Piper pilots! Need Warrior Help!

[Dave]

Hi All!

OK... Piper Warrior...PA28-151

Considering purchase...

It's is a 1976 Model..

Specs, (published) say stall, dirty ( Full Flaps ) for a 1976
built is 58 knts.

....1977 and later is 44 knts!

WHAT changes were made to bring the stall speed down by 14
knts!

I have looked at both, I cannot (untrained eye) see what is
different..

Owner of the '76 says 52 knts(w/flaps) , 58 knts "clean"
(????)

Tis a huge difference... is this correct? Why? Can the 76 be
modified to get the stall speed lower?

Can any one help here?

What is the story?

Thanks in advance!

Dave

[Jay Honeck]

> OK... Piper Warrior...PA28-151

Good bird -- I owned a '75 from '98 - '02.

> Specs, (published) say stall, dirty ( Full Flaps ) for a 1976
> built is 58 knts.
>
> ...1977 and later is 44 knts!

Where in the world did you get THAT figure?

Here are the actual Warrior specs:

Warrior
1974-1977

Performance:
(Knots, nautical miles in parentheses)

Top Speed (Sea Level) 135 (117)
Cruise: 133 (115)
Best Rate of Climb: 91 (79)
Stall Speed (with flaps) 58 (50)

Fuel Consumption (75% power): 8.5 gph
Range (75% at 7,000 ft.) 720 (626)
Takeoff over 50' obstacle: 1,760 feet
Ground run: 1,065 feet
Landing over 50' obstacle: 1,115 feet
Ground run: 595 feet
Rate of climb (Sea Level): 649 feet
Service Ceiling: 12,700 feet

Specifications
Fuel capacity: 50 gallons
Engine: Lycoming 0-320-E3D
TBO: 2,000 hours
Power: 150 hp

Wing Span: 35 ft 0 in
Wing Area: 170 sq ft
Length: 23 ft 9 in
Height: 7 ft 4 in
Wing Loading: 13.7 lb/sq ft
Power Loading: 15.5 lb/hp

Gross Weight: 2,325 lbs
Empty Weight: 1,301 lbs
Useful Load: 1,024 lbs
Baggage Capacity: 200 lbs

The Warrior is a great plane. It's forgiving, it's tough, it burns car
gas at just 8 gph (or less!), it'll haul four people if you go light on
fuel, and it's easy to land.

(That useful load figure in the stats, above, is highly suspect, IMHO.
Plan on closer to 900 lbs.)

If you're not in a big hurry, and you don't need to haul a ton, the
Warrior is the perfect plane.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Avation Destination"

[OtisWinslow]

Make sure it's apples to apples. One could be indicated
and one calibrated airspeed.


"Dave" > wrote in message
...
> Hi All!
>
> OK... Piper Warrior...PA28-151
>
> Considering purchase...
>
> It's is a 1976 Model..
>
> Specs, (published) say stall, dirty ( Full Flaps ) for a 1976
> built is 58 knts.
>
> ...1977 and later is 44 knts!
>
> WHAT changes were made to bring the stall speed down by 14
> knts!
>
> I have looked at both, I cannot (untrained eye) see what is
> different..
>
> Owner of the '76 says 52 knts(w/flaps) , 58 knts "clean"
> (????)
>
> Tis a huge difference... is this correct? Why? Can the 76 be
> modified to get the stall speed lower?
>
> Can any one help here?
>
> What is the story?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dave

[Dave]

Hi Jay!

Figured you would be out there!

(yeah, the 172 may be gone, I will send a new pic for the
gallery if this happens)

I got this 44 kns off of 3 websites with Warrior specs ...

Your numbers SPAN the "break" in my specs at 1976/7...(?)

TY 4 UR help on this...


>
>The Warrior is a great plane. It's forgiving, it's tough, it burns car
>gas at just 8 gph (or less!), it'll haul four people if you go light on
>fuel, and it's easy to land.
>
>(That useful load figure in the stats, above, is highly suspect, IMHO.
>Plan on closer to 900 lbs.)
>
>If you're not in a big hurry, and you don't need to haul a ton, the
>Warrior is the perfect plane.

We are not, and don't need to! :)

I have early time in a 161, loved it!

Cheers!

Dave

[Dave]

Hmmm... thought of that Otis, but a 30% spread? (44 - 58)

?

