Passenger Comfort.....

[[email protected]]

I'm a relatively new commercial pilot and have had several passengers
with NPE...near puke events! Some have been uncomfortable from the
moment we start the tow, others at altitude and others while
thermaling. I keep the chatter going, recommend steady breathing and
to look at the horizon. I make sure the air vent is open as well.

Can anyone offer some tips to keep the passengers from losing it? I
want each one to have a great ride and first gliding experience. I
keep the manuevers gentle and frequently ask how they are doing.

It seems the ones who say they will be fine, and laugh at me when I
point out the airsick bag, have been the one's to get queasy.

Thanks in advance,

Douglas

[Paul]

Why try letting them fly the glider.
This I find distracts them and they end up thinking about other things
rather than puking.
Also make sure they are looking out at the horizon and admiring the view.
Some people put their heads down and look inside when they start to feel off
and this just makes it worse.
Paul
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> I'm a relatively new commercial pilot and have had several passengers
> with NPE...near puke events! Some have been uncomfortable from the
> moment we start the tow, others at altitude and others while
> thermaling. I keep the chatter going, recommend steady breathing and
> to look at the horizon. I make sure the air vent is open as well.
>
> Can anyone offer some tips to keep the passengers from losing it? I
> want each one to have a great ride and first gliding experience. I
> keep the manuevers gentle and frequently ask how they are doing.
>
> It seems the ones who say they will be fine, and laugh at me when I
> point out the airsick bag, have been the one's to get queasy.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Douglas
>

[Jack]

Paul wrote:

> Why try letting them fly the glider.

I assume you meant, "why not...?"


> Also make sure they are looking out at the horizon and admiring the view.
> Some people put their heads down and look inside when they start to feel off
> and this just makes it worse.

Good advice here.


>>It seems the ones who say they will be fine, and laugh at me when I
>>point out the airsick bag, have been the one's to get queasy.

Don't discount the power of suggestion -- but I'm not sure how to get around
it without leaving them uninformed.


Jack

[[email protected]]

I wrote an article about "Give a Better Glider Ride" in the April 2004
issue of "Soaring" magazine, that was well received.

Here's a few tips: Consider not making the glider ride into a soaring
flight. Five shallow turns in a thermal at most - then work "lift
streets". The initial glider ride should be about 15-20 minutes, and
in the cool, calm air of the morning. Constant turning under a bit of
"G" and seeing the world go 'round every 20 seconds may not be a happy
introduction to the joy of soaring. If they liked the short flight,
then take them up again for the soaring flight, later in the day.

Of course, if you are not flying coordinated, you are making them
uncomfortable, and if you are talking too much - trying to explain the
concepts of the yaw string, glider aerodynamics, thermals, etc. to them
- then you are not allowing them to enjoy the quiet, and make their own
adjustments to the new sensations.

In 38 years of giving thousands of glider rides, I've made less than 10
passengers sick. Think about how new it must be to your passenger in
every sensory aspect. Give them time to adjust and they will be back
for more.

If you are not an instructor, I'd be careful about having them fly the
glider. (Just the stick, as the rudder is more than they need to know
about at first. Read Derek Piggott's chapter for instructors in his
book, "Gliding Safety" and how to teach turns.) 'Telling passengers
where to look - out at the horizon is OK, as long as the rate of turn
is slow.

You are to be commended for wanting to share soaring with your
passengers, but consider sharing it a small piece at a time. Too much
candy makes one sick!

Try to look up that article in April 2004 "Soaring", or I can email it
as a file.

Burt Compton
Marfa Gliders, west Texas USA
www.flygliders.com

[JC]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:48:58 GMT, Jack > wrote:

>Paul wrote:
>
<snip>
>
>>>It seems the ones who say they will be fine, and laugh at me when I
>>>point out the airsick bag, have been the one's to get queasy.
>
>Don't discount the power of suggestion -- but I'm not sure how to get around
>it without leaving them uninformed.
>
>
>Jack

I used to operate a commercial glider operation. I kept a gallon size
zip lock bag in the front seat pocket but I never told the passenger
about it. I would then watch the passenger for signs of there getting
sick. (I was in the back seat.) If they started sweating a lot on
not such a hot day, or became uresponsive when questioned I would
directly ask them if they were not feeling well and tell them where
the bag was.

I did not tell them about the bag before launch because a discussion
between many commercial operators suggested that telling them where
the sick sac was would often times make passengers more prone to
getting sick.

I also avoided giving rides when it was extremely hot or when the
visibility was poor, i.e. no clear horizon. With no clear horizon I
found passengers had more of a problem.

