GPS switched S for N!

[Cub Driver]

The other day I flew up to Alton Bay. While over the bay, but still
flying north, I went go-to my waypoint for Hampton airport. (Not the
airport waypoint in the database, but one I programmed in, and that
puts me over the start of the 45 from the west.)

When I got up to the mouth of the bay, I turned around and followed
the bug back south. After half an hour I realized that I was west of
my expected track. Indeed I was going almost precisely south instead
of SSE.

What's more, my destination was 5,900 miles distant, and the time to
get there was 84 hours. The day was milky, so I couldn't see anything
on the horizon, so I turned SE until I came over US 4, then followed
that back to the seacoast.

When I got home, I scanned out and out on the map, to find that my
waypoint was now located in the Andes on the Argentinian side of the
Chile-Argentina border. Still, the coordinates looked very familar. On
a hunch, I changed the S to an N, and behold! The waypoint moved back
to the seacoast of New Hampshire.

What happened?

And could it happen to the waypoints in the database?

(Garmin 296)

thanks!


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
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[Stubby]

Cub Driver wrote:

> The other day I flew up to Alton Bay. While over the bay, but still
> flying north, I went go-to my waypoint for Hampton airport. (Not the
> airport waypoint in the database, but one I programmed in, and that
> puts me over the start of the 45 from the west.)
>
> When I got up to the mouth of the bay, I turned around and followed
> the bug back south. After half an hour I realized that I was west of
> my expected track. Indeed I was going almost precisely south instead
> of SSE.
>
> What's more, my destination was 5,900 miles distant, and the time to
> get there was 84 hours. The day was milky, so I couldn't see anything
> on the horizon, so I turned SE until I came over US 4, then followed
> that back to the seacoast.
>
> When I got home, I scanned out and out on the map, to find that my
> waypoint was now located in the Andes on the Argentinian side of the
> Chile-Argentina border. Still, the coordinates looked very familar. On
> a hunch, I changed the S to an N, and behold! The waypoint moved back
> to the seacoast of New Hampshire.
>
> What happened?
>
> And could it happen to the waypoints in the database?

Garmin doesn't have the best interfaces. Both the -12 and -60CS that I
use seem very prone to coordinate input errors. I frequently seem to
get N/S switch problem when defining a waypoint.

Another problem could be that your GPS is not initialized properly.
There is an automatic init that takes awhile and a manual init that
requires you to tell it what state you are in. If you get impatient and
abort the init, I'll bet you can wind up with a bad location, maybe on
the wrong side of the equator.

[Jose]

> When I got up to the mouth of the bay, I turned around and followed
> the bug back south. [...] my destination was 5,900 miles distant, and the time to
> get there was 84 hours.
>
> When I got home, I scanned out and out on the map, to find that my
> waypoint was now located in the Andes on the Argentinian side of the
> Chile-Argentina border.
>
> What happened?

What happened was precisely why I am so vocal about paper charts and
against reliance on this newfangled gizmo thang. (and horrified at the
thought of central computer control of airplane systems)

As a cub driver you are probably with me on this. I've had my home
airport move to the other side of the country several times. Dunno why.

I use 'em when I hafta, and they're cool when they work, but I've never
seen the blue screen of death on a sectional!

Jose
--
My other car is up my nose.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Paul Hirose]

I have never had a corrupted GPS waypoint, even when the
battery was so exhausted the receiver wouldn't turn on. But I have
experienced some bad lock-ons. The receiver seemed to be working
normally, but its velocity and distance to go were obviously wrong.
(Turning the unit off for a moment cleared the problem.)

A lot of GPS troubles are detectable that way. Don't just follow the
receiver's steering bug. Crosscheck its readouts, same as you
crosscheck your instruments.


