plane that could fetch you $90K should you choose to sell it.
Other than these financial pit falls, I feel the Pawnee is the best tow plane by far. Extremely durable, great visibility, relatively easy to get parts (though sometimes you have to get them from Argentina—-which is painful). Very easy to fly. And there are enough of us out there maintaining these things that the knowledge base is still really strong.
Are 2 pawnees have been completely gone through, epoxy coated and new Ceconite covered. I wouldn’t consider parting with them as long as we are pulling gliders around. Once you get a good one you will keep it as long as your club is operating. Good Luck!
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 10:36:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> I would scour the Earth to find a suitable Pawnee before I would accept a substitute tow plane. The club in which I belong too operates 2 of them. We also have a 180HP Super Cub. I have towed behind other tow planes in other locations which always left me unimpressed. Pawnees are still out there. Lots of them are still farm fresh though. In my opinion they should be stripped and the ferrous items evaluated and epoxy primered. Those chemicals that the spayers use are extremely caustic.
> The real issue is......what’s your budget? You can spend $50-60K on a “working” Pawnee, then another 70-80K having it restored to make a good tow plane. Then you will have roughly $125K in a great tow plane that could fetch you $90K should you choose to sell it.
> Other than these financial pit falls, I feel the Pawnee is the best tow plane by far. Extremely durable, great visibility, relatively easy to get parts (though sometimes you have to get them from Argentina—-which is painful). Very easy to fly. And there are enough of us out there maintaining these things that the knowledge base is still really strong.
> Are 2 pawnees have been completely gone through, epoxy coated and new Ceconite covered. I wouldn’t consider parting with them as long as we are pulling gliders around. Once you get a good one you will keep it as long as your club is operating. Good Luck!
The original poster was/is looking for alternatives to Pawnees, so I assume that he already knows about the merits/demerits of Pawnees.
Tom
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 8:34:01 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 10:36:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > I would scour the Earth to find a suitable Pawnee before I would accept a substitute tow plane. The club in which I belong too operates 2 of them. We also have a 180HP Super Cub. I have towed behind other tow planes in other locations which always left me unimpressed. Pawnees are still out there.. Lots of them are still farm fresh though. In my opinion they should be stripped and the ferrous items evaluated and epoxy primered. Those chemicals that the spayers use are extremely caustic.
> > The real issue is......what’s your budget? You can spend $50-60K on a “working” Pawnee, then another 70-80K having it restored to make a good tow plane. Then you will have roughly $125K in a great tow plane that could fetch you $90K should you choose to sell it.
> > Other than these financial pit falls, I feel the Pawnee is the best tow plane by far. Extremely durable, great visibility, relatively easy to get parts (though sometimes you have to get them from Argentina—-which is painful). Very easy to fly. And there are enough of us out there maintaining these things that the knowledge base is still really strong.
> > Are 2 pawnees have been completely gone through, epoxy coated and new Ceconite covered. I wouldn’t consider parting with them as long as we are pulling gliders around. Once you get a good one you will keep it as long as your club is operating. Good Luck!
> The original poster was/is looking for alternatives to Pawnees, so I assume that he already knows about the merits/demerits of Pawnees.
>
> Tom
Andy, the more you post the confirmation of my opinion of you goes to a higher bar. Here you are a motorglider guy trying to tell the purist community that a 100 hp Rotax is a good alternative for a towplane. Please bring one of those pimp mobiles to Florida so that I may tie it to the tow line at the end of my Pawnee and drag it through the sky. The Purist, Old Bob
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 2:52:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 8:34:01 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 10:36:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > I would scour the Earth to find a suitable Pawnee before I would accept a substitute tow plane. The club in which I belong too operates 2 of them. We also have a 180HP Super Cub. I have towed behind other tow planes in other locations which always left me unimpressed. Pawnees are still out there. Lots of them are still farm fresh though. In my opinion they should be stripped and the ferrous items evaluated and epoxy primered. Those chemicals that the spayers use are extremely caustic.
> > > The real issue is......what’s your budget? You can spend $50-60K on a “working” Pawnee, then another 70-80K having it restored to make a good tow plane. Then you will have roughly $125K in a great tow plane that could fetch you $90K should you choose to sell it.
