Re: Stupid Americans! -- Stupid... Stupid... STUPID!!! __________-+__ ihuvpe

[RobertR237]

>
>You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
>President.
>He’s a complete moron and so are most of you!
>-

Which still leaves us well above you!

>Don’t you care what the rest of the world thinks of you? Don’t you care
what
>impact
>American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet? Does Iraq look like a
>success
>to anyone? Doesn’t it bother you that he’s alienated every friend you
have?
>What were you thinking???
>-

Care what you think, maybe but I will be damned if I want a president who will
let you dictate how we run our country or protect our interests.

>Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government that was so
>universally
>hated around the world. Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate. More
>sympathy
>for Bin Laden... More attacks on American institutions... More isolation.
>How blind
>can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?
>-

Not near as blind as the rest of the world has been over the last 50 years to
every dictator and facist that has come along.

>If you get hit again, or your economy goes into a deep depression, the
>American
>people will be getting exactly what they deserve!
>-
><back turned>
>-

And in turn, so will you.

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Chris]

> wrote in message
...
> You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
> President.
> He’s a complete moron and so are most of you!
> -

Plonk!

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >,
says...
>
>You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
>President.
>He’s a complete moron and so are most of you!

Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to save
your worthless asses one more time.


>-
>Don’t you care what the rest of the world thinks of you?

NO!!

>Don’t you care what impact
>American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet?

NO!!

> Does Iraq look like a success to anyone?

Depends who you ask,if you mean the women who haven't been raped since the
the fall of Saddam, or the guys who haven't had their hands cut off I'd
say they would say it's a success.


> Doesn’t it bother you that he’s alienated every friend you have?

NO!! What friend's are you referring to...France? Russia? Germany? Moochers
is more like it. I've NEVER seen our "friends" come here to help out when
there's been a disaster. All I see is our "friends" with a hand sticking out
since WW I.Calling on us to pull your fat out of the fire.


>What were you thinking???

I'm thinking it's about time we let the rest of the world take care of it's
self.

>Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government that was so
>universally
>hated around the world.


If that's the case give us all our money back and have nothing to do with us.


> Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate.

Gee my heart is breaking over your tale of woe.Hate us,I don't care in fact
I kinda like that idea.


> More sympathy for Bin Laden...

We'll if that's your hero it shows me where you stand and that's even more
reason to to not give a sh*t what you think.

>More attacks on American institutions...

Haven't seen an attack since 9/11


> More isolation.


More isolation just suits me fine, get out and stay out.


>How blind
>can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?

Not as dumb as you think,a lot of us are getting tired of always saving your
sorry asses .What arrogance to think that I actually give a sh*t what you
think.


>If you get hit again,

We'll hit right back.


> or your economy goes into a deep depression, the American
>people will be getting exactly what they deserve!

You better hope that does'nt happen because who will you cry to when you
need us to save your sorry asses?

>-
><back turned>

OH I'm soooo offended. NOT. I notice you lack the courage of your convictions
to even say what rat hole you call home...

Chuck Slusarczyk

[Jerry Springer]

ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
>>President.
>>He’s a complete moron and so are most of you!
>
>
> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to save
> your worthless asses one more time.
>
>
>
>>-
>>Don’t you care what the rest of the world thinks of you?
>
>
> NO!!
>
>
>>Don’t you care what impact
>>American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet?
>
>
> NO!!
>
>
>>Does Iraq look like a success to anyone?
>
>
> Depends who you ask,if you mean the women who haven't been raped since the
> the fall of Saddam, or the guys who haven't had their hands cut off I'd
> say they would say it's a success.
>
>
>
>>Doesn’t it bother you that he’s alienated every friend you have?
>
>
> NO!! What friend's are you referring to...France? Russia? Germany? Moochers
> is more like it. I've NEVER seen our "friends" come here to help out when
> there's been a disaster. All I see is our "friends" with a hand sticking out
> since WW I.Calling on us to pull your fat out of the fire.
>
>
>
>>What were you thinking???
>
>
> I'm thinking it's about time we let the rest of the world take care of it's
> self.
>
>
>>Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government that was so
>>universally
>>hated around the world.
>
>
>
> If that's the case give us all our money back and have nothing to do with us.
>
>
>
>>Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate.
>
>
> Gee my heart is breaking over your tale of woe.Hate us,I don't care in fact
> I kinda like that idea.
>
>
>
>>More sympathy for Bin Laden...
>
>
> We'll if that's your hero it shows me where you stand and that's even more
> reason to to not give a sh*t what you think.
>
> >More attacks on American institutions...
>
> Haven't seen an attack since 9/11
>
>
>
>>More isolation.
>
>
>
> More isolation just suits me fine, get out and stay out.
>
>
>
>>How blind
>>can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?
>
>
> Not as dumb as you think,a lot of us are getting tired of always saving your
> sorry asses .What arrogance to think that I actually give a sh*t what you
> think.
>
>
>
>>If you get hit again,
>
>
> We'll hit right back.
>
>
>
>>or your economy goes into a deep depression, the American
>>people will be getting exactly what they deserve!
>
>
> You better hope that does'nt happen because who will you cry to when you
> need us to save your sorry asses?
>
>
>>-
>><back turned>
>
>
> OH I'm soooo offended. NOT. I notice you lack the courage of your convictions
> to even say what rat hole you call home...
>
> Chuck Slusarczyk
>
The header came through a newsgroup in england so I would suspect that
is the source. It seems to have only taken 60 years for most of these
countries to forget how we helped keep their asses out of the fire
during WWll
Sure is funny how many people from other countries want to come here
to this country to live, why is that, if we are so bad? My only regret
with Bush is that he does not try close the boarders and keep the riff
raff out.
Now if we can just get rid of the assholes like Alex Baldwin etc. that
say they are going to leave this country to hurry up and do it.
You could not pay me enough money to watch a movies with these jerks in
them, nor would I ever waste my money on a Bruce Sprinstein album.

Jerry

[Blanche]

Don't feed the trolls.

[Sean Trost]

actually Jerry,
60 yrs has'nt dimmed the memory's of those that were there and remember.
I served in Korea in 1990 and made it to Eruope in 91 for reforger
and the universal sense i got was that the younger crowd were a bit more
liberal but those those that remembered the past or were students of
history were very appreciative of the US.

Sean


Jerry Springer wrote:
> ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>
>>> You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
>>> President.
>>> He’s a complete moron and so are most of you!
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us
>> to save
>> your worthless asses one more time.
>>
>>
>>
>>> -
>>> Don’t you care what the rest of the world thinks of you?
>>
>>
>>
>> NO!!
>>
>>
>>> Don’t you care what impact
>>> American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet?
>>
>>
>>
>> NO!!
>>
>>
>>> Does Iraq look like a success to anyone?
>>
>>
>>
>> Depends who you ask,if you mean the women who haven't been raped
>> since the the fall of Saddam, or the guys who haven't had their
>> hands cut off I'd say they would say it's a success.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Doesn’t it bother you that he’s alienated every friend you have?
>>
>>
>>
>> NO!! What friend's are you referring to...France? Russia? Germany?
>> Moochers is more like it. I've NEVER seen our "friends" come here to
>> help out when there's been a disaster. All I see is our "friends"
>> with a hand sticking out since WW I.Calling on us to pull your fat
>> out of the fire.
>>
>>
>>
>>> What were you thinking???
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm thinking it's about time we let the rest of the world take care
>> of it's self.
>>
>>
>>> Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government
>>> that was so
>>> universally
>>> hated around the world.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If that's the case give us all our money back and have nothing to
>> do with us.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gee my heart is breaking over your tale of woe.Hate us,I don't care
>> in fact
>> I kinda like that idea.
>>
>>
>>
>>> More sympathy for Bin Laden...
>>
>>
>>
>> We'll if that's your hero it shows me where you stand and that's
>> even more
>> reason to to not give a sh*t what you think.
>>
>> >More attacks on American institutions...
>>
>> Haven't seen an attack since 9/11
>>
>>
>>
>>> More isolation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> More isolation just suits me fine, get out and stay out.
>>
>>
>>
>>> How blind
>>> can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Not as dumb as you think,a lot of us are getting tired of always
>> saving your sorry asses .What arrogance to think that I actually
>> give a sh*t what you think.
>>
>>
>>
>>> If you get hit again,
>>
>>
>>
>> We'll hit right back.
>>
>>
>>
>>> or your economy goes into a deep depression, the American
>>> people will be getting exactly what they deserve!
>>
>>
>>
>> You better hope that does'nt happen because who will you cry to
>> when you need us to save your sorry asses?
>>
>>
>>> -
>>> <back turned>
>>
>>
>>
>> OH I'm soooo offended. NOT. I notice you lack the courage of your
>> convictions
>> to even say what rat hole you call home...
>>
>> Chuck Slusarczyk
>>
> The header came through a newsgroup in england so I would suspect that
> is the source. It seems to have only taken 60 years for most of these
> countries to forget how we helped keep their asses out of the fire
> during WWll
> Sure is funny how many people from other countries want to come here
> to this country to live, why is that, if we are so bad? My only regret
> with Bush is that he does not try close the boarders and keep the riff
> raff out.
> Now if we can just get rid of the assholes like Alex Baldwin etc. that
> say they are going to leave this country to hurry up and do it.
> You could not pay me enough money to watch a movies with these jerks in
> them, nor would I ever waste my money on a Bruce Sprinstein album.
>
> Jerry

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article .net>, Jerry
Springer says...

>Now if we can just get rid of the assholes like Alex Baldwin etc. that
>say they are going to leave this country to hurry up and do it.
>You could not pay me enough money to watch a movies with these jerks in
>them, nor would I ever waste my money on a Bruce Sprinstein album.
>
>Jerry

I would add to the list
The Sheen's
Barbara Strisand (sp?)
Roseanne
Bruce Springstein
Dixie Chicks
Fonda
Redford
etc, etc

If I knew for sure they'd leave the country I'd donate to the "get the hell
outta here" fund :-)

See ya

Chuck S

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 19:42:56 GMT, Jerry Springer > wrote:


>The header came through a newsgroup in england so I would suspect that
>is the source. It seems to have only taken 60 years for most of these
>countries to forget how we helped keep their asses out of the fire
>during WWll

Well... Remember that we weren't so eager to join in. Depending upon how one
establishes it, WWII either started in 1937 (Japanese invasion of China), 1938
(German annexation of Czechoslovakia), 1939 (German invasion of Poland, British
and French declarations of war), July 1941 (German invasion of Russia) or
December 1941 (Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor).

