Oshkosh gate admission on Sunday 24th?

[Montblack]

I've not been to Oshkosh on the first weekend, always later in the week.

Can you walk around looking at planes (for free) on Saturday 23rd and Sunday
24th? Show opens on Monday, July 25th. When do they start charging 'gate
admission' at Oshkosh?

What's open/available the first weekend vs. what's not up and running until
Monday? Food vendors comes to mind.

BTW, in your experience, what is the best place to watch the landings on the
first weekend?

http://www.airventure.org/2005/events/daily_schedule.html
(Day by Day Schedule at EAA AirVenture Oshkosh 2005)


Montblack

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've not been to Oshkosh on the first weekend, always later in the week.
>
> Can you walk around looking at planes (for free) on Saturday 23rd and
> Sunday 24th? Show opens on Monday, July 25th. When do they start charging
> 'gate admission' at Oshkosh?
>
> What's open/available the first weekend vs. what's not up and running
> until Monday? Food vendors comes to mind.
>
> BTW, in your experience, what is the best place to watch the landings on
> the first weekend?
>

In years past passes were required on the day prior to opening day but not
the day before that one. The passes were dated for both days, so while a
pass was required there was no additional cost if you were going to attend
opening day.

[john smith]

Montblack wrote:
> BTW, in your experience, what is the best place to watch the landings on
> the first weekend?

Jay's campsite.

[PPT33R]

Jay did have the choicest spot last year!

I'll be looking for him this year.

[Montblack]

("PPT33R" wrote)
> Jay did have the choicest spot last year!
>
> I'll be looking for him this year.


For departures yes - it was great!! But what about arrivals on Sunday late
morning, early afternoon?

Assuming somewhat calm conditions, 18/36 or 09/27 ....which would people
recommend?

If it's a coin toss, I'll hang in the N40.


Montblack

[David Odum]

"Montblack" > wrote:

>Can you walk around looking at planes (for free) on Saturday 23rd and Sunday
>24th? Show opens on Monday, July 25th. When do they start charging 'gate
>admission' at Oshkosh?

I was about to post a similar question. If I were flying to OSH as in
years past, I could arrive a few days early and have de facto access
to the grounds and flight line prior to the official opening on July
25. Unfortunately, circumstances this year force me to drive there
instead (I haven't driven to OSH in over 20 years), but I'd still like
to arrive a few days early to photograph the early arrivals such as
the en masse caravans and perhaps some big iron.

I don't mind if I have to pay for grounds access prior to July 25, I
just don't want to arrive a few days early and discover that only
those with "official" biz are permitted grounds and/or flight line
access. Anyone have the poop?

David Odum -- email: David at AirplaneZone dot com

[Dave Stadt]

"David Odum" <MyFirstName@AirplaneZone> wrote in message
...
> "Montblack" > wrote:
>
> >Can you walk around looking at planes (for free) on Saturday 23rd and
Sunday
> >24th? Show opens on Monday, July 25th. When do they start charging 'gate
> >admission' at Oshkosh?
>
> I was about to post a similar question. If I were flying to OSH as in
> years past, I could arrive a few days early and have de facto access
> to the grounds and flight line prior to the official opening on July
> 25. Unfortunately, circumstances this year force me to drive there
> instead (I haven't driven to OSH in over 20 years), but I'd still like
> to arrive a few days early to photograph the early arrivals such as
> the en masse caravans and perhaps some big iron.
>
> I don't mind if I have to pay for grounds access prior to July 25, I
> just don't want to arrive a few days early and discover that only
> those with "official" biz are permitted grounds and/or flight line
> access. Anyone have the poop?
>
> David Odum -- email: David at AirplaneZone dot com

You will have free access until Sunday. Parking is free until Monday. You
will need a wrist band starting Sunday. Bands go on sale Saturday or
Sunday. A Monday band will get you in on Sunday. Things are pretty much
wide open until the day before the start. The exhibit buildings will be off
limits until Monday morning.

[Montblack]

("Dave Stadt" wrote)
> You will have free access until Sunday. Parking is free until Monday.
> You
> will need a wrist band starting Sunday. Bands go on sale Saturday or
> Sunday. A Monday band will get you in on Sunday. Things are pretty much
> wide open until the day before the start. The exhibit buildings will be
> off
> limits until Monday morning.


N40 perimeter buses? Trams? Are food vendors open on Sunday?


Montblack

[Dave Stadt]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Dave Stadt" wrote)
> > You will have free access until Sunday. Parking is free until Monday.
> > You
> > will need a wrist band starting Sunday. Bands go on sale Saturday or
> > Sunday. A Monday band will get you in on Sunday. Things are pretty
much
> > wide open until the day before the start. The exhibit buildings will be
> > off
> > limits until Monday morning.
>
>
> N40 perimeter buses? Trams? Are food vendors open on Sunday?
>
>
> Montblack

Food services will start Sunday. Trams will start Saturday or Sunday.
Don't know about N40 bus but I would guess they will be running Sunday and
probably Saturday.

[David Odum]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote:

>You will have free access until Sunday. Parking is free until Monday. You
>will need a wrist band starting Sunday. Bands go on sale Saturday or
>Sunday. A Monday band will get you in on Sunday. Things are pretty much
>wide open until the day before the start. The exhibit buildings will be off
>limits until Monday morning.

Thanks. I'll pick up my wrist band on Saturday or Sunday, then, and
pay for the whole week at that time if permitted.

Thanks again,

David Odum -- email: David at AirplaneZone dot com

[John T]

I was on the grounds the weekend before opening, and in fact, was
allowed to ride my bike on the grounds!
Didn't try that last year, so I don't know if bikes are still allowed.

John

[John T]

I was able to get into the dealer buildings on Sunday just fine,
snooping around for a good deal on a 196.

All them said they'd wouldn't give a firm price til monday. They wanted
to check the competition...

John

[John T]

You can get a weeklong wristband.

John

[Cy Galley]

Many that arrive early, volunteer and do many of the jobs of getting ready
for the convention.
--
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot

"David Odum" <MyFirstName@AirplaneZone> wrote in message
...
> "Montblack" > wrote:
>
>>Can you walk around looking at planes (for free) on Saturday 23rd and
>>Sunday
>>24th? Show opens on Monday, July 25th. When do they start charging 'gate
>>admission' at Oshkosh?
>
> I was about to post a similar question. If I were flying to OSH as in
> years past, I could arrive a few days early and have de facto access
> to the grounds and flight line prior to the official opening on July
> 25. Unfortunately, circumstances this year force me to drive there
> instead (I haven't driven to OSH in over 20 years), but I'd still like
> to arrive a few days early to photograph the early arrivals such as
> the en masse caravans and perhaps some big iron.
>
> I don't mind if I have to pay for grounds access prior to July 25, I
> just don't want to arrive a few days early and discover that only
> those with "official" biz are permitted grounds and/or flight line
> access. Anyone have the poop?
>
> David Odum -- email: David at AirplaneZone dot com
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

>I was able to get into the dealer buildings on Sunday just fine, snooping
>around for a good deal on a 196.
>
> All them said they'd wouldn't give a firm price til monday. They wanted to
> check the competition...

Yeah, that was my experience, too. Before the show starts, the vendors are
all psyched up and cocky -- and who can blame them? Why should they give
anyone a price right before 800,000 people descend on them?

Don't expect any "deals" until mid-week. And then don't expect any really
good deals on the "hot items" (whatever they are -- it changes every year).

However, if you're looking for something that's both (a) well represented by
many vendors, and (b) not "the new thing" on the field this year (like, for
instance, and JPI EDM-700 engine analyzer) you can expect to find really
good deals in OSH.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roy Page]

I am paying my first visit to OSH this year.
What kind of good deals have been given in the past ?

--
Roy
N5804F - PA28-181 Piper Archer II

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:7Zxwe.100462$x96.75640@attbi_s72...
> >I was able to get into the dealer buildings on Sunday just fine, snooping
> >around for a good deal on a 196.
>>
>> All them said they'd wouldn't give a firm price til monday. They wanted
>> to check the competition...
>
> Yeah, that was my experience, too. Before the show starts, the vendors
> are all psyched up and cocky -- and who can blame them? Why should they
> give anyone a price right before 800,000 people descend on them?
>
> Don't expect any "deals" until mid-week. And then don't expect any really
> good deals on the "hot items" (whatever they are -- it changes every
> year).
>
> However, if you're looking for something that's both (a) well represented
> by many vendors, and (b) not "the new thing" on the field this year (like,
> for instance, and JPI EDM-700 engine analyzer) you can expect to find
> really good deals in OSH.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

>I am paying my first visit to OSH this year.
> What kind of good deals have been given in the past ?

Congratulations! You're in for the time of your life.

Let's see. I bought by first, second and third GPS's at OSH, and was able
to beat any listed price, anywhere, on each of them.

I have bought five pairs of headsets at OSH -- and have always beaten any
published price. Hell, one year the president of Lightspeed GAVE me a pair.

