Homebuilding Killed John Walton

[Carl]

I just read in the newspaper that John Walton, the billionaire son of
Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton, was killed in a homebuilt airplane? That
got me thinking to look for a NG that might be dedicated to this
activity, and I found this one.

This is all new to me, quite honestly, and disturbing. People are
building airplanes at home and then flying them? This is endangering
people on the ground and in the air flying in real airplanes.

I guess the good thing from Mr. Walton's death is that the public at
large knows about this practice, and maybe can do something about it
to make our skyways a safer place.

[Lakeview Bill]

Please don't feed the troll...


"Carl" > wrote in message
...
> I just read in the newspaper that John Walton, the billionaire son of
> Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton, was killed in a homebuilt airplane? That
> got me thinking to look for a NG that might be dedicated to this
> activity, and I found this one.
>
> This is all new to me, quite honestly, and disturbing. People are
> building airplanes at home and then flying them? This is endangering
> people on the ground and in the air flying in real airplanes.
>
> I guess the good thing from Mr. Walton's death is that the public at
> large knows about this practice, and maybe can do something about it
> to make our skyways a safer place.

[Mark Hickey]

Carl > wrote:

>I just read in the newspaper that John Walton, the billionaire son of
>Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton, was killed in a homebuilt airplane? That
>got me thinking to look for a NG that might be dedicated to this
>activity, and I found this one.
>
>This is all new to me, quite honestly, and disturbing. People are
>building airplanes at home and then flying them? This is endangering
>people on the ground and in the air flying in real airplanes.
>
>I guess the good thing from Mr. Walton's death is that the public at
>large knows about this practice, and maybe can do something about it
>to make our skyways a safer place.

An awfully shallow trolll, methinks. You should have added something
about the potential for flying ultralights into skyscrapers.

Mark "anything worth doing..." Hickey

[CB]

Or flying factory-built Cessnas into the White House or Pentagon -
they'd do almost as much damage as a Cooper Mini.

[Corky Scott]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:27:46 GMT, "Lakeview Bill"
> wrote:

>Please don't feed the troll...

Gotta be a troll, his e-mail address did not work.

Corky Scott

[patrick mitchel]

From the news that's been on so far it's been described as a 500 lb pusher.
Titan tornado? Thundergull? Pat

[Mark Smith]

patrick mitchel wrote:
>
> From the news that's been on so far it's been described as a 500 lb pusher.
> Titan tornado? Thundergull? Pat



If you mean the Walton plane,

a CGS Hawk
--
Mark Smith
Tri-State Kite Sales
1121 N Locust St
Mt Vernon, IN 47620
1-812-838-6351
http://www.trikite.com

[MJC]

Dip**** troll issue aside; I really am curious as to what the ultralight
was that JW was flying. Not to suggest that whatever it is isn't as safe (or
not) as any of them, but curiosity dictates that it would be interesting to
know.
The wreckage doesn't seem to offer any clues other than that I don't see
much of an enclosed cockpit (unless all the enclosure has separated and been
thrown a distance).
Oh by the way, Carl Troll, be sure to write your congressman and point
out that ultralights like these can be used by TERRORISTS!!! too. Oh my.

MJC

"CB" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Or flying factory-built Cessnas into the White House or Pentagon -
> they'd do almost as much damage as a Cooper Mini.
>

[Rich Ahrens]

Mark Smith wrote:
> patrick mitchel wrote:
>
>> From the news that's been on so far it's been described as a 500 lb pusher.
>>Titan tornado? Thundergull? Pat
>
> If you mean the Walton plane,
>
> a CGS Hawk

Oh lord, I can see an endless Zoom campaign coming....

[[email protected]]

Oh, it's shallower than that. This is a word-for-word copy of the
"Homebuilding killed John Denver" troll post, with Walton substituted
for Denver.

Tim Ward

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, MJC says...
>
> Dip**** troll issue aside; I really am curious as to what the ultralight
>was that JW was flying. Not to suggest that whatever it is isn't as safe (or
>not) as any of them, but curiosity dictates that it would be interesting to
>know.