Note that even after Pearl Harbor, we tried to not get involved in Europe. We
didn't immediately declare war on German. We declared war on Japan only. We
didn't go to war (officially...I'm not forgetting the Reuben James) with Germany
and Italy until they subsequently declared war on us a few days later. We
liberated France and the low countries as a byproduct of defeating Germany, not
as a reason for going to war.

But we don't have to argue that point. The question is, how long after "keeping
their asses out of the fire" are they morally required to defer to the United
States? At what point is the obligation discharged? Fifty years? A hundred
years?

Remember, there wouldn't have been a United States without France. They armed
us, trained our armies, committed thousands of troops, and used their navy to
keep the British from reinforcing, supplying, or evacuating Cornwallis' army at
Yorktown.

And how did we repay France?

1790-1797: Most of the European monarchies form armies to crush the new French
Republic. United States support to France: None (other than US merchants
getting rich selling grain to all countries involved)

1798-1801: Quasi-War with France. American ships seek out French ships
(sometimes in cooperation with local British naval units) and take, burn, sink,
and destroy. Note that we're at *war* with the country that "saved our asses"
less than 20 years after Yorktown.

1803-1814: Second phase of Napoleonic wars. US support to France: None.
Wellington's troops in Portugal and Spain fed by US grain imports. US picks up
Louisiana Purchase at "Fire Sale" prices because Napoleon needs the money and
expects to lose the territories to the British anyway.

1812-1814: US at war with Great Britain, at the same time the French are. US
troops committed to defend France: None. Joint naval operation with the French
navy: None. The French allow American privateers to use their ports. US grain
ships continue to supply Wellington.

1815: Napoleon escapes from Elba, war starts anew. US support: Zero. (A
point of irony: British saved by appearance of Prussian (e.g., German) troops
at Waterloo. Little thanks they got, too.)

1854: France at war with Russia. US support: Zero.

1860: France at war with China. US support: Zero.

1870: France invaded by Prussia. US support: Zero. Post-war actions:

So...is the lack of French gratitude any more immoral than our own?

Ron "a little more gas on the fire" Wanttaja

[Roger]

On 7 Nov 2004 14:39:01 -0700, Blanche >
wrote:

>Don't feed the trolls.

I was just going to say, he's hit many, many newsgroups (from aviation
to computers) so it has to have been a hit and run. Probably one of
the most successful so far.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[RobertR237]

>
>>Now if we can just get rid of the assholes like Alex Baldwin etc. that
>>say they are going to leave this country to hurry up and do it.
>>You could not pay me enough money to watch a movies with these jerks in
>>them, nor would I ever waste my money on a Bruce Sprinstein album.
>>
>>Jerry
>
>I would add to the list
>The Sheen's
>Barbara Strisand (sp?)
>Roseanne
>Bruce Springstein
>Dixie Chicks
>Fonda
>Redford
>etc, etc
>
>If I knew for sure they'd leave the country I'd donate to the "get the hell
>outta here" fund :-)
>
>See ya
>
>Chuck S
>

Some of them promised to leave several years ago but didn't. Their weak excuse
was that Bush didn't win the election, the Supreme Court stole it so they had
an excuse. I wonder what their excuse will be this time.

Fonda should have been tried for treason a long time ago.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Darrel Toepfer]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:

> So...is the lack of French gratitude any more immoral than our own?

To the victors geaux the spoils:

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html

or

http://www.google-watch.org/newsday.html

This might be a better reference point:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

The Second Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does
most of the fighting."

[[email protected]]

> I'm thinking it's about time we let the rest of the world take care of it's
> self.

That would be nice!

The UN

[Thomas Borchert]

Richard,

> Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>
> Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>

Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?

The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
Germany, Old Europe (and proudly so)

[Chuck]

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS MICHAEL MOORE.



> wrote in message
...
> You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
> President.
> He's a complete moron and so are most of you!
> -
> Don't you care what the rest of the world thinks of you? Don't you care
> what impact
> American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet? Does Iraq look
> like a success
> to anyone? Doesn't it bother you that he's alienated every friend you
> have?
> What were you thinking???
> -
> Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government that was
> so universally
> hated around the world. Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate. More
> sympathy
> for Bin Laden... More attacks on American institutions... More isolation.
> How blind
> can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?
> -
> If you get hit again, or your economy goes into a deep depression, the
> American
> people will be getting exactly what they deserve!
> -
> <back turned>
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> [Ignore what follows]
> They are judging outside solid, before stale, among weak elbows.
>
> Some sharp urban carpenters will freely dye the dryers. Some
> cans scold, kick, and explain. Others regularly laugh. If the
> unique bowls can reject sneakily, the hollow grocer may cover more
> arenas. We pull them, then we deeply measure Candy and Talal's
> younger powder. She should wastefully help heavy and tastes our
> outer, proud clouds with a rain. There, it expects a exit too
> sweet without her fat dorm. It's very fresh today, I'll walk
> loudly or Norbert will recollect the buttons.
>
> Just shouting over a bucket among the store is too dull for Feyd to
> fill it.
>
> Lionel irritates the cup below hers and wickedly believes. Both
> fearing now, Allahdad and Winifred killed the empty kiosks over
> difficult shoe. The yogis, porters, and eggs are all blunt and
> polite. We look the raw smog.
>
> Rifaat teases, then Marty eventually solves a good gardner outside
> Hamid's ceiling. Better cook envelopes now or Abdul will usably
> pour them beneath you. Lots of tapes will be smart light puddles.
>
> Otherwise the weaver in Brian's farmer might jump some rude onions. Tell
> Neil it's pretty recommending alongside a goldsmith. Lots of
> full papers promise Rashid, and they hatefully change Kaye too.
> Angelo, in caps shallow and healthy, burns to it, opening admiringly. It
> moved, you moulded, yet Roxanne never strangely departed alongside the
> ocean.
>
> Almost no long easy oranges surprisingly seek as the open films
> order. Don't lift subtly while you're arriving in back of a
> noisy cat. You won't receive me loving inside your clean lake. She wants
> to
> hate sick shirts about Marwan's light. He may climb once, excuse
> bimonthly, then attempt towards the enigma against the mirror.
> Don't try to improve the cars cruelly, nibble them rigidly.
> It can dream durable desks, do you creep them? Nowadays Zakariya will
> answer the dust, and if Fahd grudgingly irrigates it too, the
> fig will sow above the wide morning. Almost no worthwhile boats
> to the tired island were playing for the bizarre fog. Try behaving the
> earth's ugly coffee and Hakeem will smell you!
>
>
>

[Jerry Springer]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Richard,
>
>
>>Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>>
>>Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>>
>
>
> Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
> from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?
>
> The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...
>
I don't have a problem with Kerry supporters at all. Problem I have is
with Kerry supporters that mouth off and say they are going to leave the
country if Bush wins, that is idiotic and it makes them look really
stupid, I would have more respect for them if they did leave. My problem
with Kerry was that I was in Vietnam 67-68 and to have that jackass come
back and say the things he did about the service men there was nuts.
I believe that if Kerry had really won his medals he would not have been
so eager to throw them away.

Jerry

[RobertR237]

>
>> I'm thinking it's about time we let the rest of the world take care of
>it's
>> self.
>
>That would be nice!
>
>The UN
>

The UN is a friggen joke, always has been and probably always will be. We
wouldn't be in Iraq now if the UN had done its job after the first Iraq war.

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[RobertR237]

>
>> Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>>
>> Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>>
>
>Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
>from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?
>
>The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...
>
>--
>Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>Germany, Old Europe (and proudly so)
>

Yes, the idiocy reached a new height when the original post to this thread was
made and you aren't helping a great deal either. One look at Germany right now
and your own political situation should be enough to cause you to do a bit of
self examination before commenting on the politics of the US.

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Newps]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Richard,
>
>
>>Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>>
>>Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>>
>
>
> Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters".

Same with Coors beer. A friend that lives here is in charge of buying
all the hops for Coors. Until last year they bought a lot from France.
Now...zip.

[RobertR237]

>>
>>>Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>>>
>>>Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>>>
>>
>>
>> Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
>> from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?
>>
>> The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...
>>
>I don't have a problem with Kerry supporters at all. Problem I have is
>with Kerry supporters that mouth off and say they are going to leave the
>country if Bush wins, that is idiotic and it makes them look really
>stupid, I would have more respect for them if they did leave. My problem
>with Kerry was that I was in Vietnam 67-68 and to have that jackass come
>back and say the things he did about the service men there was nuts.
>I believe that if Kerry had really won his medals he would not have been
>so eager to throw them away.
>
>Jerry
>

I could even accept his throwing his medals away and would have had some
respect for that if he had not retrieved them and then tried to wear them again
as some badge of honor. You can't have it both ways. Had he simply stood by
his convictions, even when it didn't seem to be the most politically attractive
thing to do, I could have accepted and supported him. I can admire a man who
stands by his convictions, even when the disagree with my own. Kerry had never
show such convictions and neither do many of his most vocal and ardent
supporters.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Thomas Borchert]

Newps,

uh, I think you lost my irony. I'll spell it out: This is how the Third
Reich started.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Bob]

I for the most part don't do boycotts, just like Rush.

There is a difference here though. The term Jew is racial whereas the
people named below for boycott are individuals of whom I do not know
their origin.

So your comment isn't right.

I don't think boycotts work or help matters when all is said and done.

Let's keep the disscussion civil and not personal.
Then if we run into each other we can enjoy a beer together. There is
a helluva a lot more we have in common than not.




Thomas Borchert > wrote in message >...
> Richard,
>
> > Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
> >
> > Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
> >
>
> Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
> from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?
>
> The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...