My JPI engine analyzer was hundreds less than any price you'll see in a
catalog, as was my Narco 810+R com radio (the digital slide-in replacement
for the venerable Narco 120).

And I'm not even mentioning all the stuff we've obtained at OSH for our
aviation theme-suite hotel. Everything from wing ribs to propellers can be
obtained for pennies on the dollar at OSH, as compared to any other source.

Best of all, you get to see/touch/feel/play/twiddle all these things BEFORE
they arrive at your door. Seeing and testing a GPS with a qualified
manufacturing rep is worth hundreds right there -- and it's simply not an
experience that can be had when you live hundreds of miles from the nearest
major metropolitan area.

Oshkosh is heaven for pilots and aircraft owners. There is no substitute --
although Sun N Fun comes pretty close.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave Stadt]

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "Cy Galley" > wrote:
>
> >Many that arrive early, volunteer and do many of the jobs of getting
ready
> >for the convention.
>
> The NOTAM says it starts on Saturday morning. Is there any
> particular arrival procedure for those arriving before
> Saturday, or do you treat it like a normal class D arrival?
>
>
> T o d d P a t t i s t
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
> ___
> Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
> Share what you learn.

It will be a normal class D until the NOTAM goes into effect. I'm going in
on Friday and will probably come in on the Ripon arrival just so it feels
right.

[David J. Zera]

John,

Good Afternoon, no officially bikes and not allowed. now with that said
bring it right it!!! before it is officially opened no one will stop you, my
belief is that you will not get hassled until Monday. in my 17 years working
there I never seen a person get hassled before the official start.

Dave J. Zera
Co-Chairman
Safety / Flight line
AirVenture

"John T" > wrote in message
...
>I was on the grounds the weekend before opening, and in fact, was allowed
>to ride my bike on the grounds!
> Didn't try that last year, so I don't know if bikes are still allowed.
>
> John
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Good Afternoon, no officially bikes and not allowed. now with that said
> bring it right it!!! before it is officially opened no one will stop you,
> my belief is that you will not get hassled until Monday. in my 17 years
> working there I never seen a person get hassled before the official start.

Thanks for jumping in here, Dave.

One more question, please:

What are the reasons that bikes aren't allowed on the grounds? We've got
golf carts trying to kill us all day long, 7-car-trams threatening to run up
our heels, parents pulling wagons or pushing strollers, and "courtesy cars"
driving every which way -- but those of us who live in the North 40 all week
can't peddle a bike to save our feet?

Thanks!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> -- but those of us who live in the North 40 all week
> can't peddle a bike to save our feet?

You can peddle it all you want -- just don't try to pedal it. :-)

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[David Odum]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>What are the reasons that bikes aren't allowed on the grounds? We've got
>golf carts trying to kill us all day long, 7-car-trams threatening to run up
>our heels, parents pulling wagons or pushing strollers, and "courtesy cars"
>driving every which way -- but those of us who live in the North 40 all week
>can't peddle a bike to save our feet?

Jay,

I think that the Airventure policy regarding bikes during the show is
well considered and correct. It's not that I'm not anti-bike. Quite
the contrary, I love cycling. I raced bikes full time in the mid 70s
for four years straight and have more than 50,000 bike miles on the
road to date. Unfortunately, if bikes were allowed at Airventure
during the show there would be far too many people on bikes trying to
weave in and around the foot traffic, and I'd be one of them. :)

David Odum - email: David at AirplaneZone dot com

[Matt Whiting]

David Odum wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>
>>What are the reasons that bikes aren't allowed on the grounds? We've got
>>golf carts trying to kill us all day long, 7-car-trams threatening to run up
>>our heels, parents pulling wagons or pushing strollers, and "courtesy cars"
>>driving every which way -- but those of us who live in the North 40 all week
>>can't peddle a bike to save our feet?
>
>
> Jay,
>
> I think that the Airventure policy regarding bikes during the show is
> well considered and correct. It's not that I'm not anti-bike. Quite
> the contrary, I love cycling. I raced bikes full time in the mid 70s
> for four years straight and have more than 50,000 bike miles on the
> road to date. Unfortunately, if bikes were allowed at Airventure
> during the show there would be far too many people on bikes trying to
> weave in and around the foot traffic, and I'd be one of them. :)
>
> David Odum - email: David at AirplaneZone dot com
>
>

I can't believe it would be that hard to set up a bike path or two. For
that matter, they should separate the golf carts and other conveyances
from the foot traffic. This isn't rocket science to figure out and not
that hard to implement.


Matt

[Jay Honeck]

>> -- but those of us who live in the North 40 all week can't peddle a bike
>> to save our feet?
>
> You can peddle it all you want -- just don't try to pedal it. :-)

Danged stupid chell-specker...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I think that the Airventure policy regarding bikes during the show is
> well considered and correct. It's not that I'm not anti-bike. Quite
> the contrary, I love cycling. I raced bikes full time in the mid 70s
> for four years straight and have more than 50,000 bike miles on the
> road to date. Unfortunately, if bikes were allowed at Airventure
> during the show there would be far too many people on bikes trying to
> weave in and around the foot traffic, and I'd be one of them. :)

Well, I hear you. But I sure wish there were some bike paths that we could
use so that getting from my tent in the North 40 to the ultralight area in
the South 40 wasn't a 30-minute (or more) hike.

By the end of the week, none of us can bear the thought of walking down that
far anymore, so we end up skipping huge portions of the show that I'd really
like to see in greater detail.

It seems like a couple of "bikes/scooters only" paths, with parking areas at
either end, would do the trick?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Joe Camp]

I agree 100%! that's one of the most irratating policies the EAA has.
The distances to cover on the OSH grounds are huge. And the crowd that
attends is not getting any younger. Bikes need to be allowed and soon.
Not only do you have to walk great distances, usually you're carrying
a bunch of stuff that makes it all the more harder. Motorized bikes
should be allowed also. Like those Bumble bee bike motors sold at the
convention. I've been to other non-EAA fly-ins, and being able to use
my Dahon folding bike is wonderful. And when the only users with them
are the persons bringing folding bikes in their planes, there aren't
that many of them anyway. We've got too many old ladys controlling
EAA, that all they talk about is over conservatisim ad infinitum. I
say the heck with 'em, I'm tired of walking my ass off at the fly-in.
My back isn't what it used to be, and flying my plane there is the
easy part. Covering the grounds is another matter. Years ago, when
FAA administrator Jim Busey attended the Oshkosh convention, he
remarked that the crowd was big, but old. Well, we're even older now!
And what about when we can't walk so far? is it a wonder that
admissions are off at the fly-ins? look at Sun n Fun. The EAA needs
to get their heads out of their a__es and realize this. Quit worrying
about a harmless bicycle hitting some person or plane. There are a lot
worse dangers at a fly-in, like propellers. Danger of fire with all
the fueled planes, winds blowing aircraft around. I can't believe
with dangers like that, they worry about a bicycle. But that's what we
end up with when the EAA has all the proxy votes and has virtual
control of the whole smash, instead of the members, as they should.
Don't sign that proxy vote over to them! Maybe then, we could vote in
bicycles, and who knows what else.

>Well, I hear you. But I sure wish there were some bike paths that we could
>use so that getting from my tent in the North 40 to the ultralight area in
>the South 40 wasn't a 30-minute (or more) hike.
>
>By the end of the week, none of us can bear the thought of walking down that
>far anymore, so we end up skipping huge portions of the show that I'd really
>like to see in greater detail.
>
>It seems like a couple of "bikes/scooters only" paths, with parking areas at
>either end, would do the trick?

[Mark Smith]

Joe Camp wrote:
>
> I agree 100%! that's one of the most irratating policies the EAA has.
> The distances to cover on the OSH grounds are huge. And the crowd that
> attends is not getting any younger. Bikes need to be allowed and soon.
> Not only do you have to walk great distances, usually you're carrying
> a bunch of stuff that makes it all the more harder. Motorized bikes
> should be allowed also. Like those Bumble bee bike motors sold at the
> convention. I've been to other non-EAA fly-ins, and being able to use
> my Dahon folding bike is wonderful. And when the only users with them
> are the persons bringing folding bikes in their planes, there aren't
> that many of them anyway. We've got too many old ladys controlling
> EAA, that all they talk about is over conservatisim ad infinitum. I
> say the heck with 'em, I'm tired of walking my ass off at the fly-in.
> My back isn't what it used to be, and flying my plane there is the
> easy part. Covering the grounds is another matter. Years ago, when
> FAA administrator Jim Busey attended the Oshkosh convention, he
> remarked that the crowd was big, but old. Well, we're even older now!
> And what about when we can't walk so far? is it a wonder that
> admissions are off at the fly-ins? look at Sun n Fun. The EAA needs
> to get their heads out of their a__es and realize this. Quit worrying
> about a harmless bicycle hitting some person or plane. There are a lot
> worse dangers at a fly-in, like propellers. Danger of fire with all
> the fueled planes, winds blowing aircraft around. I can't believe
> with dangers like that, they worry about a bicycle. But that's what we
> end up with when the EAA has all the proxy votes and has virtual
> control of the whole smash, instead of the members, as they should.
> Don't sign that proxy vote over to them! Maybe then, we could vote in
> bicycles, and who knows what else.


EAA I'm sure recosnizes the aging of its members. that is the primary
reason for the sport pilot ruling they pushed hard to get.

EAA is on the skids as any membership chairman can tell you when the
average age of the members keeps creeping higher and higher, year after
year.

They need a program that will get kids back into something other than TV
and CDs,,,,,,,,

The ultralight movement helped, but the recent onus of sport pilot
pushed that all back.

--
Mark Smith
Tri-State Kite Sales
1121 N Locust St
Mt Vernon, IN 47620
1-812-838-6351
http://www.trikite.com

[W P Dixon]

>
> The ultralight movement helped, but the recent onus of sport pilot
> pushed that all back.
>
> --
> Mark Smith
> Tri-State Kite Sales
> 1121 N Locust St
> Mt Vernon, IN 47620
> 1-812-838-6351
> http://www.trikite.com
>

I find that to be alittle strange, at the EAA chapter here there are alot of
the ultralight crowd, a few builders and restorers, and the only person
there under the age of 55 is me,.....the lone sport pilot. A few of the guys
are getting ready for the time when they will need the sport pilot rules.
Dang Mark, the only person I see that is going back because of sport pilot
is you!
I really wonder why that is? Can you not get a pilot cert for some
reason? Not trying to offend you but just wonder why you seem so deadset
against something that is helping someone like myself so much? From what I
see that has pushed the EAA back is the going from actually building an
airplane , to buying a 40 Grand kit. And the biggest reason, is the EAA has
to find a way to get younger people involved.
So please , find some young folks and train them in your fat ultralights
and make them sport pilots!!! Are you against making money? I would think
any biz , especially in aviation would be happy as a bug in a rug to have
another way to make a dollar! Are you just ****ed because you will have to
get the fat ultralights N numbered? I just do not understand your contempt.
Reminds me of listening to Ted Kennedy spewing his rants and never a good
word to say about anything.
Heck you can still fly your "weedwackers" around, and I get the
opportunity to fly an airplane. We should both be happy!
Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

[Ken Finney]

"David Odum" <MyFirstName@AirplaneZone> wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
> >What are the reasons that bikes aren't allowed on the grounds? We've
got
> >golf carts trying to kill us all day long, 7-car-trams threatening to run
up
> >our heels, parents pulling wagons or pushing strollers, and "courtesy
cars"
> >driving every which way -- but those of us who live in the North 40 all
week
> >can't peddle a bike to save our feet?
>
> Jay,
>
> I think that the Airventure policy regarding bikes during the show is
> well considered and correct. It's not that I'm not anti-bike. Quite
> the contrary, I love cycling. I raced bikes full time in the mid 70s
> for four years straight and have more than 50,000 bike miles on the
> road to date. Unfortunately, if bikes were allowed at Airventure
> during the show there would be far too many people on bikes trying to
> weave in and around the foot traffic, and I'd be one of them. :)
>

Last year was my first time at Oshkosh, and I understand that the weather
caused the attendance to be down 5 to 10% from previous years. I sure
would have hated to see bikes in the main areas, the congestion would have
been a lot worse. Lots of trams to ride. As for the out-lying areas, I can
see that bikes could be beneficial.

[Mark Smith]

W P Dixon wrote:
>
> >
> > The ultralight movement helped, but the recent onus of sport pilot
> > pushed that all back.
> >
> > --
> > Mark Smith
> > Tri-State Kite Sales
> > 1121 N Locust St
> > Mt Vernon, IN 47620
> > 1-812-838-6351
> > http://www.trikite.com
> >
>
> I find that to be alittle strange, at the EAA chapter here there are alot of
> the ultralight crowd, a few builders and restorers, and the only person
> there under the age of 55 is me,.....the lone sport pilot. A few of the guys
> are getting ready for the time when they will need the sport pilot rules.
> Dang Mark, the only person I see that is going back because of sport pilot
> is you!
> I really wonder why that is? Can you not get a pilot cert for some
> reason? Not trying to offend you but just wonder why you seem so deadset
> against something that is helping someone like myself so much? From what I
> see that has pushed the EAA back is the going from actually building an
> airplane , to buying a 40 Grand kit. And the biggest reason, is the EAA has
> to find a way to get younger people involved.
> So please , find some young folks and train them in your fat ultralights
> and make them sport pilots!!! Are you against making money? I would think
> any biz , especially in aviation would be happy as a bug in a rug to have
> another way to make a dollar! Are you just ****ed because you will have to
> get the fat ultralights N numbered? I just do not understand your contempt.
> Reminds me of listening to Ted Kennedy spewing his rants and never a good
> word to say about anything.
> Heck you can still fly your "weedwackers" around, and I get the
> opportunity to fly an airplane. We should both be happy!
> Patrick
> student SPL
> aircraft structural mech


Weedwackers eh ?

Sounds like you need an ultralight ride bad !

I like the open, don't care for cross countries, could own most any
plane i wanted, but I like the quicksilver clones i personally build
from scratch,,,,,,,,,

I do enjoy instructing but find the FnAA programs to not produce the
quality of pilot my own haphazzard methods produce.

Not sure, but you've agreed with several of my points,,,,,,,,,

stop by my place for some fun, and if you keep a straight face when we
get back, it's free,,,,,,,,,

and BTW, I don't make my money giving ul lessons at 55 an hour,,,,,,,,
--
Mark Smith
Tri-State Kite Sales
1121 N Locust St
Mt Vernon, IN 47620
1-812-838-6351
http://www.trikite.com

[Cy Galley]

It isn't the oldsters on bikes that would be the problem. It is the
controlled, unsupervised children.

Ever see a "gator" do a wheelie? I have in the hands of a teenager that was
supposed to be working. They do supply trams that one can ride from one end
to the other.

Another solution is to volunteer in a job that uses motorbikes or gators.
--
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot


"Joe Camp" > wrote in message
...
>I agree 100%! that's one of the most irratating policies the EAA has.
> The distances to cover on the OSH grounds are huge. And the crowd that
> attends is not getting any younger. Bikes need to be allowed and soon.
> Not only do you have to walk great distances, usually you're carrying
> a bunch of stuff that makes it all the more harder. Motorized bikes
> should be allowed also. Like those Bumble bee bike motors sold at the
> convention. I've been to other non-EAA fly-ins, and being able to use
> my Dahon folding bike is wonderful. And when the only users with them
> are the persons bringing folding bikes in their planes, there aren't
> that many of them anyway. We've got too many old ladys controlling
> EAA, that all they talk about is over conservatisim ad infinitum. I
> say the heck with 'em, I'm tired of walking my ass off at the fly-in.
> My back isn't what it used to be, and flying my plane there is the
> easy part. Covering the grounds is another matter. Years ago, when
> FAA administrator Jim Busey attended the Oshkosh convention, he
> remarked that the crowd was big, but old. Well, we're even older now!
> And what about when we can't walk so far? is it a wonder that
> admissions are off at the fly-ins? look at Sun n Fun. The EAA needs
> to get their heads out of their a__es and realize this. Quit worrying
> about a harmless bicycle hitting some person or plane. There are a lot
> worse dangers at a fly-in, like propellers. Danger of fire with all
> the fueled planes, winds blowing aircraft around. I can't believe
> with dangers like that, they worry about a bicycle. But that's what we
> end up with when the EAA has all the proxy votes and has virtual
> control of the whole smash, instead of the members, as they should.
> Don't sign that proxy vote over to them! Maybe then, we could vote in
> bicycles, and who knows what else.
>
>>Well, I hear you. But I sure wish there were some bike paths that we
>>could
>>use so that getting from my tent in the North 40 to the ultralight area in
>>the South 40 wasn't a 30-minute (or more) hike.
>>
>>By the end of the week, none of us can bear the thought of walking down
>>that
>>far anymore, so we end up skipping huge portions of the show that I'd
>>really
>>like to see in greater detail.
>>
>>It seems like a couple of "bikes/scooters only" paths, with parking areas
>>at
>>either end, would do the trick?
>

[John T]

I know flight line safety is one of the ones that has scooters for the
volunteers that actually go on the fight line, and flight line ops has a
few scooters for "follow me" type duties, but which jobs let you drive a
gator?

John

[Blueskies]

"Joe Camp" > wrote in message ...
>I agree 100%! that's one of the most irratating policies the EAA has.
> The distances to cover on the OSH grounds are huge. And the crowd that
> snip...
> Maybe then, we could vote in
> bicycles, and who knows what else.
>
>>Well, I hear you. But I sure wish there were some bike paths that we could
>>use so that getting from my tent in the North 40 to the ultralight area in
>>the South 40 wasn't a 30-minute (or more) hike.
>>
>>By the end of the week, none of us can bear the thought of walking down that
>>far anymore, so we end up skipping huge portions of the show that I'd really
>>like to see in greater detail.
>>
>>It seems like a couple of "bikes/scooters only" paths, with parking areas at
>>either end, would do the trick?
>

The trams work pretty well and run pretty much all day...

[RST Engineering]

If you give a forum, the forums folks have a single gator and a few golf
carts. If you are an accredited aviation writer, the press building has a
few golf carts.



Jim


"John T" > wrote in message
...
>I know flight line safety is one of the ones that has scooters for the
>volunteers that actually go on the fight line, and flight line ops has a
>few scooters for "follow me" type duties, but which jobs let you drive a
>gator?

[David Odum]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>Well, I hear you. But I sure wish there were some bike paths that we could
>use so that getting from my tent in the North 40 to the ultralight area in
>the South 40 wasn't a 30-minute (or more) hike.
>
>By the end of the week, none of us can bear the thought of walking down that
>far anymore, so we end up skipping huge portions of the show that I'd really
>like to see in greater detail.
>
>It seems like a couple of "bikes/scooters only" paths, with parking areas at
>either end, would do the trick?

I feel your pain, Jay. I've done my share of schlepping around the
grounds (but starting from the south end of the field). I just don't
think a bike path is practical, and I doubt that those advocating it
here or in the RAH thread have actually given it careful
consideration. Nevertheless, I hope I am proved wrong and that a bike
path is built on the grounds some day.

It's good to know, thanks to David Zera, that bikes would likely be
permitted on the grounds prior to Sunday, July 24. In fact, based on
his information, I'll be arriving on Friday instead of Saturday. :)

David Odum - email: David at AirplaneZone dot com

[Ed Sullivan]

On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 01:33:27 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
wrote:

>It isn't the oldsters on bikes that would be the problem. It is the
>controlled, unsupervised children.
>
>Ever see a "gator" do a wheelie? I have in the hands of a teenager that was
>supposed to be working. They do supply trams that one can ride from one end
>to the other.
>
>Another solution is to volunteer in a job that uses motorbikes or gators.


The last time I was at Osh we were packing a ton of camping gear from
the show camping area to the North 40 where our other aircraft was
parked and repeatedly got run off the sidewalk by jerks in carts who
were carrying nothing and cared less.
Last time for me.

Ed Sullivan

[Cy Galley]

I believe there is a welcome wagon that does transport from plane parking to
camping.

I personally have transported people many times even out into the country
side but it only happens by co-incidence.

Did you wave and ask for help? The volunteers are friendly and like to help
people. My entire group is a service group and does stop and help if
possible.

--
Cy Galley - Chair,
Air Emergency Aircraft Repair
A Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot



"Ed Sullivan" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 01:33:27 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
> wrote:
>
>>It isn't the oldsters on bikes that would be the problem. It is the
>>controlled, unsupervised children.
>>
>>Ever see a "gator" do a wheelie? I have in the hands of a teenager that
>>was
>>supposed to be working. They do supply trams that one can ride from one
>>end
>>to the other.
>>
>>Another solution is to volunteer in a job that uses motorbikes or gators.
>
>
> The last time I was at Osh we were packing a ton of camping gear from
> the show camping area to the North 40 where our other aircraft was
> parked and repeatedly got run off the sidewalk by jerks in carts who
> were carrying nothing and cared less.
> Last time for me.
>
> Ed Sullivan

[David J. Zera]

> What are the reasons that bikes aren't allowed on the grounds? We've got
> golf carts trying to kill us all day long, 7-car-trams threatening to run
> up our heels, parents pulling wagons or pushing strollers, and "courtesy
> cars" driving every which way -- but those of us who live in the North 40
> all week can't peddle a bike to save our feet?


Jay,

I have been told that the bikes are banned due to congestion. Those rules
come from Security
not safety. I would love to be able to take my bike out as well.... I could
use the exercise :)

Now to address your issue about the trams and the golf carts and the fat
guys on scooters ( the scooter guy is me!!! ) ^)

Convention HQ has started to move the motorized equipment off the main drag
during the prime time. They have heard the very valid
issues about the courtesy cars and other equipment VS people and they are
trying very hard to them separate.

Ps. If you see an six foot one 270 lbs guy on a scooter in the AOA area by
the showplanes in the west ramp area keeping the kids and the props
separate say hi! that will be me.!!!

Pss... I tell ya, I love what I do out there, I do believe I make a
difference but the 12 hour days can cook you.

Dave J. Zera
Co-Chairman
Safety / Flight Line

[David J. Zera]

John,

I'll tell you the scooters are not very hard to drive. Come by and check in
at Flight Line Safety we REALLY need help these days ( a number of our guys
have gone south in the last couple of years ) :( we don't have gators
but we have a large number of scooters that need mature guys that are
willing to do an important job and have some fun at the same time!!!!

Dave J. Zera

Co-Chairman
Safety / Flight Line


John T" > wrote in message
...
>I know flight line safety is one of the ones that has scooters for the
>volunteers that actually go on the fight line, and flight line ops has a
>few scooters for "follow me" type duties, but which jobs let you drive a
>gator?
>
> John
>

[David J. Zera]

> Did you wave and ask for help? The volunteers are friendly and like to
> help
> people. My entire group is a service group and does stop and help if
> possible.

> Cy Galley - Chair,
> Air Emergency Aircraft Repair
> A Service Project of Chapter 75
> EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
> EAA Sport Pilot

I have to second Cy, from time to time I have taken out an Gator and if I
seen someone in need of help
I and the rest of the team would help them out. just flag us down and we
will help
you out. I have taken dozens of people to different places of the convention
at all times of the day and night.


Dave J. Zera
Co-Chairman
Safety/Flight line

[John T]

David,
I did flight line safety on and off 2 or 3 conventions. It was OK, and I
liked riding the scooters back and forth on the flight line trying to
look important! :) I'll give it some thought about doing it again, did
flight line ops last year and enjoyed that, but they do kinda shut down
during airshow.

Probably the only downside of FLS was explaining why there was zero
tolerance of feet and stuff over the fireline ("Because its for safety,
and its the rule!").
Always thought that zipping along the flightline with a sickle swinging
along would get the message across....

John

[Blueskies]

"David J. Zera" <*remove > wrote in message ...
> John,
>
> I'll tell you the scooters are not very hard to drive. Come by and check in at Flight Line Safety we REALLY need help
> these days ( a number of our guys have gone south in the last couple of years ) :( we don't have gators but we
> have a large number of scooters that need mature guys that are willing to do an important job and have some fun at the
> same time!!!!
>
> Dave J. Zera
>
> Co-Chairman
> Safety / Flight Line
>


Sounds like an interesting thing to do. What sort of free time do you get, and it does give you free admission, right?

[Jay Honeck]

> Ps. If you see an six foot one 270 lbs guy on a scooter in the AOA area by
> the showplanes in the west ramp area keeping the kids and the props
> separate say hi! that will be me.!!!

Will do! And don't forget our rec.aviation party at our campsite out in
the North 40 on Wednesday after the airshow! Food, adult beverages, and
lots of hangar lying, er, flying... :-)

> Pss... I tell ya, I love what I do out there, I do believe I make a
> difference but the 12 hour days can cook you.

We all really, REALLY appreciate what you guys do, although we may not
always show it.

Thanks!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans]

"David J. Zera" <*remove > wrote

> I'll tell you the scooters are not very hard to drive. Come by and check
in
> at Flight Line Safety we REALLY need help these days ( a number of our
guys
> have gone south in the last couple of years ) :( we don't have
gators
> but we have a large number of scooters that need mature guys that are
> willing to do an important job and have some fun at the same time!!!!

Hmm, that almost sounds better than directing traffic at taxiway
intersections. I didn't realize there were positions opening up!

I'll stay with it, though. <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"John T" > wrote

> Always thought that zipping along the flightline with a sickle swinging
> along would get the message across....

I was thinking more along the lines of flame thrower! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[David J. Zera]

>
> Sounds like an interesting thing to do. What sort of free time do you get,
> and it does give you free admission, right?
>
well....you can put in as little or a much as you want.....

Dave J. Zera
Co-Chairman
Safety / Flight line

[Morgans]

"Cy Galley" > wrote
..
>
> Did you wave and ask for help? The volunteers are friendly and like to
help
> people. My entire group is a service group and does stop and help if
> possible.

Right. All people have to do to get help transporting stuff, is to ask the
guys that helped park you, to radio for a welcome wagon. Sometimes it take
5 or 10 minutes, if all are busy, but they will be glad to get you where you
are going.
--
Jim in NC

[David J. Zera]

LOL!!!
"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John T" > wrote
>
>> Always thought that zipping along the flightline with a sickle swinging
>> along would get the message across....
>
> I was thinking more along the lines of flame thrower! <g>
> --
> Jim in NC

[John T]

>I was thinking more along the lines of flame thrower! <g>

I guess thats why they call it a fireline! :)

John

[John T]

I've never gotten a free admission, but then I don't think I've worked
20 hours either. About the only thing I've been given is a volunteer patch.
I've heard conflicting stories about what it takes to earn the volunteer
patch. When I worked flight line safety, it was said 16 hours, but I've
recieved a patch all but one year regardless of number of hours when
I've volunteered.

I usually get the weeklong wristband anyway.

John

[RST Engineering]

Can somebody confirm that "free admission" assertion for ALL the volunteers?
I don't think that is correct. I think the "officers" (chair, vice chair,
etc.) get some sort of perk, but not ALL the volunteers.

Jim



"David J. Zera" <*remove > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>> Sounds like an interesting thing to do. What sort of free time do you
>> get, and it does give you free admission, right?
>>
> well....you can put in as little or a much as you want.....
>
> Dave J. Zera
> Co-Chairman
> Safety / Flight line
>

[Cy Galley]

"free" admission is earned for the following year after working 20 hours.
--
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> Can somebody confirm that "free admission" assertion for ALL the
> volunteers? I don't think that is correct. I think the "officers" (chair,
> vice chair, etc.) get some sort of perk, but not ALL the volunteers.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> "David J. Zera" <*remove > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like an interesting thing to do. What sort of free time do you
>>> get, and it does give you free admission, right?
>>>
>> well....you can put in as little or a much as you want.....
>>
>> Dave J. Zera
>> Co-Chairman
>> Safety / Flight line
>>
>
>

[RST Engineering]

Thank you, sir. I knew there was SOME sort of comp, but couldn't remember
what it was.

Jim



"Cy Galley" > wrote in message
news:QATxe.129013$nG6.113956@attbi_s22...


> "free" admission is earned for the following year after working 20 hours.

[David J. Zera]

Jim,

Yes you are correct. The perks are earned for the next year. as an example I
put in about 110 hours of time on the job during my time in and I have
earned a couple of perks. will a guy that puts in 8 hours a convention get
the same level no. but all of the FLS volunteers do get to see how things
are from the inside and they do get to get off their feet.

From what I have seen from around the grounds all of the groups have some
sort of incentive program that you can get involved with once you become a
volunteer.


"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> Can somebody confirm that "free admission" assertion for ALL the
> volunteers? I don't think that is correct. I think the "officers" (chair,
> vice chair, etc.) get some sort of perk, but not ALL the volunteers.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> "David J. Zera" <*remove > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like an interesting thing to do. What sort of free time do you
>>> get, and it does give you free admission, right?
>>>
>> well....you can put in as little or a much as you want.....
>>
>> Dave J. Zera
>> Co-Chairman
>> Safety / Flight line
>>
>
>

[Joe Camp]

>I have to second Cy, from time to time I have taken out an Gator and if I
>seen someone in need of help
>I and the rest of the team would help them out. just flag us down and we
>will help
>you out. I have taken dozens of people to different places of the convention
>at all times of the day and night.
>
>
What is a gator?

[Joe Camp]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 04:09:46 -0500, John T
> wrote:

>I've never gotten a free admission, but then I don't think I've worked
>20 hours either. About the only thing I've been given is a volunteer patch.
>I've heard conflicting stories about what it takes to earn the volunteer
>patch. When I worked flight line safety, it was said 16 hours, but I've
>recieved a patch all but one year regardless of number of hours when
>I've volunteered.
>
>I usually get the weeklong wristband anyway.
>
>John

The EAA is unbelievable. If someone donates any of thier free time for
them, they should be given a week pass for the current show without
question.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:08:05 -0400, Joe Camp <> wrote:

>On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 04:09:46 -0500, John T
> wrote:
>
>>I've never gotten a free admission, but then I don't think I've worked
>>20 hours either. About the only thing I've been given is a volunteer patch.
>>I've heard conflicting stories about what it takes to earn the volunteer
>>patch. When I worked flight line safety, it was said 16 hours, but I've
>>recieved a patch all but one year regardless of number of hours when
>>I've volunteered.
>>
>>I usually get the weeklong wristband anyway.
>>
>>John
>
>The EAA is unbelievable. If someone donates any of thier free time for
>them, they should be given a week pass for the current show without
>question.

"Any of their free time"? Like, if I take 10 seconds out of my busy day and
pick up a piece of trash at the entry point, I should get free admission?

I can see EAA's logic. If they gave free admission for the current show, it's
quite possible that they'd have problems having enough volunteers towards the
end of the week. There'd be some of folks putting in 20 hours or so on the
setup weekend, then not doing anything at all during the main part of the show
'cause they already got their free ride.

Seems like their policy is aimed the right way; getting a group of folks who
come back and volunteer in later years. Volunteer in 2005, put your 20 hours
in, get free admission in 2006. Come in free in 2006, and while you're there
anyway, put in a couple hours per day volunteering so you can get free admission
the year after that, too.

None of these shows are possible without the volunteer cadre. I think EAA knows
that if they seriously start shafting them, the Board of Directors will be out
picking up trash themselves. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[W P Dixon]

> Cool!
Hey I am more then willing to try just about anything once,...even had to
fly on a CH-53D when I was in the Corps....somewhere there should be a law
about helos folding !!!!! ;)
I refer to the "weedwacker" as such, not because I don't think it would
be fun, just that is what the sound reminds me of when one flies by...the
old two stroke thing ;) Who knows, with all the travels I am doing to get
this sport pilot thing done, I may just end up your way one day! Just got
back from Waynesville , Ohio about 5pm.
As more and more people find out about sport pilot, that is the biggest
problem...the general public does not know of it's existance! Instructors
need to advertise! I can't tell you all the emails I get from people asking
about where can they go fly? Who is training sport pilots? Interest is out
there,..just not many places are opening their doors yet. Those that have
are doing very well, from what I can see.
Not saying the training is where your money making is all at. but think
of the money to be made with sport pilot type planes? Maybe build some of
those J3 kittens and such? I don't see myself buying an ultralight, but I
may consider the J3 kitten because it looks like an airplane ;)
The Champ I flew on Saturday I waited for a month to get it booked for me,
just a grass field airport and the Cub and Champ barely got re-fueled and
were off again!!
No tower, no radio just good old grass field flying, and the parking lot was
full of cars. Don't see that at the county airport where I live:)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


>
> Weedwackers eh ?
>
> Sounds like you need an ultralight ride bad !
>
> I like the open, don't care for cross countries, could own most any
> plane i wanted, but I like the quicksilver clones i personally build
> from scratch,,,,,,,,,
>
> I do enjoy instructing but find the FnAA programs to not produce the
> quality of pilot my own haphazzard methods produce.
>
> Not sure, but you've agreed with several of my points,,,,,,,,,
>
> stop by my place for some fun, and if you keep a straight face when we
> get back, it's free,,,,,,,,,
>
> and BTW, I don't make my money giving ul lessons at 55 an hour,,,,,,,,
> --
> Mark Smith
> Tri-State Kite Sales
> 1121 N Locust St
> Mt Vernon, IN 47620
> 1-812-838-6351
> http://www.trikite.com
>

[Joe Camp]

>"Any of their free time"? Like, if I take 10 seconds out of my busy day and
>pick up a piece of trash at the entry point, I should get free admission?
>
>I can see EAA's logic. If they gave free admission for the current show, it's
>quite possible that they'd have problems having enough volunteers towards the
>end of the week. There'd be some of folks putting in 20 hours or so on the
>setup weekend, then not doing anything at all during the main part of the show
>'cause they already got their free ride.
>
>Seems like their policy is aimed the right way; getting a group of folks who
>come back and volunteer in later years. Volunteer in 2005, put your 20 hours
>in, get free admission in 2006. Come in free in 2006, and while you're there
>anyway, put in a couple hours per day volunteering so you can get free admission
>the year after that, too.
>
>None of these shows are possible without the volunteer cadre. I think EAA knows
>that if they seriously start shafting them, the Board of Directors will be out
>picking up trash themselves. :-)
>
>Ron Wanttaja

I guess some of us value our free time more than others. How do you
figure that allowing a more generous policy towards volunteers is
shafting them? I value my time, what you do with yours is your
business. Once I spend the time and money to go to an event like
Oshkosh, I want to roam around it freely to suit myself. But if I were
to volunteer my precious time there, I'd want more than to be given a
free pass for next years show, after working all week during the
present one. You are way too protective of EAA's policies. What did
you do, appoint yourself their goodwill ambassador? regardless of the
fairness of their policies?

[Morgans]

"Joe Camp" > wrote

> I guess some of us value our free time more than others.

Laa-te-daa!

> Once I spend the time and money to go to an event like
> Oshkosh, I want to roam around it freely to suit myself.

Still plenty of time to do that, if you go and spend 2 or 3 hours per day,
working.

>But if I were
> to volunteer my precious time there, I'd want more than to be given a
> free pass for next years show, after working all week during the
> present one.

IMHO, you are missing part of the point. When you volunteer, you get to be
a part of it, that gives more satisfaction (to me) than you can imagine.
Shoot, I can't wait to go and work. That is part of the best part of the
week.

>You are way too protective of EAA's policies. What did
> you do, appoint yourself their goodwill ambassador? regardless of the
> fairness of their policies?

Lighten up, huh? He has voiced his opinion, and you, yours. That is what
this is all about.

I like to volunteer; you don't, so don't! No big deal!
--
Jim in NC

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 00:43:08 -0400, Joe Camp > wrote:

>>"Any of their free time"? Like, if I take 10 seconds out of my busy day and
>>pick up a piece of trash at the entry point, I should get free admission?
>>
>>I can see EAA's logic. If they gave free admission for the current show, it's
>>quite possible that they'd have problems having enough volunteers towards the
>>end of the week. There'd be some of folks putting in 20 hours or so on the
>>setup weekend, then not doing anything at all during the main part of the show
>>'cause they already got their free ride.
>>
>>Seems like their policy is aimed the right way; getting a group of folks who
>>come back and volunteer in later years. Volunteer in 2005, put your 20 hours
>>in, get free admission in 2006. Come in free in 2006, and while you're there
>>anyway, put in a couple hours per day volunteering so you can get free admission
>>the year after that, too.
>>
>>None of these shows are possible without the volunteer cadre. I think EAA knows
>>that if they seriously start shafting them, the Board of Directors will be out
>>picking up trash themselves. :-)
>
>I guess some of us value our free time more than others.

I certainly agree... which is why you don't often find me volunteering. I have
great respect for those who do, though. I've had free admission most of my
trips there, anyway. Those time that I haven't, I don't consider the admission
fees onerous.

> How do you
>figure that allowing a more generous policy towards volunteers is
>shafting them?

I don't. My point is that if the *volunteers* think they are getting shafted,
they'll quit volunteering, and EAA knows that. It's fundamental economics...
restrictive policies trim the volunteer pool, overly generous policies mean less
folks paying their way. The trick is the find the proper "set point", and EAA
seems to have found a workable one.

> Once I spend the time and money to go to an event like
>Oshkosh, I want to roam around it freely to suit myself. But if I were
>to volunteer my precious time there, I'd want more than to be given a
>free pass for next years show, after working all week during the
>present one.

See my "fundamental economics" comment above. At any give "set point," there
will be those who feel the drawbacks outweigh the benefits. Obviously, my "set
point" is probably at least as high as yours, since I don't volunteer, either.

>You are way too protective of EAA's policies. What did
>you do, appoint yourself their goodwill ambassador? regardless of the
>fairness of their policies?

Snicker....

Ron Wanttaja

[Joe Camp]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:54:04 -0400, "Morgans" >
wrote:

>
>"Joe Camp" > wrote
>
>> I guess some of us value our free time more than others.
>
>Laa-te-daa!
>
>> Once I spend the time and money to go to an event like
>> Oshkosh, I want to roam around it freely to suit myself.
>
>Still plenty of time to do that, if you go and spend 2 or 3 hours per day,
>working.
>
>>But if I were
>> to volunteer my precious time there, I'd want more than to be given a
>> free pass for next years show, after working all week during the
>> present one.
>
>IMHO, you are missing part of the point. When you volunteer, you get to be
>a part of it, that gives more satisfaction (to me) than you can imagine.
>Shoot, I can't wait to go and work. That is part of the best part of the
>week.
>
>>You are way too protective of EAA's policies. What did
>> you do, appoint yourself their goodwill ambassador? regardless of the
>> fairness of their policies?
>
>Lighten up, huh? He has voiced his opinion, and you, yours. That is what
>this is all about.
>
>I like to volunteer; you don't, so don't! No big deal!


The idea of volunteering does not offend me at all. I have to admit,
after about 2 full days of walking the flightline and exhibition
buildings, I've had enough. And the idea of doing volunteer work from
that point on, I would find a welcome alternative. But I still don't
feel the EAA is generous enough in their repayment of volunteers.
I've talked to volunteers and was suprised how much the EAA makes them
work to get a pass. If a person puts in one full day of volunteering,
they should get a pass for the rest of the show. The volunteers are
still a small number compared to the regular attendees. The EAA is way
too tight with their money. Charging people that bring showplanes
admission is another issue. Warbird owners constantly report non-EAA
fly-in's paying for their fuel if they show up. The EAA however, pays
for no one's fuel, but instead charges admission. If the showplanes
didn't show up, there wouldn't be much of a fly-in. I'm boycotting Sun
'n Fun from now on. They've gotten too greedy.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:55:52 -0400, Joe Camp > wrote:

> Warbird owners constantly report non-EAA
>fly-in's paying for their fuel if they show up. The EAA however, pays
>for no one's fuel, but instead charges admission. If the showplanes
>didn't show up, there wouldn't be much of a fly-in. I'm boycotting Sun
>'n Fun from now on. They've gotten too greedy.

The Seattle-area Warbirds group claim that since Arlington won't be paying
*their* fuel and hotel bills this year, they're not coming. They're having an
event at another airport on the same weekend.

Ron Wanttaja

[John Ammeter]

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:52:41 -0700, Ron Wanttaja
> wrote:

>On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:55:52 -0400, Joe Camp > wrote:
>
>> Warbird owners constantly report non-EAA
>>fly-in's paying for their fuel if they show up. The EAA however, pays
>>for no one's fuel, but instead charges admission. If the showplanes
>>didn't show up, there wouldn't be much of a fly-in. I'm boycotting Sun
>>'n Fun from now on. They've gotten too greedy.
>
>The Seattle-area Warbirds group claim that since Arlington won't be paying
>*their* fuel and hotel bills this year, they're not coming. They're having an
>event at another airport on the same weekend.
>
>Ron Wanttaja

I wasn't aware that Arlington had been paying those
bills.... IMHO, the Blackjack Squadron, flying RV4's,
RV6's, RV8's should be getting their gas paid first since
they are home built experimental aircraft. After all, who
really is the reason for the Experimental Aircraft
Association????

John

[RST Engineering]

John ...

That's a question that I've been mentally rasslin' with for a few years now.
Who **is** the reason for the EAA? Is it JUST Experimentals as the name of
the organization implies? Are the warbirds a part of it only because the
founder of EAA flew warbirds or are they an intrinsic part of it due to the
nature of keeping a beast flying for which there are no readily available
parts?

Are White Knight and Spaceship One a part of it? You can say that they are
experimentals with some assurance, but is it "experimental" in the sense of
"homebuilt"? I think not. Several hundred thousand hours of engineering
and craftsman time and several million dollars in development costs take
them a bit out of the "homebuilt" category. But to argue that they aren't
part of EAA is to disregard Burt Rutan's deep roots in the soil of Oshkosh.

The RV lines had a few visitors in 2003 but the C5A nose to nose with the
AN-24(?) had hundreds of thousands of visitors, most of them EAA members.
Do we discount having attractions like these at Oshkosh simply because they
are not experimental in the least?

To bring it down to a personal level ... I've never built an airplane. I've
only flown in a couple of experimentals. Yet a steady progression of
Cessnas from the 170 (straight) through the 172E to the current 182A have
made a 33 straight year pilgrimage to Mecca On The Winnebago. Am I really
not entitled to be the reason for the EAA?

I am not trying to pick a fight. For obvious reasons I really want to
know --- who IS the reason for the EAA?

Jim
EAA 86698



After all, who
> really is the reason for the Experimental Aircraft
> Association????
>
> John

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yet a steady progression of Cessnas from the 170 (straight) through the
> 172E to the current 182A have made a 33 straight year pilgrimage to Mecca
> On The Winnebago.

A straight Cessna 170? What's that?

[RST Engineering]

The original ragwing 170, not an A or B model.

Jim




"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
>
> A straight Cessna 170? What's that?
>

[Jim Burns]

Maybe not "who" but "what is the reason" and I think that answer is
different for different people, but for me, an EAA member who will also
never build an experimental airplane, and who also has only flown in a few
experimental, the answer is TO DREAM.

To dream about what is possible. To dream about new ways to produce
improved results. To dream what hasn't been dreamed about by anyone else.
To see and hear about other's dreams. Non of the great experimental
aircraft would be reality without those initial dreams dreamt by the people
behind them. Also non of the great production and military aircraft would
be reality without the initial dreams behind them.

So maybe the "who" are the dreamers. Dare to dream.

Jim Burns

[W P Dixon]

Interesting Points Jim!
I think you have hit the nail on the head for the reason alot of folks
are getting turned off by the EAA. I know when I pick up a mag about
Experimentals I want to see how-to's .....not the buy this 40G kit and paint
by numbers. But a tradesman sharing his knowledge for people willing to
learn . I want to read about Homebuilt aircraft and not the latest gadget
from Cirrus.
As for the warbirds, I think maybe they do have a place because of the
lack of available parts. But shouldn't the main topic of the warbirds be"How
we had to fab our own replacement parts?" , instead of the WOW just look at
the pretty old fighter? I don't mind restoration projects, because Lord
knows sometimes as much goes into them as building a plane. Alot of times
building a plane is exactly what you are doing! ;)
But sometimes when I have read the EAA mags it seems there is more about
piloting then building. I think real homebuilders get just as much enjoyment
out of the building process as they do the flying. The flying is the reward
for the fun of labor and effort in building.
I know liability and all that would not let it happen , but wouldn't it
be great if the EAA mags would have articles about building a homebuilt with
the plans as well, like the old MI mags used to do? That would be
HOMEBUILDING!!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

[Jon Woellhaf]

Jim Weir asked, "Who **is** the reason for the EAA? Is it JUST
Experimentals as the name of the organization implies?"

Perhaps the name should be changed to Everything Aviation Association.
That's my interest, at least.

Jon

[john smith]

John Ammeter wrote:
> I wasn't aware that Arlington had been paying those
> bills....

Warbirds have been getting their bills (fuel, oil, meals, lodging, cars)
paid by flyin hosts for years as they are deemed to be the big draw gate
from the non-aviation people.

[Blueskies]

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message ...
> Interesting Points Jim!
> I think you have hit the nail on the head for the reason alot of folks are getting turned off by the EAA. I know
> when I pick up a mag about Experimentals I want to see how-to's .....not the buy this 40G kit and paint by numbers.
> But a tradesman sharing his knowledge for people willing to learn . I want to read about Homebuilt aircraft and not
> the latest gadget from Cirrus.

Are you a tradesman willing to write an article? Finding folks with the knowledge is tough; finding ones willing to
write alo is tougher!

> As for the warbirds, I think maybe they do have a place because of the lack of available parts. But shouldn't the
> main topic of the warbirds be"How we had to fab our own replacement parts?" , instead of the WOW just look at the
> pretty old fighter? I don't mind restoration projects, because Lord knows sometimes as much goes into them as building
> a plane. Alot of times building a plane is exactly what you are doing! ;)

I don't recall the last time I saw an article in Sport Aviation about a specific warbird, let alone about a restoration
of one. There have been a number of articles about exhibition class experimantal aircraft; bought and paid for by the
owner with very little detail about the actual buid - as you say the WOW factor...

> But sometimes when I have read the EAA mags it seems there is more about piloting then building. I think real
> homebuilders get just as much enjoyment out of the building process as they do the flying. The flying is the reward
> for the fun of labor and effort in building.

There are quite a few articles these days about welding, structural design, electrical connections. Not a whole lot of
meat to them tho'. I think a multi issue build along sort of articlee would be good...

> I know liability and all that would not let it happen , but wouldn't it be great if the EAA mags would have
> articles about building a homebuilt with the plans as well, like the old MI mags used to do? That would be
> HOMEBUILDING!!
>
> Patrick
> student SPL
> aircraft structural mech
>

Interesting comment about the liability issue. I suppose they to try not to be too specific because some will most
likely try and come along and say "That's what Sport Aviation said to do!"

Dan D...

[W P Dixon]

Hey Dan,
Well I am not much of a writer, but I am willing to help anyone who asks
for it as far as my skill as a metalsmith. I think to be able to write for
the mag , one should be able to write better than myself. But if asked I
would probably give it a try.
And yep the whole liability thing BLOWS! It would really be nice to have
a homebuilt airplane covered from the plans thru the building process.
Drawings right there in the mag!!! Wouldn't that get a new person interested
if he saw all that in an issue?
To tell the truth I do not recall the last article I read of a warplane
either, because I wouldn't read it ;) My warplane remarks pertained mostly
to the warplanes at EAA events and such,...just the WOW factor! I'd much
rather see how they actually did the restoration in a mag ..especially if it
takes the alloted space of a Cessna story or some such. And heck, I love
seeing the old warbirds myself! But like Jim I have to think where it all
fits in to Experimental and Homebuilt aircraft.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Interesting Points Jim!
>> I think you have hit the nail on the head for the reason alot of folks
>> are getting turned off by the EAA. I know when I pick up a mag about
>> Experimentals I want to see how-to's .....not the buy this 40G kit and
>> paint by numbers. But a tradesman sharing his knowledge for people
>> willing to learn . I want to read about Homebuilt aircraft and not the
>> latest gadget from Cirrus.
>
> Are you a tradesman willing to write an article? Finding folks with the
> knowledge is tough; finding ones willing to write alo is tougher!
>
>> As for the warbirds, I think maybe they do have a place because of the
>> lack of available parts. But shouldn't the main topic of the warbirds
>> be"How we had to fab our own replacement parts?" , instead of the WOW
>> just look at the pretty old fighter? I don't mind restoration projects,
>> because Lord knows sometimes as much goes into them as building a plane.
>> Alot of times building a plane is exactly what you are doing! ;)
>
> I don't recall the last time I saw an article in Sport Aviation about a
> specific warbird, let alone about a restoration of one. There have been a
> number of articles about exhibition class experimantal aircraft; bought
> and paid for by the owner with very little detail about the actual buid -
> as you say the WOW factor...
>
>> But sometimes when I have read the EAA mags it seems there is more
>> about piloting then building. I think real homebuilders get just as much
>> enjoyment out of the building process as they do the flying. The flying
>> is the reward for the fun of labor and effort in building.
>
> There are quite a few articles these days about welding, structural
> design, electrical connections. Not a whole lot of meat to them tho'. I
> think a multi issue build along sort of articlee would be good...
>
>> I know liability and all that would not let it happen , but wouldn't
>> it be great if the EAA mags would have articles about building a
>> homebuilt with the plans as well, like the old MI mags used to do? That
>> would be HOMEBUILDING!!
>>
>> Patrick
>> student SPL
>> aircraft structural mech
>>
>
> Interesting comment about the liability issue. I suppose they to try not
> to be too specific because some will most likely try and come along and
> say "That's what Sport Aviation said to do!"
>
> Dan D...
>

[Montblack]

("W P Dixon" wrote)
[snip]
> Well I am not much of a writer, but I am willing to help anyone who asks
> for it as far as my skill as a metalsmith. I think to be able to write for
> the mag , one should be able to write better than myself. But if asked I
> would probably give it a try.


You know what you want to say (you have the experience) ...find someone who
will help you say it. Find yourself a good editor.

With e-mail and Word Perfect, it's a snap.

Mom edits scholarly Catholic books, reference books, encyclopedias, etc. She
says she enjoys working with the professors, scholars, and other (sometimes)
brilliant researchers. Problem with many of them is - they can't write.
Punctuation? Fuhgetaboutit.

Many would-be editors cut their teeth working on small hometown newspapers,
church newsletters, etc. You should be able to find yourself a good editor
with little effort. (They love working at home ...on the side ...per page)

Good luck, let us know when you're published :-)


Montblack

[W P Dixon]

Seems like that would make the editor the writer ,huh ? :)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
>
> Mom edits scholarly Catholic books, reference books, encyclopedias, etc.
> She
> says she enjoys working with the professors, scholars, and other
> (sometimes)
> brilliant researchers. Problem with many of them is - they can't write.
> Punctuation? Fuhgetaboutit.
>
> Many would-be editors cut their teeth working on small hometown
> newspapers,
> church newsletters, etc. You should be able to find yourself a good editor
> with little effort. (They love working at home ...on the side ...per page)
>
> Good luck, let us know when you're published :-)
>
>
> Montblack
>

[RST Engineering]

No, the writer is the one that comes up with the ideas and expresses them in
a manner that is somewhat understandable. The editor puts them into a form
that is consistent with style, grammar, and punctuation.

Both are absolutely necessary to the process; if you can find both of them
in one individual, you've got a rare bird indeed.

Jim


"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> Seems like that would make the editor the writer ,huh ? :)
>

[Jay Honeck]

> That's a question that I've been mentally rasslin' with for a few years
> now. Who **is** the reason for the EAA? Is it JUST Experimentals as the
> name of the organization implies? Are the warbirds a part of it only
> because the founder of EAA flew warbirds or are they an intrinsic part of
> it due to the nature of keeping a beast flying for which there are no
> readily available parts?

Jim, as you know, I tend to get emotional about EAA. I love the
organization with all my heart, but would gut parts of it with my bare
hands, if I could.

Without EAA it's doubtful that my life would have taken the turn(s) it
has -- all of them good. I've attended the fly-in for 23 consecutive years,
have visited the museum often, use their website weekly, read their email
updates every couple of days, and have belonged to two local chapters.

When I was a wannabe pilot (for, like, the first 35 years of my life) EAA
filled the void between "want" and "ability." I lived vicariously through
all the performers and exhibitors at OSH for all those years, and read the
magazine voraciously each month. EAA kept my dream of flight alive, when
nothing -- and no one, not even me -- believed that I would ever achieve it.
For that, I owe EAA my life -- almost literally.

On the other hand, from a business standpoint, they have repeatedly
disappointed me. They are completely inflexible with what is and isn't
allowed at the fly-in, to the detriment of their members, and what they
charge to get on the grounds prevents many small businesses from getting a
toe-hold. Their corporate side completely dissed us when we first opened,
when I contacted them about offering EAA members a discount at our aviation
theme hotel. They didn't even reply, at first -- and when they *did* reply
it was with almost complete and utter disdain. For some reason my
willingness to GIVE their members something was met with a "who gives a
****" attitude that has left a bad taste in my mouth to this day.