Dave





On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:11:08 GMT, "OtisWinslow"
> wrote:

>Make sure it's apples to apples. One could be indicated
>and one calibrated airspeed.
>
>
>"Dave" > wrote in message
...
>> Hi All!
>>
>> OK... Piper Warrior...PA28-151
>>
>> Considering purchase...
>>
>> It's is a 1976 Model..
>>
>> Specs, (published) say stall, dirty ( Full Flaps ) for a 1976
>> built is 58 knts.
>>
>> ...1977 and later is 44 knts!
>>
>> WHAT changes were made to bring the stall speed down by 14
>> knts!
>>
>> I have looked at both, I cannot (untrained eye) see what is
>> different..
>>
>> Owner of the '76 says 52 knts(w/flaps) , 58 knts "clean"
>> (????)
>>
>> Tis a huge difference... is this correct? Why? Can the 76 be
>> modified to get the stall speed lower?
>>
>> Can any one help here?
>>
>> What is the story?
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Dave
>

[Bob Gardner]

My Aircraft Bluebook Price Digest, under Specs, shows a PA28-151 Warrior
with a stall speed of 44 and a note saying "Prior 77 stall = 58" with no
further explanation. Lists both 76 and 77 with a 150 hp engine. Aviation
Consumer's Used Aircraft Guide shows that the 77 got a 10hp boost...owners
of the 150hp version complained of poor climb performance. Can't quite
figure out how ten more horses would affect power-off stall speed. To
further confuse the issue, Motorbooks International's Piper Buyer's Guide
says that Piper went to 160hp in 1975 and doesn't discuss stall speed at
all.

I was instructing full-time at a Piper operation during the time period when
the 140 turned into a 151 and can't recall anything about the Warrior that I
didn't like. Pretty bulletproof in my opinion.

There are mods available that affect stall speed, like aileron gap seals,
but their effect wouldn't show up in the pubs I have, which deal in
unmodified airframes.

Bob Gardner




"Dave" > wrote in message
...
> Hi All!
>
> OK... Piper Warrior...PA28-151
>
> Considering purchase...
>
> It's is a 1976 Model..
>
> Specs, (published) say stall, dirty ( Full Flaps ) for a 1976
> built is 58 knts.
>
> ...1977 and later is 44 knts!
>
> WHAT changes were made to bring the stall speed down by 14
> knts!
>
> I have looked at both, I cannot (untrained eye) see what is
> different..
>
> Owner of the '76 says 52 knts(w/flaps) , 58 knts "clean"
> (????)
>
> Tis a huge difference... is this correct? Why? Can the 76 be
> modified to get the stall speed lower?
>
> Can any one help here?
>
> What is the story?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dave

[Icebound]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> OK... Piper Warrior...PA28-151
>
> Good bird -- I owned a '75 from '98 - '02.
>
>> Specs, (published) say stall, dirty ( Full Flaps ) for a 1976
>> built is 58 knts.
>>
>> ...1977 and later is 44 knts!
>
> Where in the world did you get THAT figure?
>
> Here are the actual Warrior specs:
>
> Warrior
> 1974-1977
>
> Performance:
> (Knots, nautical miles in parentheses)
>
> Top Speed (Sea Level) 135 (117)


I assume that you are saying STATUTE MILES PER HOUR outside of parentheses,
and knots IN parenthesis, right?

[Dave]

Look here Jay..

http://www.pilotfriend.com/Piper%20aircraft.htm

and
http://www.premi-air.co.nz/singlespecs.asp?Model=Piper+PA-28-151

Dave




On 3 Jun 2005 15:00:37 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>> OK... Piper Warrior...PA28-151
>
>Good bird -- I owned a '75 from '98 - '02.
>
>> Specs, (published) say stall, dirty ( Full Flaps ) for a 1976
>> built is 58 knts.

[Dave]

The plot thickens! :(

I mn finding the same. (note links posted above) from several sources.

This 14 knts had to come from SOMEWHERE...

TY!

Dave



On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:21:52 -0700, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>My Aircraft Bluebook Price Digest, under Specs, shows a PA28-151 Warrior
>with a stall speed of 44 and a note saying "Prior 77 stall = 58" with no
>further explanation. Lists both 76 and 77 with a 150 hp engine. Aviation
>Consumer's Used Aircraft Guide shows that the 77 got a 10hp boost...owners
>of the 150hp version complained of poor climb performance. Can't quite
>figure out how ten more horses would affect power-off stall speed. To
>further confuse the issue, Motorbooks International's Piper Buyer's Guide
>says that Piper went to 160hp in 1975 and doesn't discuss stall speed at
>all.
>
>I was instructing full-time at a Piper operation during the time period when
>the 140 turned into a 151 and can't recall anything about the Warrior that I
>didn't like. Pretty bulletproof in my opinion.
>
>There are mods available that affect stall speed, like aileron gap seals,
>but their effect wouldn't show up in the pubs I have, which deal in
>unmodified airframes.
>
>Bob Gardner
>
>
>
>
>"Dave" > wrote in message
...
>> Hi All!
>>
>> OK... Piper Warrior...PA28-151
>>
>> Considering purchase...
>>
>> It's is a 1976 Model..
>>
>> Specs, (published) say stall, dirty ( Full Flaps ) for a 1976
>> built is 58 knts.
>>
>> ...1977 and later is 44 knts!
>>
>> WHAT changes were made to bring the stall speed down by 14
>> knts!
>>
>> I have looked at both, I cannot (untrained eye) see what is
>> different..
>>
>> Owner of the '76 says 52 knts(w/flaps) , 58 knts "clean"
>> (????)
>>
>> Tis a huge difference... is this correct? Why? Can the 76 be
>> modified to get the stall speed lower?
>>
>> Can any one help here?
>>
>> What is the story?
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Dave
>

