Another plane down

[Arnold Sten]

A Cherokee with four persons on board when down just after take off from
Harrisburg Capital City Airport (my home base) Runway 26 earlier this
afternoon. Details are sketchy, at best. I just returned from the FBO at
that airport and folks there can say very little about this incident.
Here is a preliminary news report:
http://www.thewgalchannel.com/news/4651740/detail.html

I'll post further details as they become available.
Arnold Sten

[Jay Honeck]

> A Cherokee with four persons on board when down just after take off from
> Harrisburg Capital City Airport (my home base) Runway 26 earlier this
> afternoon. Details are sketchy, at best. I just returned from the FBO at
> that airport and folks there can say very little about this incident.
> Here is a preliminary news report:
> http://www.thewgalchannel.com/news/4651740/detail.html
>
> I'll post further details as they become available.

Awful. Looks like three of the four aboard are dead, with only the
pilot surviving.

I thought I was witnessing a similar crash today, here in Iowa City.
My son and I were at a local store, around the corner from the inn,
just east of the departure end of Rwy 36.

Inexplicably, I looked up to hear/see a 182RG departing over my head.
With the 90-degree winds firmly out of the SOUTH, this guy was clearly
taking off with a fairly brisk tailwind.

Worse, Rwy 36 is only 2500 feet long now (with our newly displaced
threshhold) and departs into steeply rising terrain and downtown. As
he staggered over us, his wings were rocking and it looked to me like
he was steering to the west to avoid hitting the University of Iowa
Hospital -- but then I lost sight of him.

We both waited for the (seemingly inevitable) crash, but none came. He
apparently wobbled his way into the sky, probably scaring the bejeezus
out of himself, his passengers, and a few folks downtown.

Scary.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Arnold Sten]

Arnold Sten wrote:
> A Cherokee with four persons on board when down just after take off from
> Harrisburg Capital City Airport (my home base) Runway 26 earlier this
> afternoon. Details are sketchy, at best. I just returned from the FBO at
> that airport and folks there can say very little about this incident.
> Here is a preliminary news report:
> http://www.thewgalchannel.com/news/4651740/detail.html
>
> I'll post further details as they become available.
> Arnold Sten
Here is the latest updated information that I have been able to find
out. The plane was NOT a Cherokee but a Cessna (no announcement about
size or type). At 2200Z an official announcement was made on the media
that the only survivor, the pilot, subsequently died. On board that
plane were the pilot's wife and their two young daughters (ages not
given). Eyewitnesses on the ground reported hearing a rough-sounding engine.
At the time of this crash, the air temperature was 96 degrees. The
altitude of this airport is 347 ft., but at the time of this crash the
density altitude was 2291 ft.
I'll keep you all informed as more information becomes available.
Arnold Sten

[NVArt]

Hopefully, he learned from this experience. I love cheap lessons!

[Arnold Sten]

NVArt wrote:
> Hopefully, he learned from this experience. I love cheap lessons!
>
Sadly, the pilot, his wife, and two young daughters all perished in this
tragedy. Hopefully, all of us can all learn from his misfortune, once
the full NTSB report comes out.

[Gary Drescher]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Inexplicably, I looked up to hear/see a 182RG departing over my head.
> With the 90-degree winds firmly out of the SOUTH, this guy was clearly
> taking off with a fairly brisk tailwind.
>
> Worse, Rwy 36 is only 2500 feet long now (with our newly displaced
> threshhold) and departs into steeply rising terrain and downtown.

Glad they made it ok! But a displaced threshold shouldn't have
mattered--that doesn't reduce the distance available for takeoff (or for
landing in the opposite direction).

--Gary

[W P Dixon]

WOW,
Didn't sound cheap to me! My thoughts and prayers go out to him, I know
he must need them about now.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Arnold Sten" > wrote in message
...
> NVArt wrote:
>> Hopefully, he learned from this experience. I love cheap lessons!
>>
> Sadly, the pilot, his wife, and two young daughters all perished in this
> tragedy. Hopefully, all of us can all learn from his misfortune, once the
> full NTSB report comes out.

[Peter Duniho]

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> "Arnold Sten" > wrote in message
> ...
>> NVArt wrote:
>>> Hopefully, he learned from this experience. I love cheap lessons!
>>
>> Sadly, the pilot, his wife, and two young daughters all perished in this
>> tragedy.
>
> Didn't sound cheap to me! My thoughts and prayers go out to him, I know
> he must need them about now.

I assume that the comment about "cheap lessons" was directed at the takeoff
at Iowa City airport Jay described, not the accident that motivated this
thread.

