What was the last stupid thing you did?

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia in a 172 rg whith a full
load and just enogh fuel for the trip.Guess what happend on short final?Good
thing I am up to speed on dead stick.Anyone else have a close call they
learned a valuable lesson from.You know; the one you don't tell you flying
buddies about.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

Got married.

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

I hear ya.
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Got married.
>

[Bob Gardner]

Just enough fuel for the trip? Did that include the 30 minute reserve
required by 91.151? That's not a close call...that's admitting that you are
brain-dead and a hazard to your passengers.

Bob Gardner

"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
>I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia in a 172 rg whith a
>full load and just enogh fuel for the trip.Guess what happend on short
>final?Good thing I am up to speed on dead stick.Anyone else have a close
>call they learned a valuable lesson from.You know; the one you don't tell
>you flying buddies about.
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

Yes actualy I did figure my reserve,I just did not realize that to avoid the
ADIZ I would endup vectored all over the place .I made a mistake yes,I let
my self be destracted by ATC and did not watch my time.My mistake was not
planning my entire flight more carefully and taking in considertion the
congested air space that was flying into.
I have flown the same trip 5 or ten times with the same fuel and aprox wt.I
became complacent and My passengers and I were very fortunate.Sence then I
went to a flight instructor to review my flight planning and to brush up o
other things as well.I wrote this to show that the most experianced and well
trained pilot may become complacent.Even you sir.I hope all can learn from
my mistake.
Yr"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> Just enough fuel for the trip? Did that include the 30 minute reserve
> required by 91.151? That's not a close call...that's admitting that you
> are brain-dead and a hazard to your passengers.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
> news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
>>I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia in a 172 rg whith a
>>full load and just enogh fuel for the trip.Guess what happend on short
>>final?Good thing I am up to speed on dead stick.Anyone else have a close
>>call they learned a valuable lesson from.You know; the one you don't tell
>>you flying buddies about.
>>
>
>

[Gene Seibel]

Today?
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

No, This was last year.I havejust finished my CFI.I am much more proficiant
now.I just wanted to see how many "perfect" aviators were on this site.It
has been a subject of discoution at my office at the airport.How many pilots
do not realize their own faults until it is too late.I am a strong
supporterof the wings program. I knew I would find one.

"Gene Seibel" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Today?
> --
> Gene Seibel
> Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
> Because I fly, I envy no one.
>

[Montblack]

("STEVEN SIMPSON" wrote)
[snip]
> Yes actualy I did figure my reserve,I just did not realize that to avoid
> the ADIZ I would endup vectored all over the place .I made a mistake yes,I
> let my self be destracted by ATC and did not watch my time.My mistake was
> not planning my entire flight more carefully and taking in considertion
> the congested air space that was flying into.


Wonder why there aren't any spaces after the sentences in your posts? Is it
'style' on your part, or is it maybe a format/configuration issue? Curious?


Married is already taken I see.

How about not buying (....coming out of Chapter 11) Kmart stock, in 2003,
......AFTER we had talked about doing just that!!! Oh well.

(Stock chart: 2003 - 2005)
<http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SHLD&t=5y&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=>
Kmart coming out of chapter 11

Now listed as: SEARS HLDGS CORP (SHLD)


Montblack

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

Must be a format issue. I have the corect spacing here.
"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("STEVEN SIMPSON" wrote)
> [snip]
>> Yes actualy I did figure my reserve,I just did not realize that to avoid
>> the ADIZ I would endup vectored all over the place .I made a mistake
>> yes,I
>> let my self be destracted by ATC and did not watch my time.My mistake was
>> not planning my entire flight more carefully and taking in considertion
>> the congested air space that was flying into.
>
>
> Wonder why there aren't any spaces after the sentences in your posts? Is
> it
> 'style' on your part, or is it maybe a format/configuration issue?
> Curious?
>
>
> Married is already taken I see.
>
> How about not buying (....coming out of Chapter 11) Kmart stock, in 2003,
> .....AFTER we had talked about doing just that!!! Oh well.
>
> (Stock chart: 2003 - 2005)
> <http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SHLD&t=5y&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=>
> Kmart coming out of chapter 11
>
> Now listed as: SEARS HLDGS CORP (SHLD)
>
>
> Montblack
>

[[email protected]]

Bob,

Don't you think that's a bit harsh? I mean, that's the thing about
aviation: 1) even smart (non-brain-dead) people sometimes do stupid
things. 2) a stupid thing can kill you.

Personally, I think this is what I worry about as a pilot more than
anything, that I will experience a moment of brain fade, or even,
exercise bad judgement, not habitually, but just once at the wrong
time, and then boom! crash/burn.

Would you say that you have *never* done something in an airplane that
you regretted doing because in hindsight it wasn't wise, and yet, got
away with it? Because, if so, the difference between you and the guy
who did not get away with it has at least something to do with luck.

(By the way, I'm not impugning your piloting judgement. You're Bob
Gardner! ;) I am just drawing a connection to the human fallibility
aspect of being PIC.)

As an aside, as far as I understand, 91.151 is about beginning a
flight, ie, planning. If winds and/or other circumstances unfold
differently, you can legally end up landing with less than 30 minutes
in the tanks.

Of course, it's still stupid.

My $0.02,
-- dave j

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

Thanks,I have to admit.I have made harsh coments about other peoples
judgement in the past.Untill it is you its hard to see the other guy view.
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Bob,
>
> Don't you think that's a bit harsh? I mean, that's the thing about
> aviation: 1) even smart (non-brain-dead) people sometimes do stupid
> things. 2) a stupid thing can kill you.
>
> Personally, I think this is what I worry about as a pilot more than
> anything, that I will experience a moment of brain fade, or even,
> exercise bad judgement, not habitually, but just once at the wrong
> time, and then boom! crash/burn.
>
> Would you say that you have *never* done something in an airplane that
> you regretted doing because in hindsight it wasn't wise, and yet, got
> away with it? Because, if so, the difference between you and the guy
> who did not get away with it has at least something to do with luck.
>
> (By the way, I'm not impugning your piloting judgement. You're Bob
> Gardner! ;) I am just drawing a connection to the human fallibility
> aspect of being PIC.)
>
> As an aside, as far as I understand, 91.151 is about beginning a
> flight, ie, planning. If winds and/or other circumstances unfold
> differently, you can legally end up landing with less than 30 minutes
> in the tanks.
>
> Of course, it's still stupid.
>
> My $0.02,
> -- dave j
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

See.It happens.Bet it will not twice.
> wrote in message
...
> >Anyone else have a close call they
>>learned a valuable lesson from.You know; the one you don't tell you flying
>>buddies about.
>
> Well...we're all buddies here...so I shouldn't tell you, right?
> OK, but I will...
>
> Last Saturday, I took my wife up from BKL, Cleveland (OH) Burke
> Lakefront in a Diamond DA40-180. That was a comedy of errors.
> Beech had set up an exhibition of their new toys, right around the
> DA40, So: we had to push the DA40 back, then it wouldnt push straight,
> so we had to find a towbar. Then we needed oil, which dripped all over
> the engine compartment and exhaust, and I spent 15 minutes diligently
> cleaning up.
>
> Did I mention it was 90+ F? In June? In Cleveland on the lakeshore?
>
> Realizing this, I took things a bit slower, trying to ensure I
> wouldn't miss anything rushing thru the preflight.
>
> Finally got the preflight done and got in...
>
> Start/taxi/takeoff OK...500', throttle full, prop back to 2400 (that's
> what it calls for!) So I start to bring the the prop back...and
> back...and back...and the RPM finally starts down...and the engine
> spits once... oops wrong control, let's try the other one that's
> BLUE. I was even pushing on the friction lock on that red control
> and not realizing. my thumb rests right on it.
>
> Ya know... 500' over Lake Erie is not a good place to kill the
> engine. Being a motorhead, and having adjust many carbs; at the first
> spit, I realized what it was and recovered immediately. My wife never
> even noticed the miss. rest of flight uneventful...
>
> Won't do that again!
> Feel AND verify
>
> ...shame I didnt have time to look at the new King Air and Beechjet on
> display...not that I'll ever afford either one...
>
> --Don
> Don Byrer
> Electronics Technician/Friendly but Sarcastic Pilot
> FAA Airways Facilites/Tech Ops, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
> Amateur Radio KJ5KB
> Instrument Pilot Commercial Student
> PP-ASEL 30 Jan 2005 "-IA" 25 Mar 2005
>

[tony roberts]

30 minutes is not a suggested SOP - it's a minimum!
It's designed to help you put it down somewhere - anywhere!
I appreciate the honesty in your post - but I cannot support the concept
that it is OK to regularly plan landings with a 30 minute minimum -
particularly given the frequency with which airspace is closed or
modified on some politicians whim. A $350.00 per plate dinner can close
the airspace within 50 miles - now where is your 30 minute minimum? You
guys have to live it - I just watch it and shake my head.

Tony
C-GICE

In article >,
"Bob Gardner" > wrote:

> Just enough fuel for the trip? Did that include the 30 minute reserve
> required by 91.151? That's not a close call...that's admitting that you are
> brain-dead and a hazard to your passengers.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
> news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
> >I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia in a 172 rg whith a
> >full load and just enogh fuel for the trip.Guess what happend on short
> >final?Good thing I am up to speed on dead stick.Anyone else have a close
> >call they learned a valuable lesson from.You know; the one you don't tell
> >you flying buddies about.
> >




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:45:41 GMT, "STEVEN SIMPSON"
> wrote:

>See.It happens.Bet it will not twice.

I'd say that's a safe bet...

--Don


Don Byrer
Electronics Technician/Friendly but Sarcastic Pilot
FAA Airways Facilites/Tech Ops, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB
Instrument Pilot Commercial Student
PP-ASEL 30 Jan 2005 "-IA" 25 Mar 2005

[Centurion]

STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:

> I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia in a 172 rg whith a
> full load and just enogh fuel for the trip.Guess what happend on short
> final?Good thing I am up to speed on dead stick.Anyone else have a close
> call they learned a valuable lesson from.You know; the one you don't tell
> you flying buddies about.

Yesterday I was flying the jump plane (parachute operation) and managed to
get the cuff of my sleeve tangled up on the pitch control of a C206 when
attempting to adjust the mixture (WTF?!?). Pitch went to full fine
(2850RPM) at which point I over-corrected an sent it back to 2000RPM :-/
Hmmm. Bit embarrassing considering I have over 1500hrs in C210's!!

Further back in my flying career, I overloaded a C172 and nearly wen splat
when it wouldn't climb after take-off.

A few years after that I spun a C210 from FL120 to A020....at night....in
IMC after falling asleep...without an autopilot. During the incipient spin
all the freight shifted aft and sent the CoG out the back....I ran out of
forward trim on descent at my next landing point and could only get one
stage of flap out before I ran out of trim in the approach. Once I shut
down and climbed out, the poor thing sat on its tail. I do NOT want to be
a test pilot again.

I stopped flying single-engine night freight (in piston-powered aircraft
anyway) after that, and started flying Grand Caravans and B55/58's instead.

Stupid enough? There's more, but I don't want to detail the "stupid coz
it's illegal" things I've done to avoid getting the sack from employers who
expect their pilots to break the rules...we've all been there.

Cheers,

James
--
There is no sin but ignorance.
-- Christopher Marlowe

[Gene Seibel]

I meant, do you mean the last stuipid thing I did today? ;) Anyway,
I've done plenty. I did what you did, but landed off airport. 3
minutes makes a big difference. That was 14 years ago, and my attitude
about fuel was changed drastically. I hope your experience made as big
an impression on you.
A close call can make you safer, or it can make you bolder - and
everyone knows there are no old, bold pilots.
http://pad39a.com/gene/breathe.html
--
Gene Seibel
Confessions of a Pilot - http://pad39a.com/publishing/
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Dave Butler]

STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:
> Yes actualy I did figure my reserve,I just did not realize that to avoid the
> ADIZ I would endup vectored all over the place .I made a mistake yes,I let

There's an ADIZ at Tri-Cities airport?
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTRI

<snip>

>>
>>"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
>>news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
>>
>>>I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia

<snip>

[[email protected]]

We just had a thread here called "confessions" about 2 months ago, I
think. It's got several such stories, including one from me.

[Skylune]

The last stupid thing I did was sign up at a local flight school at FRG.
Waste of money to determine that weekend piloting is only for fools, and
that any idiot can get a private pilot certificate. The flight schools
will take anyone's money, and claim that flying is safe.

Glad to see this string has confirmed my decision to leave flying to the
pros: that is the commercial airline pilots.

[Skylune]

I forgot, the next stupid thing i did was fly out of ISP with a friend of
mine who introduced me to this wonderful sport. He got disoriented over
the Long Island sound, and then couldn't work the GPS. I had to do it for
him. He considers himself a safe, and experienced, pilot.

[George Patterson]

STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:
> You know; the one you don't tell you flying
> buddies about.

If I'm not willing to tell my flying buddies about it, what makes you think I'd
be willing to post it for the rest of the world to see?

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

No, But there is around D.C. between me and jersy.
"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1118757384.848887@sj-nntpcache-3...
> STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:
>> Yes actualy I did figure my reserve,I just did not realize that to avoid
>> the ADIZ I would endup vectored all over the place .I made a mistake
>> yes,I let
>
> There's an ADIZ at Tri-Cities airport?
> http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTRI
>
> <snip>
>
>>>
>>>"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
>>>news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
>>>
>>>>I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia
>
> <snip>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

My flight planning and fuel management skills are top notch and will
remain so. Once saftey becoms habbit.You still check again.
"Gene Seibel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I meant, do you mean the last stuipid thing I did today? ;) Anyway,
> I've done plenty. I did what you did, but landed off airport. 3
> minutes makes a big difference. That was 14 years ago, and my attitude
> about fuel was changed drastically. I hope your experience made as big
> an impression on you.
> A close call can make you safer, or it can make you bolder - and
> everyone knows there are no old, bold pilots.
> http://pad39a.com/gene/breathe.html
> --
> Gene Seibel
> Confessions of a Pilot - http://pad39a.com/publishing/
> Because I fly, I envy no one.
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

I am a comercial pilot now. I teach and fly a J3100 for Ats.We all have to
learn.Some pilots learn and benifitfrom close calls .Some just go home.
Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> The last stupid thing I did was sign up at a local flight school at FRG.
> Waste of money to determine that weekend piloting is only for fools, and
> that any idiot can get a private pilot certificate. The flight schools
> will take anyone's money, and claim that flying is safe.
>
> Glad to see this string has confirmed my decision to leave flying to the
> pros: that is the commercial airline pilots.
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

Sorry I missed it.I think if we share our mistakes others may learn. I have
never lost a planeor a passenger.I have had mechanical failures.This one was
all me.The one you can prevent is the one you need to think about.
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> We just had a thread here called "confessions" about 2 months ago, I
> think. It's got several such stories, including one from me.
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

So, if you hate GA pilots why are you even particapating?.We are here to be
constructive.go surf porn or something.
"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
>I forgot, the next stupid thing i did was fly out of ISP with a friend of
> mine who introduced me to this wonderful sport. He got disoriented over
> the Long Island sound, and then couldn't work the GPS. I had to do it for
> him. He considers himself a safe, and experienced, pilot.
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

Well hey.some times you have to let your balls drop and face your weaknesess
to become stronger.
"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:PkGre.8134$Nx1.4143@trndny05...
> STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:
>> You know; the one you don't tell you flying buddies about.
>
> If I'm not willing to tell my flying buddies about it, what makes you
> think I'd be willing to post it for the rest of the world to see?
>
> George Patterson
> Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
> and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
> Because she smells like a new truck.