[John Galban]

Dave wrote:
> The plot thickens! :(
>
> I mn finding the same. (note links posted above) from several sources.
>
> This 14 knts had to come from SOMEWHERE...
>

I'm thinking that "Prior 77 stall = 58" might have come from the
point where Piper shifted from using MPH to Knots for their performance
figures. 58 mph is right where the dirty stall should be on most 150 -
180 hp PA28s. Where the "44" came from is anybody's guess. 58 mph
converted to knots is around 50-51 kts. Perhaps the missing 6 kts
might come from a measurement in indicated airspeed rather than
calibrated airspeed.

One thing I can tell you is that they all stall at around the same
speed. There were no drastic changes that changed the stall
characteristics from '76 to 77.

If you're seriously considering buying one, this is not something you
should spend a lot of time worrying about.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Stubby]

John Galban wrote:

>
> Dave wrote:
>
>>The plot thickens! :(
>>
>>I mn finding the same. (note links posted above) from several sources.
>>
>> This 14 knts had to come from SOMEWHERE...
>>
>
>
> I'm thinking that "Prior 77 stall = 58" might have come from the
> point where Piper shifted from using MPH to Knots for their performance
> figures. 58 mph is right where the dirty stall should be on most 150 -
> 180 hp PA28s. Where the "44" came from is anybody's guess. 58 mph
> converted to knots is around 50-51 kts. Perhaps the missing 6 kts
> might come from a measurement in indicated airspeed rather than
> calibrated airspeed.
>
> One thing I can tell you is that they all stall at around the same
> speed. There were no drastic changes that changed the stall
> characteristics from '76 to 77.
>
> If you're seriously considering buying one, this is not something you
> should spend a lot of time worrying about.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>
The stall speed is 44 kts. Speed on final should be 1.3 times that:
44*1.3 = 57.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Dave wrote:
> Hi All!
>
> OK... Piper Warrior...PA28-151
>
> Considering purchase...
>
> It's is a 1976 Model..
>
> Specs, (published) say stall, dirty ( Full Flaps ) for a 1976
> built is 58 knts.


Knots or MPH? I was once accused by a very inexperienced flight instructor of
flying too fast on an engine out approach in a Lance because the airspeed
indicator was in MPH instead of knots. I flew the proper speed for MPH. He'd
apparently never flown an airplane with its airspeed indicator showing anything
but knots.

58 knots seems pretty hot for a dirty stall speed.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Dave]

I agree... not worried at all... :)

I just could not come to terms with the numbers, 1 yr apart..

Here are two of the sources that got me wondering..

Look here ..

http://www.pilotfriend.com/Piper%20aircraft.htm

and
http://www.premi-air.co.nz/singlespecs.asp?Model=Piper+PA-28-151

All #'s are in knts....

Dave



On 3 Jun 2005 16:48:18 -0700, "John Galban" >
wrote:

>
>
>Dave wrote:
>> The plot thickens! :(
>>
>> I mn finding the same. (note links posted above) from several sources.
>>
>> This 14 knts had to come from SOMEWHERE...
>>
>
> I'm thinking that "Prior 77 stall = 58" might have come from the
>point where Piper shifted from using MPH to Knots for their performance
>figures. 58 mph is right where the dirty stall should be on most 150 -
>180 hp PA28s. Where the "44" came from is anybody's guess. 58 mph
>converted to knots is around 50-51 kts. Perhaps the missing 6 kts
>might come from a measurement in indicated airspeed rather than
>calibrated airspeed.
>
> One thing I can tell you is that they all stall at around the same
>speed. There were no drastic changes that changed the stall
>characteristics from '76 to 77.
>
> If you're seriously considering buying one, this is not something you
>should spend a lot of time worrying about.
>
>John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Chris]

