Question about medical certificate and Zyban...

[[email protected]]

Hi all,

I am just about to start my private pilot training.

In fact, I have about $2000 on account and went in today to sign up for
everything.

Luckily, before signing all the papers, I stumbled on the FAA's
position that Zyban automatically disqualifies you from obtaining a
medical certificate. (I have been taking Zyban for smoking cessation
for about 7 months).

So, before signing everything; before taking lessons which would only
lead to a dead end; and before taking the medical exam, I would very
much like to know what my options are.

For example, one thing I learned today was that I had an option of
getting a sport pilot license instead of private pilot. BUT, if I had
taken the medical exam, and been disqualified due to my taking Zyban, I
would be forever unable to get a sport pilot license.

So, I don't know what to do. Should I just settle on a sport pilot
license, because since I have been taking Zyban, I am forever banned
from a private pilot license. Or maybe I can quit the Zyban for like 90
days, and THEN take the medical, and based on that duration of
abstenence (sp?) be eligible without jumping through hoops? Or,
perhaps I should just walk into the medical as-is, and see what the AME
recomends?

A note from the doctor who prescribed the Zyban taken into the AME for
the exam after how ever many days of abstenence would be required?

Sigh...

Please, any guidance with this would be very much appreciated. Kinda
frustrating that a heroine addict could EASILY lie their way into a
medical certificate. But, an honest guy who wanted to do the right
thing, and quit smoking could just as easily be permanently banned from
ever getting a private pilot license.

Thanks much!!!!!!!!

[Don Hammer]

I guess I don't understand why the Zyban for seven months. Have you
just traded one addiction for another? About 30 years ago I was a two
pack a day Lucky smoker and quit cold turkey. After less than two
weeks I forgot about them.

Good luck

[[email protected]]

Well, a little bit off the subject...

But, there isn't anything at all addicting about Zyban. Only thing I
noticed at all after I started taking it was that I no longer had a
desire to smoke. And, even if it is addicting, previously, my response
would be "so what?" Many people trade addictions when quitting
smoking, such as excersise, immersing themselves in reading, or other
hobbies, etc..

My doctor's just been telling me that if it's working, with no side
effects, that I might as well stay on it. The only problem with
stopping it is that it takes like 5 days for the effects to kick in.
So, if I stop taking it, and I feel the urge to start smoking again,
I'll have to wait 5 days after taking it again for the effects to start
again.

That said, I'd stop taking them right away if there was a reason to
(such as getting my pilots license). Up till now, it's just been like
taking a vitamin. Sure, I could stop taking vitamin's everyday. And,
I don't really notice any positive effects from taking them. But, why
should I?

And, I understand the rational why the FAA disqualifies people who take
Zyban: 1) It is also used as an anti-depressant, and instead of
getting involved with which people who are clinically depressed should
fly and which one's shouldn't, it's best to just ban them all. 2) In
some people, the side effects are definately contrary to flying, such
as seizures. 3) You can't really make exceptions for people taking it
for smoking cessation vs. people who are depressed, because you'd just
get people cheating the system by getting the doctor to cook the
diagnosis.

So, I'm not questioning (much), the blanket policy.

All I really want to know is what is my best course of action so I can
get my license.

I probably rambled on too much defending myself, which is probably not
really necessary. I just hope we can keep the conversation on track. :)

[KD Wilkerson]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Well, a little bit off the subject...
<SNIP>
>
> So, I'm not questioning (much), the blanket policy.
>
> All I really want to know is what is my best course of action so I can
> get my license.
>
> I probably rambled on too much defending myself, which is probably not
> really necessary. I just hope we can keep the conversation on track. :)
>

I'd check with the doc about stopping Zyban...seven months seems more than
long enough, but doc may want you to taper off.

Contact FAA Aeromedical in OKC and ask what amount of time you should wait
after stopping the medication before going in for your physical.

If you're unable or unwilling to ask FAA anonymously, go to AOPA and ask
there. You'll get a straight answer from current AME's who have good
information.

Best of luck with your training!

Regards,

Kevin Wilkerson
Evansville, IN
http://www.s6s.org

[Jose]

> Only thing I
> noticed at all after I started taking it was that I no longer had a
> desire to smoke. [...]
> My doctor's just been telling me that if it's working, with no side
> effects, that I might as well stay on it.

Staying on unnecessary medication is not a good thing, though it
enriches the drug companies. Ask your doctor if you "might as well get
off of it".

