Decision time....go/no go

[Fred Choate]

Well, being newly certified, I of course get many requests from folks to
take them up for a ride. I am glad to do so. This weekend I had scheduled
a 1 hour flight around the Seattle area with two guys from work. Neither of
them have ever been a small plane before, but both were excited to go, and
have been looking forward to it all week.

I had to make my first "no go" this morning. I wanted to go up as much as
they did, and even though we had VFR conditions, there were showers moving
in from the south, which could involve loss of visibility minimums, not to
mention the enjoyment factor for the two guys on their first flight. They
were disappointed, but I told them I would re-schedule for next week as the
weather is supposed to be very good. I assured them that they will get much
more enjoyment out of the flight it the weather is better, and so off we
went.

I guess my point is that I didn't realize how it would affect me to cancel
the flight. Everything about flying today seemed a bit off, and deep in my
gut I knew that I was going to cancel, but standing there on the ramp
looking up at the sky and seeing the partially clear sky to the north really
makes an impact. I now see how emotions can give way to poor judgment.....I
also know now what to expect from myself in terms of feelings, and can
better anticipate those feelings for the many more times that I will have to
cancel, living in the Pacific Northwest.

Fred

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:36:13 -0700, "Fred Choate"
> wrote in
>::

>I guess my point is that I didn't realize how it would affect me to cancel
>the flight.

Canceling a flight in the face of social pressure is one of the most
difficult lessons for a newly certified airmen to appreciate. It's
difficult for a CFI to teach this. It is part of the "license to
learn."

I'm sure your passengers were a bit disappointed, but now have
considerable appreciation for your prudence and respect for their
safety. Well done.

Imagine the pressure you'd be under if you had landed somewhere
distant, and were deciding whether to go no-go back home to get them
there in time for work the next day.

[[email protected]]

Fred Choate wrote:
>
> I guess my point is that I didn't realize how it would affect me to cancel
> the flight. Everything about flying today seemed a bit off, and deep in my
> gut I knew that I was going to cancel

I've learned that when something in my gut doesn't feel right,
investigate. We absorb far more information than we thoughtfully
process. Usually I investigate, find nothing wrong, and proceed, minus
the anxiety. But every so often it's helped me catch something I might
otherwise have missed.

-cwk.

[Jose]

> Canceling a flight in the face of social pressure is one of the most
> difficult lessons for a newly certified airmen to appreciate. It's
> difficult for a CFI to teach this. It is part of the "license to
> learn."
>
> I'm sure your passengers were a bit disappointed, but now have
> considerable appreciation for your prudence and respect for their
> safety. Well done.

Some years back I took two friends for a 4 AM flight to Montauk Point
for them to catch another friend who flew in in a twin, so they could
all catch a tuna charter and go fishing. I was concerned about fog, but
that turned out to be a non-issue. The winds easily kept the fog at
bay. In fact, they were so strong that I did not have enough rudder
authority to keep on course in a slipping approach to the runway (I
figured we'd continue and see if the wind died down closer in), and as I
came over the sand dunes hit up and down drafts strong enough for me go
go around and try again. This was no better, up down up down go around.
The twin was on the ground and reported twenty knots of direct
crosswind (which he handled just fine). I simply said that it exceeded
the capability of this aircraft, and we diverted to Nantucket, where we
had a nice day of walking around and standing in line for shark at a BBQ.

My friends in the airplane said later that my decision greatly increased
their respect for me as a pilot, as there was a lot of pressure on me to
try again and just get the thing down but I did not succumb.

Do what's right for the safety of the flight. Your friends depend on
you for that, and when you say "no" it makes it quite clear to them that
you are in fact making the right command decisions, and not just
following along.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

Fred
Good for you. That kind of attitude will keep you alive and prevent
killing innocents! I have lived with the attitude that I WILL RISK MY
LIFE, BUT NOT THE LIVES OF OTHERS.
I've been flying for nearly 50 years now and make my living as a crop
duster which has its own set of risk values. Some 22,000 years down the
road and no one killed. Never be afraid to say NO to a flight and live
to see the next day.
Again, Good For YOU.
Ol shy & Bashful

[Jay Honeck]

> I guess my point is that I didn't realize how it would affect me to cancel
> the flight.

Well done, Fred.

When I was newly certificated, I promised a coworker to take him and his son
flying. Over and over again one of us had to cancel, due to work or
personal issues coming up. It was very frustrating.

At last the day came when the three of us were standing on the tarmac
together, loading up the plane. The winds were high and gusty (of course, a
cross-wind, at good ol' 2300 x 30' Sylvania Field, C89), the ceilings low
and ugly, and the temperature was dropping.

Technically it was VFR, but even with my paltry 70-or-so hours I knew that
it would be neither fun nor pretty. Worse, I didn't know if it would *stay*
VFR, and I really didn't want my friend and his kid barfing all over the
rental plane.

It was one of the hardest things I've ever done, but I scrubbed the flight
right there on the ramp. The look on that kid's face still haunts me -- and
we never were able to re-schedule -- but it's just something you've got to
be able to do, if you want to be a pilot.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Judah]

wrote in news:1121027023.161831.119530
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

<snip>
> Some 22,000 years down the
> road and no one killed.

NOW THAT'S an amazing stat! :)

[Gary Drescher]

"Fred Choate" > wrote in message
...
> I had to make my first "no go" this morning. I wanted to go up as much as
> they did, and even though we had VFR conditions, there were showers moving
> in from the south, which could involve loss of visibility minimums, not to
> mention the enjoyment factor for the two guys on their first flight. They
> were disappointed, but I told them I would re-schedule for next week as
> the weather is supposed to be very good. I assured them that they will
> get much more enjoyment out of the flight it the weather is better, and so
> off we went.

Good decision! One thing that I find helpful is to manage passengers'
expectations by emphasizing from the outset that flying plans are always
tentative and often have to be canceled due to weather, maintenance
problems, etc.

--Gary

[Tony]

I've taxied back from run up more than once: if it ain't right, don't
do it!

[Peter Duniho]

"Tony" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've taxied back from run up more than once: if it ain't right, don't
> do it!

I have as well. Though, one time I had to leave the plane at the run-up
pad, because the parking brake cable came loose with the brakes set. Doh.
Hard to taxi back from that "ain't right" situation. :)

[Tony]

This is a true story, and it happened so long ago the statute of
limitations has to be protection.

I was in the takeoff run for my Instrument Rating -- a 172 sometime in
the 60s, and the damned airspeed needle wouldn't come off the stop. I
chopped the power, the examiner asked what was wrong, and I pointed to
the airspeed indicating zero while we were at maybe 30 kts. It was on a
5000 foot runway as I remember. He said "Go anyway." I think I won my
rating when I pulled back the throttle.

Anyhow, I had some real partial panel flying that day, and can tell you
the Cessna 172 is a real forgiving airplane!

I don't recall ever returning after taxiing out for weather reasons,
but must have a dozen times for equipment problems. NAV not testing
right, carb heat cable breaking -- it's not supposted to come out a
foot! -- bad radio, too rough on one mag, etc. Nearly all of those were
on rental airplanes, that means within my first 300 or so hours.
Problems like that went way down when I began flying my own airplane.

[Sylvain]

Tony wrote:
> I've taxied back from run up more than once: if it ain't right, don't
> do it!
>

I did it once with a FAA inspector in the back seat (Citabria) :-)

--Sylvain

[Ron Lee]

I have cancelled due to a broken alternator wire (no charging), and
several times due to weather that seemed ok when I drove to the
airport but looked unacceptable after I started the engine.

I have returned home due to higher than expected winds aloft and
impact to a tight schedule.

This morning I cut short an instrument course lesson due to less than
optimal physical condition.

Bottom line: I can end or not start any flight for any reason. I did
not see the original thread but if others are inconvenienced so be it.
I fly safe.

Ron Lee

[[email protected]]

Geeezzz....22,000 years? I meant hours of flight time of course!! Been
some long days lately with 8-12 hours in the cockpit not uncommon.
tired but trying to take safety naps when I can.
Ol Shy & Bashful

[[email protected]]

Fred
Kind of a funny story about a job interview years ago....I had been
flying a Beech Queen air in So america and was back int he states
looking for a seat. A broker put me in touch with a guy who had just
bought a B-80 from him and told him I was available with lots of
experience. So, I went to the interview all dressed up and looking
proper like a pro corporate pilot should. The company owner is from
Texas and sounds like it but he will fool ya with that clod kicking
facade...he is an engineering grad from Rice!! So anyway, he says they
bought the airplane with all the state of the art equipment (1975) and
he said they did it so they could fly in any kind of weather. I
patiently listened to him, then said while its nice to have all that
gear, at times the weather simply will overpower either the aircraft,
or the pilot and there is a time when you say NO to a flight. He said,
"Wait a minute...I just told you we have all the airline equipment,
deice boots, hot props,...etc, etc and we need to go when we have an
emergency." By this time I didn't like his attitude and got up to
leave. He asked what I was doing and I told him I didn't want to work
with or for someone who would push the weather or override the PIC
decisions. I was getting a llittle bit hot about it. Then he says,
"Wait please. I did that for a reason. We have a young pilot who lets
himself get shoved into bad calls and we don't want that happening with
this new airplane. I wanted to see if you could say NO and stick to
it."
Well, I got hired and flew with him for a couple years until they sold
the airplane during a business downturn. We have remained good friends
all these years and he has his license now. He isn't afraid to tell
people what he learned by watching and listening to me.
BTW, the young pilot was let go after he was busted flying down the
interstate at tree top level in southern Colorado. Then I saw his name
in the paper some 15 years later as the pilot in a Queen Air (his own)
that had crashed near Lake Tahoe in bad weather and killed 6 people.
There is a lesson to be learned there.....
Ol Shy & Bashful

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Fred
> Kind of a funny story about a job interview years ago....I had been
> flying a Beech Queen air in So america and was back int he states
> looking for a seat. A broker put me in touch with a guy who had just
> bought a B-80 from him and told him I was available with lots of
> experience. So, I went to the interview all dressed up and looking
> proper like a pro corporate pilot should. The company owner is from
> Texas and sounds like it but he will fool ya with that clod kicking
> facade...he is an engineering grad from Rice!! So anyway, he says they
> bought the airplane with all the state of the art equipment (1975) and
> he said they did it so they could fly in any kind of weather. I
> patiently listened to him, then said while its nice to have all that
> gear, at times the weather simply will overpower either the aircraft,
> or the pilot and there is a time when you say NO to a flight. He said,
> "Wait a minute...I just told you we have all the airline equipment,
> deice boots, hot props,...etc, etc and we need to go when we have an
> emergency." By this time I didn't like his attitude and got up to
> leave. He asked what I was doing and I told him I didn't want to work
> with or for someone who would push the weather or override the PIC
> decisions. I was getting a llittle bit hot about it. Then he says,
> "Wait please. I did that for a reason. We have a young pilot who lets
> himself get shoved into bad calls and we don't want that happening with
> this new airplane. I wanted to see if you could say NO and stick to
> it."
> Well, I got hired and flew with him for a couple years until they sold
> the airplane during a business downturn. We have remained good friends
> all these years and he has his license now. He isn't afraid to tell
> people what he learned by watching and listening to me.
> BTW, the young pilot was let go after he was busted flying down the
> interstate at tree top level in southern Colorado. Then I saw his name
> in the paper some 15 years later as the pilot in a Queen Air (his own)
> that had crashed near Lake Tahoe in bad weather and killed 6 people.
> There is a lesson to be learned there.....
> Ol Shy & Bashful


That pilot wasn't a celebrity in the Warbird circuit, was he?

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Fred Choate]

Thanks for the story. The folks I work for presently (non aviation) are the
same way. The push an employee until the employee either stands up to them,
or quits....they like the ones that stand up to them. Kind of a strange way
to handle things in our particular industry, but I like that guys style in
yours.

Fred

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Fred
> Kind of a funny story about a job interview years ago....I had been
> flying a Beech Queen air in So america and was back int he states
> looking for a seat. A broker put me in touch with a guy who had just
> bought a B-80 from him and told him I was available with lots of
> experience. So, I went to the interview all dressed up and looking
> proper like a pro corporate pilot should. The company owner is from
> Texas and sounds like it but he will fool ya with that clod kicking
> facade...he is an engineering grad from Rice!! So anyway, he says they
> bought the airplane with all the state of the art equipment (1975) and
> he said they did it so they could fly in any kind of weather. I
> patiently listened to him, then said while its nice to have all that
> gear, at times the weather simply will overpower either the aircraft,
> or the pilot and there is a time when you say NO to a flight. He said,
> "Wait a minute...I just told you we have all the airline equipment,
> deice boots, hot props,...etc, etc and we need to go when we have an
> emergency." By this time I didn't like his attitude and got up to
> leave. He asked what I was doing and I told him I didn't want to work
> with or for someone who would push the weather or override the PIC
> decisions. I was getting a llittle bit hot about it. Then he says,
> "Wait please. I did that for a reason. We have a young pilot who lets
> himself get shoved into bad calls and we don't want that happening with
> this new airplane. I wanted to see if you could say NO and stick to
> it."
> Well, I got hired and flew with him for a couple years until they sold
> the airplane during a business downturn. We have remained good friends
> all these years and he has his license now. He isn't afraid to tell
> people what he learned by watching and listening to me.
> BTW, the young pilot was let go after he was busted flying down the
> interstate at tree top level in southern Colorado. Then I saw his name
> in the paper some 15 years later as the pilot in a Queen Air (his own)
> that had crashed near Lake Tahoe in bad weather and killed 6 people.
> There is a lesson to be learned there.....
> Ol Shy & Bashful
>

[[email protected]]

No...his family was well to do and in construction in the Sacto area.