Just for the record and to stop speculation it was a CGS Hawk Arrow II. When I
sold the kit to John I had no idea who he was .Our dealer in W.VA helped him
build it and it was my impression he was going to N number it. He flew it home
to Jackson Hole WY from W Va about a month and a half ago. When I last talked to
him he was happy as a clam .It was set up for mountain flying ,it had tundra
tires, heavy duty tail wheel and big engine.He also had a set of floats for it.
He had a bad landing a few weeks ago and we sent him parts to repair the damage.
I don't know if this was the first flight after the repairs or not

None of us knew who he was, he acted like any number of guys I've met who
enjoyed to fly and talk airplanes. He said he was a corporate pilot and flew in
one time with a Citation to check in on his plane. That's all we know now and
anything else is a guess. I'm in contact with the NTSB and will offer any help
requested of me.

All we can do at this time is to pray for him and his family .The guy I knew
wasn't a rich and famous guy he was one of us. Rest in peace

Chuck Slusarczyk

[Big John]

Chuck

Tnx for the straight poop.

Any idea of the density altitude when accident took place?

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````
On 28 Jun 2005 14:11:37 -0700, ChuckSlusarczyk
> wrote:

>In article >, MJC says...
>>
>> Dip**** troll issue aside; I really am curious as to what the ultralight
>>was that JW was flying. Not to suggest that whatever it is isn't as safe (or
>>not) as any of them, but curiosity dictates that it would be interesting to
>>know.
>
>Just for the record and to stop speculation it was a CGS Hawk Arrow II. When I
>sold the kit to John I had no idea who he was .Our dealer in W.VA helped him
>build it and it was my impression he was going to N number it. He flew it home
>to Jackson Hole WY from W Va about a month and a half ago. When I last talked to
>him he was happy as a clam .It was set up for mountain flying ,it had tundra
>tires, heavy duty tail wheel and big engine.He also had a set of floats for it.
>He had a bad landing a few weeks ago and we sent him parts to repair the damage.
>I don't know if this was the first flight after the repairs or not
>
>None of us knew who he was, he acted like any number of guys I've met who
>enjoyed to fly and talk airplanes. He said he was a corporate pilot and flew in
>one time with a Citation to check in on his plane. That's all we know now and
>anything else is a guess. I'm in contact with the NTSB and will offer any help
>requested of me.
>
>All we can do at this time is to pray for him and his family .The guy I knew
>wasn't a rich and famous guy he was one of us. Rest in peace
>
>Chuck Slusarczyk

[Jerry Springer]

wrote:
> Oh, it's shallower than that. This is a word-for-word copy of the
> "Homebuilding killed John Denver" troll post, with Walton substituted
> for Denver.
>
> Tim Ward
>
How true, anyone that was here during that time well remember the troll
"white lightning." This latest post is word for word as his. We need
some of the old gang that actually found out where he lived.

Jerry

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, Big John says...
>
>Chuck
>
>Tnx for the straight poop.
>
>Any idea of the density altitude when accident took place?

Not a clue at this time but the plane had plenty of power he wanted something
that could carry a load and take off on floats at 5000' plus.

Could have been a medical condition ..at this point who knows? Just a wierd
accident with no rhyme or reason at this point.

See ya

Chuck S

[John Ammeter]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:55:24 -0700, Jerry Springer
> wrote:

wrote:
>> Oh, it's shallower than that. This is a word-for-word copy of the
>> "Homebuilding killed John Denver" troll post, with Walton substituted
>> for Denver.
>>
>> Tim Ward
>>
>How true, anyone that was here during that time well remember the troll
>"white lightning." This latest post is word for word as his. We need
>some of the old gang that actually found out where he lived.
>
>Jerry

I talked to BWB about WL a few years ago. He said all it
took was a couple of guys sitting out in front of his place
watching him....

John

[Edgar]

"Carl" the troll spewed more of her troll BS..

> I just read in the newspaper

There must have been lots of pictures as you obviously aren't smart enough
to read.