[G EddieA95]

>Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
>from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?
>
>The idiocy in this group has reached new heights..

Political boycott is not idiotic, it is a valid form of protest (except, rather
pointless once an election is over).

Comparing political boycott with an ethnic boycott, which is nothing but
persecution, is disingenuous to say the least.

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, RobertR237 says...

>I could even accept his throwing his medals away and would have had some
>respect for that if he had not retrieved them and then tried to wear them again
>as some badge of honor. You can't have it both ways. Had he simply stood by
>his convictions, even when it didn't seem to be the most politically attractive
>thing to do, I could have accepted and supported him. I can admire a man who
>stands by his convictions, even when the disagree with my own. Kerry had never
>show such convictions and neither do many of his most vocal and ardent
>supporters.
Exactly how I feel about him . If he would have said something like "Bush sent
our factorys overseas.But if I'm elected I'll have my wife bring all of her
overseas companies back to the USA" Hmmm Now that would show a bit of courage in
ones convictions. Or how about " I've been against the NRA and gun owners for 20
years and voted against them every chance I had .If I'm elected I'll
continue my war against guns". Now that would have been an honest statement. But
instead he goes Goose hunting thinking gun owners are naive enough vote for him.

Chuck S

[Mark Hickey]

Thomas Borchert > wrote:

>Newps,
>
>uh, I think you lost my irony. I'll spell it out: This is how the Third
>Reich started.

What - with the rest of the world telling Germany they were a bunch of
idiots, and telling them how they should run their country?

Maybe you have a point (not quite the one you intended though).

Mark "like anyone in Yurrup has a CLUE what's really going on here"
Hickey

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:51:47 -0700, Mark Hickey > wrote:

>Thomas Borchert > wrote:
>
>>Newps,
>>
>>uh, I think you lost my irony. I'll spell it out: This is how the Third
>>Reich started.
>
>What - with the rest of the world telling Germany they were a bunch of
>idiots, and telling them how they should run their country?

Ummmm...yes, in fact. See the Treaty of Versailles. The onerous conditions the
Treaty imposed brought about the economic chaos and political upheaval that
brought the Nazi party into existence.

Not Thomas' point, I suspect, but....

Ron "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to watching repeats on the
History Channel" Wanttaja

[Rich]

ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message >...

> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to save
> your worthless asses one more time.

I believe the French came to our aid first during the American Revolution.

Rich

[Rich]

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
- President Thomas Jefferson

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from the
government.
- Thomas Paine

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither."
- Ben Franklin

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand
by the President."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

[Barnyard BOb -]

>So...is the lack of French gratitude any more immoral than our own?
>
>Ron "a little more gas on the fire" Wanttaja
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When you're as old as I am.... DEPENDS.
[Just in case you were seeking an answer.]


Barnyard BOb - may history trump histrionics

[Barnyard BOb -]

>Ummmm...yes, in fact. See the Treaty of Versailles. The onerous conditions the
>Treaty imposed brought about the economic chaos and political upheaval that
>brought the Nazi party into existence.
>
>Not Thomas' point, I suspect, but....
>
>Ron "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to watching repeats on the
>History Channel" Wanttaja
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why stop there?

See the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930.
Without it, Japan may have never bombed Pearl Harbor.


Barnyard BOb -

[Rufio]

"Rich" > wrote in message
om...
> ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>...
>
> > Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to
save
> > your worthless asses one more time.
>
> I believe the French came to our aid first during the American Revolution.
>
> Rich

http://xenophongroup.com/mcjoynt/laf-sqr1.htm

[alexy]

ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote:

>In article >, RobertR237 says...
>
>>I could even accept his throwing his medals away and would have had some
>>respect for that if he had not retrieved them and then tried to wear them again
>>as some badge of honor. You can't have it both ways. Had he simply stood by
>>his convictions, even when it didn't seem to be the most politically attractive
>>thing to do, I could have accepted and supported him. I can admire a man who
>>stands by his convictions, even when the disagree with my own. Kerry had never
>>show such convictions and neither do many of his most vocal and ardent
>>supporters.
>Exactly how I feel about him . If he would have said something like "Bush sent
>our factorys overseas.But if I'm elected I'll have my wife bring all of her
>overseas companies back to the USA" Hmmm Now that would show a bit of courage in
>ones convictions.

Chuck, I'm no fan of Kerry's nor do I have a stake in Heinz, but check
www.heinz.com for some info about the company, the degree of Mrs.
Kerry's ownership, the percentage of foreign SALES versus foreign
production, and the percentage of their PAC money going to dems vs.
reps.

--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

[RobertR237]

>
>ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>...
>
>> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to
>save
>> your worthless asses one more time.
>
>I believe the French came to our aid first during the American Revolution.
>
>Rich
>

You are right but I am not sure their intent was so much to aid as to injure
England in any way possible. Their motivies then as with Iraq were purely
selfish. The French didn't support the US in Iraq because they had been
dealing around the UN sanctions for years and had everything to gain from the
status-quo.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, Rich says...
>
>ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>...
>
>> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to save
>> your worthless asses one more time.
>
>I believe the French came to our aid first during the American Revolution.
>
>Rich

Yes they did and I'm greatful for that .But sadly since then their attitude has
changed.

See ya

Chuck s

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 09 Nov 2004 13:34:31 GMT, (RobertR237) wrote:

>>
>>ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>...
>>
>>> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to
>>save
>>> your worthless asses one more time.
>>
>>I believe the French came to our aid first during the American Revolution.
>>
>
>You are right but I am not sure their intent was so much to aid as to injure
>England in any way possible. Their motivies then as with Iraq were purely
>selfish.

You're absolutely, absolutely, right here, Robert. The French government's goal
during the American Revolution was to stick it to the British, not foster the
cause of freedom.

But...how much difference does that make, when we're talking about a moral
obligation? If you are drowning and the guy who fishes you out of the water is
the same guy to whom you owe thousands of dollars, are you then excused from
feeling any gratitude?

The point is, whether a given entity is morally obligated to assist someone who
helped them earlier depends highly on what actions the entity is asked to
undertake.

I agree that France did not join the coalition out of purely selfish motives;
the only point that I dispute is whether they had some sort of moral obligation
to join because of our part in liberating the country during WWII.

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 06:22:02 -0800, Richard Riley >
wrote:

>And during the Revolution, the French declared that Lafayette was a
>traitor and issued a death warrant for him. It was only at the end of
>the war, when the French joined (to make life hard for the Brits) that
>the order was lifted.

Lafayette did travel to the new United States against the express wishes of King
Louis..but then, Benjamin Franklin didn't want him to go, either. An arrest
warrant to try to stop him leaving the country was issued *at the demand of the
British ambassador*. Lafayette left France against the will of his king,
against the desires of two of the three American commissioners, and with two
British ships in hot pursuit. Ya gotta admire the guy.... nineteen years old.
Sheesh.

In any case, the American alliance with France was signed less than eight months
after Lafayette's arrival in the US. Little chance that he was considered a
"premature anti-Briton". :-)

However, Lafayette WAS declared a traitor and forced to leave France during the
French revolution. He was one of the early leaders of the revolution, was in
command of its first formal armed unit (the National Guard). He was considered
a traitor to his class by the Royalists, but others in the revolution didn't
consider him radical enough. He was eventually denounced as a traitor by
post-revolution national council and forced to flee.

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:11:28 -0600, Barnyard BOb - > wrote:
>>So...is the lack of French gratitude any more immoral than our own?
>>
>>Ron "a little more gas on the fire" Wanttaja
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>When you're as old as I am.... DEPENDS.
>[Just in case you were seeking an answer.]

I have to defer to the one man who was at both the liberation of Paris and the
Battle of Brandywine. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Rufio]

"ChuckSlusarczyk" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Rich says...
> >
> >ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
> >...
> >
> >> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to
save
> >> your worthless asses one more time.
> >
> >I believe the French came to our aid first during the American
Revolution.
> >
> >Rich
>
> Yes they did and I'm greatful for that .But sadly since then their
attitude has
> changed.
>
> See ya
>
> Chuck s
>

Since then, the French (founder member of NATO) have fought in

WW I
France - 1.3 million troops dead (16% of all it's troops) + 40 thousand
civilians (also see http://www.war1418.com/battleverdun/index.htm)
US 126 thousand troops dead (3% of all it's troops)
Russia 1.7 million troops dead (14% of all it's troops) + 3 million
civilians dead.

WW II (Including fighting the Japanese in Indochina)
France 210 thousand troops dead & 350 thousand civilians dead.
US 292 thousand troops dead & 6 thousand civilians dead
USSR 8.7 million troops dead & 17 million civilians dead.

France has also fought in, kept the peace in, or evacuated civilians from -

Gulf War I
Afghanistan
Bosnia
Kosovo
Chad
Haiti
Sudan
Ivory Coast
Liberia
Rwanda
East Timor
(DR) Congo
Zaire
Franco-Austrian war
Franco-Prussian war
25 years of various battles in Syria.
Numerous battles in Indochina/SE Asia

Off the top of my head, the only war that I can think of, that France hasn't
been involved in, is the current cluster-fk in Iraq.

The USA has lost about 800,000-900,000 troops (combat & non-combat) in it's
entire history. France los about that many in just 5 months of 1916. France
has paid it's price, fighting for freedom.

P.S. I'm not French.

