Meigs now enjoyed by all!

[[email protected]]

With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys a
park property previously
restricted to jet-setters.

....
When it was announced that the city would begin putting on concerts at
Mei...er, Northerly Island, Chicagoist wondered what kind of acts Clear
Channel would book. Would they be acts to consume wine and cheese by
like Ravinia? Noveau hipsters for the kids? Or would they take the easy
way out and book some low-hanging fruit? To our surprise, the answer to
all those questions is "yes."

Earth, Wind and Fire and Chicago will begin a summer's worth of
concerts at the Lakefront Pavillion on Northerly Island on June 24th.
Other acts include Black Eyed Peas and Talib Kweli (June 26), Modest
Mouse (June 28), secretary rock (Gavin DeGraw on July 14 and Jack
Johnson on August 28), and a Steve Perry-less Journey (July 16). And
this summer your mama will dance and your daddy will rock and roll as
the second coming of Loggins and Messina arrives on August 4.

Only eight shows have been announced but more are expected. Tickets
will go on sale this Saturday at 10 AM through Ticketmaster (and
through the venue's website). You might feel better about the prices
if you remind yourself that the concerts are intended-in part-to
raise money for a nature park on the island. Then again, when you
remember that Clear Channel will be taking a chunk, you'll get ****ed
all over again. While Ralph's World's top price comes in at a
family-friendly $15, Earth Wind and Fire are hawking their best seats
for $75. Wha? And apparently someone told Loggins and Messina that
theirs was an Eagles-level event as they're charging $70 and $50 for
seats. Oof. Modest Mouse will set you back $27.50 which would be
reasonable if not for the Ticketmaster fees.

JG

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys a
> park property previously restricted to jet-setters.
>

Are concert-goers required to produce a tax receipt for entry?

Chicago should look into turning O'Hare and Midway into concert venues as
well.

[Bob Gardner]

It's a generational thing...I wouldn't walk across the street to see any of
the acts you mention. IMHO there has been no good music since the 1960s.

Bob Gardner

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys a
> park property previously
> restricted to jet-setters.
>
> ...
> When it was announced that the city would begin putting on concerts at
> Mei...er, Northerly Island, Chicagoist wondered what kind of acts Clear
> Channel would book. Would they be acts to consume wine and cheese by
> like Ravinia? Noveau hipsters for the kids? Or would they take the easy
> way out and book some low-hanging fruit? To our surprise, the answer to
> all those questions is "yes."
>
> Earth, Wind and Fire and Chicago will begin a summer's worth of
> concerts at the Lakefront Pavillion on Northerly Island on June 24th.
> Other acts include Black Eyed Peas and Talib Kweli (June 26), Modest
> Mouse (June 28), secretary rock (Gavin DeGraw on July 14 and Jack
> Johnson on August 28), and a Steve Perry-less Journey (July 16). And
> this summer your mama will dance and your daddy will rock and roll as
> the second coming of Loggins and Messina arrives on August 4.
>
> Only eight shows have been announced but more are expected. Tickets
> will go on sale this Saturday at 10 AM through Ticketmaster (and
> through the venue's website). You might feel better about the prices
> if you remind yourself that the concerts are intended-in part-to
> raise money for a nature park on the island. Then again, when you
> remember that Clear Channel will be taking a chunk, you'll get ****ed
> all over again. While Ralph's World's top price comes in at a
> family-friendly $15, Earth Wind and Fire are hawking their best seats
> for $75. Wha? And apparently someone told Loggins and Messina that
> theirs was an Eagles-level event as they're charging $70 and $50 for
> seats. Oof. Modest Mouse will set you back $27.50 which would be
> reasonable if not for the Ticketmaster fees.
>
> JG
>

[Icebound]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> It's a generational thing...I wouldn't walk across the street to see any
> of the acts you mention. IMHO there has been no good music since the
> 1960s.
>

.... Yes, with the possible exception of Chris de Burgh ...

[Bob Gardner]

Who dat? The only thing that keeps me from going on Jeopardy and eclipsing
Ken Jennings is fear that I will be faced with a category involving modern
music or performers (can't bring myself to say "singers").

My favorite on-point anecdote has to do with megastar Brandy, who probably
makes more in a day than I make in a year. When she "starred" in Cinderella
on TV, she not only breathed in the middle of a phrase, she breathed in the
middle of a word!! Who taught her to sing?

On a figure skating newsgroup, one poster compared the facial contortions of
Michael Bolton, who for some odd reason was included in a skating show, to
those of someone passing a kidney stone. Singing is not supposed to be
painful, but if you turn off the sound and just watch their faces, modern
singers all seem to be in agony.

Needless to say, my TV goes to "mute" when I see a modern singer/group walk
up to the microphone.

Bob Gardner

"Icebound" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
> ...
>> It's a generational thing...I wouldn't walk across the street to see any
>> of the acts you mention. IMHO there has been no good music since the
>> 1960s.
>>
>
> ... Yes, with the possible exception of Chris de Burgh ...
>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> On a figure skating newsgroup, one poster compared the facial contortions of
> Michael Bolton, who for some odd reason was included in a skating show, to
> those of someone passing a kidney stone. Singing is not supposed to be
> painful, but if you turn off the sound and just watch their faces, modern
> singers all seem to be in agony.
>
> Needless to say, my TV goes to "mute" when I see a modern singer/group walk
> up to the microphone.

Michael Bolton is a "modern singer"?

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Maule Driver]

Bob! Tsk tsk Why be so crusty and old school? Fact is, Chicago
should be right up your alley being a 60s guy and all.

How do you feel about your GPS?

:-)

Bob Gardner wrote:
> It's a generational thing...I wouldn't walk across the street to see any of
> the acts you mention. IMHO there has been no good music since the 1960s.
>
>>
>>...Chicago will begin a summer's worth of
>>concerts at the Lakefront Pavillion on Northerly Island on June 24th.

[Jay Honeck]

> Bob! Tsk tsk Why be so crusty and old school? Fact is, Chicago
> should be right up your alley being a 60s guy and all.

Ah, yes. Chicago.

....The sound of batons crushing protester's heads...

....The sound of bulldozers ripping up runways at three in the
morning...

....The sound of 16 lanes of traffic all grinding to a halt every 10
miles in order to drop 50 cents in a toll booth collection box...

Strange, I don't miss it at all. :-)

(In another life I used to work for the Chicago Tribune.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Icebound]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...

> "Icebound" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> It's a generational thing...I wouldn't walk across the street to see any
>>> of the acts you mention. IMHO there has been no good music since the
>>> 1960s.
>>>
>>
>> ... Yes, with the possible exception of Chris de Burgh ...
>>
>>
>>

> Who dat?

http://www.cdeb.com/maindexnew.html

It is possible that he does not sell as well in the USA as the rest of the
world, but if you like '60s stuff, then it is hard to believe that you would
not like de Burgh's early stuff (1975) even better.

[Blueskies]

> wrote in message oups.com...
> With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys a
> park property previously
> restricted to jet-setters.
>

All funded by the new city-wide 9% sales tax! Don't ever buy anything in Chicago...

[Dave Stadt]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> > Bob! Tsk tsk Why be so crusty and old school? Fact is, Chicago
> > should be right up your alley being a 60s guy and all.
>
> Ah, yes. Chicago.
>
> ...The sound of batons crushing protester's heads...
>
> ...The sound of bulldozers ripping up runways at three in the
> morning...
>
> ...The sound of 16 lanes of traffic all grinding to a halt every 10
> miles in order to drop 50 cents in a toll booth collection box..

It's now 80 cents.

OBTW there has been quite a bit of corruption (surprise) brought to light in
the Daley administration. He has been firing lifelong friends and cronies
left and right. I hear he is buying his shirt collars a few sizes larger as
of late.

> Strange, I don't miss it at all. :-)
>
> (In another life I used to work for the Chicago Tribune.)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Bob Gardner]

I'm a 40s and 50s guy...pre-Beatles.

Bob

"Icebound" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> "Icebound" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> It's a generational thing...I wouldn't walk across the street to see
>>>> any of the acts you mention. IMHO there has been no good music since
>>>> the 1960s.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ... Yes, with the possible exception of Chris de Burgh ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>> Who dat?
>
> http://www.cdeb.com/maindexnew.html
>
> It is possible that he does not sell as well in the USA as the rest of the
> world, but if you like '60s stuff, then it is hard to believe that you
> would not like de Burgh's early stuff (1975) even better.
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Icebound]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> I'm a 40s and 50s guy...pre-Beatles.
>

Ah...

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Bob! Tsk tsk Why be so crusty and old school? Fact is, Chicago
>>should be right up your alley being a 60s guy and all.
>
>
> Ah, yes. Chicago.
>
> ...The sound of batons crushing protester's heads...
>
> ...The sound of bulldozers ripping up runways at three in the
> morning...
>
> ...The sound of 16 lanes of traffic all grinding to a halt every 10
> miles in order to drop 50 cents in a toll booth collection box...
>
> Strange, I don't miss it at all. :-)
>
> (In another life I used to work for the Chicago Tribune.)

You made a good choice to ditch that "life!" What did you do for the Trib?


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Dave Stadt wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>>Bob! Tsk tsk Why be so crusty and old school? Fact is, Chicago
>>>should be right up your alley being a 60s guy and all.
>>
>>Ah, yes. Chicago.
>>
>>...The sound of batons crushing protester's heads...
>>
>>...The sound of bulldozers ripping up runways at three in the
>>morning...
>>
>>...The sound of 16 lanes of traffic all grinding to a halt every 10
>>miles in order to drop 50 cents in a toll booth collection box..
>
>
> It's now 80 cents.
>
> OBTW there has been quite a bit of corruption (surprise) brought to light in
> the Daley administration. He has been firing lifelong friends and cronies
> left and right. I hear he is buying his shirt collars a few sizes larger as
> of late.

Can a mayor fire himself? :-) Most corruption starts at the top.


Matt

[BTIZ]

> With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys a
> park property previously
> restricted to jet-setters.
>

Funny... my Jet would not fit in there.. I had to park it up north and get
there by helo shuttle..

There were a lot of propeller driven planes that were stuck there.. not too
many jets I think.

BT

[Jay Honeck]

> You made a good choice to ditch that "life!" What did you do for the
> Trib?

I was a Circulation District Sales Manager, with S.E. Wisconsin as my
territory, back in the late 80s.

It wasn't a bad gig, except for those early morning meetings in downtown
Chicago. Gawd, I'd have to leave at 4:30 AM to be there by 8 AM.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Gardner]

I used to deliver the Trib when it cost three cents a copy...back in the
late thirties and early forties.

Bob Gardner

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:m2Jxe.125894$xm3.41551@attbi_s21...
>> You made a good choice to ditch that "life!" What did you do for the
>> Trib?
>
> I was a Circulation District Sales Manager, with S.E. Wisconsin as my
> territory, back in the late 80s.
>
> It wasn't a bad gig, except for those early morning meetings in downtown
> Chicago. Gawd, I'd have to leave at 4:30 AM to be there by 8 AM.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Bob Gardner]

That's pretty severe. Don't like Gershwin, Rogers and Hart/Hammerstein?
Jerome Kern? Lots of good music 1920 through the early 60s.

Bob

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 18:14:03 -0700, "Bob Gardner" >
> wrote:
>
> :I'm a 40s and 50s guy...pre-Beatles.
>
> For my money, you're in the wrong century.
>
> Everything after Stravinsky is crap.

[Cub Driver]

On 2 Jul 2005 11:07:23 -0700, wrote:

>Earth, Wind and Fire and Chicago will begin a summer's worth of
>concerts at the Lakefront Pavillion on Northerly Island on June 24th.

Be still, my beating heart!



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Thomas Borchert]

Icebound,

> .... Yes, with the possible exception of Chris de Burgh ...
>

<SHUDDER>

;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Dave,

> there has been quite a bit of corruption (surprise) brought to light in
> the Daley administration.
>

Really? ;-)

That's not even surprising for someone living in Germany.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

I know, don't feed the trolls and all, but I wonder how they ever let
me in with my 1956-built prop-driven shabby old little plane.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Chris]

"Icebound" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
> ...
>> It's a generational thing...I wouldn't walk across the street to see any
>> of the acts you mention. IMHO there has been no good music since the
>> 1960s.
>>
>
> ... Yes, with the possible exception of Chris de Burgh ...

You cannot be serious..... ugh!

[Chris]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 18:14:03 -0700, "Bob Gardner" >
> wrote:
>
> :I'm a 40s and 50s guy...pre-Beatles.
>
> For my money, you're in the wrong century.
>
> Everything after Stravinsky is crap.

actually the Beatles and Stravinsky are contemporaries. Lennon died 10 years
after Stravinsky.

[Icebound]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Icebound,
>
>> .... Yes, with the possible exception of Chris de Burgh ...
>>
>
> <SHUDDER>
>
> ;-)
>

LOL.

He seems to tour Germany more than anywhere else (in fact he is there most
of July)... You guys love his stuff even more than we do. :-)

[Icebound]

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Icebound" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> It's a generational thing...I wouldn't walk across the street to see any
>>> of the acts you mention. IMHO there has been no good music since the
>>> 1960s.
>>>
>>
>> ... Yes, with the possible exception of Chris de Burgh ...
>
> You cannot be serious..... ugh!
>

Very.

An acquired taste perhaps.

I'm not talking about that pukey "Lady in Red" which is about the only thing
which ever played on North American radio.

Most of his other album cuts, especially before 1986, are way more
interesting. Genius.

[Thomas Borchert]

Icebound,

I know. And I can vaguely remember a time 20 years back when I was
delighted to have him as the pre-show gig for Supertramp (is my age
showing yet? ;-)). But I can't stand him anymore. Music is truly
personal...

Recently I tried to explain to some coworkers who Sky were...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Richard,

> The surprising thing is that it's coming to light at all.
>

I see.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Icebound]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Icebound,
>
> I know. And I can vaguely remember a time 20 years back when I was
> delighted to have him as the pre-show gig for Supertramp (is my age
> showing yet? ;-)). But I can't stand him anymore. Music is truly
> personal...
>

Really...

He is the only "pop" artist of all time, where I can throw 5 of his CDs on
the changer, put it into "shuffle" mode, and let it play all day without
getting bored... then do it again the next day ;-)

But then, his personal life doesn't get much exposure over here, so most of
us only know his music and his on-stage persona. Perhaps if he was in our
face more often (sort of like Elton John), then we could get to
not-stand-him also... ;-)

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys a
> > park property previously restricted to jet-setters.
> >
>
> Are concert-goers required to produce a tax receipt for entry?

My DuPage County tax bill has included the DUPAGE airport for decades,
no benefit to me
or 99.999% of the population

>
> Chicago should look into turning O'Hare and Midway into concert venues as
> well.

Well, the concert is enjoyable outside in the park on a blanket, for
FREE! And the firefighters
from Meigs are now deployed to serve all taxpayers.

JG

[Thomas Borchert]

> no benefit to me
> or 99.999% of the population
>

You actually believe the stuff you're posting here, including that
little non-truth?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Peter Duniho]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> You actually believe the stuff you're posting here, including that
> little non-truth?

He's either an idiot or a troll (or both). Either way, why keep feeding
him?

[Thomas Borchert]

Peter,

> Either way, why keep feeding
> him?
>

I was so stunned he came back at all after that first post, I just had
to reply.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jimmy B.]

Bob Gardner wrote:
> It's a generational thing...I wouldn't walk across the street to see any of
> the acts you mention. IMHO there has been no good music since the 1960s.
>
> Bob Gardner

You're dating yourself, Bob. :-)


>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys a
>>park property previously
>>restricted to jet-setters.
>>
>>...
>>When it was announced that the city would begin putting on concerts at
>>Mei...er, Northerly Island, Chicagoist wondered what kind of acts Clear
>>Channel would book. Would they be acts to consume wine and cheese by
>>like Ravinia? Noveau hipsters for the kids? Or would they take the easy
>>way out and book some low-hanging fruit? To our surprise, the answer to
>>all those questions is "yes."
>>
>>Earth, Wind and Fire and Chicago will begin a summer's worth of
>>concerts at the Lakefront Pavillion on Northerly Island on June 24th.
>>Other acts include Black Eyed Peas and Talib Kweli (June 26), Modest
>>Mouse (June 28), secretary rock (Gavin DeGraw on July 14 and Jack
>>Johnson on August 28), and a Steve Perry-less Journey (July 16). And
>>this summer your mama will dance and your daddy will rock and roll as
>>the second coming of Loggins and Messina arrives on August 4.
>>
>>Only eight shows have been announced but more are expected. Tickets
>>will go on sale this Saturday at 10 AM through Ticketmaster (and
>>through the venue's website). You might feel better about the prices
>>if you remind yourself that the concerts are intended-in part-to
>>raise money for a nature park on the island. Then again, when you
>>remember that Clear Channel will be taking a chunk, you'll get ****ed
>>all over again. While Ralph's World's top price comes in at a
>>family-friendly $15, Earth Wind and Fire are hawking their best seats
>>for $75. Wha? And apparently someone told Loggins and Messina that
>>theirs was an Eagles-level event as they're charging $70 and $50 for
>>seats. Oof. Modest Mouse will set you back $27.50 which would be
>>reasonable if not for the Ticketmaster fees.
>>
>>JG
>>
>
>
>

[Judah]

wrote in news:1120327643.302827.150340
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys
> a park property previously restricted to jet-setters.


<snip>

Are you kidding?

1. Have you seen those ticket prices? You could have learned to fly for
less!

2. Jets didn't land at Meigs. The folks who flew out of Meigs were
specifically NOT jet-setters.

3. Single Engine Prop planes make substantially less noise than most of the
bands listed [Black Eyed Peas, for example]

4. Companies like Clear Channel and TicketMaster will give back much more
to the local community than the aviation businesses based at Meigs? How
many jobs have they created at the concert arena?

The common taxpayer was swindled into subsidizing another Media
Conglomerate winfall project...

Congratulations!

[Ed Sullivan]

On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 16:40:19 -0400, "Icebound"
> wrote:


>>
>
>... Yes, with the possible exception of Chris de Burgh ...
>
>Any relation to Lady Catherine in Pride and Prejudice?
>

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > > With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys a
> > > park property previously restricted to jet-setters.
> > >
> >
> > Are concert-goers required to produce a tax receipt for entry?
>
> My DuPage County tax bill has included the DUPAGE airport for decades,
> no benefit to me
> or 99.999% of the population


So why in hell are you posting on a pilots' NG, you ignorant *******? GA
benefits EVERYBODY -- you, in your ignorance, just wouldn't recognize it
if it bit you in the ass!



> > Chicago should look into turning O'Hare and Midway into concert venues as
> > well.
>
> Well, the concert is enjoyable outside in the park on a blanket, for
> FREE! And the firefighters
> from Meigs are now deployed to serve all taxpayers.


They always were! It is just the crooked Daley Machine that benefits --
he is giving you bread and circuses to cover up his malfeasance.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Dave Stadt]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:53:35 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> > wrote:
>
> :Dave,
> :
> :> there has been quite a bit of corruption (surprise) brought to light in
> :> the Daley administration.
> :>
> :
> :Really? ;-)
> :
> :That's not even surprising for someone living in Germany.
>
> The surprising thing is not that there is corruption.
>
> The surprising thing is that it's coming to light at all.

Bingo!

[Dave Stadt]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> wrote in news:1120327643.302827.150340
> @g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys
> > a park property previously restricted to jet-setters.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Are you kidding?
>
> 1. Have you seen those ticket prices? You could have learned to fly for
> less!
>
> 2. Jets didn't land at Meigs. The folks who flew out of Meigs were
> specifically NOT jet-setters.
>
> 3. Single Engine Prop planes make substantially less noise than most of
the
> bands listed [Black Eyed Peas, for example]
>
> 4. Companies like Clear Channel and TicketMaster will give back much more
> to the local community than the aviation businesses based at Meigs? How
> many jobs have they created at the concert arena?

The money leaves with the performers. Bottom line, less money available to
be spent in Chicago. Chicago loses.

[Andrew Gideon]

Dave Stadt wrote:

> ChicagoÂ*loses.

When you put it that way, it sounds pretty good. Chicago can keep on losing
until they restore the airport.

- Andrew

[[email protected]]

<<It's a generational thing...I wouldn't walk across the street to see
any of
the acts you mention. IMHO there has been no good music since the
1960s. >>

OMG! I'm past the half-century mark. My favorite music includes the
Eagles, and course, the greatest live rock-and-roll show of all time,
Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band. Never been anything like it
before or since. Nothing even comes close.

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
oups.com...

>
> OMG! I'm past the half-century mark. My favorite music includes the
> Eagles, and course, the greatest live rock-and-roll show of all time,
> Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band. Never been anything like it
> before or since. Nothing even comes close.

