Garmin 430/530 and WAAS: Delayed again?

[Andrew Gideon]

I've been surprised to read nothing here about the new delay for WAAS on the
430/530s. Perhaps it's not new to everyone else?

It was supposed to be available this summer. It's not. It's now projected
for third quarter of 2006. However, one must order before some time this
year to lock in the $1500 price point.

Anyone here with more details or information?

Thanks...

Andrew

[[email protected]]

On 3-Jun-2005, Andrew Gideon > wrote:

> Anyone here with more details or information?



See
http://www.aopa.org/members/050602garmin.html

--
-Elliott Drucker

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

As said before, Garmin shafts the existing customers by promising
(salesman's mouth open) things to keep folks from buying Avidyne. I've
bought my last Garmin product.

{|;-(

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.

VOsborne2 at charter dot net
> On 3-Jun-2005, Andrew Gideon > wrote:
>
>> Anyone here with more details or information?
> See
> http://www.aopa.org/members/050602garmin.html
>
> --
> -Elliott Drucker

[Javier Henderson]

"Victor J. Osborne, Jr." > writes:

> As said before, Garmin shafts the existing customers by promising
> (salesman's mouth open) things to keep folks from buying Avidyne. I've
> bought my last Garmin product.

They're turning into the Microsoft of aviation.

Unfortunately, the competition is way behind. How many KLN94's are
being sold these days?

-jav

[kontiki]

Personally, I'll stick with my GPSMAP 196 and my KX-155. When the price
of WAAS approach capable GPS units comes down to earth I may consider
buying one.

In the meantime, I can do a heck of a lot of flying for 10+ grand.

[Ron Natalie]

Victor J. Osborne, Jr. wrote:
> As said before, Garmin shafts the existing customers by promising
> (salesman's mouth open) things to keep folks from buying Avidyne.

Well since the 430 (or even the 530) doesn't compete against avidyne
I don't understand wy it is an issue. The G1000 competes against
Avidyne, but they won't sell that to end users. The MX20/GNS480
competes against avidyne (sort of) but it has WAAS.

[Thomas Borchert]

Ron,

> Well since the 430 (or even the 530) doesn't compete against avidyne
> I don't understand wy it is an issue.
>

Not all posts on usenet are understandable...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[[email protected]]

Why is it taking forever?

Probably because it can.

Bill Hale

[Mike Rapoport]

I suspect that there are a lot of reasons including:

Certification issues
Availible engineering resources
Slow implementation of LPV approaches by FAA

There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and upgrading
them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are just
sitting on their hands.

Mike
MU-2


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Why is it taking forever?
>
> Probably because it can.
>
> Bill Hale
>

[Frank Stutzman]

In rec.aviation.owning Mike Rapoport > wrote:

> There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and upgrading
> them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are just
> sitting on their hands.

But at the $1500 price that Garmin has publically committed to is it that
big of a revenue stream for them? I mean its not chump change for some of
us, but considering what needs to happen to a 430 for this to work (new
software, new processor, new re-certification(?), the overhead of a whole
upgrade program), I'm surpised that Garmin can even break even at that
price.




--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[Javier Henderson]

"Mike Rapoport" > writes:

> I suspect that there are a lot of reasons including:
>
> Certification issues
> Availible engineering resources
> Slow implementation of LPV approaches by FAA
>
> There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and upgrading
> them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are just
> sitting on their hands.

My cynical view is different.

Garmin announced WAAS upgradeability to compete with the CNX80.

Garmin acquired UPSAT, and with it the CNX80, eliminating competition.

WAAS upgrade for the GNS series, you ask... yeah, um...

-jav

[Javier Henderson]

Frank Stutzman > writes:

> In rec.aviation.owning Mike Rapoport > wrote:
>
> > There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and upgrading
> > them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are just
> > sitting on their hands.
>
> But at the $1500 price that Garmin has publically committed to is it that
> big of a revenue stream for them? I mean its not chump change for some of
> us, but considering what needs to happen to a 430 for this to work (new
> software, new processor, new re-certification(?), the overhead of a whole
> upgrade program), I'm surpised that Garmin can even break even at that
> price.

See my cynical view posting of earlier. The ship-by date on this
alleged upgrade has been steadily slipping. Now it's a year away.