[B2431]

>Stupid... Stupid... STUPID!!! __________-+__ ihuvpe
>From: "Rufio"
>Date: 11/9/2004 11:10 Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <7R6kd.246522$a85.209030@fed1read04>
>
>
>"ChuckSlusarczyk" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >, Rich says...
>> >
>> >ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>> >...
>> >
>> >> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to
>save
>> >> your worthless asses one more time.
>> >
>> >I believe the French came to our aid first during the American
>Revolution.
>> >
>> >Rich
>>
>> Yes they did and I'm greatful for that .But sadly since then their
>attitude has
>> changed.
>>
>> See ya
>>
>> Chuck s
>>
>
>Since then, the French (founder member of NATO) have fought in
>
>WW I
>France - 1.3 million troops dead (16% of all it's troops) + 40 thousand
>civilians (also see http://www.war1418.com/battleverdun/index.htm)
>US 126 thousand troops dead (3% of all it's troops)
>Russia 1.7 million troops dead (14% of all it's troops) + 3 million
>civilians dead.
>
>WW II (Including fighting the Japanese in Indochina)
>France 210 thousand troops dead & 350 thousand civilians dead.
>US 292 thousand troops dead & 6 thousand civilians dead
>USSR 8.7 million troops dead & 17 million civilians dead.
>
>France has also fought in, kept the peace in, or evacuated civilians from -
>
>Gulf War I
>Afghanistan
>Bosnia
>Kosovo
>Chad
>Haiti
>Sudan
>Ivory Coast
>Liberia
>Rwanda
>East Timor
>(DR) Congo
>Zaire
>Franco-Austrian war
>Franco-Prussian war
>25 years of various battles in Syria.
>Numerous battles in Indochina/SE Asia
>
>Off the top of my head, the only war that I can think of, that France hasn't
>been involved in, is the current cluster-fk in Iraq.
>
>The USA has lost about 800,000-900,000 troops (combat & non-combat) in it's
>entire history. France los about that many in just 5 months of 1916. France
>has paid it's price, fighting for freedom.
>
>P.S. I'm not French.

Comparing any loses to those of WW1 is not a good comparison. The horrendous
loses at Verdun, Somme, Ypres etc was a result of insanity. Insanity is trying
the same action that has never has the desired effect before and won't this
time. Going "over the top" into a meat grinder didn't work for anyone in that
war yet they kept doing it. During WW2 the only people stupid enough to
re-enact that theory were the Japanese with attendant losses.


Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ahlbebuck]

Hello, Richard!
You wrote on Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:54:10 -0800:

RR> A small addenda. Those decisions don't mean I'm compromising my
RR> standards, either. French wine can be good, but I generally find
RR> California wine better, and a lot less expensive. Austrailian wine is
RR> certainly as good as French and getting better every year. With
RR> dinner last night I had a wonderful Falerno from Italy. They've been
RR> making it for 3000 years, they have it down.

RR> A good American micro-brew is world class, and there's nothing from
RR> Germany that can compare to a Black and Tan.

cant agree with you there. we have all the latest euro models here in south
africa and there's no problem with reliability!

I guess it has everything to do with assembly and not much with design!

Although we have few american cars here, i am positive that there is NO
american car that comes even close to german engineering!

With best regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:

[Gig Giacona]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >Stupid... Stupid... STUPID!!! __________-+__ ihuvpe
>>From: "Rufio"
>>Date: 11/9/2004 11:10 Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: <7R6kd.246522$a85.209030@fed1read04>
>>
>>
>>"ChuckSlusarczyk" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article >, Rich
>>> says...
>>> >
>>> >ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>>> >...
>>> >
>>> >> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us
>>> >> to
>>save
>>> >> your worthless asses one more time.
>>> >
>>> >I believe the French came to our aid first during the American
>>Revolution.
>>> >
>>> >Rich
>>>
>>> Yes they did and I'm greatful for that .But sadly since then their
>>attitude has
>>> changed.
>>>
>>> See ya
>>>
>>> Chuck s
>>>
>>
>>Since then, the French (founder member of NATO) have fought in
>>
>>WW I
>>France - 1.3 million troops dead (16% of all it's troops) + 40 thousand
>>civilians (also see http://www.war1418.com/battleverdun/index.htm)
>>US 126 thousand troops dead (3% of all it's troops)
>>Russia 1.7 million troops dead (14% of all it's troops) + 3 million
>>civilians dead.
>>
>>WW II (Including fighting the Japanese in Indochina)
>>France 210 thousand troops dead & 350 thousand civilians dead.
>>US 292 thousand troops dead & 6 thousand civilians dead
>>USSR 8.7 million troops dead & 17 million civilians dead.
>>
>>France has also fought in, kept the peace in, or evacuated civilians
>>from -
>>
>>Gulf War I
>>Afghanistan
>>Bosnia
>>Kosovo
>>Chad
>>Haiti
>>Sudan
>>Ivory Coast
>>Liberia
>>Rwanda
>>East Timor
>>(DR) Congo
>>Zaire
>>Franco-Austrian war
>>Franco-Prussian war
>>25 years of various battles in Syria.
>>Numerous battles in Indochina/SE Asia
>>
>>Off the top of my head, the only war that I can think of, that France
>>hasn't
>>been involved in, is the current cluster-fk in Iraq.
>>
>>The USA has lost about 800,000-900,000 troops (combat & non-combat) in
>>it's
>>entire history. France los about that many in just 5 months of 1916.
>>France
>>has paid it's price, fighting for freedom.
>>
>>P.S. I'm not French.
>
> Comparing any loses to those of WW1 is not a good comparison. The
> horrendous
> loses at Verdun, Somme, Ypres etc was a result of insanity. Insanity is
> trying
> the same action that has never has the desired effect before and won't
> this
> time. Going "over the top" into a meat grinder didn't work for anyone in
> that
> war yet they kept doing it. During WW2 the only people stupid enough to
> re-enact that theory were the Japanese with attendant losses.
>
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Here's a little Google Search that gives some great ingo on the French
military... http://tinyurl.com/6u97

[Judah]

Are you sure it's THEIR attitude that changed?


ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in
:

> In article >, Rich
> says...
>>
>>ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>...
>>
>>> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us
>>> to save your worthless asses one more time.
>>
>>I believe the French came to our aid first during the American
>>Revolution.
>>
>>Rich
>
> Yes they did and I'm greatful for that .But sadly since then their
> attitude has changed.
>
> See ya
>
> Chuck s
>

[Dave]

I.m not sure the motives of any country or party are ever really free of
self interest, at any time. If they were, sufficient evidence of self
interest can be conjured up so that the fact would never be clear.

In the case of the U.S. involvment in Iraq, or France's choice to avoid
participation, book could be written about how selfless or selfish their
motives are and the view you choose largely depends on the beliefs you carry
into the arguement. There is no clear answer, in the case of either country.

For those outside of the U.S. I would encourage you to keep your "insights"
to yourselves and respect the choice the American people have made. They
seem deeply divided on the topic and we outsiders shouldn't comment.

After all, you never see them interfering in anyone elses business.

[RobertR237]

>
>>>
>>>ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>...
>>>
>>>> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to
>>>save
>>>> your worthless asses one more time.
>>>
>>>I believe the French came to our aid first during the American Revolution.
>
>>>
>>
>>You are right but I am not sure their intent was so much to aid as to injure
>>England in any way possible. Their motivies then as with Iraq were purely
>>selfish.
>
>You're absolutely, absolutely, right here, Robert. The French government's
>goal
>during the American Revolution was to stick it to the British, not foster the
>cause of freedom.
>
>But...how much difference does that make, when we're talking about a moral
>obligation? If you are drowning and the guy who fishes you out of the water
>is
>the same guy to whom you owe thousands of dollars, are you then excused from
>feeling any gratitude?
>
>The point is, whether a given entity is morally obligated to assist someone
>who
>helped them earlier depends highly on what actions the entity is asked to
>undertake.
>
>I agree that France did not join the coalition out of purely selfish motives;
>the only point that I dispute is whether they had some sort of moral
>obligation
>to join because of our part in liberating the country during WWII.
>

No, I don't believe that they owed any moral obligation to the US as a result
of WWII and I don't believe they had any direct obligation to support the US in
Iraq. I don't believe we should expect them to either. Then again, why should
we continue to maintain support for France and NATO if they are not going to
support us when needed?

What I do have a real problem with is their condemnation of the US when their
only reason was their own special interests. Those special interests may very
well have contributed to the problem by sidestepping the UN sactions and
funneling money and arms to Iraq.

>On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 06:22:02 -0800, Richard Riley >
>wrote:
>
>>And during the Revolution, the French declared that Lafayette was a
>>traitor and issued a death warrant for him. It was only at the end of
>>the war, when the French joined (to make life hard for the Brits) that
>>the order was lifted.
>
>Lafayette did travel to the new United States against the express wishes of
>King
>Louis..but then, Benjamin Franklin didn't want him to go, either. An arrest
>warrant to try to stop him leaving the country was issued *at the demand of
>the
>British ambassador*. Lafayette left France against the will of his king,
>against the desires of two of the three American commissioners, and with two
>British ships in hot pursuit. Ya gotta admire the guy.... nineteen years
>old.
>Sheesh.
>
>In any case, the American alliance with France was signed less than eight
>months
>after Lafayette's arrival in the US. Little chance that he was considered a
>"premature anti-Briton". :-)
>
>However, Lafayette WAS declared a traitor and forced to leave France during
>the
>French revolution. He was one of the early leaders of the revolution, was in
>command of its first formal armed unit (the National Guard). He was
>considered
>a traitor to his class by the Royalists, but others in the revolution didn't
>consider him radical enough. He was eventually denounced as a traitor by
>post-revolution national council and forced to flee.
>
>On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:11:28 -0600, Barnyard BOb - >
>wrote:
>>>So...is the lack of French gratitude any more immoral than our own?
>>>
>>>Ron "a little more gas on the fire" Wanttaja
>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>>When you're as old as I am.... DEPENDS.
>>[Just in case you were seeking an answer.]
>
>I have to defer to the one man who was at both the liberation of Paris and
>the
>Battle of Brandywine. :-)
>
>Ron Wanttaja


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Morgans]

"ahlbebuck" > wrote

> Although we have few american cars here, i am positive that there is NO
> american car that comes even close to german engineering!
>
> With best regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:
>
>
So you admit you have few American cars to compare them with, either in
reliability, or engineering superiority. Yet you still make the claim.
Sounds unsubstantiated to me.

I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work on
than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles and
years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.