"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> The other day I flew up to Alton Bay. While over the bay, but still
> flying north, I went go-to my waypoint for Hampton airport. (Not the
> airport waypoint in the database, but one I programmed in, and that
> puts me over the start of the 45 from the west.)
>
> When I got up to the mouth of the bay, I turned around and followed
> the bug back south. After half an hour I realized that I was west of
> my expected track. Indeed I was going almost precisely south instead
> of SSE.
>
> What's more, my destination was 5,900 miles distant, and the time to
> get there was 84 hours. The day was milky, so I couldn't see
> anything
> on the horizon, so I turned SE until I came over US 4, then followed
> that back to the seacoast.
>
> When I got home, I scanned out and out on the map, to find that my
> waypoint was now located in the Andes on the Argentinian side of the
> Chile-Argentina border. Still, the coordinates looked very familar.
> On
> a hunch, I changed the S to an N, and behold! The waypoint moved
> back
> to the seacoast of New Hampshire.
>
> What happened?
>
> And could it happen to the waypoints in the database?
>
> (Garmin 296)

--
Paul Hirose >
To reply by email remove INVALID

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:
> As a cub driver you are probably with me on this. I've had my home
> airport move to the other side of the country several times. Dunno why.
>
> I use 'em when I hafta, and they're cool when they work, but I've never
> seen the blue screen of death on a sectional!


I've never seen the blue screen on a GPS either. I've used Garmin
handhelds for years without a single problem, and now use a
Windows-based PDA system for navigation without a problem--both are far
superior to charts for both navigation and situational awareness.
However, I always have charts on board so that if there is ever a
problem, I can revert to paper. Attempting to resist technology in the
cockpit is a losing battle.


JKG

[Michael 182]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...

>
> What happened was precisely why I am so vocal about paper charts and
> against reliance on this newfangled gizmo thang.

lol - If you are in the majority of the posters on this newsgroup you fly a
single engine plane with 1970's mechanical technology. The GPS is probably
the single best technology on your plane. In any case, if it concerns you,
you can get a backup GPS for about the cost of a tank of gas. This "railing
against technology" stuff is getting pretty old...

Michael

[Jose]

> with 1970's mechanical technology.

With proven technology. :)

Jose
--
My other car is up my nose.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Michael 182]

"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
>> with 1970's mechanical technology.
>
> With proven technology. :)

Yeah, proven to have dozens of moving parts that wear out and need to be
inspected annually, carbs that freeze, a pitot static system that clogs and
has to be checked every two years, probably some Narco comms that work every
third Sunday...

I have nothing against flying these planes - I fly one all the time. But I
don't kid myself that, after the pilot, the mechanical systems are the weak
link.


Michael

[Jose]

> Yeah, proven to have dozens of moving parts that wear out and need to be
> inspected annually, carbs that freeze, a pitot static system that clogs and
> has to be checked every two years, probably some Narco comms that work every
> third Sunday...

.... none of which have ever painted a purple line to Austrailia for me
to follow.

:) Jose
--
My other car is up my nose.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Guillermo]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
> > When I got up to the mouth of the bay, I turned around and followed
> > the bug back south. [...] my destination was 5,900 miles distant, and
the time to
> > get there was 84 hours.
> >
> > When I got home, I scanned out and out on the map, to find that my
> > waypoint was now located in the Andes on the Argentinian side of the
> > Chile-Argentina border.
> >
> > What happened?
>
> What happened was precisely why I am so vocal about paper charts and
> against reliance on this newfangled gizmo thang. (and horrified at the
> thought of central computer control of airplane systems)
>
> As a cub driver you are probably with me on this. I've had my home
> airport move to the other side of the country several times. Dunno why.

I use a KLN 94, but when I input coordinates and waypoints, I always
crosscheck the distances and bearing with a chart to see if everything makes
sense. Computerized systems do what we tell them to do, which is not
necessarily what we want them to do ;).

[George Patterson]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
>
> Attempting to resist technology in the
> cockpit is a losing battle.

If you own your own aircraft, it's very easy; just don't buy it. What's a losing
battle is the attempt to convince other pilots not to rely on this neat
"newfangled gizmo."

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article <nj2ue.645$Z.549@trndny05>,
George Patterson > wrote:
> > Attempting to resist technology in the
> > cockpit is a losing battle.
>
> If you own your own aircraft, it's very easy; just don't buy it. What's a
> losing
> battle is the attempt to convince other pilots not to rely on this neat
> "newfangled gizmo."