> So, if I stop taking it, and I feel the urge to start smoking again...

....resist the urge. You can certainly do it for =one= day. At a time.
Cigarettes are bad for the airplane too.

> All I really want to know is what is my best course of action so I can
> get my license.

Try this (after consulting your doctor and ensuring that it's safe):
1: Stop taking Zyban. Then...
2: Don't smoke.

Don't even hang around with people who smoke. Stay away from smokey
places. Don't buy cigarettes. Don't accept them either. And don't do
stuff that brings you in contact with them.

This is what non-smokers do. :)

As PILOT IN COMMAND, you will need to resist many urges, such as the
urge to go through that not-so-good weather so you can get home in time
for the ball game, or the urge to take off with just a wee bit too much
of a load, or the urge to skip a preflight because you're late and
besides you just flew the airplane and what could be wrong... Resisting
the urge to smoke is a good place to start. And you're already ahead,
because you are out of the habit. Your hands aren't automatically
reaching for a cigarette, and you don't have them in your pocket anyway.
It would require affirmative action to start again. So, don't start
again.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Don Hammer]

If you want to see why the FAA doesn't like it see -
http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_zyban.pdf It doesn't look much
like aspirin to me and is not used for depression.

Why not can the Zyban? Shortly after I quit, cigarettes started
smelling bad and I lost my desire to start again. After all these
years you would think it would be the same for you.

One thing you might consider - The internist that takes care of me is
also my flight surgeon. He won't give me anything that disqualifies
me to fly.

Guess you have to decide what's important to you. Smoking, taking
drugs, or flying airplanes. I know where I'd be on that.

[Sylvain]

wrote:

> All I really want to know is what is my best course of action so I can
> get my license.

step 1: join AOPA (see http://www.aopa.org/)

step 2: ask the question to the nice AOPA folks

--Sylvain

[OP]

On 24 Jul 2005 16:35:09 -0700, wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I am just about to start my private pilot training.
>
>In fact, I have about $2000 on account and went in today to sign up for
>everything.
>
>Luckily, before signing all the papers, I stumbled on the FAA's
>position that Zyban automatically disqualifies you from obtaining a
>medical certificate. (I have been taking Zyban for smoking cessation
>for about 7 months).

I would recommend a discussion with your doctor, (or another doctor)
about staying on or getting off Zyban. My wife quit smoking using
Zyban and the program was to take Zyban, reduce the amount she
smoked, then pick a day to quit completely. About a week after she
quit, she began to taper off using Zyban and in then stopped taking
Zyban altogether. The whole process took about 3 months. She
hasn't wanted a cigarette since. This for a woman who smoked one to
two packs a day for thirty years.

Good luck with quitting. Everything is better after you stop.

Ron

[[email protected]]

Well, I do thank you all for your replies. Though, I think that much
of the point was missed.

I do not have any problem quitting Zyban. I do not think that I will
have any problems staying off the cigarettes once I quit Zyban.

I am afraid, though, that because I have taken it that I may be forever
banned from piloting an airplane. Or maybe I have to be off the Zyban
for like 60 days and I'd pass with flying colors... But, if I go in
after 59 days, I'll get a big FAILED stamp put on the exam, which would
forever disqualify me from getting a sport pilot license (If that's all
I can get) -- or maybe even disqualify me from getting ANY license.

Some have suggested asking AOPA. Looks like it's a great resource,
regardless. But, it costs $39 to join, and right now, the flight
school has all my money.

But, I do sincerely thank all of you who have taken the time to
respond. :)

[Jose]

> Some have suggested asking AOPA. Looks like it's a great resource,
> regardless. But, it costs $39 to join, and right now, the flight
> school has all my money.

After you quit Zyban, put the money you save into a fund, and once it
reaches $39, join AOPA. :)

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[RomeoMike]

wrote:

>
> I do not have any problem quitting Zyban. I do not think that I will
> have any problems staying off the cigarettes once I quit Zyban.

Talk to your doctor and quit the Zyban. At some point you have to throw
away the crutch, and you've been on it plenty long. I do have experience
with this.

> I am afraid, though, that because I have taken it that I may be forever
> banned from piloting an airplane. Or maybe I have to be off the Zyban
> for like 60 days and I'd pass with flying colors... But, if I go in
> after 59 days, I'll get a big FAILED stamp put on the exam, which would
> forever disqualify me from getting a sport pilot license (If that's all
> I can get) -- or maybe even disqualify me from getting ANY license.

Unless there is an AME here, I doubt anyone can answer "how long" you
have to be off it. That's why the membership cost of AOPA is worth it.
They can answer questions like this. Some (of course not I)might say
that if you have been off the drug for a couple of weeks and are not
suffering any ill effects, why even report previous use? It's not like
it's an illegal drug. But spend the $39 for AOPA.

[[email protected]]

" Some (of course not I)might say
that if you have been off the drug for a couple of weeks and are not
suffering any ill effects, why even report previous use? It's not like
it's an illegal drug"

Honestly, not reporting the previous use is something that I
considered. (And quickly dismissed).

Ethics aside, I was under the impression that part of the exam was for
you to disclose any and all care providers, who would (be it
theoretical or not) disclose the usage to the AME.

But, regardless, as one who has jumped out of airplanes hundreds of
times, I have learned that the regulations are rarely put into place
arbitrarily. They are there to save my life, and the lives of my
potential passengers, and those below me, as well as to impart a level
of respect and confidence to the public at large.

[Dave S]

Here's what the big fuss is about Zyban:

It's an altered-dosage form of Wellbutrin. Wellbutrin is a psych med.
Look it up... I will not delve into the pretty much well known FAA
stance on psychotropic meds - its "not no, but hell no".

Also, Wellbutrin can lower the seizure threshold in individuals. This
means that it can become easier for you to have a generalized seizure,
which in my experience, having witnessed many, is incapacitating. It may
take 10 or 15 minutes to fully regain consciousness after such an event.
Once conscious, you still are wiped out, and off your game for hours
sometimes.

If I remember what the insert on Zyban said (Never used it, just an
ER/ICU nurse/Paramedic), you take it for 2 weeks then stop smoking. This
is in keeping with what most of the psych meds out there in regards to
their pharmacokinetics: it takes time to build up to therapeutic levels,
and it takes time for them to clear your system. The scientific phrase
for this is "long half life".

As others have said, deal with AOPA's medical staff. Also, while I
cannot recommend being dishonest on your medical application, it takes
less than 2 weeks for these kinds of drugs to clear your system. There
is no routinely performed test that shows wellbutrin in your system.
(most occupational drug screens are for drugs of abuse, typically 7
substances or less: coke, MJ, benzos, barbs, pcp, opiates, amphetamine
and one other..not to mention the AME's **** tess is for protien and
sugar to screen for kidney and diabeties probs, NOT drugs)

Use it if you must, then QUIT smoking, then QUIT taking the wellbutrin..
its only for short term use in this situation anyways. A few weeks
later all should be well. In that situation, I would have little issue
with not disclosing its use.

Seven months is excessive med use for smoking cessation. A few WEEKS is
more appropriate. Quit hanging around the smokers and it will be easier
to resist the urge (I know how powerful the smoker's group can be, from
a social interaction standpoint - several colleagues missed the
interaction and picked up smoking again.

Call AOPA and find out what the legal options are, and go from there
Dave

wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am just about to start my private pilot training.
>
> In fact, I have about $2000 on account and went in today to sign up for
> everything.
>
> Luckily, before signing all the papers, I stumbled on the FAA's
> position that Zyban automatically disqualifies you from obtaining a
> medical certificate. (I have been taking Zyban for smoking cessation
> for about 7 months).
>
> So, before signing everything; before taking lessons which would only
> lead to a dead end; and before taking the medical exam, I would very
> much like to know what my options are.
>
> For example, one thing I learned today was that I had an option of
> getting a sport pilot license instead of private pilot. BUT, if I had
> taken the medical exam, and been disqualified due to my taking Zyban, I
> would be forever unable to get a sport pilot license.
>
> So, I don't know what to do. Should I just settle on a sport pilot
> license, because since I have been taking Zyban, I am forever banned
> from a private pilot license. Or maybe I can quit the Zyban for like 90
> days, and THEN take the medical, and based on that duration of
> abstenence (sp?) be eligible without jumping through hoops? Or,
> perhaps I should just walk into the medical as-is, and see what the AME
> recomends?
>
> A note from the doctor who prescribed the Zyban taken into the AME for
> the exam after how ever many days of abstenence would be required?
>
> Sigh...
>
> Please, any guidance with this would be very much appreciated. Kinda
> frustrating that a heroine addict could EASILY lie their way into a
> medical certificate. But, an honest guy who wanted to do the right
> thing, and quit smoking could just as easily be permanently banned from
> ever getting a private pilot license.
>
> Thanks much!!!!!!!!
>

[Cub Driver]

>If you're unable or unwilling to ask FAA anonymously, go to AOPA and ask
>there. You'll get a straight answer from current AME's who have good
>information.

Yes, and use $35 of that $2000 to join AOPA. I'm not a joiner,
ordinarily, nor a magazine subscriber either, but flying is different.
You need an advocate, and AOPA is it.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Cub Driver]

On 24 Jul 2005 21:35:11 -0700, wrote:

>I am afraid, though, that because I have taken it that I may be forever
>banned from piloting an airplane. Or maybe I have to be off the Zyban
>for like 60 days and I'd pass with flying colors.

Look, all you need do is ask!

Ask AOPA for choice.

Ask the FAA otherwise.

There is a considerable difference between 60 days and forever.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[[email protected]]

I was on a "banned" medication when I took my physical. FAA in OKC
required me to be off for three months, then have a letter written by
my primary care doctor confirming that I'd had no ill effects from
being off the med. After that, my medical was issued. In my opinion,
if you go off the medication, there is no reason to mention to your AME
that you were on it...the form asks for current meds, not historical
meds.
Good luck. CPW

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Don Hammer wrote:
> One thing you might consider - The internist that takes care of me is
> also my flight surgeon. He won't give me anything that disqualifies
> me to fly.
>


That's potentially a poor idea. As a former Pan AM pilot said, "you don't tell
your AME anything unless you want to quit flying". I have two physicians. They
have never met.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

wrote:
> Some have suggested asking AOPA. Looks like it's a great resource,
> regardless. But, it costs $39 to join, and right now, the flight
> school has all my money.



It's more than a great resource; it's an imperative. Their medical department
can certainly answer your question definitively. Besides the monthly magazine
(which is the only flying rag I read), that alone makes it worth your while. If
you can't afford the $39, you can't afford the 3rd class medical either.

I wouldn't ask the FAA anything directly, unless it's from a phone booth using
an assumed name and cash. Assuming you do want to fly, that is....




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

wrote:
> Honestly, not reporting the previous use is something that I
> considered. (And quickly dismissed).
>
> Ethics aside, I was under the impression that part of the exam was for
> you to disclose any and all care providers, who would (be it
> theoretical or not) disclose the usage to the AME.
>
> But, regardless, as one who has jumped out of airplanes hundreds of
> times, I have learned that the regulations are rarely put into place
> arbitrarily. They are there to save my life, and the lives of my
> potential passengers, and those below me, as well as to impart a level
> of respect and confidence to the public at large.


Forget everything I previously said. How's the weather out there in Oklahoma
City?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Ross Richardson]

If you fly, you need to join AOPA. I have been a member for 35 years.
They are about the only ones looking out for us in Washington DC. The
$39.00 is cheap for what you are doing. Give them your credit card for
automatic renewal and I think you get a discount. That is what I do.

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI


wrote:
> Well, I do thank you all for your replies. Though, I think that much
> of the point was missed.
>
> I do not have any problem quitting Zyban. I do not think that I will
> have any problems staying off the cigarettes once I quit Zyban.
>
> I am afraid, though, that because I have taken it that I may be forever
> banned from piloting an airplane. Or maybe I have to be off the Zyban
> for like 60 days and I'd pass with flying colors... But, if I go in
> after 59 days, I'll get a big FAILED stamp put on the exam, which would
> forever disqualify me from getting a sport pilot license (If that's all
> I can get) -- or maybe even disqualify me from getting ANY license.
>
> Some have suggested asking AOPA. Looks like it's a great resource,
> regardless. But, it costs $39 to join, and right now, the flight
> school has all my money.
>
> But, I do sincerely thank all of you who have taken the time to
> respond. :)
>

[George Patterson]

wrote:
> Well, I do thank you all for your replies. Though, I think that much
> of the point was missed.
>
> I do not have any problem quitting Zyban. I do not think that I will
> have any problems staying off the cigarettes once I quit Zyban.

It's been over two years since I've seen the form, but if I remember correctly,
for your first exam, they ask if you have ever had a variety of ailments.
Smoking is not one. They also ask what drugs you are currently taking.

Fine. Quit taking the Zyban and inform your doctor that you are quitting it.
Don't mention it to the AME. My personal feeling is that you should answer all
the questions honestly, but do not volunteer any information.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Andrew Gideon]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

> IÂ*haveÂ*twoÂ*physicians.Â*Â*They
> have never met.

Considering that you need to indicate on the form for your medical all
physician visits, is this really significant? Cannot the FAA (or AME or
some clerk somewhere along the way) just get the sought information.

I don't recall, but I assume that there's some sort of privacy waiver for
that purpose in the form we complete.

- Andrew

[Gary Drescher]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>
>> I have two physicians. They
>> have never met.
>
> Considering that you need to indicate on the form for your medical all
> physician visits, is this really significant? Cannot the FAA (or AME or
> some clerk somewhere along the way) just get the sought information.
>
> I don't recall, but I assume that there's some sort of privacy waiver for
> that purpose in the form we complete.

No, the only such waiver is for NDR records.
(http://www.leftseat.com/Programs/85008.htm)

--Gary

[Ron Natalie]

wrote:
> " Some (of course not I)might say
> that if you have been off the drug for a couple of weeks and are not
> suffering any ill effects, why even report previous use? It's not like
> it's an illegal drug"
>
> Honestly, not reporting the previous use is something that I
> considered. (And quickly dismissed).
>
> Ethics aside, I was under the impression that part of the exam was for
> you to disclose any and all care providers, who would (be it
> theoretical or not) disclose the usage to the AME.

Yes, but no medical provider worth his salt would disclose any
information (even with the blanket waiver you give the FAA) without
an explicit authorization from you (or a court order perhaps).

Anyhow, the FAA has a dim view if they ever did find in the future
you had purposefully undisclosed qualifying conditions.

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:53:39 -0400, Andrew Gideon >
wrote:

>> IÂ*haveÂ*twoÂ*physicians.Â*Â*They
>> have never met.
>
>Considering that you need to indicate on the form for your medical all
>physician visits, is this really significant?

I think it's very significant. I have found my own doctors (I switched
docs between 2nd and 3rd physicals) both to be very discreet,
enthusiastic about my flying, and anxious to help me get over the
obstacles. (I was 66 when I started taking flying lessons, so there
were indeed some obstacles.)

The AME by contrast basically works for the FAA. He too has become a
friend, but not one I'd expect to walk a mile on my behalf.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[name withheld]

On 24 Jul 2005 16:35:09 -0700, wrote:

:Luckily, before signing all the papers, I stumbled on the FAA's
:position that Zyban automatically disqualifies you from obtaining a
:medical certificate. (I have been taking Zyban for smoking cessation
:for about 7 months).

Yes, Zyban is basically an anti-depression drug, and automatically
disqualifying.

Get a different AME. Stop taking Zyban. If you have to go to a
nicotine patch or gum, do so, it's not disqualifying. Since this is
your first medial, don't EVER mention that you've taken Zyban. And
even if you have to sell your wife's good china, join AOPA

I fly red-eye to across the US 2 to 4 times a month. I can't sleep on
airplanes, and started using a sleeping pill called Sonata. It's very
short acting, and wears off after 4 hours. I didn't know it was
disqualifying. After I got turned down for my medical I stopped
taking it (so I'm a zombie when I'm in Washington, but oh well). I
had to get every medical record I'd ever had, going back 20 years, and
letters from every doctor I had (including my urologist) that I wasn't
taking it any more. It took me 3 years to get my medical back. I had
to have a letter from a sleep disorder clinic that I didn't have a
sleep disorder.

[John Larson]

Get real, AOPA is useless. It leans more and more to the jet set crowd and
for good reason.


"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
>>If you're unable or unwilling to ask FAA anonymously, go to AOPA and ask
>>there. You'll get a straight answer from current AME's who have good
>>information.
>
> Yes, and use $35 of that $2000 to join AOPA. I'm not a joiner,
> ordinarily, nor a magazine subscriber either, but flying is different.
> You need an advocate, and AOPA is it.
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>
> email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog: www.danford.net
> In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[John Larson]

This is the best advice ever given on this board.


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
. com...
> Don Hammer wrote:
>> One thing you might consider - The internist that takes care of me is
>> also my flight surgeon. He won't give me anything that disqualifies
>> me to fly.
>>
>
>
> That's potentially a poor idea. As a former Pan AM pilot said, "you don't
> tell your AME anything unless you want to quit flying". I have two
> physicians. They have never met.
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>
>
>
>