Public Aerobatics - a Disaster waiting to happen...

[Denny]

I have long expressed my opinion that public displays of low level
aerobatics entails risk vastly out of proportion to any benefits,
perceived or real... Aerobatic displays do not improve public support
for general aviation nor for the preservation of local airports...
Aerobatic displays do not foster a favorable opinion of general
aviation among the lawmakers of this country - who are exquisitely
sensitive to the mood of the public... And the carnage albeit
infrequent, only reinforces the perception among the insurance
companies that any form of aviation is an underwriting loss just
looking for a place to happen... I simply do not see any benefits to GA
stemming from low level displays of aerobatics in front of the general
public...

denny

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Denny" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> I have long expressed my opinion that public displays of low level
> aerobatics entails risk vastly out of proportion to any benefits,
> perceived or real... Aerobatic displays do not improve public support
> for general aviation nor for the preservation of local airports...
> Aerobatic displays do not foster a favorable opinion of general
> aviation among the lawmakers of this country - who are exquisitely
> sensitive to the mood of the public... And the carnage albeit
> infrequent, only reinforces the perception among the insurance
> companies that any form of aviation is an underwriting loss just
> looking for a place to happen... I simply do not see any benefits to GA
> stemming from low level displays of aerobatics in front of the general
> public...
>

People like to watch it. Pilots like to fly it. We don't need any more
reductions in freedom.

[Jose]

> I simply do not see any benefits to GA
> stemming from low level displays of aerobatics in front of the general
> public...

.... but there is a benefit to the audience which came out to see it.
Not everything done with GA has to have a benefit to GA as a whole. It
is sufficient that it has a benefit to the participants, not out of line
with the risks to the non-participants.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Denny" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have long expressed my opinion that public displays of low level
> aerobatics entails risk vastly out of proportion to any benefits,
> perceived or real... Aerobatic displays do not improve public support
> for general aviation nor for the preservation of local airports...
> Aerobatic displays do not foster a favorable opinion of general
> aviation among the lawmakers of this country - who are exquisitely
> sensitive to the mood of the public... And the carnage albeit
> infrequent, only reinforces the perception among the insurance
> companies that any form of aviation is an underwriting loss just
> looking for a place to happen... I simply do not see any benefits to GA
> stemming from low level displays of aerobatics in front of the general
> public...
>
> denny
>

Does NASCAR racing upset insurance companies?

[Hotel 179]

"Denny" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have long expressed my opinion that public displays of low level
> aerobatics entails risk vastly out of proportion to any benefits,
> perceived or real...

----------------------------------------reply-------------------------------------------------

What next? Outlaw NASCAR 'cause thar ain't much moonshinin' theses days
nohow....

From the Redneck Riviera,

Stephen F. Pearce
Foley, Alabama

[Dudley Henriques]

"Denny" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have long expressed my opinion that public displays of low level
> aerobatics entails risk vastly out of proportion to any benefits,
> perceived or real... Aerobatic displays do not improve public support
> for general aviation nor for the preservation of local airports...
> Aerobatic displays do not foster a favorable opinion of general
> aviation among the lawmakers of this country - who are exquisitely
> sensitive to the mood of the public... And the carnage albeit
> infrequent, only reinforces the perception among the insurance
> companies that any form of aviation is an underwriting loss just
> looking for a place to happen... I simply do not see any benefits to GA
> stemming from low level displays of aerobatics in front of the general
> public...
>
> denny

You are simply incorrect on several counts and lack understanding on the
others. What you have expressed here amounts to nothing more than your own
personal feelings on the matter.
First of all, GA insurance isn't predicated on airshow accidents...PERIOD!
Public perception of GA has little to do with air show accidents. The public
isn't nearly as uneducated and unwashed as you are attempting to make them.
They are more than capable of creating a defining line between air show
related accidents and everyday flying.
This having been said, I can attest that airshow flying, especially low
altitude aerobatics is indeed a very dangerous profession, and that in many
cases, professional demonstration pilots do indeed exceed both their own,
and their airplane's limitations. There are indeed safety issues, but
banning airshow flying will not happen as you suggest. What is happening is
that professionals are working together to make the venue safer.
I can tell you that as long as there is public interest in low altitude
aerobatic flying, and as long as spectacles like an airshow create a draw
for the public, the venue will remain with us.

To cover how the safety issues are being addressed goes way beyond the
limits of this post. Might I suggest you obtain a copy of "Zero Error
Margin" by Gen Des Barker of the South African Air Force. In this book, Gen
Barker, myself, and a large group of highly experienced professional pilots
who are completely familiar with the issues of flying aerobatics at low
altitude discuss openly the factors you might need to understand a bit more
before you attempt to speak on this issue.
Other than that, blast away with your "feelings" on the matter :-)
Dudley Henriques

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article om>,
"Denny" > wrote:
> looking for a place to happen... I simply do not see any benefits to GA
> stemming from low level displays of aerobatics in front of the general
> public...


I don't know, the air shows in my area are enormously popular with the
general public. People turn out in droves for the experience. While
there may not be a large direct benefit to GA, there is a big benefit
for the airport and a resulting indirect benefit for GA.



JKG

[John Gaquin]

"Denny" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have long expressed my opinion that public displays of low level
> aerobatics entails risk vastly out of proportion to any benefits,
> perceived or real...

Then don't produce or watch any aerobatic shows.

As someone stated earlier, pilots like to fly it, and people like to watch.
Consider these points in the context of our Constitutional liberties --- it
is the *prohibition* that must be compellingly justified, not the activity.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Denny wrote:
>I simply do not see any benefits to GA
> stemming from low level displays of aerobatics in front of the general
> public...


Then don't go.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[pittss1c]

On subject: mose general public airshows come to see the Jet powered cars.

Low level acro acts are risky no doubt, but boy the Masters of Disaster
were cool.
The sad thing is that, how many people thought to themselves.... "that
is an accident waiting to happen"?
I had been thinking that about Franklin's acts for years (along with
MANY others)
A show of hands: how many higher altitude, loose formation non-violent
acts do people here like to watch?
I like flying farmer cub acts (though also dangerous) Manfred Radius (he
does low level ribbon cuts too) John Mohr (non-violent, but dangerous
none the less).

Now I think of it, all the acts I like are dangerous.

Sorry
Mike



Denny wrote:
> I have long expressed my opinion that public displays of low level
> aerobatics entails risk vastly out of proportion to any benefits,
> perceived or real... Aerobatic displays do not improve public support
> for general aviation nor for the preservation of local airports...
> Aerobatic displays do not foster a favorable opinion of general
> aviation among the lawmakers of this country - who are exquisitely
> sensitive to the mood of the public... And the carnage albeit
> infrequent, only reinforces the perception among the insurance
> companies that any form of aviation is an underwriting loss just
> looking for a place to happen... I simply do not see any benefits to GA
> stemming from low level displays of aerobatics in front of the general
> public...
>
> denny
>

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Denny > posted:

> I have long expressed my opinion that public displays of low level
> aerobatics entails risk vastly out of proportion to any benefits,
> perceived or real...
>
What activity that displays unusual proficiency and skill *does* have
benefits beyond the entertainment of the viewer? Why not go troll some
NASCAR group about the lack of benefit of that activity to General
Automobile drivers? Why not harrass those watchng the Tour de France about
the lack of benefit to General Bicyclists?

Somehow, I think you just "don't get it". But, apparently tens of
thousands of others *do* get it, so not to worry.

Neil

[Kyle Boatright]

"pittss1c" > wrote in message
...
> On subject: mose general public airshows come to see the Jet powered cars.
>
> Low level acro acts are risky no doubt, but boy the Masters of Disaster
> were cool.
> The sad thing is that, how many people thought to themselves.... "that is
> an accident waiting to happen"?
> I had been thinking that about Franklin's acts for years (along with MANY
> others)
> A show of hands: how many higher altitude, loose formation non-violent
> acts do people here like to watch?
> I like flying farmer cub acts (though also dangerous) Manfred Radius (he
> does low level ribbon cuts too) John Mohr (non-violent, but dangerous none
> the less).
>
> Now I think of it, all the acts I like are dangerous.
>
> Sorry
> Mike

Believe it or not, I'm very tired of the loud/low/smoky/blaring
music/babbling announcer set of airshow performances. Spare me the
Shockwave or any other flame farting truck. Also, please spare me the pyro
show when the warbirds perform. I've seen all of this stuff a hundred
times. That said, I understand that Joe 6 pack, who's not a pilot and is
only bringing his kids for an afternoon's entertainment IS looking for loud
airplanes, violent acro, and flame farting trucks. I also understand that
all of these acts are very entertaining the first several times you see 'em.
I just happen to be privledged enough to go to SnF and Oshkosh almost every
year, where I see these shows several days in a row and get burned out on
these kinds of performances.

I truly enjoy Manfred Radius and other performers who fly less violent and
more aesthetic (?) routines. I remember a Kitfox routine at Oshkosh 10 or
so years ago that was very nice. Muffled engine, smooth routine, no loud
announcer. Also, at the Tico show a bunch of years ago the weather had kept
most of the show planes from making it on Friday, but someone went up in a
Hawker Fury and did a very long, smooth routine with smoke trails from both
wingtips. With the sleeve valve engine, the performance was relatively
quiet, and the smoke trails formed these beautiful and long lasting vortexes
because the air was very still...

My $0.02 worth (which I really need to be saving for avgas these days...)

KB

[Brian]

It was Jimmy Franklin that did the Kitfox routine at OSH.
I watched him practice it at the kitfox factory and I thought it was
one of the best airshows I had ever seen. Mostly because in a Kitfox he
was never more than a 1/4 mile away from me as opposed the just going
by.

Brian C.

[malabo]

As my friend Pete Anderson put it "everyone wants to see the two-headed
fat lady". Polished, skilled aerobatic routines are dull, safe and
boring - bring on the farting jet truck. I guess the few of us that
post of this NG appreciate a smoothly flown, original engine Chipmunk
without a smoke system doing a full routine low-level without a break
for altitude, or the Granley's glueing two mismatched airplanes like a
Yak--55 and a Yak-18 together. For the rest of the crowd it is World
Wide Wrestling, smoke and flames, make mine double bizarre.

Offhand I can't remember a formation aerobatic team that hasn't had a
fatality, Blue Angels, Frecce Tricolore, French Connection,
Snowbirds... etc. so I'm saddened but not surprised.

I had a look at a couple of home videos from the Canada Post
(newspaper) web site. Looked like Franklin was at the top of a steep
climb wing-over to the left when Younkin pulled up and into him from
his rear blind side. There was lots of smoke around so that may have
been a factor.

My condolences to all....

[Denny]

Interesting bunch of responses, but nothing I have read so far induces
me to change my statement... Reread the first sentence of my original
post...
For those who suggest I am operating from lack of information, I have
been ground crew at internationally sanctioned aerobatic
competitions...

cheers ... denny

[pittss1c]

Brian wrote:
> It was Jimmy Franklin that did the Kitfox routine at OSH.
> I watched him practice it at the kitfox factory and I thought it was
> one of the best airshows I had ever seen. Mostly because in a Kitfox he
> was never more than a 1/4 mile away from me as opposed the just going
> by.
>
> Brian C.
>
I was at the performer party immediately afterwards.
Jimmy cracked the windshield durring that performance.
I bet he sold a lot of airplanes that day.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Interesting bunch of responses, but nothing I have read so far induces
> me to change my statement... Reread the first sentence of my original
> post...
> For those who suggest I am operating from lack of information, I have
> been ground crew at internationally sanctioned aerobatic
> competitions...
>
> cheers ... denny

WOW!!!

[Happy Dog]

"Denny" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have long expressed my opinion that public displays of low level
> aerobatics entails risk vastly out of proportion to any benefits,
> perceived or real...

Your opinions are of little interest to the informed world.

Aerobatic displays do not improve public support
> for general aviation nor for the preservation of local airports...

Evidence?

> Aerobatic displays do not foster a favorable opinion of general
> aviation among the lawmakers of this country - who are exquisitely
> sensitive to the mood of the public...

Evidence?

And the carnage albeit
> infrequent, only reinforces the perception among the insurance
> companies that any form of aviation is an underwriting loss just
> looking for a place to happen...

Evidence?

moo

[Newps]

Dudley Henriques wrote:

> "Denny" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Interesting bunch of responses, but nothing I have read so far induces
>>me to change my statement... Reread the first sentence of my original
>>post...
>>For those who suggest I am operating from lack of information, I have
>>been ground crew at internationally sanctioned aerobatic
>>competitions...
>>
>>cheers ... denny
>
>
> WOW!!!


Aerobatics performers are like bull riders. A goddamned stupid thing to
do, serves no useful purpose and you deserve what you get.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
>> "Denny" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>
>>>Interesting bunch of responses, but nothing I have read so far induces
>>>me to change my statement... Reread the first sentence of my original
>>>post...
>>>For those who suggest I am operating from lack of information, I have
>>>been ground crew at internationally sanctioned aerobatic
>>>competitions...
>>>
>>>cheers ... denny
>>
>>
>> WOW!!!
>
>
> Aerobatics performers are like bull riders. A goddamned stupid thing to
> do, serves no useful purpose and you deserve what you get.

What a wonderful sentiment. Go **** yourself!

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
>> Aerobatics performers are like bull riders. A goddamned stupid thing to
>> do, serves no useful purpose and you deserve what you get.
>
> What a wonderful sentiment. Go **** yourself!


There's a lot to be said for an articulate man.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
m...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>> Aerobatics performers are like bull riders. A goddamned stupid thing to
>>> do, serves no useful purpose and you deserve what you get.
>>
>> What a wonderful sentiment. Go **** yourself!
>
>
> There's a lot to be said for an articulate man.

Which one of us are you trying to nail with this gem of wit?

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:17:17 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
<dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in
.net>::

>Go **** yourself!

Ah, spoken like the current Vice President of the United States:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3699-2004Jun24.html

Baby Bush's administration may have a cabinet post for you. :-)

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:21:01 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
<dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in
.net>::

>
>"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
m...
>> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>>> Aerobatics performers are like bull riders. A goddamned stupid thing to
>>>> do, serves no useful purpose and you deserve what you get.
>>>
>>> What a wonderful sentiment. Go **** yourself!
>>
>>
>> There's a lot to be said for an articulate man.
>
>Which one of us are you trying to nail with this gem of wit?
>

Why, the inarticulate one of course. :-)

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
>> There's a lot to be said for an articulate man.
>
> Which one of us are you trying to nail with this gem of wit?


Not you... I'm on your side. He has his head buried in his ass.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
. com...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>> There's a lot to be said for an articulate man.
>>
>> Which one of us are you trying to nail with this gem of wit?
>
>
> Not you... I'm on your side. He has his head buried in his ass.
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>
>

Well that's good to know anyway :-) Perhaps if you could be just a tad more
articulate in the future please? :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Dudley

[Dudley Henriques]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:17:17 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in
> .net>::
>
>>Go **** yourself!
>
> Ah, spoken like the current Vice President of the United States:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3699-2004Jun24.html
>
> Baby Bush's administration may have a cabinet post for you. :-)

Not really a good segway for a political statement Larry. Perhaps from this
might be better.
"The cat ate his cat food today."
From this you could go directly into,
" Even though the cat ate his cat food today, I'll bet the Vice President
was so damn busy doing the wrong thing for that baby Bush that he forgot to
feed HIS ****ing cat!!!"
Now THAT's much better Larry. :-)))
DH

[Tina Marie]

In article >, pittss1c wrote:
> A show of hands: how many higher altitude, loose formation non-violent
> acts do people here like to watch?

About the only acro act I really enjoy are the Red Barons, who
probably do qualify as the above. Any act that subsitutes
excessive aircraft power for pilot skill will bore me quickly...

Tina Marie
--
http://www.tripacerdriver.com "...One of the main causes
of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way
to indicate successful termination of their C programs." (Robert Firth)

[pittss1c]

You are absolutely right... and I guess a vote for the North Ameracian
AT6 team should be out there too.

Tina Marie wrote:
> In article >, pittss1c wrote:
>
>>A show of hands: how many higher altitude, loose formation non-violent
>>acts do people here like to watch?
>
>
> About the only acro act I really enjoy are the Red Barons, who
> probably do qualify as the above. Any act that subsitutes
> excessive aircraft power for pilot skill will bore me quickly...
>
> Tina Marie

[Gene Seibel]

How about we do away with all risk and sit around in a circle and look
at each other. Naw let's not.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of Flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[John Ousterhout]

Tina Marie wrote:
> In article >, pittss1c wrote:
>
>>A show of hands: how many higher altitude, loose formation non-violent
>>acts do people here like to watch?
>
>
> About the only acro act I really enjoy are the Red Barons, who
> probably do qualify as the above. Any act that subsitutes
> excessive aircraft power for pilot skill will bore me quickly...
>
> Tina Marie


Sean Tucker is incredibly skilled but that style of performance just
doesn't appeal to me as much as the Red Barons. I love to watch them.
I also love to watch the Aeroshell T-6 team. Both of those teams fly
fantastic formations gracefully and I'd watch them again and again.

I'm always interested when somebody does aerobatics in an aircraft
similar to one that I fly, so a performance in a Cessna 150 is something
I will stop to watch.

Last year at Oshkosh when the Masters of Disaster performed I had white
knuckles the entire time.

- John Ousterhout -

[Montblack]

("John Ousterhout" wrote)
[snip]
> Last year at Oshkosh when the Masters of Disaster performed I had white
> knuckles the entire time.


You too. I was drained after watching them ....great show!! :-)

Our favorite airshow at OSH last year, by a slim margin over Masters of
Disaster, was the aerial ballet by those two P-51's. That show was absolute
poetry. Very moving.


Montblack

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Gene Seibel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> How about we do away with all risk and sit around in a circle and look
> at each other. Naw let's not.
> --


Kind of like here on USENET?

[[email protected]]

Plus, the prop segments are a good break to hit the can, or get some
food.
Back in time for the jets.

JG

[Dave Stadt]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
> > "Denny" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >
> >>Interesting bunch of responses, but nothing I have read so far induces
> >>me to change my statement... Reread the first sentence of my original
> >>post...
> >>For those who suggest I am operating from lack of information, I have
> >>been ground crew at internationally sanctioned aerobatic
> >>competitions...
> >>
> >>cheers ... denny
> >
> >
> > WOW!!!
>
>
> Aerobatics performers are like bull riders. A goddamned stupid thing to
> do, serves no useful purpose and you deserve what you get.

They serve a very real purpose. They keep the crowds out of the exhibits at
OSH which makes it much easier to get up close and personal with all those
wonderful aviation products.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
> Well that's good to know anyway :-) Perhaps if you could be just a tad more
> articulate in the future please? :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))


I'll see what can be done. Hell, I've always admired those who can do
aerobatics. I have a different skill set but that doesn't mean I can't
appreciate skillful flying of whatever type.

I have no doubt my early attraction to aviation was intensified quite a bit by
watching good flying. Some of my fondest childhood memories were of Armed
Forces Day, when the base aircraft would be open for everybody to crawl through.
It was a real treat for kids. We had the Thunderbirds come through Lajes Field
in the Azores once and I can remember sitting up on the hillside looking down on
the F-100s as they flew *below* us.

Pretty damned neat stuff.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Tina Marie wrote:
> About the only acro act I really enjoy are the Red Barons, who
> probably do qualify as the above. Any act that subsitutes
> excessive aircraft power for pilot skill will bore me quickly...


They were down in Rock Hill, SC a couple of months ago for a while. They'd taxi
out in the morning, do a formation takeoff, and then dissappear over to the
Chester, SC airport to practice their maneuvers. They spent the nights in Rock
Hill.

I had the pleasure of taxiing out right behind them one morning. There's
nothing like the sound of a Pratt & Whitney engine in the morning... unless it's
the sound of several of them in tandem.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Dave]

Hi Tina!

Then You must LOVE the Snowbirds!

They use the Tudor Trainers.......

Power is barely adequate to get a student into trouble... :)

Nowhere near "excessive"

Cheers!

Dave


On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:21:12 -0500, Tina Marie
> wrote:

>In article >, pittss1c wrote:
>> A show of hands: how many higher altitude, loose formation non-violent
>> acts do people here like to watch?
>
>About the only acro act I really enjoy are the Red Barons, who
>probably do qualify as the above. Any act that subsitutes
>excessive aircraft power for pilot skill will bore me quickly...
>
>Tina Marie

[Morgans]

"pittss1c" > wrote

> I was at the performer party immediately afterwards.
> Jimmy cracked the windshield durring that performance.
> I bet he sold a lot of airplanes that day.

How did he crack the windshield?

Jimmy came to our Aviation Explorer's base camp, and gave a presentation /
question-answer session. Everyone really enjoyed him. But as someone said,
he really liked to live life on the edge.

I saw the first season of the jet powered biplane. All I could do (while
watching his show) was stand there with a big stupid grin on my face. It
was just so funny, strange, weird, and just not right, but I loved it!

Both will be missed.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"malabo" > wrote

> Offhand I can't remember a formation aerobatic team that hasn't had a
> fatality, Blue Angels, Frecce Tricolore, French Connection,
> Snowbirds... etc. so I'm saddened but not surprised.

Sad, yes.

Had you ever seen the routine that was being performed? (Masters of
Disaster, I think it was called)
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Barrow]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
. com...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
> >> There's a lot to be said for an articulate man.
> >
> > Which one of us are you trying to nail with this gem of wit?
>
>
> Not you... I'm on your side. He has his head buried in his ass.
>
Not entirely...he sees it (probably) on the same level as auto racing or
other forms with high risk of catastrophe. This all for mere entertainment
as opposed to flight test where the purpose is R&D.

[Morgans]

"Tina Marie" > wrote

> About the only acro act I really enjoy are the Red Barons, who
> probably do qualify as the above.

I can't stand the Reds, because of the G*d awful noise! I think because of
the physiology of pressure waves on the body, I become nearly nauseated. If
they would sacrifice a little bit of power, by going to a shorter prop, or
one with more blades, or slow the RPM's a bit, I would indeed enjoy them.
As is, if able to (not working), I go in a building, or back to camp, to
escape the noise.

I like noise and airplanes. I like B-1 full afterburner passes. I like the
Harrier hovering. I like a B-17 taking off, and P-51's, and ....

There is something about the slow beating of big props (some of them) that I
just can't stand.

>Any act that substitutes
> excessive aircraft power for pilot skill will bore me quickly...

Shaun Tucker bores you? He has extreme power, but the stuff he does can not
be done by airplanes. Somehow he does them. :-)
--
Jim in NC

[Happy Dog]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
>> "Denny" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>
>>>Interesting bunch of responses, but nothing I have read so far induces
>>>me to change my statement... Reread the first sentence of my original
>>>post...
>>>For those who suggest I am operating from lack of information, I have
>>>been ground crew at internationally sanctioned aerobatic
>>>competitions...
>>>
>>>cheers ... denny
>>
>>
>> WOW!!!
>
>
> Aerobatics performers are like bull riders. A goddamned stupid thing to
> do, serves no useful purpose and you deserve what you get.

Idiot. Name one sport you enjoy watching that has an element of danger. If
you cant, explain why nobody else should. Prove your lack of mental
competence and imagination for posterity.

m

moo

[Happy Dog]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
m...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>> Well that's good to know anyway :-) Perhaps if you could be just a tad
>> more
>> articulate in the future please? :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))
>
>
> I'll see what can be done. Hell, I've always admired those who can do
> aerobatics. I have a different skill set but that doesn't mean I can't
> appreciate skillful flying of whatever type.

Well said. Do what you do well. Do what you enjoy.

moo

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Morgans wrote:
> I can't stand the Reds, because of the G*d awful noise! I think because of
> the physiology of pressure waves on the body, I become nearly nauseated. If
> they would sacrifice a little bit of power, by going to a shorter prop, or
> one with more blades, or slow the RPM's a bit, I would indeed enjoy them.


You want bigger blades; not shorter. The rasping noise the Red Barons make is
the blade tips going supersonic. Shorter blades go even faster.

Personally, I find that rasp is like music.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Matt Barrow]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
om...
> Morgans wrote:
> > I can't stand the Reds, because of the G*d awful noise! I think because
of
> > the physiology of pressure waves on the body, I become nearly nauseated.
If
> > they would sacrifice a little bit of power, by going to a shorter prop,
or
> > one with more blades, or slow the RPM's a bit, I would indeed enjoy
them.
>
>
> You want bigger blades; not shorter. The rasping noise the Red Barons
make is
> the blade tips going supersonic. Shorter blades go even faster.
>
> Personally, I find that rasp is like music.
>
Ummm...no, it's all a function of blade diameter and the corresponding
circumference of the prop at the tip. At the same RPM, the shorter blade's
tips are traveling SLOWER (due to the smaller circumference) than a larger
blade.

[Jose]

> Ummm...no, it's all a function of blade diameter and the corresponding
> circumference of the prop at the tip. At the same RPM, the shorter blade's
> tips are traveling SLOWER (due to the smaller circumference) than a larger
> blade.

This is true. However, it is not what is (likely) important.

When you change blade length, you need to change something else to
compensate (for what?). Depending on what you will be holding constant,
you will get different results.

Hold RPM constant and power goes down. Hold power constant, and RPM
must go up. If you want to do the same routine with shorter blades,
you'll need to hold power, not RPM, constant.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Grumman-581]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
m...
> There's a lot to be said for an articulate man.

"Profanity is the inevitable linguistic crutch of the inarticulate
mother****er."

[oliverledoux]

Hi
I read your message and I have to admit I totally disagree with you, I
have been watching aerobatics since I was a young boy and a reason I
became a pilot is from watching these guys putting their planes upside
down.
As someone previously stated we don't need any more reductions in
freedom, I like watching aerobatics and obviously a lot of other people
do, if you don’t like it just don’t attend the show.

Oliver.


--
oliverledoux
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

[Morgans]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote

> You want bigger blades; not shorter. The rasping noise the Red Barons
make is
> the blade tips going supersonic.

Close. It is the air over the blades being accelerated to supersonic
speeds.

> Shorter blades go even faster.

Shorter blades turned at the same RPM would not have supersonic airflow.

> Personally, I find that rasp is like music.

I don't mind a certain amount of rap. Theirs is too much. IMHO
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Jose" > wrote

>
> This is true. However, it is not what is (likely) important.
>
> When you change blade length, you need to change something else to
> compensate (for what?).

To use the HP being produced.

You could use wider blades, or add more blades. Efficiency would suffer a
certain amount.

None of that will happen, since a whole new prop system would have to be
invented, and that would be something less than inexpensive. (insert
sarcasim here)
--
Jim in NC

[Mike Weller]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:44:37 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> wrote:

>We had the Thunderbirds come through Lajes Field
>in the Azores once and I can remember sitting up on the hillside looking down on
>the F-100s as they flew *below* us.
>
>Pretty damned neat stuff.

I saw the Thunderbirds with the F-100s at Sewart AFB at Smyrna
Tennessee in (dang, when was the last Ice Age?). My younger brother
and I managed to find a spot away from the crowd on a little hill.
Back in the 60s you could actually do that. One of the solo pilots
went by our "hill", and as God is my witness, when he pulled up, the
tail didn't miss us by more than 20 feet.

Mike Weller

[Michael]

> Aerobatics performers are like bull riders.

Pretty much. Also like auto, speedboat, or motorcycle racers,
parachute demonstration jumpers, circus acrobats and tigtrope walkers,
and pretty much anyone else who does something that is both technically
demanding and dangerous for the entertainment of the crowd.
Interestingly enough, my circle of friends includes all of the above.
Birds of a feather, I suppose.

Consider for a moment the difference between a circus acrobat and an
Olympic gymnast. The skill level (and even the skill set) is quite
similar. The main difference? The Olympic gymnast performs moves that
are know to (expert) judges to be technically demanding, and performs
them just high enough off the ground to get the job done, over a
cushioned mat, wearing a simple leotard. Even the best sometimes make
a mistake and slip and fall, but the resulting injuries are rarely
severe. In the circus, the emphasis is on moves where it looks like
the performer will slip and fall, the leotards are flashy, and the act
is done dangerously high - some used to perform without a net.

In a nutshell, that is the difference between competition aerobatics
and airshow performance, though many refuse to admit it. The aerobatic
competition (or non-competition recreational aerobatics) is for the
pilots. The airshow is for the crowd. That changes things.

Aerobatic competition is primarily about skill. Even at the highest
levels, there is a hard deck below which one may not go. It may not be
much, but it's enough to give the pilot a margin - for an engine
coughing, for a slight error, for all the things that happen. At lower
levels of performance, there is more altitude margin. All kinds of
pilots fly aerobatics at times - even confirmed destination flyers like
yours truly. Aerobatic competition (and practice for same, and
recreational aerobatic flight) may not be safe as houses (or even
cars), but it's no worse than GA flying as a whole.

Aerobatic demonstration takes skill, but it also takes a certain amount
of willingness to take some pretty big risks to thrill the crowd.
Airshows have an absolutely horriffic safety record. Airshow pilots
are pretty much the most skilled out there, but the fatality rate is
orders of magnitude higher than it is for the nearest equivalent -
cropdusting - never mind GA as a whole.

Of course not all airshow acts are of the loud, violent, extremely
hazardous variety - but those are the ones that pay the bills and bring
in the crowds. Pilots might show up to watch the skillful and graceful
- Red Barons or some glider acro routine - but most of the crowd won't.
They want to see planes screaming toward the ground or towards each
other. They're not there to see a graceful aerial ballet - they're
there to see the performer play a game with death, and they don't much
care who wins. If you don't believe me, go to West Virginia on the
third Saturday in October. It looks like half the state (though
official figures say it's only 100,000) goes to the New River Gorge
Bridge to watch a few hundred idiots jump off with parachutes.
Inevitably some leave by ambulance. A couple have left by hearse. Now
that's entertainment.

In the interest of full disclosure - I was one of those idiots. I've
also done some airshow work as a demonstration jumper. I han't really
intended to, but I was in the right place at the right time, I had the
necessary skills (and yes, there is way more to it than jumping out and
pulling a ripcord, just like there is way more to bull riding than
holding on) and it did start out as one of those skillful and graceful
gigs. We would build a diamond, fly it around so it pointed at the
crowd, and starburst it at 3000 ft or so (about the minimum altitude
that would allow disentaglement and reserve deployment if the maneuver
went wrong, as they sometimes do). For the uninitiated, a starburst is
a timed maneuver where everyone drops grips at exactly the same time
and flies a predetermined course - it looks lie the diamond explodes.
That was nothing different than I would have done at a training camp
practicing for the world record attempts. It didn't take long for the
word to come in from airshow management - it wasn't enough. We needed
to do something down low for the crowd - they wanted the plummeting
towards the ground thing.

And next thing I know, there I am, piloting a stack in a hard spiral,
dropping people off the bottom with every 360, knowing that if one of
the drops goes bad (as they sometimes do) we don't have nearly enough
altitude to resolve the entanglement (which is a nice way of saying
hack the lines with a hook knife until we're clear) and get reserves
out. But hey - we're all skilled and experienced and as long as nobody
makes a mistake and we don't get some really freaky strong gust, all
will be fine. And it was. And it usually is. But it's not something
you can count on pulling off 1000 times out of 1000. And that's why
airshow performers rarely die in bed.

> A goddamned stupid thing to
> do, serves no useful purpose and you deserve what you get.

For those who get it, no explanation is necessary.
For those who don't, no explanation is possible.

Remember - little airplanes are rarely useful. Stupid and crazy are
not the same thing. And in the end, everybody dies. Not everybody
lives.

Michael

[Tina Marie]

In article >, Morgans wrote:
> Shaun Tucker bores you? He has extreme power, but the stuff he does can not
> be done by airplanes. Somehow he does them. :-)

Actually, yeah. Now, a few years back, we ran into his airplane and
his ferry pilot stuck in the same weather we were in Maryland.

Turns out that biplane has a complete, removable IFR panel. The
ferry pilot was talking about his experiences flying it in hard
IFR.

_That_ was cool.

Tina Marie
--
http://www.tripacerdriver.com "...One of the main causes
of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way
to indicate successful termination of their C programs." (Robert Firth)

[JJS]

"Michael" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> Pretty much. Also like auto, speedboat, or motorcycle racers,
> parachute demonstration jumpers, circus acrobats and tigtrope walkers,
> and pretty much anyone else who does something that is both technically
> demanding and dangerous for the entertainment of the crowd.
> Interestingly enough, my circle of friends includes all of the above.
> Birds of a feather, I suppose.

snip an awesome reply

> Remember - little airplanes are rarely useful. Stupid and crazy are
> not the same thing. And in the end, everybody dies. Not everybody
> lives.
>
> Michael

Well put, Michael!



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[tony roberts]

Airshows have no impact whatsoever on GA insurance.

To watch the pilots at a top airshow is to watch some of the finest in
the world. For myself, I'll sit and watch a plumber - if he's the best
at what he does.
There is a lot to be said for watching the best - whatever their talent
is. And in airshows, I'm watching the best of the best of the best. That
is the intoxication that brings us back every year.

Tony
C-GICE



In article om>,
"Denny" > wrote:

> I have long expressed my opinion that public displays of low level
> aerobatics entails risk vastly out of proportion to any benefits,
> perceived or real... Aerobatic displays do not improve public support
> for general aviation nor for the preservation of local airports...
> Aerobatic displays do not foster a favorable opinion of general
> aviation among the lawmakers of this country - who are exquisitely
> sensitive to the mood of the public... And the carnage albeit
> infrequent, only reinforces the perception among the insurance
> companies that any form of aviation is an underwriting loss just
> looking for a place to happen... I simply do not see any benefits to GA
> stemming from low level displays of aerobatics in front of the general
> public...
>
> denny




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Matt Whiting]

Denny wrote:

> Interesting bunch of responses, but nothing I have read so far induces
> me to change my statement... Reread the first sentence of my original
> post...
> For those who suggest I am operating from lack of information, I have
> been ground crew at internationally sanctioned aerobatic
> competitions...
>
> cheers ... denny
>

OK, thanks for confirming that you are operating from a lack of information.


Matt

[pittss1c]

I don't really know. They brought the plane back after that late
routine, and the windshield was split .
Could have been stress, overspeed, combination of the two or a freak
occurance.
Either way, they were drilling holes in the windshield and were tying it
back together with something like a lace.

Mike

Morgans wrote:
> "pittss1c" > wrote
>
>
>>I was at the performer party immediately afterwards.
>>Jimmy cracked the windshield durring that performance.
>>I bet he sold a lot of airplanes that day.
>
>
> How did he crack the windshield?
>
> Jimmy came to our Aviation Explorer's base camp, and gave a presentation /
> question-answer session. Everyone really enjoyed him. But as someone said,
> he really liked to live life on the edge.
>
> I saw the first season of the jet powered biplane. All I could do (while
> watching his show) was stand there with a big stupid grin on my face. It
> was just so funny, strange, weird, and just not right, but I loved it!
>
> Both will be missed.