Although I continue to offer my fellow EAA brethren the discount, fool that
I am. :-)

Who is EAA? My God, if it had been limited to only home-builders, as some
here would suggest, I'd still be walking the streets instead of soaring in
the clouds. If the articles in Sport Aviation were all about bucking rivets
and building elevators, my interest would have faded away long ago. As
much as I love building things -- my main hobby before flying was
wood-working -- I have NO interest in spending the next 5 years of my life
in an unheated hangar every night, watching my friends flying off to their
weekend getaways. After wasting my first 35 years on the ground, looking
up, I have NO intention of spending any more time than necessary on terra
firma. Life is about flying for me, now.

So who is EAA? I suspect there are an awful lot of guys like me out there,
who love flying, owe EAA an un-repayable debt of gratitude -- yet will never
build an airplane. (And let's not forget the small -- but vocal! --
minority of women pilots out there. Mary would NEVER have learned to fly
without EAA's annual dose of Oshkosh excitement .) Should they be
excluded?

Perhaps the question isn't who is EAA, but rather, where do you want to take
it as a director? If you want EAA to grow and prosper, you're going to
have to take the "Big Tent" approach, IMHO, and welcome ALL aviation
enthusiasts. Each of us brings something to the table that can be used by
other members, whether it's extra hands at a fly-in breakfast, writing
articles for the newsletter, or the knowledge of how to install wing ribs
properly.

If, on the other hand, you want it to be exclusive -- literally -- to
homebuilders, be prepared for the organization to shrink dramatically. In
our chapter(s), only 10 - 20% of the members ever touched a tool, so the
clubhouse might get a bit lonely without the rest of us around.

Without that other 80%, could EAA support the museum? Could EAA support
Airventure? Clearly, I believe, the answer is "no" -- and I would hate to
see those two things go.

My children already dream about OSH every winter, Jim, just like we do --
and I want it to be there for them. Please be careful what you do with our
beloved organization. It's a living, breathing thing that could be easily
harmed -- or killed -- by taking the wrong approach.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[RST Engineering]

Jay ...

I understand that absolutely and completely, which is why I asked the
question in the first place. Before I go down some road that is anathema to
an interest group(s), I wanted validation of my thought process. That is
what is happening here ... I heard some say that the reason for the
organization was "experimental", as in the first word of the name. I wanted
to understand if the majority of the lurkers and posters here thought that
was, in fact, the case. If that WAS the case, I would have thought
seriously about withdrawing from the race because I believe, as you, that
the tent should be enlarged to accomodate all who want to fit in, and not
shrink to only include those chosen few who have had the good fortune and
skills to personally build their path to the sky. I am one with Lyndon
Johnson in that he wanted everyone inside the tent [spitting] out than
outside the tent [spitting] in.

I also believe that there should be some sort of breeder reactor for new
aviation businesses -- local government calls it an "incubator". Whether
that is some reduction in the space rent for the first year of display only,
or a special section set aside for the newcomers, whatever. I remember
vividly RST's first venture into the commercial tents (yes, they WERE tents
back in those days) and knowing full well that if we didn't sell as per our
forecasts that we would be out of business before we got back home. I
further believe that to diss a business out of hand that wants to offer the
membership some sort of a special deal isn't my way of winning friends and
influencing people.

I'll post my platform in these ngs in the next couple of days.

Jim



> My children already dream about OSH every winter, Jim, just like we do --
> and I want it to be there for them. Please be careful what you do with
> our beloved organization. It's a living, breathing thing that could be
> easily harmed -- or killed -- by taking the wrong approach.

[RST Engineering]

I hope that you also include the sistren

{;-)


Jim

>
> Although I continue to offer my fellow EAA brethren the discount

[Jay Honeck]

>> Although I continue to offer my fellow EAA brethren the discount

>I hope that you also include the sistren

You betcha!

I've tried to advertise a "Ladies-Free" night at the inn, but Mary keeps
taking the sign down...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Smitty]

In article >,
"RST Engineering" > wrote:

> John ...
>
> That's a question that I've been mentally rasslin' with for a few years now.
> Who **is** the reason for the EAA? Is it JUST Experimentals as the name of
> the organization implies? Are the warbirds a part of it only because the
> founder of EAA flew warbirds or are they an intrinsic part of it due to the
> nature of keeping a beast flying for which there are no readily available
> parts?
>

No need to wrestle with that question. The EAA, like all good
organizations everywhere, has a mission statement:

"EAA - the Experimental Aircraft Association - is dedicated to serving
all of aviation by fostering and encouraging individual participation,
high standards and access to the world of flight in an environment that
promotes freedom, safety, family and personal fulfillment."

"all of aviation" pretty much answers the question.

I'd personally rather have an organization that is restricted to
homebuilding. I joined my local chapter, found it attended by about 50
members, and learned that none of them are building an airplane. I'd
rather sit on a park bench and chat with two actual builders than sit
around listening to WWII stories. But, I wasn't around to vote when EAA
drafted its mission statement.

[Ken Finney]

"Smitty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "RST Engineering" > wrote:
>
> > John ...
> >
> > That's a question that I've been mentally rasslin' with for a few years
now.
> > Who **is** the reason for the EAA? Is it JUST Experimentals as the name
of
> > the organization implies? Are the warbirds a part of it only because
the
> > founder of EAA flew warbirds or are they an intrinsic part of it due to
the
> > nature of keeping a beast flying for which there are no readily
available
> > parts?
> >
>
> No need to wrestle with that question. The EAA, like all good
> organizations everywhere, has a mission statement:
>
> "EAA - the Experimental Aircraft Association - is dedicated to serving
> all of aviation by fostering and encouraging individual participation,
> high standards and access to the world of flight in an environment that
> promotes freedom, safety, family and personal fulfillment."
>
> "all of aviation" pretty much answers the question.
>
> I'd personally rather have an organization that is restricted to
> homebuilding. I joined my local chapter, found it attended by about 50
> members, and learned that none of them are building an airplane. I'd
> rather sit on a park bench and chat with two actual builders than sit
> around listening to WWII stories. But, I wasn't around to vote when EAA
> drafted its mission statement.

FWIW: I've been to three different EAA chapters. One had about 20 people
in attendance, and probably 8 planes under construction. Another had
probably 40 people with zero planes under construction. The third had at
least 60 people, and at least 20 planes under construction.

[Ernest Christley]

Smitty wrote:
>
> I'd personally rather have an organization that is restricted to
> homebuilding. I joined my local chapter, found it attended by about 50
> members, and learned that none of them are building an airplane. I'd
> rather sit on a park bench and chat with two actual builders than sit
> around listening to WWII stories. But, I wasn't around to vote when EAA
> drafted its mission statement.


I'm with Smitty. I stopped going to the local chapter meetings. There
just wasn't anything there that would help my project along, and I found
the constant 'oohs' and 'aahs' over expensive commercial planes and big
metal military equipment a little hard to stomach. I haven't noticed
very many other builders there the few times I have gone.

Not to discount Jay's sentiment, but the EAA has become an aviation glee
club, but I want to play ball, not sit on the sidelines. I'd be happy
if the biggest flyins still had only one tent, if that. Small tents
with normal people telling how they create airplanes with limited
resources. The cheering section isn't needed, or desired.

The high-dollar tool vendors with their glitzy overproductions are also
optional. Hell, anybody can create a masterpiece with enough money to
spend on tools. It takes a special type of person to create a perfect
bend with a couple 2x4s and a few door hinges.

The airshows? Distracting and purposeless, except to demonstrate a
building technique or design. As they are...pure useless fluff.

But, heh. That's just me.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[jsbougher]

Jay, as a long time lurker, I have to agree with much/most of what you
said. EAA allowed me to live vicariously for many years before I could
afford to start building. I too read every magazine cover to cover.
While I've managed to start a project, regular 2 year moves due to my
career + children have put it on hold. On the other hand, I have
finally reached the point where I can afford to own and fly a plane and
am the proud owner of an experimental that was lovingly created by
someone else. I understand others feelings - let it be for builders
only. That said, I hope they understand that the great mass of us who
have not started/completed a project admire and respect them for their
accomplishment and that the EAA lets us support what we all feel is a
wonderful sport. I'm a big tent proponent and believe that it allows
us to foster and support the dreams of the many and the reality of the
few.
Jeff

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > That's a question that I've been mentally rasslin' with for a few years
> > now. Who **is** the reason for the EAA? Is it JUST Experimentals as the
> > name of the organization implies? Are the warbirds a part of it only
> > because the founder of EAA flew warbirds or are they an intrinsic part of
> > it due to the nature of keeping a beast flying for which there are no
> > readily available parts?
>
> Jim, as you know, I tend to get emotional about EAA. I love the
> organization with all my heart, but would gut parts of it with my bare
> hands, if I could.
>
> Without EAA it's doubtful that my life would have taken the turn(s) it
> has -- all of them good. ...
>
> My children already dream about OSH every winter, Jim, just like we do --
> and I want it to be there for them. Please be careful what you do with our
> beloved organization. It's a living, breathing thing that could be easily
> harmed -- or killed -- by taking the wrong approach.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"