Arlington NASCAR track dead?

[Rich S.]

Looks good for airplanes and bad for NASCAR fans.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002098387_nascar23m.html

Rich S.

[Ron Natalie]

Rich S. wrote:
> Looks good for airplanes and bad for NASCAR fans.
>
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002098387_nascar23m.html
>
> Rich S.
>
>
What was the airport impact? Sounds like quite complementary uses. Lots
of NASCAR tracks are adjacent to airports. Daytona is even right at the
big airport there. Most weeks out of the year the facility just takes up
space. Any time you have an event the size of a NASCAR race comes to town,
you get special traffic rules at the local airports regardless of how close
they are...there's a huge Bizjet crowd for these events. (Not limitted ot
auto racing for those of you used to filing all those silly notams in your
jepp binders. The Penn State home games pretty much swamp the three local
airports as well).

[Rich S.]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote:

> What was the airport impact?

A NASCAR track with that many seats gives rise to a TFR (stadium rule)
restricting aircraft traffic unless they are in contact with ATC. Arlington,
being an uncontrolled field except once a year during the EAA fly-in, would
be effectively shut down.

Someone with the text of the appropriate regulations is welcome to correct
and or refine this, but AFAIK, that is the gist of the impact.

Rich S.

[C J Campbell]

"Rich S." > wrote in message
...
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote:
>
> > What was the airport impact?
>
> A NASCAR track with that many seats gives rise to a TFR (stadium rule)
> restricting aircraft traffic unless they are in contact with ATC.
Arlington,
> being an uncontrolled field except once a year during the EAA fly-in,
would
> be effectively shut down.
>
> Someone with the text of the appropriate regulations is welcome to correct
> and or refine this, but AFAIK, that is the gist of the impact.

There is nothing in the stadium TFR that closes down untowered airfields. Of
course, the knotheads at Arlington never could understand that, would not
listen to reason, and continued to squawk like a bunch of wet hens while
making no sense at all. The text of the actual TFR is:

Actual TFR
FDC 3/1862 FDC PART 1 OF 2 SPECIAL NOTICE. THIS NOTICE MODIFIES FLIGHT
RESTRICTIONS PREVIOUSLY ISSUED IN FDC NOTAM 2/0199 TO COMPLY WITH STATUTORY
MANDATES DETAILED IN SECTION 352 OF PUBLIC LAW 108-7. EFFECTIVE 0303061100
UTC (0600 LOCAL 03/06/03) UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION
99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, COMMENCING ONE HOUR BEFORE THE
SCHEDULED TIME OF THE EVENT UNTIL ONE HOUR AFTER THE END OF THE EVENT, ALL
AIRCRAFT AND PARACHUTE OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED AT AND BELOW 3,000 FEET AGL
WITHIN A THREE NAUTICAL MILE RADIUS OF ANY STADIUM HAVING A SEATING CAPACITY
OF 30,000 OR MORE PEOPLE IN WHICH A MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, NATIONAL FOOTBALL
LEAGUE, NCAA DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL, OR MAJOR MOTOR SPEEDWAY EVENT IS
OCCURING. ALL PREVIOUSLY ISSUED WAIVERS TO FDC NOTAM 2/0199 ARE RESCINDED.
THOSE WHO MEET ANY OF THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA MAY REAPPLY FOR A WAIVER TO
THESE RESTRICTIONS: (A) FOR OPERATIONAL PURPOSES OF AN EVENT, STADIUM, OR
OTHER VENUE, INCLUDING (IN THE CASE OF A SPORTING EVENT) THE TRANSPORT OF
EQUIPMENT OR PARTS, TEAM MEMBERS, OFFICIALS OF THE GOVERNING BODY, THE
IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBERS AND GUESTS OF SUCH TEAMS, AND OFFICIALS TO AND FROM
THE EVENT, STADIUM, OR OTHER VENUE, END PART 1 OF 2
FDC 3/1862 FDC PART 2 OF 2 SPECIAL NOTICE. (B) FOR BROADCAST COVERAGE
FOR ANY BROADCAST RIGHTS HOLDER, (C) FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY PURPOSES OF THE
EVENT, STADIUM, OR OTHER VENUE. THIS RESTRICTION DOES NOT APPLY TO; (A)
THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES
INCLUDING AIRCRAFT ARRIVING OR DEPARTING FROM AN AIRPORT USING STANDARD AIR
TRAFFIC PROCEDURES; (B) DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, LAW ENFORCEMENT, OR
AEROMEDICAL FLIGHT OPERATIONS THAT ARE IN CONTACT WITH ATC. STADIUM SITE
LOCATIONS AND INFORMATION REGARDING WAIVER APPLICATIONS IN ACCORDANCE WITH
SECTION 352 OF PUBLIC LAW 108-7 CAN BE OBTAINED FROM THE FAA WEBSITE AT
HTTP://WWW.FAA.GOV/ATS/ATA/WAIVER OR BY CALLING 571-227-1322. PART 2 OF 2

As you can see, aircraft may continue to arrive at and depart from an
airport using standard air traffic procedures. Far from "effectively
shutting down" Arlington during a race, it specifically says that Arlington
would have to be kept open.

[Bob Chilcoat]

Around here, the Hudson river VFR corridor is shut down anytime a game is on
at Yankee stadium. Of course, no one in Flight Services knows the schedule,
so you have to check the Yankee Baseball website to see if you can fly.
Why they can't be required to keep all the required data in one place (like
FSS) is beyond me.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>

> Actual TFR
> COMMENCING ONE HOUR BEFORE THE
> SCHEDULED TIME OF THE EVENT UNTIL ONE HOUR AFTER THE END OF THE EVENT, ALL
> AIRCRAFT AND PARACHUTE OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED AT AND BELOW 3,000 FEET
AGL
> WITHIN A THREE NAUTICAL MILE RADIUS OF ANY STADIUM HAVING A SEATING
CAPACITY
> OF 30,000 OR MORE PEOPLE IN WHICH A MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, NATIONAL
FOOTBALL
> LEAGUE, NCAA DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL, OR MAJOR MOTOR SPEEDWAY EVENT IS
> OCCURING.

[Dude]

CJ,

It sounds like you have a different interpretation of "authorized by ATC'
than the folks against the track. Are you saying that one can go NORDO into
and out of that field during a race?

That's the complaints I was hearing, that many of the planes would be
grounded, especially experimentals.


"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rich S." > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Ron Natalie" > wrote:
>>
>> > What was the airport impact?
>>
>> A NASCAR track with that many seats gives rise to a TFR (stadium rule)
>> restricting aircraft traffic unless they are in contact with ATC.
> Arlington,
>> being an uncontrolled field except once a year during the EAA fly-in,
> would
>> be effectively shut down.
>>
>> Someone with the text of the appropriate regulations is welcome to
>> correct
>> and or refine this, but AFAIK, that is the gist of the impact.
>
> There is nothing in the stadium TFR that closes down untowered airfields.
> Of
> course, the knotheads at Arlington never could understand that, would not
> listen to reason, and continued to squawk like a bunch of wet hens while
> making no sense at all. The text of the actual TFR is:
>
> Actual TFR
> FDC 3/1862 FDC PART 1 OF 2 SPECIAL NOTICE. THIS NOTICE MODIFIES
> FLIGHT
> RESTRICTIONS PREVIOUSLY ISSUED IN FDC NOTAM 2/0199 TO COMPLY WITH
> STATUTORY
> MANDATES DETAILED IN SECTION 352 OF PUBLIC LAW 108-7. EFFECTIVE 0303061100
> UTC (0600 LOCAL 03/06/03) UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION
> 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, COMMENCING ONE HOUR BEFORE THE
> SCHEDULED TIME OF THE EVENT UNTIL ONE HOUR AFTER THE END OF THE EVENT, ALL
> AIRCRAFT AND PARACHUTE OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED AT AND BELOW 3,000 FEET
> AGL
> WITHIN A THREE NAUTICAL MILE RADIUS OF ANY STADIUM HAVING A SEATING
> CAPACITY
> OF 30,000 OR MORE PEOPLE IN WHICH A MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, NATIONAL
> FOOTBALL
> LEAGUE, NCAA DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL, OR MAJOR MOTOR SPEEDWAY EVENT IS
> OCCURING. ALL PREVIOUSLY ISSUED WAIVERS TO FDC NOTAM 2/0199 ARE RESCINDED.
> THOSE WHO MEET ANY OF THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA MAY REAPPLY FOR A WAIVER TO
> THESE RESTRICTIONS: (A) FOR OPERATIONAL PURPOSES OF AN EVENT, STADIUM, OR
> OTHER VENUE, INCLUDING (IN THE CASE OF A SPORTING EVENT) THE TRANSPORT OF
> EQUIPMENT OR PARTS, TEAM MEMBERS, OFFICIALS OF THE GOVERNING BODY, THE
> IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBERS AND GUESTS OF SUCH TEAMS, AND OFFICIALS TO AND
> FROM
> THE EVENT, STADIUM, OR OTHER VENUE, END PART 1 OF 2
> FDC 3/1862 FDC PART 2 OF 2 SPECIAL NOTICE. (B) FOR BROADCAST COVERAGE
> FOR ANY BROADCAST RIGHTS HOLDER, (C) FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY PURPOSES OF
> THE
> EVENT, STADIUM, OR OTHER VENUE. THIS RESTRICTION DOES NOT APPLY TO; (A)
> THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES
> INCLUDING AIRCRAFT ARRIVING OR DEPARTING FROM AN AIRPORT USING STANDARD
> AIR
> TRAFFIC PROCEDURES; (B) DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, LAW ENFORCEMENT, OR
> AEROMEDICAL FLIGHT OPERATIONS THAT ARE IN CONTACT WITH ATC. STADIUM SITE
> LOCATIONS AND INFORMATION REGARDING WAIVER APPLICATIONS IN ACCORDANCE WITH
> SECTION 352 OF PUBLIC LAW 108-7 CAN BE OBTAINED FROM THE FAA WEBSITE AT
> HTTP://WWW.FAA.GOV/ATS/ATA/WAIVER OR BY CALLING 571-227-1322. PART 2 OF 2
>
> As you can see, aircraft may continue to arrive at and depart from an
> airport using standard air traffic procedures. Far from "effectively
> shutting down" Arlington during a race, it specifically says that
> Arlington
> would have to be kept open.
>
>
>

[Rich S.]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> As you can see, aircraft may continue to arrive at and depart from an
> airport using standard air traffic procedures. Far from "effectively
> shutting down" Arlington during a race, it specifically says that
> Arlington
> would have to be kept open.

C.J. ...........

You seem to be correct as far as the wording goes. I wonder how this
translates to "real world" operations? Do the guys in the Blackhawk helos
interpret it this way?

Rich S.

[C J Campbell]

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> CJ,
>
> It sounds like you have a different interpretation of "authorized by ATC'
> than the folks against the track. Are you saying that one can go NORDO
into
> and out of that field during a race?
>
> That's the complaints I was hearing, that many of the planes would be
> grounded, especially experimentals.

Following published procedures in AIM is supposed to give you a safe haven
for ATC authorization. In fact, the letter by the administrator right in the
front of the book says so. Now, AIM specifies procedures for flying into
uncontrolled fields. That sure sounds like ATC authorization to me.

Besides, even if the folks against the track were correct, it does not
"effectively shut down Arlington." It only shuts it down for the squirrels
that are based there who like to practice aerobatics on short final, refuse
to use CTAF even if they radios, and who think nothing of cutting you off or
buzzing you when you have the right of way. There is a small contingent of
nuts there that thinks they own the airport and their real problem is that
if the track were built then the airport might actually have to be operated
like one.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:29:05 -0800, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>Besides, even if the folks against the track were correct, it does not
>"effectively shut down Arlington." It only shuts it down for the squirrels
>that are based there who like to practice aerobatics on short final, refuse
>to use CTAF even if they radios, and who think nothing of cutting you off or
>buzzing you when you have the right of way. There is a small contingent of
>nuts there that thinks they own the airport and their real problem is that
>if the track were built then the airport might actually have to be operated
>like one.

Pretty much a moot point, since the airport issues had nothing to do with the
decision.

For those outside the Puget Sound area, the deal was killed when the developers
offered to put up $50M of the estimated $300M cost...and expected the state and
local governments to pony up the rest, plus another $70M in road improvements.
The county also wanted a guarantee that the track would actually host one of the
top races (Nextel Cup), and the developers wouldn't agree.

Ron Wanttaja

[Ron Natalie]

Rich S. wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote:
>
>
>>What was the airport impact?
>
>
> A NASCAR track with that many seats gives rise to a TFR (stadium rule)
> restricting aircraft traffic unless they are in contact with ATC. Arlington,
> being an uncontrolled field except once a year during the EAA fly-in, would
> be effectively shut down.

Believe me, if you had a NASCAR national event there, they will most likely
put in a temporary tower. There's a TON of heavy metal that follows that
circuit around.

[Ron Natalie]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:

>
> For those outside the Puget Sound area, the deal was killed when the developers
> offered to put up $50M of the estimated $300M cost...and expected the state and
> local governments to pony up the rest, plus another $70M in road improvements.
> The county also wanted a guarantee that the track would actually host one of the
> top races (Nextel Cup), and the developers wouldn't agree.

Well, since International Speedway Corporation and NASCAR are essentially
the same corporation (yes believe me, there is a HUGE conflict of interest
there), chances are that they wouldn't build a track they didn't intend
to give a date (most likely stealing it from a non-ISC track).

Of course, the goal of any sports franchise is to bilk as much benefits
out of the local taxpayers as possible. Goes without saying...

[Matt Whiting]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> Ron Wanttaja wrote:
>
>>
>> For those outside the Puget Sound area, the deal was killed when the
>> developers
>> offered to put up $50M of the estimated $300M cost...and expected the
>> state and
>> local governments to pony up the rest, plus another $70M in road
>> improvements.
>> The county also wanted a guarantee that the track would actually host
>> one of the
>> top races (Nextel Cup), and the developers wouldn't agree.
>
>
> Well, since International Speedway Corporation and NASCAR are essentially
> the same corporation (yes believe me, there is a HUGE conflict of interest
> there), chances are that they wouldn't build a track they didn't intend
> to give a date (most likely stealing it from a non-ISC track).
>
> Of course, the goal of any sports franchise is to bilk as much benefits
> out of the local taxpayers as possible. Goes without saying...

That's for sure. I wonder if there is a community anywhere that has
actually had a net economic benefit from a sports stadium?


Matt

[Rich S.]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>
> Believe me, if you had a NASCAR national event there, they will most
> likely
> put in a temporary tower. There's a TON of heavy metal that follows that
> circuit around.

"Believe me". . . Now where have I heard that before??? Is that anything
like "trust me, I won't (snipped by the gross police)". :)

Rich S.

[John Stricker]

Absolutely. Just not recently since construction costs have soared. Ask
the people in KC if the Truman Sports Complex has had a net economic benefit
over the past 30 years. Then ask them if they approved the tax issue on
improvements this last election.

(answers: yes and no)

John Stricker

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Ron Natalie wrote:
>
>> Ron Wanttaja wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> For those outside the Puget Sound area, the deal was killed when the
>>> developers
>>> offered to put up $50M of the estimated $300M cost...and expected the
>>> state and
>>> local governments to pony up the rest, plus another $70M in road
>>> improvements.
>>> The county also wanted a guarantee that the track would actually host
>>> one of the
>>> top races (Nextel Cup), and the developers wouldn't agree.
>>
>>
>> Well, since International Speedway Corporation and NASCAR are essentially
>> the same corporation (yes believe me, there is a HUGE conflict of
>> interest
>> there), chances are that they wouldn't build a track they didn't intend
>> to give a date (most likely stealing it from a non-ISC track).
>>
>> Of course, the goal of any sports franchise is to bilk as much benefits
>> out of the local taxpayers as possible. Goes without saying...
>
> That's for sure. I wonder if there is a community anywhere that has
> actually had a net economic benefit from a sports stadium?
>
>
> Matt
>

[Barnyard BOb -]

>Absolutely. Just not recently since construction costs have soared. Ask
>the people in KC if the Truman Sports Complex has had a net economic benefit
>over the past 30 years. Then ask them if they approved the tax issue on
>improvements this last election.
>
>(answers: yes and no)
>
>John Stricker
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Say, Steakbreath...
Where the H__ have you been?
Herding heifers in the Kansass heat?


Barnyard BOb - too klose to KC for komfort

[Matt Whiting]

John Stricker wrote:

> Absolutely. Just not recently since construction costs have soared. Ask
> the people in KC if the Truman Sports Complex has had a net economic benefit
> over the past 30 years. Then ask them if they approved the tax issue on
> improvements this last election.
>
> (answers: yes and no)

That makes no sense. If they really felt the complex has had economic
value, they would have approved improvements to keep it valuable. Or
were the improvements just fluff to cater to corporate big-wigs or some
such?


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Barnyard BOb - wrote:

>
>>Absolutely. Just not recently since construction costs have soared. Ask
>>the people in KC if the Truman Sports Complex has had a net economic benefit
>>over the past 30 years. Then ask them if they approved the tax issue on
>>improvements this last election.
>>
>>(answers: yes and no)
>>
>>John Stricker
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Say, Steakbreath...
> Where the H__ have you been?
> Herding heifers in the Kansass heat?
>
>
> Barnyard BOb - too klose to KC for komfort

If you'd stay upwind it wouldn't be so bad...


Matt

[John Stricker]

You'd have to ask Unka Bob about it more than me, but the issue with the
renovation is complicated. I'm sure he's one that will agree that the
complex has been an economic boon for the area but I bet he voted against
the tax issue.

For one thing, there has been a 30 year rivalry between KC, KS and KC, MO
over the complex. Brawls have broken out over the fact that KC, MO
residents get first shot at season tickets since it's on the MO side of the
river. MO residents have always felt like the KS side, where a lot of KC
residents prefer to live due to lower taxes, especially the wealthier ones,
have taken a free ride on the backs of the MO citizens since they bear the
brunt of the taxes for the complex and the tax issue was, again, on the MO
side of the river.

OTOH, the new KS Speedway is on the KS side of the city and the MO residents
didn't pay for any of that. Right now, it's making some money. We'll see
if it's half as successful as the Truman sports complex in 30 years.

John Stricker

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> John Stricker wrote:
>
>> Absolutely. Just not recently since construction costs have soared. Ask
>> the people in KC if the Truman Sports Complex has had a net economic
>> benefit over the past 30 years. Then ask them if they approved the tax
>> issue on improvements this last election.
>>
>> (answers: yes and no)
>
> That makes no sense. If they really felt the complex has had economic
> value, they would have approved improvements to keep it valuable. Or were
> the improvements just fluff to cater to corporate big-wigs or some such?
>
>
> Matt
>

[RobertR237]

>
>Absolutely. Just not recently since construction costs have soared. Ask
>the people in KC if the Truman Sports Complex has had a net economic benefit
>over the past 30 years. Then ask them if they approved the tax issue on
>improvements this last election.
>
>(answers: yes and no)
>
>John Stricker
>
>"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>> Ron Natalie wrote:
>>
>>> Ron Wanttaja wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> For those outside the Puget Sound area, the deal was killed when the
>>>> developers
>>>> offered to put up $50M of the estimated $300M cost...and expected the
>>>> state and
>>>> local governments to pony up the rest, plus another $70M in road
>>>> improvements.
>>>> The county also wanted a guarantee that the track would actually host
>>>> one of the
>>>> top races (Nextel Cup), and the developers wouldn't agree.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, since International Speedway Corporation and NASCAR are essentially
>>> the same corporation (yes believe me, there is a HUGE conflict of
>>> interest
>>> there), chances are that they wouldn't build a track they didn't intend
>>> to give a date (most likely stealing it from a non-ISC track).
>>>
>>> Of course, the goal of any sports franchise is to bilk as much benefits
>>> out of the local taxpayers as possible. Goes without saying...
>>
>> That's for sure. I wonder if there is a community anywhere that has
>> actually had a net economic benefit from a sports stadium?
>>
>>
>> Matt
>>
>

We have all heard of the Trickle down theory of economics but when it comes to
sports stadiums and sports complexes, the correct name if "Trickle Up
Economics". That means that everybody in the community will by way of
increased taxes to build and support the complex will have their money trickle
up to the super rich owners of the teams and are the only benefactors of the
centers. The worst part of it all is that people seem to ignore all the facts
in some mistaken loyality to these sports enterprises. I have watched all this
crap occur three separate times in the last 10 years in Houston and couldn't
believe my eyes. Now I have seen it occur again in Arlington Texas, as those
people who were already paying through the nose for the Texas Rangers, voted to
tax their asses off to get the Dallas Cowboys Football team. And NO, they
Cowboys don't intend to change their name either.

While a few people in each community receive great benefits from these sports
stadiums, that benefit is always at the cost of the tax paying citizens, not
from outside the community. Even though Houston claims to have received
millions in economic benefit from hosting the Superbowl, the reality was that
it cost even more millions for the city to host it. The taxpayers paid for the
stadium, paid for the preparations, paid for the thousands of hours of police
overtime to provide security, and paid for the cleanup after all the drunken
fans left tons of trash littering the city.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[RobertR237]

>
>> Absolutely. Just not recently since construction costs have soared. Ask
>> the people in KC if the Truman Sports Complex has had a net economic
>benefit
>> over the past 30 years. Then ask them if they approved the tax issue on
>> improvements this last election.
>>
>> (answers: yes and no)
>
>That makes no sense. If they really felt the complex has had economic
>value, they would have approved improvements to keep it valuable. Or
>were the improvements just fluff to cater to corporate big-wigs or some
>such?
>
>
>Matt

You mean like the 200+ Million spent on renovations to the Houston Astodome to
pacify the Houston Oilers with new exceutive suites only to have them packup
and leave a couple of years later because the city didn't vote them a new $500
million stadium entirely at taxpayer expense? There is not a new statium being
built anywhere in this country that is NOT just fluff to cater to the corporate
big-wigs.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Matt Whiting]

John Stricker wrote:

> You'd have to ask Unka Bob about it more than me, but the issue with the
> renovation is complicated. I'm sure he's one that will agree that the
> complex has been an economic boon for the area but I bet he voted against
> the tax issue.
>
> For one thing, there has been a 30 year rivalry between KC, KS and KC, MO
> over the complex. Brawls have broken out over the fact that KC, MO
> residents get first shot at season tickets since it's on the MO side of the
> river. MO residents have always felt like the KS side, where a lot of KC
> residents prefer to live due to lower taxes, especially the wealthier ones,
> have taken a free ride on the backs of the MO citizens since they bear the
> brunt of the taxes for the complex and the tax issue was, again, on the MO
> side of the river.
>
> OTOH, the new KS Speedway is on the KS side of the city and the MO residents
> didn't pay for any of that. Right now, it's making some money. We'll see
> if it's half as successful as the Truman sports complex in 30 years.

Making money in what way? Most analyses I've seen of sports complexes
show that while they may make money at the operations level, they never
return the initial capital investment made by the taxpayers. Why do you
think that more private investors don't build sports stadiums? Trust
me, if they REALLY made money, it wouldn't require government support to
build them.


Matt

[Andy Asberry]

On 25 Nov 2004 15:50:29 GMT, (RobertR237)
wrote:


>
>We have all heard of the Trickle down theory of economics but when it comes to
>sports stadiums and sports complexes, the correct name if "Trickle Up
>Economics". That means that everybody in the community will by way of
>increased taxes to build and support the complex will have their money trickle
>up to the super rich owners of the teams and are the only benefactors of the
>centers. The worst part of it all is that people seem to ignore all the facts
>in some mistaken loyality to these sports enterprises. I have watched all this
>crap occur three separate times in the last 10 years in Houston and couldn't
>believe my eyes. Now I have seen it occur again in Arlington Texas, as those
>people who were already paying through the nose for the Texas Rangers, voted to
>tax their asses off to get the Dallas Cowboys Football team. And NO, they
>Cowboys don't intend to change their name either.
>
>While a few people in each community receive great benefits from these sports
>stadiums, that benefit is always at the cost of the tax paying citizens, not
>from outside the community. Even though Houston claims to have received
>millions in economic benefit from hosting the Superbowl, the reality was that
>it cost even more millions for the city to host it. The taxpayers paid for the
>stadium, paid for the preparations, paid for the thousands of hours of police
>overtime to provide security, and paid for the cleanup after all the drunken
>fans left tons of trash littering the city.
>
>
>Bob Reed
>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
>"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
>pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
>(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

You are absolutely correct.

I lived in Arlington for 32 years and have had my business there for
27 years. It is only a half mile from Ameriquest Field, formerly the
Ballpark at Arlington. The traffic on game day is horrific. When the
Ballpark deal was on the ballot, they promised all sorts of
development around it. The only new businesses I know of are sports
stores in the stadium.

They promised the same thing for the new Cowboy stadium. My question
is why there hasn't been all this development around Texas Stadium
(their current home). The only businesses near there are freight
companies.

I'm surprised there was not an uprising of Texas Eastern Star and Free
Mason members over this. It will literally be in the backyard of the
state Eastern Star retirement home.

I'm looking for a suitable location to move my business. Their loss?
Only about $30,000 annual sales tax revenue plus inventory and
personal property tax.

[RobertR237]

>
>
>>
>>We have all heard of the Trickle down theory of economics but when it comes
>to
>>sports stadiums and sports complexes, the correct name if "Trickle Up
>>Economics". That means that everybody in the community will by way of
>>increased taxes to build and support the complex will have their money
>trickle
>>up to the super rich owners of the teams and are the only benefactors of the
>>centers. The worst part of it all is that people seem to ignore all the
>facts
>>in some mistaken loyality to these sports enterprises. I have watched all
>this
>>crap occur three separate times in the last 10 years in Houston and couldn't
>>believe my eyes. Now I have seen it occur again in Arlington Texas, as
>those
>>people who were already paying through the nose for the Texas Rangers, voted
>to
>>tax their asses off to get the Dallas Cowboys Football team. And NO, they
>>Cowboys don't intend to change their name either.
>>
>>While a few people in each community receive great benefits from these
>sports
>>stadiums, that benefit is always at the cost of the tax paying citizens, not
>>from outside the community. Even though Houston claims to have received
>>millions in economic benefit from hosting the Superbowl, the reality was
>that
>>it cost even more millions for the city to host it. The taxpayers paid for
>the
>>stadium, paid for the preparations, paid for the thousands of hours of
>police
>>overtime to provide security, and paid for the cleanup after all the drunken
>>fans left tons of trash littering the city.
>>
>>
>>Bob Reed
>>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
>>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>>
>>"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
>>pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
>>(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
>
>You are absolutely correct.
>
>I lived in Arlington for 32 years and have had my business there for
>27 years. It is only a half mile from Ameriquest Field, formerly the
>Ballpark at Arlington. The traffic on game day is horrific. When the
>Ballpark deal was on the ballot, they promised all sorts of
>development around it. The only new businesses I know of are sports
>stores in the stadium.
>
>They promised the same thing for the new Cowboy stadium. My question
>is why there hasn't been all this development around Texas Stadium
>(their current home). The only businesses near there are freight
>companies.
>
>I'm surprised there was not an uprising of Texas Eastern Star and Free
>Mason members over this. It will literally be in the backyard of the
>state Eastern Star retirement home.
>
>I'm looking for a suitable location to move my business. Their loss?
>Only about $30,000 annual sales tax revenue plus inventory and
>personal property tax.
>

I checked on the property tax for homes in the Arlington area and what has all
the big stadiums and such done for property tax, make them higher than other
areas of Dallas. Now, they will have higher sales taxes as well. Yes, the
area around Irving Stadium has been a total loss and nothing has developed
around it, at least not because of it.

I am looking at the Garland or Rockwall area but still haven't made a decision
yet.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Capt.Doug]

>"Matt Whiting" wrote in message > If you'd stay upwind it wouldn't be so
>bad...

You definitely want Bob to stay downwind of you.

D.

[John Stricker]

Depends on the time frame.

In KC's case, the complex has been hosting games for 32 years, both baseball
and football, at the same location with two stadiums. This kept the land
acquisition costs down, relatively speaking, and shared parking and other
facilities. The architect of the Truman complex was really ingenious in how
little it actually cost, although at the time everyone was screaming
extravagance. The cost of the stadium when completed, including both the
football and baseball stadiums, as well as all parking and support
requirements was $43 million dollars. In today's dollars, that is about
$195 million, for TWO stadiums, so when I say the architect was an ingenious
fellow, I'm not kidding.

Fast forward now to 2004. 32 seasons of professional football and baseball.
Untold numbers of concerts and other special events. Look at the
development in the area of hotels/motels and other ancillary businesses. On
gameday in KC, you can't find a hotel room within 10 miles of the stadium
for Saturday and Sunday nights. Figure the room tax revenue on that for 32
years. Figure the amount the stadium pays annually for utilities. Salaries
(and their accompanying withholdings) for 32 years for about 100 games per
season of professional sports. Think all that food and beer sold there is
just made there? Hardly.

The problems I see with stadiums and other high capital endeavors is that
many areas don't keep them for 30+ years so that they can actually recoup
the massive investment required. In addition, by building it in the late
60's/early 70's, construction costs were a pittance compared to today's
prices. If you don't keep, and use, a massive capital expenditure long
enough to recoup it's initial investment, you're a fool, and that's true of
anything from new cars to sports stadiums.

You also have to consider the very real and tangible issue of community
pride and use. Libraries and museums will never make their money back,
EVER. But we still expect the governments to help build and maintain them.
You could even carry the argument to municipal utilities. Why have the
government involved in them when we have to pay for their use? Why not just
let private enterprise do it? Simple, the capital outlay is so high for
something that the public (through a vote) may (or may not) deem as "the
public good" that private enterprise, in having to finance through
conventional means, could never make a financial go of it.

I'm not speaking in favor of or against new sports complexes, if ever there
is a local issue, that's it and I'm pretty sure that Milberger isn't going
to be home to any professional sports teams in the near future. All I did
was point out in answer to the question of "I wonder if there is a community
anywhere that has actually had a net economic benefit from a sports
stadium?" that yes, I'm quite certain that over the last 32 years KC has had
a major net economic benefit from the Truman Sports Complex.

So, the answer to your question is, YES.

John Stricker

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> John Stricker wrote:
>

>
> Making money in what way? Most analyses I've seen of sports complexes
> show that while they may make money at the operations level, they never
> return the initial capital investment made by the taxpayers. Why do you
> think that more private investors don't build sports stadiums? Trust me,
> if they REALLY made money, it wouldn't require government support to build
> them.
>
>
> Matt
>

[John Stricker]

Unk,

What, is the senile dementia creeping in? Didn't we just talk on the phone
for a couple of hours the last day or two?? 8-)

(then again, it could be MY senile dementia, so who am I to cast stones?)

BTW- I STILL have that $50 we have set aside to buy
steaks...............when you coming?

John Stricker

"Barnyard BOb -" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>Absolutely. Just not recently since construction costs have soared. Ask
>>the people in KC if the Truman Sports Complex has had a net economic
>>benefit
>>over the past 30 years. Then ask them if they approved the tax issue on
>>improvements this last election.
>>
>>(answers: yes and no)
>>
>>John Stricker
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Say, Steakbreath...
> Where the H__ have you been?
> Herding heifers in the Kansass heat?
>
>
> Barnyard BOb - too klose to KC for komfort

[RobertR237]

>
>Depends on the time frame.
>
>In KC's case, the complex has been hosting games for 32 years, both baseball
>and football, at the same location with two stadiums. This kept the land
>acquisition costs down, relatively speaking, and shared parking and other
>facilities. The architect of the Truman complex was really ingenious in how
>little it actually cost, although at the time everyone was screaming
>extravagance. The cost of the stadium when completed, including both the
>football and baseball stadiums, as well as all parking and support
>requirements was $43 million dollars. In today's dollars, that is about
>$195 million, for TWO stadiums, so when I say the architect was an ingenious
>fellow, I'm not kidding.
>
>Fast forward now to 2004. 32 seasons of professional football and baseball.
>Untold numbers of concerts and other special events. Look at the
>development in the area of hotels/motels and other ancillary businesses. On
>gameday in KC, you can't find a hotel room within 10 miles of the stadium
>for Saturday and Sunday nights. Figure the room tax revenue on that for 32
>years. Figure the amount the stadium pays annually for utilities. Salaries
>(and their accompanying withholdings) for 32 years for about 100 games per
>season of professional sports. Think all that food and beer sold there is
>just made there? Hardly.
>
>The problems I see with stadiums and other high capital endeavors is that
>many areas don't keep them for 30+ years so that they can actually recoup
>the massive investment required. In addition, by building it in the late
>60's/early 70's, construction costs were a pittance compared to today's
>prices. If you don't keep, and use, a massive capital expenditure long
>enough to recoup it's initial investment, you're a fool, and that's true of
>anything from new cars to sports stadiums.
>
>You also have to consider the very real and tangible issue of community
>pride and use. Libraries and museums will never make their money back,
>EVER. But we still expect the governments to help build and maintain them.
>You could even carry the argument to municipal utilities. Why have the
>government involved in them when we have to pay for their use? Why not just
>let private enterprise do it? Simple, the capital outlay is so high for
>something that the public (through a vote) may (or may not) deem as "the
>public good" that private enterprise, in having to finance through
>conventional means, could never make a financial go of it.
>
>I'm not speaking in favor of or against new sports complexes, if ever there
>is a local issue, that's it and I'm pretty sure that Milberger isn't going
>to be home to any professional sports teams in the near future. All I did
>was point out in answer to the question of "I wonder if there is a community
>anywhere that has actually had a net economic benefit from a sports
>stadium?" that yes, I'm quite certain that over the last 32 years KC has had
>a major net economic benefit from the Truman Sports Complex.
>
>So, the answer to your question is, YES.
>
>John Stricker

For some facilities, the answer might just barely be YES but for the majority
the answer, if not a major drain on the tax payers, is at best break even.
Even when the answer is YES,, it is a drain on the entire tax base to benefit a
very few. I would say that the original Astrodome would have qualified as a
major benefit to the Houston community when it was built back in 1965. The
Mayor of Houston at that time had a vision of his community and the dome was a
major part of that vision. Yes, he was flamboyant and rich but he also loved
Houston and spent most of his efforts in building the city. The Astrodome was
visionary at the time and designed as both an indoor stadium and a mixed use
stadium. It served as a home for NFL Football, College Football, ML Baseball,
convention space, rodeo, and a multitude of other sports events.

But then enter the era of rich egos who each wanted their own special stadium
and suddenly the Astrodome just wasn't good enough for them. The Oilers owner
Bud Adams didn't think he was getting enough money from the dome and demanded
200 million be spent to upgrade and add more executive suites. Then just a
couple of years after we paid the blackmail money to Adams, he returns wanting
even more with a new stadium just for the Oilers. The voters told him to go
screw and he moves the team to Tenn. So then, the Astros owner decides to do
the same thing, and demands a new stadium too or he would move the Astros
elsewhere. This time, the voters caved in and spent 300 million for a new
downtown stadium that has fewer seats, closable roof that looks like ****, and
no parking in a part of town that I won't visit in daylight much less after
dark. Oh yes, I almost forgot that now the tickets cost double what they did
and parking can cost $20 or more.

Next, we manage to pay hundreds of millions to get a new expansion football
team out of the NFL on the provision that the taxpayers spend close to 1/2
billion dollars for another football only stadium right next to the Astrodome
which is now setting unused and being allowed to fall into disrepair. The big
promise to Houston was that we would get a superbowl from the deal. Once
again, the taxpayers were convinced by multimillion dollar media campaigns paid
for by the only people who really stand to gain from the stadiums that it was
the only way to go. (OH, least I forget, the stadium is used for the annual
rodeo and concerts but everyone that I have talked with says it is horrible and
would rather be back in the dome.)

Not to be outdone by the Astros or the Texans, now comes the Houston Rockets
Basketball team with the same demands. Their stadium, which wasn't that old to
begin with, suddenly was not upto the standards of the NBA and if we didn't do
something quick, the NBA and the Rockets would leave town as soon as their
lease was up. So yet again, the voters of Houston caved in to the blackmail
and built another super venue for the Rockets. The total cost to the taxpayers
of Houston and Harris County is over $1 billion dollars. Oh, but it doesn't
stop there. That figure only includes the costs of construction and doesn't
include the ongoing costs to support those facilities and the infrastructure
changes which have also had to be made to accompany them. The downtown parks
have resulted in millions more required to handle the traffic and other
problems from the stadiums. The security issues of the stadiums have been a
nightmare which only grows worse. And to add insult to the injury, we are
still paying for the hundreds of millions spent on the Astrodome which now sets
empty and unused.

The worst part of all of this is that not only do all the taxpayers have to pay
for these facilities but the ticket prices have gotten so high that the average
person can no longer afford to attend any of the events.




Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Barnyard BOb -]

"John Stricker" wrote:

>.... I bet he voted against
>the tax issue.
=======================================

Of course, I voted against it, dearest nefoo.
In my shoes, only a total dummy would do otherwise.

I'm weary of wealthy Kansass freeloaders sucking up
stadium air and entertainment duty free, while this
poor overburdened taxpaying dupe never gets so
much as an invite. Let the stadium gates close, I say.
Let the Kansass folks take their turn in the barrel and
let the Missouri fans off the hook for the next 30 years,
if they care to be so burdened.

In all honesty, I think the Chiefs and Royals need to move on.
Sports is very big money now and KC is small potatoes. Perhaps
it's time for the billionaire owners and millionaire players to move
on to pillage the cities that can better afford them.

KC is a cow town.
Bring back the cows and stockyards.
I miss 'em.


Barnyard BOb - Moooooooooooo

[Barnyard BOb -]

>
>BTW- I STILL have that $50 we have set aside to buy
>steaks...............when you coming?
>
>John Stricker
=============================

How 'bout when the Chiefs build their new
stadium in Kansass on your dime/dollar. <g>


Unk

[Andy Asberry]

On 26 Nov 2004 01:42:10 GMT, (RobertR237)
wrote:


>
>I am looking at the Garland or Rockwall area but still haven't made a decision
>yet.
>
>
>Bob Reed
>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
>"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
>pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
>(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

In what area will you be working? Kids in school? I'm familiar with
most areas of the Metroplex. Plus traffic arteries.

[UltraJohn]

Barnyard BOb - wrote:

> KC is a cow town.
> Bring back the cows and stockyards.
> I miss 'em.
>
>
> Barnyard BOb - Moooooooooooo



BB
I'm on the way to KC Dec. 6-10 for a class for my work. NWS, our training
center is out by the main airport. I'm looking forward to some of that
moooolicious barbeque!
John

[RobertR237]

>
>
>>
>>I am looking at the Garland or Rockwall area but still haven't made a
>decision
>>yet.
>>
>>
>>Bob Reed
>>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
>>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>>
>>"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
>>pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
>>(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
>
>In what area will you be working? Kids in school? I'm familiar with
>most areas of the Metroplex. Plus traffic arteries.
>

UTSouthwestern / Parkland Medical Center area. I am looking to locate close to
DART Rail since an annual DART pass will only cost me $40. No kids in school,
she is grown and supposedly on her own but I am not sure what that means
anymore, seems to cost me more now than when she was in school. The number one
area on my list right now is the East Shores Country Club area of Garland.
Like the older homes with mature trees.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Barnyard BOb -]

>> KC is a cow town.
>> Bring back the cows and stockyards.
>> I miss 'em.
>>
>>
>> Barnyard BOb - Moooooooooooo
>
>
>BB
>I'm on the way to KC Dec. 6-10 for a class for my work. NWS, our training
>center is out by the main airport. I'm looking forward to some of that
>moooolicious barbeque!
>John
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm of two emotional barbeque hearts and minds, John.

I grew very fond of West Tennessee pork pit BBQ....
Memphis style, during my formative crop dusting years.
It's not an epicurean delight that a Connecticut Yankee
can readily forget....
if he doesn't get lynched before marrying into a southern
sheet wearing, bible thumping clan that's also famous for
producing the best corn based_tax free_ethanol that ever
graced the innards of a White Lightning jug. <;-)

Barnyard BOb -- Mooooooo and Yahoooooo

[Morgans]

"Barnyard BOb -" > wrote
..
>
> KC is a cow town.
> Bring back the cows and stockyards.
> I miss 'em.
>
>
> Barnyard BOb - Moooooooooooo

Hmmm. You *must* have a unusual sense of smell. I don't recall stockyards
smelling all that good. Although, given the choice between the self
important athletes, and the mooos, maybe that is the better choice.

KC has rather stunk up the field as of late, even with the paydays of that
particular group.
--
Jim in NC


---
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[Morgans]

"Barnyard BOb -" > wrote

> It's not an epicurean delight that a Connecticut Yankee
> can readily forget....
> if he doesn't get lynched before marrying into a southern
> sheet wearing, bible thumping clan that's also famous for
> producing the best corn based_tax free_ethanol that ever
> graced the innards of a White Lightning jug. <;-)
>
> Barnyard BOb -- Mooooooo and Yahoooooo
>
I did a run that produced 4 gallons of the White, just to see if I could.
Not bad, if I must say so myself. Around 178 proof, and smooth! <g>

--
Jim in NC
Jim (unleaded) in NC


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[UltraJohn]

Morgans wrote:
> I did a run that produced 4 gallons of the White, just to see if I could.
> Not bad, if I must say so myself. Around 178 proof, and smooth! <g>
>
Yeah and I didn't inhale either ;-)

[Andy Asberry]

On 27 Nov 2004 00:23:54 GMT, (RobertR237)
wrote:

>>
>>
>>>
>>>I am looking at the Garland or Rockwall area but still haven't made a
>>decision
>>>yet.
>>>
>>>
>>>Bob Reed
>>>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
>>>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>>>
>>>"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
>>>pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
>>>(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
>>
>>In what area will you be working? Kids in school? I'm familiar with
>>most areas of the Metroplex. Plus traffic arteries.
>>
>
>UTSouthwestern / Parkland Medical Center area. I am looking to locate close to
>DART Rail since an annual DART pass will only cost me $40. No kids in school,
>she is grown and supposedly on her own but I am not sure what that means
>anymore, seems to cost me more now than when she was in school. The number one
>area on my list right now is the East Shores Country Club area of Garland.
>Like the older homes with mature trees.
>
>
>Bob Reed
>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
>"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
>pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
>(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

There is probably not a better area for what you are looking for.
Maybe around White Rock Lake. Not all cities joined DART.

[Barnyard BOb -]

>>"Matt Whiting" wrote in message > If you'd stay upwind it wouldn't be so
>>bad...
>
>You definitely want Bob to stay downwind of you.
>
>D.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Great idea Capt Crunch, but there is a caveat.


Bob - ****ing upwind - not recommended.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Barnyard BOb -" wrote in message > Great idea Capt Crunch, but there is a
>caveat- ****ing upwind - not recommended.

Five days for a response- you been on vacation?

D.

[Barnyard BOb -]

>>"Barnyard BOb -" wrote in message > Great idea Capt Crunch, but there is a
>>caveat- ****ing upwind - not recommended.
>
>Five days for a response- you been on vacation?
>
>D.
===============================

Yes sir....

For the record, everyday is a vacation.
If I wasn't so fond of you, I might not have ever answered.

FWIW -
If you worked hard as a cropduster, you would have made enough
to retire 10 years ago.... you petulant, pampered wuss/puss. <g>


BB

[Capt.Doug]

>"Barnyard BOb -" wrote in message > If you worked hard as a cropduster,
>you would have made enough
> to retire 10 years ago....

Then I would have to spend every day with the wife- not good for our
marriage or my sanity. Five day trips seem to improve the home life.
Besides, I still have fun flying. I just missed out on a fun flight. The
flight involves moving a DHL A-300 from Bahgdad to Amman with a no-flap,
no-slat landing due to a little wrinkled skin from a missile.

D. (Lord knows it ain't for the money)

[Morgans]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote

I just missed out on a fun flight. The
> flight involves moving a DHL A-300 from Bahgdad to Amman with a no-flap,
> no-slat landing due to a little wrinkled skin from a missile.
>
> D. (Lord knows it ain't for the money)

Damn, that was one good, or lucky (or most likely both) crew that brought
that SOB back in that kind of condition. And wouldn't you #*%$*#%ing know,
the French standing by while it happened.

I am surprised with the damage, that the plane is not a total loss. It has
got to be hard to get the brown streak out of the pilot and copilot's seats!
<g>
--
Jim in NC


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[Barnyard BOb -]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote:

>>"Barnyard BOb -" wrote in message > If you worked hard as a cropduster,
>>you would have made enough
>> to retire 10 years ago....
>
>Then I would have to spend every day with the wife- not good for our
>marriage or my sanity. Five day trips seem to improve the home life.
>Besides, I still have fun flying. I just missed out on a fun flight. The
>flight involves moving a DHL A-300 from Bahgdad to Amman with a no-flap,
>no-slat landing due to a little wrinkled skin from a missile.
>
>D. (Lord knows it ain't for the money)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oh, so true.

Retirement can be stressful to the point of divorce,
so, work until the "death do you part" becomes
one's best option. However, one may care to exercise
that option later, rather than sooner. If later appeals to you,
stay the f__k out of Baghdad or... Bahgdad, Capt Crunch.
It's a big world. "Fun" exists elsewhere, even for someone
that considers cropdusting... boring.

P.S
Did you know cropdusters get shot at, too?
Ya just gotta be in the right place at the right time...
kinda like "Bahgdad".


BB -- fly with a kevlar seat and Depends

[Russell Kent]

Bob,
There's available industrial (I1 ?) buildings in the North Gardland / East
Plano area (see Shiloh @ Plano Parkway in East Plano).

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&countryid=US&addtohistory=&searchtype=address&cat=&address=Shiloh%20Rd%20%26%20E%20Plano%20Pkwy&city=Plano&state=TX&zipcode=75074&search=%20%20Search%20%20&searchtab=address


Russell Kent


"RobertR237" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >
> >>
> >>We have all heard of the Trickle down theory of economics but when it
comes
> >to
> >>sports stadiums and sports complexes, the correct name if "Trickle Up
> >>Economics". That means that everybody in the community will by way of
> >>increased taxes to build and support the complex will have their money
> >trickle
> >>up to the super rich owners of the teams and are the only benefactors of
the
> >>centers. The worst part of it all is that people seem to ignore all the
> >facts
> >>in some mistaken loyality to these sports enterprises. I have watched
all
> >this
> >>crap occur three separate times in the last 10 years in Houston and
couldn't
> >>believe my eyes. Now I have seen it occur again in Arlington Texas, as
> >those
> >>people who were already paying through the nose for the Texas Rangers,
voted
> >to
> >>tax their asses off to get the Dallas Cowboys Football team. And NO,
they
> >>Cowboys don't intend to change their name either.
> >>
> >>While a few people in each community receive great benefits from these
> >sports
> >>stadiums, that benefit is always at the cost of the tax paying citizens,
not
> >>from outside the community. Even though Houston claims to have received
> >>millions in economic benefit from hosting the Superbowl, the reality was
> >that
> >>it cost even more millions for the city to host it. The taxpayers paid
for
> >the
> >>stadium, paid for the preparations, paid for the thousands of hours of
> >police
> >>overtime to provide security, and paid for the cleanup after all the
drunken
> >>fans left tons of trash littering the city.
> >>
> >>
> >>Bob Reed
> >>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
> >>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
> >>
> >>"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
> >>pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
> >>(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
> >
> >You are absolutely correct.
> >
> >I lived in Arlington for 32 years and have had my business there for
> >27 years. It is only a half mile from Ameriquest Field, formerly the
> >Ballpark at Arlington. The traffic on game day is horrific. When the
> >Ballpark deal was on the ballot, they promised all sorts of
> >development around it. The only new businesses I know of are sports
> >stores in the stadium.
> >
> >They promised the same thing for the new Cowboy stadium. My question
> >is why there hasn't been all this development around Texas Stadium
> >(their current home). The only businesses near there are freight
> >companies.
> >
> >I'm surprised there was not an uprising of Texas Eastern Star and Free
> >Mason members over this. It will literally be in the backyard of the
> >state Eastern Star retirement home.
> >
> >I'm looking for a suitable location to move my business. Their loss?
> >Only about $30,000 annual sales tax revenue plus inventory and
> >personal property tax.
> >
>
> I checked on the property tax for homes in the Arlington area and what has
all
> the big stadiums and such done for property tax, make them higher than
other
> areas of Dallas. Now, they will have higher sales taxes as well. Yes,
the
> area around Irving Stadium has been a total loss and nothing has developed
> around it, at least not because of it.
>
> I am looking at the Garland or Rockwall area but still haven't made a
decision
> yet.
>
>
> Bob Reed
> www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
> KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
> "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
> pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
> (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
>

[Russell Kent]

Sorry, I thought you were looking for business space. You could always look
around my house (Springpark North subdivision, SE corder Renner @ Jupiter):
Collin county (better taxes), City of Richardson, Plano schools (I know, not
an issue for you now, but if you grandchildren move in ... :-)

Russell Kent

"RobertR237" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >
> >>
> >>I am looking at the Garland or Rockwall area but still haven't made a
> >decision
> >>yet.
> >>
> >>
> >>Bob Reed
> >>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
> >>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
> >>
> >>"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
> >>pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
> >>(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
> >
> >In what area will you be working? Kids in school? I'm familiar with
> >most areas of the Metroplex. Plus traffic arteries.
> >
>
> UTSouthwestern / Parkland Medical Center area. I am looking to locate
close to
> DART Rail since an annual DART pass will only cost me $40. No kids in
school,
> she is grown and supposedly on her own but I am not sure what that means
> anymore, seems to cost me more now than when she was in school. The
number one
> area on my list right now is the East Shores Country Club area of Garland.
> Like the older homes with mature trees.
>
>
> Bob Reed
> www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
> KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
> "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
> pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
> (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
>

[RobertR237]

>
>Sorry, I thought you were looking for business space. You could always look
>around my house (Springpark North subdivision, SE corder Renner @ Jupiter):
>Collin county (better taxes), City of Richardson, Plano schools (I know, not
>an issue for you now, but if you grandchildren move in ... :-)
>
>Russell Kent
>

Nope, need a residence with big garage for my plane. I am looking a many areas
but trying to locate close to DART center since I can get an annual pass for
$40. As for the grandchildren, shhhhhhhhh don't even thing it.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Capt.Doug]

>"Morgans" wrote in message -
> I am surprised with the damage, that the plane is not a total loss.

A team of US mechanics airlined to Jordan and then rode a C-130 into Iraq
with a spiralling approach. They patched the hydraulics and are patching and
replacing wing skins. The basic structure is good enough to ferry. The
captain for the flight has been practicing no slat/ no flap landings in the
simulator. Approach speed will be around 210 KIAS and about 10 knots below
max tire speed. Five of the seven mechanics had the runs by their second day
there. The logbooks for the airplane take up 3 pallets (not including the
current repairs). Someone figured it was financially viable to fix it rather
than scrap it.

D.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Barnyard BOb -" wrote in message > Did you know cropdusters get shot at,
too?

I get shot at just driving down the interstate. How do you return fire from
a cropduster?

D. (Don't shoot- I'm not a tourist!)

[Matt Whiting]

Capt.Doug wrote:

>>"Barnyard BOb -" wrote in message > Did you know cropdusters get shot at,
>
> too?
>
> I get shot at just driving down the interstate. How do you return fire from
> a cropduster?
>
> D. (Don't shoot- I'm not a tourist!)
>
>

You spray them with your nasty chemicals. They will that way die a slow
and painful death...


Matt

[Russell Kent]

Russell Kent wrote:
>Sorry, I thought you were looking for business space. You could always
look
>around my house (Springpark North subdivision, SE corder Renner @ Jupiter):
>Collin county (better taxes), City of Richardson, Plano schools (I know,
not
>an issue for you now, but if you grandchildren move in ... :-)

Bob Reed replied:
> Nope, need a residence with big garage for my plane. I am looking a many
areas
> but trying to locate close to DART center since I can get an annual pass
for
> $40. As for the grandchildren, shhhhhhhhh don't even thing it.

Some of the houses have three (2+1) car garages. Dunno if that is
sufficient. Rear entry (alleys) might be a problem though. I've walked to
the Bush station. It's a long walk. There's bus service to the station,
though (two routes!).

Russell Kent

[RobertR237]

>
>Date: 12/7/2004 8:32 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Russell Kent wrote:
>>Sorry, I thought you were looking for business space. You could always
>look
>>around my house (Springpark North subdivision, SE corder Renner @ Jupiter):
>>Collin county (better taxes), City of Richardson, Plano schools (I know,
>not
>>an issue for you now, but if you grandchildren move in ... :-)
>
>Bob Reed replied:
>> Nope, need a residence with big garage for my plane. I am looking a many
>areas
>> but trying to locate close to DART center since I can get an annual pass
>for
>> $40. As for the grandchildren, shhhhhhhhh don't even thing it.
>
>Some of the houses have three (2+1) car garages. Dunno if that is
>sufficient. Rear entry (alleys) might be a problem though. I've walked to
>the Bush station. It's a long walk. There's bus service to the station,
>though (two routes!).
>
>Russell Kent
>

Three would be great but some of those rear entry alleys are too damn narrow
for much more than a bicycle. My realestate agent says to wait until January
to put my Houston house on the market so I am in a holding pattern for the
moment.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Capt.Doug]

>"Matt Whiting" wrote in message > You spray them with your nasty chemicals.
>They will that way die a slow and painful death...

Wrong answer!

They'll sue the s**t out of you before they expire. A spasmatic lethargic
emaciated drooling semi-paralyzed plaintiff rolled out in a wheelchair will
garner enough sympathy from a jury to f**k up your life even if the SOB
fired first. The correct answer is shoot to kill. Keep shooting until death
is ascertained.

D.