<yawn>

Wake me up when the sucker starts shipping.

Oh yeah, bonus points if you can find out how to get on the waiting
list for this alleged upgrade.

-jav

[Mike Rapoport]

"Frank Stutzman" > wrote in message
...
> In rec.aviation.owning Mike Rapoport > wrote:
>
>> There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and upgrading
>> them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are
>> just
>> sitting on their hands.
>
> But at the $1500 price that Garmin has publically committed to is it that
> big of a revenue stream for them? I mean its not chump change for some of
> us, but considering what needs to happen to a 430 for this to work (new
> software, new processor, new re-certification(?), the overhead of a whole
> upgrade program), I'm surpised that Garmin can even break even at that
> price.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Frank Stutzman
> Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
> Hood River, OR
>

Garmin will probably do a little under $200MM this year in total aviation
revenue. When you consider that the potential WAAS upgrade market is about
$90MM and that they will also be able to charge more for 430/530 units that
have WAAS, it is a significant market for them. When and if the FAA
publishes a significant number of LPV approaches, nobody will be able to
sell a non-WAAS box so they have to add the functionality eventually.
Perhaps they know more about how many new approaches the FAA is going to
commission than we do? Why doesn't Honeywell have a WAAS box out?

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Rapoport]

"Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
>
>> I suspect that there are a lot of reasons including:
>>
>> Certification issues
>> Availible engineering resources
>> Slow implementation of LPV approaches by FAA
>>
>> There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and upgrading
>> them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are
>> just
>> sitting on their hands.
>
> My cynical view is different.
>
> Garmin announced WAAS upgradeability to compete with the CNX80.
>
> Garmin acquired UPSAT, and with it the CNX80, eliminating competition.
>
> WAAS upgrade for the GNS series, you ask... yeah, um...
>
> -jav

That makes no sense from their point of view. They make money by coming up
with new things to sell you.

Mike
MU-2

[Javier Henderson]

"Mike Rapoport" > writes:

> "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
> >
> >> I suspect that there are a lot of reasons including:
> >>
> >> Certification issues
> >> Availible engineering resources
> >> Slow implementation of LPV approaches by FAA
> >>
> >> There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and upgrading
> >> them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are
> >> just
> >> sitting on their hands.
> >
> > My cynical view is different.
> >
> > Garmin announced WAAS upgradeability to compete with the CNX80.
> >
> > Garmin acquired UPSAT, and with it the CNX80, eliminating competition.
> >
> > WAAS upgrade for the GNS series, you ask... yeah, um...
> >
> > -jav
>
> That makes no sense from their point of view. They make money by coming up
> with new things to sell you.

Assuming they make money on those $1500 upgrades...

-jav

[Mike Rapoport]

"Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
>
>> "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
>> >
>> >> I suspect that there are a lot of reasons including:
>> >>
>> >> Certification issues
>> >> Availible engineering resources
>> >> Slow implementation of LPV approaches by FAA
>> >>
>> >> There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and
>> >> upgrading
>> >> them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are
>> >> just
>> >> sitting on their hands.
>> >
>> > My cynical view is different.
>> >
>> > Garmin announced WAAS upgradeability to compete with the CNX80.
>> >
>> > Garmin acquired UPSAT, and with it the CNX80, eliminating competition.
>> >
>> > WAAS upgrade for the GNS series, you ask... yeah, um...
>> >
>> > -jav
>>
>> That makes no sense from their point of view. They make money by coming
>> up
>> with new things to sell you.
>
> Assuming they make money on those $1500 upgrades...
>
> -jav

True. I suspect that if you take out the developement costs (which they
would incur anyway), that they will make some (perhaps not much) money.

Mike
MU-2

[Matt Barrow]

"Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
> My cynical view is different.
>
> Garmin announced WAAS upgradeability to compete with the CNX80.
>
> Garmin acquired UPSAT, and with it the CNX80, eliminating competition.
>
> WAAS upgrade for the GNS series, you ask... yeah, um...
>
One of forty-some WAAS enabled products they carry.

http://www.garmin.com/aboutGPS/waas.html

[Matt Barrow]

"Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
>
> > "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
> > >
> >
> > That makes no sense from their point of view. They make money by coming
up
> > with new things to sell you.
>
> Assuming they make money on those $1500 upgrades...
>
Even if they don't (I'm guessing they don't) it's in their long-term
interest to do so.

Only Microsoft and government can do better and better (revenue-wise) the
worse their performance becomes.

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Dan Luke]

"Mike Rapoport" wrote:
> Why doesn't Honeywell have a WAAS box out?

Never mind WAAS, why does Honeywell *still* not have a GPS/NAV/COMM box out?

Answer: Honeywell has its head in in a very dark, warm place.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Roy Page]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
>>
>>> I suspect that there are a lot of reasons including:
>>>
>>> Certification issues
>>> Availible engineering resources
>>> Slow implementation of LPV approaches by FAA
>>>
>>> There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and upgrading
>>> them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are
>>> just
>>> sitting on their hands.
>>
>> My cynical view is different.
>>
>> Garmin announced WAAS upgradeability to compete with the CNX80.
>>
>> Garmin acquired UPSAT, and with it the CNX80, eliminating competition.
>>
>> WAAS upgrade for the GNS series, you ask... yeah, um...
>>
>> -jav
>
> That makes no sense from their point of view. They make money by coming
> up with new things to sell you.
>
> Mike
> MU-2

Yes, I agree that Garmin will make more money by selling something new.
Why bother with upgrading the 430 when the 480 is selling and is so much
better ?
I think they will finish the engineering of the G1000 related stuff and they
will announce a complete new box making 430's and 480's obsolete.
In modern day digital terms, the 430 is yesterday's CPU.
Why bother retrofitting it with a maths co-processor ?

--
Roy
N5804F - On old PA28-181 Piper Archer II with steam gages !

[Javier Henderson]

"Mike Rapoport" > writes:

> "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
> >
> >> "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
> >> >
> >> >> I suspect that there are a lot of reasons including:
> >> >>
> >> >> Certification issues
> >> >> Availible engineering resources
> >> >> Slow implementation of LPV approaches by FAA
> >> >>
> >> >> There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and
> >> >> upgrading
> >> >> them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are
> >> >> just
> >> >> sitting on their hands.
> >> >
> >> > My cynical view is different.
> >> >
> >> > Garmin announced WAAS upgradeability to compete with the CNX80.
> >> >
> >> > Garmin acquired UPSAT, and with it the CNX80, eliminating competition.
> >> >
> >> > WAAS upgrade for the GNS series, you ask... yeah, um...
> >> >
> >>
> >> That makes no sense from their point of view. They make money by coming
> >> up
> >> with new things to sell you.
> >
> > Assuming they make money on those $1500 upgrades...
> >
>
> True. I suspect that if you take out the developement costs (which they
> would incur anyway), that they will make some (perhaps not much) money.

So going back a few years, did Garmin really intend to produce a
WAAS upgrade, or was it vaporware to fend off competition? And since
said competition is gone...

-jav

[Mike Rapoport]

"Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
>
>> "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
>> >
>> >> "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >> I suspect that there are a lot of reasons including:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Certification issues
>> >> >> Availible engineering resources
>> >> >> Slow implementation of LPV approaches by FAA
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and
>> >> >> upgrading
>> >> >> them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they
>> >> >> are
>> >> >> just
>> >> >> sitting on their hands.
>> >> >
>> >> > My cynical view is different.
>> >> >
>> >> > Garmin announced WAAS upgradeability to compete with the CNX80.
>> >> >
>> >> > Garmin acquired UPSAT, and with it the CNX80, eliminating
>> >> > competition.
>> >> >
>> >> > WAAS upgrade for the GNS series, you ask... yeah, um...
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> That makes no sense from their point of view. They make money by
>> >> coming
>> >> up
>> >> with new things to sell you.
>> >
>> > Assuming they make money on those $1500 upgrades...
>> >
>>
>> True. I suspect that if you take out the developement costs (which they
>> would incur anyway), that they will make some (perhaps not much) money.
>
> So going back a few years, did Garmin really intend to produce a
> WAAS upgrade, or was it vaporware to fend off competition? And since
> said competition is gone...
>
> -jav
>

At the time nobody knew what the TSO would look like and what would be
required. I think that it has turned out to be more difficult to meet the
146 standard than anyone would have thought.

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Rapoport]

"Roy Page" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>>
>> "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
>>>
>>>> I suspect that there are a lot of reasons including:
>>>>
>>>> Certification issues
>>>> Availible engineering resources
>>>> Slow implementation of LPV approaches by FAA
>>>>
>>>> There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and
>>>> upgrading
>>>> them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are
>>>> just
>>>> sitting on their hands.
>>>
>>> My cynical view is different.
>>>
>>> Garmin announced WAAS upgradeability to compete with the CNX80.
>>>
>>> Garmin acquired UPSAT, and with it the CNX80, eliminating competition.
>>>
>>> WAAS upgrade for the GNS series, you ask... yeah, um...
>>>
>>> -jav
>>
>> That makes no sense from their point of view. They make money by coming
>> up with new things to sell you.
>>
>> Mike
>> MU-2
>
> Yes, I agree that Garmin will make more money by selling something new.
> Why bother with upgrading the 430 when the 480 is selling and is so much
> better ?
> I think they will finish the engineering of the G1000 related stuff and
> they will announce a complete new box making 430's and 480's obsolete.
> In modern day digital terms, the 430 is yesterday's CPU.
> Why bother retrofitting it with a maths co-processor ?
>
> --
> Roy
> N5804F - On old PA28-181 Piper Archer II with steam gages !
>

When you think about the retrofit market, the form factor and functionality
are pretty much fixed. The box has to be 6.25" wide. It has to have VHF
radio functionality. I needs VOR/LOC/GS. It needs a color screen. It
needs to be able to control (and display) other boxes for
weather/entertainment/traffic ect. So at the end of the day, whatever you
do, it is going to look a lot like a 530.

Todays CPU is a lot like yesterdays CPU, it just runs faster, has more
memory and more bells and whistles.

Mike
MU-2

[Thomas Borchert]

Andrew,

And while we're at it: What about terrain for the 430 and/or the 530?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Roy Page]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Roy Page" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>>
>> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
>> k.net...
>>>
>>> "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Mike Rapoport" > writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I suspect that there are a lot of reasons including:
>>>>>
>>>>> Certification issues
>>>>> Availible engineering resources
>>>>> Slow implementation of LPV approaches by FAA
>>>>>
>>>>> There are many tens of thousands of 430s and 530 installed and
>>>>> upgrading
>>>>> them represents a lot of revenue for Garmin, so I doubt that they are
>>>>> just
>>>>> sitting on their hands.
>>>>
>>>> My cynical view is different.
>>>>
>>>> Garmin announced WAAS upgradeability to compete with the CNX80.
>>>>
>>>> Garmin acquired UPSAT, and with it the CNX80, eliminating competition.
>>>>
>>>> WAAS upgrade for the GNS series, you ask... yeah, um...
>>>>
>>>> -jav
>>>
>>> That makes no sense from their point of view. They make money by coming
>>> up with new things to sell you.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> MU-2
>>
>> Yes, I agree that Garmin will make more money by selling something new.
>> Why bother with upgrading the 430 when the 480 is selling and is so much
>> better ?
>> I think they will finish the engineering of the G1000 related stuff and
>> they will announce a complete new box making 430's and 480's obsolete.
>> In modern day digital terms, the 430 is yesterday's CPU.
>> Why bother retrofitting it with a maths co-processor ?
>>
>> --
>> Roy
>> N5804F - On old PA28-181 Piper Archer II with steam gages !
>>
>
> When you think about the retrofit market, the form factor and
> functionality are pretty much fixed. The box has to be 6.25" wide. It has
> to have VHF radio functionality. I needs VOR/LOC/GS. It needs a color
> screen. It needs to be able to control (and display) other boxes for
> weather/entertainment/traffic ect. So at the end of the day, whatever you
> do, it is going to look a lot like a 530.
>
> Todays CPU is a lot like yesterdays CPU, it just runs faster, has more
> memory and more bells and whistles.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
Yes it will look something like, and take the place of, a 480/430/530.
However, with technical *advances* the marketing boys will present it as
today's CPU, the box we all must have.

--
Roy
N5804F - PA28-181 Piper Archer II with steam gages.

[Ron Natalie]

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> When you think about the retrofit market, the form factor and functionality
> are pretty much fixed. The box has to be 6.25" wide. It has to have VHF
> radio functionality. I needs VOR/LOC/GS. It needs a color screen. It
> needs to be able to control (and display) other boxes for
> weather/entertainment/traffic ect. So at the end of the day, whatever you
> do, it is going to look a lot like a 530.
>
It looks a lot like my 480 does today :-)

I'm getting more an more impressed with this box every hour I fly behind
it. GPS Steering is way cool.

[Andrew Gideon]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> And while we're at it: What about terrain for the 430 and/or the 530?

I thought that certified terrain for the 530, and noncertified for the 430,
were already available. No?

- Andrew

[Thomas Borchert]

Andrew,

> I thought that certified terrain for the 530, and noncertified for the 430,
> were already available. No?
>

Would be news to me.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Andrew Gideon]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Andrew,
>
>> I thought that certified terrain for the 530, and noncertified for the
>> 430,
>> were already available. No?
>>
>
> Would be news to me.
>

http://www.garmin.com/pressroom/aviation/120104.html

discusses certification for the 530. An early announcement of this feature
for both 430 and 530, with a schedule of availability (from Garmin, so keep
that salt grain handy {8^) is at:

http://www.garmin.com/pressroom/aviation/060403.html

The best bet is to call and ask. Let us know what you find, please. I
spoke to someone at Garmin late last year, I believe, when release of
terrain for both was just weeks away. Whether it actually occurred,
though...

- Andrew

[Javier Henderson]

Thomas Borchert > writes:

> Andrew,
>
> > I thought that certified terrain for the 530, and noncertified for the 430,
> > were already available. No?
> >
>
> Would be news to me.

TAWS has been available for the 530 for a bit, actually.

-jav

[Mike Rapoport]

Well here is news for you:

I have certified terrain (TAWS) on my 530.

Mike
MU-2


"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Andrew,
>
>> I thought that certified terrain for the 530, and noncertified for the
>> 430,
>> were already available. No?
>>
>
> Would be news to me.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>

[Thomas Borchert]

Mike and all,

Cool, thanks! I must have missed that. I'll check with Garmin regarding
the 430, which is my primary interest.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Mike Rapoport]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Mike and all,
>
> Cool, thanks! I must have missed that. I'll check with Garmin regarding
> the 430, which is my primary interest.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>

There wasn't room in the 430 to install the certified terrain with all of
its voice annunciation.

Mike
MU-2

[Thomas Borchert]

Mike,

> >
>
> There wasn't room in the 430 to install the certified terrain with all of
> its voice annunciation.
>

I didn't ask for that. Just showing terrain á la Garmin 296 would be enough,
thank you ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Mike Rapoport]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Mike,
>
>> >
>>
>> There wasn't room in the 430 to install the certified terrain with all of
>> its voice annunciation.
>>
>
> I didn't ask for that. Just showing terrain á la Garmin 296 would be
> enough,
> thank you ;-)
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>

It is coming. Since TAWS is required by AD on a lot of aircraft this
March, they focused on certifying it initially. Hopefully terrain for the
430 will be out soon

Mike
MU-2

[Andrew Gideon]

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> It is coming.Â*Â*Â*SinceÂ*TAWSÂ*isÂ*requiredÂ*byÂ*ADÂ*on Â*aÂ*lotÂ*ofÂ*aircraftÂ*this
> March, they focused on certifying it initially.Â*Â*HopefullyÂ*terrainÂ*forÂ*the
> 430 will be out soon

What that nice person at Garmin told me, months ago, was that non-certified
terrain on the 430 was due a month after certified terrain on the 530. I
don't recall the details off hand, but both should have been out by now
according to the schedule at that time (late last year, I believe).

- Andrew

[Mike Rapoport]

They were trying to certify them together but the FAA said no. Our tax
dollars at work.

Mike
MU-2

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
>> It is coming. Since TAWS is required by AD on a lot of aircraft this
>> March, they focused on certifying it initially. Hopefully terrain for the
>> 430 will be out soon
>
> What that nice person at Garmin told me, months ago, was that
> non-certified
> terrain on the 430 was due a month after certified terrain on the 530. I
> don't recall the details off hand, but both should have been out by now
> according to the schedule at that time (late last year, I believe).
>
> - Andrew
>