Pete

[tony roberts]

Were you responding to Arnolds post, or Jays post?
If you don't include at least a portion of the post that you are
addressing, then your post is meaningless as we don't know what you are
responding to!

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

In article . com>,
"NVArt" > wrote:

> Hopefully, he learned from this experience. I love cheap lessons!

[Jay Honeck]

>> Worse, Rwy 36 is only 2500 feet long now (with our newly displaced
>> threshold) and departs into steeply rising terrain and downtown.
>
> Glad they made it ok! But a displaced threshold shouldn't have
> mattered--that doesn't reduce the distance available for takeoff (or for
> landing in the opposite direction).

Yeah, that didn't come out quite right.

I should have said "with our newly displaced threshold and the hundreds of
feet they've cut off the northern end of the runway."

Or something like that.

And soon (like, within a year) we'll lose that runway altogether.

:-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gary Drescher]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:tQwve.106673$nG6.47123@attbi_s22...
>>> Worse, Rwy 36 is only 2500 feet long now (with our newly
>>> displaced threshold) and departs into steeply rising terrain and
>>> downtown. As he staggered over us, his wings were rocking
>>> and it looked to me like he was steering to the west to avoid
>>> hitting the University of Iowa Hospital
>>
>> Glad they made it ok! But a displaced threshold shouldn't have
>> mattered--that doesn't reduce the distance available for takeoff (or for
>> landing in the opposite direction).
>
> Yeah, that didn't come out quite right.
>
> I should have said "with our newly displaced threshold and the hundreds of
> feet they've cut off the northern end of the runway."

Actually, neither factor should have reduced their altitude at any given
distance to the north of the airport.

> And soon (like, within a year) we'll lose that runway altogether.

Nearby construction?

--Gary

[Jeff]

Arnold Sten wrote:

> NVArt wrote:
> > Hopefully, he learned from this experience. I love cheap lessons!
> >
> Sadly, the pilot, his wife, and two young daughters all perished in this
> tragedy. Hopefully, all of us can all learn from his misfortune, once
> the full NTSB report comes out.

Nobody perished in the event that was referred to with the "cheap lessons"
comment. It referred to an account that Jay Honeck gave of a plane
departing on a short runway toward rising terrain and obstacles with a
tailwind.

[Jeff]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Worse, Rwy 36 is only 2500 feet long now (with our newly displaced
> threshhold) and departs into steeply rising terrain and downtown.

Does the displaced threshold affect the runway available for take off?
Usually they only reduce the amount of runway available for landing (and exist
due to reasons like obstacles in the way of a descent to the very end of the
runway etc.)

[Jeff]

Jeff wrote:

> Does the displaced threshold affect the runway available for take off?
> Usually they only reduce the amount of runway available for landing (and exist
> due to reasons like obstacles in the way of a descent to the very end of the
> runway etc.)

I just saw this addressed in another post.

[Jeff]

tony roberts wrote:

> If you don't include at least a portion of the post that you are
> addressing, then your post is meaningless as we don't know what you are
> responding to!

Quoting a small amount of relevant material is always a good idea, but
viewing the messages as a thread in a threaded newsreader makes it clear
what post was being referred to.

[Jose]

> Quoting a small amount of relevant material is always a good idea, but
> viewing the messages as a thread in a threaded newsreader makes it clear
> what post was being referred to.

Only if the preceding message has actually =arrived= at that particular
server (they often arrive out of sequence for technical reasons). Also,
not all newsreaders thread properly (this includes the newsreader used
by the responder, whose response may not be attached to the same post he
thinks he's responding to)

And while I'm on the subject, if you separate your post from the sig
line (if any) by two dashes and a space followed by a carriage return,
many (most?) newsreaders will recognize what follows as a sig line and
treat it appropriately (different typeface, indentation, or whatever)
which lets the actual message stand out.

Jose
--
You may not get what you pay for, but you sure as hell pay for what you get.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Montblack]

(Jeff wrote)
"> Quoting a small amount of relevant material is always a good idea, but
> viewing the messages as a thread in a threaded newsreader makes it clear
> what post was being referred to.


I (occasionally) run into problems figuring a post out because I often
delete the latest chunk of new messages after I've read through them. I
don't like all of those old messages hanging around - that's what
Google/Groups is for.

After I've cleared out the old messages, I'll generally read what arrives
new.

Oddly, I catch myself only skimming the fresh downloads when they are
dropped into an existing thread tree - an existing thread tree with hundreds
of old posts in it. Quirky me?