> > > Other than these financial pit falls, I feel the Pawnee is the best tow plane by far. Extremely durable, great visibility, relatively easy to get parts (though sometimes you have to get them from Argentina—-which is painful). Very easy to fly. And there are enough of us out there maintaining these things that the knowledge base is still really strong.
> > > Are 2 pawnees have been completely gone through, epoxy coated and new Ceconite covered. I wouldn’t consider parting with them as long as we are pulling gliders around. Once you get a good one you will keep it as long as your club is operating. Good Luck!
> > The original poster was/is looking for alternatives to Pawnees, so I assume that he already knows about the merits/demerits of Pawnees.
> >
> > Tom
> Andy, the more you post the confirmation of my opinion of you goes to a higher bar. Here you are a motorglider guy trying to tell the purist community that a 100 hp Rotax is a good alternative for a towplane. Please bring one of those pimp mobiles to Florida so that I may tie it to the tow line at the end of my Pawnee and drag it through the sky. The Purist, Old Bob
Racist comments are unwelcome on RAS, Bobby.
Ross[_3_]
June 11th 21, 11:31 PM
If you want a cool tow plane, not cheap, but way cool, try one of these :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X0YqA8byOg
Walt Connelly
June 12th 21, 01:08 PM
;1044492']If you want a cool tow plane, not cheap, but way cool, try one of these :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X0YqA8byOg
Wow, only about 1.5 to 2 million and you're off to the races, if you can find a helicopter pilot crazy enough to do this. That being said and having hung out with helicopter pilots for the last few years I can tell you that there are many crazy enough to do it. Insurance company is going to have a fit though, boxing the wake would be very interesting. Low tow is the way to go here but as a former Pawnee tow pilot with 7000 tows and currently flying helicopters myself I can see a lot of potential for problems. 1. Each tow would probably cost 500 to 750 dollars and that would eliminate discussion of all other problems. IF Mihai wants to buy a Hughs 500 I'd be willing to give it a try, NOT.
Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Tony[_7_]
June 12th 21, 08:33 PM
On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> 'Ross[_3_ Wrote:
> > ;1044492']If you want a cool tow plane, not cheap, but way cool, try one
> > of these :)
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X0YqA8byOg
> Wow, only about 1.5 to 2 million and you're off to the races, if you can
> find a helicopter pilot crazy enough to do this. That being said and
> having hung out with helicopter pilots for the last few years I can tell
> you that there are many crazy enough to do it. Insurance company is
> going to have a fit though, boxing the wake would be very interesting.
> Low tow is the way to go here but as a former Pawnee tow pilot with
> 7000 tows and currently flying helicopters myself I can see a lot of
> potential for problems. 1. Each tow would probably cost 500 to 750
> dollars and that would eliminate discussion of all other problems. IF
> Mihai wants to buy a Hughs 500 I'd be willing to give it a try, NOT.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former tow pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Hey Walt, wishing you well. Didn't know if you 9 seen this eye-opening video, glad I did: https://youtu.be/b-XMaLKl4c4
On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> 'Ross[_3_ Wrote:
> > ;1044492']If you want a cool tow plane, not cheap, but way cool, try one
> > of these :)
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X0YqA8byOg
> Wow, only about 1.5 to 2 million and you're off to the races, if you can
> find a helicopter pilot crazy enough to do this. That being said and
> having hung out with helicopter pilots for the last few years I can tell
> you that there are many crazy enough to do it. Insurance company is
> going to have a fit though, boxing the wake would be very interesting.
> Low tow is the way to go here but as a former Pawnee tow pilot with
> 7000 tows and currently flying helicopters myself I can see a lot of
> potential for problems. 1. Each tow would probably cost 500 to 750
> dollars and that would eliminate discussion of all other problems. IF
> Mihai wants to buy a Hughs 500 I'd be willing to give it a try, NOT.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former tow pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
There is a Bolkow 105 here at my place that would do the job!
Walt Connelly
June 13th 21, 01:18 PM
On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
'Ross[_3_ Wrote:
;1044492']If you want a cool tow plane, not cheap, but way cool, try one
of these :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X0YqA8byOg
Wow, only about 1.5 to 2 million and you're off to the races, if you can
find a helicopter pilot crazy enough to do this. That being said and
having hung out with helicopter pilots for the last few years I can tell
you that there are many crazy enough to do it. Insurance company is
going to have a fit though, boxing the wake would be very interesting.