I'm not sure what you're saying. The fact is, GA cockpits are moving
toward glass. Navigation is moving away from terrestrial navigation and
toward satellites... and the GPS system has been around for a very long
time. Sure, you can stick with legacy technology, but pretty soon
you're either going to be forced to upgrade, or be content to fly around
with limited navigational capability. Cockpit technology isn't going
back to simple transistors and vacuum tubes, it's moving toward a
PC-driven environment, like it or not.

If I were a CFI, I would NEVER discourage the use of technology in the
cockpit. It enhances safety tremendously, and even saves lives. It
improves operational efficiency. It is part of using "all available
information" in order to safely complete the flight. Using technology
like a GPS isn't "required," but those who have access to it and don't
use it are foolhardy in my opinion.



JKG

[Dave Stadt]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
> > When I got up to the mouth of the bay, I turned around and followed
> > the bug back south. [...] my destination was 5,900 miles distant, and
the time to
> > get there was 84 hours.
> >
> > When I got home, I scanned out and out on the map, to find that my
> > waypoint was now located in the Andes on the Argentinian side of the
> > Chile-Argentina border.
> >
> > What happened?
>
> What happened was precisely why I am so vocal about paper charts and
> against reliance on this newfangled gizmo thang. (and horrified at the
> thought of central computer control of airplane systems)

I find I make many more mistakes than than these newfangled gizmos that have
been around now for 15 years. What bothers me is pilots relying on old
technology when they could increase their situational awareness many times
over if they took advantage of current extremely reliable technology.

[Jose]

> If I were a CFI, I would NEVER discourage the use of technology in the
> cockpit.

There's a difference between the use of technology and the =reliance= on
it. I agree that we should all be able to =use= the available
technology. However, I see too many pilots, especially new ones, that
=rely= on it to such an extent that they could not navigage without it.

=This= is dangerous.

Jose
--
My other car is up my nose.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Chris G.]

In the Cherokee and the C150 I train in, there are some ancient
(1997-era) Magellan GPS units that have VERY limited capabilities and
even more outdated databases that can't be updated. I don't have any
trust in that technology. I do trust the VOR(s) though. I trust the
compass for dead reckoning. Frankly, I don't want to know much about
that GPS as I have no intent on using it. I would rather master the
"legacy" skills needed to navigate using terrestrial navigation
techniques. I'll add technology later as I can and desire to.

Chris


Jose wrote:
>> If I were a CFI, I would NEVER discourage the use of technology in the
>> cockpit.
>
>
> There's a difference between the use of technology and the =reliance= on
> it. I agree that we should all be able to =use= the available
> technology. However, I see too many pilots, especially new ones, that
> =rely= on it to such an extent that they could not navigage without it.
>
> =This= is dangerous.
>
> Jose

[Cub Driver]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:56:32 -0400, "Guillermo"
> wrote:

>I use a KLN 94, but when I input coordinates and waypoints, I always
>crosscheck the distances and bearing with a chart to see if everything makes
>sense.

I had been using the waypoint in question for nearly a year, and had
used it most recently a week earlier.. It wasn't "input" incorrectly.
It actually changed from 42N to 42S in a 7-day period.

I didn't want to complicate the post, but another user-defined
waypoint also moved. In this case, it appears to have adopted the
coordinates of my home. This was Mountain View airport in Wolfeboro,
which I punched in a month ago in preparation for going to an open
house there. (In that case I didn't enter the coordinates, but put the
cursor on the map where I knew the airport to be, and punched it in.)
I did notice, when I was flying north to Lake Winnipesaukee on
Saturday, that the MtnView locator seemed to be in the middle of Great
Bay. But since I wasn't heading there, I ignored it.

For years I used a Garmin III+ (not aviation) and all my waypoints
were user-defined. I never had a problem with it.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Bob Moore]

Jose wrote
> There's a difference between the use of technology and the =reliance= on
> it. I agree that we should all be able to =use= the available
> technology. However, I see too many pilots, especially new ones, that
> =rely= on it to such an extent that they could not navigage without it.

Yep! I caught the same flack way back during the switch from
Radio Range to VOR/DME.

I've been through Radio Range, Manual DF, Celestial, DR Plotting Board,
CONSOLAN, Pressure Pattern, LORAN A, LORAN C, OMEGA, Inertial NAV, ADF,
TACAN, and VOR/DME. I'll take GPS anytime!