M$ OE 6.0
'Mark Conversation as Read' is a wonderful button :-)


Montblack

[Milen Lazarov]

>Gary Drescher wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>>I should have said "with our newly displaced threshold and the hundreds of
>>feet they've cut off the northern end of the runway."
>
>
> Actually, neither factor should have reduced their altitude at any given
> distance to the north of the airport.


What if they had to climb slower than Vy because of the cut off part at
the northern end?

Displaced threshold should not have mattered, I agree on that.

[Milen Lazarov]

Milen Lazarov wrote:
> >Gary Drescher wrote:
>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>>
>>> I should have said "with our newly displaced threshold and the
>>> hundreds of feet they've cut off the northern end of the runway."
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually, neither factor should have reduced their altitude at any
>> given distance to the north of the airport.
>
>
>
> What if they had to climb slower than Vy because of the cut off part at
> the northern end?
>
> Displaced threshold should not have mattered, I agree on that.
>
Never mind, I'm not thinking, shorter rynway should not have mattered
for their altitude either.

[Gary Drescher]

"Milen Lazarov" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> >Gary Drescher wrote:
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>>>I should have said "with our newly displaced threshold and the hundreds
>>>of feet they've cut off the northern end of the runway."
>>
>> Actually, neither factor should have reduced their altitude at any given
>> distance to the north of the airport.
>
> What if they had to climb slower than Vy because of the cut off part at
> the northern end?

You mean Vx, right? We're talking about maximizing altitude as a function
of distance rather than time, so Vx would be the optimal velocity. For the
particular aircraft and airport elevation under discussion, a 2500' ground
roll is well more than what is needed to reach Vx, even at 90F and with a 10
knot tailwind.

--Gary

[George Patterson]

Jeff wrote:
>
> Does the displaced threshold affect the runway available for take off?

No. As you point out, the displaced threshhold is only unusable for landing.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Jeff > writes:

> tony roberts wrote:
>
>> If you don't include at least a portion of the post that you are
>> addressing, then your post is meaningless as we don't know what you are
>> responding to!
>
> Quoting a small amount of relevant material is always a good idea, but
> viewing the messages as a thread in a threaded newsreader makes it clear
> what post was being referred to.

If all the relevant posts have arrived at your server by then, and are
still visible, yes.

Quoting is much safer.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

[Arnold Sten]

Arnold Sten wrote:
> A Cherokee with four persons on board when down just after take off from
> Harrisburg Capital City Airport (my home base) Runway 26 earlier this
> afternoon. Details are sketchy, at best. I just returned from the FBO at
> that airport and folks there can say very little about this incident.
> Here is a preliminary news report:
> http://www.thewgalchannel.com/news/4651740/detail.html
>
> I'll post further details as they become available.
> Arnold Sten

As promised, more information:
The downed plane was indeed a Cherokee (contradictory news reports
indicated that the plane was some type of Cessna). The plane was piloted
by Andrew Lee, a CFI from Tennessee with over 1300 hours in his
logbook. Again, conflicting news reports had stated that he died in the
hospital; Not so. He is in critical condition at the Allentown (PA) Burn
Center. His 50-year old wife, and two young daughters did not survive.
We are being told that the NTSB might issue a preliminary report by this
Friday.
More information can be found at:
http://www.thewgalchannel.com/news/4657443/detail.html

[Peter R.]

Arnold wrote:

> He is in critical condition at the Allentown (PA) Burn
> Center. His 50-year old wife, and two young daughters did not survive.

This accident is an absolute tragedy and my greatest fear as a pilot.
I am deeply saddened for this man and fellow pilot.

--
Peter

[Mike Granby]

Amen. My greatest fear, too. If I was him, I don't think I'd want to
live. I notice a report said the airplane was a 235, but other reports
talk about the pilot getting out, but not his wife, and the pilot
trying to open the passenger door to get the family out. That would
make it most likely a PA-32 variant. The guys at the airport were
looking at the pics in the local paper (I'm based only 20 mins from
where the crash happened) and figured it was a Six of some kind. Hope
it's not a fuel selection problem, with those four tanks and it not
being his plane. My prayers are with all concerned...

[[email protected]]

Mike,

The pilot, Andy Lee, is an acquaintance of mine. The airplane was a
Cherokee 235 or Dakota (I saw it several months ago and just don't
remember). Andy, as a CFI, often flew from the right seat, so I
wouldn't be surprised if he was able to get out.

I'm horribly saddened by this crash and am wondering what happened. I
almost always discount witnesses who state the engine was sputtering as
I've had that occur in a glider accident; nevertheless, the media
reports are that the airplane was not climbing well and that Andy did
make a call to the tower indicating he had a problem.

It always hurts when someone who flies is hurt in an aircraft, when
it's someone you know the pain is geometrically increased.

All the best,
Rick

Mike Granby wrote:
> Amen. My greatest fear, too. If I was him, I don't think I'd want to
> live. I notice a report said the airplane was a 235, but other reports
> talk about the pilot getting out, but not his wife, and the pilot
> trying to open the passenger door to get the family out. That would
> make it most likely a PA-32 variant. The guys at the airport were
> looking at the pics in the local paper (I'm based only 20 mins from
> where the crash happened) and figured it was a Six of some kind. Hope
> it's not a fuel selection problem, with those four tanks and it not
> being his plane. My prayers are with all concerned...

[Mike Granby]

Rick,

Sorry to hear of the loss of your friend's family, and of the suffering
he's undergoing. The right seat thing would explain the reports, which,
as usual with the media, are mixed. I agree, too, about the
unreliability of eye witnesses.

Sincerely,

Mike.

[Arnold Sten]

Arnold Sten wrote:
> A Cherokee with four persons on board when down just after take off from
> Harrisburg Capital City Airport (my home base) Runway 26 earlier this
> afternoon. Details are sketchy, at best. I just returned from the FBO at
> that airport and folks there can say very little about this incident.
> Here is a preliminary news report:
> http://www.thewgalchannel.com/news/4651740/detail.html
>
> I'll post further details as they become available.
> Arnold Sten
Here's the text of a feature story about pilot Andrew Lee, taken from
Tuesday morning's Harrisburg Newspaper:

Andrew Lee, the pilot who lost his wife and daughters in Saturday's
plane crash in York County, has spent a lot of time teaching others to
fly, even donating his services to an organization called Angel Flight.

Angel Flight ferries seriously ill or injured passengers who could not
afford to fly to and from treatment centers. He also is a pilot for the
Civil Air Patrol, the all-volunteer civilian auxiliary of the United
States Air Force based in Nashville.

Lee, 48, remains on the critical list in the burn unit at the Lehigh
Valley Hospital in Allentown from injuries in the crash at the Bankridge
Mobile Home Park in Fairview Twp.
His wife, Diane, 50, and their daughters, Allison, 13, and Amy, 11
died from smoke inhalation and extensive burns, York County Coroner
Barry Bloss said yesterday.

Friends describe Lee as a good pilot and a devoted family man.

"I can't imagine losing your family like that," said Bonnie Bandy, 64,
who lives a few doors down from the Lees in Brentwood, a Nashville
suburb. "What does he have to come home to? I don't know what he'll do
when he does get well. We're all very concerned."

She said the family had lived in the neighborhood for about 12 years.

"He was totally a family man, he did a lot of things with them," Bonnie
Bandy said. "He loved his girls very much. They were very good
neighbors. The girls went out every Halloween selling things for
different school projects."

John Jacobus knows all about Andy Lee's flying. Both men are pilots with
the Civil Air Patrol, and Jacobus said his friend was a good pilot.

"He talked about family a lot, always mentioned them in one way, shape
or form when we flew together," he said. "This is just mind-boggling. I
am in shock even today. He's such a good guy, always volunteering to
help others."

The single-engine Piper Cherokee went down about 12:45 p.m. Saturday,
crashed into a mobile home and exploded, causing a fire that destroyed
two other mobile homes. No one on the ground was seriously injured by
the crash. The plane crashed moments after taking off from Capital City
Airport.

The Associated Press reported that the Lees had taken off from a
Nashville airport, and made an unscheduled stop in Charleston, W.Va. The
family continued to Pennsylvania, stayed overnight with friends in
Mechanicsburg, and had planned to travel Saturday to Connecticut.

An investigation into the cause of the crash could take months,
officials have said. Lee was a licensed commercial pilot and flight
instructor, according to Federal Aviation Administration records.

Roy Beardon lived close to the Lees but did not know the family well.

"He was in the printing business, that's the only thing I knew. I didn't
even know he flew until this happened. I was out to get the paper this
morning, and Jim Bandy pulled into my driveway to tell me. Neither of us
related to it being Andy until somebody told us it was Andy from up here
at the end of the street. We're all in shock," he said.

[Jay Honeck]

> Amen. My greatest fear, too. If I was him, I don't think I'd want to
> live.

You got that right.

I've strapped my kids in the back seat since they were in baby buckets. If
they go, I go.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"