Low tow is the way to go here but as a former Pawnee tow pilot with
7000 tows and currently flying helicopters myself I can see a lot of
potential for problems. 1. Each tow would probably cost 500 to 750
dollars and that would eliminate discussion of all other problems. IF
Mihai wants to buy a Hughs 500 I'd be willing to give it a try, NOT.
Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
--
Walt Connelly
There is a Bolkow 105 here at my place that would do the job!
Yo Bob, I stopped by your place late Yesterday (Saturday) afternoon. Had to drop off some things for my brother in Vero to store for me, got struck by lightning Friday the 4th, blew a hole in my living room and started a fire in a bedroom. I didn't hear well before this, hear even worse now, loudest explosion I've heard since Vietnam but being inside the house amplified it quite a bit. Saw that SCHWEIZER hook on the tail end of your Pawnee. ??????? At least you have a big, stout and easily accessible release handle, looks like the mechanical advantage should be there. Word of advice to all, get your loss of use insurance up high, glad I did, I have 93K dollars to pay for lodging, food, etc while my place is being repair, probably 4 months I understand, maybe more.
Walt
On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 8:43:27 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> ;1044506 Wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:-
> > 'Ross[_3_ Wrote: -
> > ;1044492']If you want a cool tow plane, not cheap, but way cool, try
> > one
> > of these :)
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X0YqA8byOg-
> > Wow, only about 1.5 to 2 million and you're off to the races, if you
> > can
> > find a helicopter pilot crazy enough to do this. That being said and
> > having hung out with helicopter pilots for the last few years I can
> > tell
> > you that there are many crazy enough to do it. Insurance company is
> > going to have a fit though, boxing the wake would be very interesting.
> >
> > Low tow is the way to go here but as a former Pawnee tow pilot with
> > 7000 tows and currently flying helicopters myself I can see a lot of
> > potential for problems. 1. Each tow would probably cost 500 to 750
> > dollars and that would eliminate discussion of all other problems. IF
> > Mihai wants to buy a Hughs 500 I'd be willing to give it a try, NOT.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former tow pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Walt Connelly-
> > There is a Bolkow 105 here at my place that would do the job!
> Yo Bob, I stopped by your place late Yesterday (Saturday) afternoon.
> Had to drop off some things for my brother in Vero to store for me, got
> struck by lightning Friday the 4th, blew a hole in my living room and
> started a fire in a bedroom. I didn't hear well before this, hear even
> worse now, loudest explosion I've heard since Vietnam but being inside
> the house amplified it quite a bit. Saw that SCHWEIZER hook on the tail
> end of your Pawnee. ??????? At least you have a big, stout and easily
> accessible release handle, looks like the mechanical advantage should be
> there. Word of advice to all, get your loss of use insurance up high,
> glad I did, I have 93K dollars to pay for lodging, food, etc while my
> place is being repair, probably 4 months I understand, maybe more.
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Walt, sorry I missed you, that was not a Schweizer but a Pacific Aero hook, much better than the Schweizer. I am awaiting a bit of opportunity to install the TOST, still have it in the box. That Pawnee, AKA as the Towpecker is very stout! Come on back and see us soon, spend the day and hop in the Towpecker, you will be very satisfied. Bob
Walt Connelly
June 14th 21, 01:13 PM
On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 8:43:27 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
;1044506 Wrote:
On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:-
'Ross[_3_ Wrote: -
;1044492']If you want a cool tow plane, not cheap, but way cool, try
one
of these :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X0YqA8byOg-
Wow, only about 1.5 to 2 million and you're off to the races, if you
can
find a helicopter pilot crazy enough to do this. That being said and
having hung out with helicopter pilots for the last few years I can
tell
you that there are many crazy enough to do it. Insurance company is
going to have a fit though, boxing the wake would be very interesting.
Low tow is the way to go here but as a former Pawnee tow pilot with
7000 tows and currently flying helicopters myself I can see a lot of
potential for problems. 1. Each tow would probably cost 500 to 750
dollars and that would eliminate discussion of all other problems. IF
Mihai wants to buy a Hughs 500 I'd be willing to give it a try, NOT.
Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
--
Walt Connelly-
There is a Bolkow 105 here at my place that would do the job!
Yo Bob, I stopped by your place late Yesterday (Saturday) afternoon.
Had to drop off some things for my brother in Vero to store for me, got
struck by lightning Friday the 4th, blew a hole in my living room and
started a fire in a bedroom. I didn't hear well before this, hear even
worse now, loudest explosion I've heard since Vietnam but being inside
the house amplified it quite a bit. Saw that SCHWEIZER hook on the tail
end of your Pawnee. ??????? At least you have a big, stout and easily
accessible release handle, looks like the mechanical advantage should be
there. Word of advice to all, get your loss of use insurance up high,
glad I did, I have 93K dollars to pay for lodging, food, etc while my
place is being repair, probably 4 months I understand, maybe more.
Walt
--
Walt Connelly
Walt, sorry I missed you, that was not a Schweizer but a Pacific Aero hook, much better than the Schweizer. I am awaiting a bit of opportunity to install the TOST, still have it in the box. That Pawnee, AKA as the Towpecker is very stout! Come on back and see us soon, spend the day and hop in the Towpecker, you will be very satisfied. Bob
Bob, I stand corrected but it is the same design which I might assume could fail under the most dire of conditions. Put on the TOST and I'll come down and be a volunteer tow pilot. (maybe!!) I'm in the process of having major repairs made to my house post lightning strike and fire. I need to look into a lightning arrestor and fireproof carpet, ha ha.
Walt
On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 8:43:13 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> ;1044532 Wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 8:43:27 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:-
> > ;1044506 Wrote: -
> > On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:-
> >
> > 'Ross[_3_ Wrote: -
> > ;1044492']If you want a cool tow plane, not cheap, but way cool, try
> > one
> > of these :)
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X0YqA8byOg-
> > Wow, only about 1.5 to 2 million and you're off to the races, if you
> > can
> > find a helicopter pilot crazy enough to do this. That being said and
> > having hung out with helicopter pilots for the last few years I can
> > tell
> > you that there are many crazy enough to do it. Insurance company is
> > going to have a fit though, boxing the wake would be very interesting.
> >
> >
> > Low tow is the way to go here but as a former Pawnee tow pilot with
> > 7000 tows and currently flying helicopters myself I can see a lot of
> > potential for problems. 1. Each tow would probably cost 500 to 750
> > dollars and that would eliminate discussion of all other problems. IF
> >
> > Mihai wants to buy a Hughs 500 I'd be willing to give it a try, NOT.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former tow pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Walt Connelly-
> > There is a Bolkow 105 here at my place that would do the job!-
> > Yo Bob, I stopped by your place late Yesterday (Saturday) afternoon.
> > Had to drop off some things for my brother in Vero to store for me, got
> >
> > struck by lightning Friday the 4th, blew a hole in my living room and
> > started a fire in a bedroom. I didn't hear well before this, hear even
> >
> > worse now, loudest explosion I've heard since Vietnam but being inside
> >
> > the house amplified it quite a bit. Saw that SCHWEIZER hook on the tail
> >
> > end of your Pawnee. ??????? At least you have a big, stout and easily
> > accessible release handle, looks like the mechanical advantage should
> > be
> > there. Word of advice to all, get your loss of use insurance up high,
> > glad I did, I have 93K dollars to pay for lodging, food, etc while my
> > place is being repair, probably 4 months I understand, maybe more.
> >
> > Walt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Walt Connelly-
> > Walt, sorry I missed you, that was not a Schweizer but a Pacific Aero
> > hook, much better than the Schweizer. I am awaiting a bit of opportunity
> > to install the TOST, still have it in the box. That Pawnee, AKA as the
> > Towpecker is very stout! Come on back and see us soon, spend the day and
> > hop in the Towpecker, you will be very satisfied. Bob
> Bob, I stand corrected but it is the same design which I might assume
> could fail under the most dire of conditions. Put on the TOST and I'll
> come down and be a volunteer tow pilot. (maybe!!) I'm in the process of
> having major repairs made to my house post lightning strike and fire. I
> need to look into a lightning arrestor and fireproof carpet, ha ha.
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Walt, I understand the house fire completely, in 2004 after two major hurricanes back to back we were without power for 28 days. after returning home the power was re-connected and guess what, the house caught on fire. My string of luck just wasn't going in my direction. Take care and come on down, you will really like the Towpecker. Bob
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.