These ratings that were talked about in the previous post, are not pulled
out of the clear air. There is a reason for their inclusion in the list.
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004

[Tex Houston]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ahlbebuck" > wrote
>
>> Although we have few american cars here, i am positive that there is NO
>> american car that comes even close to german engineering!
>>
>> With best regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:
>>
>>
> So you admit you have few American cars to compare them with, either in
> reliability, or engineering superiority. Yet you still make the claim.
> Sounds unsubstantiated to me.
>
> I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work
> on
> than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles
> and
> years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
> unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.
>
> These ratings that were talked about in the previous post, are not pulled
> out of the clear air. There is a reason for their inclusion in the list.
> --
> Jim in NC


Changing to OT. I can't imagine what any of this has to do with
rec.aviation balloon .Tex

[Morgans]

"Tex Houston" > wrote in message >
>
> Changing to OT. I can't imagine what any of this has to do with
> rec.aviation balloon .Tex

This whole thread, a long one at that, has been OT. Why some seem intent in
cross posting to a dozen groups, is beyond me. Sometimes I catch it,
sometimes I don't.

Suck it up. Filter if you must, or ignore it. Life is too short to spend
it bitchin'. It took a while for me to "get it", but now I manage.
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004

[ahlbebuck]

Hello, Morgans!
You wrote on Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:02:39 -0500:

??>> Although we have few american cars here, i am positive that there is
??>> NO american car that comes even close to german engineering! With best
??>> regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:
M> So you admit you have few American cars to compare them with, either in
M> reliability, or engineering superiority. Yet you still make the claim.
M> Sounds unsubstantiated to me.

M> I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
M> work on than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after
M> many miles and years of use) I will not comment on the other American
M> brands, because unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not
M> familiar with.

M> These ratings that were talked about in the previous post, are not
M> pulled out of the clear air. There is a reason for their inclusion in
M> the list. --
M> Jim in NC

M> ---
M> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
M> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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OK apples with apples : BMW X5 / MB ML - absolute quality
Jeep Cherokee - not even close

BMW Z3/4 / MB SLK absolute quality
Chrysler crossfire - rubbish, not even the SLK engine can save the design

BMW 1 series / VW Jetta/Golf - quality
Chrysler Neon - rubbish

I drive a new diesel BMW 3 series - what a pleasure!
I also have a Cobra with a Corvette motor / box - even more fun!
You're right - the chevy is a pleasure to work on - regularly - the Beemer
never needs fixing, so i cannot comment!


With best regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:

[Tex Houston]

"ahlbebuck" > wrote in message
...
>
> OK apples with apples : BMW X5 / MB ML - absolute quality
> Jeep Cherokee - not even close
>
> BMW Z3/4 / MB SLK absolute quality
> Chrysler crossfire - rubbish, not even the SLK engine can save the design
>
> BMW 1 series / VW Jetta/Golf - quality
> Chrysler Neon - rubbish
>
> I drive a new diesel BMW 3 series - what a pleasure!
> I also have a Cobra with a Corvette motor / box - even more fun!
> You're right - the chevy is a pleasure to work on - regularly - the Beemer
> never needs fixing, so i cannot comment!

My Chrysler was made in Mexico, my neighbor's Chrysler was made in Canada.
The two Hondas across the street were made in Ohio. The BMW X5 which you
say is absolute quality was made in Spartanburg SC.

Just what is an American car?

Tex

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 09 Nov 2004 23:35:44 GMT, (RobertR237) wrote:

>No, I don't believe that they owed any moral obligation to the US as a result
>of WWII and I don't believe they had any direct obligation to support the US in
>Iraq. I don't believe we should expect them to either. Then again, why should
>we continue to maintain support for France and NATO if they are not going to
>support us when needed?

The question now, then is: Why does NATO even exist, anymore? It was intended
to oppose the Warsaw Pact nations...many of which have *joined* NATO, now. Why
continue to support thousands of US troops in Europe, especially with the
personnel and financial drain of Iraq?

>What I do have a real problem with is their condemnation of the US when their
>only reason was their own special interests. Those special interests may very
>well have contributed to the problem by sidestepping the UN sactions and
>funneling money and arms to Iraq.

And I respect your right to hold such an opinion, especially as it is formed
from your own analysis of the situation rather than from an unreasoning
expectation that they "owe us one."

Ron Wanttaja

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:22:14 +0200, "ahlbebuck" > wrote:

> M> I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
> M> work on than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after
> M> many miles and years of use) I will not comment on the other American
> M> brands, because unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not
> M> familiar with.
>
>OK apples with apples : BMW X5 / MB ML - absolute quality
>Jeep Cherokee - not even close
>
>BMW Z3/4 / MB SLK absolute quality
>Chrysler crossfire - rubbish, not even the SLK engine can save the design

Wheee, doggies. This ain't a topic I'm all that interested in, but a co-worker
of mine has one of the BMW Z series (think it's a Z3). His matter-of-fact
description of the mechanical problems the car has, and the way the local BMW
dealer just absolutely shafts him, has just about ensured that *I'll* never buy
one. But by gosh, he just LOVES the car.

Sure, I have had some troubles with my Oldsmobile. But then, I only paid $18K
for it....

Ron "And I keep a couple of Volkswagens in the trunk" Wanttaja

[RobertR237]

>
>>No, I don't believe that they owed any moral obligation to the US as a
>result
>>of WWII and I don't believe they had any direct obligation to support the US
>in
>>Iraq. I don't believe we should expect them to either. Then again, why
>should
>>we continue to maintain support for France and NATO if they are not going to
>>support us when needed?
>
>The question now, then is: Why does NATO even exist, anymore? It was
>intended
>to oppose the Warsaw Pact nations...many of which have *joined* NATO, now.
>Why
>continue to support thousands of US troops in Europe, especially with the
>personnel and financial drain of Iraq?
>

An excellent question! Why indeed? The only answer I can put forth is a big
brother style of morality that calls on the US to be the protector of the
world. Why should the US take on the job of liberating Iraq when we could
drain every drop of oil in the country and still not pay for the cost of the
war. It was not to directly protect our own national safety, Iraq posed no
direct threat to us. Iraq was far more of a threat to the middle east and
Europe than to us. We have taken on the role of world protector, even when
parts of the world don't seem to want our protection. We have become the big
brother that everybody hates for meddling in their business while hoping they
will be there if and when we want them.

>>What I do have a real problem with is their condemnation of the US when
>their
>>only reason was their own special interests. Those special interests may
>very
>>well have contributed to the problem by sidestepping the UN sactions and
>>funneling money and arms to Iraq.
>
>And I respect your right to hold such an opinion, especially as it is formed
>from your own analysis of the situation rather than from an unreasoning
>expectation that they "owe us one."
>
>Ron Wanttaja

The mistake our government continually seems to repeat is thinking that we can
buy the support of other countries with money and / or military support. While
the survivors of WWII may feel a debt to the US for our support and the
liberation of France, the generations that have come since do not see us as
liberators but as the bully on the block trying to impose our ideals and money
on them. That is the same problem we again face in Iraq.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[RobertR237]

>
>> M> I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
>> M> work on than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after
>> M> many miles and years of use) I will not comment on the other American
>> M> brands, because unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not
>> M> familiar with.
>>
>>OK apples with apples : BMW X5 / MB ML - absolute quality
>>Jeep Cherokee - not even close
>>
>>BMW Z3/4 / MB SLK absolute quality
>>Chrysler crossfire - rubbish, not even the SLK engine can save the design
>
>Wheee, doggies. This ain't a topic I'm all that interested in, but a
>co-worker
>of mine has one of the BMW Z series (think it's a Z3). His matter-of-fact
>description of the mechanical problems the car has, and the way the local BMW
>dealer just absolutely shafts him, has just about ensured that *I'll* never
>buy
>one. But by gosh, he just LOVES the car.
>
>Sure, I have had some troubles with my Oldsmobile. But then, I only paid
>$18K
>for it....
>
>Ron "And I keep a couple of Volkswagens in the trunk" Wanttaja
>

I owned an AUDI for about 10 years and would love to be able to afford another
one. It was by far the best car I have ever owned and gave me almost 200
thousand trouble free miles. The transmission finally gave out and I made the
mistake of trading it in for a Chrysler. Outside of the transmission, the car
will still in great condition.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Jim Carriere]

Morgans wrote:
> I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work on
> than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles and
> years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
> unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.

You must be forgetting about the front wheel drive GM V6 cars where
you have to remove an engine mount and partially lift up the engine
to change spark plugs. This ordinary maintenance is extraordinary!

Not to completely contradict you. I drive a Euro-snob car, and after
my own experience and reviewing those of owners of similar models, it
seems that Robert Bosch forgot how to build reliable electrical
components for a few years in the late 1990s.

I certainly don't know anything, but I feel safe stating that every
car company has come out with some pretty terrible stuff over the years.

Now what did this have to do with aviation? Choose wisely your ride
to the airport :)

[Morgans]

"Jim Carriere" > wrote in message
...
> Morgans wrote:
> > I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
work on
> > than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles
and
> > years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
> > unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.
>
> You must be forgetting about the front wheel drive GM V6 cars where
> you have to remove an engine mount and partially lift up the engine
> to change spark plugs. This ordinary maintenance is extraordinary!

Agreed. That was never intended as a V-6, then someone got the idea that
they could fit a V-6 in with a shoehorn. I had the 4 cylinder, manual
tranny of that line, 1st model year of the first GM front wheel drive, and
it was the most trouble free vehicle I ever owned. I beat it, and couldn't
kill it. If they offered the exact same car, new, today, I would buy one in
a heartbeat.
>
> Not to completely contradict you. I drive a Euro-snob car, and after
> my own experience and reviewing those of owners of similar models, it
> seems that Robert Bosch forgot how to build reliable electrical
> components for a few years in the late 1990s.
>
> I certainly don't know anything, but I feel safe stating that every
> car company has come out with some pretty terrible stuff over the years.

Agreed on that one, too.
>
> Now what did this have to do with aviation? Choose wisely your ride
> to the airport :)

True, nothing on topic, but I can not help commenting, when someone starts
American car bashing. The auto industry helps drive our economy. 1 in 10
jobs auto related, as I recall seeing. We would do well, as a country, to
support our own auto industry.
--
Jim in NC
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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[Roger]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:21:15 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Jim Carriere" > wrote in message
...
>> Morgans wrote:
>> > I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
>work on
>> > than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles
>and
>> > years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
>> > unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.
>>
>> You must be forgetting about the front wheel drive GM V6 cars where
>> you have to remove an engine mount and partially lift up the engine
>> to change spark plugs. This ordinary maintenance is extraordinary!
>
>Agreed. That was never intended as a V-6, then someone got the idea that
>they could fit a V-6 in with a shoehorn. I had the 4 cylinder, manual
>tranny of that line, 1st model year of the first GM front wheel drive, and
>it was the most trouble free vehicle I ever owned. I beat it, and couldn't
>kill it. If they offered the exact same car, new, today, I would buy one in
>a heartbeat.

Nothing new. I had a 62 Boneville Convertible that had to be raised
on a hoist, then a 4 X 4 set under the suspension of the left front
wheel. The car was then lowered about a foot. That was the only way
you could get the oil filter out.

My Neighbor has a 2 year old small Pontiac (think it's a Grand Am)
that requires lifting the engine to change plugs.

On my TA they put the electronic ignition down on the bottom of the
engine. Drive through much water and you had to replace the thing.
$850.

OTOH a friend purchased a Beamer a couple years back and he said it
spent more time being worked on than on the road.

Virtually all makes and models have a lemon from time-to-time.

Today's cars are probably the best built since they started making
cars (here or there)

BTW, my wife has a little Chrysler mini-mini van. It should turn over
200,000 miles this month. Nary a major problem, but it's beginning to
show its age.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>>
>> Not to completely contradict you. I drive a Euro-snob car, and after
>> my own experience and reviewing those of owners of similar models, it
>> seems that Robert Bosch forgot how to build reliable electrical
>> components for a few years in the late 1990s.
>>
>> I certainly don't know anything, but I feel safe stating that every
>> car company has come out with some pretty terrible stuff over the years.
>
>Agreed on that one, too.
>>
>> Now what did this have to do with aviation? Choose wisely your ride
>> to the airport :)
>
>True, nothing on topic, but I can not help commenting, when someone starts
>American car bashing. The auto industry helps drive our economy. 1 in 10
>jobs auto related, as I recall seeing. We would do well, as a country, to
>support our own auto industry.

[Del Rawlins]

On 8 Nov 2004 22:39:28 -0800, (Rich) wrote:

>ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message >...
>
>> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to save
>> your worthless asses one more time.
>
>I believe the French came to our aid first during the American Revolution.

That particular debt has been paid in full, with interest.


================================================== ==
Del Rawlins--
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply

[Corky Scott]

On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:02:39 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work on
>than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles and
>years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
>unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.

In another life, I was an auto mechanic. The dealer I worked for sold
Chryslers, Mazdas and Subarus. The Chryslers would tear you up. All
the engine compartment sheet metal was turned UP so the sharp edges
were ready to grab you. Popping loose a tough nut was tantamount to a
blood sacrifice. Same thing under the dash.

The first Subaru's came out and I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.
All the sheet metal was turned under, my cuts and scratches began to
heal! The starter sat right up on top of the engine! You could get
to it by just leaning in a bit. Everything on those early engines was
easy to get to, which was a good thing as we seemed to need to get to
them frequently.

The engine could be popped out in 15 minutes. Our record was 12
minutes. When we removed them, we just paired up. One guy to each
side. We'd lean down, grab the exhaust system which looped out the
front and rear of each cylinderhead (flat four like a water cooled
VW), yank back and forth then move it forward and lift it out of the
engine compartment. Piece of cake.

They aren't like that anymore, but they don't require removing all the
time anymore either.

Corky Scott

[Roger]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:50:10 -0500, Corky Scott
> wrote:

>On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:02:39 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:
>
<snip>
>In another life, I was an auto mechanic. The dealer I worked for sold
>Chryslers, Mazdas and Subarus. The Chryslers would tear you up. All
>the engine compartment sheet metal was turned UP so the sharp edges
>were ready to grab you. Popping loose a tough nut was tantamount to a
>blood sacrifice. Same thing under the dash.

I had one of those. Dodge Shelby.
It got to the point where I was almost afraid to open the hood.<:-))
They apparently used the same length, metal taping screws nearly
every where.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Corky Scott

[geo]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Richard,
>
>> Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>>
>> Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>>
>
> Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
> from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?
>
> The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...
>

Maybe they're all from Mississippi.

[Roger]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:01:10 GMT, "geo" > wrote:

>"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
>> Richard,
>>
>>> Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>>>
>>> Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>>>
>>
>> Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
>> from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?
>>
>> The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...
>>
>
>Maybe they're all from Mississippi.

Hey! You guys are off topic. We were talking about cars<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>

[Barnyard BOb -]

>I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work on
>than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles and
>years of use) - Morgans
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

CORVAIR.

GM.

Unsafe @ Any Speed...

but, easy to work on.

Hmmmm.
If you say so, Jim. <g>


Barnyard BOb -

[Jerry Springer]

Barnyard BOb - wrote:
>>I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work on
>>than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles and
>>years of use) - Morgans
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> CORVAIR.
>
> GM.
>
> Unsafe @ Any Speed...
>
> but, easy to work on.
>
> Hmmmm.
> If you say so, Jim. <g>
>
>
> Barnyard BOb -


Noting easier to work on than my 1967 Camaro. :-) BTW Nader ruined the
reputation of a neat little car with his stupid book. He was as stupid
about that as he was thinking he could become president.

Jerry

[Ron Natalie]

Barnyard BOb - wrote:

>
> CORVAIR.
>
> GM.
>
> Unsafe @ Any Speed...
>
> but, easy to work on.

Well just about any car of that era was easy. The cars were large and
in many cases you could even stand inside the engine compartment. There
was less crap hanging off the engines as well.

[Gig Giacona]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Barnyard BOb - wrote:
>
>>
>> CORVAIR.
>>
>> GM.
>>
>> Unsafe @ Any Speed...
>>
>> but, easy to work on.
>
> Well just about any car of that era was easy. The cars were large and
> in many cases you could even stand inside the engine compartment. There
> was less crap hanging off the engines as well.

Easiest car to work on was without a doubt the Triumph Sptfire. All sheet
metal forward of the firewall tilted up. You could use the front tires as
seats. Good thing to because you had to work on it alot.

[jls]

"Gig Giacoma" > wrote in message [...]
> Easiest car to work on was without a doubt the Triumph Sptfire. All sheet
> metal forward of the firewall tilted up. You could use the front tires as
> seats. Good thing to because you had to work on it alot.

Aircraft engines are easy. Just twist the camlocs and pull the cowl.
You can sit on a highstool, or a low stool, or ride around supine on a
creeper. You get to play with your Snap-Ons with the universal-jointed
sockets.

[Ron Natalie]

jls wrote:
> "Gig Giacoma" > wrote in message [...]
>
>>Easiest car to work on was without a doubt the Triumph Sptfire. All sheet
>>metal forward of the firewall tilted up. You could use the front tires as
>>seats. Good thing to because you had to work on it alot.
>
>
> Aircraft engines are easy. Just twist the camlocs and pull the cowl.
> You can sit on a highstool, or a low stool, or ride around supine on a
> creeper. You get to play with your Snap-Ons with the universal-jointed
> sockets.
>
>
You've obviously never worked on a Navion with it's original mount.
While the gull wing doors swing open leting you get to the top and
sides of the engine easily, the nose bowl and the bottom cowl is
a bit involved to remove. My mechanic cursed a lot when she had to
get to something on the bottom side.

[jls]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> jls wrote:
> > "Gig Giacoma" > wrote in message [...]
> >
> >>Easiest car to work on was without a doubt the Triumph Sptfire. All
sheet
> >>metal forward of the firewall tilted up. You could use the front tires
as
> >>seats. Good thing to because you had to work on it alot.
> >
> >
> > Aircraft engines are easy. Just twist the camlocs and pull the cowl.
> > You can sit on a highstool, or a low stool, or ride around supine on a
> > creeper. You get to play with your Snap-Ons with the
universal-jointed
> > sockets.
> >
> >
> You've obviously never worked on a Navion with it's original mount.
> While the gull wing doors swing open leting you get to the top and
> sides of the engine easily, the nose bowl and the bottom cowl is
> a bit involved to remove. My mechanic cursed a lot when she had to
> get to something on the bottom side.

True. I have never worked on a Navion. However, did pull the vacuum pump
on an Alon Aircoupe a few days ago. Pulling the nosebowl and cowl was pure
hell.

[Matt Whiting]

Barnyard BOb - wrote:

>>I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work on
>>than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles and
>>years of use) - Morgans
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> CORVAIR.
>
> GM.
>
> Unsafe @ Any Speed...
>
> but, easy to work on.
>
> Hmmmm.
> If you say so, Jim. <g>
>
>
> Barnyard BOb -

I thought better of you than to rely on Ralphie Nader. How far you have
fallen. :-)

Matt

[Morgans]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Barnyard BOb - wrote:
>
> >>I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
work on
> >>than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles
and
> >>years of use) - Morgans
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > CORVAIR.
> >
> > GM.
> >
> > Unsafe @ Any Speed...
> >
> > but, easy to work on.
> >
> > Hmmmm.
> > If you say so, Jim. <g>
> >
> >
> > Barnyard BOb -
>
> I thought better of you than to rely on Ralphie Nader. How far you have
> fallen. :-)
>
> Matt
>
Amen, brother. I was not even gong to dignify the comment with a response.

Bob, think pre '63.
--
Jim in NC


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[Barnyard BOb -]

On 10 Nov 2004 04:12:12 GMT, (RobertR237)
wrote:

>I owned an AUDI for about 10 years and would love to be able to afford another
>one. It was by far the best car I have ever owned and gave me almost 200
>thousand trouble free miles. The transmission finally gave out and I made the
>mistake of trading it in for a Chrysler. Outside of the transmission, the car
>will still in great condition.
>
>
>Bob Reed
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I bought an AFFORDABLE Mazda 626 new in 1991
and still drive it daily.

It ain't no Audi and for that I am glad. It was a mere
$12,000 and is still running strong with 195,347+ miles.
The mileage is NOT correct. ADD 3% for oversized tires.

This vehicle has survived my wife, two kids and me.
Each of us has bent the sheet metal at one time
or another. I mangled the front end while deer hunting.
For that, the insurance company gave me $1400.
Although, I spent only $50 to repair the damage to
my satisfaction, I still recommend using a gun instead.

This vehicle has never needed a front end alignment
or a pro tune up. I installed new plugs and ignition
wires about four years ago for less than $20. It still
delivers over 31 mpg on the road and 25 in town.

New radial tires were just installed along with new
windshield wiper blades, so I'm good to go for at
least another 80,000 miles.

As they say....
YMMV.

Barnyard BOb -

[Barnyard BOb -]

>Noting easier to work on than my 1967 Camaro. :-) BTW Nader ruined the
>reputation of a neat little car with his stupid book. He was as stupid
>about that as he was thinking he could become president.
>
>Jerry
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I liked the Corvair a lot, but...
You are in "kill the messenger" mode, Jerry.

Nader and Consumer Reports magazine reported the truth.

The courts not only agreed with Nader, but forced GM to
publicly apologize for their attempts to discredit him instead
of timely fixing the_early_Corvair handling problems.

In the final analysis.....
If reporting the shortcomings killed the Corvair, it is fair
to say that GM had nobody to blame but themselves
given their **** poor behavior concerning the matter.


Barnyard BOb - and that's the truth

[Ed Sullivan]

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:16:35 -0600, Barnyard BOb -
> wrote:

>
>
>>Noting easier to work on than my 1967 Camaro. :-) BTW Nader ruined the
>>reputation of a neat little car with his stupid book. He was as stupid
>>about that as he was thinking he could become president.
>>
>>Jerry
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I liked the Corvair a lot, but...
>You are in "kill the messenger" mode, Jerry.
>
>Nader and Consumer Reports magazine reported the truth.
>
>The courts not only agreed with Nader, but forced GM to
>publicly apologize for their attempts to discredit him instead
>of timely fixing the_early_Corvair handling problems.
>
>In the final analysis.....
>If reporting the shortcomings killed the Corvair, it is fair
>to say that GM had nobody to blame but themselves
>given their **** poor behavior concerning the matter.
>
>
>Barnyard BOb - and that's the truth
>
I had a Corvair Monza and liked it after I installed a sway
bar.Originally it was loosey goosey as hell going straight down the
freeway, but cornered like a champ in the mountains. That's been a
long time. It could have been been that particular Monza or me, who
knows.

Ed Sullivan, the aged

[Bob Chilcoat]

Not that particular Monza. The early swing-axle Corvairs were very
squirrelly near the limit, and were very sensitive to proper tire pressure
front to rear. The real problem with the Corvair was that the average buyer
had no clue that it was important it was to keep 35 psi in the back and 15
psi in the front (IIRC). In addition, the high roll center of a
conventional swing axle caused a "jacking" effect that causes the outside
rear tire to tuck under. The sudden change in contact patch geometry causes
an equally sudden increase in slip angle and the car tries to pass itself .
"Hey, there goes a car just like mine!" There were several ways to fix
this. Most were based on a "negative" anti-roll bar. Either a more or less
conventional anti-roll torsion bar but with one end facing forward and other
facing backward so that it had no effect on roll stiffness, but a big effect
on spring rate, or a leaf spring pivoted at the center that did the same
thing. The John Fitch stabilizer was the latter type. I can't remember who
offered the S-bend torsion bar.

Had GM put stiffer shocks on the car, a lot of its problems would have
disappeared, but it was assumed people wanted a soft ride. I found that on
my unmodified '62, by just putting Gabriel adjustable shocks on the rear and
setting them to the stiffest setting, the car became very docile. I could
throw the thing completely sideways (in a parking lot - I'm not completely
crazy) on dry pavement and still catch it and recover. Keeping up with the
five turns lock-to-lock of the steering while doing that was a different
matter, however. Unless one could afford the Fitch shortened steering arms
that sped up the steering (I couldn't) you developed a technique that
involved throwing the wheel in the direction you wanted it to go, letting it
spin freely a couple or so turns, and then catching it again when it got to
the right point. Looked like hell, but you could maneuver the car very
quickly on winding roads if you were so inclined. The '65 Monza (with what
was essentially Corvette rear suspension) I bought later was a completely
different car. Very well controlled. I really wanted a Yenko Stinger, but
ended up with a 356C Porsche instead. Ah, nostalgia...

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

"Ed Sullivan" > wrote in message
...
> >
> I had a Corvair Monza and liked it after I installed a sway
> bar.Originally it was loosey goosey as hell going straight down the
> freeway, but cornered like a champ in the mountains. That's been a
> long time. It could have been been that particular Monza or me, who
> knows.
>
> Ed Sullivan, the aged
>

[Morgans]

"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote

The early swing-axle Corvairs were very
> squirrelly near the limit, and were very sensitive to proper tire pressure
> front to rear. The real problem with the Corvair was that the average
buyer
> had no clue that it was important it was to keep 35 psi in the back and 15
> psi in the front (IIRC). > Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
>

I had a '68 110 HP, and loved it. I constantly kept the air pressure
monitored, and had it so the steering was just a bit loose. (oversteer) I
knew of one particular curvy road that I drove often, that NO ONE, in
anything, could keep up with me. What a blast! I wonder what it would have
been like with radial tires!

There is another thread (can't remember if it is here, or the pilot group)
about replacing a pushrod seal. My dad, a mechanical engineer, made a tool,
with an offset round piece on a rod (like a locking telescoping pole) that
could be inserted into the tube, twist it to lock onto the tube, and pull it
out through the head, replace the O-rings, and slide the pushrod tube back
into place. Wa-la, no stinky oil smell in the heater. We did it every year
in the fall, just to keep things nice and clean.
--
Jim in NC


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[Ron Webb]

You just listed a lot of wars, most of which the French lost, many with a
huge number of casualties.

See http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html for a more exhaustive
list.

Did you intend that to show French prowess as warriors, or what?

The French have not Always been cowards, it's just that anyone who didn't
run like hell was killed in WW1 before he could reproduce.






>
> Since then, the French (founder member of NATO) have fought in
>
> WW I
> France - 1.3 million troops dead (16% of all it's troops) + 40 thousand
> civilians (also see http://www.war1418.com/battleverdun/index.htm)
> US 126 thousand troops dead (3% of all it's troops)
> Russia 1.7 million troops dead (14% of all it's troops) + 3 million
> civilians dead.
>
> WW II (Including fighting the Japanese in Indochina)
> France 210 thousand troops dead & 350 thousand civilians dead.
> US 292 thousand troops dead & 6 thousand civilians dead
> USSR 8.7 million troops dead & 17 million civilians dead.
>
> France has also fought in, kept the peace in, or evacuated civilians
from -
>
> Gulf War I
> Afghanistan
> Bosnia
> Kosovo
> Chad
> Haiti
> Sudan
> Ivory Coast
> Liberia
> Rwanda
> East Timor
> (DR) Congo
> Zaire
> Franco-Austrian war
> Franco-Prussian war
> 25 years of various battles in Syria.
> Numerous battles in Indochina/SE Asia
>
> Off the top of my head, the only war that I can think of, that France
hasn't
> been involved in, is the current cluster-fk in Iraq.
>
> The USA has lost about 800,000-900,000 troops (combat & non-combat) in
it's
> entire history. France los about that many in just 5 months of 1916.
France
> has paid it's price, fighting for freedom.
>
> P.S. I'm not French.
>
>

[Barnyard BOb -]

"Morgans" wrote:

>Wa-la, no stinky oil smell in the heater.
==============================

VOILA, more re-enforcement of.....


Stupid Americans!

Stupid... Stupid... STUPID!!!



Barnyard BOb - embarrassed American

[Morgans]

"Barnyard BOb -" > wrote > VOILA, more re-enforcement
of.....
>
>
> Stupid Americans!
>
> Stupid... Stupid... STUPID!!!
>
> Barnyard BOb - embarrassed American
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

BoB, Don't you know anything? A voila is a musical instrument! <g>

Wait for it......

Dejavu, all over again! ;-)
--
Jim in NC


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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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[Barnyard BOb -]

>BoB, Don't you know anything? A voila is a musical instrument! <g>
>
>Wait for it......
>
>Dejavu, all over again! ;-)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Try....

DEJA VU <---<<<

Stupid Americans!

Stupid... Stupid... STUPID!!!


Pssst,
What about.....

vuja de - the distinct impression that some-
thing has never been experienced before.



Barnyard BOb - Internet speeling coach

[Morgans]

"Barnyard BOb -" > wrote > >Wait for it......
>
> Pssst,
> What about.....
>
> vuja de - the distinct impression that some-
> thing has never been experienced before.
>
>
>
> Barnyard BOb - Internet speeling coach

*Chuckle*


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[Ron Wanttaja]

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 07:31:37 -0600, Barnyard BOb - > wrote:

>Pssst,
>What about.....
>
>vuja de - the distinct impression that some-
>thing has never been experienced before.

.... Or how about "Deja Moo," the feeling that you've heard this bullsh*t
before.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[B2431]

>Stupid... Stupid... STUPID!!! __________-+__
>From: Ron Wanttaja
>Date: 11/21/2004 10:44 Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 07:31:37 -0600, Barnyard BOb - >
>wrote:
>
>>Pssst,
>>What about.....
>>
>>vuja de - the distinct impression that some-
>>thing has never been experienced before.
>
>... Or how about "Deja Moo," the feeling that you've heard this bullsh*t
>before.... :-)
>
>Ron Wanttaja

Deja baa, the feeling you have just been following the crowd.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Doug Carter]

"Rufio" > wrote in message news:<7R6kd.246522$a85.209030@fed1read04>...