> that John Walton, the billionaire son of
> Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton, was killed in a homebuilt airplane?

Nope. It was an experimental.


> That got me thinking to look for a NG that might be dedicated to this
> activity, and I found this one.

Too bad.


> This is all new to me, quite honestly, and disturbing.

You on the other hand are "old" and disturbed.


>People are
> building airplanes at home and then flying them?

Nope. Homes don't fly dickhead.


> This is endangering
> people on the ground

Where do you live? I need a target to crash on.


>and in the air flying in real airplanes.

Somehow these are not 'real' airplanes? I guess a dickhead would think so.


> I guess the good thing from Mr. Walton's death is that the public at
> large knows about this practice, and maybe can do something about it
> to make our skyways a safer place.

WTF is a skyway dickhead? Too bad you weren't riding in his baggage
compartment (where you belong)!

^^

[Smeghead]

> wrote:
> :> Oh, it's shallower than that. This is a word-for-word copy of the
> :> "Homebuilding killed John Denver" troll post, with Walton substituted
> :> for Denver.
> :>
> :How true, anyone that was here during that time well remember the troll
> :"white lightning." This latest post is word for word as his. We need
> :some of the old gang that actually found out where he lived.
>
> If you mean "White Tornado" it was Anthony Bielobockie in
> Jacksonville, FL. (904) 886-4706. If we still have Uuber Hackers
> around one of them can probably find a current address.

Anthony J Bielobockie
Hidden Ranch Dr N
Jacksonville, FL 32257-3396
(904) 288-8449

[Jerry Springer]

> :How true, anyone that was here during that time well remember the troll
> :"white lightning." This latest post is word for word as his. We need
> :some of the old gang that actually found out where he lived.
>
> If you mean "White Tornado" it was Anthony Bielobockie in
> Jacksonville, FL. (904) 886-4706. If we still have Uuber Hackers
> around one of them can probably find a current address.
>
> And while I do remember the John Denver posts, I don't recall them
> coming from Tornado. But Tornado is going back, what, 8 years?

Your right Richard it was White Tornado

Jerry

[stol]

It is a very sad week here in Jackson Hole. I have alot to tell about
what happened and in the best interest of the investigation I will
refrain from comments for a couple of days to see if the REAL truth
comes out. I can say he didnt suffer at all, except for last 12 seconds
trying to recover from the mess he was in, and he did pilot his Private
CJ2, N525PB several times a week and for thousands of hours. I can tell
you guys his piloting skills were top notch and we need to say a prayer
for him and his family. He was the only one I even considered to let
fly my plane and he was hangared right next to me. I spoke to him
minutes before he took off on that last flight and he was in good
spirits.

Godspeed John........

Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com

ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:
> In article >, MJC says...
> >
> > Dip**** troll issue aside; I really am curious as to what the ultralight
> >was that JW was flying. Not to suggest that whatever it is isn't as safe (or
> >not) as any of them, but curiosity dictates that it would be interesting to
> >know.
>
> Just for the record and to stop speculation it was a CGS Hawk Arrow II. When I
> sold the kit to John I had no idea who he was .Our dealer in W.VA helped him
> build it and it was my impression he was going to N number it. He flew it home
> to Jackson Hole WY from W Va about a month and a half ago. When I last talked to
> him he was happy as a clam .It was set up for mountain flying ,it had tundra
> tires, heavy duty tail wheel and big engine.He also had a set of floats for it.
> He had a bad landing a few weeks ago and we sent him parts to repair the damage.
> I don't know if this was the first flight after the repairs or not
>
> None of us knew who he was, he acted like any number of guys I've met who
> enjoyed to fly and talk airplanes. He said he was a corporate pilot and flew in
> one time with a Citation to check in on his plane. That's all we know now and
> anything else is a guess. I'm in contact with the NTSB and will offer any help
> requested of me.
>
> All we can do at this time is to pray for him and his family .The guy I knew
> wasn't a rich and famous guy he was one of us. Rest in peace
>
> Chuck Slusarczyk

[Andy Asberry]

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:06:05 GMT, "Smeghead" > wrote:

>
>> wrote:
>> :> Oh, it's shallower than that. This is a word-for-word copy of the
>> :> "Homebuilding killed John Denver" troll post, with Walton substituted
>> :> for Denver.
>> :>
>> :How true, anyone that was here during that time well remember the troll
>> :"white lightning." This latest post is word for word as his. We need
>> :some of the old gang that actually found out where he lived.
>>
>> If you mean "White Tornado" it was Anthony Bielobockie in
>> Jacksonville, FL. (904) 886-4706. If we still have Uuber Hackers
>> around one of them can probably find a current address.
>
>Anthony J Bielobockie
>Hidden Ranch Dr N
>Jacksonville, FL 32257-3396
>(904) 288-8449
>
It's not the one at
1089 Cabbage Pond Ct.
Jacksonville, FL 32257
DOB 8-28-68
FL DL# B4120xxxxxx80 ?

[[email protected]]

Jerry, Tim, you're absolutely right. A little googling found the
original (word for word) posted by "Dead Ed" Oct 14 1997. A little
MORE googling showed it was pretty well accepted that "Dead Ed" and
White Tornado were the same person - and both were Tony Bielobockie.

It was amusing strolling through the damage he'd left behind in groups
ranging from Rec.Mustangs to Rec.Cats.

[[email protected]]

Jerry, Tim, you're absolutely right. A little googling found the
original (word for word) posted by "Dead Ed" Oct 14 1997. A little
MORE googling showed it was pretty well accepted that "Dead Ed" and
White Tornado were the same person - and both were Tony Bielobockie.

It was amusing strolling through the damage he'd left behind in groups
ranging from Rec.Mustangs to Rec.Cats.

[Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired]

Smeghead wrote:
wrote:
>>:> Oh, it's shallower than that. This is a word-for-word copy of the
>>:> "Homebuilding killed John Denver" troll post, with Walton substituted
>>:> for Denver.
>>:>
>>:How true, anyone that was here during that time well remember the troll
>>:"white lightning." This latest post is word for word as his. We need
>>:some of the old gang that actually found out where he lived.
>>
>>If you mean "White Tornado" it was Anthony Bielobockie in
>>Jacksonville, FL. (904) 886-4706. If we still have Uuber Hackers
>>around one of them can probably find a current address.
>
>
> Anthony J Bielobockie
> Hidden Ranch Dr N
> Jacksonville, FL 32257-3396
> (904) 288-8449
>
>
>
>
And just what is to be gained by publishing the man's personal data? I
remember his trolling, nothing can be gained by this and there's always
some dummy that will do something stupid with this information.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Bushy Pete]

<snip personal data>> >
> >
> And just what is to be gained by publishing the man's personal data? I
> remember his trolling, nothing can be gained by this and there's always
> some dummy that will do something stupid with this information.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

And just what is to be gained by RE-publishing the man's personal data?

While I commend your intention in pointing out the first posters error, you
compounded it!

Peter

[Kevin O'Brien]

On 2005-06-29 09:42:13 -0400, "stol" > said:

> It is a very sad week here in Jackson Hole. I


> ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:

> Just for the record and to stop speculation it was a CGS Hawk Arrow II. When I
>> sold the kit to John I had no idea who he was .Our dealer in W.VA helped him
>> build it and it was my impression he was going to N number it.


>> None of us knew who he was, he acted like any number of guys I've met who
>> enjoyed to fly and talk airplanes.

>> All we can do at this time is to pray for him and his family .The guy I knew
>> wasn't a rich and famous guy he was one of us. Rest in peace

Ben, Chuck and guys --

I don't read or post here much these days, too busy. But I have a few
things to say about John Walton.

John Walton was a very, very humble guy, who didn't need to be humble.
A few data points on his character, cause he's kind of a Rashomon guy
where different people saw different things. I have been gathering
information here and there and some of it is eye opening.

While he was at college, he took some time off. He joined the Army and
went to Vietnam -- everybody was talking about it, and nobody actually
knew a damned thing, and he thought he'd go see for himself.

He went to the most selective outfit in the Army, Special Forces, and
took it toughest course, 91B2S medic. He used to say that if he was
going to do something, he wanted to be the best. THEN he volunteered
for Vietnam. THEN he volunteered for SOG. He ran recon with, among
others, Spike Team Louisana. In one terrible fight he was awarded the
Silver Star, and spent the rest of his life denying he was worthy of
it, or anything special. "Everybody was doing the same things." (That's
NOT what the other guys from his team say). He also had the Purple
Heart (almost everyone in SOG got this). Everyone did get the
Presidential Unit Citation, a couple years ago when the missions were
all declassified. For those of you who don't know medals, the Silver
Star is the third-highest valour award, the PUC is equivalent to
everyone in the unit getting the #2 award (Distinguished Service or
Navy Cross), and the Purple Heart is given for combat wounds.

During stand-downs, he told his friends he'd get a motorbike and ride
it throughout the USA, and he'd get his pilot's license, after the war
(he did).

He was a general, life member of the Special Operations Association,
probably the most selective veterans group in the USA, maybe the world.
General Membership is restricted to people who conducted combat,
espionage or sabotage missions behind enemy lines. At an SOA meeting
("SOAR") a couple years back he said he would love to be just a medic
on a team again, and the guys believed him. (Other SOA members have
made millions, died poor, and gone to jail). He even joined the
organisation pretty late -- he didn't think he was special. (the other
guys in the organization disagree, and at the time he was in Vietnam
nobody had ever heard of John's father).

He flew his Citation to North Dakota one year before SOAR. He picked up
a guy named Thinh Dinh, who was a Colonel in the South Vietnamese Air
Force. Dinh had come in under hellacious fire to extract John and his
wounded teammates. He was flying an H-34D from the 219th Sqn.
"Kingbees" which was the RVNAF's special ops unit. To put THAT In
perspective, the Marines who always got the crappy hand-me-down gear in
those days had scrapped their H-34s years before. It was powered by a
radial and unreliable and vulnerable even as helicopters go.

John thought that Dinh was a hero, not he.He was half right.

After the war, Sam Walton wanted John to join the business. He tried it
as corporate pilot for a while -- the only job he would take. He didn't
like it and quit to fly as a cropduster for about five years. Then he
got into the boat business, building high-tech trimarans.

Later, his father would entice him back onto the Walmart board, and he
headed up a Walton philanthropic foundation. He was trying to give away
20% of the Walton fortune, which is substantial, in a few years. The
foundation mostly gives money so that poor kids can go to better
schools, and the amounts it gives are staggering.

Any speculation on the cause of the mishap is dreadfully uninformed and
premature. Like many, I have formed an opinion based on news reports,
an opinion that will almost certainly be thrown out or revised as more
credible information is released. We know he was a very skilled pilot
and he was flying a very well established, safe type. At this stage of
the game nothing can be ruled out but I have encountered some really
dumb-ass comments.

John may not have built a plane before (I don't know) but he had built
many boats.

My condolences to all of you who knew John in your different ways.
Right about now, he's trying to decline seating at the head of the
table in Valhalla.

He died doing something we all love. Let me steal a couple of lines
from Laurence Binyon:

He shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old
Age shall not weary him, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember him.

The one good thing that comes of this is that we can talk about his
heroism, his greatness, his human qualities, without him telling us to
knock it off.

cheers

-=K=-

Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article <2005063002582916807%kevin@orgheaderismydomainname>, Kevin O'Brien
says...

>Ben, Chuck and guys --
>
>I don't read or post here much these days, too busy. But I have a few
>things to say about John Walton.

Major snip of a great article.

Thanks Kevin

See ya

Chuck S

[Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired]

Bushy Pete wrote:
> <snip personal data>> >
>
>>And just what is to be gained by publishing the man's personal data? I
>>remember his trolling, nothing can be gained by this and there's always
>>some dummy that will do something stupid with this information.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>
> And just what is to be gained by RE-publishing the man's personal data?
>
> While I commend your intention in pointing out the first posters error, you
> compounded it!
>
> Peter
>
>
Good point.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Darrel Toepfer]

Jerry Springer wrote:

> How true, anyone that was here during that time well remember the troll
> "white lightning." This latest post is word for word as his. We need
> some of the old gang that actually found out where he lived.