Bull! You never been to an Alice Cooper concert, have ya? :~)

[[email protected]]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> > no benefit to me
> > or 99.999% of the population
> >
>
> You actually believe the stuff you're posting here, including that
> little non-truth?
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

DuPage population is 800,000 people, maybe 400 pilots use it, Get off
my property tax bill
you moochers. Gotta love that GOP low tax crowd, except when it
benefits them.

JG

[[email protected]]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
> > Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > > > wrote in message
> > > oups.com...
> > > >
> > > > With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys a
> > > > park property previously restricted to jet-setters.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Are concert-goers required to produce a tax receipt for entry?
> >
> > My DuPage County tax bill has included the DUPAGE airport for decades,
> > no benefit to me
> > or 99.999% of the population
>
>
> So why in hell are you posting on a pilots' NG, you ignorant *******? GA
> benefits EVERYBODY -- you, in your ignorance, just wouldn't recognize it
> if it bit you in the ass!

2 planes from the private strip in So. DuPage, Brookeridge, have
wrecked in the 1990's on
takeoff, almost hitting traffic and the local fire district (Darien)
built a special station just
for them. Pay for your own toys, jet-setters

> They always were! It is just the crooked Daley Machine that benefits --
> he is giving you bread and circuses to cover up his malfeasance.

30-40 $80,000 salaried FF's are now deployed to serve ALL. Not just the
fly-boys.
Sight-seers can use Gary or Lansing.

JG


>
> --
> Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[[email protected]]

The Park District is a seperate unit funded by property taxes, with the
Meigs fence gone, ALL can enjoy their property.

JG

[[email protected]]

That Bushie rag is losing readers like PlayBoy in a school for the
blind. Unless you like
the latest missing sweetie-pie coverage.

JG

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> My DuPage County tax bill has included the DUPAGE airport for decades,
>

What's the tax rate that supports the airport?


>
> no benefit to me or 99.999% of the population
>

Only if you and 99.999% of the population are hermits. Do you also believe
roads benefit only drivers?


>
> Well, the concert is enjoyable outside in the park on a blanket, for FREE!
>

That implies an admission fee is required to actually attend the concert.
So this former public-use airport has been converted at taxpayer expense
into a venue for private businesses? Do you have any idea what Daley's cut
is?

It's obviously now a significant source of noise pollution.


>
> And the firefighters from Meigs are now deployed to serve all taxpayers.
>

They weren't previously?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
>
> He's either an idiot or a troll (or both). Either way, why keep feeding
> him?
>

For amusement.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> DuPage population is 800,000 people, maybe 400 pilots use it,
>

Where did you get that 400 pilot figure? Are you saying that one must be a
pilot to benefit from an airport?


>
> Get off my property tax bill you moochers.
>

Can you post a property tax bill that shows tax revenue supporting the
airport?


>
> Gotta love that GOP low tax crowd, except when it benefits them.
>

Are you saying that only Republicans benefit from airports?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> 2 planes from the private strip in So. DuPage, Brookeridge, have
> wrecked in the 1990's on
> takeoff, almost hitting traffic and the local fire district (Darien)
> built a special station just
> for them. Pay for your own toys, jet-setters
>

Is the fire station limited to serving only the airport? How many jets are
based at Brookeridge?


>
> 30-40 $80,000 salaried FF's are now deployed to serve ALL. Not just the
> fly-boys.
>

Were they previously limited to serving only Meigs?


>
> Sight-seers can use Gary or Lansing.
>

Or a variety of other airports. But what if my destination is in downtown
Chicago?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> The Park District is a seperate unit funded by property taxes, with the
> Meigs fence gone, ALL can enjoy their property.
>

Couldn't all enjoy it before?

[Jay Honeck]

> Or a variety of other airports. But what if my destination is in downtown
> Chicago?

It's easy: Don't go there. Don't spend another nickel in that crooked
cesspool of a city.

Mary and I won't, until Daley is either dead or out of office -- whichever
comes first.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> That Bushie rag is losing readers like PlayBoy in a school for the
> blind. Unless you like
> the latest missing sweetie-pie coverage.

You talking about the Trib?

Please quote/copy/paste whatever it is you're responding to.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Or a variety of other airports. But what if my destination is in downtown
>>Chicago?
>
>
> It's easy: Don't go there. Don't spend another nickel in that crooked
> cesspool of a city.
>
> Mary and I won't, until Daley is either dead or out of office -- whichever
> comes first.

That's my approach as well. Had a nice vacation there a couple of years
before they razed Meigs. Never again.

I'd just love to be in a situation some day (say CEO of a large company)
to be able to deny something of great value to Chicago (say a Fortune
100 company HQ or similar). Just a dream though...

Matt

[David Dyer-Bennet]

writes:

> The Park District is a seperate unit funded by property taxes, with the
> Meigs fence gone, ALL can enjoy their property.

If I understand correctly how they're using the property now, it's of
no interest to *me*. Whereas the previous use, as an airport, was of
considerable recreational interest to me. (I'm not a pilot, have
never flow into Meigs, and in fact have never so much as *ridden* in a
single-engine fixed-wing aircraft.)
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article om>,
wrote:

> Thomas Borchert wrote:
> > > no benefit to me
> > > or 99.999% of the population
> > >
> >
> > You actually believe the stuff you're posting here, including that
> > little non-truth?
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>
> DuPage population is 800,000 people, maybe 400 pilots use it, Get off
> my property tax bill
> you moochers. Gotta love that GOP low tax crowd, except when it
> benefits them.
>
> JG


DuPage is a large GA airport. Thousands use it, you fool! Maybe only 400
planes there, though.

GA airports are part of our transportation system and fill a vital role
there. Only a fool would deny that.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Morgans]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote

> GA airports are part of our transportation system and fill a vital role
> there. Only a fool would deny that.

Not too mention that a whole lot of GA is training and building hours, for
commercial pilots. Everyone wants to have pilots for their aluminum tubes,
don't they?
--
Jim in NC

[Thomas Borchert]

> maybe 400 pilots use it,
>

And maybe more. Have a source for that number?

While you're digging up facts, find out how much money is left in your
community by those using the airport. Look for taxes by corporations
basing their planes there. Look for business people flying in to do
business with local companies. Look for companies based at the airport.

Your meager tax contribution will very likely pale in comparison...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

> almost hitting traffic
>

So what you're saying is: Nothing happened.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Andrew Gideon]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> So what you're saying is: Nothing happened.

But nothing happened *twice*. What if it happens again? In fact, what if
nothing just keeps on happening over and over and over??

- Andrew

[John T]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
>
> GA airports are part of our transportation system and fill a vital
> role there. Only a fool would deny that.

You have to understand his logic. By that logic, the only roads his tax
money should be spent on are the roads he uses. Forget that those other
roads may be used by trucks to bring his food to town. And his gasoline and
home supplies. Or emergency personnel to his house. Or out-of-town family.
Or businessmen supporting his local economy... The point is his tax money
should be spent only on those services he receives *directly*.

I wonder how he feels about waterway funding...

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > DuPage population is 800,000 people, maybe 400 pilots use it,
> >
>
> Where did you get that 400 pilot figure? Are you saying that one must be a
> pilot to benefit from an airport?

What does the non-pilot get?

>
>
> >
> > Get off my property tax bill you moochers.
> >
>
> Can you post a property tax bill that shows tax revenue supporting the
> airport?

Funny the authority doesn't mention it on their website:
http://www.dupageairport.com/
But they claim to be a:
"Independent, non-elected, business-oriented Airport Board of
Commissioners"

>From http://www.napervillehouses.com/property_taxes.htm:
Taxing Authority 2003 Tax Rate
DuPage County .1999
DuPage County Forest Preserve .1419
DuPage Airport Authority .0230, (over $20 from yours truely)

>
>
> >
> > Gotta love that GOP low tax crowd, except when it benefits them.
> >
>
> Are you saying that only Republicans benefit from airports?

[[email protected]]

Be gone, off my tax bill, Vamanos.

JG

[Dave Stadt]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Thomas Borchert wrote:
>
> > So what you're saying is: Nothing happened.
>
> But nothing happened *twice*. What if it happens again? In fact, what if
> nothing just keeps on happening over and over and over??

Nothing.

> - Andrew
>

[[email protected]]

Name other Commercial Airports that tax
residential property owners?
LAX ORD LGA?

be gone, Vamanos!

[[email protected]]

Vamanos! Flyboys, pay for your own playground.

JG

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > 2 planes from the private strip in So. DuPage, Brookeridge, have
> > wrecked in the 1990's on
> > takeoff, almost hitting traffic and the local fire district (Darien)
> > built a special station just
> > for them. Pay for your own toys, jet-setters
> >
>
> Is the fire station limited to serving only the airport? How many jets are
> based at Brookeridge?

It's one of those subdivisions with the houses and hangars facing a
private
strip, props, no jets.

>
>
> >
> > 30-40 $80,000 salaried FF's are now deployed to serve ALL. Not just the
> > fly-boys.
> >
>
> Were they previously limited to serving only Meigs?

No need for foam trucks in downtown, maybe an engine would respond to a
museum
call, thats about it. Other stations serve the rest of downtown, and I
doubt
airport regulations permit the trucks to leave. And if there was a
wreck
and the trucks were away, many of YOU would complain.

> > Sight-seers can use Gary or Lansing.
> >
>
> Or a variety of other airports. But what if my destination is in downtown
> Chicago?

Then join the common folk at MDW or ORD. Those SWA lineups aren't too
bad.

JG

[[email protected]]

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> >>Or a variety of other airports. But what if my destination is in downtown
> >>Chicago?
> >
> >
> > It's easy: Don't go there. Don't spend another nickel in that crooked
> > cesspool of a city.
> >
> > Mary and I won't, until Daley is either dead or out of office -- whichever
> > comes first.
>
> That's my approach as well. Had a nice vacation there a couple of years
> before they razed Meigs. Never again.
>
> I'd just love to be in a situation some day (say CEO of a large company)
> to be able to deny something of great value to Chicago (say a Fortune
> 100 company HQ or similar). Just a dream though...

Boeing's fleet is based at Gary. These days the CEO's are loving INDIA
and CHINA
so adios flyboys, no jobs, no fenced-off lakefront playground.

JG

[[email protected]]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
> online.com...
> > Thomas Borchert wrote:
> >
> > > So what you're saying is: Nothing happened.
> >
> > But nothing happened *twice*. What if it happens again? In fact, what if
> > nothing just keeps on happening over and over and over??

So by your definition, 9/11 was nothing also, a wreck is a wreck. This
place has had more wrecks on a percentage of operations basis than ORD.

JG

>
> Nothing.
>
> > - Andrew
> >

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > That Bushie rag is losing readers like PlayBoy in a school for the
> > blind. Unless you like
> > the latest missing sweetie-pie coverage.
>
> You talking about the Trib?

You betcha, Colonel Robert McCormick's "never endorsed a DEM
president" Tribune.

JG

>
> Please quote/copy/paste whatever it is you're responding to.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> What does the non-pilot get?
>

I'll answer your question after you answer mine.


>
> Funny the authority doesn't mention it on their website:
> http://www.dupageairport.com/
> But they claim to be a:
> "Independent, non-elected, business-oriented Airport Board of
> Commissioners"
>

Perhaps that's because tax revenues aren't supporting the airport.


>
>From http://www.napervillehouses.com/property_taxes.htm:
> Taxing Authority 2003 Tax Rate
> DuPage County .1999
> DuPage County Forest Preserve .1419
> DuPage Airport Authority .0230, (over $20 from yours truely)
>

But is that $20 supporting the airport?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> It's one of those subdivisions with the houses and hangars facing a
> private strip, props, no jets.
>

In other words, the fire station is there to serve the community.


>
> No need for foam trucks in downtown,
>

Did they have foam trucks?


>
> maybe an engine would respond to a museum call, thats about it.
>

In other words, they did not serve only Meigs.


>
> Other stations serve the rest of downtown, and I doubt
> airport regulations permit the trucks to leave.
>

You just said they could respond to a museum call. That would require them
to leave Meigs.


>
> And if there was a wreck and the trucks were away, many of YOU would
> complain.
>

Not so. Firefighters need to leave the station to respond to calls, pilots
understand that.


>
> Then join the common folk at MDW or ORD. Those SWA lineups aren't too bad.
>

That will require more time and expense. Perhaps I'll simply cease doing
business in Chicago. Are they charging enough for the concert tickets to
compensate for the lost revenue?

By the way, what makes the pilots who use MDW or ORD common folk and those
that used CGX jet-setters?

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > What does the non-pilot get?
> >
>
> I'll answer your question after you answer mine.
>
>
> >
> > Funny the authority doesn't mention it on their website:
> > http://www.dupageairport.com/
> > But they claim to be a:
> > "Independent, non-elected, business-oriented Airport Board of
> > Commissioners"
> >
>
> Perhaps that's because tax revenues aren't supporting the airport.
>
>
> >
> >From http://www.napervillehouses.com/property_taxes.htm:
> > Taxing Authority 2003 Tax Rate
> > DuPage County .1999
> > DuPage County Forest Preserve .1419
> > DuPage Airport Authority .0230, (over $20 from yours truely)
> >
>
> But is that $20 supporting the airport?

Well-well, read 'em and weep:

A top official at DuPage Airport made a cautious prediction Tuesday
that the airport could accomplish by 2009 what DuPage politicians have
been urging for more than a decade--eliminate its need for property-tax
revenues.

"In five years, it is very likely that there would be no tax levy at
all," said Daniel Goodwin, Airport Authority board chairman.

Goodwin made the prediction toward the end of a 40-minute presentation
to the DuPage County Board, during which he ticked off the changes that
he and other allies of County Board Chairman Robert Schillerstrom have
made since they took control of the Airport Authority board in 2003

The authority is a quasi-independent government agency responsible for
operating the busy general-aviation field. But its nine-member board is
appointed by the DuPage County Board chairman, and Schillerstrom is the
latest in a succession of politically ambitious chairmen who have
promised to remove the airport from the property-tax rolls.

Once used mostly by recreational pilots, the West Chicago airfield
launched an ambitious expansion plan in the late 1980s to attract more
corporate jet traffic.

The project resulted in longer runways and first-class facilities, as
well as a temporary spike in property taxes that made the authority a
target for criticism.

"It was almost like they were an independent nation out there, with
**********no accountability**************
to the taxpayers," Schillerstrom said.

That has changed, he said.

"I think they've turned the corner. I'm very proud of what they're
doing," Schillerstrom said. "My goal is to get them off the taxes as
soon as possible." (before we leave IRAQ?, the race is on)

The Airport Authority now collects about $6.5 million annually in real
estate taxes--about 20 percent of its $29.9 million a year budget. None
of the property-tax revenue is used to pay airport operating costs.
Instead, the funds are used to retire debt.

The $12.8 million in long-term debt is scheduled to be paid off in
2007, at which time the property-tax levy could be cut in half, Goodwin
said.

But the airport expects to borrow money to finance the construction of
a hangar addition. Goodwin said he is cautious about promising to
eliminate the need for property-tax funds until the airport is
debt-free and until a proposed high-technology research center on
airport-owned land along Roosevelt Road and Fabyan Parkway begins
generating revenues for the authority.

(SO, don't bet the kids college tuition on it. The TECH PARK
is a JOKE, miles away from the tollway and high office vacancies
already.-JG)

But for the first time, officials say, it appears that operating
revenues from hangar leases, the sale of aviation fuel and other fees
are enough to cover the day-to-day costs of running the airport.

(ALOT of Maybes, and It Appears)

The bottom-line has been helped by nearly $1 million in cost savings
implemented by the board, Goodwin said, including reducing paid
holidays for staff, eliminating the airport's lobbyist and ending
employee junkets.

Also Tuesday, airport officials defended security at the field after
reports that daytime patrols by private security guards were
eliminated.

David Bird, the airport's executive director, said the field is now
patrolled by West Chicago police officers and DuPage sheriff's
deputies. He also noted that more than 30 airport employees in
radio-equipped vehicles typically are on the field during the day.

Bird said the airport is shifting money in its budget to implement
other security measures, including surveillance cameras.

"We think we have actually increased the level of security because we
now have trained officers from law enforcement agencies doing patrol,
instead of unarmed private security firm personnel," he said.

[[email protected]]

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> writes:
>
> > The Park District is a seperate unit funded by property taxes, with the
> > Meigs fence gone, ALL can enjoy their property.
>
> If I understand correctly how they're using the property now, it's of
> no interest to *me*. Whereas the previous use, as an airport, was of
> considerable recreational interest to me. (I'm not a pilot, have
> never flow into Meigs, and in fact have never so much as *ridden* in a
> single-engine fixed-wing aircraft.)
> --

Perhaps the term "Park" District is not clear, i.e. its not an AIRPORT
DIST.
Do they have "Parks" in your town, Dave?

JG

> David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
> RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> So by your definition, 9/11 was nothing also, a wreck is a wreck.
>

Please show me where he defined 9/11 as nothing.


>
> This place has had more wrecks on a percentage of operations basis than
> ORD.
>

Does it? What are the operations counts for ORD and LL22 and how many
wrecks have they had in the same time period?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Well-well, read 'em and weep:
>
> A top official at DuPage Airport made a cautious prediction Tuesday
> that the airport could accomplish by 2009 what DuPage politicians have
> been urging for more than a decade--eliminate its need for property-tax
> revenues.
>
> "In five years, it is very likely that there would be no tax levy at
> all," said Daniel Goodwin, Airport Authority board chairman.
>
> Goodwin made the prediction toward the end of a 40-minute presentation
> to the DuPage County Board, during which he ticked off the changes that
> he and other allies of County Board Chairman Robert Schillerstrom have
> made since they took control of the Airport Authority board in 2003
>
> The authority is a quasi-independent government agency responsible for
> operating the busy general-aviation field. But its nine-member board is
> appointed by the DuPage County Board chairman, and Schillerstrom is the
> latest in a succession of politically ambitious chairmen who have
> promised to remove the airport from the property-tax rolls.
>
> Once used mostly by recreational pilots, the West Chicago airfield
> launched an ambitious expansion plan in the late 1980s to attract more
> corporate jet traffic.
>
> The project resulted in longer runways and first-class facilities, as
> well as a temporary spike in property taxes that made the authority a
> target for criticism.
>
> "It was almost like they were an independent nation out there, with
> **********no accountability**************
> to the taxpayers," Schillerstrom said.
>
> That has changed, he said.
>
> "I think they've turned the corner. I'm very proud of what they're
> doing," Schillerstrom said. "My goal is to get them off the taxes as
> soon as possible." (before we leave IRAQ?, the race is on)
>
> The Airport Authority now collects about $6.5 million annually in real
> estate taxes--about 20 percent of its $29.9 million a year budget. None
> of the property-tax revenue is used to pay airport operating costs.
> Instead, the funds are used to retire debt.
>
> The $12.8 million in long-term debt is scheduled to be paid off in
> 2007, at which time the property-tax levy could be cut in half, Goodwin
> said.
>
> But the airport expects to borrow money to finance the construction of
> a hangar addition. Goodwin said he is cautious about promising to
> eliminate the need for property-tax funds until the airport is
> debt-free and until a proposed high-technology research center on
> airport-owned land along Roosevelt Road and Fabyan Parkway begins
> generating revenues for the authority.
>
> (SO, don't bet the kids college tuition on it. The TECH PARK
> is a JOKE, miles away from the tollway and high office vacancies
> already.-JG)
>
> But for the first time, officials say, it appears that operating
> revenues from hangar leases, the sale of aviation fuel and other fees
> are enough to cover the day-to-day costs of running the airport.
>
> (ALOT of Maybes, and It Appears)
>
> The bottom-line has been helped by nearly $1 million in cost savings
> implemented by the board, Goodwin said, including reducing paid
> holidays for staff, eliminating the airport's lobbyist and ending
> employee junkets.
>
> Also Tuesday, airport officials defended security at the field after
> reports that daytime patrols by private security guards were
> eliminated.
>
> David Bird, the airport's executive director, said the field is now
> patrolled by West Chicago police officers and DuPage sheriff's
> deputies. He also noted that more than 30 airport employees in
> radio-equipped vehicles typically are on the field during the day.
>
> Bird said the airport is shifting money in its budget to implement
> other security measures, including surveillance cameras.
>
> "We think we have actually increased the level of security because we
> now have trained officers from law enforcement agencies doing patrol,
> instead of unarmed private security firm personnel," he said.
>

Are you a product of the Chicago school system?

If you had actually read that piece you may have noticed this sentence:

"None of the property-tax revenue is used to pay airport operating costs."

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > It's one of those subdivisions with the houses and hangars facing a
> > private strip, props, no jets.
> >
>
> In other words, the fire station is there to serve the community.

The main HQ is 3 miles away with a FOUR bay station, plenty close by
modern
standards. This addition was built after one of the wrecks. Anyways,
most
residential areas can get by with VOLUNTEER FF's. The big money
corporate
crowd needs the pros for their edifaces. But thats another fish to fry.

> > No need for foam trucks in downtown,
>
> Did they have foam trucks?

I assume so, H20 not as effective on avgas. Anyways, they were the
special
trucks you see on airport squads.

> > maybe an engine would respond to a museum call, thats about it.
>
> In other words, they did not serve only Meigs.

Don't know, but being on a museum call keeps them in proximity to the
field
able to get back in about the same time it takes to put on the gear,
open
the doors and leave the station.
Anyways, the last fire in the area was McCormick place, in the 1960's.
And no museum has complained about service since Meigs closed.

> >
> > Other stations serve the rest of downtown, and I doubt
> > airport regulations permit the trucks to leave.
> >
>
> You just said they could respond to a museum call. That would require them
> to leave Meigs.

They could as in "there's no wall keeping them from leaving" don't know

about FAA regs.

> >
> > And if there was a wreck and the trucks were away, many of YOU would
> > complain.
> >
>
> Not so. Firefighters need to leave the station to respond to calls, pilots
> understand that.

Except when they wreck and it takes 30 minutes for MDW trucks to
respond.

> >
> > Then join the common folk at MDW or ORD. Those SWA lineups aren't too bad.
> >
>
> That will require more time and expense. Perhaps I'll simply cease doing
> business in Chicago. Are they charging enough for the concert tickets to
> compensate for the lost revenue?

And the dollar volume and type of this "business" is?

Oh well, the construction crains are still swinging across LSD, the
condo
folk can sleep well and the building boom continues, Miss Ya!

>
> By the way, what makes the pilots who use MDW or ORD common folk and those
> that used CGX jet-setters?

The common folk are the non-pilot SWA'ers. If MDW gets too busy then...
maybe Romeoville or.. Peotone will be open. Have you heard or
video-conferencing?

JG

[Andrew Gideon]

wrote:

> Be gone, off my tax bill, Vamanos.

Where are you (plural) going? Whereever, I doubt any of us will be joining
you. But don't let that stop you.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Dave Stadt wrote:

>
> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
> online.com...
>> Thomas Borchert wrote:
>>
>> > So what you're saying is: Nothing happened.
>>
>> But nothing happened *twice*. What if it happens again? In fact, what
>> if nothing just keeps on happening over and over and over??
>
> Nothing.

Just how much nothing will we have to bear before we do nothing about the
nothing? I think we need to get the politicians onto this right away.
They need to be doing nothing as soon as possible.

The world will become a better place as a result.

- Andrew

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > So by your definition, 9/11 was nothing also, a wreck is a wreck.
> >
>
> Please show me where he defined 9/11 as nothing.
>
>
> >
> > This place has had more wrecks on a percentage of operations basis than
> > ORD.
> >
>
> Does it? What are the operations counts for ORD and LL22 and how many
> wrecks have they had in the same time period?

Let's see, ORD does 100K's a year, LL22 maybe 10-20 a day.
During my 15 years in the area, Wrecks:
LL22-Two
ORD- an AMR jet hits the dirt, short of the rr. No injuries, but if you
miss the concrete and raise dirt clouds, thats a wreck in my book.
A decent record, but given Murphy's rule maybe a foam-er is due.

JG

[[email protected]]

>
> Well-well, read 'em and weep:

Just slide that stack of poker chips over now:

>
> "It was almost like they were an independent nation out there, with
> **********no accountability**************
> to the taxpayers," Schillerstrom said.
>
> That has changed, he said.
> The

*********** Airport Authority now collects about $6.5 million annually
in realestate taxes--about 20 percent of its $29.9 million a year
budget. **************

Over $10 from each person, child, senior, invalid, in the county-JG

None
> of the property-tax revenue is used to pay airport operating costs.
> Instead, the funds are used to retire debt.
>
> The $12.8 million in long-term debt is scheduled to be paid off in
> 2007, at which time the property-tax levy could be cut in half, Goodwin
> said.

COULD, like, maybe or if you say pretty please. Here comes a BUT, oh
a hangar for the pretty planes.

>
> But the airport expects to borrow money to finance the construction of
> a hangar addition. Goodwin said he is cautious about promising to
> eliminate the need for property-tax funds until the airport is
> debt-free and until a proposed high-technology research center on
> airport-owned land along Roosevelt Road and Fabyan Parkway begins
> generating revenues for the authority.
>
> (SO, don't bet the kids college tuition on it. The TECH PARK
> is a JOKE, miles away from the tollway and high office vacancies
> already.-JG)
>

But for the first time, officials say, it ****appears*** that operating
revenues from hangar leases, the sale of aviation fuel and other fees
are enough to cover the day-to-day costs of running the airport.

****** Again with the APPEARS ****** do they cover or not?
Anyways, Vamanos!

>
> (ALOT of Maybes, and It Appears)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> The main HQ is 3 miles away with a FOUR bay station, plenty close by
> modern standards.
>

Apparently the people in this community didn't think so.


>
> This addition was built after one of the wrecks.
>

So you concluded it was built to serve the airport?


>
> Anyways, most residential areas can get by with VOLUNTEER FF's.
>

Obviously this one chose not to.


>
> The big money corporate crowd needs the pros for their edifaces. But thats
> another fish to fry.
>

Didn't you say this was a residential air park? How many corporate aircraft
use it?


>
> I assume so, H20 not as effective on avgas. Anyways, they were the
> special trucks you see on airport squads.
>

So you don't know. You seem to have assumed most of what you "know" about
aviation.


>
> They could as in "there's no wall keeping them from leaving" don't know
> about FAA regs.
>

Do you form all your opinions in a state of ignorance?


>
> Except when they wreck and it takes 30 minutes for MDW trucks to
> respond.
>

What do MDW trucks have to do with CGX?


>
> Oh well, the construction crains are still swinging across LSD, the
> condo folk can sleep well and the building boom continues, Miss Ya!
>

What kept the condo folks awake previously?


>
> The common folk are the non-pilot SWA'ers.
>

I agree. Pilots are uncommon folks.


>
> If MDW gets too busy then...
> maybe Romeoville or.. Peotone will be open.
>

Perhaps Daley should have thought of that before he closed a perfectly good
airport.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Let's see, ORD does 100K's a year, LL22 maybe 10-20 a day.
> During my 15 years in the area, Wrecks:
> LL22-Two
> ORD- an AMR jet hits the dirt, short of the rr.
>

Actual figures, please, and cite your source so they can be verified.


>
> No injuries, but if you
> miss the concrete and raise dirt clouds, thats a wreck in my book.
>

Well need something better than your uninformed opinion. There may have
been no actual "wrecks" at all. A search of the NTSB database back to
1/1/90 produced no hits.

[Morgans]

Andrew

Your post appeared the right font size, for the first time in a while. Did
you change something, or did I?
--
Jim in NC

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >
> > > So by your definition, 9/11 was nothing also, a wreck is a wreck.
> > >
> >
> > Please show me where he defined 9/11 as nothing.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > This place has had more wrecks on a percentage of operations basis
than
> > > ORD.
> > >
> >
> > Does it? What are the operations counts for ORD and LL22 and how many
> > wrecks have they had in the same time period?
>
> Let's see, ORD does 100K's a year, LL22 maybe 10-20 a day.
> During my 15 years in the area, Wrecks:
> LL22-Two
> ORD- an AMR jet hits the dirt, short of the rr. No injuries, but if you
> miss the concrete and raise dirt clouds, thats a wreck in my book.
> A decent record, but given Murphy's rule maybe a foam-er is due.
>
> JG

I seem to remember a huge cloud of smoke upon leaving work one day back in
the '80s. Hundreds died. Based on your twisted thought process I guess you
should be lobbying to have O'Hare closed.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >
> > > So by your definition, 9/11 was nothing also, a wreck is a wreck.
> > >
> >
> > Please show me where he defined 9/11 as nothing.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > This place has had more wrecks on a percentage of operations basis than
> > > ORD.
> > >
> >
> > Does it? What are the operations counts for ORD and LL22 and how many
> > wrecks have they had in the same time period?
>
> Let's see, ORD does 100K's a year, LL22 maybe 10-20 a day.
> During my 15 years in the area, Wrecks:
> LL22-Two
> ORD- an AMR jet hits the dirt, short of the rr. No injuries, but if you
> miss the concrete and raise dirt clouds, thats a wreck in my book.
> A decent record, but given Murphy's rule maybe a foam-er is due.
>
> JG

So, what? How many people were killed/injured? Property damage? If the
answer is "none," then it is none of your damned business!

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>> writes:
>>
>> > The Park District is a seperate unit funded by property taxes, with the
>> > Meigs fence gone, ALL can enjoy their property.
>>
>> If I understand correctly how they're using the property now, it's of
>> no interest to *me*. Whereas the previous use, as an airport, was of
>> considerable recreational interest to me. (I'm not a pilot, have
>> never flow into Meigs, and in fact have never so much as *ridden* in a
>> single-engine fixed-wing aircraft.)

> Perhaps the term "Park" District is not clear, i.e. its not an
> AIRPORT DIST. Do they have "Parks" in your town, Dave?

Yes, and I know how much I use them and how much enjoyment I get out
of them. Especially parks that seem to be oriented around a big
bandshell; I really don't find that very interesting.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Name other Commercial Airports that tax
> residential property owners?
> LAX ORD LGA?
>
> be gone, Vamanos!


It is almost universally the other way around. The only reason that
Meigs was a "cash drain" is that the city of Chicago strangled it befort
they moved in the middle of the night and murdered it.

They used to have a thriving hangar/FBO setup there.

Just why couldn't the vaunted rock concerts have been held at any other
of Chicago's many parks? It isn't as if the city were hurting for parks
before they destroyed Meigs.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article om>,
wrote:

> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > > 2 planes from the private strip in So. DuPage, Brookeridge, have
> > > wrecked in the 1990's on
> > > takeoff, almost hitting traffic and the local fire district (Darien)
> > > built a special station just
> > > for them. Pay for your own toys, jet-setters
> > >
> >
> > Is the fire station limited to serving only the airport? How many jets are
> > based at Brookeridge?
>
> It's one of those subdivisions with the houses and hangars facing a
> private
> strip, props, no jets.
>

FAA has no regs that mandate any firefighting at GA airports -- that is
a matter of community option. If a community decides to put a fire
station at he airport, it is there to serve the whole community, not
just the airport.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Thomas Borchert]

> Vamanos! Flyboys, pay for your own playground.
>

That's ALL? That's all you have left after being challenged just a
LITTLE bit? Jeeze, what a poor performance.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Happy Dog]

> wrote in message news:
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> > With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys a
>> > park property previously restricted to jet-setters.
>> >
>>
>> Are concert-goers required to produce a tax receipt for entry?
>
> My DuPage County tax bill has included the DUPAGE airport for decades,
> no benefit to me or 99.999% of the population

And are you a common taxpayer or a jetsetter? It's funny how the people who
pay the least taxes whine the most loudly and consume the lions' share of
the sizable social services budget. You wouldn't happen to be one of them,
would you?

m

[Happy Dog]

> wrote in message
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >
>> > DuPage population is 800,000 people, maybe 400 pilots use it,
>> >
>>
>> Where did you get that 400 pilot figure? Are you saying that one must be
>> a
>> pilot to benefit from an airport?
>
> What does the non-pilot get?

Idiot.

moo

[Happy Dog]

"John T" > wrote in message news:
> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
>>
>> GA airports are part of our transportation system and fill a vital
>> role there. Only a fool would deny that.
>
> You have to understand his logic. By that logic, the only roads his tax
> money should be spent on are the roads he uses.

Exactly! The liberal agenda is to see the government as supporters of
things you want to do, of course. But, *most* importantly, it's to prevent
or punish things you don't want your neighbours to do.

moo

[Gary Drescher]

"Happy Dog" > wrote in message
.. .
> Exactly! The liberal agenda is to see the government as supporters of
> things you want to do, of course. But, *most* importantly, it's to
> prevent or punish things you don't want your neighbours to do.

Uh, right. That's why it's liberals who've supported laws to prevent or
punish various forms of private consensual sex, for example, while
right-wingers have opposed such restrictions. (Not.)

--Gary

[Andrew Gideon]

Morgans wrote:

> Your post appeared the right font size, for the first time in a while.
> Did you change something, or did I?

"Font size"? I don't do anything WRT font size in my postings as they're
not in any language capable of such markup.

- Andrew

[Happy Dog]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
> "Happy Dog" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Exactly! The liberal agenda is to see the government as supporters of
>> things you want to do, of course. But, *most* importantly, it's to
>> prevent or punish things you don't want your neighbours to do.
>
> Uh, right. That's why it's liberals who've supported laws to prevent or
> punish various forms of private consensual sex, for example, while
> right-wingers have opposed such restrictions. (Not.)

Correct. Love them for that.

moo

[Montblack]

("Happy Dog" wrote)
>
> Idiot.


:-)


Montblack

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
>
> Uh, right. That's why it's liberals who've supported laws to prevent or
> punish various forms of private consensual sex, for example, while
> right-wingers have opposed such restrictions. (Not.)
>

And let's not forget it was the liberals who supported property rights and
medical marijuana while the right-wingers opposed them. (Also Not.)

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > Or a variety of other airports. But what if my destination is in downtown
> > Chicago?
>
> It's easy: Don't go there. Don't spend another nickel in that crooked
> cesspool of a city.
>
> Mary and I won't, until Daley is either dead or out of office -- whichever
> comes first.

Last I checked, being dead did not prevent one from participating in
Chicago politics.

-cwk.

[[email protected]]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
> > Name other Commercial Airports that tax
> > residential property owners?
> > LAX ORD LGA?
> >
> > be gone, Vamanos!

I was refering to the RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY TAXES COLLECTED BY THE
MOOCHERS
OF DUPAGE COUNTY AIRPORT.

JG

[[email protected]]

Here's some homework, search the Chicago Tribune Archives back to at
least 1989
for a plane (AMR) landing short due to instrument issues, witnessed by
a UAL waiting
for takeoff at ORD.

And a prop crashing into Lemont Rd. (LL22), come back then.

And still waiting for detailed benefits of GA airports supported by
property tax dollars,
for non-pilots.

JG

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wet the bed and whined:

> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Name other Commercial Airports that tax
> > > residential property owners?
> > > LAX ORD LGA?
> > >
> > > be gone, Vamanos!
>
> I was refering to the RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY TAXES COLLECTED BY THE
> MOOCHERS
> OF DUPAGE COUNTY AIRPORT.

Does that bill separate out the taxes paid by the users of the airport?
In a lot of states, the local government collects taxes on aircraft and
hangars and puts the money into the General Fund. If some money is
coming out of the General Fund and going to the airport, it is just a
matter of bookkeeping.

Do you whine when some of your tax money goes toward roads or parks? How
about schools, when you don't have any children?

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[[email protected]]

Well-well:

CHI95FA161
HISTORY OF FLIGHT

On May 29, 1995, at 2004 central daylight time, a Beech A35, N8480A,
registered to GRS Company of Downers Grove, Illinois, impacted terrain
and trees off the departure end of runway 27, at Brookeridge Air Park
in Downers Grove, Illinois. The airplane was destroyed by impact and
post crash fire. The pilot and one passenger sustained serious
injuries. The personal 14 CFR Part 91 flight was operating in visual
meteorological conditions. No flight plan was on file. The local flight
was originating at the time of the accident.

The pilot stated that the airplane had been flown by a partner on a
flight to and from the Saint Louis, Missouri, area in the week prior to
the accident. When the airplane was in Saint Louis, it was fueled to
the top of both main tanks and the auxiliary tank with 100 LL aviation
fuel. The airplane was parked outside overnight while in Saint Louis.

When the airplane was returned to Brookeridge Air Park it was placed in
the pilot's hangar where it remained until the day of the accident. The
pilot stated that he pre-flighted the airplane in the morning of the
accident and found nothing unusual during the inspection. He said that
he drained the sumps and found no water or foreign matter in the fuel.
He did note that there was 100 LL in the main tanks.

He and a passenger conducted one local flight, which he described to be
less than one hour. At the end of this flight he landed and taxied to
the fuel pump where he serviced the two main tanks to the top with 80
octane aviation fuel. He stated that he did not drain the sumps after
the tanks were filled.

Again with one passenger, he prepared for another local flight. He said
he taxied N8480A to the east end of runway 27, did a normal run-up and
went through the checklist. He said that the fuel valve was selected to
the left tank. He said that the reason he knew this was from a visual
inspection and the fact that it was customary to start on the left tank
since all fuel bypassed by the carburetor was returned to the left
tank. He said that at no time during the day did he select the
auxiliary tank. He said that he was of the opinion that it was empty
and had no intention to use it.

He said that takeoff was normal, the airplane accelerated normally, and
a positive rate of climb was noted. At that time he selected the
landing gear to be retracted and started the flaps up. He said that at
about 75 to 100 feet above the ground the engine sustained a total
power loss. He said that he lowered the nose and changed the fuel to
the right tank and started pumping the manual fuel pump (wobble pump).
When this did not restore engine power, he took his left hand off the
wobble pump and held the yoke, while he moved the magneto switch with
his right hand. He then said that he realized that continued flight was
not possible and directed his attention to getting the airplane back on
the ground since there were trees ahead. He said he left the throttle
full open. He indicated that he had to force the airplane to the
ground, but due to the excess speed was able to use rudder control to
steer the airplane between two trees and avoid a residence.

He said that after the airplane came to rest there was a large fire
surrounding the airplane. He and his passenger exited the airplane
quickly, but both suffered serious thermal injuries.

The pilot stated that he did not know what caused the loss of power.

A witness to the accident furnished a written statement including
information similar to that of the pilot. He said that when he
approached the pilot just after the accident, the pilot told him that
he had switched the fuel tanks to get a restart, but there was no time.
This witness stated that once the airplane suffered a power loss, he
never heard it regain power.

OTHER DAMAGE

Trees were damaged during the impact and post accident fire.

PERSONAL INFORMATION

The pilot, born July 16, 1955, was the holder of a commercial
certificate and a flight instructor's certificate. He had ratings for
single and multi-engine land airplanes and an instrument rating for
airplanes. He was the holder of a second class medical issued October
27, 1994. His most recent biennial flight review was in the accident
airplane on November 11, 1994. His total flight experience was 1,087
hours with 47 hours in this make and model of airplane.

AIRCRAFT INFORMATION

The airplane was a Beech A35, serial number D-1900, N8480A. The
airplane had a total time in service of 4,878 hours at the time of the
accident. The most recent annual was conducted on April 20, 1995, and
had accumulated 19 hours since that inspection.

WRECKAGE AND IMPACT INFORMATION

The first indication of ground scars were horizontal cuts in the
taxiway/overrun of runway 27. The slashes were consistent with size and
location of the propeller blades. There were eleven parallel strikes.
The distance between the first two was 35.5 inches. From the beginning
of the marks to the main wreckage was a distance of 365 feet.

All components of the accident airplane were found in the debris trail.
The general heading of the ground scars followed the original departure
path and impacted trees at the departure end of the taxiway. The
fuselage remained upright and cabin door allowed egress for the
occupants.

The landing gear and flaps were retracted. No pre-existing mechanical
anomalies were found in the wreckage during the post accident
examination.

Both the right and left wing were broken away from the fuselage in the
vicinity of the fuel tanks allowing the fuel to spill out.

No fuel remained in either tank for examination. The fuel valve was on
the right tank selection.

FIRE

There was a post impact fire, which ignited during the impact and
destroyed much of the left wing and substantially damaged the fuselage.
The airplane had been fueled to the top of the main tanks just prior to
the accident.

[[email protected]]

> > >
> > > >
> > > > This place has had more wrecks on a percentage of operations basis than
> > > > ORD.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Does it? What are the operations counts for ORD and LL22 and how many
> > > wrecks have they had in the same time period?
> >
> > Let's see, ORD does 100K's a year, LL22 maybe 10-20 a day.
> > During my 15 years in the area, Wrecks:
> > LL22-Two
> > ORD- an AMR jet hits the dirt, short of the rr. No injuries, but if you
> > miss the concrete and raise dirt clouds, thats a wreck in my book.
> > A decent record, but given Murphy's rule maybe a foam-er is due.
> >
> > JG
>
> So, what? How many people were killed/injured? Property damage? If the
> answer is "none," then it is none of your damned business!

Well Orville Wright what do you call this?

Chicago Tribune
September 8, 2001
Author: John Chase, Tribune staff reporter.

A single-engine airplane cut electric and telephone wires Friday but
narrowly missed several homes as it skidded into a bank of trees across
the street from a firehouse near Darien.

The four people inside the six-seat Piper Saratoga escaped serious
injury even though the airplane split into several pieces before coming
to rest on forest preserve property. The plane's cabin remained intact.

"God was on their side," said Denis Vale, an off-duty Chicago police
officer who was among the first witnesses on the scene and helped yank
a passenger out of the plane seconds after it went down. "When I saw
that plane crash, I thought for sure everyone inside was dead."

Officials with the Federal Aviation Administration are investigating
the crash. The pilot, William Helwig Jr., 62, of Downers Grove, said he
had problems immediately after leaving the small airstrip that cuts
through the private Brookeridge subdivision near Darien.

"Upon takeoff, he began having engine difficulty and he tried to circle
back and land it, but he couldn't make it," said Robert Tinucci, chief
administrator with the Darien-Woodridge Fire Protection District. "We
were happy he was able to avoid any structures."

The plane went down just before noon and crashed across the street from
Darien-Woodridge's Fire Station No. 3 at 87th Street and Lemont Road.
Firefighters ran across the street and began tending to the victims,
officials said, and were quickly aided by personnel from other
firehouses and fire departments.

Helwig, an owner of the plane, was in fair condition at Good Samaritan
Hospital in Downers Grove, while his wife Charlene, 59, was treated and
released from Hinsdale Hospital. Stephen Stack, 67, of Chicago was
treated at Hinsdale Hospital and released, while his wife Lois, 53,
remained in fair condition at Good Samaritan with back pain.

Gary Weis, who lives next to the firehouse, was picking tomatoes in his
back yard when he looked over his shoulder and saw the airplane bearing
down his house.

The plane then banked left, Weis said, and avoided hitting his home by
just a few feet. A pine tree in Weis' front yard was cut in half by the
plane, bringing down phone and electric wires, which set some of his
bushes on fire.

"I think the pilot tried to avoid my house, thankfully," Weis said.

Fire officials immediately sprayed foam on the gasoline that leaked out
of the aircraft and put out the brush fires.

"They landed in a pocket between the trees and the homes and they were
lucky," Vale said.

[[email protected]]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wet the bed and whined:
>
> > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > In article . com>,
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Name other Commercial Airports that tax
> > > > residential property owners?
> > > > LAX ORD LGA?
> > > >
> > > > be gone, Vamanos!
> >
> > I was refering to the RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY TAXES COLLECTED BY THE
> > MOOCHERS
> > OF DUPAGE COUNTY AIRPORT.
>
> Does that bill separate out the taxes paid by the users of the airport?
> In a lot of states, the local government collects taxes on aircraft and
> hangars and puts the money into the General Fund. If some money is
> coming out of the General Fund and going to the airport, it is just a
> matter of bookkeeping.

The breakdown is such:
>From http://www.napervillehouses.co=ADm/property_taxes.htm


Taxing Authority 2003 Tax Rate
DuPage County .1999
DuPage County Forest Preserve .1419
DuPage Airport Authority .0230, (over $20 from yours
truely)
>
> Do you whine when some of your tax money goes toward roads or parks? How
> about schools, when you don't have any children?

This is an airport group, besides I consider the value of road taxes to
be reasonable, and not restricted to benefit less than ONE PERCENT of
the population, ditto for schools.=20

JG

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Let's see, ORD does 100K's a year, LL22 maybe 10-20 a day.
> > During my 15 years in the area, Wrecks:
> > LL22-Two
> > ORD- an AMR jet hits the dirt, short of the rr.

The full report for NTSB Report Number AAB-01-01 is available at
www.ntsb.gov/publictn/publictn.htm. On February 9, 1998, about 0954
central standard time (CST), a Boeing 727-223 (727), N845AA, operated
by American Airlines as flight 1340, impacted the ground short of the
runway 14R threshold at Chicago O'Hare International Airport (ORD)
while conducting a Category II (CAT II) instrument landing system (ILS)
coupled approach. Twenty-two passengers and one flight attendant
received minor injuries, and the airplane was substantially damaged.
The airplane, being operated by American Airlines as a scheduled
domestic passenger flight under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal
Regulations (CFR) Part 121, with 116 passengers, 3 flight crewmembers,
and 3 flight attendants on board, was destined for Chicago, Illinois,
from Kansas City International Airport (MCI), Kansas City, Missouri.
Daylight instrument meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of
the accident.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable
cause(s) of this accident as follows:

the failure of the flight crew to maintain a proper pitch attitude for
a successful landing or go-around. Contributing to the accident were
the divergent pitch oscillations of the airplane, which occurred during
the final approach and were the result of an improper autopilot
desensitization rate.

I call this a WRECK-JG

So the score is LL22-Two, ORD-One.

[Icebound]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>> So, what? How many people were killed/injured? Property damage? If the
>> answer is "none," then it is none of your damned business!
>
> Well Orville Wright what do you call this?
>
> Chicago Tribune
> September 8, 2001
> Author: John Chase, Tribune staff reporter.
>
> A single-engine airplane cut electric and telephone wires Friday but
> narrowly missed several homes as it skidded into a bank of trees across
> the street from a firehouse near Darien.

Exactly.

Our community looked at the statistics and decided that we or our children
could be injured by vehicles. There were a couple of deaths over the 20
years that we have been here, and quite a few close calls. And every day
there is a kid being hit somewhere in the city.

So we are closing all the roads and banning cars from our subdivision. (And
there were a *lot* of them in our area... way more than the number of
airplanes at Meigs or even any of those other places).

Most of us are old and retired, so we don't have anywhere to go much anyway.
For those that do, they can walk across the park and catch a bus on the
other side.

A couple of guys owned really nice cars and were quite P.O.'ed about it, but
eventually they just had to leave them somewhere on the other side of the
park and walk like the rest of us.

A few people couldn't take the inconvenience and moved out, but good
riddance to them. They were quite well to do, too, and some said that their
leaving had an "economic impact", whatever that means. And their houses
took a long time to sell... One is still empty... getting kind of
dillapidated, too. We'll probably just tear it down and plant grass on the
lot.

We have a modern big-city hospital in our area, but the ambulances can't get
there directly from the suburbs anymore. When they do, they have to drop
the patients off on the outide of our subdivision, and wheel them into the
hospital on guerneys. It may take a little longer, but really, how many
emergency patients can you possibly get each day. But our children don't
have to worry about the traffic.

And it is really *beautiful* here now. We ripped up the pavement and put it
flower gardens and pools, planted extra tees. And set up some bleachers on
the larger boulevards for concerts and the like. Really pretty.

Strangely, though, I notice that some of our friends and family don't visit
much anymore. And the local businesses don't seem to be doing quite as well
as they once did. The one gas station closed, and the manager has been
having a problem finding another job... I think he's on welfare now.... But
it really only affected maybe 20 or 30 people, this drop in
business...doesn't really affect the community as a whole.

Our latest beef is that we know part of our taxes go toward the upkeep of
roads in other parts of town, but we are going to start working on getting
that corrected, right away.

Cheers. More people should buy homes here. You'll be amazed how safe it is
here now once the cars are gone.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wet the bed and whined some more:

> e was dead."
>
> Officials with the Federal Aviation Administration are investigating
> the crash. The pilot, William Helwig Jr., 62, of Downers Grove, said he
> had problems immediately after leaving the small airstrip that cuts
> through the private Brookeridge subdivision near Darien.
>
> "Upon takeoff, he began having engine difficulty and he tried to circle
> back and land it, but he couldn't make it," said Robert Tinucci, chief
> administrator with the Darien-Woodridge Fire Protection District. "We
> were happy he was able to avoid any structures."
>
> The plane went down just before noon and crashed across the street from
> Darien-Woodridge's Fire Station No. 3 at 87th Street and Lemont Road.
> Firefighters ran across the street and began tending to the victims,
> officials said, and were quickly aided by personnel from other
> firehouses and fire departments.
>
> Helwig, an owner of the plane, was in fair condition at Good Samaritan
> Hospital in Downers Grove, while his wife Charlene, 59, was treated and
> released from Hinsdale Hospital. Stephen Stack, 67, of Chicago was
> treated at Hinsdale Hospital and released, while his wife Lois, 53,
> remained in fair condition at Good Samaritan with back pain.
>
> Gary Weis, who lives next to the firehouse, was picking tomatoes in his
> back yard when he looked over his shoulder and saw the airplane bearing
> down his house.
>
> The plane then banked left, Weis said, and avoided hitti


Do you whine the same way when a truck hits a power pole and blacks out
the neighborhood, or do you just have a hardon for aviators?

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > wet the bed and whined:
> >
> > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > In article . com>,
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Name other Commercial Airports that tax
> > > > > residential property owners?
> > > > > LAX ORD LGA?
> > > > >
> > > > > be gone, Vamanos!
> > >
> > > I was refering to the RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY TAXES COLLECTED BY THE
> > > MOOCHERS
> > > OF DUPAGE COUNTY AIRPORT.
> >
> > Does that bill separate out the taxes paid by the users of the airport?
> > In a lot of states, the local government collects taxes on aircraft and
> > hangars and puts the money into the General Fund. If some money is
> > coming out of the General Fund and going to the airport, it is just a
> > matter of bookkeeping.
>
> The breakdown is such:
> >From http://www.napervillehouses.co*m/property taxes.htm
>
>
> Taxing Authority 2003 Tax Rate
> DuPage County .1999
> DuPage County Forest Preserve .1419
> DuPage Airport Authority .0230, (over $20 from yours
> truely)
> >
> > Do you whine when some of your tax money goes toward roads or parks? How
> > about schools, when you don't have any children?
>
> This is an airport group, besides I consider the value of road taxes to
> be reasonable, and not restricted to benefit less than ONE PERCENT of
> the population, ditto for schools.

We pay for wilderness areas that are accessible only to elitist
backpackers and nobody pays any attention; we pay for tennis courts at
parks -- how many people play tennis or backpack?

The argument is specious.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> This is an airport group, besides I consider the value of road taxes to
> be reasonable, and not restricted to benefit less than ONE PERCENT of
> the population, ditto for schools.
>

Airports benefit everyone.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Here's some homework, search the Chicago Tribune Archives back to at
> least 1989
> for a plane (AMR) landing short due to instrument issues, witnessed by
> a UAL waiting
> for takeoff at ORD.
>
> And a prop crashing into Lemont Rd. (LL22), come back then.
>
> And still waiting for detailed benefits of GA airports supported by
> property tax dollars,
> for non-pilots.
>

As the student, it is not your position to assign homework.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> So the score is LL22-Two, ORD-One.
>

Are you saying there has been only one aircraft accident at ORD since
1/1/90?

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > So the score is LL22-Two, ORD-One.
> >
>
> Are you saying there has been only one aircraft accident at ORD since
> 1/1/90?

Involving airborne aircraft with severe damage and passenger injuries,
yes, and still waiting for detailed benefits from GA, so far NONE.

JG

[[email protected]]

We upgraded to underground lines, cha-cha. Be Gone FLYBOY MOOCHERS, off
my
property tax bill.

JG

[[email protected]]

>
> Exactly.
>
> Our community looked at the statistics and decided that we or our children
> could be injured by vehicles. There were a couple of deaths over the 20
> years that we have been here, and quite a few close calls. And every day
> there is a kid being hit somewhere in the city.

Well, your neighbors were bad parents, and the cars didn't drop from
the
sky, and the drivers didn't screw up determining head winds and plane
balance.

"...Just after take off I flew over [a resident's] house to the South
East and he observed the windsock, which is 100 yards from his kitchen,
to be out of the Northeast. This was a 180 degree wind shift from what
I had observed prior to takeoff."

(sure, this happens all the time Orville, winds just rotate like a
blooming
tornado--JG)

According to a police report, "...[The witness] stated that he was in
his back yard working in his garden when he heard a 'very very low
plane'. [The witness] said that he heard the plane's engine and it
appeared to be working normally. [The witness] viewed the plane
overhead banking hard to the left. The plane then hit a large pine tree
in his front yard, it continued into the power lines. [The witness]
heard a large boom when he plane crashed into the ground across the
street..."

During a postaccident interview with the National Transportation Safety
Board and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the pilot stated
that the maximum altitude he attained during climbout was approximately
80 feet agl and his use of 10 degrees of flaps was described as
something that he began on his own. He did not weigh the baggage that
was on the airplane and he did not perform performance calculations for
the accident flight. He added that he used 35 inches of manifold
pressure so as not to overboost the engine.

Pilot logbook entries indicate the pilot's last biennial flight review
was on April 11, 1999. FAR 61.56(c) states, "Except as provided in
paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no person may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th
calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in
command, that person has - (1) Accomplished a flight review given in an
aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor; and
(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized flight instructor who gave
the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the
review.

The pilot received his last instrument proficiency check (IPC) was on
May 8, 2000. FAR 61.57(c) states, "Instrument experience. Except as
provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot
in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that
person has: (1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in
an aircraft (other than a glider), performed and logged under actual or
simulated instrument conditions, either in flight in the appropriate
category of aircraft for the instrument privileges sought or in a
flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of
the aircraft category for the instrument privileges sought - (i) At
least six instrument approaches; (ii) Holding procedures; and (iii)
Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation
systems." There were no logbook entries regarding instrument
approaches, holding procedures or intercepting and tracking courses
through the use of navigation systems.

[[email protected]]

> When the airplane was returned to Brookeridge Air Park it was placed in
> the pilot's hangar where it remained until the day of the accident. The
> pilot stated that he pre-flighted the airplane in the morning of the
> accident and found nothing unusual during the inspection. He said that
> he drained the sumps and found no water or foreign matter in the fuel.
> He did note that there was 100 LL in the main tanks.
>
> He and a passenger conducted one local flight, which he described to be
> less than one hour. At the end of this flight he landed and taxied to
> the fuel pump where he serviced the two main tanks to the top with 80
> octane aviation fuel. He stated that he did not drain the sumps after
> the tanks were filled.
>
> Again with one passenger, he prepared for another local flight. He said
> he taxied N8480A to the east end of runway 27, did a normal run-up and
> went through the checklist. He said that the fuel valve was selected to
> the left tank. He said that the reason he knew this was from a visual
> inspection and the fact that it was customary to start on the left tank
> since all fuel bypassed by the carburetor was returned to the left
> tank. He said that at no time during the day did he select the
> auxiliary tank. He said that he was of the opinion that it was empty
> and had no intention to use it.
>
> He said that takeoff was normal, the airplane accelerated normally, and
> a positive rate of climb was noted. At that time he selected the
> landing gear to be retracted and started the flaps up. He said that at
> about 75 to 100 feet above the ground the engine sustained a total
> power loss. He said that he lowered the nose and changed the fuel to
> the right tank and started pumping the manual fuel pump (wobble pump).
> When this did not restore engine power, he took his left hand off the
> wobble pump and held the yoke, while he moved the magneto switch with
> his right hand. He then said that he realized that continued flight was
> not possible and directed his attention to getting the airplane back on
> the ground since there were trees ahead. He said he left the throttle
> full open. He indicated that he had to force the airplane to the
> ground, but due to the excess speed was able to use rudder control to
> steer the airplane between two trees and avoid a residence.
>
> He said that after the airplane came to rest there was a large fire
> surrounding the airplane. He and his passenger exited the airplane
> quickly, but both suffered serious thermal injuries.
>
> The pilot stated that he did not know what caused the loss of power.
>>
> Trees were damaged during the impact and post accident fire.
>
> PERSONAL INFORMATION
>
> The pilot, born July 16, 1955, was the holder of a commercial
> certificate and a flight instructor's certificate. He had ratings for
> single and multi-engine land airplanes and an instrument rating for
> airplanes. He was the holder of a second class medical issued October
> 27, 1994. His most recent biennial flight review was in the accident
> airplane on November 11, 1994. His total flight experience was 1,087
> hours with 47 hours in this make and model of airplane.

Chuck Yeager Junior was an INSTRUCTOR, and fubared the fuel system,
Yi Carumba!

JG

[Icebound]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> Our community looked at the statistics and decided that we or our
>> children
>> could be injured by vehicles. There were a couple of deaths over the 20
>> years that we have been here, and quite a few close calls. And every day
>> there is a kid being hit somewhere in the city.
>
> Well, your neighbors were bad parents, and the cars didn't drop from
> the
> sky, and the drivers didn't screw up determining head winds and plane
> balance.
>


Oh, some of the trouble was the outsiders, not neighbours. They would speed
through the area. Once, a drunk would hit a lamp-post or tree. They would
blare their stereos too loud. Make those loud popping noises with souped-up
exhausts, or whatever.

We just had to close down cars.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> We upgraded to underground lines, cha-cha. Be Gone FLYBOY MOOCHERS, off
> my property tax bill.
>

Your property taxes aren't supporting the airport.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . net>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > We upgraded to underground lines, cha-cha. Be Gone FLYBOY MOOCHERS, off
> > my property tax bill.
> >
>
> Your property taxes aren't supporting the airport.

Years ago, in California, the California Pilots Assn. got the Division
of Aeronautics to conduct surveys to determine the economic value of the
state's GA airports.

The numbers were astounding! If we took the total and divided it by the
number of based airplanes, it came out to around $110K/based airplane --
and that was 25 years ago!

The politicians didn't like that, so they suppressed this program.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Paul kgyy]

Jets DID land at Meigs. United even flew an empty B727 in there when
they donated it to the Museum of Science and Industry.

None of the airplanes flying into Meigs made as much noise as
1. The average cigarette boat running up the lake shore
2. The rock bands that routinely play in the park
3. The motorcycle groups that routinely roar up Lake Shore Drive at
any hour of the night. Somebody got caught doing 165mph a couple of
years ago.

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > We upgraded to underground lines, cha-cha. Be Gone FLYBOY MOOCHERS, off
> > my property tax bill.
> >
>
> Your property taxes aren't supporting the airport.

Then where has the $300 over 15 years on my residential property tax
bill
gone?

JG

[[email protected]]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article . net>,
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
>
> > > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >
> > > We upgraded to underground lines, cha-cha. Be Gone FLYBOY MOOCHERS, off
> > > my property tax bill.
> > >
> >
> > Your property taxes aren't supporting the airport.

Then where has all the money gone over 15 years? 300 DOLLARS

> The politicians didn't like that, so they suppressed this program.

What is suppressed, plenty of GA airports in CA and plenty of WRECKS
compare Fullerton to LAX.

JG

>
> --
> Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Then where has the $300 over 15 years on my residential property tax
> bill gone?
>

I don't know. Graft? I'm going by the information you posted, which
indicated your property taxes aren't supporting the airport. Did you post
bad information?

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > In article . net>,
> > "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
> >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > ups.com...
> > > >
> > > > We upgraded to underground lines, cha-cha. Be Gone FLYBOY MOOCHERS,
off
> > > > my property tax bill.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Your property taxes aren't supporting the airport.
>
> Then where has all the money gone over 15 years? 300 DOLLARS

Seeing as it is Dupage County I would suspect your money has been diverted
to some politicians pet pork project.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wet the bed (again) and wrote:

> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > In article . net>,
> > "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
> >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > ups.com...
> > > >
> > > > We upgraded to underground lines, cha-cha. Be Gone FLYBOY MOOCHERS, off
> > > > my property tax bill.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Your property taxes aren't supporting the airport.
>
> Then where has all the money gone over 15 years? 300 DOLLARS
>
> > The politicians didn't like that, so they suppressed this program.
>
> What is suppressed, plenty of GA airports in CA and plenty of WRECKS
> compare Fullerton to LAX.


I see that "jgrove" omitted the fact that CA airports study showed
$110K/year economic benefit to airport areas per based aircraft (old
data, so we should assume more). He doesn't mention the amount of his
taxes going toward supporting street bums (sorry -- "homeless") or
bicycle lanes or other "feel good" tax-supported programs.

IMHO, he is just a jealous whiner who has nothing to offer but criticism.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[[email protected]]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wet the bed (again) and wrote:
>
> > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > In article . net>,
> > > "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > wrote in message
> > > > ups.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > We upgraded to underground lines, cha-cha. Be Gone FLYBOY MOOCHERS, off
> > > > > my property tax bill.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your property taxes aren't supporting the airport.
> >
> > Then where has all the money gone over 15 years? 300 DOLLARS
> >
> > > The politicians didn't like that, so they suppressed this program.
> >
> > What is suppressed, plenty of GA airports in CA and plenty of WRECKS
> > compare Fullerton to LAX.
>
>
> I see that "jgrove" omitted the fact that CA airports study showed
> $110K/year economic benefit to airport areas per based aircraft (old
> data, so we should assume more). He doesn't mention the amount of his
> taxes going toward supporting street bums (sorry -- "homeless") or
> bicycle lanes or other "feel good" tax-supported programs.

Geez, GA is just like SANTA CLAUS,leave out some milk and cookies and
santa will
fly you all kinds of presents. Another "suppressed" study, PLONK.

JG

>
> IMHO, he is just a jealous whiner who has nothing to offer but criticism.
>
> --
> Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Judah]

"Paul kgyy" > wrote in news:1120837330.848150.80710
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

<snip>

> 3. The motorcycle groups that routinely roar up Lake Shore Drive at
> any hour of the night. Somebody got caught doing 165mph a couple of
> years ago.

And no matter how hard he pulled on the handlebars, he could never get more
than one wheel off the ground!

[[email protected]]

Judah wrote:
> wrote in news:1120327643.302827.150340
> @g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > With the opening of the Concert Stage, the common taxpayer now enjoys
> > a park property previously restricted to jet-setters.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Are you kidding?
>
> 1. Have you seen those ticket prices? You could have learned to fly for
> less!

Free listening on a blanket in the park.

> 2. Jets didn't land at Meigs. The folks who flew out of Meigs were
> specifically NOT jet-setters.

Others have reputed this.

>
> 3. Single Engine Prop planes make substantially less noise than most of the
> bands listed [Black Eyed Peas, for example]

The arena speakers face outwards, towards the lake.

>
> 4. Companies like Clear Channel and TicketMaster will give back much more
> to the local community than the aviation businesses based at Meigs?

AV moved to MDW, a great savings due to economies of scale: fuel, mech,
fire etc. already
there. BooKoo GA capacity in CGX area.

How
> many jobs have they created at the concert arena?

The usual arena type: vending, ushers, stage, etc.

> The common taxpayer was swindled into subsidizing another Media
> Conglomerate winfall project...

The revenues from Clear Channel will fund future park facilities on
NORTHERLY ISLAND. No
mooching from taxpayers.

> Congratulations!

Its a great addition, air pollution will be reduced as people don't
need to drive to remote concert
sheds.

JG

[[email protected]]

The case with most entertainment: movies, cable tv, etc.

JG

[[email protected]]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> >
> > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > In article . net>,
> > > "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > wrote in message
> > > > ups.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > We upgraded to underground lines, cha-cha. Be Gone FLYBOY MOOCHERS,
> off
> > > > > my property tax bill.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your property taxes aren't supporting the airport.
> >
> > Then where has all the money gone over 15 years? 300 DOLLARS
>
> Seeing as it is Dupage County I would suspect your money has been diverted
> to some politicians pet pork project.

It was almost like they were an independent nation out there, with
**********no accountability**************
to the taxpayers," Schillerstrom said.

That has changed, he said.

"I think they've turned the corner. I'm very proud of what they're
doing," Schillerstrom said. "My goal is to get them off the taxes as
soon as possible."

The Airport Authority now collects about $6.5 million annually in real
estate taxes--about 20 percent of its $29.9 million a year budget. None

of the property-tax revenue is used to pay airport operating costs.
Instead, the funds are used to retire debt........ (OF THE AIRPORT)

Moochers, pay your own DEBT, JG

[Andrew Gideon]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

> Years ago, in California, the California Pilots Assn. got the Division
> of Aeronautics to conduct surveys to determine the economic value of the
> state's GA airports.

Was this the 1991 Watsonville Airport Economic Study, prepared under
the direction of the Association of Monterey Bay Area Governments (AMBAG)?

That's cited here:

http://www.watsonvilleairport.com/facts.html

There was also a study of Manassas Regional in 2002 by Infrastructure
Management Group Inc. which found a $45.8 million impact on the local
and county economies and 562 jobs provided by the airport.

Glendale Arizona also did a study:

http://www.ci.glendale.az.us/Airport/impactstudy.cfm

Massachusetts:

http://www.edrgroup.com/edr1/library/lib_trans_air/P035-Mass-airports-economic.shtml

This includes profiles for individual airports. I found this especially
interesting as I've spent a fair bit of time flying into MA airports
for various reasons (though less so since they've mandated prop locks
on transients). Little Chatham Airport has almost 2000 MA visitors
a year (of which my wife and I have been a pair on occasion). That
quiet little strip generates over a million in salary and over four
million in sales.

Culpeper, VA:

http://www.culpepercounty.gov/Airport/MinutesArticle.asp

There are plenty of these to be found. Anyone ignoring these has
some agenda that extends beyond the realm of facts involving economic
impact. Yes, airports may receive funds of one sort or another, but so
do roads. The benefits of having roads are pretty clear, but they occur
in ways that are hard to charge back to the road (unless you want toll
booths everywhere {8^). Airports are similar. There's no special sales
tax; they just pay the normal sales tax that everyone else pays. There's
no special payroll tax; just the normal payroll tax that everyone pays.

And so on.

To merely look at the funding provided and call it a drain, ignoring
the benefits, is akin to calling roads a drain because we pay for their
upkeep. It's false to fact, and the claim itself is, as I wrote above,
indication that facts are not the topic of discussion.

Looking at a more global level, there's "The National Economic Impact of
Civil Aviation" from 2002 at:

http://www.gama.aero/dloads/DRI-WEFA_EconomicImpactStudy.pdf

Even more global:

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/assembl/a35/wp/wp042_en.pdf

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

wrote:


> Then where has the $300 over 15 years on my residential property tax
> bill
> gone?

In the salaries of employees at the airport, all of whom suffer payroll
taxes, use what money is left to purchase items on which there is sales
tax, etc.

It funds operations at the airport like maintaining the surface, necessary
so pilots can land there, tie down, and leave the airport grounds. What
they then do is spend money in the area, mostly on items which suffer a
sales tax.

And so on.

You pay for roads because they've a benefit. Roads cannot be charged their
cost directly (unless you want all roads to be tolled), but the benefits
exist nevertheless. It's therefore a sound investment. Airports, as shown
in the various studies I cited in a previous posting, operate in a similar
indirect fashion.

To ignore indirect payments such as these is to ignore economic reality. Is
that your intent, or are you merely ignorant of how money works? I hope
the latter, as ignorance is something one can correct. A willful avoidance
of facts is dishonesty (and an unwillful avoidance is psychosis).

So take a look at those studies, or not. Learn, or not.

- Andrew

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wet the bed (yet again) and whined:

> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > wet the bed (again) and wrote:
> >
> > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > In article . net>,
> > > > "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote in message
> > > > > ups.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We upgraded to underground lines, cha-cha. Be Gone FLYBOY MOOCHERS,
> > > > > > off
> > > > > > my property tax bill.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your property taxes aren't supporting the airport.
> > >
> > > Then where has all the money gone over 15 years? 300 DOLLARS
> > >
> > > > The politicians didn't like that, so they suppressed this program.
> > >
> > > What is suppressed, plenty of GA airports in CA and plenty of WRECKS
> > > compare Fullerton to LAX.
> >
> >
> > I see that "jgrove" omitted the fact that CA airports study showed
> > $110K/year economic benefit to airport areas per based aircraft (old
> > data, so we should assume more). He doesn't mention the amount of his
> > taxes going toward supporting street bums (sorry -- "homeless") or
> > bicycle lanes or other "feel good" tax-supported programs.
>
> Geez, GA is just like SANTA CLAUS,leave out some milk and cookies and
> santa will
> fly you all kinds of presents. Another "suppressed" study, PLONK.
>
> JG

But... for "jgrove" Santa has a nice bundle of sticks and coal!

Whine, whine, whine!





> > IMHO, he is just a jealous whiner who has nothing to offer but criticism.
> >
> > --
> > Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[[email protected]]

All produced for customers biased towards GA, using statements like
"estimates and multipliers".
The 190,000 operation of DuPage can afford another paying another $35
each and GET OFF MY
PERSONAL HOME'S PROPERTY TAX BILL! Use the savings from the DEATH TAX'S
Demise
and pay for your toys.

JG

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
>
> > Years ago, in California, the California Pilots Assn. got the Division
> > of Aeronautics to conduct surveys to determine the economic value of the
> > state's GA airports.
>
> Was this the 1991 Watsonville Airport Economic Study, prepared under
> the direction of the Association of Monterey Bay Area Governments (AMBAG)?
>
> That's cited here:
>
> http://www.watsonvilleairport.com/facts.html
>
> There was also a study of Manassas Regional in 2002 by Infrastructure
> Management Group Inc. which found a $45.8 million impact on the local
> and county economies and 562 jobs provided by the airport.
>
> Glendale Arizona also did a study:
>
> http://www.ci.glendale.az.us/Airport/impactstudy.cfm
>
> Massachusetts:
>
> http://www.edrgroup.com/edr1/library/lib_trans_air/P035-Mass-airports-economic.shtml
>
> This includes profiles for individual airports. I found this especially
> interesting as I've spent a fair bit of time flying into MA airports
> for various reasons (though less so since they've mandated prop locks
> on transients). Little Chatham Airport has almost 2000 MA visitors
> a year (of which my wife and I have been a pair on occasion). That
> quiet little strip generates over a million in salary and over four
> million in sales.
>
> Culpeper, VA:
>
> http://www.culpepercounty.gov/Airport/MinutesArticle.asp
>
> There are plenty of these to be found. Anyone ignoring these has
> some agenda that extends beyond the realm of facts involving economic
> impact. Yes, airports may receive funds of one sort or another, but so
> do roads. The benefits of having roads are pretty clear, but they occur
> in ways that are hard to charge back to the road (unless you want toll
> booths everywhere {8^). Airports are similar. There's no special sales
> tax; they just pay the normal sales tax that everyone else pays. There's
> no special payroll tax; just the normal payroll tax that everyone pays.
>
> And so on.
>
> To merely look at the funding provided and call it a drain, ignoring
> the benefits, is akin to calling roads a drain because we pay for their
> upkeep. It's false to fact, and the claim itself is, as I wrote above,
> indication that facts are not the topic of discussion.
>
> Looking at a more global level, there's "The National Economic Impact of
> Civil Aviation" from 2002 at:
>
> http://www.gama.aero/dloads/DRI-WEFA_EconomicImpactStudy.pdf
>
> Even more global:
>
> http://www.icao.int/icao/en/assembl/a35/wp/wp042_en.pdf
>
> - Andrew

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wet the bed some more and whined:

> All produced for customers biased towards GA, using statements like
> "estimates and multipliers".
> The 190,000 operation of DuPage can afford another paying another $35
> each and GET OFF MY
> PERSONAL HOME'S PROPERTY TAX BILL! Use the savings from the DEATH TAX'S
> Demise
> and pay for your toys.



Call it what you want, but the fact is that GA airports more than pay
for themselves and support the economy. I doubt that JG contributes much
to the economy -- certainly not as much as one GA pilot at the airport
that he disparages.

I doubt that his rundown trailer pays much tax anyhow -- he never
commented whether you support paying taxes to support street bums,
bicycle lanes and parks devoted only to backpackers, yet begrudges small
taxes toward productive airports.


Again: WHINE, WHINE, WHINE!

> Andrew Gideon wrote:
> > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> >
> > > Years ago, in California, the California Pilots Assn. got the Division
> > > of Aeronautics to conduct surveys to determine the economic value of the
> > > state's GA airports.
> >
> > Was this the 1991 Watsonville Airport Economic Study, prepared under
> > the direction of the Association of Monterey Bay Area Governments (AMBAG)?
> >
> > That's cited here:
> >
> > http://www.watsonvilleairport.com/facts.html
> >
> > There was also a study of Manassas Regional in 2002 by Infrastructure
> > Management Group Inc. which found a $45.8 million impact on the local
> > and county economies and 562 jobs provided by the airport.
> >
> > Glendale Arizona also did a study:
> >
> > http://www.ci.glendale.az.us/Airport/impactstudy.cfm
> >
> > Massachusetts:
> >
> > http://www.edrgroup.com/edr1/library/lib_trans_air/P035-Mass-airports-econo
> > mic.shtml
> >
> > This includes profiles for individual airports. I found this especially
> > interesting as I've spent a fair bit of time flying into MA airports
> > for various reasons (though less so since they've mandated prop locks
> > on transients). Little Chatham Airport has almost 2000 MA visitors
> > a year (of which my wife and I have been a pair on occasion). That
> > quiet little strip generates over a million in salary and over four
> > million in sales.
> >
> > Culpeper, VA:
> >
> > http://www.culpepercounty.gov/Airport/MinutesArticle.asp
> >
> > There are plenty of these to be found. Anyone ignoring these has
> > some agenda that extends beyond the realm of facts involving economic
> > impact. Yes, airports may receive funds of one sort or another, but so
> > do roads. The benefits of having roads are pretty clear, but they occur
> > in ways that are hard to charge back to the road (unless you want toll
> > booths everywhere {8^). Airports are similar. There's no special sales
> > tax; they just pay the normal sales tax that everyone else pays. There's
> > no special payroll tax; just the normal payroll tax that everyone pays.
> >
> > And so on.
> >
> > To merely look at the funding provided and call it a drain, ignoring
> > the benefits, is akin to calling roads a drain because we pay for their
> > upkeep. It's false to fact, and the claim itself is, as I wrote above,
> > indication that facts are not the topic of discussion.
> >
> > Looking at a more global level, there's "The National Economic Impact of
> > Civil Aviation" from 2002 at:
> >
> > http://www.gama.aero/dloads/DRI-WEFA_EconomicImpactStudy.pdf
> >
> > Even more global:
> >
> > http://www.icao.int/icao/en/assembl/a35/wp/wp042_en.pdf
> >
> > - Andrew

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> All produced for customers biased towards GA,

have you done any legitimate study?

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Involving airborne aircraft with severe damage and passenger injuries,
> yes,
>

Why are you changing the criteria now? Previously you defined a wreck as
missing the concrete and raising dirt clouds. Did you find that that
definition put ORD at a disadvantage?


>
> and still waiting for detailed benefits from GA, so far NONE.
>

Are you saying that transportation has no benefits?

[Jay Honeck]

> Call it what you want, but the fact is that GA airports more than pay
> for themselves and support the economy.

That's for sure.

Our all-GA airport (Iowa City Municipal) contributes $5.7 million to the
local economy annually, for a yearly operational expense of around $180K.

Source: Iowa State University. Read it here:

http://alexisparkinn.com/Iowa%202000%20Report%20on%20GA%20Airports/gen_aviation.pdf

If only the rest of our government was so "expensive"...we'd all be
billionaires.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>> 1. Have you seen those ticket prices? You could have learned to fly for
>> less!
>>
>
> Free listening on a blanket in the park.
>

That's for moochers.


>>
>> 2. Jets didn't land at Meigs. The folks who flew out of Meigs were
>> specifically NOT jet-setters.
>>
>
> Others have reputed this.
>

Few jets could use Meigs, the runway was only 3899' long and runway 18 had a
displaced threshold leaving only 3350' available for landing traffic.


>>
>> 4. Companies like Clear Channel and TicketMaster will give back much more
>> to the local community than the aviation businesses based at Meigs?
>>
>
> AV moved to MDW, a great savings due to economies of scale: fuel, mech,
> fire etc. already there. BooKoo GA capacity in CGX area.
>

GA capacity in the CGX area has been zero since CGX was closed.


>>
>>How many jobs have they created at the concert arena?
>>
>
> The usual arena type: vending, ushers, stage, etc.
>

How does that compare with the jobs lost by the closure of CGX?


>>
>> The common taxpayer was swindled into subsidizing another Media
>> Conglomerate winfall project...
>>
>
> The revenues from Clear Channel will fund future park facilities on
> NORTHERLY ISLAND. No
> mooching from taxpayers.
>

The revenues from Clear Channel will find their way to Daley's pocket. The
taxpayers lost an asset when Meigs was closed, they didn't need another
park.


>>
>> Congratulations!
>>
>
> Its a great addition, air pollution will be reduced as people don't
> need to drive to remote concert
> sheds.
>

It's a loss. Parks were surplus in Chicago, they're short on airports.

[Andrew Gideon]

wrote:

> All produced for customers biased towards GA, using statements like
> "estimates and multipliers".

Uh huh. So those terms never otherwise show up in economics. Or you're
choosing to ignore facts. Ignorant, dishonest, or psychotic. Either way,
it matters not to me, as you're unwilling or unable to have a conversation.

- Andrew

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> All produced for customers biased towards GA, using statements like
> "estimates and multipliers".
>

What is your evidence that they were all produced for customers biased
towards GA?


>
> The 190,000 operation of DuPage can afford another paying another $35
> each and GET OFF MY PERSONAL HOME'S PROPERTY TAX BILL!
>

Only those that use DPA are paying to operate the airport. You are paying
nothing to operate the airport, even though you benefit from it's presence.
You are a moocher.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
>>
>> Then where has the $300 over 15 years on my residential property tax
>> bill gone?
>>
>
> In the salaries of employees at the airport, all of whom suffer payroll
> taxes, use what money is left to purchase items on which there is sales
> tax, etc.
>
> It funds operations at the airport like maintaining the surface, necessary
> so pilots can land there, tie down, and leave the airport grounds.
>

That's not correct. No property tax revenue is used for DPA airport
operating costs.

[Judah]

wrote in news:1120932052.721434.168060
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> The case with most entertainment: movies, cable tv, etc.

And yet you celebrate it. Amazing.

[[email protected]]

> > Free listening on a blanket in the park.
> >
>
> That's for moochers.

The PUBLIC PARKS are open until 2300, by your criteria boaters docked
there listening are moochers
too.

> >> 2. Jets didn't land at Meigs. The folks who flew out of Meigs were
> >> specifically NOT jet-setters.
> >>
> >
> > Others have reputed this.
> >
>
> Few jets could use Meigs, the runway was only 3899' long and runway 18 had a
> displaced threshold leaving only 3350' available for landing traffic.

a post by your friends of NORTHERLY ISLAND:

Meigs provides huge economic benefits to the downtown
business district of Chicago. Calculations based on a
1993
City of Chicago study indicate that--using extremely
conservative assumptions--Meigs contributes a minimum of

1,500 jobs and $57.3 million annually to the local
economy,
and perhaps 10 or more times those numbers. A survey
indicates that 76% of arriving (non-airline) aircraft
are in
Chicago to do business downtown. The large majority of
these
are large twin engine turboprop or executive jet
aircraft,

> >> 4. Companies like Clear Channel and TicketMaster will give back much more
> >> to the local community than the aviation businesses based at Meigs?
> >
> > AV moved to MDW, a great savings due to economies of scale: fuel, mech,
> > fire etc. already there. BooKoo GA capacity in CGX area.
> >
> GA capacity in the CGX area has been zero since CGX was closed.

MDW is 8 miles to the southwest. 4800 West, 5500 South.

> >> The common taxpayer was swindled into subsidizing another Media
> >> Conglomerate winfall project...
> >
> > The revenues from Clear Channel will fund future park facilities on
> > NORTHERLY ISLAND. No
> > mooching from taxpayers.
> >
>
> The revenues from Clear Channel will find their way to Daley's pocket. The
> taxpayers lost an asset when Meigs was closed, they didn't need another
> park.

What is YOUR EVIDENCE, do you process the mayor's tax return?

> >> Congratulations!
> >>
> > Its a great addition, air pollution will be reduced as people don't
> > need to drive to remote concert
> > sheds.
> >
>
> It's a loss. Parks were surplus in Chicago, they're short on airports.

Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?

JG

[Judah]

wrote in
oups.com:
<snip>
> Meigs provides huge economic benefits to the downtown
> business district of Chicago. Calculations based on a 1993
> City of Chicago study indicate that--using extremely
> conservative assumptions--Meigs contributes a minimum of
>
> 1,500 jobs and $57.3 million annually to the local economy,
> and perhaps 10 or more times those numbers. A survey
> indicates that 76% of arriving (non-airline) aircraft are in
> Chicago to do business downtown. The large majority of these
> are large twin engine turboprop or executive jet aircraft,

Will the new park and Arena contribute that much to the local economy?
How many people will come in from hundreds of miles out of town to see
concerts there? Of course, if they fly in, they will have to go to MDW
or ORD and pay the exhorbitant fees found in those places.


The simple fact is that while there are SOME people who are "jet
setters" as you say, and use GA as their "rich people toys", there are
many more who use GA for legitimate, practical, and community serving
purposes.

There are people who use small aircraft to get to work, or to travel
between business locations. Sales representatives use small aircraft to
visit customer sites and sales calls and make their living. Many people
fly for recreational purposes - just to get away, much like many people
own boats for recreational purposes. But these people are not rich
people, just ordinary people who use aircraft like you would use your
car because it suits their needs better. Many fly planes that sell for
prices that are in the same range as a luxury car. (There are even
planes that can be purchased for less than a Hyundai!)

Many of these pilots also volunteer to fly patients and their families
for Angel Flight and other similar public service missions to provide
care, compassion, or emergency medical services. Or they fly for the
Auxiliary Air Force or Auxiliary Coast Guard and help protect or save
people just like you.

And of course, as someone pointed out in another thread on this
newsgroup, the Airline pilots that fly the 737s and DC-10s out of MDW
and ORD weren't born with the yellow and black stripes on their
shoulders. They spent many years in places like Miegs learning to fly,
training others to fly, and gaining the knowledge and experience
required to safely carry hundreds of passengers and their cargo across
the country in large Airline Jets.

Maybe some day you'll find yourself sitting at that beach with your
kids, listening to the echoes of the rock concert banging away at what
used to be Meigs Field. Your son will look up at the sky and point and
says, "Look Daddy! Airplane! Airplane!" You can tell him the story of
how before he was born, people used to come to that very place with
their kids and get airplane rides for $35. But you can't take him for
one because the people of Chicago would rather pay their cable company
to listen to a bunch of street hoodlums yell about killing cops and
raping women with the tunes of oldies playing in the background.


Enjoy the concert.

[Andrew Gideon]

Judah wrote:

> But these people are not rich
> people, just ordinary people who use aircraft like you would use your
> car because it suits their needs better. Many fly planes that sell for
> prices that are in the same range as a luxury car. (There are even
> planes that can be purchased for less than a Hyundai!)

Even if we assume that some of these recreational and business visitors
arrive by jet, that just means that they'd have brought more money to spend
in the local economy (on the assumption that jet's cost more and therefore
those in jets have more to spend {8^).

That money is now going elsewhere.

- Andrew

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> The PUBLIC PARKS are open until 2300, by your criteria boaters docked
> there listening are moochers too.
>

Isn't partaking of something paid for by someone else your definition of
mooching?


>
> a post by your friends of NORTHERLY ISLAND:
>
> Meigs provides huge economic benefits to the downtown
> business district of Chicago. Calculations based on a
> 1993
> City of Chicago study indicate that--using extremely
> conservative assumptions--Meigs contributes a minimum of
>
> 1,500 jobs and $57.3 million annually to the local
> economy,
> and perhaps 10 or more times those numbers. A survey
> indicates that 76% of arriving (non-airline) aircraft
> are in
> Chicago to do business downtown. The large majority of
> these
> are large twin engine turboprop or executive jet
> aircraft,
>

Yes, closing CGX was a terrific blunder.


>
> MDW is 8 miles to the southwest. 4800 West, 5500 South.
>

I see we agree on something.


>
> What is YOUR EVIDENCE, do you process the mayor's tax return?
>

What is my evidence of what?


>
> Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
>

Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > The PUBLIC PARKS are open until 2300, by your criteria boaters docked
> > there listening are moochers too.
> >
>
> Isn't partaking of something paid for by someone else your definition of
> mooching?

The PUBLIC PARKS are open until 2300, no alcohol. The view is
spectacular,
a great skyline and Soldier Field, NFL mega-mooch for another n.g..

There happens to be some familiar amplified sound in the area and the
local harbor guards don't question anyone stopping and listening.
Maybe a young kid will listen and be inspired to learn music, or they
can drop in LANSING for a plane ride, their choice.

> >
> > a post by your friends of NORTHERLY ISLAND:
> >
> > Meigs provides huge economic benefits to the downtown
> > business district of Chicago. Calculations based on a
> > 1993
> > City of Chicago study indicate that--using extremely
> > conservative assumptions--Meigs contributes a minimum of
> >
> > 1,500 jobs and $57.3 million annually to the local
> > economy,
> > and perhaps 10 or more times those numbers.

A "calculation" thats "perhaps" wrong by a factor of TEN.

>
> >
> > MDW is 8 miles to the southwest. 4800 West, 5500 South.
> >
>
> I see we agree on something.

Which is it? 8 or 4 miles like you posted in 2003:

>I'm not familiar with the area, and too lazy to look it up, but is there
> another airport with-in gliding distance?

Midway is about four miles southwest.---Steven


Your postings indicate and out of state residency and Steven or RON
wants to dictate municipal facilities to 3 million residents.

>
>
> >
> > What is YOUR EVIDENCE, do you process the mayor's tax return?
> >
>
> What is my evidence of what?

"The revenues from Clear Channel will find their way to Daley's
pocket."

>
>
> >
> > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
> >
>
> Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.

Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and portions
are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard for
adequate public parks, for 3 million people?

JG

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:


> > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
> > >
> >
> > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
>
> Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and portions
> are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard for
> adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
>
> JG

OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be the
standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million people?

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[[email protected]]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
>
> > > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
> >
> > Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and portions
> > are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard for
> > adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
> >
> > JG
>
> OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be the
> standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million people?

I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the citizens
for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due just
fine.
ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so there's
a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing, Gary,
DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.

>
> --
> Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
> > >
> > > Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and portions
> > > are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard for
> > > adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
> > >
> > > JG
> >
> > OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be the
> > standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million people?
>
> I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the citizens
> for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due just
> fine.
> ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so there's
> a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing, Gary,
> DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.


I guess that those places would be good places for parks, no? Lakefront
property is expensive, so all those parks must be worth a bundle to
developers, no?

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[[email protected]]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
> > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > In article . com>,
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
> > > >
> > > > Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and portions
> > > > are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard for
> > > > adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
> > > >
> > > > JG
> > >
> > > OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be the
> > > standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million people?
> >
> > I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the citizens
> > for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due just
> > fine.
> > ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so there's
> > a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing, Gary,
> > DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.
>
>
> I guess that those places would be good places for parks, no?

In general, post WW-2 suburbs included ample park space, but IMHO
Waukegan's
lakefront location could be attractive for residential development.

Lakefront
> property is expensive, so all those parks must be worth a bundle to
> developers, no?

As is central park in NYC, but try selling off and see what happens!

The Mission of the Chi. PD is:
"Come Out & Play!
Discover the pleasures of Chicago Park District treasures! The Chicago
Park District manages over 220 stunning facilities throughout the city
- most can play host to your next event.
For more information about the Chicago Park District's more than 7300
acres of parkland, 552 parks, 33 beaches, nine museums, two world-class
conservatories, 16 historic lagoons, 10 bird and wildlife gardens,
thousands of special events, sports and entertaining programs, please
continue on through the event section."

I've read that the 7300 acres (just over 1 acre per 500 residents)
is considered sub-standard by urban planning
standards. Some sections of the city ranging from 1 to 1.5 square miles
have
no parks at all.

JG

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > In article . com>,
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and portions
> > > > > are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard for
> > > > > adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
> > > > >
> > > > > JG
> > > >
> > > > OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be the
> > > > standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million people?
> > >
> > > I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the citizens
> > > for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due just
> > > fine.
> > > ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so there's
> > > a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing, Gary,
> > > DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.
> >
> >
> > I guess that those places would be good places for parks, no?
>
> In general, post WW-2 suburbs included ample park space, but IMHO
> Waukegan's
> lakefront location could be attractive for residential development.
>
> Lakefront
> > property is expensive, so all those parks must be worth a bundle to
> > developers, no?
>
> As is central park in NYC, but try selling off and see what happens!
>
> The Mission of the Chi. PD is:
> "Come Out & Play!
> Discover the pleasures of Chicago Park District treasures! The Chicago
> Park District manages over 220 stunning facilities throughout the city
> - most can play host to your next event.
> For more information about the Chicago Park District's more than 7300
> acres of parkland, 552 parks, 33 beaches, nine museums, two world-class
> conservatories, 16 historic lagoons, 10 bird and wildlife gardens,
> thousands of special events, sports and entertaining programs, please
> continue on through the event section."
>
> I've read that the 7300 acres (just over 1 acre per 500 residents)
> is considered sub-standard by urban planning
> standards. Some sections of the city ranging from 1 to 1.5 square miles
> have
> no parks at all.
>
> JG


And ... the city has no GA-only airports and essentially only one that
handles any amount of GA --- for more than 3 million people! "jgrove"
begrudges Meigs to GA, while Chicago has all those parks.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > In article . com>,
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and
portions
> > > > > are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard for
> > > > > adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
> > > > >
> > > > > JG
> > > >
> > > > OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be the
> > > > standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million people?
> > >
> > > I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the citizens
> > > for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due just
> > > fine.
> > > ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so there's
> > > a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing, Gary,
> > > DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.
> >
> >
> > I guess that those places would be good places for parks, no?
>
> In general, post WW-2 suburbs included ample park space, but IMHO
> Waukegan's
> lakefront location could be attractive for residential development.
>
> Lakefront
> > property is expensive, so all those parks must be worth a bundle to
> > developers, no?
>
> As is central park in NYC, but try selling off and see what happens!
>
> The Mission of the Chi. PD is:
> "Come Out & Play!
> Discover the pleasures of Chicago Park District treasures! The Chicago
> Park District manages over 220 stunning facilities throughout the city
> - most can play host to your next event.
> For more information about the Chicago Park District's more than 7300
> acres of parkland, 552 parks, 33 beaches, nine museums, two world-class
> conservatories, 16 historic lagoons, 10 bird and wildlife gardens,
> thousands of special events, sports and entertaining programs, please
> continue on through the event section."

Many CPD parks aren't fit for humans. They are rundown, crime ridden, god
forsaken places which would better serve the community if Walmart were to
build on the property. Several downtown areas are nice but other than that
"dump" is a better description than park.

[Thomas Borchert]

Orval,

> And ... the city has no GA-only airports and essentially only one that
> handles any amount of GA --- for more than 3 million people! "jgrove"
> begrudges Meigs to GA, while Chicago has all those parks.
>

Do we see the NIMBY syndrome rear its ugly head yet?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Dave Stadt" > wrote:

> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> >
> > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > In article . com>,
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > > In article . com>,
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and
> portions
> > > > > > are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard for
> > > > > > adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JG
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be the
> > > > > standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million people?
> > > >
> > > > I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the citizens
> > > > for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due just
> > > > fine.
> > > > ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so there's
> > > > a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing, Gary,
> > > > DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.
> > >
> > >
> > > I guess that those places would be good places for parks, no?
> >
> > In general, post WW-2 suburbs included ample park space, but IMHO
> > Waukegan's
> > lakefront location could be attractive for residential development.
> >
> > Lakefront
> > > property is expensive, so all those parks must be worth a bundle to
> > > developers, no?
> >
> > As is central park in NYC, but try selling off and see what happens!
> >
> > The Mission of the Chi. PD is:
> > "Come Out & Play!
> > Discover the pleasures of Chicago Park District treasures! The Chicago
> > Park District manages over 220 stunning facilities throughout the city
> > - most can play host to your next event.
> > For more information about the Chicago Park District's more than 7300
> > acres of parkland, 552 parks, 33 beaches, nine museums, two world-class
> > conservatories, 16 historic lagoons, 10 bird and wildlife gardens,
> > thousands of special events, sports and entertaining programs, please
> > continue on through the event section."
>
> Many CPD parks aren't fit for humans. They are rundown, crime ridden, god
> forsaken places which would better serve the community if Walmart were to
> build on the property. Several downtown areas are nice but other than that
> "dump" is a better description than park.

Doesn't that description pretty much fit the whole city?

When I was in school at the U of I, we downstaters liked to tell the
Chicagophiles that what Chicago needed was another fire.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Dave Stadt]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote:
>
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > In article . com>,
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > > > In article
. com>,
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park
surplus?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and
> > portions
> > > > > > > are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard
for
> > > > > > > adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > JG
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be
the
> > > > > > standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million
people?
> > > > >
> > > > > I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the
citizens
> > > > > for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due
just
> > > > > fine.
> > > > > ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so
there's
> > > > > a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing,
Gary,
> > > > > DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I guess that those places would be good places for parks, no?
> > >
> > > In general, post WW-2 suburbs included ample park space, but IMHO
> > > Waukegan's
> > > lakefront location could be attractive for residential development.
> > >
> > > Lakefront
> > > > property is expensive, so all those parks must be worth a bundle to
> > > > developers, no?
> > >
> > > As is central park in NYC, but try selling off and see what happens!
> > >
> > > The Mission of the Chi. PD is:
> > > "Come Out & Play!
> > > Discover the pleasures of Chicago Park District treasures! The Chicago
> > > Park District manages over 220 stunning facilities throughout the city
> > > - most can play host to your next event.
> > > For more information about the Chicago Park District's more than 7300
> > > acres of parkland, 552 parks, 33 beaches, nine museums, two
world-class
> > > conservatories, 16 historic lagoons, 10 bird and wildlife gardens,
> > > thousands of special events, sports and entertaining programs, please
> > > continue on through the event section."
> >
> > Many CPD parks aren't fit for humans. They are rundown, crime ridden,
god
> > forsaken places which would better serve the community if Walmart were
to
> > build on the property. Several downtown areas are nice but other than
that
> > "dump" is a better description than park.
>
> Doesn't that description pretty much fit the whole city?
>
> When I was in school at the U of I, we downstaters liked to tell the
> Chicagophiles that what Chicago needed was another fire.

Actually it is in much better shape than in decades past. daley had to turn
things around in the loop as the rest of the world was passing chicago by
and businesses were leaving by the thousands. Quite a bit of it could burn
to the ground and the loss would be about $12. .

[[email protected]]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and portions
> > > > > > are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard for
> > > > > > adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JG
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be the
> > > > > standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million people?
> > > >
> > > > I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the citizens
> > > > for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due just
> > > > fine.
> > > > ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so there's
> > > > a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing, Gary,
> > > > DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.
> > >
> > >
> > > I guess that those places would be good places for parks, no?
> >
> > In general, post WW-2 suburbs included ample park space, but IMHO
> > Waukegan's
> > lakefront location could be attractive for residential development.
> >
> > Lakefront
> > > property is expensive, so all those parks must be worth a bundle to
> > > developers, no?
> >
> > As is central park in NYC, but try selling off and see what happens!
> >
> > The Mission of the Chi. PD is:
> > "Come Out & Play!
> > Discover the pleasures of Chicago Park District treasures! The Chicago
> > Park District manages over 220 stunning facilities throughout the city
> > - most can play host to your next event.
> > For more information about the Chicago Park District's more than 7300
> > acres of parkland, 552 parks, 33 beaches, nine museums, two world-class
> > conservatories, 16 historic lagoons, 10 bird and wildlife gardens,
> > thousands of special events, sports and entertaining programs, please
> > continue on through the event section."
> >
> > I've read that the 7300 acres (just over 1 acre per 500 residents)
> > is considered sub-standard by urban planning
> > standards. Some sections of the city ranging from 1 to 1.5 square miles
> > have
> > no parks at all.
> >
> > JG
>
>
> And ... the city has no GA-only airports and essentially only one that
> handles any amount of GA --- for more than 3 million people! "jgrove"
> begrudges Meigs to GA, while Chicago has all those parks.

Simple real estate economics, land for a GA AP (plus buffer areas) is
non
existant. The Burnham Plan called for additional islands in the lake.
Private
interests could create the landfill and build the AP, with appropriate
user fees.

The city air traveler is well served by the airline industry, with
99.99 percent
showing no interest in piloting. Like air-show announcer and UAL Cap.
Herb Hunter
said, "I only fly planes with kitchens and lavs".

JG
>
> --
> Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[[email protected]]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> >
> > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > In article . com>,
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > > In article . com>,
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and
> portions
> > > > > > are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard for
> > > > > > adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JG
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be the
> > > > > standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million people?
> > > >
> > > > I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the citizens
> > > > for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due just
> > > > fine.
> > > > ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so there's
> > > > a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing, Gary,
> > > > DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.
> > >
> > >
> > > I guess that those places would be good places for parks, no?
> >
> > In general, post WW-2 suburbs included ample park space, but IMHO
> > Waukegan's
> > lakefront location could be attractive for residential development.
> >
> > Lakefront
> > > property is expensive, so all those parks must be worth a bundle to
> > > developers, no?
> >
> > As is central park in NYC, but try selling off and see what happens!
> >
> > The Mission of the Chi. PD is:
> > "Come Out & Play!
> > Discover the pleasures of Chicago Park District treasures! The Chicago
> > Park District manages over 220 stunning facilities throughout the city
> > - most can play host to your next event.
> > For more information about the Chicago Park District's more than 7300
> > acres of parkland, 552 parks, 33 beaches, nine museums, two world-class
> > conservatories, 16 historic lagoons, 10 bird and wildlife gardens,
> > thousands of special events, sports and entertaining programs, please
> > continue on through the event section."
>
> Many CPD parks aren't fit for humans. They are rundown, crime ridden, god
> forsaken places which would better serve the community if Walmart were to
> build on the property. Several downtown areas are nice but other than that
> "dump" is a better description than park.

Many urban cities have similiar problems, and non-city dwellers should
feel
grateful that cities house some unwanted residents. Walmart would
want the land for free, plus additional subsidies.

JG

[Arketip]

wrote:


>
> The city air traveler is well served by the airline industry, with
> 99.99 percent
> showing no interest in piloting. Like air-show announcer and UAL Cap.
> Herb Hunter
> said, "I only fly planes with kitchens and lavs".
>
> JG
>


Yes, and of course he learned to fly on 747s

[[email protected]]

So Stadt-ville is offering to build affordable housing for low income
people?
$100 Millions worth of condos going up west of Meigs.

JG

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Dave Stadt wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > In article . com>,
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > > > In article
. com>,
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park
surplus?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and
> > portions
> > > > > > > are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard
for
> > > > > > > adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > JG
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be
the
> > > > > > standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million
people?
> > > > >
> > > > > I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the
citizens
> > > > > for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due
just
> > > > > fine.
> > > > > ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so
there's
> > > > > a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing,
Gary,
> > > > > DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I guess that those places would be good places for parks, no?
> > >
> > > In general, post WW-2 suburbs included ample park space, but IMHO
> > > Waukegan's
> > > lakefront location could be attractive for residential development.
> > >
> > > Lakefront
> > > > property is expensive, so all those parks must be worth a bundle to
> > > > developers, no?
> > >
> > > As is central park in NYC, but try selling off and see what happens!
> > >
> > > The Mission of the Chi. PD is:
> > > "Come Out & Play!
> > > Discover the pleasures of Chicago Park District treasures! The Chicago
> > > Park District manages over 220 stunning facilities throughout the city
> > > - most can play host to your next event.
> > > For more information about the Chicago Park District's more than 7300
> > > acres of parkland, 552 parks, 33 beaches, nine museums, two
world-class
> > > conservatories, 16 historic lagoons, 10 bird and wildlife gardens,
> > > thousands of special events, sports and entertaining programs, please
> > > continue on through the event section."
> >
> > Many CPD parks aren't fit for humans. They are rundown, crime ridden,
god
> > forsaken places which would better serve the community if Walmart were
to
> > build on the property. Several downtown areas are nice but other than
that
> > "dump" is a better description than park.
>
> Many urban cities have similiar problems, and non-city dwellers should
> feel
> grateful that cities house some unwanted residents. Walmart would
> want the land for free, plus additional subsidies.

Give it to them. Think of the boon to the economy. New jobs, sales and
property tax revenue, etc. The city would be foolish not to give the
rundown drug and crime infested parks to Walmart.

>
> JG
>

[[email protected]]

Morgans wrote:
> "Orval Fairbairn" > wrote
>
> > GA airports are part of our transportation system and fill a vital role
> > there. Only a fool would deny that.
>
> Not too mention that a whole lot of GA is training and building hours, for
> commercial pilots. Everyone wants to have pilots for their aluminum tubes,
> don't they?
> --
> Jim in NC

The US military produces fine commercial candidates, a good deal:
Training
to defend the county (most of the time) and qualified commericial
pilots
upon retirement.

JG

[Dave Stadt]

"Arketip" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > The city air traveler is well served by the airline industry, with
> > 99.99 percent
> > showing no interest in piloting. Like air-show announcer and UAL Cap.
> > Herb Hunter
> > said, "I only fly planes with kitchens and lavs".
> >
> > JG
> >
>
>
> Yes, and of course he learned to fly on 747s

He never learned to fly, what he does is more akin to and in many ways
easier than driving a bus.

[[email protected]]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> >
> > Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > > > wrote in message
> > > ups.com...
> > > >
> > > > So by your definition, 9/11 was nothing also, a wreck is a wreck.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Please show me where he defined 9/11 as nothing.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > This place has had more wrecks on a percentage of operations basis
> than
> > > > ORD.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Does it? What are the operations counts for ORD and LL22 and how many
> > > wrecks have they had in the same time period?
> >
> > Let's see, ORD does 100K's a year, LL22 maybe 10-20 a day.
> > During my 15 years in the area, Wrecks:
> > LL22-Two
> > ORD- an AMR jet hits the dirt, short of the rr. No injuries, but if you
> > miss the concrete and raise dirt clouds, thats a wreck in my book.
> > A decent record, but given Murphy's rule maybe a foam-er is due.
> >
> > JG
>
> I seem to remember a huge cloud of smoke upon leaving work one day back in
> the '80s. Hundreds died. Based on your twisted thought process I guess you
> should be lobbying to have O'Hare closed.

The UAL DC-10 crashed in 1979. I support following proper maintenance
procedures, especially when mounting engines.

JG

[[email protected]]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> >
> > Then where has all the money gone over 15 years? 300 DOLLARS
> >
> > > The politicians didn't like that, so they suppressed this program.
> >
> > What is suppressed, plenty of GA airports in CA and plenty of WRECKS
> > compare Fullerton to LAX.
>
>
> I see that "jgrove" omitted the fact that CA airports study showed
> $110K/year economic benefit to airport areas per based aircraft (old
> data, so we should assume more). He doesn't mention the amount of his
> taxes going toward supporting street bums (sorry -- "homeless") or
> bicycle lanes or other "feel good" tax-supported programs.

There are NO entries on my RESIDENTAL PROPERTY TAX BILL for:
-DuPage Bum Authority (many churches provide shelter services thru
PADS)
-Hoover Dam
-Yosemite NP
-Waikiki Beach
-New Jersey Turnpike
-Golden Gate Bridge

There is for the DPA.

JG

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> So Stadt-ville is offering to build affordable housing for low income
> people?
> $100 Millions worth of condos going up west of Meigs.
>
> JG

Don't forget the south side. Lots of redevelopment potential down there
also. Think of all the low income housing that could have been built or
rehab work that could have been done with millenium park money. How many
tens of millions of dollars was that project over budget? How many west
and south siders get to use it? If maggie was a true humanitarian she
should have had dickey build low income housing on northerly island. How
far do you think that would have gotten with the down town jet setters?

$100 million is a drop in the bucket. That's maybe 200 to 300 units, not
even worth mentioning really.

[Andrew Gideon]

wrote:

>> I see that "jgrove" omitted the fact that CA airports study showed
>> $110K/year economic benefit to airport areas per based aircraft (old
>> data, so we should assume more). He doesn't mention the amount of his
>> taxes going toward supporting street bums (sorry -- "homeless") or
>> bicycle lanes or other "feel good" tax-supported programs.
>
> There are NO entries on my RESIDENTAL PROPERTY TAX BILL for:
> -DuPage Bum Authority (many churches provide shelter services thru
> PADS)
> -Hoover Dam
> -Yosemite NP
> -Waikiki Beach
> -New Jersey Turnpike
> -Golden Gate Bridge

I cannot speak to the others, but the NJ Turnpike gets funding from the
state's tax on fuel. It also has received federal monies in the past.

However, I see that our economic illiterate is still unable to address the
issue of monies brought into an area by a GA airport.

- Andrew

[[email protected]]

Arketip wrote:
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > The city air traveler is well served by the airline industry, with
> > 99.99 percent
> > showing no interest in piloting. Like air-show announcer and UAL Cap.
> > Herb Hunter
> > said, "I only fly planes with kitchens and lavs".
> >
> > JG
> >
>
>
> Yes, and of course he learned to fly on 747s

Cap. Hunter mentioned training in the USAF and retired from reserve
service.

[[email protected]]

> Officials with the Federal Aviation Administration are investigating
> the crash. The pilot, William Helwig Jr., 62, of Downers Grove, said he
> had problems immediately after leaving the small airstrip that cuts
> through the private Brookeridge subdivision near Darien.
>
> "Upon takeoff, he began having engine difficulty and he tried to circle
> back and land it, but he couldn't make it," said Robert Tinucci, chief
> administrator with the Darien-Woodridge Fire Protection District. "We
> were happy he was able to avoid any structures."
>
> The plane went down just before noon and crashed across the street from
> Darien-Woodridge's Fire Station No. 3 at 87th Street and Lemont Road.
> Firefighters ran across the street and began tending to the victims,
> officials said, and were quickly aided by personnel from other
> firehouses and fire departments.

Some interesting notes:
-Fortunately, a station was within running distance, at the end of the
western "crash zone"
-No such luck for the eastern "crash zone" a wreck there requires FF to
travel 3-4 miles.
-D-W FD is not as generous in responding to aid another FD, as I
witnessed this
week with a car fire in a Cub Foods parking lot, a backup fire engine
had
to travel 3 miles, when the DWFD Mega-HQ is 1 mile east.

[[email protected]]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article >,
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote:
>
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > In article . com>,
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > > > > > In article . com>,
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again, what's YOUR evidence that the CPD has a park surplus?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Look at a map. Most of the lakeshore is occupied by parks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Most? Portions occupy the space between LSD and the lake, and
> > portions
> > > > > > > are private residencies and industrial. What's your standard for
> > > > > > > adequate public parks, for 3 million people?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > JG
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be the
> > > > > > standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million people?
> > > > >
> > > > > I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the citizens
> > > > > for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due just
> > > > > fine.
> > > > > ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so there's
> > > > > a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing, Gary,
> > > > > DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I guess that those places would be good places for parks, no?
> > >
> > > In general, post WW-2 suburbs included ample park space, but IMHO
> > > Waukegan's
> > > lakefront location could be attractive for residential development.
> > >
> > > Lakefront
> > > > property is expensive, so all those parks must be worth a bundle to
> > > > developers, no?
> > >
> > > As is central park in NYC, but try selling off and see what happens!
> > >
> > > The Mission of the Chi. PD is:
> > > "Come Out & Play!
> > > Discover the pleasures of Chicago Park District treasures! The Chicago
> > > Park District manages over 220 stunning facilities throughout the city
> > > - most can play host to your next event.
> > > For more information about the Chicago Park District's more than 7300
> > > acres of parkland, 552 parks, 33 beaches, nine museums, two world-class
> > > conservatories, 16 historic lagoons, 10 bird and wildlife gardens,
> > > thousands of special events, sports and entertaining programs, please
> > > continue on through the event section."
> >
> > Many CPD parks aren't fit for humans. They are rundown, crime ridden, god
> > forsaken places which would better serve the community if Walmart were to
> > build on the property. Several downtown areas are nice but other than that
> > "dump" is a better description than park.
>
> Doesn't that description pretty much fit the whole city?
>
> When I was in school at the U of I, we downstaters liked to tell the
> Chicagophiles that what Chicago needed was another fire.

Oh, downstate like the place with all the FREEWAYS paid for by NE IL
drivers, sure I've been there. Loved those smells on the way to
Decatur.
Careful around the meth-labs, they go boom sometimes.

JG

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> So Stadt-ville is offering to build affordable housing for low income
> people?
> $100 Millions worth of condos going up west of Meigs.
>
> JG

By your own reasoning, "affordable housing" just attracts "moochers," so
you don't want THAT.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> > Officials with the Federal Aviation Administration are investigating
> > the crash. The pilot, William Helwig Jr., 62, of Downers Grove, said he
> > had problems immediately after leaving the small airstrip that cuts
> > through the private Brookeridge subdivision near Darien.
> >
> > "Upon takeoff, he began having engine difficulty and he tried to circle
> > back and land it, but he couldn't make it," said Robert Tinucci, chief
> > administrator with the Darien-Woodridge Fire Protection District. "We
> > were happy he was able to avoid any structures."
> >
> > The plane went down just before noon and crashed across the street from
> > Darien-Woodridge's Fire Station No. 3 at 87th Street and Lemont Road.
> > Firefighters ran across the street and began tending to the victims,
> > officials said, and were quickly aided by personnel from other
> > firehouses and fire departments.
>
> Some interesting notes:
> -Fortunately, a station was within running distance, at the end of the
> western "crash zone"
> -No such luck for the eastern "crash zone" a wreck there requires FF to
> travel 3-4 miles.
> -D-W FD is not as generous in responding to aid another FD, as I
> witnessed this
> week with a car fire in a Cub Foods parking lot, a backup fire engine
> had
> to travel 3 miles, when the DWFD Mega-HQ is 1 mile east.

What in hell is a "crash zone?" The only reference to "crash zones"
around airports has been from ignoramuses.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Andrew Gideon]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

> What in hell is a "crash zone?"

A crash zone is what they call my touchdown point.

- Andrew

[Judah]

wrote in news:1121205663.052020.174230
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the citizens
> for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due just
> fine.
> ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so there's
> a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing, Gary,
> DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.

"Land is expensive." So let's take a wonderful historic public airport that
produced revenue and tear it down to install a public park so that people
can take their dogs to defacate..

OK. THAT makes sense!

[George Patterson]

Judah wrote:
>
> "Land is expensive." So let's take a wonderful historic public airport that
> produced revenue and tear it down to install a public park so that people
> can take their dogs to defacate..

And steal the money that the Federal government gave us to improve another
airport to build the park. Then claim the other airport is now too congested and
ask for even more money to "fix" that problem.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[[email protected]]

George Patterson wrote:
> Judah wrote:
> >
> > "Land is expensive." So let's take a wonderful historic public airport that
> > produced revenue and tear it down to install a public park so that people
> > can take their dogs to defacate..

Not cleaning up is a citable violation. The plan is for a "Nature
Park". IMHO,
Shelter Island in San Diego Bay is a good mixed-use project.

>
> And steal the money that the Federal government gave us to improve another
> airport to build the park. Then claim the other airport is now too congested and
> ask for even more money to "fix" that problem.

Speaking of the Feds:

"The closed El Toro Marine base officially became private property
Tuesday as Lennar Corp., which won the 3,700-acre former military
airfield in an auction in February, closed escrow with the Navy.

The nation's third largest home builder also signed a development
agreement with the city of Irvine, which annexed the base in 2003 and
named its redevelopment plan the Orange County Great Park.

Under the agreement, Lennar donated 1,375 acres of the land to Irvine
for parks and roads and other public uses and committed to pay $200
million in development fees to fund public works on the site.

In return, Lennar gained rights to build as many as 3,400 homes and 3
million square feet of commercial, industrial and office space."

The fences drop at another public facility, JG.

[[email protected]]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
>
> > What in hell is a "crash zone?"
>
> A crash zone is what they call my touchdown point.
>
> - Andrew

Whatever the official term is for the buffer acreage at the
ends of the runway. This may be filled by houses, trees, etc.

JG

[Gig 601XL Builder]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Andrew Gideon wrote:
>> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
>>
>> > What in hell is a "crash zone?"
>>
>> A crash zone is what they call my touchdown point.
>>
>> - Andrew
>
> Whatever the official term is for the buffer acreage at the
> ends of the runway. This may be filled by houses, trees, etc.
>
> JG
>

You really are a moron. If there is an official buffer acreage it certainly
isn't filled with houses.

[Bob Noel]

In article <rsABe.40273$DC2.16013@okepread01>,
"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote:

> You really are a moron. If there is an official buffer acreage it certainly
> isn't filled with houses.

don't confuse the poor boy with facts.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>> Isn't partaking of something paid for by someone else your definition of
>> mooching?
>>
>
> The PUBLIC PARKS are open until 2300, no alcohol. The view is
> spectacular, a great skyline and Soldier Field, NFL mega-mooch for another
> n.g..
>
> There happens to be some familiar amplified sound in the area and the
> local harbor guards don't question anyone stopping and listening.
> Maybe a young kid will listen and be inspired to learn music, or they
> can drop in LANSING for a plane ride, their choice.
>

But isn't partaking of something paid for by someone else your definition of
mooching?


>
> A "calculation" thats "perhaps" wrong by a factor of TEN.
>

Yes, the benefits may actually be far greater.


>>
>> I see we agree on something.
>>
>
> Which is it? 8 or 4 miles like you posted in 2003:
>

What we agreed on is that GA capacity in the CGX area has been zero since
CGX was closed.


>
> "The revenues from Clear Channel will find their way to Daley's
> pocket."
>

Simple logic. You don't really believe he'd have a public asset like CGX
destroyed without personal gain do you?


>
> Most?
>

Yes, most. Have you ever been to Chicago?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>> OK, buster, let's turn the tables: what do you think should be the
>> standard for adequate GA airports for a city of 3 million people?
>>
>
> I frankly haven't seen a movement by a large portion of the citizens
> for more capacity. MDW's size is 1 square mile and seems to due just
> fine.
> ORD takes GA, but ya gotta pay the fees. Land is expensive, so there's
> a limit for any new fields within city limits. Outside, Lansing, Gary,
> DPA, Shaumburg, Palwaukee, and Waukegan serve the region fine.
>

In other words, you have no idea of the standard for adequate GA airports
for a city of 3 million people.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Simple real estate economics, land for a GA AP (plus buffer areas) is
> non existant.
>

That's not correct. Land for a fine GA airport exists in the form of
Northerly Island.


>
> The city air traveler is well served by the airline industry, with
> 99.99 percent showing no interest in piloting.
>

That would make 30,000 that have shown an interest in piloting. How well
are they served?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> The US military produces fine commercial candidates, a good deal:
> Training to defend the county (most of the time) and qualified commericial
> pilots upon retirement.
>

It's been a long time since the US military provided the majority of pilots
for US airlines.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> There are NO entries on my RESIDENTAL PROPERTY TAX BILL for:
> -DuPage Bum Authority (many churches provide shelter services thru
> PADS)
> -Hoover Dam
> -Yosemite NP
> -Waikiki Beach
> -New Jersey Turnpike
> -Golden Gate Bridge
>
> There is for the DPA.
>

None of your property tax is used to pay DPA operating costs.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Some interesting notes:
> -Fortunately, a station was within running distance, at the end of the
> western "crash zone"
>

What's a "crash zone"?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> >
>> > What in hell is a "crash zone?"
>> >
>>
>> A crash zone is what they call my touchdown point.
>>
>
> Whatever the official term is for the buffer acreage at the
> ends of the runway. This may be filled by houses, trees, etc.
>

How can it be considered a buffer if it is filled by houses, trees, etc?

[Montblack]

("Steven P. McNicoll" wrote)
> How can it be considered a buffer if it is filled by houses, trees, etc?


(FCM) Flying Cloud Airport - south/west of Minneapolis - one of the Reliever
Airports for MSP.

Just got off the phone with Joe Harris - Airport Manager for both FCM and my
local airport ANE.

We talked about the story (2 years ago) in the Mpls Star-Tribune newspaper
about MAC's (Metropolitan Airport Commission) auctioning of (10?) homes next
to Flying Cloud Airport (FCM)

Homes were in the (1/2 mile long) "Runway Protection Area/Zone - B."
RPZ - "A" means clear of homes, structures, trees, etc.

Harris said FCM's "Clear Zone(?)" requirements come from a combination of
FAA,
MNDot, and the Twin Cities "Met(troplitan) Council" rules and regulations.
All overlapping.

MAC bought the homes in 2000 with an eye on future runway expansion.
(Putting people in those houses who can't complain in the future was one
goal - one family decided to stay put and did not sell to MAC.)

MAC auctioned off the houses in 2003. These were beautiful 1/2 acre,
3/4 acre, 1 acre, and some 2 acre lots... some homes with tennis courts.
Homes
were mostly 1960's style. One had a nice tennis court.

I was forbidden by my gal from bidding in 2003! Longer commute for her.
Drat. I would have come in too low anyway - homes went for 225K - 300+K. I
wanted the nice rambler on 2 (wooded!!) acres. Wanted it for 185K. Doh!

The new owners are not allowed to do any extra things to attract birds, have
bee hives, or grow tall trees, etc. Many property improvements need prior
approval from MAC, but MAC is flexible Joe Harris said.

BTW, MSP has Runway Protection Zone (issues) for it's 17/35 runway extension
project. It's called the Mall of America :-)


Montblack

[Andrew Gideon]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> That would make 30,000 that have shown an interest in piloting.Â*Â*HowÂ*well
> are they served?

Beyond which, anyone that would be willing to pay to be flown via private
charter is forced to use the further, busier, and more congested airports.
How many dollars is that costing that city, as business executives etc.
choose to spend their money in more friendly towns?

Remember: to these people time is money. They may not care about Chicago's
vandalism, but they do care that Chicago is willing to cost them time. So
elsewhere they go.

And, of course, the dollars they're not spending in Chicago are also not
being spent again by the people in Chicago not receiving them. But that's
a multiplier, and the OP has already explained that this is too complex a
concept (ie. Econ 101) to follow.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Montblack wrote:

> The new owners are not allowed to do any extra things to attract birds,
> have bee hives, or grow tall trees, etc.

How can they be "not allowed" to have bee hives? As fast as I kill the
damned things, they return. I wish they were outlawed. They I could get a
cop to ticket them or something.

Perhaps I can get my town to cite the hives for violating zoning laws?

<Laugh>

- Andrew

[[email protected]]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
> > That would make 30,000 that have shown an interest in piloting. How well
> > are they served?
>
> Beyond which, anyone that would be willing to pay to be flown via private
> charter is forced to use the further, busier, and more congested airports.
> How many dollars is that costing that city, as business executives etc.
> choose to spend their money in more friendly towns?
>
> Remember: to these people time is money. They may not care about Chicago's
> vandalism, but they do care that Chicago is willing to cost them time. So
> elsewhere they go.
>
> And, of course, the dollars they're not spending in Chicago are also not
> being spent again by the people in Chicago not receiving them. But that's
> a multiplier, and the OP has already explained that this is too complex a
> concept (ie. Econ 101) to follow.

Its too crowded already, cars making right turns are frequently blocked
by pedestrians.

"Travel to Chicago surpassed pre-9/11 levels for the first time last
year, with domestic leisure travelers leading the surge and
contributing to healthy weekend occupancy rates at downtown hotels.

A record 31.9 million visitors flocked to the city, a 7 percent
increase over 2003 and a slight rise above 2000 levels, according to
estimates the Chicago Convention and Tourism Bureau will release
Tuesday.

"This speaks volumes to the fact that things are improving," said
Christopher Bowers, chief executive of the bureau. "Our location helps
and our facilities--Navy Pier, McCormick Place, our hotels, our
cultural venues, our restaurants, Millennium Park--they help amplify
it."
.....
Domestic business travel grew by 5.5 percent over 2003, but at 13.2
million visitors it remained below the 2000 level of 13.9 million.

The convention bureau has not yet released 2004 data on attendance at
trade and consumer shows, which has been declining since 2000.

The bureau did release other data, however, showing that the number of
group meeting travelers has remained fairly constant since 2000.

And while the comeback in domestic business travel has been more muted
than for leisure travel, Chicago ranked as the No. 1 business travel
city last year, ahead of Orlando and New York, according to D.K.
Shifflet.

The city also saw a 20.6 percent increase in travelers from overseas,
to 935,000. This remains below the 2000 level of 1.35 million."

Stay away, we're full, NUMBER 1 in business travel--JG

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >>
> >> Isn't partaking of something paid for by someone else your definition of
> >> mooching?
> >>
> >
> > The PUBLIC PARKS are open until 2300, no alcohol. The view is
> > spectacular, a great skyline and Soldier Field, NFL mega-mooch for another
> > n.g..
> >
> > There happens to be some familiar amplified sound in the area and the
> > local harbor guards don't question anyone stopping and listening.
> > Maybe a young kid will listen and be inspired to learn music, or they
> > can drop in LANSING for a plane ride, their choice.
> >
>
> But isn't partaking of something paid for by someone else your definition of
> mooching?

Mooching is the McNicoll County Concert Authority collecting property
taxes
to pay for $15,000 worth of tickets each, for 450 Pilots, ooops,
people.

>
>
> >
> > A "calculation" thats "perhaps" wrong by a factor of TEN.
> >
>
> Yes, the benefits may actually be far greater.
>
>
> >>
> >> I see we agree on something.
> >>
> >
> > Which is it? 8 or 4 miles like you posted in 2003:
> >
>
> What we agreed on is that GA capacity in the CGX area has been zero since
> CGX was closed.
>
>
> >
> > "The revenues from Clear Channel will find their way to Daley's
> > pocket."
> >
>
> Simple logic. You don't really believe he'd have a public asset like CGX
> destroyed without personal gain do you?

Then give your evidence to US attorney Fitzgerald, he'll look at it
after
he finishes with the traitors.

JG

>
>
> >
> > Most?
> >
>
> Yes, most. Have you ever been to Chicago?

Native Born, JG

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Its too crowded already, cars making right turns are frequently blocked
> by pedestrians.
>

The parks aren't crowded.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Mooching is the McNicoll County Concert Authority collecting property
> taxes to pay for $15,000 worth of tickets each, for 450 Pilots, ooops,
> people.
>

Never mind, I think we've established your level of integrity.


>
> Then give your evidence to US attorney Fitzgerald, he'll look at it
> after he finishes with the traitors.
>

Are you kidding? In Chicago Daley is above the law.


>
> Native Born, JG
>

Apparently you've never spent much time near Meigs.

[Doug Semler]

In oups.com,
> slavered, and posted this:
> George Patterson wrote:
>> Judah wrote:
>>>
>>> "Land is expensive." So let's take a wonderful historic public airport
>>> that produced revenue and tear it down to install a public park so that
>>> people can take their dogs to defacate..
>
> Not cleaning up is a citable violation. The plan is for a "Nature
> Park". IMHO,
> Shelter Island in San Diego Bay is a good mixed-use project.
>


???? Shelter Island (note: not an island but more of a promontory) is
nothing but Hotels and private marinas....

--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
Displaced Bolts fan in Detroit :(
42
DNRC o-
Gur Hfrarg unf orpbzr fb shyy bs penc gurfr qnlf, uneqyl nalbar rira
erpbtavmrf fvzcyr guvatf yvxr ebg13 nalzber. Fnq, vfa'g vg?

[[email protected]]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
> > That would make 30,000 that have shown an interest in piloting. How well
> > are they served?
>
> Beyond which, anyone that would be willing to pay to be flown via private
> charter is forced to use the further, busier, and more congested airports.
> How many dollars is that costing that city, as business executives etc.
> choose to spend their money in more friendly towns?
>
> Remember: to these people time is money. They may not care about Chicago's
> vandalism, but they do care that Chicago is willing to cost them time. So
> elsewhere they go.
>
> And, of course, the dollars they're not spending in Chicago are also not
> being spent again by the people in Chicago not receiving them. But that's
> a multiplier, and the OP has already explained that this is too complex a
> concept (ie. Econ 101) to follow.

Well, some creatures will be flying on NI:

"The Chicago Park District agreed this month to convert part of the old
airport terminal at Meigs Field into the city's first wildlife
rehabilitation center. Located within earshot of the new Charter One
Pavilion on Northerly Island, the facility will provide emergency care
to hundreds of birds found injured in the Loop. Organizers hope to open
the facility by the end of July or early August.

The plan is in the early stages, and the location is likely temporary
as Park District officials craft the 78-acre peninsula into a multisite
nature preserve."

>
> - Andrew

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Andrew Gideon wrote:
> > Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> >
> > > That would make 30,000 that have shown an interest in piloting. How
well
> > > are they served?
> >
> > Beyond which, anyone that would be willing to pay to be flown via
private
> > charter is forced to use the further, busier, and more congested
airports.
> > How many dollars is that costing that city, as business executives etc.
> > choose to spend their money in more friendly towns?
> >
> > Remember: to these people time is money. They may not care about
Chicago's
> > vandalism, but they do care that Chicago is willing to cost them time.
So
> > elsewhere they go.
> >
> > And, of course, the dollars they're not spending in Chicago are also not
> > being spent again by the people in Chicago not receiving them. But
that's
> > a multiplier, and the OP has already explained that this is too complex
a
> > concept (ie. Econ 101) to follow.
>
> Its too crowded already, cars making right turns are frequently blocked
> by pedestrians.
>
> "Travel to Chicago surpassed pre-9/11 levels for the first time last
> year, with domestic leisure travelers leading the surge and
> contributing to healthy weekend occupancy rates at downtown hotels.
>
> A record 31.9 million visitors flocked to the city, a 7 percent
> increase over 2003 and a slight rise above 2000 levels, according to
> estimates the Chicago Convention and Tourism Bureau will release
> Tuesday.
>
> "This speaks volumes to the fact that things are improving," said
> Christopher Bowers, chief executive of the bureau. "Our location helps
> and our facilities--Navy Pier, McCormick Place, our hotels, our
> cultural venues, our restaurants, Millennium Park--they help amplify
> it."
> ....
> Domestic business travel grew by 5.5 percent over 2003, but at 13.2
> million visitors it remained below the 2000 level of 13.9 million.
>
> The convention bureau has not yet released 2004 data on attendance at
> trade and consumer shows, which has been declining since 2000.
>
> The bureau did release other data, however, showing that the number of
> group meeting travelers has remained fairly constant since 2000.
>
> And while the comeback in domestic business travel has been more muted
> than for leisure travel, Chicago ranked as the No. 1 business travel
> city last year, ahead of Orlando and New York, according to D.K.
> Shifflet.
>
> The city also saw a 20.6 percent increase in travelers from overseas,
> to 935,000. This remains below the 2000 level of 1.35 million."
>
> Stay away, we're full, NUMBER 1 in business travel--JG

A bit of the fox telling the farmer what a good job he has done guarding the
hen house. Drivel hardly worth reading except for comic relief.

[Dave Stadt]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Its too crowded already, cars making right turns are frequently blocked
> > by pedestrians.
> >
>
> The parks aren't crowded.


Actually they are.......homeless, drug addicts, drug dealers, muggers, etc.

[[email protected]]

..
>
> There are NO entries on my RESIDENTAL PROPERTY TAX BILL for:
> -DuPage Bum Authority (many churches provide shelter services thru
> PADS)
> -Hoover Dam
> -Yosemite NP
> -Waikiki Beach
> -New Jersey Turnpike
> -Golden Gate Bridge
>
> There is for the DPA.
>
> JG

The Airport Authority now collects about $6.5 million annually in real
estate taxes--about 20 percent of its $29.9 million a year budget.

[[email protected]]

Wow, those Stadt-ville parks are some mean acres.

JG

[[email protected]]

>
> ???? Shelter Island (note: not an island but more of a promontory) is
> nothing but Hotels and private marinas....

IIRC, the eastt side of SI Drive is an open public park, the west side
has various private developments.

JG

.. Fnq, vfa'g vg?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> The Airport Authority now collects about $6.5 million annually in real
> estate taxes--about 20 percent of its $29.9 million a year budget.
>

But uses none of it for airport operations, so those flying from DPA are not
mooching.

[[email protected]]

> > >
> > > And if there was a wreck and the trucks were away, many of YOU would
> > > complain.

Well-well

"No one was waiting for Greg Stanton on Sunday when he landed his
single-engine Piper Saratoga airplane at the Rogers Municipal Airport
in an emergency situation.

No crash truck. No ambulance. No first responders. "I noticed there
weren't any trucks," Stanton said. "I noticed the bay doors of the
fire station were closed. At that point I was starting to wonder, '
Where the hell is everybody?'"

The answer to Stanton's question was downtown Rogers, where,
according to Fire Chief Wesley Lewis, the crew in charge of manning
Station No. 3 - which is on the west side of the airport - was
picking up an auto part for an ambulance at Station No. 1. "It was a
fluky incident," Lewis said. "It's one of the shortest notices of an
aircraft emergency. Either we have no warning or we have 10 to 15
minutes."

In this case, the Fire Department received notice of the emergency
shortly before 10:30 a.m. when Stanton was two minutes from touching
ground. He had just taken off and was 10 miles from Rogers when smoke
began to fill the cockpit and the oil pressure started to drop. "There
was no doubt this was an emergency," Stanton said.

The nearest contingent of rescue workers was four minutes away at the
time, but they never came.

No drive by. No checkup. In fact, they didn't even roll a truck out
.....
It irked Stanton just as much, if not more, that no emergency personnel
arrived at the scene following the landing than the fact that no one
was there to greet him. "I don't care if they show up 30 minutes
later," Stanton said."

Bubba, take Greyhound next time---JG

[[email protected]]

> > > > The Mission of the Chi. PD is:
> > > > "Come Out & Play!
> > > > Discover the pleasures of Chicago Park District treasures! The Chicago
> > > > Park District manages over 220 stunning facilities throughout the city
> > > > - most can play host to your next event.
> > > > For more information about the Chicago Park District's more than 7300
> > > > acres of parkland, 552 parks, 33 beaches, nine museums, two
> world-class
> > > > conservatories, 16 historic lagoons, 10 bird and wildlife gardens,
> > > > thousands of special events, sports and entertaining programs, please
> > > > continue on through the event section."
> > >
> > > Many CPD parks aren't fit for humans. They are rundown, crime ridden,
> god
> > > forsaken places which would better serve the community if Walmart were
> to
> > > build on the property. Several downtown areas are nice but other than
> that
> > > "dump" is a better description than park.
> >
> > Many urban cities have similiar problems, and non-city dwellers should
> > feel
> > grateful that cities house some unwanted residents. Walmart would
> > want the land for free, plus additional subsidies.
>
> Give it to them. Think of the boon to the economy. New jobs, sales and
> property tax revenue, etc. The city would be foolish not to give the
> rundown drug and crime infested parks to Walmart.

Can Walmart make any deals now? Their board of directors is
short-handed.
Some kind of accident, scuba diving? snow skiing? Oh, thats right,
SPLAT!
John Denver is his co-pilot now.

JG

[vlado]

wrote:
> Thomas Borchert wrote:
> > > no benefit to me
> > > or 99.999% of the population
> > >
> >
> > You actually believe the stuff you're posting here, including that
> > little non-truth?
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>
> DuPage population is 800,000 people, maybe 400 pilots use it, Get off
> my property tax bill
> you moochers. Gotta love that GOP low tax crowd, except when it
> benefits them.
>
> JG

DuPage is charging me tax for 99.99% of the roads that I do NOT use.
Please get it off MY property tax bill. (Each road ought to have a
user tax).
VL

[Doug Semler]

JG wrote:
> I wrote:
>> ???? Shelter Island (note: not an island but more of a promontory) is
>> nothing but Hotels and private marinas....

> IIRC, the eastt side of SI Drive is an open public park, the west side
> has various private developments.

1) The public park is only about 200 ft wide, and is then a rocky
outcrop into the bay. It is a mile long.
2) The park is truly useless as a park. A *good* park is one that
utilizes the area to provide recreational services to native area
dwellers; *they* are the ones that support the building and maintenance
of such parks. To tell the truth, I don't know many natives that
actually use the park, except for some of those that live in Pt.Loma to
use the boat launch. I was born and raised in SD, and have been to SI
once...to eat. It's a PITA to get to unless you are already there. The
park is really just a green grass and tree buffer from the bay to the
road for protection from tidal surges (the park is bay side...SI is
near the mouth of the bay). Harbor Island has one as well. There are
much better parks in the SD area than that. (Mission Bay Park, Torrey
Pines, Chula Vista's JStreet, Mission Beach [Belmont Roller Coaster],
Ocean Beach, Carlsbad State Beach, Coronado State Beach [bay and ocean
sides], etc etc....)

Like I said, Shelter Island is nothing really but hotels and private
marinas (with an odd restaurant or two thrown in for good measure).

P.S. If you wanted to give a "good" example of a multi-use area in San
Diego, I would have chosen the East Village area. There is:
Seaport Village (businesses and Public Bayside Park)
HighRise Condos
Convention Center
(new) Petco Park
Gaslamp Quarter (ahhh, I miss the Old Spaghetti Factory)
etc.

[[email protected]]

vlado wrote:
> wrote:
> > Thomas Borchert wrote:
> > > > no benefit to me
> > > > or 99.999% of the population
> > > >
> > >
> > > You actually believe the stuff you're posting here, including that
> > > little non-truth?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
> >
> > DuPage population is 800,000 people, maybe 400 pilots use it, Get off
> > my property tax bill
> > you moochers. Gotta love that GOP low tax crowd, except when it
> > benefits them.
> >
> > JG
>
> DuPage is charging me tax for 99.99% of the roads that I do NOT use.
> Please get it off MY property tax bill. (Each road ought to have a
> user tax).
> VL

The county HWY dept. stopped its PT levy years ago, after the 4 cent
county gas tax was added. Perhaps you're refering to various Township
HWY Dept. Property Tax levies, which go towards unincorporated streets
only.

JG

[[email protected]]

Humphrey's, ahem, music venue, looks busy this year:

07/21/05 Bruce Hornsby

Fri 07/22/05 Sinbad

Sat 07/23/05 Renee Austin

Sun 07/24/05 Poco

Wed 07/27/05 Dead Can Dance

Fri 07/29/05 Linda Eder

Sun 07/31/05 The B-52's

Mon 08/01/05 Jesse Winchester
Mon 08/01/05 Marc Cohn
Mon 08/01/05 Suzanne Vega

Tue 08/02/05 Chaka Khan

Wed 08/03/05 "B.B. King Blues Festival 2005"
Wed 08/03/05 Joe Bonamassa
Wed 08/03/05 Kenny Wayne Shepherd

Thu 08/04/05 Jacqui Naylor
Thu 08/04/05 Michael McDonald

Fri 08/05/05 Lonestar

Sun 08/07/05 Air Supply

Wed 08/10/05 The Temptations

Thu 08/11/05 John Hiatt
Thu 08/11/05 Shawn Colvin

Fri 08/12/05 Dana Carvey

Sat 08/13/05 The Farmers

Sun 08/14/05 Cecilio & Kapono

Mon 08/15/05 Cowboy Junkies
Mon 08/15/05 Dar Williams

Tue 08/16/05 Bobby McFerrin
Tue 08/16/05 Chick Corea

Wed 08/17/05 Judy Collins
Wed 08/17/05 Richie Havens

Thu 08/18/05 John Legend
Thu 08/18/05 Lyfe Jennings

Fri 08/19/05 "Dave Koz & Friends"
Fri 08/19/05 Jeffrey Osborne
Fri 08/19/05 Marc Antoine
Fri 08/19/05 Praful

Mon 08/22/05 Al Jarreau
Mon 08/22/05 Cassandra Wilson
Mon 08/22/05 The Rippingtons feat. Russ Freeman

Tue 08/23/05 Trio! Stanley Clarke, Bela Fleck & Jean-Luc Ponty

Thu 08/25/05 America
Thu 08/25/05 Pure Prairie League

Fri 08/26/05 Big Bad Voodoo Daddy

Sun 08/28/05 The Doobie Brothers

Mon 08/29/05 Johnny Clegg Featuring Juluka & Savuka

[ORVAL FAIRAIRN]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Humphrey's, ahem, music venue, looks busy this year:


Who cares? You forgot Johnny Pineapple and his band of fruits.

You STILL haven't answered the question of why did it HAVE to be
Northerly Island? Why not any other of the many parks in Chicago?

[Doug Semler]

What does this have to do with anything? Humphrey's is a *PRIVATE*
(*NOT* funded by public money. *NOT* on public property. Isn't that
what this is about?) concert venue that seats 1350 people. Tickets for
shows are $45+. If you want dinner, add $52 per ticket. If you want
to park near the venue, add $6. But it's moot. That property has a
restaurant and hotel as well, which are the main attractions.

[[email protected]]

Doug Semler wrote:
> What does this have to do with anything? Humphrey's is a *PRIVATE*
> (*NOT* funded by public money. *NOT* on public property. Isn't that
> what this is about?) concert venue that seats 1350 people. Tickets for
> shows are $45+. If you want dinner, add $52 per ticket. If you want
> to park near the venue, add $6. But it's moot. That property has a
> restaurant and hotel as well, which are the main attractions.

IIRC, SI was built by the SD port district, using harbor dredgings.
I recall seeing signs posted by the port district in the park.

JG

[[email protected]]

The lease expired on NI and its owned by the taxpayers of the PARK
District.
Concert revenues are being used to develop the park.

The executives of Charter One Bank support this with their sponsorship.

"Resting between the horizon of Lake Michigan and the magnificent
Chicago Skyline, Charter One Pavilion is located in the heart of
Chicago's Museum Campus. The stunning surroundings make this a perfect
place to spend a summer night, while
enjoying live music from a variety of performers. Events range from
concerts to family matinee events making Charter One Pavilion a great
new destination for everyone"

History moves on: buggy whips, US manufacturing jobs, Meigs....--JG

[ORVAL FAIRAIRN]

In article om>,
wrote:

> The lease expired on NI and its owned by the taxpayers of the PARK
> District.
> Concert revenues are being used to develop the park.
>
> The executives of Charter One Bank support this with their sponsorship.
>
> "Resting between the horizon of Lake Michigan and the magnificent
> Chicago Skyline, Charter One Pavilion is located in the heart of
> Chicago's Museum Campus. The stunning surroundings make this a perfect
> place to spend a summer night, while
> enjoying live music from a variety of performers. Events range from
> concerts to family matinee events making Charter One Pavilion a great
> new destination for everyone"
>
> History moves on: buggy whips, US manufacturing jobs, Meigs....--JG


Then that is a good reason to boycott Charter One Bank!

As everyone knows, the Daley Machine controls the Park District (and
everything else in Chicago), so the "lease" was really with the city,
not the puppet Park Disrtict.

You STILL haven't addressed the question of "Why Northerly Island, when
Chicago has so many other, better parks?"

[[email protected]]

ORVAL FAIRAIRN wrote:
> In article om>,
> wrote:
>
> > The lease expired on NI and its owned by the taxpayers of the PARK
> > District.
> > Concert revenues are being used to develop the park.
> >
> > The executives of Charter One Bank support this with their sponsorship.
> >
> > "Resting between the horizon of Lake Michigan and the magnificent
> > Chicago Skyline, Charter One Pavilion is located in the heart of
> > Chicago's Museum Campus. The stunning surroundings make this a perfect
> > place to spend a summer night, while
> > enjoying live music from a variety of performers. Events range from
> > concerts to family matinee events making Charter One Pavilion a great
> > new destination for everyone"
> >
> > History moves on: buggy whips, US manufacturing jobs, Meigs....--JG
>
>
> Then that is a good reason to boycott Charter One Bank!
>
> As everyone knows, the Daley Machine controls the Park District (and
> everything else in Chicago), so the "lease" was really with the city,
> not the puppet Park Disrtict.
>
> You STILL haven't addressed the question of "Why Northerly Island, when
> Chicago has so many other, better parks?"

Simply can't justify fencing off 78 acres for 50 aircraft users per
day. At $10 million/acre
market rate, the Walmart heirs could easily afford to make an
offer--$780 miillion and its
yours.

JG

[ORVAL FAIRAIRN]

In article . com>,
wet the bed and puked:


> >
> > You STILL haven't addressed the question of "Why Northerly Island, when
> > Chicago has so many other, better parks?"
>
> Simply can't justify fencing off 78 acres for 50 aircraft users per
> day. At $10 million/acre
> market rate, the Walmart heirs could easily afford to make an
> offer--$780 miillion and its
> yours.


OH? And just how much does a park cost to maintain and run?

BTW, if Meigs had been run like a proper airport, rather than being
starved and harassed to death, it would have been a jewel on the
Lakefront. Daley and his crowd simply didn't want any kind of airport
there -- end of discussion.

[Doug Semler]

Granted, the property is public, leased to a private enterprise.
Actually, SI was mainly "built up" (it was already a natural shoal) by
the dredging ops of the Navy during WWII (to allow SD Bay to take in
carriers. The 1950's saw expansion of this dredging to bring the
island 7 ft above mean high tide.

But what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? The
original thread was about how "Meigs now enjoyed by all." You
parallelled the gov't 'rezoning' Meigs as a concert venue with SI. SI
is not a really good parallel...The land is leased by the port
authority to various hotels, eateries, and private marinas. What makes
you think that (aside from rent and use taxes) that San Diego sees any
money from what happens at a concert venue? What the leasees do with
the land is the lesee's business (subject to the lease
restrictions/zoning/etc, of course). The only monies that the Port
district of San Diego receives from the activities on the island are:
Lease (OK, I admit, there's probably some good money on prime
property made here. However, with the City Attorney looking into the
terms of the more than 600 leases, I would not be surprised if there
weren't some bad dealings here....)
Sales Tax revenues (IIRC 7.25% in city of SD)
TOT revenues (10.5% in city of SD) (This is probably why there are
mostly hotels on the island)
I don't know if there is any tax on moorings in the various marinas.

San Diego does not see one penny (aside from sales tax and possibly
permit fees...which actually could be waived as one of the terms of the
lease!) of revenue from the concerts in a private venue like Humprhy's.
That'd be like saying that the City of LA started realizing money from
the concerts put on at the House of Blues.

[[email protected]]

Doug Semler wrote:
> Granted, the property is public, leased to a private enterprise.
> Actually, SI was mainly "built up" (it was already a natural shoal) by
> the dredging ops of the Navy during WWII (to allow SD Bay to take in
> carriers. The 1950's saw expansion of this dredging to bring the
> island 7 ft above mean high tide.
>
> But what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? The
> original thread was about how "Meigs now enjoyed by all." You
> parallelled the gov't 'rezoning' Meigs as a concert venue with SI. SI
> is not a really good parallel...The land is leased by the port
> authority to various hotels, eateries, and private marinas.

SI and Meigs are similiar: both are landfills by government agencies,
and
both are near urban centers. I expressed the opinion that SI would
make a good model for Northerly Island development.

>
> San Diego does not see one penny (aside from sales tax and possibly
> permit fees...which actually could be waived as one of the terms of the
> lease!) of revenue from the concerts in a private venue like Humprhy's.
> That'd be like saying that the City of LA started realizing money from
> the concerts put on at the House of Blues.

I would expect property tax collection on the lesee's private
buildings.

Also, the Greek Theatre and Hollywood Bowl are gov. owned, LA city or
county.

JG