Bob Moore

[Jose]

> Yep! I caught the same flack way back during the switch from
> Radio Range to VOR/DME.

.... and actually there are too many pilots who can't navigate VFR
without VORs.

Jose
--
My other car is up my nose.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> > If I were a CFI, I would NEVER discourage the use of technology in the
> > cockpit.
>
> There's a difference between the use of technology and the =reliance= on
> it. I agree that we should all be able to =use= the available
> technology. However, I see too many pilots, especially new ones, that
> =rely= on it to such an extent that they could not navigage without it.


Reliance on ANY one technology is generally not good. However, pretty
soon reliance on GPS for navigation will be essentially mandated by the
market. When you're IFR in the clouds or above a layer, you have to
rely on technology for navigation, whether that's old technology or new
technology.

I use GPS as the primary means of navigation on long flights. I have
weather uplink and TFR updates every 12 minutes. No chart or other
legacy technology can come close to that capability. However, if I'm
making the breakfast or dinner run, I never rely on my GPS--it's all
pilotage, even if it's out of the local area. For long flights, I
always have charts on board (both IFR and sectionals) and VORs tuned for
backup. I am always on a flight plan when making long flights.

I think students should be encouraged to use "all available
information." That means GPS (handheld or otherwise), VOR, ADF, etc.
Use flight plans, and get flight following when on VFR cross countries.
My handheld GPS units have been more reliable and more precise than any
other radio in any of the airplanes I've flown since I started flying 10
years ago. There is nothing inherently bad about GPS, and teaching
students to shy away from it is doing them a disservice, given the fact
that GPS and other modern technologies are the future.



JKG

[Tina Marie]

In article >, Jose wrote:
> I use 'em when I hafta, and they're cool when they work, but I've never
> seen the blue screen of death on a sectional!

No blue screen of death, but I have had several total sectional failures
in flight.

See, I used to own an open-cockpit biplane, and if you weren't very
careful about folding/unfolding them, the wind could catch them and
they were gone. I once lost 3 copies of the same sectional on the
same flight.

Tina Marie
--
http://www.tripacerdriver.com "...One of the main causes
of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way
to indicate successful termination of their C programs." (Robert Firth)

[Jose]

> ...but I have had several total sectional failures
> in flight.
>
> See, I used to own an open-cockpit biplane...

Touche :)

Jose
--
You may not get what you pay for, but you sure as hell pay for what you get.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:09:05 -0500, Tina Marie
> wrote:

>No blue screen of death, but I have had several total sectional failures
>in flight.
>
>See, I used to own an open-cockpit biplane, and if you weren't very
>careful about folding/unfolding them, the wind could catch them and
>they were gone. I once lost 3 copies of the same sectional on the
>same flight.

Yes, one time I thought it would be handy to put the airport
information on a Post-it note stuck to the sectional (which resides on
a kneeboard). I happened to be flying that day with the Cub's window
and door open. Fshooh! Gone in an eyeblink.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Eduardo K.]

In article >,
Cub Driver > wrote:
>
>
>When I got home, I scanned out and out on the map, to find that my
>waypoint was now located in the Andes on the Argentinian side of the
>Chile-Argentina border. Still, the coordinates looked very familar. On
>a hunch, I changed the S to an N, and behold! The waypoint moved back
>to the seacoast of New Hampshire.
>
>What happened?

Next time land and come visit :) (I live in chile, 100 miles frm the
Argentina border)


--
Eduardo K. | To put a pipe in byte mode,
http://www.carfun.cl | type PIPE_TYPE_BYTE.
http://e.nn.cl | (from the Visual C++ help file.)

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:49:39 +0000 (UTC), Eduardo K.
> wrote:

>Next time land and come visit :) (I live in chile, 100 miles frm the
>Argentina border)

Gracias, Eduardo. But I wouldn't be a very good guest after 84 hours
of conning a J-3!


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Eduardo K.]

In article >,
Cub Driver > wrote:
>On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:49:39 +0000 (UTC), Eduardo K.
> wrote:
>
>>Next time land and come visit :) (I live in chile, 100 miles frm the
>>Argentina border)
>
>Gracias, Eduardo. But I wouldn't be a very good guest after 84 hours
>of conning a J-3!

:)



--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://e.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank