Does it have to WHITE!!!

[firstflight]

I have a composite kit aircraft, and it is time to paint! But I just hate
the idea of painting it WHITE (like most all the others). I understand that
HEAT is a big factor in this decision, and that white attracts the least
amount of heat which could disrupt the Epoxy over time. Since my plane is
held together with Epoxy, this seems like a valid concern.

What do you think people? Does it have to be white?? Could one choose a
light yellow, light gray, silver,etc....... and not be pushing the envelop
too much?

I happen to live in a very cool part of North America, so I am not too
worried about regular heat (like someone in Arizona might be).

Thoughts?

[Kyle Boatright]

"firstflight" > wrote in message
...
>I have a composite kit aircraft, and it is time to paint! But I just hate
>the idea of painting it WHITE (like most all the others). I understand
>that HEAT is a big factor in this decision, and that white attracts the
>least amount of heat which could disrupt the Epoxy over time. Since my
>plane is held together with Epoxy, this seems like a valid concern.
>
> What do you think people? Does it have to be white?? Could one choose a
> light yellow, light gray, silver,etc....... and not be pushing the
> envelop too much?
>
> I happen to live in a very cool part of North America, so I am not too
> worried about regular heat (like someone in Arizona might be).
>
> Thoughts?


If your kit manufacturer recommends white, I suggest you follow that
recommendation. At some time, you'll probably want to fly it to Texas,
California, or Florida, and wouldn't it be a shame if you either chose not
to because of the color you used, or (even worse) the aircraft was damaged
due to heat build up.

Don't let vanity or the desire to be different get in the way of common
sense and/or good engineering.

KB

[UltraJohn]

firstflight wrote:

> I have a composite kit aircraft, and it is time to paint! But I just hate
> the idea of painting it WHITE (like most all the others). I understand
> that HEAT is a big factor in this decision, and that white attracts the
> least
> amount of heat which could disrupt the Epoxy over time. Since my plane is
> held together with Epoxy, this seems like a valid concern.
>
> What do you think people? Does it have to be white?? Could one choose a
> light yellow, light gray, silver,etc....... and not be pushing the
> envelop too much?
>
> I happen to live in a very cool part of North America, so I am not too
> worried about regular heat (like someone in Arizona might be).
>
> Thoughts?
There are charts out there that give the relative effect of different colors
on heat build up. Check them out I think you'll find at least a few choices
that have minimal heat build up compared to white. Usually the light pastel
colors will not be a problem. The other possibility is to paint it white
and use color trim to liven it up! Also consider getting a reflective cover
for the plane so when you travel (or at home if you don't hanger it) you
can protect it better.
John

[COLIN LAMB]

It could be white, or aluminum or other light color. Try different color
paints on similar material of the same size. Lay them in the sun and take
their temperature. Lowest temperature wins. Usually you can feel the
difference.

You can dress up a white airplane with stripes, circles, squares or
diagonals.

If it is going to be in a hangar or under cover, the paint is less a problem
than if it sits out all the time.

You can also give it a two-tone job. Light on the top and darker on the
bottom. People on the ground will see the darker colors.



Colin

[Stealth Pilot]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:34:32 -0400, "firstflight"
> wrote:

>I have a composite kit aircraft, and it is time to paint! But I just hate
>the idea of painting it WHITE (like most all the others). I understand that
>HEAT is a big factor in this decision, and that white attracts the least
>amount of heat which could disrupt the Epoxy over time. Since my plane is
>held together with Epoxy, this seems like a valid concern.
>
>What do you think people? Does it have to be white?? Could one choose a
>light yellow, light gray, silver,etc....... and not be pushing the envelop
>too much?
>
>I happen to live in a very cool part of North America, so I am not too
>worried about regular heat (like someone in Arizona might be).
>
>Thoughts?
>
>
there was an architectural book out of england in the early 80's which
gave a rundown on the infrared characteristics of various paint
colours. It turns out that colour does not directly equate to infrared
transmissability. additives to a paint may achieve what you seek.
I dont have access to the reference, I only remember that it was a red
book. I just point this out to give a pointer to where the answer may
lie. you want the infrared transmissability data not the colour data.

Stealth Pilot

[Dave S]

Stealth Pilot wrote:

.. you want the infrared transmissability data not the colour data.
>
> Stealth Pilot

Actually its not so much the IR.. as much as it is heat. Dark colors
cause higher heat absorption and can cause shrinkage of the underlying
foam core used in moldless construction on the fast glass birds. That is
why the light colors - heat reflection and rejection.

Dave

[......... :-\)\)]

The answer depends on the resin system and core materials that are used.

All polymer materials have a glass transition temperature (Tg). If the
temperature is raised above this temperature then the mechanical properties
reduce rapidly and irreversible changes occur in the material. See
MIL-HDBK-17 for much more detail info.

The FAA and MIL-HDBK-17 recommend a buffer of 50 deg F (27.7 deg C I think
from memory) between the maximum inservice temperature and the Tg of the
material (i.e. Max Service Temp (deg F) = Tg - 50). You need a bloody good
reason if you want to break this rule.

That said you need to find out what the Tg of the materials in your airplane
are. Get this from the material manufacturers - if they are materials meant
for an aircraft they will have the data. When you have this calculate the
maximum in service temperature. WARNING ... make sure you understand the
data. What humidity, test methods, cure cycles, post cure cycle etc ...
these can a BIG influence on the Tg. The data you have needs to correspond
to the manufacturing processes used in your aircraft. If you want to test
for Tg you can do that but you need a fairly expensive bit of test equipment
but there are labs that can do the testing for you.

If this were an FAA Certification program you would then be required to
demonstrate (probably by test with thermocouples that the specified
temperatures were not exceeded) however this is not practical for a
homebuilt. Fortunately you can get a rough idea by charts that are available
from a number of sources. JAR VLA has a chart in the ACJ's at the rear. This
was taken from a NASA report (NASA CP-2036 and CR-3290 ). One of these NASA
reports in available for download on the NASA Tech Report server. Not sure
which. If I recall correctly this data was from Lockheed and I have a vague
recollection that it may be for vertical surfaces (not sure). Horizontal
surfaces would probably get hotter and it would be advisable to allow a
little extra buffer for this. The temperatures are for 38 deg Ambient, sun
at Zenith, cooling after 3 minutes taxi, zero wind. The chart gives 54 deg C
for white surfaces. Light Green / Yellow is approx 68 deg C and dark colours
are approx 80 deg C. So if you have a typical wet layup epoxy resin system
with Tg = 85 deg C. Then 57.3 deg C would be the max surface temperature.
White is just OK and all other colours are out. Of course you can get room
temperature cure resins with higher Tg's (up to 300-400 deg F in specialised
cases). Prepreg materials generally have Tg's > 200 deg F depending on cure
temperature. Some go to the mid to high 300 F range.

A few cautions:

Tg is dependant on the moisture content of the resin. Tg decreases with
moisture content. Since composite aircraft are generally designed for an
ambient humidity of 85% RH (FAA and MIL-HDBK-17 requirements) then you
should use Tg's that correspond to this condition.

The other major concern is that the mechanical properties of the material
are a function of temperature. It is normal to design composite aircraft
with the allowable stresses and strains that correspond to various
environmental conditions including max operating temperature and humidity. I
doubt (know) that some homebuilts do not consider the effect of environment
on mechanical properties. They just design with the room temperature
allowables. If this were the case then I would want to keep the thing as
cool as possible ... even if the Tg was such that you could paint the plane
black I would paint it white to keep the temperatures low and hence
mechanical properties as high as possible.

This is a complex issue and to provide any more specific advice one needs a
lot more information such as info on the resin system and details of the
stress analysis and material allowables used.

Ask if you have more questions.



"firstflight" > wrote in message
...
> I have a composite kit aircraft, and it is time to paint! But I just hate
> the idea of painting it WHITE (like most all the others). I understand
that
> HEAT is a big factor in this decision, and that white attracts the least
> amount of heat which could disrupt the Epoxy over time. Since my plane is
> held together with Epoxy, this seems like a valid concern.
>
> What do you think people? Does it have to be white?? Could one choose a
> light yellow, light gray, silver,etc....... and not be pushing the
envelop
> too much?
>
> I happen to live in a very cool part of North America, so I am not too
> worried about regular heat (like someone in Arizona might be).
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

The rule of thumb for painting composite AC is that you can
paint them any color you like as long as its white.

--

FF

[[email protected]]

The heat is in the IR region that you do not see with your eye. In the
IR spectrum things look very different. If you've ever looked at
things using an IR sensitive camera you'll see what I mean. I think
bees see in IR, and I noticed that flowers reflect a lot of IR even
though they may seem like very dark rich colors to the human eye.
Typically darker colors do absorb more IR however, but its more of a
coincidence than a requirement. Those handheld non-contact temperature
sensors are really cheap these days. You could make a sample sheet
with swatches of color, put it in the sun for 30 minutes, then shade
and measure immediately. See what kind of differences you get.

If anyone is wondering why I was looking at flowers with IR sensitive
cameras, it was part of testing a series of IR cut filters for a camera
we were designing. A group of flowers is a stereo typical test subject
for a color camera.

You could make an IR pass filter (daylight filter) from a piece of
exposed film negative. Put it in front of a black and white TV camera.
Then point it at your test subjects. The ones that are the brightest
are relecting the most IR and should be the coolest.

BTW, the touch test may not be a very good test because your finger is
really measuring the amount of heat rather than the absolute
temperature. Put another way, touching a 150 degree F piece of
plywood, or a 150 degre F piece of aluminum, you'll think the Al is way
hotter because the Al will transfer more heat to your finger.

firstflight wrote:
> I have a composite kit aircraft, and it is time to paint! But I just hate
> the idea of painting it WHITE (like most all the others). I understand that
> HEAT is a big factor in this decision, and that white attracts the least
> amount of heat which could disrupt the Epoxy over time. Since my plane is
> held together with Epoxy, this seems like a valid concern.
>
> What do you think people? Does it have to be white?? Could one choose a
> light yellow, light gray, silver,etc....... and not be pushing the envelop
> too much?
>
> I happen to live in a very cool part of North America, so I am not too
> worried about regular heat (like someone in Arizona might be).
>
> Thoughts?

[Big John]

Fred

You forget about Henry Ford who said you can have a Model T in any
color as long as it's black.

Older than mud

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````

On 25 Jun 2005 09:33:00 -0700, wrote:

>
>The rule of thumb for painting composite AC is that you can
>paint them any color you like as long as its white.

[[email protected]]

Big John wrote:
> Fred
>
> You forget about Henry Ford who said you can have a Model T in any
> color as long as it's black.
>

I didn't forget. I'm not old enough to remember that in the first
place...


--

FF

[Ernest Christley]

wrote:
>
> You could make an IR pass filter (daylight filter) from a piece of
> exposed film negative. Put it in front of a black and white TV camera.
> Then point it at your test subjects. The ones that are the brightest
> are relecting the most IR and should be the coolest.
>

Or better yet. Get one of the 'security cameras' from Harbor Freight.
Most CCDs are really sensitive to IR, so much so that they have to
include a filter for it to get any sort of decent picture. The 'night
vision' security cameras are really cheap cameras without the IR filter.

So I've been told.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[[email protected]]

Sure glad I have a wooden airplane.

Dan

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 27 Jun 2005 07:14:26 -0700, wrote:

> Sure glad I have a wooden airplane.

....unless, of course, you're using epoxy to hold it together.....

Ron "Hot Sauce for Gander" Wanttaja

[CB]

I was thinking the same thing, Ron, but most of the structural epoxy in
a wooden bird is not in direct sun (unlike composite wing skins), and
wood is a lousy heat conductor. Of course, you never have to worry
about ANY part of your airplane getting exposed to the sun, living as
you do in the PacNW! :-^

[CB]

OT re honeybee vision: They can see UV, not IR.

"...their vision is not sensitive to the same range of colors as ours.
Theirs is insensitive to red but detects ultraviolet light which is
invisible to us."

http://koning.ecsu.ctstateu.edu/Plants_Human/bees/bees.html

[David Koehler]

Greetings All,
I'm building a composite fuselage in South Texas, with out the aid of air
conditioning. Does anyone have some suggestions on getting the resin setup
time a little longer. I promote it for 85 degrees, I've tried a hotter
temperature but it doesn't set well. The temp in the garage is 95+. I've put
the resin container in a bucket of water and it helps a little.
I need to do a large piece and the only option I can see is scheduling
myself at 3am in the morning. It would be nicer if I could do it during the
day. Thanks for any help you guys can give.
david

[Edgar]

"David Koehler" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings All,
> I'm building a composite fuselage in South Texas, with out the aid of air
> conditioning. Does anyone have some suggestions on getting the resin setup
> time a little longer. I promote it for 85 degrees, I've tried a hotter
> temperature but it doesn't set well. The temp in the garage is 95+. I've
put
> the resin container in a bucket of water and it helps a little.
> I need to do a large piece and the only option I can see is scheduling
> myself at 3am in the morning. It would be nicer if I could do it during
the
> day. Thanks for any help you guys can give.

I'd do the layups first thing in the morning, when it's the coolest part of
the day.

[......... :-\)\)]

Would help if you told us what sort of resin ... sounds like a Vinyl Ester
if you are promoting it but which one and what are you promoting it with and
in what quantities ? Are you vacuum bagging or is it just a conventional
wet layup ?


"David Koehler" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings All,
> I'm building a composite fuselage in South Texas, with out the aid of air
> conditioning. Does anyone have some suggestions on getting the resin setup
> time a little longer. I promote it for 85 degrees, I've tried a hotter
> temperature but it doesn't set well. The temp in the garage is 95+. I've
put
> the resin container in a bucket of water and it helps a little.
> I need to do a large piece and the only option I can see is scheduling
> myself at 3am in the morning. It would be nicer if I could do it during
the
> day. Thanks for any help you guys can give.
> david
>
>

[MJC]

Any really light, bright color should be fine, but white is definitely the
best for UV protection. Another question to ask yourself is if you'll be
keeping it in an enclosed hangar most of the time. If so, then it's almost a
non-issue.

MJC

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:34:32 -0400, "firstflight"
> > wrote:
>
> :I have a composite kit aircraft, and it is time to paint! But I just
hate
> :the idea of painting it WHITE (like most all the others). I understand
that
> :HEAT is a big factor in this decision, and that white attracts the least
> :amount of heat which could disrupt the Epoxy over time. Since my plane
is
> :held together with Epoxy, this seems like a valid concern.
> :
> :What do you think people? Does it have to be white?? Could one choose a
> :light yellow, light gray, silver,etc....... and not be pushing the
envelop
> :too much?
> :
> :I happen to live in a very cool part of North America, so I am not too
> :worried about regular heat (like someone in Arizona might be).
>
> In Southern California I know of EZ's that are yellow, and Dick
> Rutan's in Mojave is light blue. There's a beautiful Berkut in
> England that's silver.
>
> So, yes, it can be done if you are very, very careful. But do be VERY
> VERY careful. Paint a sample panel, put it out at noon on one of the
> hottest days of the year. Find out how hot it gets, check that
> against the epoxy you're using AND the foam core - blue styrofoam
> swells up when it gets too hot. It's not a cumulative problem - 4
> years at 140 degrees won't do anything bad. 30 minutes at 200 degrees
> and your airplane will be scrap.

[Jim Carriere]

David Koehler wrote:
> Greetings All,
> I'm building a composite fuselage in South Texas, with out the aid of air
> conditioning. Does anyone have some suggestions on getting the resin setup
> time a little longer. I promote it for 85 degrees, I've tried a hotter
> temperature but it doesn't set well. The temp in the garage is 95+. I've put
> the resin container in a bucket of water and it helps a little.
> I need to do a large piece and the only option I can see is scheduling
> myself at 3am in the morning. It would be nicer if I could do it during the
> day. Thanks for any help you guys can give.
> david

How well is your garage insulated? I put some of the silver bubble
paper kind of insulation on the back of my garage door, that made a
big difference. Since I don't have an a/c vent in my garage, I put a
large fan in the doorway to the house to blow house air in there,
that also makes a big difference. I've thought of adding ceiling
insulation (in the garage attic) and blinds on the windows to help
some more.

[Joe Camp]

Yellow is okay. I've felt the skin on yellow composites parked next to
white ones at airshows, and they feel about the same. On that same
day, a dark navy blue or black painted plane would burn your hand if
you touched it.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:25:00 -0500, "MJC" > wrote:

>Any really light, bright color should be fine, but white is definitely the
>best for UV protection. Another question to ask yourself is if you'll be
>keeping it in an enclosed hangar most of the time. If so, then it's almost a
>non-issue.
>

From what I've gathered, it's not the UV protection, it is heat
absorption. Fiberglass composite gets "soft" when overheated, and
white and several other colours do not heat up as much as black, red,
and several other colours.

>MJC
>
>"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:34:32 -0400, "firstflight"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> :I have a composite kit aircraft, and it is time to paint! But I just
>hate
>> :the idea of painting it WHITE (like most all the others). I understand
>that
>> :HEAT is a big factor in this decision, and that white attracts the least
>> :amount of heat which could disrupt the Epoxy over time. Since my plane
>is
>> :held together with Epoxy, this seems like a valid concern.
>> :
>> :What do you think people? Does it have to be white?? Could one choose a
>> :light yellow, light gray, silver,etc....... and not be pushing the
>envelop
>> :too much?
>> :
>> :I happen to live in a very cool part of North America, so I am not too
>> :worried about regular heat (like someone in Arizona might be).
>>
>> In Southern California I know of EZ's that are yellow, and Dick
>> Rutan's in Mojave is light blue. There's a beautiful Berkut in
>> England that's silver.
>>
>> So, yes, it can be done if you are very, very careful. But do be VERY
>> VERY careful. Paint a sample panel, put it out at noon on one of the
>> hottest days of the year. Find out how hot it gets, check that
>> against the epoxy you're using AND the foam core - blue styrofoam
>> swells up when it gets too hot. It's not a cumulative problem - 4
>> years at 140 degrees won't do anything bad. 30 minutes at 200 degrees
>> and your airplane will be scrap.
>

[MJC]

Both are important, and both are long term, not short term problems.
What's significant is that the same thing you do to achieve protection of
one element (heat or UV) also, by happenstance, helps to protect from the
other element.
I have to say; if any composite resin gets "soft" when heated in direct
sun (no matter what color it's painted), I'd say that's a good reason to
never fly that aircraft again. A resin that gets soft in daytime sun is a
resin that was not properly cured (mixed wrong?) and is not airworthy in any
way and never will be. Makes me glad I'm building an RV :-)

MJC

> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:25:00 -0500, "MJC" > wrote:
>
> >Any really light, bright color should be fine, but white is definitely
the
> >best for UV protection. Another question to ask yourself is if you'll be
> >keeping it in an enclosed hangar most of the time. If so, then it's
almost a
> >non-issue.
> >
>
> From what I've gathered, it's not the UV protection, it is heat
> absorption. Fiberglass composite gets "soft" when overheated, and
> white and several other colours do not heat up as much as black, red,
> and several other colours.
>
> >MJC

[Cy Galley]

I feel your comments are rather alarmist! Epoxies do soften if exposed the
heat higher than the cure temperature. How ever then this higher temperature
becomes the new softening temperature as the epoxy is now post cured.
There is a limit to this post curing but it is much higher than the sun can
generate.
--
Cy Galley
EAA Safety Programs Editor
Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
"MJC" > wrote in message
...
> Both are important, and both are long term, not short term problems.
> What's significant is that the same thing you do to achieve protection of
> one element (heat or UV) also, by happenstance, helps to protect from the
> other element.
> I have to say; if any composite resin gets "soft" when heated in direct
> sun (no matter what color it's painted), I'd say that's a good reason to
> never fly that aircraft again. A resin that gets soft in daytime sun is a
> resin that was not properly cured (mixed wrong?) and is not airworthy in
> any
> way and never will be. Makes me glad I'm building an RV :-)
>
> MJC
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:25:00 -0500, "MJC" > wrote:
>>
>> >Any really light, bright color should be fine, but white is definitely
> the
>> >best for UV protection. Another question to ask yourself is if you'll be
>> >keeping it in an enclosed hangar most of the time. If so, then it's
> almost a
>> >non-issue.
>> >
>>
>> From what I've gathered, it's not the UV protection, it is heat
>> absorption. Fiberglass composite gets "soft" when overheated, and
>> white and several other colours do not heat up as much as black, red,
>> and several other colours.
>>
>> >MJC
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:53:36 -0500, "MJC" > wrote:

> Both are important, and both are long term, not short term problems.
>What's significant is that the same thing you do to achieve protection of
>one element (heat or UV) also, by happenstance, helps to protect from the
>other element.
> I have to say; if any composite resin gets "soft" when heated in direct
>sun (no matter what color it's painted), I'd say that's a good reason to
>never fly that aircraft again. A resin that gets soft in daytime sun is a
>resin that was not properly cured (mixed wrong?) and is not airworthy in any
>way and never will be. Makes me glad I'm building an RV :-)
>
>MJC

"post curing" raises the softening temperature, but virtually all
common modern composites suffer some degree of softening at elevated
temps.
>
> wrote in message
...
>> On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:25:00 -0500, "MJC" > wrote:
>>
>> >Any really light, bright color should be fine, but white is definitely
>the
>> >best for UV protection. Another question to ask yourself is if you'll be
>> >keeping it in an enclosed hangar most of the time. If so, then it's
>almost a
>> >non-issue.
>> >
>>
>> From what I've gathered, it's not the UV protection, it is heat
>> absorption. Fiberglass composite gets "soft" when overheated, and
>> white and several other colours do not heat up as much as black, red,
>> and several other colours.
>>
>> >MJC
>

[David Koehler]

Yes it's vinyl ester resin, and regular glass lay-up. The first try was a
mixture for 90 degrees and it didn't harden. I mixed another batch for 85
degrees and it hardened like the big boys do. I only promote 600 cc's at a
time. We've had rather hot weather the past month, after 4 to 5 minutes I'm
jellin, and I'm not talking about shoe soles. I did put the resin in the
frig. and mix it cold, then do the glass, I had plenty of time and it looks
like it harden.
On the plus side, I read where it's advisable to have a heated room to cure
the glass lays.... Would you believe I have a heated garage, right now
anyway. Thank you for your time and consideration,
david

"......... :-))" > wrote in message
u...
> Would help if you told us what sort of resin ... sounds like a Vinyl Ester
> if you are promoting it but which one and what are you promoting it with
and
> in what quantities ? Are you vacuum bagging or is it just a conventional
> wet layup ?
>
>
> "David Koehler" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Greetings All,
> > I'm building a composite fuselage in South Texas, with out the aid of
air
> > conditioning. Does anyone have some suggestions on getting the resin
setup
> > time a little longer. I promote it for 85 degrees, I've tried a hotter
> > temperature but it doesn't set well. The temp in the garage is 95+. I've
> put
> > the resin container in a bucket of water and it helps a little.
> > I need to do a large piece and the only option I can see is scheduling
> > myself at 3am in the morning. It would be nicer if I could do it during
> the
> > day. Thanks for any help you guys can give.
> > david
> >
> >
>
>

[David Koehler]

My garage is detached, and just a shell, no insulation. I've solved my
problem by doing what my eaa consular suggested, butting the resin in the
frig. and cooling it off. I got the large piece of glass on with time to
spare. He was concerned about groceries in the box, but the only thing I
have in the one in the garage is beer.... It doesn't look like it affected
the resin at all. Thanks to all for the help,
David

"Jim Carriere" > wrote in message
...
> David Koehler wrote:
> > Greetings All,
> > I'm building a composite fuselage in South Texas, with out the aid of
air
> > conditioning. Does anyone have some suggestions on getting the resin
setup
> > time a little longer. I promote it for 85 degrees, I've tried a hotter
> > temperature but it doesn't set well. The temp in the garage is 95+. I've
put
> > the resin container in a bucket of water and it helps a little.
> > I need to do a large piece and the only option I can see is scheduling
> > myself at 3am in the morning. It would be nicer if I could do it during
the
> > day. Thanks for any help you guys can give.
> > david
>
> How well is your garage insulated? I put some of the silver bubble
> paper kind of insulation on the back of my garage door, that made a
> big difference. Since I don't have an a/c vent in my garage, I put a
> large fan in the doorway to the house to blow house air in there,
> that also makes a big difference. I've thought of adding ceiling
> insulation (in the garage attic) and blinds on the windows to help
> some more.

[BarrenSands]

"David Koehler" > wrote in message
...



< snipped >


>He was concerned about groceries in the box, but the only thing I
>have in the one in the garage is beer.... It doesn't look like it affected
>the resin at all.

Have a couple beers and I bet it will affect the resin (and the rest of the
job) :-)

[Ernest Christley]

BarrenSands wrote:
> "David Koehler" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>
> < snipped >
>
>
>>He was concerned about groceries in the box, but the only thing I
>>have in the one in the garage is beer.... It doesn't look like it affected
>>the resin at all.
>
>
> Have a couple beers and I bet it will affect the resin (and the rest of the
> job) :-)
>
>

Temps are also a little high here in North Carolina lately. I'm about
done welding. Just gotta be sure to clean the sweat off the steel, then
add a little oil. But what will sweat do to a layup?

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[Roger]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:05:01 GMT, Ernest Christley
> wrote:

>BarrenSands wrote:
>> "David Koehler" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> < snipped >
>>
>>
>>>He was concerned about groceries in the box, but the only thing I
>>>have in the one in the garage is beer.... It doesn't look like it affected
>>>the resin at all.
>>
>>
>> Have a couple beers and I bet it will affect the resin (and the rest of the
>> job) :-)
>>
>>
>
>Temps are also a little high here in North Carolina lately. I'm about
>done welding. Just gotta be sure to clean the sweat off the steel, then
>add a little oil. But what will sweat do to a layup?

Moisture is bad and sweat far worse as far as lay-ups. The glass
fibers are very sensitive to moisture. Sweat not only has salt, but
oil in it as well. That can affect the layer to layer as well as the
internal lay-up strength.

I clean the surfaces with Acetone and do the lay-ups while wearing
surgical gloves. I was cautioned not to even touch the surface with
my hands prior to lay-up and after cleaning. If it will be multiple
lay-ups I use nylon or Dacron cloth as a peel ply to prep the surface
for the next lay-up.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:32:38 -0500, "David Koehler" >
wrote:

>Greetings All,
>I'm building a composite fuselage in South Texas, with out the aid of air
>conditioning. Does anyone have some suggestions on getting the resin setup
>time a little longer. I promote it for 85 degrees, I've tried a hotter
>temperature but it doesn't set well. The temp in the garage is 95+. I've put
>the resin container in a bucket of water and it helps a little.
>I need to do a large piece and the only option I can see is scheduling
>myself at 3am in the morning. It would be nicer if I could do it during the
>day. Thanks for any help you guys can give.
>david
>
Sounds like Vinyl Ester Resin. The only plane I know of that uses
this is the Glasair series. They use Dow Derakane.
I promote it a full gallon at a time but use no accelerator. I don't
even use accelerator in the winter. I use one percent catalyst (MEKP)
Never mix a working batch (catalyzed) of more than 100 grams/CCs at a
time. The bigger the batch the shorter the pot life and jell time.

Typically I work with 20 to 50 gram batches except when it's time to
close something big. Then I get two or three helpers

If you are working on one of the Glasair series the users group would
be well worth your effort. http://www.glasair.org/ It does require a
subscription. I think it runs $20 or $25 a year.

My builder's diary:
http://www.rogerhalstead.com/G3_files/GIII_Diary.htm
There is a non frames version if you start from my home page.

Good Luck,

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[BarrenSands]

"Ernest Christley" > wrote in message
. com...
> BarrenSands wrote:
> > "David Koehler" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >
> >
> > < snipped >
> >
> >
> >>He was concerned about groceries in the box, but the only thing I
> >>have in the one in the garage is beer.... It doesn't look like it
affected
> >>the resin at all.
> >
> >
> > Have a couple beers and I bet it will affect the resin (and the rest of
the
> > job) :-)
> >
> >
>
> Temps are also a little high here in North Carolina lately. I'm about
> done welding. Just gotta be sure to clean the sweat off the steel, then
> add a little oil. But what will sweat do to a layup?

It does not hurt a thing. The worst it can do is leave a little bubble of
liquid. It usually just lays on top.
If it concerns you, take some low pressure air and *carefully* blow it off.

Barren

[David Koehler]

"Ernest Christley" > wrote in message
. com...
> BarrenSands wrote:
> > "David Koehler" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >
> >
> > < snipped >
> >
> >
> >>He was concerned about groceries in the box, but the only thing I
> >>have in the one in the garage is beer.... It doesn't look like it
affected
> >>the resin at all.
> >
> >
> > Have a couple beers and I bet it will affect the resin (and the rest of
the
> > job) :-)
> >
> >
>
> Temps are also a little high here in North Carolina lately. I'm about
> done welding. Just gotta be sure to clean the sweat off the steel, then
> add a little oil. But what will sweat do to a layup?
>
> --
> This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
> instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
> mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
> decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

What my book says is to keep the glass cloth covered, and clean as possible.
The site needs to be preped, by ruff sanding 80 grit, and cleaned with
acetone before the cloth and resin goes on. You don't want oil where you put
glass, on metal you have welded you may want to put zinc primer. Mine has
blood sweat and tears all over. OH, which reminds me sand the joint after it
has cured to keep the blood at a minimum, the soft white cloth glass ain't
soft anymore. The gloves are a good idea to keep the resin off your hands,
baby powder helps get them on.