> France has also fought in, kept the peace in, or evacuated civilians from -

The French stayed out of Iraq because their corrupt government
officials were bought and paid for with Iraq "oil for food" money,
*not* because the French people are cowards.

[Paul Lee]

(Doug Carter) wrote in message >...
> "Rufio" > wrote in message news:<7R6kd.246522$a85.209030@fed1read04>...
>
> > France has also fought in, kept the peace in, or evacuated civilians from -
>
> The French stayed out of Iraq because their corrupt government
> officials were bought and paid for with Iraq "oil for food" money,
> *not* because the French people are cowards.

FYI: Government corruption rating scores are given at
http://www.icgg.org/
(http://www.icgg.org/downloads/University_Press_Release_04.pdf) for
different countries. France 2004 corruption index is 22 - down from 21
in 2000. For USA it is 17 - down from 14 in 2000. The best score it
given to Finland at 1. The worst possible score is 145 for Bangladesh
tied with Haiti.

[Mark Jones]

And this has what to do with ballooning? Hang-gliding? Homebuilt? IFR?



"Many ages ago our fathers were living in dens and caves.
Their bodies, their low foreheads, were covered with hair.
They were eating berries, roots, bark and vermin. They were
fond of snakes and raw fish. They discovered fire and,
probably by accident, learned how to cause it by friction.
They found how to warm themselves --- to fight the frost and
storm. They fashioned clubs and rude weapons of stone with
which they killed the larger beasts and now and then each
other. Slowly, painfully, almost imperceptibly they
advanced. They crawled and stumbled, staggered and struggled
toward the light. To them the world was unknown. On every
hand was the mysterious, the sinister, the hurtful. The
forests were filled with monsters, and the darkness was
crowded with ghosts, devils, and fiendish gods.

These poor wretches were the slaves of fear, the sport of
dreams.

Now and then, one rose a little above his fellows -- used
his senses -- the little reason that he had -- found
something new -- some better way. Then the people killed him
and afterward knelt with reverence at his grave. Then
another thinker gave his thought -- was murdered -- another
tomb became sacred -- another step was taken in advance. And
so through countless years of ignorance and cruelty -- of
thought and crime -- of murder and worship, of heroism,
suffering, and self-denial, the race has reached the heights
where now we stand.

Looking back over the long and devious roads that lie
between the barbarism of the past and the civilization of
to-day, thinking of the centuries that rolled like waves
between these distant shores, we can form some idea of what
our fathers suffered -- of the mistakes they made -- some
idea of their ignorance, their stupidity -- and some idea of
their sense, their goodness, their heroism.

It is a long road from the savage to the scientist -- from
a den to a mansion -- from leaves to clothes -- from a
flickering rush to the arc-light -- from a hammer of stone
to the modern mill -- a long distance from the pipe of Pan
to the violin -- to the orchestra -- from a floating log to
the steamship -- from a sickle to a reaper -- from a hand
loom to a Jacquard, a Jacquard that weaves fair forms and
wondrous flowers beyond Arachne's utmost dream -- from a few
hieroglyphics on the skins of beasts, on bricks of clay --
to a printing press, to a library -- a long distance from
the messenger, traveling on foot, to the electric spark --
from knives and tools of stone to those of steel -- a long
distance from sand to telescopes -- from echo to the
phonograph -- a long way from the trumpet to the telephone
-- from the dried sinews of beasts to the cables of steel --
from the oar to the propeller -- a long distance from
slavery to freedom --from appearance to fact -- from fear to
reason.

And yet this distance has been traveled by the human race.

Whom, what, should we thank?

...Knowing something of the history of man --- here on this
day that has been set apart for thanksgiving, I most
reverently thank the good men, the good women of the past, I
thank the kind fathers, the loving mothers of the savage
days.

I thank the father who spoke the first gentle word, the
mother who first smiled upon her babe. I thank the first
true friend. I thank the savages who hunted and fished that
they and their babes might live. I thank those who
cultivated the ground and changed the forests into farms --
those who built rude homes and watched the faces of their
happy children in the glow of fireside flames -- those who
domesticated horses, cattle and sheep -- those who invented
wheels and looms and taught us to spin and weave -- those
who by cultivation changed wild grasses into wheat and corn,
changed bitter things to fruit, and worthless weeds to
flowers, that sowed within our souls the seeds of art.

I thank the poets of the dawn -- the tellers of legends --
the makers of myths -- the singers of joy and grief, of hope
and love. I thank the artists who chiseled forms in stone
and wrought with light and shade the face of man. I thank
the philosophers, the thinkers, who taught us how to use our
minds in the great search for truth. I thank the astronomers
who explored the heavens, told us the secrets of the stars,
the glories of the constellations -- the geologists who
found the story of the world in fossil forms, in memoranda
kept in ancient rocks, in lines written by waves, by frost
and fire -- the anatomists who sought in muscle, nerve and
bone for all the mysteries of life -- the chemists who
unraveled Nature's work that they might learn her art....

I thank the great inventors -- those who gave us movable
type and the press, by means of which great thoughts and all
discovered facts are made immortal -- the inventors of
engines, of the great ships, of the railways, the cables and
telegraphs. I thank the great mechanics, the workers in iron
and steel, in wood and stone. I thank the inventors and
makers of the numberless things of use and luxury.

I thank the industrious men, the loving mothers, the useful
women. They are the benefactors of our race.

I thank the honest men and women who have expressed their
sincere thoughts, who have been true to themselves and have
preserved the veracity of their souls.

I thank the thinkers of Greece and Rome, Zeno and Epicurus,
Cicero and Lucretius. I thank Bruno, the bravest, and
Spinoza, the subtlest of men.

I thank Voltaire, whose thought lighted a flame in the
brain of man, unlocked the doors of superstition's cells and
gave liberty to many millions of his fellow-men. Voltaire --
a name that sheds light. Voltaire -- a star that
superstition's darkness cannot quench.

I thank the great poets -- the dramatists. I thank Homer
and Aeschylus, and I thank Shakespeare above them all. I
thank Burns for the heart- throbs he changed into songs, for
his lyrics of flame. I thank Shelley for this Skylark, Keats
for his Grecian Urn and Byron for his Prisoner of Chillon. I
thank the great novelists. I thank the great sculptors. I
thank the unknown man who moulded and chiseled the Venus de
Milo. I thank the great painters. I thank Rembrandt and
Corot. I thank all who have adorned, enriched and ennobled
life -- all who have created the great, the noble, the
heroic and artistic ideals.

I thank the statesmen who have preserved the rights of man.
I thank Thomas Paine whose genius sowed the seeds of
independence in the hearts of '76. I thank the founders, the
defenders, the saviors of the Republic. I thank Ericsson,
the greatest mechanic of his century, for the monitor. I
thank Lincoln for the Proclamation. I thank them all -- the
living and the dead.

I thank the great scientists -- those who have reached the
foundation, the bed-rock -- who have built upon facts.

The scientists never persecuted, never imprisoned their
fellow-men. They forged no chains, built no dungeons,
erected no scaffolds -- tore no flesh with red hot pincers
-- dislocated no joints on racks -- crushed no bones in iron
boots -- extinguished no eyes -- tore out no tongues and
lighted no fagots. They were only intelligent and honest
men. They did not appeal to force or fear. They did not
regard men as slaves to be ruled by torture, by lash and
chain, nor as children to be cheated with illusions, rocked
in the cradle of an idiot creed and soothed by a lullaby of
lies.

They did not wound -- they healed. They did not kill --
they lengthened life. They did not enslave -- they broke the
chains and made men free. They sowed the seeds of knowledge,
and many millions have reaped, are reaping, and will reap,
the harvest of joy.

I thank Humboldt and Helmholtz and Haeckel and Buchner. I
thank Lamarck and Darwin -- Darwin who revolutionized the
thought of the intellectual world. I thank Huxley and
Spencer. I thank the scientists one and all.

I thank the heroes, the destroyers of prejudice and fear --
the dethroners of savage gods -- the extinguishers of hate's
eternal fire -- the heroes, the breakers of chains -- the
heroes who fought and fell on countless fields -- the heroes
whose dungeons became shrines -- the heroes whose blood made
scaffolds sacred -- the heroes, the apostles of reason, the
disciples of truth, the soldiers of freedom -- the heroes
who held high the holy torch and filled the world with
light.

With all my heart I thank them all."

--- ROBERT G INGERSOLL, 1897

[Excerpted from Volume IV of the 12-Volume Dresden Edition
of Robert Ingersoll's writings, The Dresden Publishing
Company, New York, 1902.]

[Tex Houston]

"Paul Lee" > wrote in message
om...
> FYI: Government corruption rating scores are given at
> http://www.icgg.org/
> (http://www.icgg.org/downloads/University_Press_Release_04.pdf) for
> different countries. France 2004 corruption index is 22 - down from 21
> in 2000. For USA it is 17 - down from 14 in 2000. The best score it
> given to Finland at 1. The worst possible score is 145 for Bangladesh
> tied with Haiti.

Tell ma again where this has a rec.aviation balloon content?

Tex

[Tex Houston]

"Mark Jones" > wrote in message
...
> And this has what to do with ballooning? Hang-gliding? Homebuilt? IFR?

Damned nonsense and OFF TOPIC, I agree.

Tex

[Paul Lee]

"Tex Houston" > wrote in message >...
> "Paul Lee" > wrote in message
> om...
> > FYI: Government corruption rating scores are given at
> > http://www.icgg.org/
> > (http://www.icgg.org/downloads/University_Press_Release_04.pdf) for
> > different countries. France 2004 corruption index is 22 - down from 21
> > in 2000. For USA it is 17 - down from 14 in 2000. The best score it
> > given to Finland at 1. The worst possible score is 145 for Bangladesh
> > tied with Haiti.
>
> Tell ma again where this has a rec.aviation balloon content?
>
> Tex

You are right. These threads should not be in these groups.
I just reacted to unfair ethnic bashing. That was my first posting
in the thread and I did not start this thread. So why pick on me?
However, if I was you, I would not get my baloon parts from Bangladesh
or Haiti.