[Skylune]

You actually teach the J3100? You pilots never cease to amaze me. The
skill!

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

I have a teen age son.That sounds like one of his cute little come backs.
"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> You actually teach the J3100? You pilots never cease to amaze me. The
> skill!
>

[Skylune]

Please. I don't mean to offend professional, well trained pilots. My
problem is with the knuckleheads who spend the $4000 bucks and take the 21
day flight training school, and then wreak havoc. I quickly realized
(about 15 hours in the little C-150) you CANNOT on a part-time basis
become skilled enough to be safe. Since I can't train regularly, I
thought the smart move was to leave it to the pros, such as yourself. But
those stupid flight schools are so desperate for cash they will try to
convince anyone that they can BECOME A PILOT! How totally irresponsible.
I could care less if these people want to kill themselves, but they are
endangering others....including more experienced pilots.

I have a good friend who is a GA pilot (even though he can't figure out
how to use his new GPS), and he is waaaaaaaaay overconfident. I just
hope I don't read about him in the NTSB stats page one day....

later.

I have no quarell with professional pilots such as yourself. Its the
weekend idiots who are buzzing peoples homes and wreaking havoc on the
ground that I have a beef with.

[george]

Quit flying

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

Ok.I will give you that.Most plesure pilots are fairly inexperianced.However
like any thing else;it depends on the indevidual where saftey is concerned.
I would not let my wife near one.Ha,Ha,.

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> Please. I don't mean to offend professional, well trained pilots. My
> problem is with the knuckleheads who spend the $4000 bucks and take the 21
> day flight training school, and then wreak havoc. I quickly realized
> (about 15 hours in the little C-150) you CANNOT on a part-time basis
> become skilled enough to be safe. Since I can't train regularly, I
> thought the smart move was to leave it to the pros, such as yourself. But
> those stupid flight schools are so desperate for cash they will try to
> convince anyone that they can BECOME A PILOT! How totally irresponsible.
> I could care less if these people want to kill themselves, but they are
> endangering others....including more experienced pilots.
>
> I have a good friend who is a GA pilot (even though he can't figure out
> how to use his new GPS), and he is waaaaaaaaay overconfident. I just
> hope I don't read about him in the NTSB stats page one day....
>
> later.
>
> I have no quarell with professional pilots such as yourself. Its the
> weekend idiots who are buzzing peoples homes and wreaking havoc on the
> ground that I have a beef with.
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

Why.I am safer now . And much more skilled.Ok Gorge Ill Quit.
"george" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Quit flying
>

[Dave Butler]

STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:
> No, But there is around D.C. between me and jersy.

Jersy? Would that be New Jersey? Why are you going from central Virginia to
eastern Tennessee by way of New Jersey?

> "Dave Butler" > wrote in message
> news:1118757384.848887@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
>>STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:
>>
>>>Yes actualy I did figure my reserve,I just did not realize that to avoid
>>>the ADIZ I would endup vectored all over the place .I made a mistake
>>>yes,I let
>>
>>There's an ADIZ at Tri-Cities airport?
>>http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTRI
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
>>>>news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia
>>
>><snip>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

LYH to CHO to Patomac VOR aka Victor 16 to TRI City Air port.I never
mentioned Tenn.The ADIZ is around Washington D.C.
"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1118783814.138717@sj-nntpcache-3...
> STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:
>> No, But there is around D.C. between me and jersy.
>
> Jersy? Would that be New Jersey? Why are you going from central Virginia
> to eastern Tennessee by way of New Jersey?
>
>> "Dave Butler" > wrote in message
>> news:1118757384.848887@sj-nntpcache-3...
>>
>>>STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:
>>>
>>>>Yes actualy I did figure my reserve,I just did not realize that to avoid
>>>>the ADIZ I would endup vectored all over the place .I made a mistake
>>>>yes,I let
>>>
>>>There's an ADIZ at Tri-Cities airport?
>>>http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTRI
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
>>>>>news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia
>>>
>>><snip>

[Gene Seibel]

Mine have improved too. It's easy to figure we've got a reserve and
forget about it. That's fine if we always stop when we get to the
reserve. To use the reserve for what it's there for, requires some
skill and attention.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

[W P Dixon]

Flying up to TRI from central Virginia is a very very longgggg trip ! ;)
Might be easier next time to fly south ( down). ;) Takes alot less fuel that
way!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


>>>
>>>>>"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
>>>>>news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia
>>>
>>><snip>

[George Patterson]

STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:
> LYH to CHO to Patomac VOR aka Victor 16 to TRI City Air port.I never
> mentioned Tenn.

Yes, you did. TRI is Bristol, Tennessee. In over 15 years of flying around New
Jersey, I've never heard of a tricities airport in the State. What's the
official name and ID?

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Jose]

> Flying up to TRI from central Virginia is a very very longgggg trip ! ;) Might be easier next time to fly south ( down). ;) Takes alot less fuel that way!

Well, I don't know about that. Isn't TRI further from the center of the
earth than central Virginia? The earth being banana shaped, and all?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain."
(chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

Ok .I am an ass.I ment Tedaboro.
"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> Flying up to TRI from central Virginia is a very very longgggg trip ! ;)
> Might be easier next time to fly south ( down). ;) Takes alot less fuel
> that way!
>
> Patrick
> student SPL
> aircraft structural mech
>
>
>>>>
>>>>>>"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
>>>>>>news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

Sorry,I ment Tedaboro. I just got back from Tri .My bad.
Now coment on the lesson;quit picken brat.

> STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:
>> LYH to CHO to Patomac VOR aka Victor 16 to TRI City Air port.I never
>> mentioned Tenn.
>
> Yes, you did. TRI is Bristol, Tennessee. In over 15 years of flying around
> New Jersey, I've never heard of a tricities airport in the State. What's
> the official name and ID?
>
> George Patterson
> Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
> and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
> Because she smells like a new truck.

[[email protected]]

> I quickly realized
> (about 15 hours in the little C-150) you CANNOT on a part-time basis
> become skilled enough to be safe.

Most people on this newsgroup are part-time pilots. Even those that
are commercial pilots tend to be part-time around here. There are
plenty of ways to fly part time yet still be a safe pilot.


> I have a good friend who is a GA pilot (even though he can't figure out
> how to use his new GPS),

People have been flying airplanes for decades before GPS was invented.
Knowing how to operate a GPS doesn't make a pilot safe, and likewise,
not knowing how to operate a GPS doesn't make a pilot unsafe.
Most of the aircraft I fly don't even have a GPS.

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

I agree.Charles L. did not have a GPS
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I quickly realized
>> (about 15 hours in the little C-150) you CANNOT on a part-time basis
>> become skilled enough to be safe.
>
> Most people on this newsgroup are part-time pilots. Even those that
> are commercial pilots tend to be part-time around here. There are
> plenty of ways to fly part time yet still be a safe pilot.
>
>
>> I have a good friend who is a GA pilot (even though he can't figure out
>> how to use his new GPS),
>
> People have been flying airplanes for decades before GPS was invented.
> Knowing how to operate a GPS doesn't make a pilot safe, and likewise,
> not knowing how to operate a GPS doesn't make a pilot unsafe.
> Most of the aircraft I fly don't even have a GPS.
>

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

Sad thing is, many can't respond to LAST stupid thing they did. It cost
them their life. That's why I read the accident reports, Aviation Safety,
go to the meetings, attend BPPP and try to remind myself "I COULD do that!"
instead of "I'd never do that!"

FWIW, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.

VOsborne2 at charter dot net
"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...

>Anyone else have a close call they learned a valuable lesson from.You know;
>the one you don't tell you flying buddies about.

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

Good man!

"Victor J. Osborne, Jr." > wrote in message
...
> Sad thing is, many can't respond to LAST stupid thing they did. It cost
> them their life. That's why I read the accident reports, Aviation Safety,
> go to the meetings, attend BPPP and try to remind myself "I COULD do
> that!" instead of "I'd never do that!"
>
> FWIW, {|;-)
>
> Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.
>
> VOsborne2 at charter dot net
> "STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
> news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
>
>>Anyone else have a close call they learned a valuable lesson from.You
>>know; the one you don't tell you flying buddies about.
>
>

[Matt Barrow]

"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message...


Fell asleep at the controls for about a hour and woke up about ten minutes
before I would have hit high terrain in the Colorado Rockies.

[Morgans]

"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote

I wrote this to show that the most experianced and well
> trained pilot may become complacent.Even you sir.I hope all can learn from
> my mistake.

Un-fricking-believeable. Put it off on everyone/someone else.

A *smart* pilot would have found the first place to set down and get some
more fuel, when the air time said the reserve was going to be cut into. The
reserve is to be still be in the tanks when you land, not to be used to get
where you wanted to go, because of headwinds, or vectors, or ....

It is amazing what opportunities open up to you, when you declare a (fuel)
emergency. Airports that you could not ordinarily get in to, will put you
first, straight in, if necessary.

Good on you, for getting some refresher on planning. Bad on you, for ever
letting your margins get that close.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Montblack" > wrote

> Wonder why there aren't any spaces after the sentences in your posts? Is
it
> 'style' on your part, or is it maybe a format/configuration issue?
Curious?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

He was in a hurry, to not waste any time or distance, so he could get down
without any reserves left. <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
news:9xIre.3910$yw4.3456@trnddc09...
> Sorry,I ment Tedaboro. I just got back from Tri .My bad.
> Now coment on the lesson;quit picken brat.

Hmm, my bet is that "this one" will soon be in a bunch of kill files. Any
takers?
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
news:_3Hre.8306$2K4.7888@trnddc08...
> I have a teen age son.That sounds like one of his cute little come backs.

Anyone any closer yet? *My* finger is hovering.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
news:0wGre.18601$gL4.15259@trnddc07...
> My flight planning and fuel management skills are top notch and will
> remain so. Once saftey becoms habbit.You still check again.

Why don't you check again, on your posts, by proofreading them before you
hit the "send" button?
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

> wrote

> ...shame I didnt have time to look at the new King Air and Beechjet on
> display...not that I'll ever afford either one...

Yeah, but I almost never miss an opportunity to drool. <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
news:9aure.10732$lb5.7850@trnddc04...
> See.It happens.Bet it will not twice.

That isn't even in the same category as yours, IMHO.

Don't pass an opportunity to try to make yourself look better.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
news:3HGre.18609$gL4.17639@trnddc07...
> So, if you hate GA pilots why are you even particapating?.We are here to
be
> constructive.go surf porn or something.

That was the one that did it for me...

*** Plonk ***
--
Jim in NC

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

This one will take the bet.
"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
> news:9xIre.3910$yw4.3456@trnddc09...
>> Sorry,I ment Tedaboro. I just got back from Tri .My bad.
>> Now coment on the lesson;quit picken brat.
>
> Hmm, my bet is that "this one" will soon be in a bunch of kill files. Any
> takers?
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

You became faultless when.Me in the kill files.That frame of mind ;I bet you
first.
"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote
>
> I wrote this to show that the most experianced and well
>> trained pilot may become complacent.Even you sir.I hope all can learn
>> from
>> my mistake.
>
> Un-fricking-believeable. Put it off on everyone/someone else.
>
> A *smart* pilot would have found the first place to set down and get some
> more fuel, when the air time said the reserve was going to be cut into.
> The
> reserve is to be still be in the tanks when you land, not to be used to
> get
> where you wanted to go, because of headwinds, or vectors, or ....
>
> It is amazing what opportunities open up to you, when you declare a (fuel)
> emergency. Airports that you could not ordinarily get in to, will put you
> first, straight in, if necessary.
>
> Good on you, for getting some refresher on planning. Bad on you, for ever
> letting your margins get that close.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

So ,Jim when was the last time you did a Vor 30day check?
"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
> news:_3Hre.8306$2K4.7888@trnddc08...
>> I have a teen age son.That sounds like one of his cute little come backs.
>
> Anyone any closer yet? *My* finger is hovering.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

That my friend is good advice.However I think it is easyer to judge others
than to admit our own faults .
"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
> news:0wGre.18601$gL4.15259@trnddc07...
>> My flight planning and fuel management skills are top notch and will
>> remain so. Once saftey becoms habbit.You still check again.
>
> Why don't you check again, on your posts, by proofreading them before you
> hit the "send" button?
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

Java
"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message...
>
>
> Fell asleep at the controls for about a hour and woke up about ten minutes
> before I would have hit high terrain in the Colorado Rockies.
>
>

[STEVEN SIMPSON]

I must corect my error.Tedabero NJ. was the destination.Sorry for the
confusion.

"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
>I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia in a 172 rg whith a
>full load and just enogh fuel for the trip.Guess what happend on short
>final?Good thing I am up to speed on dead stick.Anyone else have a close
>call they learned a valuable lesson from.You know; the one you don't tell
>you flying buddies about.
>

[Peter Duniho]

"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
news:%rOre.11942$tY4.3145@trnddc06...
>I must corect my error.Tedabero NJ. was the destination.Sorry for the
>confusion.

Is it possible you mean Teterboro?

I've never heard of Tedabero. At first I thought it was just a typo, but
you've spelled the name that way several times now.

[Dave Butler]

STEVEN SIMPSON wrote:
> LYH to CHO to Patomac VOR aka Victor 16 to TRI City Air port.I never
> mentioned Tenn.The ADIZ is around Washington D.C.

Well you certainly confused me by saying you were going to Tri Cities Airport,
which is located in eastern Tennessee. I guess you meant some other airport, but
I have no idea where.

I looked for airports in the vicinity of Potomac VOR, but I don't see any with a
name vaguely similar to "Tri City".

Never mind. It's not important any more.

Dave

[George Patterson]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> Is it possible you mean Teterboro?
>
> I've never heard of Tedabero. At first I thought it was just a typo, but
> you've spelled the name that way several times now.

Why pick on that? He can't spell anything else either.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Peter Duniho]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:xY4se.3982$kl1.1255@trndny08...
>> I've never heard of Tedabero. At first I thought it was just a typo, but
>> you've spelled the name that way several times now.
>
> Why pick on that? He can't spell anything else either.

Because I'm honestly not clear on what airport he's talking about. At this
point, I think it's very LIKELY to be Teterboro. But unlike some of his
other misspellings, place names are not immediately obvious as misspellings.
All I know for sure is that he's misspelled the name; it could be a
misspelling of some place else entirely.

Of course, if he'd just post the actual ID rather than making one up
("TRI"), we'd know for sure. But he seems incapable of doing that as well.

If I were actually "picking" on him, I'd write something like "you idiot,
why don't you spell-check your posts?" But I think it's a waste of time to
make editorial comments about other people's spelling (as I mentioned just
recently in another thread).

I just want to know for sure what place he's talking about. Of course, at
this point I'm questioning why I really care. But there you have it. :)

Pete

[W P Dixon]

Well,
When you say TRI, which it was not and then a town no one knows....makes
me wonder if he knows where he is? Also makes me wonder if the person is a
pilot. Wouldn't a pilot know the airport he was just at? It just has not
made any sense, IMHO. Maybe this is the next 150 pilot to get escorted by
the USAF,...they will be happy to give directions ! ;) I'm with ya Pete ,
don't have a clue why I am even following this one!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


>
> I just want to know for sure what place he's talking about. Of course, at
> this point I'm questioning why I really care. But there you have it. :)
>
> Pete
>

[Rob]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> I just want to know for sure what place he's talking about. Of course, at
> this point I'm questioning why I really care. But there you have it. :)

I notice Google Groups has no history on this dude, but his "style"
somehow seems familiar. I wonder if he's changing the place names in
his story because he's worried about getting in trouble for running out
of gas on short final. Perhaps he's taken some grief from members of
the group here in the past for something he admitted doing that he
shouldn't have, say perhaps rolling a Cessna 150 or some such. Maybe
he's not from the east coast at all. Maybe he's actually a PILOT up in
the NW somewhere.

I'll bet his real name is Steven though.

Just a hunch.

-R

[Michael]

> 30 minutes is not a suggested SOP - it's a minimum!
> It's designed to help you put it down somewhere - anywhere!
> I appreciate the honesty in your post - but I cannot support the concept
> that it is OK to regularly plan landings with a 30 minute minimum

I wonder what you would think of an operation I used to fly for...

91.151 Fuel requirements for flight in VFR conditions.
(a) No person may begin a flight in an airplane under VFR conditions
unless
(considering wind and forecast weather conditions) there is enough fuel
to fly
to the first point of intended landing and, assuming normal cruising
speed --
(1) During the day, to fly after that for at least 30 minutes;

Notice it says begin - once the flight is started, there are no rules.

When I had something less than 400 hours, I started towing gliders. It
was a weird deal - the towing operation was commercial, but contracted
almost exclusively to a club. Two guys owned and ran it, and used
qualified club members for tow pilots. At one time this was done under
an SSA exemption, but afterwards the FAA made the exemption unnecessary
by adding glider towing to the list of exceptions to private pilots
flying for compensation or hire (61.113(g)). The operation used two
worn out converted cropdusters - one powered by a Lycoming O-360, the
other by a Lycoming O-470. The strip was not terribly short (3000 ft
or so) but it was very rough and obstructed, and we often towed in 100
degree weather. To maximize takeoff and climb performance, we would
put no more than 15 (or was it 20?) gallons in the tank (singular), and
we would fuel up once we were down to 5.

We climbed at full throttle and full rich mixture (tows were rarely
above 3300 MSL, and the engines always ran hot) at about 70-80 kts, and
with a climb prop that meant an O-360 would average about 15-17 gph.
The O-470 had a seaplane prop (meaning as fine a pitch as the
certification rules allowed) and would make nearly full power in the
climb, averaging maybe 22-24 gph.

It was argued that this was technically legal, since the first point of
intended landing was the point of takeoff (requiring zero fuel to
reach) and thus the flight always began with with more than the 30
minute required VFR reserves, even assuming full power cruise. Once
the flight began, well, there aren't really any rules, and who is to
say the flight ended until we shut down? I will be the first to admit
that this is a grey area, and I would sure hate to make this argument
in front of an FAA inspector if I ran out of gas. I will also be the
first to admit that this sort of operation cuts the margins to the
bone, and that running out of gas in this sort of operation is a matter
of when, not if. By the time I did it, I was not the first. Or the
second. Or the fifth...

On the bigger-engined plane, 5 gallons still allowed for a reserve of
over 10 minutes at climb power. Jet fighters routinely land with less
reserve than that, though I doubt they ever take off that way.
Considering that the field was huge (it could not be shut down by one
accident, or even two), considering that we only flew day-VFR, and
considering that the plane could very effectively cruise or loiter at
45% power or less, where the 5 gallons would actually allow for over 30
minutes of loitering or slow cruise, one could argue that it wasn't
really that bad. As long as the pilots paid attention and the fuel
gauges worked, nothing should have gone wrong.

The real problem was that our fuel burn was nothing like constant. You
never knew how much fuel a tow would take. Sometimes you made release
altitude in under 2 minutes, sometimes it took closer to 10. The
descent depended an awful lot on how hard you were willing to bank
(descents were made with a little bit of power to keep the engine warm
and in a steep banked turn - 60 degrees and up) and how low you were
willing to spiral (some would spiral into the base-to-final turn as low
as 200 ft, although our operating procedure - yes, we had one, in
writing - called for 500-1000). Then there was taxi (and again, that
time depended on whether or not you landed downwind to cut the
turnaround, as the book called for when the winds were below 10 kts) to
the hookup point and waiting for hookup at idle. With all there was to
do, timimng wasn't a realistic option - you often flew tired and
dehydrated, and you would inevitably forget to time something. We
depended on those fuel gauges.

The fuel gauges on the planes were excellent. They were mechanical
ball-and-float arrangements linked to an indicating needle. They were
VERY repeatable. We never had one break, which is how one might assume
things would go wrong. That's a funny thing I've learned about flying
- if you have an operation where the safety margins are slim, and where
the failure of some component can cause a real problem - you will
usually see that problem, but it won't be due to the failure of the
component but because the pilots are just cutting the margins too close
or screwing up.

My own screwup came from assuming that just because the small-engine
plane's tank really held 5 gallons when the needle said 5, the same
would be true of the big one. It really held 3 gallons - worth about 8
minutes in the climb. It was just a hair over that (or maybe right
there) when I taxied up and saw there was only one sailplane waiting to
launch. It's a rare tow that takes 8 minutes, but when I saw the heavy
glass ship, I knew it was trouble. Two pilots fly it - father and son.
The son is a good stick, flies coordinated, and would be no problem.
The father doesn't fly it coordinated, and heavy as it is, the climb is
often 300 fpm or less and takeoff is always marginal. I saw the father
getting in. Damn.

I figured I had more than 10 minutes of fuel - more than enough to get
the job done. Also at the back of my mind was the thought that I
didn't really want to be carrying any more than I had to - it was hot,
and there was almost no wind. We hooked up and went.

There wasn't much lift, and he wanted to go to 4000. Damn. We got
there, but by that time the needle wasn't even moving. I knew I was on
fumes. I spiraled down to 1500 ft or so, entered the pattern at idle
power, hit my key point a bit high, rolled into a slipping turn to base
to scrub off the altitude - and as soon as I went out of coordination,
the engine coughed and quit. I wasn't even surprised.

I kept only a mild slip going on base and in the turn to final, and
came up high on final. No worries - I had lots of field (about 3 times
what I needed for comfort) and the plane had a powerful rudder and big
fuselage. It slipped just fine, if you ignored the pitch oscillations
that made the ones that caused Cessna to placard the C-172 seem like a
joke. I racked it over, slipped off the extra altitude, lined up, and
started my flare about 500 ft past the threshold. As I regained
coordinated flight and raised the nose, the last dregs of fuel got to
the aft-mounted intake and the engine caught. Of course it was at
idle, so no harm done. I had just enough to taxi over to the pumps and
shut down.

One of the owners was standing by the fuel pump. He took one look at
me and at the fuel gauge, and said "Don't ever run her that low, Mike.
She'll quit on you." No kidding.

There was no chewing out. He knew the lesson had been learned.
Cheaply.

There were two partners in the tow plane operation, and he was the one
who supplied the wisdom. He knew what had to be done, and whom to
trust. Some pilots he put on the towing schedule as soon as they could
meet the insurance requirements (and maybe a might sooner), others
checked out but stayed on crew for years, dragging gliders around on
the ground, flying a little bit here and there to fill in when there
were a lot of planes waiting. He also made sure the planes were kept
up - maybe not good enough that some fed who never had to have a real
job wouldn't ground them, but good enough that the experienced pilots
felt good about flying them. He loved those towplanes. His happiest
moments were spent in them. I don't know that he ever really cared
about the gliders, though he flew them at times.

He lost his battle with cancer that year. A friend of mine and I went
to see him a few days before he died. The doctors had given him six
months when he was first diagnosed. He had fought on for half a
decade, flying most of that time, but the fight was done and he knew
it. We showed him videos of our new gliders being towed to altitude,
and he came alive. It was hard to believe it was the end, but it was.

The club cancelled flying the next weekend so everyone could go to the
funeral. My friend and I didn't go. Instead, we went to the
gliderport. There were a few others of like mind there. And so I
strapped into one of the planes that he loved so much, and they pulled
out their gliders, and I said my goodbyes from the towplane. Somehow
it seemed more fitting.

Things went downhill after that. The maintenance began to be deferred
or just not done right. The remaining partner had pretty good hands,
both as a mechanic and as a pilot, but he lacked the wisdom of his
partner. The new partner in the business was a novice. The planes got
scarier, the flying got scarier. At least half a dozen pilots had run
out of fuel before me, but always in the same way I had - at altitude
or on the way down, aware they were at the edge, and with no damage or
even any significant inconvenience - every one easily deadsticked into
the field, not only with no damage but with the successful outcome
never seriously in doubt.

Now the more experienced pilots were drifting away, because the planes
were scaring them. The pilots that had been kept off the regular
rotation now got their chance. One pilot ran out of gas on the
climbout, at 800 ft. Fortunately he made it back to the field. One of
the engines wasn't making power, but the owner wouldn't listen. Static
RPM meant nothing to him. Eventually it was opened up - and by then
the cam lobe that had come off (sic!) had rattled around enough that
the engine wasn't even repairable. It was replaced, but then the prop
was lost in flight. The operation was down to one plane. I was long
gone by then.

The last straw was a fuel exhaustion accident. The tow pilot had been
there long before me, but somehow couldn't get on the regular rotation.
There was no real mystery to it - it was known that he really didn't
have enough on the ball to consistently perform in a marginal operation
like this. But the partner that knew this died, and the roster of tow
pilots shrank, and he got his chance.

Like the many before him, he ran out of gas. He was coming in dead
stick, and he decided he was too high. He was high (maybe 200-300 ft
over the threshold) and probably fast too. He could have slipped, made
S-turns - but instead he tried to make a 360. He must have realized he
wasn't quite as high as he though partway through the turn, because he
slowed down. It wasn't enough. The plane was crashed half a mile from
the approach end of the runway, and is a total loss. He walked away.

The FAA came out to investigate. The feds were there about an hour.
The pilot may yet get cited for something. The operation continues
unchanged.

Michael

[John Larson]

Read this post.


"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
news:8Wpre.10699$lb5.6085@trnddc04...
>I flew up to Tri city airport from central virginia in a 172 rg whith a
>full load and just enogh fuel for the trip.Guess what happend on short
>final?Good thing I am up to speed on dead stick.Anyone else have a close
>call they learned a valuable lesson from.You know; the one you don't tell
>you flying buddies about.
>

[John Larson]

Where do you think those "Pros" come from nitwit?

Even the military pilots start somewhere.

What a ditz.


"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> The last stupid thing I did was sign up at a local flight school at FRG.
> Waste of money to determine that weekend piloting is only for fools, and
> that any idiot can get a private pilot certificate. The flight schools
> will take anyone's money, and claim that flying is safe.
>
> Glad to see this string has confirmed my decision to leave flying to the
> pros: that is the commercial airline pilots.
>

[John Larson]

He can't "surf porn" cuz his fav kiddie porn site was shut down over the
weekend.


"STEVEN SIMPSON" > wrote in message
news:3HGre.18609$gL4.17639@trnddc07...
> So, if you hate GA pilots why are you even particapating?.We are here to
> be constructive.go surf porn or something.
> "Skylune" > wrote in message
> lkaboutaviation.com...
>>I forgot, the next stupid thing i did was fly out of ISP with a friend of
>> mine who introduced me to this wonderful sport. He got disoriented over
>> the Long Island sound, and then couldn't work the GPS. I had to do it
>> for
>> him. He considers himself a safe, and experienced, pilot.
>>
>
>

[Skylune]

Nitwit! Ditz! That's funny.

If you had some ability to comprehend, or reason, you would realize that I
was referring to weekend pilots, not those who take regular training and
are capable of flying IMC. These message boards, as well as my own
experiences, confirm that there are many, many stupid pilots.

Perhaps your brain has become scrambled from wearing those headsets and
all the noise, rattling, etc.

[tony roberts]

Hi Michael

That was a great post - and a keeper.
Thanks for posting it - there are lots of lessons in there for anyone
that read it.

>He took one look at
>me and at the fuel gauge, and said "Don't ever run her that low, Mike.
>She'll quit on you." No kidding.

LOL - I have seen a few like that!

Tony
C-GICE

In article . com>,
"Michael" > wrote:

> > 30 minutes is not a suggested SOP - it's a minimum!
> > It's designed to help you put it down somewhere - anywhere!
> > I appreciate the honesty in your post - but I cannot support the concept
> > that it is OK to regularly plan landings with a 30 minute minimum
>
> I wonder what you would think of an operation I used to fly for...
>
> 91.151 Fuel requirements for flight in VFR conditions.
> (a) No person may begin a flight in an airplane under VFR conditions
> unless
> (considering wind and forecast weather conditions) there is enough fuel
> to fly
> to the first point of intended landing and, assuming normal cruising
> speed --
> (1) During the day, to fly after that for at least 30 minutes;
>
> Notice it says begin - once the flight is started, there are no rules.
>
> When I had something less than 400 hours, I started towing gliders. It
> was a weird deal - the towing operation was commercial, but contracted
> almost exclusively to a club. Two guys owned and ran it, and used
> qualified club members for tow pilots. At one time this was done under
> an SSA exemption, but afterwards the FAA made the exemption unnecessary
> by adding glider towing to the list of exceptions to private pilots
> flying for compensation or hire (61.113(g)). The operation used two
> worn out converted cropdusters - one powered by a Lycoming O-360, the
> other by a Lycoming O-470. The strip was not terribly short (3000 ft
> or so) but it was very rough and obstructed, and we often towed in 100
> degree weather. To maximize takeoff and climb performance, we would
> put no more than 15 (or was it 20?) gallons in the tank (singular), and
> we would fuel up once we were down to 5.
>
> We climbed at full throttle and full rich mixture (tows were rarely
> above 3300 MSL, and the engines always ran hot) at about 70-80 kts, and
> with a climb prop that meant an O-360 would average about 15-17 gph.
> The O-470 had a seaplane prop (meaning as fine a pitch as the
> certification rules allowed) and would make nearly full power in the
> climb, averaging maybe 22-24 gph.
>
> It was argued that this was technically legal, since the first point of
> intended landing was the point of takeoff (requiring zero fuel to
> reach) and thus the flight always began with with more than the 30
> minute required VFR reserves, even assuming full power cruise. Once
> the flight began, well, there aren't really any rules, and who is to
> say the flight ended until we shut down? I will be the first to admit
> that this is a grey area, and I would sure hate to make this argument
> in front of an FAA inspector if I ran out of gas. I will also be the
> first to admit that this sort of operation cuts the margins to the
> bone, and that running out of gas in this sort of operation is a matter
> of when, not if. By the time I did it, I was not the first. Or the
> second. Or the fifth...
>
> On the bigger-engined plane, 5 gallons still allowed for a reserve of
> over 10 minutes at climb power. Jet fighters routinely land with less
> reserve than that, though I doubt they ever take off that way.
> Considering that the field was huge (it could not be shut down by one
> accident, or even two), considering that we only flew day-VFR, and
> considering that the plane could very effectively cruise or loiter at
> 45% power or less, where the 5 gallons would actually allow for over 30
> minutes of loitering or slow cruise, one could argue that it wasn't
> really that bad. As long as the pilots paid attention and the fuel
> gauges worked, nothing should have gone wrong.
>
> The real problem was that our fuel burn was nothing like constant. You
> never knew how much fuel a tow would take. Sometimes you made release
> altitude in under 2 minutes, sometimes it took closer to 10. The
> descent depended an awful lot on how hard you were willing to bank
> (descents were made with a little bit of power to keep the engine warm
> and in a steep banked turn - 60 degrees and up) and how low you were
> willing to spiral (some would spiral into the base-to-final turn as low
> as 200 ft, although our operating procedure - yes, we had one, in
> writing - called for 500-1000). Then there was taxi (and again, that
> time depended on whether or not you landed downwind to cut the
> turnaround, as the book called for when the winds were below 10 kts) to
> the hookup point and waiting for hookup at idle. With all there was to
> do, timimng wasn't a realistic option - you often flew tired and
> dehydrated, and you would inevitably forget to time something. We
> depended on those fuel gauges.
>
> The fuel gauges on the planes were excellent. They were mechanical
> ball-and-float arrangements linked to an indicating needle. They were
> VERY repeatable. We never had one break, which is how one might assume
> things would go wrong. That's a funny thing I've learned about flying
> - if you have an operation where the safety margins are slim, and where
> the failure of some component can cause a real problem - you will
> usually see that problem, but it won't be due to the failure of the
> component but because the pilots are just cutting the margins too close
> or screwing up.
>
> My own screwup came from assuming that just because the small-engine
> plane's tank really held 5 gallons when the needle said 5, the same
> would be true of the big one. It really held 3 gallons - worth about 8
> minutes in the climb. It was just a hair over that (or maybe right
> there) when I taxied up and saw there was only one sailplane waiting to
> launch. It's a rare tow that takes 8 minutes, but when I saw the heavy
> glass ship, I knew it was trouble. Two pilots fly it - father and son.
> The son is a good stick, flies coordinated, and would be no problem.
> The father doesn't fly it coordinated, and heavy as it is, the climb is
> often 300 fpm or less and takeoff is always marginal. I saw the father
> getting in. Damn.
>
> I figured I had more than 10 minutes of fuel - more than enough to get
> the job done. Also at the back of my mind was the thought that I
> didn't really want to be carrying any more than I had to - it was hot,
> and there was almost no wind. We hooked up and went.
>
> There wasn't much lift, and he wanted to go to 4000. Damn. We got
> there, but by that time the needle wasn't even moving. I knew I was on
> fumes. I spiraled down to 1500 ft or so, entered the pattern at idle
> power, hit my key point a bit high, rolled into a slipping turn to base
> to scrub off the altitude - and as soon as I went out of coordination,
> the engine coughed and quit. I wasn't even surprised.
>
> I kept only a mild slip going on base and in the turn to final, and
> came up high on final. No worries - I had lots of field (about 3 times
> what I needed for comfort) and the plane had a powerful rudder and big
> fuselage. It slipped just fine, if you ignored the pitch oscillations
> that made the ones that caused Cessna to placard the C-172 seem like a
> joke. I racked it over, slipped off the extra altitude, lined up, and
> started my flare about 500 ft past the threshold. As I regained
> coordinated flight and raised the nose, the last dregs of fuel got to
> the aft-mounted intake and the engine caught. Of course it was at
> idle, so no harm done. I had just enough to taxi over to the pumps and
> shut down.
>
> One of the owners was standing by the fuel pump. He took one look at
> me and at the fuel gauge, and said "Don't ever run her that low, Mike.
> She'll quit on you." No kidding.
>
> There was no chewing out. He knew the lesson had been learned.
> Cheaply.
>
> There were two partners in the tow plane operation, and he was the one
> who supplied the wisdom. He knew what had to be done, and whom to
> trust. Some pilots he put on the towing schedule as soon as they could
> meet the insurance requirements (and maybe a might sooner), others
> checked out but stayed on crew for years, dragging gliders around on
> the ground, flying a little bit here and there to fill in when there
> were a lot of planes waiting. He also made sure the planes were kept
> up - maybe not good enough that some fed who never had to have a real
> job wouldn't ground them, but good enough that the experienced pilots
> felt good about flying them. He loved those towplanes. His happiest
> moments were spent in them. I don't know that he ever really cared
> about the gliders, though he flew them at times.
>
> He lost his battle with cancer that year. A friend of mine and I went
> to see him a few days before he died. The doctors had given him six
> months when he was first diagnosed. He had fought on for half a
> decade, flying most of that time, but the fight was done and he knew
> it. We showed him videos of our new gliders being towed to altitude,
> and he came alive. It was hard to believe it was the end, but it was.
>
> The club cancelled flying the next weekend so everyone could go to the
> funeral. My friend and I didn't go. Instead, we went to the
> gliderport. There were a few others of like mind there. And so I
> strapped into one of the planes that he loved so much, and they pulled
> out their gliders, and I said my goodbyes from the towplane. Somehow
> it seemed more fitting.
>
> Things went downhill after that. The maintenance began to be deferred
> or just not done right. The remaining partner had pretty good hands,
> both as a mechanic and as a pilot, but he lacked the wisdom of his
> partner. The new partner in the business was a novice. The planes got
> scarier, the flying got scarier. At least half a dozen pilots had run
> out of fuel before me, but always in the same way I had - at altitude
> or on the way down, aware they were at the edge, and with no damage or
> even any significant inconvenience - every one easily deadsticked into
> the field, not only with no damage but with the successful outcome
> never seriously in doubt.
>
> Now the more experienced pilots were drifting away, because the planes
> were scaring them. The pilots that had been kept off the regular
> rotation now got their chance. One pilot ran out of gas on the
> climbout, at 800 ft. Fortunately he made it back to the field. One of
> the engines wasn't making power, but the owner wouldn't listen. Static
> RPM meant nothing to him. Eventually it was opened up - and by then
> the cam lobe that had come off (sic!) had rattled around enough that
> the engine wasn't even repairable. It was replaced, but then the prop
> was lost in flight. The operation was down to one plane. I was long
> gone by then.
>
> The last straw was a fuel exhaustion accident. The tow pilot had been
> there long before me, but somehow couldn't get on the regular rotation.
> There was no real mystery to it - it was known that he really didn't
> have enough on the ball to consistently perform in a marginal operation
> like this. But the partner that knew this died, and the roster of tow
> pilots shrank, and he got his chance.
>
> Like the many before him, he ran out of gas. He was coming in dead
> stick, and he decided he was too high. He was high (maybe 200-300 ft
> over the threshold) and probably fast too. He could have slipped, made
> S-turns - but instead he tried to make a 360. He must have realized he
> wasn't quite as high as he though partway through the turn, because he
> slowed down. It wasn't enough. The plane was crashed half a mile from
> the approach end of the runway, and is a total loss. He walked away.
>
> The FAA came out to investigate. The feds were there about an hour.
> The pilot may yet get cited for something. The operation continues
> unchanged.
>
> Michael




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[marika]

tony roberts wrote:
> Hi Michael
>
> That was a great post - and a keeper.

That is a wonderful retort.


> Thanks for posting it - there are lots of lessons in there for anyone
> that read it.
>
> >He took one look at
> >me and at the fuel gauge, and said "Don't ever run her that low, Mike.
> >She'll quit on you." No kidding.
>
> LOL - I have seen a few like that!
>

those were good retorts too

ihave been thinking a lot about shopping lately

I don't even get why people need new stuff. I mean they seem to be
functioning just fine with the furniture they have.

Person A Reaction (1)
Ok. So, I have a desk that is ten years old. GET IT AWAY FROM ME GET
IT AWAY FROM ME IT IS OLD AND STINKY SOMEONE USED IT BEFORE GET IT AWAY
FROM ME GET ME SOMETHING STRAIGHT OUT OF A CATALOGUE

Person B Reaction (2)

OOOOHHHHH look this desk is 50 years old. It's a lovely antique. It
has had at least 40 prior loving owners. Those cracks and splinters
gives it character.

This goes over my head. Why is desk 2 not old and stinky???

I am perfectly happy to sit on the floor as always
(unless i am in a plane)


at work they just filled orders for furniture because have funds in the
budget that they must expend before the end of the fiscal year. Except
the stuff you orderd is always out of service.
SOOOO...I have to pick out all new stuff.
Pelikan and Pomegranate.

My trying to understand the little 3d drawings of the furniture -- no
one would sympathize. My ability to see in 3d is nonexistent. They
all looked like pictures of ducks and chickens rather than credenzas
and desks. The chairs were sort of like tulips.
Nothing looked right
And after two days of trying to see that and the tiny print on the
websites to do the ordering, I had bad white outs in both eyes

mk5000

"Time to put a cordon around Canberra to contain the
terrorist menace which is taking over the centralist
Federal government, and rely on the grass roots State
and local governments, who are closer to the people."--fasgnadh

[Maule Driver]

Yeah, great post!

I have this theory about how safe flight operations, FBOs, and small
airports all have one thing in common, that 'Ol Chained Dog. Often,
it's the operation's owner, sometimes a CFI, occassionally just a
hanger-on that everyone obeys. They are often the key to making the
whole thing work but most important, they are the person that
effectively determines who does what, how and when.... or not.

That OCD saves a lot of people and a lot of equipment. They aren't
always loved, sometimes hated, but usually respected. And sorely missed
when they depart.

Michael wrote:
>
> There were two partners in the tow plane operation, and he was the one
> who supplied the wisdom. He knew what had to be done, and whom to
> trust. Some pilots he put on the towing schedule as soon as they could
> meet the insurance requirements (and maybe a might sooner), others
> checked out but stayed on crew for years, dragging gliders around on
> the ground, flying a little bit here and there to fill in when there
> were a lot of planes waiting. He also made sure the planes were kept
> up - maybe not good enough that some fed who never had to have a real
> job wouldn't ground them, but good enough that the experienced pilots
> felt good about flying them. He loved those towplanes. His happiest
> moments were spent in them. I don't know that he ever really cared
> about the gliders, though he flew them at times.
>

[Mike]

I like the periodic confession threads .. I learn a bit from these. And
for some types of learning, repetition is good. :-)

My last stupid error was when I was a student (about two months ago)
landing a C172 dead stick with 40 degrees of flaps in. Oh yeah, and the
light crosswind. (Yes, there is a placard for this.) This was while
practicing for the checkride - the word was out that the examiner was
big on dead stick landings.

After getting it on the ground I was pretty happy. That's when I felt
my rear lift up and the nose start to head down. I don't quite know how
I danced through the swerve - I imagine it involved a lot of back
pressure and *not* touching the brakes.

After sitting at the FBO and thinking about it a few minutes I came to
the conclusion that the wind had shifted on me. The ASOS report was
close to an hour old and even though I flew the entire pattern 2 or
three times, I had not cross checked with the wind sock. My second
mistake was to not hold enough backpressure during the landing roll. My
third mistake probably was to have the controls in the wrong position
during taxi because I was unaware of the wind direction.

Neither error is a crisis in itself. In combination, I nearly had a
bent prop.

Lesson learned. I'm much more vigilant about cross checking the wind
sock when I'm on downwind and holding backpressure until the plane is at
safe taxi speed. I don't think the light crosswind was affecting my
elevator control, but that's been burned into the back of my eyes now too.


Mike (PP-ASEL)

[Michael]

> That OCD saves a lot of people and a lot of equipment. They aren't
> always loved, sometimes hated, but usually respected. And sorely missed
> when they depart.

The person I'm talking about would have resented that monicker. He had
no respect for rules - in fact, he put me in the seat when I didn't
even meet the insurance minimums for the planes, and would have gladly
put me in the seat of the high performance plane without the FAA
endorsement had I not balked. He also was the kindest, gentlest, most
beloved person on the field. Even the people he ever-so-gently kept
out of the seat did not hate or disrespect him.

Almost every safe operation has its elder statesman, but so does almost
every unsafe operation. If he's hated, or worse yet not respected,
he's not the guardian of wisdom that enhances safety - just an asshole
who likes to tell people what to do. I've seen plenty of those.

Michael



Michael

[Flyingmonk]

The last stupid thing I did was wasting 35 mins. of my time reading
every single response in this post. I really did, I timed myself too!

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone