When to best train glider and power?

[private]

Many people suggest a large benefit for student power pilots to fly some
dual in a glider and similarly many parts of successful glider piloting can
be more cost effectively learned in a power plane. As an example, it is
cheaper to do multiple landings in a power plane when learning to land.

Do the instructors here have opinions regarding the advisability of a mixed
curriculum and the best place in the training to fly each type?

Do other pilots have experience or comments?

thanks

[BTIZ]

Ideally, a glider student would start before age 14 (solo at 14) and then
transition to power some where along the line (solo power at 16) glider
rating at 16.. If you are older, then either way. Many would say complete
one before starting the other. We have had a few students taking lessons in
both at the same time. Some have done ok, others have problems transitioning
between the two aircraft.

As a pilot in both types, and a Glider instructor, I would suggest at least
up to Solo in the glider before transitioning to power. You learn
coordination, adverse yaw, what your feet are for and pitch controls
airspeed, plus the normal airport environment and such. Introduction to
Spins and Spin recovery would be nice too.

If you complete the power certificate first, then you only take one written
test, as the glider rating becomes an "add-on" rating.

JMHO
BT

"private" > wrote in message
news:1FEye.163396$El.4062@pd7tw1no...
> Many people suggest a large benefit for student power pilots to fly some
> dual in a glider and similarly many parts of successful glider piloting
> can
> be more cost effectively learned in a power plane. As an example, it is
> cheaper to do multiple landings in a power plane when learning to land.
>
> Do the instructors here have opinions regarding the advisability of a
> mixed
> curriculum and the best place in the training to fly each type?
>
> Do other pilots have experience or comments?
>
> thanks
>
>

[Vaughn]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:%4Fye.47795$go.24460@fed1read05...
> Ideally, a glider student would start before age 14 (solo at 14) and then
> transition to power some where along the line (solo power at 16) glider rating
> at 16..

I have seen several kids take this track (including my daughter) and it
works well...for kids.

> If you are older

Then you have to remember that negative transfer is a real issue. There
are many things that are drastically different between glider and power and it
might be best to learn one at a time. I am a GFIG who finally transitioned to
airplanes in his late 50's. Some of my lessons were uglier than I would like to
admit. On my checkride, I amused my designee (not) with a beautiful approach
stall recovery...power off!

Vaughn

[Doug]

Moneywise it is less expensive to get the power rating first, then the
glider. However if you are under 16, then glider may be a better option
to do first. The glider rating is fairly easy once you have the power
rating. All those tows cost quite a bit. You will already know how to
land a glider if you can land an airplane (well, it may take two or
three practice trys to do it well). But essentially yoiu are there.
Experienced glider pilots can fly for several hours on one tow, so once
you have the glider rating, it is less to fly gliders, from what I have
seen. I do think all airplane pilots benefit from some glider training.
If nothing else, you really begin to believe in landing with no engine!

[Charles Petersen]

Where I fly in Canada (www.yorksoaring.com), the cost of training to a
glider pilot's licence is about $2,000 Canadian (US$1,600), and a private
pilot's licence power training cost is around 5 times that at about $10,000
Canadian (US$8,000).

The glider training costs include club membership, tows and glider rental.
Instruction is free from volunteers. As for the youth, twice each summer,
the first two weeks of July and again the first two weeks of August, we
offer a Flight Camp where we take students from Ab Initio to Licence, for
about $1,600 Canadian (by now you can do the math). Our club gliders rent
from 30 to 50 cents a minute, and tows are $25.

A lot cheaper than flying power!

Charles Petersen

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Moneywise it is less expensive to get the power rating first, then the
> glider. However if you are under 16, then glider may be a better option
> to do first. The glider rating is fairly easy once you have the power
> rating. All those tows cost quite a bit. You will already know how to
> land a glider if you can land an airplane (well, it may take two or
> three practice trys to do it well). But essentially yoiu are there.
> Experienced glider pilots can fly for several hours on one tow, so once
> you have the glider rating, it is less to fly gliders, from what I have
> seen. I do think all airplane pilots benefit from some glider training.
> If nothing else, you really begin to believe in landing with no engine!
>

[Doug]

Yes, well free instruction helps the cost. If you can get that, go for
it. I flew an hour and a half with an instructor and it was more per
hour than renting a 172 with an instructor. The tows weren't cheap, I
had to rent the glider and pay the instructor. I believe the short tows
I had were about $30 each and I had three of them. The instructor was
about $35 an hour and then there was glider rental. But it would only
take me about 5 such lessons to add on a glider rating on top of my
airplane rating. Also, did you include the club membership? Your $1600
seems awfully low, if you can get it, it is, indeed a good deal. Go for
it!

[soarski]

It depends on where one takes the training. Soaring conditions. If
there is plenty of Lift, an instructor can get 1 to 3 hrs with one tow
and demonstrate the basics of flgtht. Otherwise, and in the winter
going up in a light airplane first, showing those, may be more
economical, patterns landings included. Even a Xcountry flight could be
demonstrated in a higher performance sailplane or a selflauncher.

If available, airplanes, gliders and rated instructors a mixed training
maybe more economical. Almost half the required time for a power
license could be done in a glider.

Reading the Regs 61 aeronautical experience for both ratings carefully
you can figure it out yourself. Under Private pilot airplane,
whenever it does not say time in sgl engine airplane, it can be done in
a glider. BTW that goes for the comm too.

All this applies tor the US regulations

[M B]

Asking on RAS about the benefits of powered
airplane training...hmmm...

Isn't that a little like going into a donut shop to
ask about cooking a ribeye?

Here, have a donut O
:)

At 23:42 05 July 2005, Private wrote:
>Many people suggest a large benefit for student power
>pilots to fly some
>dual in a glider and similarly many parts of successful
>glider piloting can
>be more cost effectively learned in a power plane.
> As an example, it is
>cheaper to do multiple landings in a power plane when
>learning to land.
>
>Do the instructors here have opinions regarding the
>advisability of a mixed
>curriculum and the best place in the training to fly
>each type?
>
>Do other pilots have experience or comments?
>
>thanks
>
>
>
Mark J. Boyd

[Bryan Mason]

Charles Petersen wrote:
> Where I fly in Canada (www.yorksoaring.com), the cost of training to a
> glider pilot's licence is about $2,000 Canadian (US$1,600), and a private
> pilot's licence power training cost is around 5 times that at about $10,000
> Canadian (US$8,000).
>
> The glider training costs include club membership, tows and glider rental.
> Instruction is free from volunteers. As for the youth, twice each summer,
> the first two weeks of July and again the first two weeks of August, we
> offer a Flight Camp where we take students from Ab Initio to Licence, for
> about $1,600 Canadian (by now you can do the math). Our club gliders rent
> from 30 to 50 cents a minute, and tows are $25.

Is that "dry tach"? Seriously, though, how is the time measured? Is it
"check out" time to "check in" time or is there some other kind of
instrumentation. As a power student pilot, I'm just curious.

-- Bryan

[Don Hammer]

>
>Reading the Regs 61 aeronautical experience for both ratings carefully
>you can figure it out yourself. Under Private pilot airplane,
>whenever it does not say time in sgl engine airplane, it can be done in
>a glider. BTW that goes for the comm too.
>
>All this applies tor the US regulations

All those long flights I did in a glider using my eyes and a map
didn't count as a cross country for a power private because I didn't
land when I got there. It didn't matter that I went 300 miles and
returned, no landing, no cross country. I can fly a Piper with two
Garmin 430's and land more than 50 miles away and it counts.

Some how the regs don't seem fair at times.

By the way, the last two round-the-world flights don't count as cross
countries either so I guess I shouldn't feel too bad.

[[email protected]]

I believe that it is important to remember we are all PILOTS. As both
an active glider and power instructor I find that glider pilots benefit
from power training--and power pilots benefit from glider training.

Where to start often depends on availability and finances. Certainly
here in Eastern PA it is far less expensive to earn a glider rating
than a power rating. It may also require quite a bit more travel time.


I do believe that a student should not mix instruction. Certainly
"intro" and basic flights are not a problem, but some of the basics of
landing power vs gliders are quite different, and can be quite
confusing to the student (law of primacy). My suggestion is pick one
and go for it. After you get one rating feel free to add another. In
my club, Philadelphia Glider Council, we have quite a number of dual
rated pilots, and several CFIs who are dual rated.

Flying is FUN--go for all of it. While you are at it add ratings such
as seaplane, multi engine, taildragger endorsement, etc and enjoy as
much as you can afford.

Skip Guimond

[Charles Petersen]

The time is take-off to landing, and the price is in Canadian $'s. $1
Canadian costs about $0.80 US.

Block time (one time payment for unlimited hours for the season) for SGS
1-26 & 1-23 for $300, and those plus a 1-34 and Grob CS 77 for $500. We use
a flight card system that records the times.

Charles

"Bryan Mason" > wrote in message
...
> Charles Petersen wrote:
>> Where I fly in Canada (www.yorksoaring.com), the cost of training to a
>> glider pilot's licence is about $2,000 Canadian (US$1,600), and a private
>> pilot's licence power training cost is around 5 times that at about
>> $10,000 Canadian (US$8,000).
>>
>> The glider training costs include club membership, tows and glider
>> rental. Instruction is free from volunteers. As for the youth, twice
>> each summer, the first two weeks of July and again the first two weeks of
>> August, we offer a Flight Camp where we take students from Ab Initio to
>> Licence, for about $1,600 Canadian (by now you can do the math). Our
>> club gliders rent from 30 to 50 cents a minute, and tows are $25.
>
> Is that "dry tach"? Seriously, though, how is the time measured? Is it
> "check out" time to "check in" time or is there some other kind of
> instrumentation. As a power student pilot, I'm just curious.
>
> -- Bryan
>
>

[Charles Petersen]

Well, come on up and get it. We operate 7 days a week, weather permitting,
from the end of May until the end of September. We have a campground with
hot showers and a kitchen, or there are nice local B & B's. No initiation
fee, and annual membership is under $400 US.

We'd love to see you.

Charles

"Doug" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Yes, well free instruction helps the cost. If you can get that, go for
> it. I flew an hour and a half with an instructor and it was more per
> hour than renting a 172 with an instructor. The tows weren't cheap, I
> had to rent the glider and pay the instructor. I believe the short tows
> I had were about $30 each and I had three of them. The instructor was
> about $35 an hour and then there was glider rental. But it would only
> take me about 5 such lessons to add on a glider rating on top of my
> airplane rating. Also, did you include the club membership? Your $1600
> seems awfully low, if you can get it, it is, indeed a good deal. Go for
> it!
>

[Bruce Hoult]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> I do believe that a student should not mix instruction. Certainly
> "intro" and basic flights are not a problem, but some of the basics of
> landing power vs gliders are quite different, and can be quite
> confusing to the student (law of primacy).

Um ... they are? In what way?

As far as I can tell the basics are exacly the same and the differences
are minor, such as maintaining constant speed vs maintaining constant
altitude (though you maintain constant speed in power while
climing/descending, just like a glider), use of throttle vs airbrakes
for glidepath control, and different items in the checklist. On the
other hand I don't have a power license and have only soloed the common
training types such as 152 and Tomahawk. (Though I have landed small
turbprops e.g. Caravan and Nomad dual)

Based only on my own experience learning to fly, I think it would have
been very beneficial at one point to head to the aero club and do half
an hour of circuits because I wa having trouble getting touchdowns
right. Looking at other people spending lots of money on the towplane
doing repeated circuits I suspect the same might be true of them too.
An up-and-down circuit uses about three minutes of time for both the
glider and the towplane, and it's about the same three minutes for a
Cessna too at our airfield. But a Cessna costs NZ$150 an hour, while
glider plus towplane is about $400 an hour.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[Mike Schumann]

I started as a power pilot and am working on my glider rating. While
knowing how to fly is kind of like riding a bike, I was surprised at how
much rudder is needed when flying gliders vs. power. It took me a half a
dozen flights before I got the hang of keeping the string centered.

I suspect that its probably a lot easier to transition from gliders to power
than the other way around, primarily for that reason.

Mike Schumann

"Bruce Hoult" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
>> I do believe that a student should not mix instruction. Certainly
>> "intro" and basic flights are not a problem, but some of the basics of
>> landing power vs gliders are quite different, and can be quite
>> confusing to the student (law of primacy).
>
> Um ... they are? In what way?
>
> As far as I can tell the basics are exacly the same and the differences
> are minor, such as maintaining constant speed vs maintaining constant
> altitude (though you maintain constant speed in power while
> climing/descending, just like a glider), use of throttle vs airbrakes
> for glidepath control, and different items in the checklist. On the
> other hand I don't have a power license and have only soloed the common
> training types such as 152 and Tomahawk. (Though I have landed small
> turbprops e.g. Caravan and Nomad dual)
>
> Based only on my own experience learning to fly, I think it would have
> been very beneficial at one point to head to the aero club and do half
> an hour of circuits because I wa having trouble getting touchdowns
> right. Looking at other people spending lots of money on the towplane
> doing repeated circuits I suspect the same might be true of them too.
> An up-and-down circuit uses about three minutes of time for both the
> glider and the towplane, and it's about the same three minutes for a
> Cessna too at our airfield. But a Cessna costs NZ$150 an hour, while
> glider plus towplane is about $400 an hour.
>
> --
> Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
> Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------