Flight plan hell, Tales of filing an ADIZ flight plan

[Michelle P]

I filed an ADIZ/FRZ flight plan yesterday that went to the wrong Center.
Not once, not twice, not three times, but four times. It turns out that
even if you file with Leesburg FSS for a DC area ADIZ plan it can be
automatically routed to the wrong facility.

I called Friday evening checked weather, notams TFR's, etc. and filed
two flight plans. One ADIZ fro the next morning to get from Culpeper to
Frederick, MD and then onto Grimes (8N1). Great place.
www.goldenageair.org The other was for Sunday afternoon Westminster VOR
(EMI) to Hyde Field (W32) where my job is based. Yes you can file for
more than 24 hours in advance. The first flight plan went off without a
hitch. I called Sunday morning to file my work related super secret
flight plans and check on my previously filed flight plan suspicious
that it was already gone. It was still there!

I took off out of Grimes around 12:30 to pick up ADIZ flight plan over
EMI around 13:00. I arrived over EMI at 13:05 and called Potomac
Approach. He could not find the flight plan. I waited a few minutes and
called again. He said it was still not there. I was ****ed! I believed
it was lost and landed at Carroll County. I called Leesburg and Asked to
speak to the supervisor. He told me it was there and sent it again. I
took off confident that it was finally there. Upon climbing out I called
Potomac once again and he told me it was not there. By now I was truly
upset. I was going to be late for work. I thought they were screwing
with me. Some of the controllers know my voice since I fly the ADIZ/FRZ
so frequently. Some also do not like me. Improper service results in a
phone call to QA/QC.

Knowing I had a flight plan in the system, I called Leesburg again on
the air to air. The quality of their transmitter was poor and this added
to the frustration. I finally got the message across and she once again
transmitted the plan. It finally had come through. I was able to finally
get one my way towards Hyde Field with the requisite "remain clear of
Class B and FRZ". Once I landed and parked I called Leesburg and asked
to speak to the supervisor. He recognized my voice and starting
apologizing profusely.

It turns out that the default routing code for Flight plans originating
at Westminster (EMI) is New York center. Huh? EMI is 20 or so miles for
Baltimore? He went on to explain. In order to streamline things New York
center has control of flights from EMI north, includes EMI. Potomac
hands off directly to New York Center, taking Washington Center out of
the loop. A very short loop for Jets. To get around the flight plan
routing problem Leesburg has to manually change the routing for the
flight plan to make sure it gets to Washington, DC and then on to
Potomac. They failed to do this four times.

I asked him where to send the bill. he said "you can send it here but we
don't have any money to pay it."
So next time you file from the north over EMI Make you the Briefer
enters the correct routing code so you flight plan is available.

Michelle

[John T]

"Michelle P" > wrote in
message ink.net
>
> It turns out that the default routing code for Flight plans
> originating at Westminster (EMI) is New York center. ...
> So next time you file from the north over EMI Make you the Briefer
> enters the correct routing code so you flight plan is available.

This is a pretty well documented "feature" of the ADIZ. As soon as I saw
EMI in your story, I knew what was coming. :)

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

[Michelle P]

Well it was new to me. I usually do not try to enter from the direction.
Michelle

John T wrote:

>"Michelle P" > wrote in
>message ink.net
>
>
>>It turns out that the default routing code for Flight plans
>>originating at Westminster (EMI) is New York center. ...
>>So next time you file from the north over EMI Make you the Briefer
>>enters the correct routing code so you flight plan is available.
>>
>>
>
>This is a pretty well documented "feature" of the ADIZ. As soon as I saw
>EMI in your story, I knew what was coming. :)
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

John T wrote:
> "Michelle P" > wrote in
> message ink.net
> >
> > It turns out that the default routing code for Flight plans
> > originating at Westminster (EMI) is New York center. ...
> > So next time you file from the north over EMI Make you the Briefer
> > enters the correct routing code so you flight plan is available.
>
> This is a pretty well documented "feature" of the ADIZ. As soon as I saw
> EMI in your story, I knew what was coming. :)

Take Amtrak next time and stop bothering the Federal employees, jeez
how many Orville Wrights do they have to be interrupted by?

JG

>
> --
> John T
> http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
> http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
> Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
> ____________________

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:20:57 GMT, Michelle P
> wrote in
et>::

>I filed an ADIZ/FRZ flight plan yesterday that went to the wrong Center.
>Not once, not twice, not three times, but four times.

Don't you feel a lot safer from terrorism? :-)

[Jim Burns]

Gees!! Ok, now how long will it be before the news media blames some
innocent pilot for filing his flight plan "with the wrong facility"??
Jim

[Peter Duniho]

"John T" > wrote in message
m...
>> It turns out that the default routing code for Flight plans
>> originating at Westminster (EMI) is New York center. ...
>> [...]
>
> This is a pretty well documented "feature" of the ADIZ.

Documented where? I realize that pilots are required to be familiar with
"all available information", but in reality there is a practical limit to
just how much research a pilot is expected to do prior to takeoff.

[John Theune]

Michelle P wrote:
> Well it was new to me. I usually do not try to enter from the direction.
> Michelle
>
> John T wrote:
>
>> "Michelle P" > wrote in
>> message ink.net
>>
>>
>>> It turns out that the default routing code for Flight plans
>>> originating at Westminster (EMI) is New York center. ...
>>> So next time you file from the north over EMI Make you the Briefer
>>> enters the correct routing code so you flight plan is available.
>>>
>>
>>
>> This is a pretty well documented "feature" of the ADIZ. As soon as I
>> saw EMI in your story, I knew what was coming. :)
>>
>>
>>
>
This would explain what happened to me returning from New York over
Memorial day. I had filed with leeburgs and when I got near Golda
called up and they had no record of it. Filed from the air and it still
took a long while for them to get it. probable cost me 1/2 hours of
cirling to get back in.

john

[Doug]

I've never understood why ALL flight plans can't be available to ALL
FFS's, Centers, Approaches and even Fligh****ches. Type in an N number
and you get all unexpired flight plans for that N number out of one
central database.

This would stop this "what FSS did you file with" question.

Although there might be some way to use this to your advantage.

[LWG]

EMI is in New York Center's airspace. DMW (which is north of EMI) is in
ZDC's airspace. Have your briefer file DMW instead of EMI, and you'll be
ok.

Les

"Michelle P" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>I filed an ADIZ/FRZ flight plan yesterday that went to the wrong Center.
>Not once, not twice, not three times, but four times. It turns out that
>even if you file with Leesburg FSS for a DC area ADIZ plan it can be
>automatically routed to the wrong facility.
>
> I called Friday evening checked weather, notams TFR's, etc. and filed two
> flight plans. One ADIZ fro the next morning to get from Culpeper to
> Frederick, MD and then onto Grimes (8N1). Great place.
> www.goldenageair.org The other was for Sunday afternoon Westminster VOR
> (EMI) to Hyde Field (W32) where my job is based. Yes you can file for more
> than 24 hours in advance. The first flight plan went off without a hitch.
> I called Sunday morning to file my work related super secret flight plans
> and check on my previously filed flight plan suspicious that it was
> already gone. It was still there!
>
> I took off out of Grimes around 12:30 to pick up ADIZ flight plan over EMI
> around 13:00. I arrived over EMI at 13:05 and called Potomac Approach. He
> could not find the flight plan. I waited a few minutes and called again.
> He said it was still not there. I was ****ed! I believed it was lost and
> landed at Carroll County. I called Leesburg and Asked to speak to the
> supervisor. He told me it was there and sent it again. I took off
> confident that it was finally there. Upon climbing out I called Potomac
> once again and he told me it was not there. By now I was truly upset. I
> was going to be late for work. I thought they were screwing with me. Some
> of the controllers know my voice since I fly the ADIZ/FRZ so frequently.
> Some also do not like me. Improper service results in a phone call to
> QA/QC.
>
> Knowing I had a flight plan in the system, I called Leesburg again on the
> air to air. The quality of their transmitter was poor and this added to
> the frustration. I finally got the message across and she once again
> transmitted the plan. It finally had come through. I was able to finally
> get one my way towards Hyde Field with the requisite "remain clear of
> Class B and FRZ". Once I landed and parked I called Leesburg and asked to
> speak to the supervisor. He recognized my voice and starting apologizing
> profusely.
>
> It turns out that the default routing code for Flight plans originating at
> Westminster (EMI) is New York center. Huh? EMI is 20 or so miles for
> Baltimore? He went on to explain. In order to streamline things New York
> center has control of flights from EMI north, includes EMI. Potomac hands
> off directly to New York Center, taking Washington Center out of the loop.
> A very short loop for Jets. To get around the flight plan routing problem
> Leesburg has to manually change the routing for the flight plan to make
> sure it gets to Washington, DC and then on to Potomac. They failed to do
> this four times.
>
> I asked him where to send the bill. he said "you can send it here but we
> don't have any money to pay it."
> So next time you file from the north over EMI Make you the Briefer enters
> the correct routing code so you flight plan is available.
>
> Michelle
>

[John T]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message

>
> Documented where?

There is no official documentation I know of. I only know of this feature
from the published experiences of pilots on local mail lists and
discussions.

I do agree with your point, though. It's stuff like this that makes
transient flying in the ADIZ a bit risky. It may help for folks travelling
to the area to bookmark this link:

http://www.dcpilots.org

It has a searchable archive, but I admit unless you knew what you were
looking for, stuff like the EMI->ZNY link would be hard to discover.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

[Michelle P]

Since I was going into the FRZ I could not air file. I have to call on
the phone. That is why I landed.
Michelle

John Theune wrote:

> Michelle P wrote:
>
>> Well it was new to me. I usually do not try to enter from the
>> direction.
>> Michelle
>>
>> John T wrote:
>>
>>> "Michelle P" > wrote in
>>> message ink.net
>>>
>>>
>>>> It turns out that the default routing code for Flight plans
>>>> originating at Westminster (EMI) is New York center. ...
>>>> So next time you file from the north over EMI Make you the Briefer
>>>> enters the correct routing code so you flight plan is available.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a pretty well documented "feature" of the ADIZ. As soon as
>>> I saw EMI in your story, I knew what was coming. :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> This would explain what happened to me returning from New York over
> Memorial day. I had filed with leeburgs and when I got near Golda
> called up and they had no record of it. Filed from the air and it
> still took a long while for them to get it. probable cost me 1/2
> hours of cirling to get back in.
>
> john

[Michelle P]

It is a hiarcical (sp?) structure not an flat one. It cannot get from
one FSS to another without a request.
Michelle

Doug wrote:

>I've never understood why ALL flight plans can't be available to ALL
>FFS's, Centers, Approaches and even Fligh****ches. Type in an N number
>and you get all unexpired flight plans for that N number out of one
>central database.
>
>This would stop this "what FSS did you file with" question.
>
>Although there might be some way to use this to your advantage.
>
>
>

[Steve Foley]

Because the FSS Commodore C64 computers only have 64K of memory. They won't
all fit.

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've never understood why ALL flight plans can't be available to ALL
> FFS's, Centers, Approaches and even Fligh****ches. Type in an N number
> and you get all unexpired flight plans for that N number out of one
> central database.
>
> This would stop this "what FSS did you file with" question.
>
> Although there might be some way to use this to your advantage.
>

[Denny]

Michelle, when I visit the area I'll be sure to hire you to file the
flight plans and ride shotgun...
jeez, what a nightmare...

denny

[Mike Weller]

On 11 Jul 2005 17:20:31 -0700, wrote:


>Take Amtrak next time and stop bothering the Federal employees, jeez
>how many Orville Wrights do they have to be interrupted by?
>
>JG
>

As if Orville was wrong.

Isn't Amtrak owned by the Federal Government? The Post Office?

Mike Weller

[john smith]

I am guessing that the best solution is to request the ATC facility
Watch Desk telephone number from the briefer you file your flight plan
with and then call the watch desk from the ramp prior to engine start
and verify with the ATC facility that they do indeed have your flight plan.

[[email protected]]

john smith wrote:
> I am guessing that the best solution is to request the ATC facility
> Watch Desk telephone number from the briefer you file your flight plan
> with and then call the watch desk from the ramp prior to engine start
> and verify with the ATC facility that they do indeed have your flight plan.

Oh boy, personnel have to drop what they're doing and answer all these
calls.
They have enough problems just tracking and reporting hijacked
airliners.

JG

[john smith]

> john smith wrote:
>>I am guessing that the best solution is to request the ATC facility
>>Watch Desk telephone number from the briefer you file your flight plan
>>with and then call the watch desk from the ramp prior to engine start
>>and verify with the ATC facility that they do indeed have your flight plan.

wrote:
> Oh boy, personnel have to drop what they're doing and answer all these
> calls.

It's their job!

[Michelle P]

When I am flying out of or into the FRZ Directly I do call and get a
code before leaving the ground.
I was 40 minutes from my entry point and the approach control does not
have the flight plan until about 20 minutes before. I believed calling
FSS and verifying the existence would be ok since once they have been
filed and verified I have had only a couple of flight plans lost.
Michelle

john smith wrote:

> I am guessing that the best solution is to request the ATC facility
> Watch Desk telephone number from the briefer you file your flight plan
> with and then call the watch desk from the ramp prior to engine start
> and verify with the ATC facility that they do indeed have your flight
> plan.

[Peter Clark]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:11:46 GMT, "Steve Foley"
> wrote:

>Because the FSS Commodore C64 computers only have 64K of memory. They won't
>all fit.

I thought they were 16K Timex/Sinclair ZX81's?

[Michelle P]

ATP/Comm how much for the service?
Lunch?
Michelle

Denny wrote:

>Michelle, when I visit the area I'll be sure to hire you to file the
>flight plans and ride shotgun...
>jeez, what a nightmare...
>
>denny
>
>
>

[Jose]

> I thought they were 16K Timex/Sinclair ZX81's?

Ah yes, Sinclair. I remember working with a Sinclair Scientific
calculator - it reported the sine of 90 degrees as being 0.0000002315 or
something like that.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Stefan]

Jose wrote:

> Ah yes, Sinclair. I remember working with a Sinclair Scientific
> calculator - it reported the sine of 90 degrees as being 0.0000002315 or
> something like that.

Intel inside?

Stefan

[Michelle P]

Zilog.

Stefan wrote:

> Jose wrote:
>
>> Ah yes, Sinclair. I remember working with a Sinclair Scientific
>> calculator - it reported the sine of 90 degrees as being 0.0000002315
>> or something like that.
>
>
> Intel inside?
>
> Stefan

[Chris G.]

Both Amtrak and the USPS are corportations, not government agencies.

I believe Amtrak is a for-profit organization that is subsidized
(heavily) by various levels of government (Fed, State, & Local).

As for the USPS, I believe it is a public, non-profit corporation that
is also subsidized/funded by the US Government.

Chris

Mike Weller wrote:
> On 11 Jul 2005 17:20:31 -0700, wrote:
>
>
>
>>Take Amtrak next time and stop bothering the Federal employees, jeez
>>how many Orville Wrights do they have to be interrupted by?
>>
>>JG
>>
>
>
> As if Orville was wrong.
>
> Isn't Amtrak owned by the Federal Government? The Post Office?
>
> Mike Weller
>
>

[Steve Foley]

I never could get that 16K expansion pack to connect properly. I'd whack the
enter 'key' and erase everything.

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:11:46 GMT, "Steve Foley"
> > wrote:
>
> >Because the FSS Commodore C64 computers only have 64K of memory. They
won't
> >all fit.
>
> I thought they were 16K Timex/Sinclair ZX81's?
>
>

[Larry Dighera]

>"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:11:46 GMT, "Steve Foley"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Because the FSS Commodore C64 computers only have 64K of memory. They
>won't
>> >all fit.
>>
>> I thought they were 16K Timex/Sinclair ZX81's?
>>
>>
>
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:23:26 GMT, "Steve Foley"
> wrote in
>::

>I never could get that 16K expansion pack to connect properly. I'd whack the
>enter 'key' and erase everything.
>

That membrane keyboard would leave your fingertips in pain after
prolonged uses. The first thing I did was wire a standard QUERTY
keyboard to my Sinclair ZX80* clone MicroAce**.

ZX81 kits are still available:
http://www.zebrasystems.com/zebrasystems/zx81/index.html


* http://oldcomputers.net/zx80.html

** http://www.1000bit.net/scheda.asp?id=1013

[Peter Clark]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:52:22 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>
>>"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:11:46 GMT, "Steve Foley"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> >Because the FSS Commodore C64 computers only have 64K of memory. They
>>won't
>>> >all fit.
>>>
>>> I thought they were 16K Timex/Sinclair ZX81's?
>>>
>>>
>>
>On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:23:26 GMT, "Steve Foley"
> wrote in
>::
>
>>I never could get that 16K expansion pack to connect properly. I'd whack the
>>enter 'key' and erase everything.
>>
>
>That membrane keyboard would leave your fingertips in pain after
>prolonged uses. The first thing I did was wire a standard QUERTY
>keyboard to my Sinclair ZX80* clone MicroAce**.

Didn't you love it when you spent 30min loading a 16k "flight
simulator", but sneezed at 29min and had to do it all over again?

[Mike Weller]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:28:41 -0700, "Chris G." <nospam@noemail> wrote:

>Both Amtrak and the USPS are corportations, not government agencies.
>

Hit a nerve, eh? I think you missed some irony here

>I believe Amtrak is a for-profit organization that is subsidized
>(heavily) by various levels of government (Fed, State, & Local).
>
>As for the USPS, I believe it is a public, non-profit corporation that
>is also subsidized/funded by the US Government.
>
>Chris
>

And I hate to use smileys. J
JJJJJJJJJJ

>Mike Weller wrote:
>> On 11 Jul 2005 17:20:31 -0700, wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Take Amtrak next time and stop bothering the Federal employees, jeez
>>>how many Orville Wrights do they have to be interrupted by?
>>>
>>>JG
>>>
>>
>>
>> As if Orville was wrong.
>>
>> Isn't Amtrak owned by the Federal Government? The Post Office?
>>
>> Mike Weller
>>
>>

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:17:36 -0400, Peter Clark
> wrote in
>
>
>Didn't you love it when you spent 30min loading a 16k "flight
>simulator", but sneezed at 29min and had to do it all over again?

I wired a red and green LED to the audio interface so I could tell
when I had the level within the correct range. It was pretty
reliable.

I interfaced the ZX80 to a Speak and Spell for voice output:
http://members.tripod.com/werdav/speakell.html

And constructed an ultrasonic link to an X-10 controller for home
control. It was a great hands-on digital education platform.