New Garmin 396 [Archive] - AviationBanter

July 6th 05, 10:58 PM

So... just got an email from Sportys about the new Garmin GPSMAP 396.

It looks pretty cool! A handheld with weather and terrain!

Also interesting are the interface features to get TIS from a GTX330
and to be able to change channels on an SL30. This could make the 396
an interesting cheapie option with almost all the functionality minus
IFR cert. for people with their own A/C and don't want to plonk down
the cash for a 430/530 installation. Hmm.

I wonder, though, will it really be able to download from the
satellites with the little antenna? I currently own a 196 and with the
built-in antenna it often has a hard time getting a lock on the GPS. I
might guess that the requirements to download the weather data (which
is a lot more data than GPS) would be higher.

$2,500 for a handheld GPS is a lot, though. Their are PDA solutions
that already do most of this stuff, albeit with a lot more wires around
the cockpit. As a renter, I think the compactness of this solution is
attractive. Heck, if they added an AI feature with an electronic gyro
that was built into the cigarette lighter plug (and thereby strapped
down apon being plugged in) (or something simple like that) I think I'd
buy it for $1k more.

Ah, but alas, products like this make me yearn for IFR approaches in a
handheld. If only....

-- dave j

Andrew Gideon

July 6th 05, 11:11 PM

wrote:

> $2,500 for a handheld GPS is a lot, though. Their are PDA solutions
> that already do most of this stuff, albeit with a lot more wires around
> the cockpit. As a renter, I think the compactness of this solution is
> attractive. Heck, if they added an AI feature with an electronic gyro
> that was built into the cigarette lighter plug (and thereby strapped
> down apon being plugged in) (or something simple like that) I think I'd
> buy it for $1k more.

I don't believe I'd be interested in a portable solution unless it could
serve as a backup to the vacuum instruments. That's available from several
other vendors, so - absent that "AI feature" you've mentioned - this is
just not an option for me.

- Andrew

Larry Dighera

July 7th 05, 12:13 AM

On 6 Jul 2005 14:58:14 -0700, wrote in
om>::

>
>So... just got an email from Sportys about the new Garmin GPSMAP 396.

Here's the Garmin link: http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap396/

Jimmy B.

July 7th 05, 01:23 AM

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On 6 Jul 2005 14:58:14 -0700, wrote in
> om>::
>
>
>>So... just got an email from Sportys about the new Garmin GPSMAP 396.
>
>
> Here's the Garmin link: http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap396/

Damn! $2500 bucks!? That's insane.

Does anyone know how much the subscription to the XM weather costs?

Steve DeMoss

July 7th 05, 01:24 AM

wrote in news:1120687094.746136.17990
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

(snipped)
> I wonder, though, will it really be able to download from the
> satellites with the little antenna? I currently own a 196 and with the
> built-in antenna it often has a hard time getting a lock on the GPS. I
> might guess that the requirements to download the weather data (which
> is a lot more data than GPS) would be higher.
>
(snipped)
>

Dave,

The signal from the two XM satellites is quite strong. I have a small
external antenna on my van and rarely lose signal at all (I have even
picked it up in the basement of the Nashville Convention Center, although
they may have a repeater installed).I suspect that reception would be even
better when airborne, since you would have no physical obstructions between
you and the two satellites and you would also be closer to the signal
source.

I notice on the pdf spec sheet available on the Garmin website that they
list the GXM-30 smart antenna under "Standard Accessories". The webpage for
the product also states that the antenna is "roughly three inches in
diameter", which leads me to believe that this is an external antenna that
is separate from the small antenna built into the unit.

This looks like a very comprehensive package in a handheld. There's even an
output jack for XM Radio (audio).

Steve DeMoss

Aluckyguess

July 7th 05, 02:01 AM

Thats a pretty nice unit.
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> So... just got an email from Sportys about the new Garmin GPSMAP 396.
>
> It looks pretty cool! A handheld with weather and terrain!
>
> Also interesting are the interface features to get TIS from a GTX330
> and to be able to change channels on an SL30. This could make the 396
> an interesting cheapie option with almost all the functionality minus
> IFR cert. for people with their own A/C and don't want to plonk down
> the cash for a 430/530 installation. Hmm.
>
> I wonder, though, will it really be able to download from the
> satellites with the little antenna? I currently own a 196 and with the
> built-in antenna it often has a hard time getting a lock on the GPS. I
> might guess that the requirements to download the weather data (which
> is a lot more data than GPS) would be higher.
>
> $2,500 for a handheld GPS is a lot, though. Their are PDA solutions
> that already do most of this stuff, albeit with a lot more wires around
> the cockpit. As a renter, I think the compactness of this solution is
> attractive. Heck, if they added an AI feature with an electronic gyro
> that was built into the cigarette lighter plug (and thereby strapped
> down apon being plugged in) (or something simple like that) I think I'd
> buy it for $1k more.
>
> Ah, but alas, products like this make me yearn for IFR approaches in a
> handheld. If only....
>
> -- dave j
>

Larry Dighera

July 7th 05, 02:33 AM

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 00:23:34 GMT, "Jimmy B."
> wrote in
et>::

>Does anyone know how much the subscription to the XM weather costs?

Here's a link to XM's WX Service and Pricing for Aviation:
http://www.xmradio.com/weather/av_service_pricing.html

It's not clear if the music and other radio content is included in the
WX service for aviation.

Nathan Young

July 7th 05, 03:02 AM

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 00:23:34 GMT, "Jimmy B."
> wrote:

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>> On 6 Jul 2005 14:58:14 -0700, wrote in
>> om>::
>>
>>
>>>So... just got an email from Sportys about the new Garmin GPSMAP 396.
>>
>>
>> Here's the Garmin link: http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap396/
>
>
>Damn! $2500 bucks!? That's insane.
>
>Does anyone know how much the subscription to the XM weather costs?

I have a WxWorx system in my plane and it is $29 or $49 for the
service packages...

http://www.wxworx.com/aviation/service_pricing.php

Not sure if this translates to Garmin...

-Nathan

Gerry Caron

July 7th 05, 03:36 AM

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 00:23:34 GMT, "Jimmy B."
> > wrote in
> et>::
>
>>Does anyone know how much the subscription to the XM weather costs?
>
> Here's a link to XM's WX Service and Pricing for Aviation:
> http://www.xmradio.com/weather/av_service_pricing.html
>
> It's not clear if the music and other radio content is included in the
> WX service for aviation.
>
It's not. It'll cost you the standard $12.95/mo additional.

Gerry

W P Dixon

July 7th 05, 04:05 AM

As Chris Rock would say,
" GOOD LORD THAT'S ALOT OF MONEY!!!!!!!" How bout I give you $1.50 and you
just point me in the general direction! ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> So... just got an email from Sportys about the new Garmin GPSMAP 396.
>>
..
>>
>> $2,500 for a handheld GPS is a lot, though. >>
>> -- dave j
>>
>
>

Jay Beckman

July 7th 05, 04:11 AM

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> As Chris Rock would say,
> " GOOD LORD THAT'S ALOT OF MONEY!!!!!!!" How bout I give you $1.50 and you
> just point me in the general direction! ;)
>
> Patrick
> student SPL
> aircraft structural mech
>

That's kinda the drill my CFI gave me:

Him: "See where you want to go?"
Me: "Ummm, yeah."
Him: "Point the nose that way ... keep pointing the nose that way until you
get there."

:O)

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[email protected]

July 7th 05, 04:41 AM

I am going to practice a new technique that my girlfriend has taught
me:

- don't buy the thing for two weeks
- imaging how cool it would be, what utility and joy you might get
from it, how frequently/infrequently you will use it, etc.
- visit the website frequently. download pictures and documentation.
learn about it as if you owned it
- if after two weeks you still want it, then buy it.

Since learning this technique I have saved myself from buying all
manner of techno gadgets. In fact, I've bought little more than
groceries in the past six months.

-- dave j

PS -- full disclosure: I already own a GPS and I'd say I get it out of
the flight bag for less than 1/4 of my fliying. When it is out, I
always do the same thing: set it down, on the back seat or give it to
pax for entertainment. After all, it's more fun to use my brain to
navigate. And yet... I do consider it an important piece of safety
equipment. It also is good at finding chinese restaurants in strange
cities for those important $100 egg rolls.

Richard Kaplan

July 7th 05, 12:57 PM

What PDA solution can you buy with this capability for $2,500 including the
PDA?

I think Garmin has hit a home run here.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Dan Luke

July 7th 05, 02:58 PM

"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
> What PDA solution can you buy with this capability for $2,500 including the
> PDA?
>
> I think Garmin has hit a home run here.

I agree. I've been dreaming about having WxWorx displayed on my 296, and now
Garmin's done it.

Information is scanty, though. How many of the WxWorx features will be
displayed on the 396? I know it will do NEXRAD, but what about, METARs,
TAFs, lightning, etc?

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

Peter R.

July 7th 05, 03:02 PM

Dan Luke > wrote:

> Information is scanty, though. How many of the WxWorx features will be
> displayed on the 396? I know it will do NEXRAD, but what about, METARs,
> TAFs, lightning, etc?

Here is a relevant quote to Sportys product page (and a marketing email
from them I received today):

"An integrated GXM 30 smart antenna makes the satellite connection,
enabling the unit to receive and process XM Weather and flight safety
products. In addition to offering the outstanding features and operation of
the GPSMAP 296, the GPSMAP 396 allows pilots to display NEXRAD radar,
Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFRs), METARs, TAFs, Winds Aloft and many
other useful weather products through a subscription with XM Radio data
services. "

http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&product_id=9590

--
Peter

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[email protected]

July 7th 05, 03:03 PM

Richard Kaplan wrote:
> What PDA solution can you buy with this capability for $2,500 including the
> PDA?
>

Actually it seems to me that this is about what most of the PDA rigs
cost. In theory, you get the added benefit of being able to gain new
capabilities by purchasing a $300 software upgrade rather than a new
$1500 all-in-one gizmo. In practice, someone who bought a Controlvision
system two years ago would likely buy a new PDA if he were to upgrade
to today's latest. Still, you're looking at a little less money.

OTOH, even though I *like* gadgetry, I've heard just enough grumbling
about freezing issues and the like on the CV forums to give me pause
about whether I want to mess with such things while flying. Here, the
Garmin approach wins, and solidly.

-cwk.

[email protected]

July 7th 05, 03:12 PM

wrote:
> So... just got an email from Sportys about the new Garmin GPSMAP 396.
>
> It looks pretty cool! A handheld with weather and terrain!
>
> Also interesting are the interface features to get TIS from a GTX330

Here's a question for the propellerheads out there: does TIS rely on a
Mode S squawk originating from the aircraft, or is it theoretically
possible to have a Mode S receiver-only? It would be nice to get
traffic without neding to upgrade your transponder, though this thing
is a brilliant way to get many people to do that upgrade without
needing to also go in for a 430/530 rig to get the value.

> Ah, but alas, products like this make me yearn for IFR approaches in a
> handheld. If only....

The FAA already approves of devices like this as situational awareness
devices. At this point I am coming close to concluding that the failure
to include approaches constitutes a major loss of added awareness and
thus compromises the potential of the device to enhance safety. What do
we need to do to get Garmin et. al. to include them?

Dan Luke

July 7th 05, 03:16 PM

"Peter R." wrote:
>
> > Information is scanty, though. How many of the WxWorx features will be
> > displayed on the 396? I know it will do NEXRAD, but what about, METARs,
> > TAFs, lightning, etc?
>
> Here is a relevant quote to Sportys product page (and a marketing email
> from them I received today):

Thanks.

Now I'd like to see Garmin post some close-up screen shots on their site.

Peter R.

July 7th 05, 03:17 PM

Dan Luke > wrote:

> Now I'd like to see Garmin post some close-up screen shots on their site.

That link I posted has a tab that takes you to additional pictures, and all
of those pictures are close-up screen shots.

--
Peter

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Richard Kaplan

July 7th 05, 03:35 PM

> wrote

> devices. At this point I am coming close to concluding that the failure
> to include approaches constitutes a major loss of added awareness and
> thus compromises the potential of the device to enhance safety. What do
> we need to do to get Garmin et. al. to include them?

All the Garmin portables since the 195 do have final approach segments for
all IFR approaches; that is a huge help in terms of situational awarenes.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan

July 7th 05, 03:36 PM

> wrote > about freezing issues and the like on the CV
forums to give me pause
> about whether I want to mess with such things while flying. Here, the
> Garmin approach wins, and solidly.

That is absolutely true... not to mention no dealing with power cables,
bluetooth, configuring windows, etc. etc.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Dan Luke

July 7th 05, 03:38 PM

"Peter R." wrote:
> > Now I'd like to see Garmin post some close-up screen shots on their site.
>
> That link I posted has a tab that takes you to additional pictures, and all
> of those pictures are close-up screen shots.

Yep, sure does. Looks like the 396 does it all.

Thanks again.

Dan Luke

July 7th 05, 03:40 PM

"Richard Kaplan" wrote:

>> Here, the
> > Garmin approach wins, and solidly.
>
> That is absolutely true... not to mention no dealing with power cables,
> bluetooth, configuring windows, etc. etc.

Anybody want to buy my complete bluetooth WxWorx setup including a damn nice
Sony VAIO notebook pc?

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

Paul Tomblin

July 7th 05, 04:19 PM

In a previous article, "Dan Luke" > said:
>Anybody want to buy my complete bluetooth WxWorx setup including a damn nice
>Sony VAIO notebook pc?

Sure, if it's less than $1000. :-)

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Confidence is the feeling you have before you understand the situation.

Dan Luke

July 7th 05, 04:55 PM

"Paul Tomblin" wrote:

> >Anybody want to buy my complete bluetooth WxWorx setup including a damn
nice
> >Sony VAIO notebook pc?
>
> Sure, if it's less than $1000. :-)

You're cruel, Tomblin. Hell, the pc alone's worth more than that.

....but if you're really interested we can talk. c172rg at bellsouth dot net

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

jsmith

July 7th 05, 06:25 PM

wrote:
> I am going to practice a new technique that my girlfriend has taught
> me:

She's your girlfriend now and you are being trained by her.
If there is marriage in your future, you had better buy everything you
want NOW!
The rules get tougher the farther into the relationship you venture.
Don't wait, BUY!!!
:-))

[email protected]

July 7th 05, 08:02 PM

wrote:
> I wonder, though, will it really be able to download from the
> satellites with the little antenna? I currently own a 196 and with the
> built-in antenna it often has a hard time getting a lock on the GPS. I
> might guess that the requirements to download the weather data (which
> is a lot more data than GPS) would be higher.

I have had a 196 for nearly 3 years and have never had a problem
getting or keeping a GPS lock. I don't even bother using the suction
cup window-mounted antenna; the little flip-up one works just fine from
the yoke mount in my Warrior.

Seth Masia

July 7th 05, 08:05 PM

When I was 14, my Air Explorer unit had a WWII-era Link Trainer; I had
about three dozen hours in it before I got my first ride in the Piper Colt.
The CFI said "Look through the windscreen!"

But I was too short . . . .

Seth

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:u31ze.12756$Qo.362@fed1read01...
> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> As Chris Rock would say,
>> " GOOD LORD THAT'S ALOT OF MONEY!!!!!!!" How bout I give you $1.50 and
>> you just point me in the general direction! ;)
>>
>> Patrick
>> student SPL
>> aircraft structural mech
>>
>
> That's kinda the drill my CFI gave me:
>
> Him: "See where you want to go?"
> Me: "Ummm, yeah."
> Him: "Point the nose that way ... keep pointing the nose that way until
> you get there."
>
> :O)
>
> Jay Beckman
> PP-ASEL
> Chandler, AZ
>

Morgans

July 7th 05, 09:34 PM

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
news:1120746983.96c8ea236aee82fdb45a0f6f90deb804@t eranews...
>
>
> > wrote > about freezing issues and the like on the
CV
> forums to give me pause
> > about whether I want to mess with such things while flying. Here, the
> > Garmin approach wins, and solidly.
>
> That is absolutely true... not to mention no dealing with power cables,
> bluetooth, configuring windows, etc. etc.

Only thing that gives me pause, is the size. That is a slew of info, for
the same size display as earlier models. Seems like it should be at least
25%, if not 50% larger, for that much money and features.
--
Jim in NC

Richard Kaplan

July 7th 05, 09:45 PM

"Morgans" > wrote in message

> Only thing that gives me pause, is the size. That is a slew of info, for
> the same size display as earlier models. Seems like it should be at least
> 25%, if not 50% larger, for that much money and features.

That is a good point but then again there are some cockpits where it is
already hard to fit a 296; anything bigger and the GPS would simply not work
in some cockpits. So there is a tradeoff to be made.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Morgans

July 7th 05, 10:26 PM

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote

> That is a good point but then again there are some cockpits where it is
> already hard to fit a 296; anything bigger and the GPS would simply not
work
> in some cockpits. So there is a tradeoff to be made.

All cockpits have knees, and an external antenna could be used.

I won't buy until size increases, but my guess is that Lowrance will soon
come out with equal or better features on it's 1000/2000 series, and that
Jay's unit (can't remember the name right now) will be close behind that.

I will make a prediction and say that a "fly though the boxes" display will
not be too much further behind, (2 years or less) on a portable model, for
not much more money.
--
Jim in NC

Richard Kaplan

July 7th 05, 10:52 PM

True... all cockpits have knees. But a lot of pilots do not like
kneeboards, no less equipment on their knees. My 296 stays on my
glareshield and I would not want it on my knee... different strokes for
different folks; Garmin is clearly trying to make as many people happy as
possible and I think the current form factor does that, although it cannot
make everyone happy.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Jonathan Goodish

July 8th 05, 12:33 AM

In article <1120746983.96c8ea236aee82fdb45a0f6f90deb804@terane ws>,
"Richard Kaplan" > wrote:
> forums to give me pause
> > about whether I want to mess with such things while flying. Here, the
> > Garmin approach wins, and solidly.
>
> That is absolutely true... not to mention no dealing with power cables,
> bluetooth, configuring windows, etc. etc.

No dealing with power cables? Do these things run on fuel cells?

You will still have at least two cables running from the GPS: one for
power and one for the antenna. That's a greater number of cables than
are presently running to my PDA, using Bluetooth to the XM receiver and
GPS with a competing software product. As someone else pointed out, you
will have a $2500 paperweight when the a new version with new
capabilities is released, if you want those new capabilities. And, as
far as I know, you can't take the 396 out of your airplane, pop it into
your back pocket, and jump on the WiFi network when you get to the
airport/hotel/restaurant, etc. I found the WiFi capability of even a
PDA to be very helpful for simple things like checking weather, filing
flight plans, etc. on a recent trip. Didn't have to lug the laptop
around.

That all being said, Garmin produces a very good, polished navigation
system that is hard to beat--in my opinion, none of the PDA-based
software products does navigation as cleanly. I wouldn't be surprised
if Garmin has implemented all of the XM weather features on the 395, but
I haven't seen confirmation. Garmin's development resources are much
greater than most of the PDA-based competitors.

As far as interfacing for TIS display, I wonder for how much longer this
will be a useful feature? Has anyone been able to confirm the reported
plans to start turning down TIS sites? I'm not sure that I'd invest in
a GTX330 at this point with TIS on its way out, but if you have one
already, it's certainly a selling point.

JKG

Aluckyguess

July 8th 05, 12:52 AM

The size is fine. I dont think I would want my 296 any bigger.
"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
> news:1120746983.96c8ea236aee82fdb45a0f6f90deb804@t eranews...
>>
>>
>> > wrote > about freezing issues and the like on the
> CV
>> forums to give me pause
>> > about whether I want to mess with such things while flying. Here, the
>> > Garmin approach wins, and solidly.
>>
>> That is absolutely true... not to mention no dealing with power cables,
>> bluetooth, configuring windows, etc. etc.
>
> Only thing that gives me pause, is the size. That is a slew of info, for
> the same size display as earlier models. Seems like it should be at least
> 25%, if not 50% larger, for that much money and features.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

Morgans

July 8th 05, 06:11 AM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote

> You will still have at least two cables running from the GPS: one for
> power and one for the antenna.

Garmin is claiming 5 to 10 hours battery life. Scratch one cable. (use
rechargeable NiMH, and most likely increase the run time)

Many have said their 295 gets great reception with no external antenna, when
mounted on the dash, or even the yoke. Scratch second power cable.

Looks like no cables to me, are possible.

I guess if you want to use the XM music output function, you will use one
cable, to go to the intercom, or earphones.
--
Jim in NC

Jonathan Goodish

July 8th 05, 02:00 PM

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:

> "Jonathan Goodish" > wrote
>
> > You will still have at least two cables running from the GPS: one for
> > power and one for the antenna.
>
> Garmin is claiming 5 to 10 hours battery life. Scratch one cable. (use
> rechargeable NiMH, and most likely increase the run time)
>
> Many have said their 295 gets great reception with no external antenna, when
> mounted on the dash, or even the yoke. Scratch second power cable.
>
> Looks like no cables to me, are possible.
>
> I guess if you want to use the XM music output function, you will use one
> cable, to go to the intercom, or earphones.

It looks like the 396 uses a lithium-ion battery pack. Not sure that
you would gain anything if you're even able to replace that with NiMH.
If you use the backlight all the time, Garmin's claim is 5 hours, which
is maybe enough for one leg of a long trip, and then you have to take
the unit out of the airplane to charge. The only way to eliminate
running out of juice in flight is to have it plugged in to aircraft
power, so that is plus one power cable. For what it's worth, PDAs also
run on batteries and I could get 5 hours out of a PDA with full
backlight if I used an extended battery back.

Second, it is my understanding that the XM antenna only resides in the
EXTERNAL "smart" antenna, which means if you want to use XM weather, you
are required to use the external antenna. Plus one more cable.

That equals at least 2 cables running from the GPS for full
functionality.

JKG

[email protected]

July 8th 05, 03:33 PM

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
> In article <1120746983.96c8ea236aee82fdb45a0f6f90deb804@terane ws>,
> "Richard Kaplan" > wrote:
> > forums to give me pause
> > > about whether I want to mess with such things while flying. Here, the
> > > Garmin approach wins, and solidly.
> >
> > That is absolutely true... not to mention no dealing with power cables,
> > bluetooth, configuring windows, etc. etc.

> GPS with a competing software product. As someone else pointed out, you
> will have a $2500 paperweight when the a new version with new
> capabilities is released, if you want those new capabilities. And, as

It's been my impression that as serious capability upgrades are
introduced to the PDA software, the hardware requirements grow with it.
As a result, if you bought a PDA solution 3 years back, and wanted to
upgrade the software now, wouldn't you find yourself upgrading the PDA
too? (And the GPS if, say, you wanted a WAAS unit) Of course, actual
cost might still be lower since they sell 25 PDAs for every 1 Garmin
GPS.

> As far as interfacing for TIS display, I wonder for how much longer this
> will be a useful feature? Has anyone been able to confirm the reported
> plans to start turning down TIS sites? I'm not sure that I'd invest in
> a GTX330 at this point with TIS on its way out, but if you have one
> already, it's certainly a selling point.

This is the first I've heard of such rumors, though I'm not in the
know. Is the plan to replace TIS with ADS-B? I'm surprised to hear
something so (relatively) new going out so fast. We're still using
NDBs, ferchrissakes.

Still, this opens up a new front in the old game of, "what will Garmin
think of next?"

The only remaining thing the current technology would support would be
some kind of solid-state backup AI. Nice, but (1) serious liability
issues and (2) only of interest to IFR pilots, which is a much smaller
group than the current gizmos attract. I therefore bravely speculate
that we won't see this anytime soon.

The real big next step will be portable ADS-B. Traffic, terrain, and
weather, all in one unit. I'm guessing $5000 or so, and it would be a
steal even at that price.

-cwk.

Doug

July 8th 05, 04:06 PM

Man, I wonder if it will interface with my autopilot. My old King
KLN90B is not that reliable any more. I am wondering if I could chuck
it and get a 396. I don't do GPS approaches, but do use the King to
back up my ILS's and VORs and mostly use it on long trips with the
autopilot.

Darrel Toepfer

July 8th 05, 05:26 PM

Morgans wrote:

> I guess if you want to use the XM music output function, you will use one
> cable, to go to the intercom, or earphones.

Its probably loop through satellite feed to the XM Radio, thats how the
current XM Weather RX boxes work...

If the receiver is in the Garmin, then that alot of stuff packed in
there, plus another monthly subscription...

Darrel Toepfer

July 8th 05, 05:29 PM

Doug wrote:

> Man, I wonder if it will interface with my autopilot. My old King
> KLN90B is not that reliable any more. I am wondering if I could chuck
> it and get a 396. I don't do GPS approaches, but do use the King to
> back up my ILS's and VORs and mostly use it on long trips with the
> autopilot.

It has a USB output, that gets kinda cludgy converting to RS232 or
whatever you'd need to drive the AP...

Dan Luke

July 8th 05, 06:21 PM

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote:
>
> That equals at least 2 cables running from the GPS for full
> functionality.

I have two cables going to my yoke-mounted 296 now--power and remote GPS
antenna. With a little creative routing and some tie-wraps, you can
hardly tell they're there. One more wouldn't be a problem.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Jonathan Goodish

July 8th 05, 06:44 PM

In article >,
"Dan Luke" > wrote:
> > That equals at least 2 cables running from the GPS for full
> > functionality.
>
> I have two cables going to my yoke-mounted 296 now--power and remote GPS
> antenna. With a little creative routing and some tie-wraps, you can
> hardly tell they're there. One more wouldn't be a problem.

That's true, but the reply was targeted at the poster who suggested that
there would be less wires with the Garmin than with a PDA-based system.
In fact, the Garmin will require at least 2 wires to do what modern
Bluetooth-based PDA/TabletPCs can do with just one.

JKG

Morgans

July 8th 05, 10:18 PM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote

> Second, it is my understanding that the XM antenna only resides in the
> EXTERNAL "smart" antenna, which means if you want to use XM weather, you
> are required to use the external antenna. Plus one more cable.

Hmm, I didn't read it that way. I will go back and look again.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans

July 8th 05, 10:21 PM

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
.. .
> Morgans wrote:
>
> > I guess if you want to use the XM music output function, you will use
one
> > cable, to go to the intercom, or earphones.
>
> Its probably loop through satellite feed to the XM Radio, thats how the
> current XM Weather RX boxes work...
>
> If the receiver is in the Garmin, then that alot of stuff packed in
> there, plus another monthly subscription...

I think we are talking about two different things. I was talking about the
fact that while connected to XM for data, with a music subscription, you can
take a music feed from the 396 to you choice of listening connections.
--
Jim in NC

Jonathan Goodish

July 8th 05, 10:55 PM

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:

> "Jonathan Goodish" > wrote
>
> > Second, it is my understanding that the XM antenna only resides in the
> > EXTERNAL "smart" antenna, which means if you want to use XM weather, you
> > are required to use the external antenna. Plus one more cable.
>
> Hmm, I didn't read it that way. I will go back and look again.

It doesn't really matter, because even if the XM antenna is integrated
into the unit, it won't pick up much of an XM signal when it's mounted
on the yoke. You will have to have a remote antenna anyway.

JKG

Lakeview Bill

July 8th 05, 11:28 PM

It's also got two wires (serial?) for connecting to an autopilot.

And I know that because I downloaded the manual yesterday, almost as soon as
Garmin put it up.

There is a great deal of gloating in that last statement...

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> Doug wrote:
>
> > Man, I wonder if it will interface with my autopilot. My old King
> > KLN90B is not that reliable any more. I am wondering if I could chuck
> > it and get a 396. I don't do GPS approaches, but do use the King to
> > back up my ILS's and VORs and mostly use it on long trips with the
> > autopilot.
>
> It has a USB output, that gets kinda cludgy converting to RS232 or
> whatever you'd need to drive the AP...

Morgans

July 9th 05, 12:31 AM

"Morgans" > wrote

> Hmm, I didn't read it that way. I will go back and look again.

Ah, now I see it. The smart antenna is needed for XM reception, (included)
and it is 3 inches in diameter.
--
Jim in NC

Jonathan Goodish

July 9th 05, 01:09 AM

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:
> Ah, now I see it. The smart antenna is needed for XM reception, (included)
> and it is 3 inches in diameter.

It looks like a pretty interesting antenna, but one thing that I did
note: it has magnets in the base. If they're as strong as the GPS-10
magnets, they could create compass swing problems for folks. Not sure
how easy it will be to remove them, but it will likely void the warranty.

JKG

Morgans

July 9th 05, 01:43 AM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote

> It looks like a pretty interesting antenna, but one thing that I did
> note: it has magnets in the base. If they're as strong as the GPS-10
> magnets, they could create compass swing problems for folks. Not sure
> how easy it will be to remove them, but it will likely void the warranty.

Interesting, if true, that an aviation product would have magnets that do
not work on aluminum or composites, and might mess up navigational
instruments.

If they do, removing the magnets may void the warranty, but how much could
you mess up an assortment of wire and plastic. Not something I would lose
sleep about doing. <g>
--
Jim in NC

Jonathan Goodish

July 9th 05, 02:51 AM

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:
> Interesting, if true, that an aviation product would have magnets that do
> not work on aluminum or composites, and might mess up navigational
> instruments.
>
> If they do, removing the magnets may void the warranty, but how much could
> you mess up an assortment of wire and plastic. Not something I would lose
> sleep about doing. <g>

Well, I removed them from the GPS-10, and that was probably more
difficult than it will be to remove them from the 396 antenna, and it
wasn't all that difficult.

I suspect that there are magnets in the base for auto/marine use. There
were also magnets in the base of my XM antenna, but those were easy to
remove.

JKG

Newps

July 9th 05, 02:56 AM

wrote:

>
> It's been my impression that as serious capability upgrades are
> introduced to the PDA software, the hardware requirements grow with it.
> As a result, if you bought a PDA solution 3 years back, and wanted to
> upgrade the software now, wouldn't you find yourself upgrading the PDA
> too?

Yep, but a top of the line PDA today is $400. Your old one will fetch
$100-150 on ebay.

Darrel Toepfer

July 9th 05, 04:35 AM

Morgans wrote:

>>If the receiver is in the Garmin, then that alot of stuff packed in
>>there, plus another monthly subscription...
>
> I think we are talking about two different things. I was talking about the
> fact that while connected to XM for data, with a music subscription, you can
> take a music feed from the 396 to you choice of listening connections.

Reading the "quick reference" .pdf, you sir are correct, it has an
internal XM Radio receiver, however you'll need to turn off the XM
Weather to activate the receiver... So I wonder if they are tossing in
the XM Radio subscription for free with the weather package?

Accepts TIS traffic uploads from A GTX 330 transponder, uploads VHF
frequency data to a SL30/40 com, DSC Marine VHF connectivity, marine
Sonar connectivity (think amphib)... This unit is very k3wl indeed...

Richard Kaplan

July 9th 05, 04:42 AM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote >

>That's true, but the reply was targeted at the poster who suggested that
> there would be less wires with the Garmin than with a PDA-based system.
> In fact, the Garmin will require at least 2 wires to do what modern
> Bluetooth-based PDA/TabletPCs can do with just one.

Your PDA needs a GPS antenna, an XM Wx antenna, power to the weather
receiver, and either a power cable or batteries to the PDA. You also need
to manage the Bluetooth connection, a source of technical issues in flight.

The 396 does not need an externa GPS antenna, does not need separate power
to the weather receiver, and has no Bluetooth connection to manage.

The 396 also crossfeeds data from a Garmin 430/530 for those who own one.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Jonathan Goodish

July 9th 05, 01:55 PM

In article <1120880570.c77f078bd4ef02a28a9ba12c122515c0@terane ws>,
"Richard Kaplan" > wrote:
> Your PDA needs a GPS antenna, an XM Wx antenna, power to the weather
> receiver, and either a power cable or batteries to the PDA. You also need
> to manage the Bluetooth connection, a source of technical issues in flight.

I use a BT GPS and BT XM receiver, so the only power I need up front is
to the PDA, if I choose to power it from an external source. I have the
XM receiver on the hat shelf in back, so the power supplied to it is out
of the way. The important point is that BT enables elimination of USB
cables, which is huge. I have never had to "manage" the BT connection
on the PDA--it just works, all the time, every time.

> The 396 does not need an externa GPS antenna, does not need separate power
> to the weather receiver, and has no Bluetooth connection to manage.

The 396 does need an external antenna if you plan to receive XM weather.

> The 396 also crossfeeds data from a Garmin 430/530 for those who own one.

I'm not sure how this would be very useful. If I had a 430/530 and
wanted weather, I'd either consider the 396 or a PDA/TabletPC product as
a primary weather display.

JKG

Lakeview Bill

July 9th 05, 02:44 PM

"...however you'll need to turn off the XM Weather to activate the
receiver..."

Sorry, but that's not correct. Turning XM Weather on/off and using XM Radio
just happen to appear on the same page in the Quick Ref, but there is no
correlation between the two.

Obviously, you will need to leave the Map Page where the weather data is
displayed in order to go to the XM Audio Page. The XM Audio page is where
you select your channels, and it also has a Mute/Enable audio output
selection, which determines whether the radio is heard.

Once you have tuned the XM radio and Enabled audio output, the radio will
continue to play even if you leave the XM Audio page and return to the Map
Page to view the weather...

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
.. .
> Morgans wrote:
>
> >>If the receiver is in the Garmin, then that alot of stuff packed in
> >>there, plus another monthly subscription...
> >
> > I think we are talking about two different things. I was talking about
the
> > fact that while connected to XM for data, with a music subscription, you
can
> > take a music feed from the 396 to you choice of listening connections.
>
> Reading the "quick reference" .pdf, you sir are correct, it has an
> internal XM Radio receiver, however you'll need to turn off the XM
> Weather to activate the receiver... So I wonder if they are tossing in
> the XM Radio subscription for free with the weather package?
>
> Accepts TIS traffic uploads from A GTX 330 transponder, uploads VHF
> frequency data to a SL30/40 com, DSC Marine VHF connectivity, marine
> Sonar connectivity (think amphib)... This unit is very k3wl indeed...

Darrel Toepfer

July 9th 05, 03:31 PM

Lakeview Bill wrote:

> "...however you'll need to turn off the XM Weather to activate the
> receiver..."
>
> Sorry, but that's not correct. Turning XM Weather on/off and using XM Radio
> just happen to appear on the same page in the Quick Ref, but there is no
> correlation between the two.
>
> Obviously, you will need to leave the Map Page where the weather data is
> displayed in order to go to the XM Audio Page. The XM Audio page is where
> you select your channels, and it also has a Mute/Enable audio output
> selection, which determines whether the radio is heard.
>
> Once you have tuned the XM radio and Enabled audio output, the radio will
> continue to play even if you leave the XM Audio page and return to the Map
> Page to view the weather...

Thanks for the correction... And at the bottom of the page it mentions
seperate subscriptions for Music and Weather...

The PDF for the GXM30 antenna shows some additional screen shots...

Richard Kaplan

July 9th 05, 06:46 PM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote in message

> to the PDA, if I choose to power it from an external source. I have the
> XM receiver on the hat shelf in back, so the power supplied to it is out

That is the point... there are only "less cables" with a PDA setup if you
ignore the presence and power needs and size of the XM receiver. I suppose
your rationale does indeed make sense if you use the PDA weather system only
in one plane (presumably which you own) and if you somehow run a permanent
power cable to the XM receiver (which is certainly doable though awkward).

For the market of renter pilots -- which is quite substantial -- a 396 is
much more convenient logistically than a PDA solution.

> I'm not sure how this would be very useful. If I had a 430/530 and
> wanted weather, I'd either consider the 396 or a PDA/TabletPC product as

Connecting a 430/530 to a Garmin portable GPS is immensely useful although
under-recognized as an available feature. The 430/530 provides output only
to the portable GPS; flight plans and active waypoints are transferred.
This means for example that the 396 would depict the current and flight
planned route with no extra pilot workload, thus showing the pilot if his
route will pass through weather. The same is true for comparing a planned
route with terrain. The same is true for depicting an instrument approach
on top of terrain. Additionally the portable GPS can be configured for more
information fields than can fit on just a 430/530, i.e. more ways to depict
ETA, bearing, vertical nav info, etc., etc. The Garmin portable GPS units
also have vertical navigation abilities superior to any PDA, which can be
quite helpful in an emergency. And finally in the event of a total
electrical failure the portable GPS already has the current flight planned
route in its memory with no extra work required of the pilot, making the
electrical failure almost a non-event.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan

July 9th 05, 06:47 PM

The 396 manual is now available on Garmin's website and it contains lots of
screen pictures.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Jonathan Goodish

July 9th 05, 07:22 PM

In article <1120931190.ee355d9085f8aa3f59c909d62c3c862e@terane ws>,
"Richard Kaplan" > wrote:
> That is the point... there are only "less cables" with a PDA setup if you
> ignore the presence and power needs and size of the XM receiver. I suppose
> your rationale does indeed make sense if you use the PDA weather system only
> in one plane (presumably which you own) and if you somehow run a permanent
> power cable to the XM receiver (which is certainly doable though awkward).
>
> For the market of renter pilots -- which is quite substantial -- a 396 is
> much more convenient logistically than a PDA solution.

For a portable weather system--no question about it. However, if you're
an aircraft owner and never move the weather system, it's a moot point.
There's nothing difficult about mounting the XM receiver remotely and
providing power to it. It becomes more difficult if you plan to use it
as a "portable" weather system.

> on top of terrain. Additionally the portable GPS can be configured for more
> information fields than can fit on just a 430/530, i.e. more ways to depict
> ETA, bearing, vertical nav info, etc., etc. The Garmin portable GPS units
> also have vertical navigation abilities superior to any PDA, which can be
> quite helpful in an emergency. And finally in the event of a total
> electrical failure the portable GPS already has the current flight planned
> route in its memory with no extra work required of the pilot, making the
> electrical failure almost a non-event.

None of this is relevant for renter pilots. If I'm considering a 396
primarily for weather, why wouldn't I use a small TabletPC, which has a
superior display and orientation compared with the 396, and WxWorx on
Wings software, which provides a superior weather display? Throw a
small Bluetooth GPS on the glare shield and you can see where you are in
relation to the weather. Entering a flight plan into a Tablet or PDA
isn't a big deal, and I probably wouldn't hesitate to use the Tablet or
PDA for primary enroute navigation if I had a panel mount that wasn't
doing anything other than navigation anyway.

As for vertical navigation abilities, I'm not exactly sure what you're
referring to that would make a Garmin handheld "superior." I would
think that all of the data relevant for VNAV would be provided by the
GPS, so if I'm using a PDA or TabletPC slaved to a Garmin GPS, I'm not
sure how that would be much different for VNAV guidance than using a
Garmin portable--unless you're referring to specific software features
in the Garmin.

I'm not saying there aren't advantages to the Garmin portables, but if I
had an IFR panel mount, I'm not sure that I'd run out and drop $2500 on
a Garmin portable just so that it can sync my flight plan. If I was a
renter pilot, the 396 would be an ideal system due to its easy
portability. If I was an owner serious about certified weather uplink
and features not available on the 430/530, I think I'd investigate
selling the 430/530 and buying another certified system that can better
serve my needs.

That all being said, if I was considering the purchase of a portable
GPS/weather system today, irrespective of what's in my panel, I would
have to seriously consider the 396--I might even run out and buy it.
However, I resisted buying the 296 and its predecessors due to the lousy
screens and poor "landscape" screen orientation. I still have my GPSMAP
195, and it is still a fantastic GPS after all these years, but it has
no obstacles, terrain, or weather capability, so it has been relegated
to storage.

JKG

Richard Kaplan

July 9th 05, 11:06 PM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote

> For a portable weather system--no question about it. However, if you're
> an aircraft owner and never move the weather system, it's a moot point.

Less significant, yes. Moot, no. It is still a piece of equipment which
needs either a quasi-permanent power connection to ship's power or else
regular recharging or replacing of batteries.

> None of this is relevant for renter pilots. If I'm considering a 396
> primarily for weather, why wouldn't I use a small TabletPC, which has a
> superior display and orientation compared with the 396, and WxWorx on
> Wings software, which provides a superior weather display? Throw a
> small Bluetooth GPS on the glare shield and you can see where you are in

It is relevant to renter pilots in particular because it is by far the
easiest way to put both GPS navigation and weather in a rental airplane.
Sure you can set up an XM receiver, Bluetooth GPS, and PDA whenever you rent
a plane, but that is a lot more work then plugging in a 396

> relation to the weather. Entering a flight plan into a Tablet or PDA
> isn't a big deal

Yes it is if you are talking about an IFR situation when you need to enter
flight plan or navaid info into panel-mount IFR equipment and then duplicate
it in a portable GPS and then reprogram both when you receive changes in
routings or approach clearances enroute. For VFR flight this is not a huge
issue; for IFR flight the convenience from the crossfed data is HUGE.

> and I probably wouldn't hesitate to use the Tablet or
> PDA for primary enroute navigation if I had a panel mount that wasn't
> doing anything other than navigation anyway.

That is fine for VFR but not IFR.

> sure how that would be much different for VNAV guidance than using a
> Garmin portable--unless you're referring to specific software features
> in the Garmin.

Yes, I am referring to the "Vertical Speed to Target" feature of the Garmin
portables (and some Lowrance units as well). This is a highly desirable
feature for executing a deadstick landing when VFR or especially IFR or at
night.

> I'm not saying there aren't advantages to the Garmin portables, but if I
> had an IFR panel mount, I'm not sure that I'd run out and drop $2500 on
> a Garmin portable just so that it can sync my flight plan.

If you had a Garmin 430 or 530 in your panel, it would be downright silly
not to add a Garmin portable GPS given the advantages it offers.. it could
be any portable model since the 195. Once it is a given that you add a
Garmin portable, then it does not make much sense to have a Garmin portable
GPS for backup nav and a separate portable weather system. The realistic
options at that point are either a Garmin 396 or else an older Garmin
portable GPS plus panel-mount weather.

> renter pilot, the 396 would be an ideal system due to its easy
> portability. If I was an owner serious about certified weather uplink
> and features not available on the 430/530, I think I'd investigate
> selling the 430/530 and buying another certified system that can better
> serve my needs.

There is no such thing as certified weather uplink -- it is easier panel or
portable.

Weather on the 430/530 themselves are marginal.

The apparent best IFR panel weather datalink options at this point are
either a Garmin 430/530 coupled to panel-mount EX500 multi-function display
for weather (an expensive option) or else a Garmin 430 coupled to a 396
portable for weather and terrain.

> no obstacles, terrain, or weather capability, so it has been relegated
> to storage.

That is one of the key points... the terrain feature of the 296 is
stupendous and ought to be considered the Product of the Year -- in many
ways its terrain implementation is superior to that on much more expensive
panel solutions such as an MX20 or an EX500.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Jonathan Goodish

July 9th 05, 11:59 PM

In article <1120946772.bdcbdac7353f6e551facbb6a46d64e8a@terane ws>,
"Richard Kaplan" > wrote:
> > For a portable weather system--no question about it. However, if you're
> > an aircraft owner and never move the weather system, it's a moot point.
>
> Less significant, yes. Moot, no. It is still a piece of equipment which
> needs either a quasi-permanent power connection to ship's power or else
> regular recharging or replacing of batteries.

How is this any different than the Garmin 396? As far as I see it, it
isn't much different from the pilot's perspective. It's fairly painless
to practice some basic cable management and power becomes a non-issue.

> It is relevant to renter pilots in particular because it is by far the
> easiest way to put both GPS navigation and weather in a rental airplane.
> Sure you can set up an XM receiver, Bluetooth GPS, and PDA whenever you rent
> a plane, but that is a lot more work then plugging in a 396.

I'm not disputing that, but in this section, I was responding to your
comments regarding integration with the 430/530. I doubt that many
airplanes in the rental fleet will have the interface available for that
type of integration.

> Yes it is if you are talking about an IFR situation when you need to enter
> flight plan or navaid info into panel-mount IFR equipment and then duplicate
> it in a portable GPS and then reprogram both when you receive changes in
> routings or approach clearances enroute. For VFR flight this is not a huge
> issue; for IFR flight the convenience from the crossfed data is HUGE.

In my experience, entering a flight plan in a PDA or TabletPC is easier
than with the Garmin units. I have over 20 hours of IFR flight on the
PDA system, and I've had to change flight plans, but it's no big deal
because I have a keyboard at my fingertips. Would it be nice to do it
once a push a button, sure, but I doubt that most users of the 396 will
interface it with a 430/530.

> > and I probably wouldn't hesitate to use the Tablet or
> > PDA for primary enroute navigation if I had a panel mount that wasn't
> > doing anything other than navigation anyway.
>
> That is fine for VFR but not IFR.

Not sure why it isn't fine for IFR. It's perfectly safe and it's legal
enroute if you are in a radar environment.

> Yes, I am referring to the "Vertical Speed to Target" feature of the Garmin
> portables (and some Lowrance units as well). This is a highly desirable
> feature for executing a deadstick landing when VFR or especially IFR or at
> night.

Not sure how this works exactly, but there are software packages that
offer similar types of emergency glide features for other systems.

> > renter pilot, the 396 would be an ideal system due to its easy
> > portability. If I was an owner serious about certified weather uplink
> > and features not available on the 430/530, I think I'd investigate
> > selling the 430/530 and buying another certified system that can better
> > serve my needs.
>
> There is no such thing as certified weather uplink -- it is easier panel or
> portable.

I was referring to weather uplink to a certified panel-mount GPS.

> That is one of the key points... the terrain feature of the 296 is
> stupendous and ought to be considered the Product of the Year -- in many
> ways its terrain implementation is superior to that on much more expensive
> panel solutions such as an MX20 or an EX500.

Maybe, but I still contend that the landscape display orientation of the
296/396 and some units before them is less-than-ideal. The display
resolution itself really isn't that nice either. Other software vendors
have better terrain features, but I guess some folks just like to see
"Garmin" on their navigation equipment.

I'm not arguing that the 396 is a bad unit; quite to the contrary, it
looks like a great unit. I just don't think that it is going to "kill
off" all of the PDA/TabletPC competitors like some folks seem to
suggest. For example, WxWorx appeals to a wide audience and provides
capability that the 396 can't match, as does Control Vision's product.
There are plenty of others out there who may find their systems a hard
sell over the 396, though.

JKG

Ryan Ferguson

July 10th 05, 01:19 AM

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

> I'm not arguing that the 396 is a bad unit; quite to the contrary, it
> looks like a great unit. I just don't think that it is going to "kill
> off" all of the PDA/TabletPC competitors like some folks seem to
> suggest. For example, WxWorx appeals to a wide audience and provides
> capability that the 396 can't match, as does Control Vision's product.
> There are plenty of others out there who may find their systems a hard
> sell over the 396, though.

Not trying to pick sides or gang up on anyone, but I agree with most
every point Richard Kaplan made in your discussion. And I also agree
the impact on the PDA weather/GPS market is going to be, NO DOUBT ABOUT
IT, HUGE! This is the box GA pilots want. I'd argue that the majority
of pilots, by far, are not techie gearheads who want to futz with
configuration issues, deal with Bluetooth, a stylus, a rat's nest of
wires, etc. They want something that works, PERIOD, and that is why
it's so desirable to see "Garmin" on the box.

I've avoided CV's products for all of the issues Richard mentioned, and
I am excited to be getting my hands on a 396 just as soon as I can.
I've heard more than a few comments to this effect, including current
and former CV customers looking to make the switch. Garmin's going to
make a few (big) waves, no doubt.

-Ryan

Jonathan Goodish

July 10th 05, 02:40 AM

In article >,
Ryan Ferguson > wrote:
> Not trying to pick sides or gang up on anyone, but I agree with most
> every point Richard Kaplan made in your discussion. And I also agree
> the impact on the PDA weather/GPS market is going to be, NO DOUBT ABOUT
> IT, HUGE! This is the box GA pilots want. I'd argue that the majority
> of pilots, by far, are not techie gearheads who want to futz with
> configuration issues, deal with Bluetooth, a stylus, a rat's nest of
> wires, etc. They want something that works, PERIOD, and that is why
> it's so desirable to see "Garmin" on the box.

I am amazed that folks are predicting that the 396 is going to be the
holy grail of handhelds when, to my knowledge, no one so far in this
thread has touched one.

Secondly, the configuration issues that Richard speaks of are overblown
in my experience. He has continued to reiterate his own points, which
is fine, but some of them I've refuted. I do have a PDA system with XM
weather and I NEVER have to touch Bluetooth configuration or "manage"
the Bluetooth connections. Things may be different on a TabletPC, or
for those trying to do other things with their PDAs, but out of the box
they seem pretty much plug-and-play to me. They obviously aren't as
integrated as the 396, but that has both advantages and disadvantages.
Many of the XM problems reported by CV and WxWorx on Wings users seem
related to XM, so there is no guarantee that Garmin's users won't
experience them too.

The entire discussion began when Richard suggested that the 396 would
have less wires running to it than a PDA. With a Bluetooth capable PDA,
a Bluetooth GPS, and Bluetooth XM receiver, that assertion is false. I
simply stated that and then things started to snowball.

I am not anti-Garmin. I do like Garmin's products, and I presently own
and use two Garmin GPS units regularly. However, contrary to popular
belief, Garmin's products are computers and their software does have
bugs. Also, before I'm ready to declare that the 396 solves world
hunger, I'd like to see it or at least hear from those who have seen it
and used it. I suspect that we will have many hands-on reports posted
in a couple of weeks, after Oshkosh.

> I've avoided CV's products for all of the issues Richard mentioned, and
> I am excited to be getting my hands on a 396 just as soon as I can.
> I've heard more than a few comments to this effect, including current
> and former CV customers looking to make the switch. Garmin's going to
> make a few (big) waves, no doubt.

What issues did Rich mention about CV's products? In fact, I didn't see
any negative comments or issues reported about CV's products in this
thread. What am I missing?

JKG

Jonathan Goodish

July 10th 05, 03:18 AM

In article >,
Jonathan Goodish > wrote:
> The entire discussion began when Richard suggested that the 396 would
> have less wires running to it than a PDA. With a Bluetooth capable PDA,
> a Bluetooth GPS, and Bluetooth XM receiver, that assertion is false. I
> simply stated that and then things started to snowball.

I do need to be fair by saying that I value Richard Kaplan's opinion
highly, even when I don't agree with it. In this case, it is my opinion
that Richard and others are relatively caught up in the hype surrounding
a new product that looks very promising. I will be very interested to
hear user reports once they start coming in, but until then, I'd rather
not try to sell a product that hasn't shipped yet.

JKG

Dan Luke

July 10th 05, 04:19 AM

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote:
> I will be very interested to
> hear user reports once they start coming in, but until then, I'd
> rather
> not try to sell a product that hasn't shipped yet.

I agree. This appears to be exactly the GPS/wx solution I've been
looking for, but at $2,495 list it's too pricey to tempt me until I've
heard what the early adopters say.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Richard Kaplan

July 10th 05, 04:58 AM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote

> How is this any different than the Garmin 396? As far as I see it, it
> isn't much different from the pilot's perspective.

It is quite a bit different. The 396 can be charged in advance and thus
does not require ship's power at all. There is a grand total of one
required cable for the 396 and that is the cable from the smart antenna to
the GPS. That is a complete non-issue in even an rental plane.

>It's fairly painless
> to practice some basic cable management and power becomes a non-issue.

Doable? Yes. Painless? No.

It is not painless for someone who rents a plane and has to run cables every
time he rents the plae.

> I'm not disputing that, but in this section, I was responding to your
> comments regarding integration with the 430/530.
>I doubt that many
> airplanes in the rental fleet will have the interface available for that
> type of integration.

Absolutely agreed. I am simply showing the advantages of the 396 to both
renter and owner pilots.

> In my experience, entering a flight plan in a PDA or TabletPC is easier
> than with the Garmin units.

Definitely not. Turning knobs on a panel-mount is much less time-consuming
than pressing buttons to scroll through the alphabet.

Besides, for IFR presumably the PDA will be a backup but not the primary nav
source so any way you look at it you will have to duplicate your flight plan
entries -- such duplication is very much undesirable when busy with other
things in IMC.

> PDA system, and I've had to change flight plans, but it's no big deal
> because I have a keyboard at my fingertips.

It is a nuisance to have to change flight plans on both your primary and
backup nav sources - that is highly undesirable.

> Would it be nice to do it
> once a push a button, sure, but I doubt that most users of the 396 will
> interface it with a 430/530.

Well the 430/530 are extremely popular. It is hard for me to imagine why a
430/530 owner would choose a portable GPS model that will not interface with
the 430/530. The parts/labor to interface the 430/530 to the 396 cost
perhaps 2% of the total cost of the 430/530 installation. I am not saying
all 430/530 owners need a 396 but it is inconceivable to me for someone to
install such an IFR GPS and then not be willing to pay $400 for a used 195
and $150 to an avionics shop to interface the two. That is a bargain if
ever I saw one in aviation.

> Not sure why it isn't fine for IFR. It's perfectly safe and it's legal
> enroute if you are in a radar environment.

It is indeed legal in a radar environment. But it is not legal on an
approach. And it is also a good idea to be prepared at any time with Plan B
if radar services are terminated. At that point IFR certified panel
avionics are required.

> Not sure how this works exactly, but there are software packages that
> offer similar types of emergency glide features for other systems.

Lowrance has similar VNAV on its high-end models. The Chelton glass EFIS
system has superior VNAV capabilities. There is no other general aviation
system available at any price that is as capable as Garmin VNAV in the event
of an engine-out emergency.

> Maybe, but I still contend that the landscape display orientation of the
> 296/396 and some units before them is less-than-ideal. The display
> resolution itself really isn't that nice either. Other software vendors
> have better terrain features, but I guess some folks just like to see
> "Garmin" on their navigation equipment.

I do not know of any other software vendor with a better terrain feature
than Garmin on a portable unit. Terrain warnings on a 296 are actually
substantially superior to even panel-mount terrain features on an MX20 or
EX500. But again, the VNAV feature of the Garmin portable GPS is so good as
to make the point moot. Lowrance is just about the only competition to
Garmin.

> I'm not arguing that the 396 is a bad unit; quite to the contrary, it
> looks like a great unit. I just don't think that it is going to "kill
> off" all of the PDA/TabletPC competitors like some folks seem to
> suggest.

You are correct that the competition you mention will continue. But that
will only be the case because of customers who are highly price-sensitive or
who perhaps are not aware in detail of the features discussed above. Anyone
with any concern at all about handling an engine-out failure would choose a
Garmin handheld hands-down.

>For example, WxWorx appeals to a wide audience and provides
> capability that the 396 can't match

What features can the 396 not match? The only ones I can think of are
point-and-click echo tops and radar intensity made possible by a mouse or
tablet interface; the other features I mentioned more than balance that out.

>as does Control Vision's product.

Control Visions's "Cones of Safety" feature is nice indeed. But it only
tells you where you can glide; it does not tell you HOW to glide there, i.e.
how fast, as the Garmin portables do.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan

July 10th 05, 05:03 AM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote in message

> I will be very interested to
> hear user reports once they start coming in, but until then, I'd rather
> not try to sell a product that hasn't shipped yet.

That is an excellent point. It could well be that when it arrives the smart
antenna is too big to be practical or that the screen is to small to view
the wealth of available information.

On the other hand, Garmin used portable GPS receivers have always held their
value well on the used market. A great feature of portable avionics is that
if you do not like them there is no cost to uninstall them from your
airplane. The risk is not too great to buy a 396 and then sell it used on
Ebay if you do not like it; availability will probably be so tight initially
that the economic risk to doing so will be minimal.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan

July 10th 05, 05:13 AM

Jonathan Goodish

July 10th 05, 01:32 PM

In article <1120968238.3ff1e0afbbb3cd058381c5a3d8350c74@terane ws>,
"Richard Kaplan" > wrote:
> That is an excellent point. It could well be that when it arrives the smart
> antenna is too big to be practical or that the screen is to small to view
> the wealth of available information.

The display is my primary concern. Why would I buy this device,
portability aside, for a primary weather display when the display itself
is lousy?

I am particularly interested to hear how the 396 handles the XM issues
that folks have reported with WxWorx on Wings and other products. I
haven't experienced them myself (knock on wood), but they seem to be
inherent in the XM delivery system, so I doubt that Garmin will be able
to work around them.

JKG

Jonathan Goodish

July 10th 05, 01:48 PM

In article <1120968814.beb91d06ff252e3408ac55cbbe854c5c@terane ws>,
"Richard Kaplan" > wrote:
> It is quite a bit different. The 396 can be charged in advance and thus
> does not require ship's power at all. There is a grand total of one
> required cable for the 396 and that is the cable from the smart antenna to
> the GPS. That is a complete non-issue in even an rental plane.

Well, a PDA/TabletPC and BT GPS can be charged in advance also,
requiring a grand total of zero cables. If I were to have an alternator
failure, continuation into or in close proximity to severe weather
wouldn't be of interest to me, so losing weather information wouldn't be
critical. Even so, there are simple work-around to relying on ship's
power. These problems aren't rocket science, and they don't require an
engineering degree to solve. For a truly portable system, there is no
doubt that the 396 is a winner over competing solutions.

I am going to avoid the remainder of your nit-picking by reiterating my
two main points, which may not have been super-obvious until now:

1--The 396 hasn't shipped yet, so no one knows how, or how well, it will
work.

2--We do know that the 396 has a small and rather unimpressive display
based on the specifications. Compared to a TabletPC or even a modern
PDA, I'm not sure how much of a weather picture you're going to get on a
3.7" display at QVGA resolution. When comparing it to WxWorx running on
a TabletPC, I'm not sure how good it's really going to be for those
folks looking for a primary weather display.

JKG

Ryan Ferguson

July 10th 05, 01:54 PM

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

> I am amazed that folks are predicting that the 396 is going to be the
> holy grail of handhelds when, to my knowledge, no one so far in this
> thread has touched one.

That is always possible. But, all of Garmin's recent (last five years?)
products to date have been hits. The 430/530 - everyone loves 'em. The
195 - a trailblazer. 295 - I still have mine and it works great. 196
- first GPS with a small "partial panel" display (and it works.)
Everyone loved it. 296 - terrain + weather, lithium ion batteries,
great unit size/display ratio. Another hit. Now the 396. Honestly,
who'd bet against Garmin? Give it a couple of months and I think you'll
see the unit lives up to the hype (which is user, not company generated.)

> Secondly, the configuration issues that Richard speaks of are overblown
> in my experience. He has continued to reiterate his own points, which
> is fine, but some of them I've refuted. I do have a PDA system with XM
> weather and I NEVER have to touch Bluetooth configuration or "manage"
> the Bluetooth connections. Things may be different on a TabletPC, or
> for those trying to do other things with their PDAs, but out of the box
> they seem pretty much plug-and-play to me. They obviously aren't as
> integrated as the 396, but that has both advantages and disadvantages.
> Many of the XM problems reported by CV and WxWorx on Wings users seem
> related to XM, so there is no guarantee that Garmin's users won't
> experience them too.

Well, I'm not a total stranger to PDA solutions, or AnywhereMap/WX for
that matter. Fact is, this is a piece of software which cannot ever
hope to approach Garmin's reliability. We were discussing the 396 on
another forum, and one user stated that after the last time her AWM
"crapped out," she didn't bother to reload it and simply used the GPS in
her car for land navigation. I have used PDAs for years, including in
the cockpit, and even when I was happy with my cost-effective Palm VIIx
+ Palm.net + CBAV, I knew it was a less-than-ideal solution. The
extremely low cost of entry and tiny monthly fees made it worth it.

The PDA can be a useful tool, but clearly, it is not made for aviation
use. It can be hacked into doing so, but it will never be ideal, for
many obvious reasons. The interface is just not optimized for use
in-flight, in the cockpit.

> The entire discussion began when Richard suggested that the 396 would
> have less wires running to it than a PDA. With a Bluetooth capable PDA,
> a Bluetooth GPS, and Bluetooth XM receiver, that assertion is false. I
> simply stated that and then things started to snowball.

(Shrug) You could bluetooth it, but I agree with Richard. It's a
hassle, not to mention expensive. I've used Bluetooth devices before
and you're often limited by proper positioning of the devices in
relation to each other, configuration issues (glad you don't have them,
but many others do) and all kinds of other headaches which I simply no
longer have the patience to deal with. The 396 can operate with as
little as one external cable connection. The lithium ion battery, if
proven to be as effective as it has been in the 296, will provide more
than enough juice for flights of medium to long duration. Your
bluetooth setup is not typical; most folks are dealing with a lot of
wires in the cockpit for AWM/Wx. This is proven true by the fact that
excess cables are perhaps one of the top two complaints about the
cobbled-together AWM setup.

> I am not anti-Garmin. I do like Garmin's products, and I presently own
> and use two Garmin GPS units regularly. However, contrary to popular
> belief, Garmin's products are computers and their software does have
> bugs. Also, before I'm ready to declare that the 396 solves world
> hunger, I'd like to see it or at least hear from those who have seen it
> and used it. I suspect that we will have many hands-on reports posted
> in a couple of weeks, after Oshkosh.

The difference is, these 'computers' are both DESIGNED and BUILT by
Garmin specifically for aviation functions. While it would be
inaccurate to say that their past products have been totally bug-free,
those bugs have been of the "minor" variety and quickly fixed with
revisions readily available from Garmin's website. Bugs are easy to fix
when all of the products are identical to each other; not so when you're
patching software which can run on many different PDAs.

The 396 may not solve world hunger, but I suspect it'll solve the GA
world's "hunger" for a portable weather solution which is reliable,
transportable, and cost-effective.

> What issues did Rich mention about CV's products? In fact, I didn't see
> any negative comments or issues reported about CV's products in this
> thread. What am I missing?

I am surprised you need me to recount this for you. Whether they're
"negative" or not is in the eye of the beholder, but here you go:

"Your PDA needs a GPS antenna, an XM Wx antenna, power to the weather
receiver, and either a power cable or batteries to the PDA. You also
need to manage the Bluetooth connection, a source of technical issues in
flight."

"For the market of renter pilots -- which is quite substantial -- a 396
is much more convenient logistically than a PDA solution."

"The Garmin portable GPS units also have vertical navigation abilities
superior to any PDA, which can be quite helpful in an emergency."

"It is relevant to renter pilots in particular because it is by far the
easiest way to put both GPS navigation and weather in a rental airplane.
Sure you can set up an XM receiver, Bluetooth GPS, and PDA whenever you
rent a plane, but that is a lot more work then plugging in a 396."

Best regards,

-Ryan

Dan Luke

July 10th 05, 02:23 PM

"Ryan Ferguson" wrote:

> That is always possible. But, all of Garmin's recent (last five
> years?) products to date have been hits. The 430/530 - everyone loves
> 'em. The 195 - a trailblazer. 295 - I still have mine and it works
> great. 196 - first GPS with a small "partial panel" display (and it
> works.) Everyone loved it. 296 - terrain + weather, lithium ion
> batteries, great unit size/display ratio. Another hit.

Don't forget the GPS III Pilot, one of the greatest little gizmos of any
kind I've ever owned.

[snip]

> The 396 may not solve world hunger, but I suspect it'll solve the GA
> world's "hunger" for a portable weather solution which is reliable,
> transportable, and cost-effective.

Yep; that's the bottom line. It doesn't take a crystal ball to predict
this thing will be a hit.

Garmin is scary; it's got to be tough to be one of their competitors.
I'd sure like to know what their mfr.'s gross margin per unit is for the
396.

[snip]

So, Ryan: ya' ordered one yet?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Jonathan Goodish

July 10th 05, 02:32 PM

In article >,
Ryan Ferguson > wrote:
> That is always possible. But, all of Garmin's recent (last five years?)
> products to date have been hits. The 430/530 - everyone loves 'em. The
> 195 - a trailblazer. 295 - I still have mine and it works great. 196
> - first GPS with a small "partial panel" display (and it works.)
> Everyone loved it. 296 - terrain + weather, lithium ion batteries,
> great unit size/display ratio. Another hit. Now the 396. Honestly,
> who'd bet against Garmin? Give it a couple of months and I think you'll
> see the unit lives up to the hype (which is user, not company generated.)

I think that you're being disingenuous here. I know plenty of folks who
aren't happy with the position they're now in with their 430s, for
example. I can give you plenty of example from years ago when I wasn't
completely satisfied with my Garmin products, because it was obvious
that Garmin did not intend to provide feature upgrades at a reasonable
price (in the portable market, this equated to a forklift upgrade for
Garmin products--how convenient.)

I continue to be amazed at the perception that Garmin's units don't run
software or run on some kind of operating system. Garmin's units do run
software, and that software has bugs. I really don't hear that many
folks complaining about their AWM system "crapping out" anymore, but I'm
only a fairly recent user. And I have found modern Bluetooth systems to
be very reliable, without having to "mess with" or "manage" anything. I
really don't understand where all of the alarming hype is coming from
surrounding these systems. I will admit that they aren't "one-touch"
systems and it does help to have an understanding of how they work, but
that's true for operating an aircraft as well.

There is still the perception that Honda and Toyota make the best cars,
but that isn't necessarily true anymore. Nevertheless, millions buy
them based on that perception, and will sing their praises despite the
fact that they have sometimes serious mechanical problems (I once had a
Honda owner tell me that a failed brake master cylinder that cost $800
to replace was "just a minor maintenance issue.") I would rather deal
with actual facts of user experience, rather than the marketing hype.
Right now, I can find user experience both positive and negative for all
products, including Garmin's.

JKG

Ryan Ferguson

July 10th 05, 02:35 PM

Dan Luke wrote:

> Don't forget the GPS III Pilot, one of the greatest little gizmos of any
> kind I've ever owned.

HECK yeah! I have one, too. When I deliver helicopters or the
occasional small taildragger, I take the Pilot III. Total functionality
in the palm of your hand.

> Yep; that's the bottom line. It doesn't take a crystal ball to predict
> this thing will be a hit.
>
> Garmin is scary; it's got to be tough to be one of their competitors.
> I'd sure like to know what their mfr.'s gross margin per unit is for the
> 396.

Tough, indeed. They're the 900 lb. gorilla in this market, for sure.
And all of their customers are happy. It's their game to lose.

> So, Ryan: ya' ordered one yet?

Not yet, but I will very soon!

How's all by ya? Sorry about the storm we sent your way.

-Ryan

Dan Luke

July 10th 05, 03:15 PM

"Ryan Ferguson" wrote:

> How's all by ya? Sorry about the storm we sent your way.
>

Dennis is even scarier than Garmin! This is a real bad one. It
currently has the 6th lowest central pressure on record.

Right now (9:10am CDT) it's about 15G25 at my house with light rain.
The place is battened down and the generator's ready to go. I'm going
to keep posting in the other thread until the DSL goes down.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Mike Rapoport

July 10th 05, 04:59 PM

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
news:1120967916.6c71a0a50cbfd93a86a5195829904909@t eranews...
> Well the 430/530 are extremely popular. It is hard for me to imagine why
> a 430/530 owner would choose a portable GPS model that will not interface
> with the 430/530. The parts/labor to interface the 430/530 to the 396
> cost perhaps 2% of the total cost of the 430/530 installation. I am not
> saying all 430/530 owners need a 396 but it is inconceivable to me for
> someone to install such an IFR GPS and then not be willing to pay $400 for
> a used 195 and $150 to an avionics shop to interface the two. That is a
> bargain if ever I saw one in aviation.
> --------------------
> Richard Kaplan
>
> www.flyimc.com
>
I have never heard of interfacing a 195 to a 530. What information is
shared?

Mike
MU-2

Jeremy Lew

July 10th 05, 07:31 PM

I was doing a little reading about this, since my club plane actually has a
430 and 195 but I've never bothered to hook them up.

This is from the 195 manual, and applies to all subsequent 19x, 29x units as
well:

"Aviation In/No Out is a proprietary interface for connection to a GARMIN
panel-mounted GPS receiver. With this selection, and a two-wire connection
to the panel-mounted GPS receiver, any GOTO or route selection is
automatically displayed on the GPSMAP 195. This eliminates the need to
enter the data into both units."

Interestingly, the 396 manual claims that the 396 can display, in addition
to XM Weather, information from the following external devices:

- TIS (traffic) alerts from Mode S transponders
- Sonar plots from the garmin sonar products (for use in Marine mode,
obviously)
- DGPS (I've never heard of this before, but apparently it's a technology
similar to WAAS for marine use)

And, the 396 can also apparently push VHF COMM frequencies to SL30 and SL40
radios.

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
> news:1120967916.6c71a0a50cbfd93a86a5195829904909@t eranews...
>> Well the 430/530 are extremely popular. It is hard for me to imagine why
>> a 430/530 owner would choose a portable GPS model that will not interface
>> with the 430/530. The parts/labor to interface the 430/530 to the 396
>> cost perhaps 2% of the total cost of the 430/530 installation. I am not
>> saying all 430/530 owners need a 396 but it is inconceivable to me for
>> someone to install such an IFR GPS and then not be willing to pay $400
>> for a used 195 and $150 to an avionics shop to interface the two. That
>> is a bargain if ever I saw one in aviation.
>> --------------------
>> Richard Kaplan
>>
>> www.flyimc.com
>>
> I have never heard of interfacing a 195 to a 530. What information is
> shared?
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>

Andrew Gideon

July 10th 05, 09:49 PM

Jay Beckman wrote:

> Him: "Point the nose that way ... keep pointing the nose that way until
> you get there."

Tsk. Homing.

<laugh>

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon

July 10th 05, 09:51 PM

jsmith wrote:

> If there is marriage in your future, you had better buy everything you
> want NOW!

If she brings up the subject of marriage, as for her website URL. Tell her
you'll be spending two weeks...

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon

July 10th 05, 09:54 PM

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

> That all being said, Garmin produces a very good, polished navigation
> system that is hard to beat--in my opinion, none of the PDA-based
> software products does navigation as cleanly.

That's true, but I still want a feature available via the PDA route and not
via the Garmin route: a backup AI. But then I fly club airplanes with 430s
installed, so when I think "handheld GPS" I'm thinking "backup"...and I
want as much backup as possible.

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon

July 10th 05, 09:55 PM

Richard Kaplan wrote:

> ButÂ*aÂ*lotÂ*ofÂ*pilotsÂ*doÂ*notÂ*like
> kneeboards, no less equipment on their knees.

And those that are willing to use kneeboards use kneeboards. Admittedly, we
usually have second knees...

- Andrew

Jonathan Goodish

July 10th 05, 10:18 PM

In article ne.com>,
Andrew Gideon > wrote:
> > That all being said, Garmin produces a very good, polished navigation
> > system that is hard to beat--in my opinion, none of the PDA-based
> > software products does navigation as cleanly.
>
> That's true, but I still want a feature available via the PDA route and not
> via the Garmin route: a backup AI. But then I fly club airplanes with 430s
> installed, so when I think "handheld GPS" I'm thinking "backup"...and I
> want as much backup as possible.

Honestly, if I had a 430/530 or other approach-certified GPS in my
panel, I don't know that I'd even invest in a hand held GPS. It might
be very nice to have your Garmin 396 interfaced with your 430/530,
GTX330, and SL30/SL40, but at some point I think the gadgetry reaches
the point of diminishing returns.

JKG

john smith

July 11th 05, 12:35 AM

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
> Honestly, if I had a 430/530 or other approach-certified GPS in my
> panel, I don't know that I'd even invest in a hand held GPS. It might
> be very nice to have your Garmin 396 interfaced with your 430/530,
> GTX330, and SL30/SL40, but at some point I think the gadgetry reaches
> the point of diminishing returns.

Garmin 396... WAAS capable
Garmin 430/530... WAAS ??? (someday. maybe.)

Jonathan Goodish

July 11th 05, 01:59 AM

In article >,
john smith > wrote:
> > Honestly, if I had a 430/530 or other approach-certified GPS in my
> > panel, I don't know that I'd even invest in a hand held GPS. It might
> > be very nice to have your Garmin 396 interfaced with your 430/530,
> > GTX330, and SL30/SL40, but at some point I think the gadgetry reaches
> > the point of diminishing returns.
>
> Garmin 396... WAAS capable
> Garmin 430/530... WAAS ??? (someday. maybe.)

Yes, I understand, which is one of the reasons that I DON'T have a 430
in my panel. I'm not sure how much WAAS buys you with a hand held.

JKG

Ryan Ferguson

July 11th 05, 03:38 AM

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

> I think that you're being disingenuous here.

Why, I never... !

> I know plenty of folks who
> aren't happy with the position they're now in with their 430s, for
> example. I can give you plenty of example from years ago when I wasn't
> completely satisfied with my Garmin products, because it was obvious
> that Garmin did not intend to provide feature upgrades at a reasonable
> price (in the portable market, this equated to a forklift upgrade for
> Garmin products--how convenient.)

The G430/530 are the most popular, cost-effective, and reliable GA
devices of their kind built to date. But okay. (Shrug)

> I continue to be amazed at the perception that Garmin's units don't run
> software or run on some kind of operating system.

Whose perception is that?

> Garmin's units do run
> software, and that software has bugs.

No kidding... but the bugs generally aren't serious, and they're
usually addressed promptly. In 5 years of owning (and constantly using)
a 295, there's been precisely one time that a bug actually caused me to
reboot the unit. That bug was addressed in a firmware revision, by the
way. Folks running the CV rig will generally deal with quite a few more
"bugs."

> I really don't hear that many
> folks complaining about their AWM system "crapping out" anymore, but I'm
> only a fairly recent user.

I hear it all the time... and read their forums, if you need more data
on that point.

> And I have found modern Bluetooth systems to
> be very reliable, without having to "mess with" or "manage" anything.

Consider yourself fortunate!

> I
> really don't understand where all of the alarming hype is coming from
> surrounding these systems. I will admit that they aren't "one-touch"
> systems and it does help to have an understanding of how they work, but
> that's true for operating an aircraft as well.

What you're failing to recognize is that it helps to understand the
"appliance," the operating system, the specific hardware you're using
with the software, the Bluetooth setup, the configuration... these are
all pretty technical things to have to mess with compared to an
all-in-one box that requires NO special knowledge on the part of the
user. That's asking a lot of a marketplace which now has the choice
between the former and the latter.

As a guy who -- in a former life -- designed software interfaces, I
chuckle when I see gearheads frustrated that normal, everyday people
don't "RTFM." Frankly, the product should be good enough that most
folks can figure out the basic functionality WITHOUT having to RTFM.
Human nature won't change - we need devices which act as appliances
which don't require special study, care, and maintenance - all of which
apply to the CV product, like it or not.

> There is still the perception that Honda and Toyota make the best cars,
> but that isn't necessarily true anymore.

No?

> Nevertheless, millions buy
> them based on that perception, and will sing their praises despite the
> fact that they have sometimes serious mechanical problems

Funny, I own two Honda automobiles and recently sold a Toyota Camry.
These are the best vehicles I've ever owned; the Accord I've owned for
six years; nothing but routine maintenance. The minivan (Odyssey) has
been perfect out of the gates. The Camry never required a lick of
special maintenance, either, and held an exceptionally high value upon
its resale.

> (I once had a
> Honda owner tell me that a failed brake master cylinder that cost $800
> to replace was "just a minor maintenance issue.")

Okay.

> I would rather deal
> with actual facts of user experience, rather than the marketing hype.

Same here. The Garmin hype, I expect, will be borne out shortly with
plenty of positive user experiences... just like always.

> Right now, I can find user experience both positive and negative for all
> products, including Garmin's.

Maybe so, but there's a much better ratio of positive to negative in the
Garmin camp, than in the CV camp.

Best,

-Ryan

Jonathan Goodish

July 11th 05, 04:34 AM

In article >,
Ryan Ferguson > wrote:
> The G430/530 are the most popular, cost-effective, and reliable GA
> devices of their kind built to date. But okay. (Shrug)

Saying that something is the "most popular" device doesn't imply that
"everyone loves it," which is something that you have stated in this
thread. Microsoft Windows is the most popular desktop operating system,
but I can guarantee you that there are quite a few folks who really
don't like it.

> No kidding... but the bugs generally aren't serious, and they're
> usually addressed promptly. In 5 years of owning (and constantly using)
> a 295, there's been precisely one time that a bug actually caused me to
> reboot the unit. That bug was addressed in a firmware revision, by the
> way. Folks running the CV rig will generally deal with quite a few more
> "bugs."

Well, I run the "CV rig" right now, and can't think of a major
show-stopping bug that I've encountered. Their recent releases of
software seem to be very stable and work well.

> > I really don't hear that many
> > folks complaining about their AWM system "crapping out" anymore, but I'm
> > only a fairly recent user.
>
> I hear it all the time... and read their forums, if you need more data
> on that point.

Actually, I do read their forums daily, and I don't see it. What I do
see is the fact that they provide public forums, and they tolerate folks
posting bug reports and squawks on those forums, and they are very
responsive to those types of posts. What other company permits bug
reports and squawks on their forums, much less has a company president
who responds to them on a near-daily basis? As far as I am aware,
Garmin doesn't even host forums, much less forums where the president of
the company and developers participate and respond to issues and
suggestions.

CV was late to the game with XM weather, and my understanding is that it
took them a while to get it stable on their software platform. However,
they seem to have put significant effort into fixing the problems as of
late, and the result is a system that is probably more stable than most
of their competition. I can say that I demo'ed some of the other
PDA-based XM weather software, and found many of the products to be of
questionable quality compared to the CV offering.

> > really don't understand where all of the alarming hype is coming from
> > surrounding these systems. I will admit that they aren't "one-touch"
> > systems and it does help to have an understanding of how they work, but
> > that's true for operating an aircraft as well.
>
> What you're failing to recognize is that it helps to understand the
> "appliance," the operating system, the specific hardware you're using
> with the software, the Bluetooth setup, the configuration... these are
> all pretty technical things to have to mess with compared to an
> all-in-one box that requires NO special knowledge on the part of the
> user. That's asking a lot of a marketplace which now has the choice
> between the former and the latter.

What you're failing to recognize is that I've repeatedly said that I
believe the 396 will be a great system, and that if it lives up to the
hype I might even buy one. I am skeptical that it will live up to the
hype of being such a perfect product as you and some others seem to
suggest.

When I purchased my Control Vision system in April, it worked out of the
box. I just turned it on and launched the program. It just worked.
Sure, it wasn't one touch, but I had never used a PocketPC device
before, and I had never used a Bluetooth device before. Call it luck or
whatever you want, but reading those same CV forums that you reference
above, I don't see hoards of folks complaining that they can't get the
system they just bought to work.

Before I purchased the CV system, I heard all of the comments that you
are stating here. In addition, I heard about how horrible CV's support
was. When I actually did some legwork and went to their forums, I
discovered that the comments that I had heard were way overblown. I
spoke to some locals who had the CV system and they had received good
support from CV. I have found CV's support to be excellent as well.

JKG

tony roberts

July 12th 05, 04:49 AM

>
> >Does anyone know how much the subscription to the XM weather costs?
$50 per month with sat radio.
I just tried one at Arlinton EAA Fly-In.
Impressive - but how many recreational pilots will spend $50.00 per
month for weather & music?

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

Ron Lee

July 12th 05, 05:06 AM

>Garmin 396... WAAS capable
>Garmin 430/530... WAAS ??? (someday. maybe.)

Handheld = not IFR approved.
Panel mount GNS 430/530 allows VOR, GPS and ILS approaches.

Ron Lee

Ron Lee

July 12th 05, 05:07 AM

I have a GNS 430 plus Airmap 100. If the GNS 430 has a problem I have
a redundant GPS unit.

Ron Lee

>Honestly, if I had a 430/530 or other approach-certified GPS in my
>panel, I don't know that I'd even invest in a hand held GPS. It might
>be very nice to have your Garmin 396 interfaced with your 430/530,
>GTX330, and SL30/SL40, but at some point I think the gadgetry reaches
>the point of diminishing returns.
>>
>JKG

Richard Kaplan

July 12th 05, 06:14 AM

What XM issues?

I used WeatherWorx on Wings for 2 years and now have XM on my EX500 and with
both coverage is rarely more than 5 minutes old.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan

July 12th 05, 06:20 AM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote

> 1--The 396 hasn't shipped yet, so no one knows how, or how well, it will
> work.

Correct. But since the 396 is so close to the 296 in features/screen/size
and since XM performance is well-known across multiple products and since
the 396 owner's manual is on Garmin's website, for the purpose of this
discussion we can make some fairly good educated assumptions about what its
performance will be.

> 2--We do know that the 396 has a small and rather unimpressive display
> based on the specifications. Compared to a TabletPC or even a modern
> PDA, I'm not sure how much of a weather picture you're going to get on a

Well considering that the 296 as it stands now offers terrain warnings more
effective than the panel-mount MX20 or EX500, I think it is quite reasonable
to conclude the 396 will be more than adequate to depict weather.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan

July 12th 05, 06:25 AM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote in message

> Well, a PDA/TabletPC and BT GPS can be charged in advance also,
> requiring a grand total of zero cables.

But the Xm receiver cannot be charged in advance unless you carry a separate
external battery; the 396's Xm receiver is powered via USB from the 396.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan

July 12th 05, 06:27 AM

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message

> I have never heard of interfacing a 195 to a 530. What information is
> shared?

Active waypoint data and flight plan data are shared. It makes for a really
nice backup unit and it also effectively adds to the number of
user-customizable GPS fields. On a 296 it means your flight plan or
approach are also overlayed on top of the terrain page.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Dan Luke

July 12th 05, 05:59 PM

"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
> What XM issues?

There have been a few that have required software revisions. I have had
to reboot a few times in the past. Right now it seems nearly bug free on
my gear.

> I used WeatherWorx on Wings for 2 years and now have XM on my EX500
> and with both coverage is rarely more than 5 minutes old.

When I was using it Friday, the radar button went red for nearly 20
minutes, even though I had a good locked satellite and other features
continued to work. That was the first time I've ever seen that happen.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Jonathan Goodish

July 12th 05, 10:21 PM

In article <1121145299.5ff82c7a61b1b3c0c826f2d0c4394000@terane ws>,
"Richard Kaplan" > wrote:

> What XM issues?
>
> I used WeatherWorx on Wings for 2 years and now have XM on my EX500 and with
> both coverage is rarely more than 5 minutes old.

There have been issues with retaining activation, so you fire up your
system and find it not activated, requiring a call to XM to have the
receiver re-activated before you can receive weather. Apparently the
issues are XM issues, but I'm not sure whether the problem is with the
service side or with the receiver. If it's with the receiver, Garmin
may have found a way around the problem if they built their own receiver
or via their code to drive the receiver.

I've heard of the activation issues from both Control Vision and WxWorx
on Wings customers, both of which use the WxWorx receiver hardware. I
haven't ever experienced them myself.

JKG

Jonathan Goodish

July 12th 05, 10:23 PM

In article <1121145627.4eb19f183b44f22cfc8819058a265941@terane ws>,
"Richard Kaplan" > wrote:
> Well considering that the 296 as it stands now offers terrain warnings more
> effective than the panel-mount MX20 or EX500, I think it is quite reasonable
> to conclude the 396 will be more than adequate to depict weather.

I never said anything about not being adequate, but there is a
difference between "adequate" for weather display and "practical" for a
big picture view. For tactical applications, it probably won't be much
of a problem. For strategic purposes, not as practical as WxWorx or a
VGA PDA.

JKG

Jonathan Goodish

July 12th 05, 10:27 PM

In article >,
(Ron Lee) wrote:
> I have a GNS 430 plus Airmap 100. If the GNS 430 has a problem I have
> a redundant GPS unit.

I'm not that concerned about a redundant GPS unit when I have
terrestrial navaids as a backup. The exception may be airports for
which there are no other options besides a GPS approach, but you can't
legally use a hand held for that anyway.

JKG

Richard Kaplan

July 12th 05, 10:33 PM

My understanding is that the activation issue occurs when the XM receiver is
not used for 90 days and the XM system thus suspends the account.

Regardless of whether this is an appropriate "feature," it does speak to my
point about the wires etc. being inconvenient. I suspect a good number of
the affected pilots fly more than once in 90 days but only turn on the XM
receiver on days when significant weather is forecast because it is too much
of a hassle otherwise.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan

July 12th 05, 11:04 PM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote in message

> big picture view. For tactical applications, it probably won't be much
> of a problem. For strategic purposes, not as practical as WxWorx or a
> VGA PDA.

This issue is valid but I have never seen any PDA which is optimum for
strategic purposes. A laptop, tablet, or panel-mount MFD is needed to
optimize strategic weather planning.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan

July 12th 05, 11:06 PM

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote in message

> Honestly, if I had a 430/530 or other approach-certified GPS in my
> panel, I don't know that I'd even invest in a hand held GPS.

Do you fly IFR in IMC? What would you do if you had an electrical failure
when in IMC?

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Jonathan Goodish

July 12th 05, 11:16 PM

In article <1121205900.b0302f294c5161e55dd5619862543283@terane ws>,
"Richard Kaplan" > wrote:
> > big picture view. For tactical applications, it probably won't be much
> > of a problem. For strategic purposes, not as practical as WxWorx or a
> > VGA PDA.
>
> This issue is valid but I have never seen any PDA which is optimum for
> strategic purposes. A laptop, tablet, or panel-mount MFD is needed to
> optimize strategic weather planning.

The newer VGA-capable PDAs actually present a pretty nice big picture,
though on smaller display than a laptop or TabletPC.

JKG

Jonathan Goodish

July 12th 05, 11:24 PM

In article <1121204022.4aa10b5a2edbb1bcd2266fd346218c74@terane ws>,
"Richard Kaplan" > wrote:

> My understanding is that the activation issue occurs when the XM receiver is
> not used for 90 days and the XM system thus suspends the account.

I'm not sure about this particular "feature," but all of the pilots I've
heard mention this issue claim that it can change from day to day.
Activate it today and receive weather, and tomorrow it shows as
unactivated and needs to be re-activated. This seems to be a problem
that's been mentioned on a number of different forums by users with the
WxWorx receiver. However, some users seem to experience it and others
don't, and some of those who have experienced it chronically have had
their XM receivers replaced and no longer have the problem. I've heard
various theories as to what the problem is, but it sounds like it could
be an XM problem that the newer receivers are working around.

JKG

Dan Luke

July 13th 05, 03:02 AM

"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
> My understanding is that the activation issue occurs when the XM
> receiver is not used for 90 days and the XM system thus suspends the
> account.

It's happened to me one week after a previous use. Very disconcerting
when there's convective stuff about.

I believe this is an XM, rather than WxWorx issue.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Richard Kaplan

July 13th 05, 04:10 AM

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message

> I believe this is an XM, rather than WxWorx issue.

Yes, that is disconcerting. But how can it be an XM issue if it only
happens with certain brands of hardware?

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Morgans

July 13th 05, 04:31 AM

"Ron Lee" > wrote

> Handheld = not IFR approved.
> Panel mount GNS 430/530 allows VOR, GPS and ILS approaches.

Hypothetical situation.

A guy is on an IFR cross country flight, in and out of IFR conditions. His
latest weather reports indicate that his destination has ceilings that might
be 1000 and 1/2 mile, but also might be better. An alternate within his
comfortable fuel range is mostly clear. His departure airport is also
mostly clear.

Halfway there, his IFR approved GPS suddenly craps out, but his 396 with XM
is doing great, and has plenty of power.

What should he do?
--
Jim in NC

Jose

July 13th 05, 05:09 AM

> Halfway there, his IFR approved GPS suddenly craps out, but his 396 with XM
> is doing great, and has plenty of power.

What other IFR approved navigation equipment does he have?

If he has VOR, and there's a VOR approach at the destination, I see no
reason not to continue on and shoot the VOR approach with the IFR
certified VOR equipment on the aircraft, using the handheld GPS for
situational awareness.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Morgans

July 13th 05, 08:02 AM

"Jose" > wrote

> What other IFR approved navigation equipment does he have?
>
> If he has VOR, and there's a VOR approach at the destination, I see no
> reason not to continue on and shoot the VOR approach with the IFR
> certified VOR equipment on the aircraft, using the handheld GPS for
> situational awareness.

His destination and all options only have GPS instrument approaches, or all
his other IFR instruments crapped out.

What he is thinking of doing, is not telling anyone that his other stuff
crapped out, and go ahead shooting a GPS approach to high minimums, and if
the weather does not let him decide early to go visual, go missed.
--
Jim in NC

Peter Clark

July 13th 05, 12:18 PM

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 03:02:32 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Jose" > wrote
>
>> What other IFR approved navigation equipment does he have?
>>
>> If he has VOR, and there's a VOR approach at the destination, I see no
>> reason not to continue on and shoot the VOR approach with the IFR
>> certified VOR equipment on the aircraft, using the handheld GPS for
>> situational awareness.
>
>His destination and all options only have GPS instrument approaches, or all
>his other IFR instruments crapped out.
>
>What he is thinking of doing, is not telling anyone that his other stuff
>crapped out, and go ahead shooting a GPS approach to high minimums, and if
>the weather does not let him decide early to go visual, go missed.

Wouldn't that violate the "must report equipment malfunction that
affects navigation" FAR?

Isn't the "right" answer in this case to report the malfunction and go
to the airport which allows descent from enroute VMC and get it fixed?

Richard Kaplan

July 13th 05, 01:36 PM

The best solution is to fly to VFR.

If he still has a working com, an acceptable alternative is to fly an ASR
approach at the destination if that is available.

Using the handheld for an approach is acceptable only as a last resort of no
other options remain; that is not the case here since there is an available
alternate with clear weather.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Dan Luke

July 13th 05, 02:04 PM

"Richard Kaplan" wrote:

>> I believe this is an XM, rather than WxWorx issue.
>
> Yes, that is disconcerting. But how can it be an XM issue if it only
> happens with certain brands of hardware?

Is that so? A WxWorx person on the phone led me to believe it is
something to do with the XM system.

I do not understand the technical issues. I'll call WxWorx again and
see if I can get more details.

BTW, re. Bluetooth issues: I just got my WxWorx receiver back from being
converted. I spent a couple hours setting the system up, including a
Holux 230 Bluetooth GPS. WxWorx kindly includes a 120v power supply
with the conversion so this can all be done at home. That was a good
thing, as it took considerable fiddling to get everything to work,
although I never had to resort to calling WxWorx.

Everything seemed to be working fine at last, but I failed to make a
critical test before I put it all in the airplane: I did not do a cold
start of the whole system. Upon starting everything up in the airplane,
I found that WxWorx could not communicate with the GPS. Nothing I tried
worked until I deleted the GPS from Bluetooth devices in the Windows
Control Panel and added it back again. Then, everything worked fine
until I cold started again, whereupon WxWorx again could not find the
GPS.

*sigh* That will be the other thing I'll be talking to WxWorx about
today.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Jose

July 13th 05, 02:16 PM

> His destination and all options only have GPS instrument approaches, or all
> his other IFR instruments crapped out.

If all the other IFR instruments crapped out, something is seriously
wrong that needs fixing. Go to the VFR alternate. If, once VFR, the
weather at the destination allows VFR flying, then fly VFR to the
destination (assuming it is unlikely that the rest of the airplane will
fall apart, leaving the pilot clutching the 396 and an empty yoke, like
in the cartoons.

> What he is thinking of doing, is not telling anyone that his other stuff
> crapped out, and go ahead shooting a GPS approach to high minimums, and if
> the weather does not let him decide early to go visual, go missed.

Yes, I figured. That would be an emergency procedure. This isn't an
emergency yet. Don't make it one.

Yes, it's likely that the 396 will do fine. But it may be "less than
fine" in a surprising way, since it hasn't been tested in ways the FAA
considers sufficient. I have issues with the FAA sometimes, but they
also have their good points.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Richard Kaplan

July 13th 05, 02:57 PM

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message

> Is that so? A WxWorx person on the phone led me to believe it is
> something to do with the XM system.

I have certainly heard and read that if you do not use an XM receiver for 90
days then it needs to be re-activated. There is no doubt that is an "XM"
issue.

I have not heard of any such deactivation issue for a unit used more often
than every 90 days; if that is the case, that is certainly not common to XM
receivers overall.

The Bluetooth situation you describe is indeed an excellent example of why a
solution like the 396 is more appealing than a PDA solution. The less
potential in-flight issues to diagnose the better. I love tinkering with
computers but not while I am flying.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Grumman-581

July 13th 05, 03:01 PM

"Jose" wrote in message . ..
> I have issues with the FAA sometimes, but they
> also have their good points.

Yeah <sarcasm>RIGHT</sarcasm>... Tell that to all the trees that they've
directly or indirectly killed in their mountains of paperwork over the
years...

Jonathan Goodish

July 13th 05, 03:33 PM

In article <1121262944.2f06222670a0bc3f220fd5b432f1d014@terane ws>,
"Richard Kaplan" > wrote:
> I have not heard of any such deactivation issue for a unit used more often
> than every 90 days; if that is the case, that is certainly not common to XM
> receivers overall.

Richard,

It is common to the XM receivers used by WxWorx, and it is fairly well
known. It doesn't matter whether you're using those receivers with a PC
or PDA, or whose software you're running. I am not sure whether they've
found a resolution in the newer receivers, but as I stated, I haven't
had a problem with this issue.

JKG

Jonathan Goodish

July 13th 05, 03:38 PM

In article >,
"Dan Luke" > wrote:
> Everything seemed to be working fine at last, but I failed to make a
> critical test before I put it all in the airplane: I did not do a cold
> start of the whole system. Upon starting everything up in the airplane,
> I found that WxWorx could not communicate with the GPS. Nothing I tried
> worked until I deleted the GPS from Bluetooth devices in the Windows
> Control Panel and added it back again. Then, everything worked fine
> until I cold started again, whereupon WxWorx again could not find the
> GPS.

I haven't had any of these issues on the PDA, so it makes me wonder if
the Bluetooth issues are related to WindowsXP. I know that I can't get
my WindowsXP laptop to maintain a steady WiFi connection no matter what
I do... it's good for a random period of time, and then it drops and
resets. Have no such problem with WiFi on the iPaq or with my
Apple-branded laptop.

JKG

Mike

July 13th 05, 05:54 PM

In this thread you mention syncing the 430 to the 396. I can not find
any documentation or installer who is aware this can be done. Can you
point me in the right direction for some info?

Thanks,

Mike Burrill

Richard Kaplan wrote:
> "Jonathan Goodish" > wrote
>
> > For a portable weather system--no question about it. However, if you're
> > an aircraft owner and never move the weather system, it's a moot point.
>
> Less significant, yes. Moot, no. It is still a piece of equipment which
> needs either a quasi-permanent power connection to ship's power or else
> regular recharging or replacing of batteries.
>
> > None of this is relevant for renter pilots. If I'm considering a 396
> > primarily for weather, why wouldn't I use a small TabletPC, which has a
> > superior display and orientation compared with the 396, and WxWorx on
> > Wings software, which provides a superior weather display? Throw a
> > small Bluetooth GPS on the glare shield and you can see where you are in
>
> It is relevant to renter pilots in particular because it is by far the
> easiest way to put both GPS navigation and weather in a rental airplane.
> Sure you can set up an XM receiver, Bluetooth GPS, and PDA whenever you rent
> a plane, but that is a lot more work then plugging in a 396
>
> > relation to the weather. Entering a flight plan into a Tablet or PDA
> > isn't a big deal
>
> Yes it is if you are talking about an IFR situation when you need to enter
> flight plan or navaid info into panel-mount IFR equipment and then duplicate
> it in a portable GPS and then reprogram both when you receive changes in
> routings or approach clearances enroute. For VFR flight this is not a huge
> issue; for IFR flight the convenience from the crossfed data is HUGE.
>
> > and I probably wouldn't hesitate to use the Tablet or
> > PDA for primary enroute navigation if I had a panel mount that wasn't
> > doing anything other than navigation anyway.
>
> That is fine for VFR but not IFR.
>
>
> > sure how that would be much different for VNAV guidance than using a
> > Garmin portable--unless you're referring to specific software features
> > in the Garmin.
>
> Yes, I am referring to the "Vertical Speed to Target" feature of the Garmin
> portables (and some Lowrance units as well). This is a highly desirable
> feature for executing a deadstick landing when VFR or especially IFR or at
> night.
>
>
> > I'm not saying there aren't advantages to the Garmin portables, but if I
> > had an IFR panel mount, I'm not sure that I'd run out and drop $2500 on
> > a Garmin portable just so that it can sync my flight plan.
>
> If you had a Garmin 430 or 530 in your panel, it would be downright silly
> not to add a Garmin portable GPS given the advantages it offers.. it could
> be any portable model since the 195. Once it is a given that you add a
> Garmin portable, then it does not make much sense to have a Garmin portable
> GPS for backup nav and a separate portable weather system. The realistic
> options at that point are either a Garmin 396 or else an older Garmin
> portable GPS plus panel-mount weather.
>
>
> > renter pilot, the 396 would be an ideal system due to its easy
> > portability. If I was an owner serious about certified weather uplink
> > and features not available on the 430/530, I think I'd investigate
> > selling the 430/530 and buying another certified system that can better
> > serve my needs.
>
> There is no such thing as certified weather uplink -- it is easier panel or
> portable.
>
> Weather on the 430/530 themselves are marginal.
>
> The apparent best IFR panel weather datalink options at this point are
> either a Garmin 430/530 coupled to panel-mount EX500 multi-function display
> for weather (an expensive option) or else a Garmin 430 coupled to a 396
> portable for weather and terrain.
>
> > no obstacles, terrain, or weather capability, so it has been relegated
> > to storage.
>
> That is one of the key points... the terrain feature of the 296 is
> stupendous and ought to be considered the Product of the Year -- in many
> ways its terrain implementation is superior to that on much more expensive
> panel solutions such as an MX20 or an EX500.
>
> --------------------
> Richard Kaplan
>
> www.flyimc.com

john smith

July 13th 05, 06:17 PM

Morgans wrote:
> What he is thinking of doing, is not telling anyone that his other stuff
> crapped out, and go ahead shooting a GPS approach to high minimums, and if
> the weather does not let him decide early to go visual, go missed.

The handheld doesn't have RAIM.
Shooting the GPS approach with the handheld is an invitation to disaster.

Richard Kaplan

July 13th 05, 06:41 PM

The Garmin 430/530 installation manual documents a connection from the
430/530 serial output to the 195/295/296/396/196 serial input. Set the
430/530 to "Aviation Out" and the handheld to "Aviation In" and use the
combined data/power cable available from Garmin. It should take less than 2
hours of avionics tech time and under $100 of parts.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan

July 13th 05, 06:50 PM

The finished install with the permanent data/power cable looks like this:

www.flyimc.com/newpanel.html

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Morgans

July 14th 05, 03:37 AM

"Jose" > wrote
>
> Yes, I figured. That would be an emergency procedure. This isn't an
> emergency yet. Don't make it one.
>
> Yes, it's likely that the 396 will do fine. But it may be "less than
> fine" in a surprising way, since it hasn't been tested in ways the FAA
> considers sufficient. I have issues with the FAA sometimes, but they
> also have their good points.

In my hypothetical situation, since his destination was 1000 and 1 mile, I
was fishing for who would (at those rather high minimums) go take a look,
and if not visual by that time, then go elsewhere.

No take-rs, I see.
--
Jim in NC

Doug

July 14th 05, 05:12 AM

In 2200 hours of flying, I've never had a RAIM failure on my IFR GPS.
Trying to shoot an approach with a handheld, the problem is the unit
being in your scan. If it were permanently mounted and you were
familiar with it, it could work. I never do GPS approaches much anyway.
I take the ILS if I can.

Gig 601XL Builder

July 14th 05, 04:47 PM

"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
>> His destination and all options only have GPS instrument approaches, or
>> all
>> his other IFR instruments crapped out.
>
> If all the other IFR instruments crapped out, something is seriously wrong
> that needs fixing. Go to the VFR alternate. If, once VFR, the weather at
> the destination allows VFR flying, then fly VFR to the destination
> (assuming it is unlikely that the rest of the airplane will fall apart,
> leaving the pilot clutching the 396 and an empty yoke, like in the
> cartoons.
>
>> What he is thinking of doing, is not telling anyone that his other stuff
>> crapped out, and go ahead shooting a GPS approach to high minimums, and
>> if
>> the weather does not let him decide early to go visual, go missed.
>
> Yes, I figured. That would be an emergency procedure. This isn't an
> emergency yet. Don't make it one.
>
> Yes, it's likely that the 396 will do fine. But it may be "less than
> fine" in a surprising way, since it hasn't been tested in ways the FAA
> considers sufficient. I have issues with the FAA sometimes, but they also
> have their good points.
>

Now here's where I don't understand the FAA's logic.

I'm building an airplane. I can put in any non-certified equipment I want to
including NAV equipment that is not new or yellowed tagged and "I" can
certify that it is up to IFR standards.

But... If I want a IFR GPS it has to be installed to the standard of the TSO
(Can't remember number).

Basicly Garmin gould build a device that derived it's information from
VOR/LOC/NDB/GS to the same standard as the 1/2/396 and I could fly IFR with
it. But because they use GPS I can't.