"Dave" > wrote in message
...
> Hi All!
>
> OK... Piper Warrior...PA28-151
>
> Considering purchase...
>
> It's is a 1976 Model..
>
> Specs, (published) say stall, dirty ( Full Flaps ) for a 1976
> built is 58 knts.
>
> ...1977 and later is 44 knts!
>
> WHAT changes were made to bring the stall speed down by 14
> knts!
>
> I have looked at both, I cannot (untrained eye) see what is
> different..
>
> Owner of the '76 says 52 knts(w/flaps) , 58 knts "clean"
> (????)
>
> Tis a huge difference... is this correct? Why? Can the 76 be
> modified to get the stall speed lower?
>
> Can any one help here?
>
> What is the story?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dave

The earlier 151s have frise ailerons as opposed to the cheaper piano hinges
on the later ones. Give much smoother handling. with the piano hinged
ailerons the aileron it self has ridges to try and retain the airflow over
the ailerons.

[Jay Honeck]

> The earlier 151s have frise ailerons as opposed to the cheaper piano
> hinges on the later ones. Give much smoother handling. with the piano
> hinged ailerons the aileron it self has ridges to try and retain the
> airflow over the ailerons.

No offense, and maybe I'm just an insensitive clod at the controls, but I've
got over 800 hours in Cherokees of all flavors, my '75 had the Frise
ailerons -- and to say that the piano hinge versions provide "much smoother
handling" just ain't true.

In fact, the handling differences are so slight as to be inconsequential.
(Which, of course, is why Piper switched back to the easier-to-build piano
hinged versions...) If I were blindfolded and told to fly either version,
there is no way I would be able to tell you which is which in flight. (On
the ground they DO feel different, IMO -- but who cares on the ground?)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Chris]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:cOhoe.17175$nG6.3465@attbi_s22...
>> The earlier 151s have frise ailerons as opposed to the cheaper piano
>> hinges on the later ones. Give much smoother handling. with the piano
>> hinged ailerons the aileron it self has ridges to try and retain the
>> airflow over the ailerons.
>
> No offense, and maybe I'm just an insensitive clod at the controls, but
> I've got over 800 hours in Cherokees of all flavors, my '75 had the Frise
> ailerons -- and to say that the piano hinge versions provide "much
> smoother handling" just ain't true.
>
> In fact, the handling differences are so slight as to be inconsequential.
> (Which, of course, is why Piper switched back to the easier-to-build piano
> hinged versions...) If I were blindfolded and told to fly either
> version, there is no way I would be able to tell you which is which in
> flight. (On the ground they DO feel different, IMO -- but who cares on
> the ground?)

I did not say the piano hinge ailerons were smoother than the frise, quite
the contrary but I would say the do feel different in the air and that's my
experience.

[Rolf Blom]

On 2005-06-03 23:43, Dave wrote:
> Hi All!
>
> OK... Piper Warrior...PA28-151
>
> Considering purchase...
>
> It's is a 1976 Model..
>
> Specs, (published) say stall, dirty ( Full Flaps ) for a 1976
> built is 58 knts.
>
> ...1977 and later is 44 knts!
>
> WHAT changes were made to bring the stall speed down by 14
> knts!
>
> I have looked at both, I cannot (untrained eye) see what is
> different..
>
> Owner of the '76 says 52 knts(w/flaps) , 58 knts "clean"
> (????)
>
> Tis a huge difference... is this correct? Why? Can the 76 be
> modified to get the stall speed lower?
>
> Can any one help here?
>
> What is the story?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dave

I haven't gone beyond a websearch, so I can't verify this,
but there may be a reason in the wing profile change around that time.

According to a paragraph in:
http://www.whittsflying.com/Page5.66Piper.htm

quote<

When Piper went from the Hershey-bar wing to the tapered wing there was
a dramatic shift in the critical approach airspeed. The short wing
required that the pilot never allow the approach speed get slow. Arrive
in ground effect too slow and you would fall right through it. Result
was numerous fuel leaks since tanks were adjacent to landing gear. The
tapered wing gave the opposite problem. Any approach speed that was
slightly fast would cause excessive float. Short runways were the scenes
of numerous overruns.

>end quote

This was said to have happened in -78, so maybe it's unrelated.

Otherwise I understood that:
Short wing (Hershey-bar) = model# ends in 0
Long wing= model# ends in 1

Maybe your -76 151 still has a short wing? confusing.


/Rolf

[Rolf Blom]

On 2005-06-07 17:19, Rolf Blom wrote:
-snip-

never mind; I see it was solved in a later post.

/Rolf