This one is in Houston, Tx...

Path:
cyclone.austin.rr.com!news.rr.com!tornado.texas.rr .com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail
From: Carl >
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Homebuilding Killed John Walton
Message-ID: >
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:13:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.174.40.112
X-Complaints-To:
X-Trace: tornado.texas.rr.com 1119964407 24.174.40.112 (Tue, 28 Jun 2005
08:13:27 CDT)
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Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com
Xref: 4rec.aviation.homebuilt:323392

24.174.40.112 = cpe-24-174-40-112.houston.res.rr.com

[Darrel Toepfer]

Richard Riley wrote:

> If you mean "White Tornado" it was Anthony Bielobockie in
> Jacksonville, FL. (904) 886-4706. If we still have Uuber Hackers
> around one of them can probably find a current address.

Same town, new phone number... For Anthony J. Bielobockie that is...

10890 Cabbage Pond Ct

http://www.switchboard.com

[Capt.Doug]

>"Richard Riley" wrote in message > How in the world did you find a DL#? I
>thought they were way harder
> to get than SSN's and address history?

Not if you have the right data-base. Some states don't include the photo
unless you are an LEO.

D.

[Charles Hawkins]

You must not know much about the history of powered air flight. Once all
airplanes were built at home, in shops, and barns. Have you ever heard of
Orville or Wilber Wright? All of their gliders and planes were built at
home.

By the way had these homebuilt planes not been successful, there would have
never been a market for manufactured airplanes. Not everyone has the time
or skill to build their own plane, however many do, and can build airplanes
of design and performance that exceed the manufactured aircraft.

If you have ever seen an air race, almost all of these high performance
planes are handbuilt.

If you would take time to check out the data at the FAA, you would find
homebuilts have no greater occurance of accident than manufactured planes.

Most small plane accidents are operator induced, flying a plane beyond it's
design limits or simply forgetting to put fuel in the plane. These
accidents would occur whether it were homebuilt or manufactures.

You can't build a machine at home or in a plant that can overcome a person
who forget to put fuel in the plane, or flys when they shouldn't, such a bad
or marginal weather.

Check out your facts, and you might see beyond the fog bank to the truth.
"Mastic" > wrote in message
news:1124031529.e28ad3f838e16d8462f60f23d4102196@t eranews...
> Carl > wrote:
>
>>I just read in the newspaper that John Walton, the billionaire son of
>>Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton, was killed in a homebuilt airplane? That
>>got me thinking to look for a NG that might be dedicated to this
>>activity, and I found this one.
>>
>>This is all new to me, quite honestly, and disturbing. People are
>>building airplanes at home and then flying them? This is endangering
>>people on the ground and in the air flying in real airplanes.
>>
>>I guess the good thing from Mr. Walton's death is that the public at
>>large knows about this practice, and maybe can do something about it
>>to make our skyways a safer place.
>
> Troll Alert!
>

[Matt Whiting]

Mastic wrote:
> Carl > wrote:
>
>
>>I just read in the newspaper that John Walton, the billionaire son of
>>Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton, was killed in a homebuilt airplane? That
>>got me thinking to look for a NG that might be dedicated to this
>>activity, and I found this one.
>>
>>This is all new to me, quite honestly, and disturbing. People are
>>building airplanes at home and then flying them? This is endangering
>>people on the ground and in the air flying in real airplanes.
>>
>>I guess the good thing from Mr. Walton's death is that the public at
>>large knows about this practice, and maybe can do something about it
>>to make our skyways a safer place.
>
>
> Troll Alert!
>

This one is so obvious that no alert was needed...

Matt

[Roger]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:53:06 +1000, Mastic >
wrote:


>
>Troll Alert!

Yup, this thing shows up word-for-word (except for the person) every
few months.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>