In five seasons of giving rides commercially and 7 seasons of giving
rides for my club, I only had three or four people get sick.
Unfortunately one of them was my former fiancee.


(The gallon bag was so they would not have any trouble with aim.
They also could seal it after they were done and I did not have to
smell.)

[[email protected]]

Thanks all for the tips. I'll look up your article Burt. After
reading the replies, I think my biggest mistake has been the power of
suggestion. I've made too much of a point about the airsick bag, and
probably have been questioning the passengers to frequently to see if
they are OK. I'll switch to the "hidden" gallon zip locks, and won't
mention it unless it's needed. I've been having them look at the
horizon which seems to have helped. I really do keep it mellow unless
they say they are OK with the turns. I'll also keep my mouth shut
more! But I still will point out the sights....on a good day, the
passengers can see NY, Phillie, and the ocean.

Thanks again for all the replies and tips. I take giving rides very
seriously, if we can give a "newbie" a good experience the first time
out, they may come back for more.

Douglas

[Bruno]

I work in the boating business and ran across the following miracle
cure at the Miami boat show 2 years ago. I don't sell the stuff so my
recommendation has no side motives.

It is a liquid you put behind your ears called MotionEaze. I was
extremely skeptical when I first saw it but for 15 bucks thought it was
worth a try. Why take a passenger up soaring if all you do is go
straight and gentle so you don't make them sick? Without the worry of
getting them sick, you can really help them to experience what many of
us take for granted when we soar. I bought the stuff and tried it for
the first time on a cruise last year. My mother-in-law was full blown
green and puking the first night from the rocking ship. I thought she
would make a good guinea pig. :) To stuff really worked on her and
she was 100% better 10 minutes after trying it. I tried it on another
5 or so people during the cruise and on dive boats and every time it
worked even after they were feeling sick and/or puking. I now give it
to every person I take up soaring before we take off and haven't had a
sick one yet even after aggressive thermal ling.

Again, I am not involved with this company in any way, just a very
happy customer. Their website is http://www.motioneaze.com/

Bruno

[Bruce]

One thing I have learned - Make sure your passengers - Never look at the wingtip
circling close to the ground. The apparent retrograde motion seems to trigger
motion sickness very reliably in those who are succeptible.

We also make as little point of the air-sick bag as possible, and just enloy the
flight. If the passenger is enjoying the flight we might extend it, but
generally keep first flight to 20 minutes max.

Some folk never get comfortable. So far I have never made a passenger more than
queasy. There are those who have made someone throw up, and those who will some
day make someone throw up...

JC wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:48:58 GMT, Jack > wrote:
>
>
>>Paul wrote:
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>>>>It seems the ones who say they will be fine, and laugh at me when I
>>>>point out the airsick bag, have been the one's to get queasy.
>>
>>Don't discount the power of suggestion -- but I'm not sure how to get around
>>it without leaving them uninformed.
>>
>>
>>Jack
>
>
> I used to operate a commercial glider operation. I kept a gallon size
> zip lock bag in the front seat pocket but I never told the passenger
> about it. I would then watch the passenger for signs of there getting
> sick. (I was in the back seat.) If they started sweating a lot on
> not such a hot day, or became uresponsive when questioned I would
> directly ask them if they were not feeling well and tell them where
> the bag was.
>
> I did not tell them about the bag before launch because a discussion
> between many commercial operators suggested that telling them where
> the sick sac was would often times make passengers more prone to
> getting sick.
>
> I also avoided giving rides when it was extremely hot or when the
> visibility was poor, i.e. no clear horizon. With no clear horizon I
> found passengers had more of a problem.
>
> In five seasons of giving rides commercially and 7 seasons of giving
> rides for my club, I only had three or four people get sick.
> Unfortunately one of them was my former fiancee.
>
>
> (The gallon bag was so they would not have any trouble with aim.
> They also could seal it after they were done and I did not have to
> smell.)
>


--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

[dan]

wrote:
> I'm a relatively new commercial pilot and have had several passengers
> with NPE...near puke events! Some have been uncomfortable from the
> moment we start the tow, others at altitude and others while
> thermaling. I keep the chatter going, recommend steady breathing and
> to look at the horizon. I make sure the air vent is open as well.

> Can anyone offer some tips to keep the passengers from losing it? I
> want each one to have a great ride and first gliding experience. I
> keep the manuevers gentle and frequently ask how they are doing.

> It seems the ones who say they will be fine, and laugh at me when I
> point out the airsick bag, have been the one's to get queasy.

I've never had anyone actually get sick on me while giving a ride, although
one person said she "wouldn't mind" if we landed early. I think some people
are more prone to getting sick, and typically, they know it. I agree with
the other people who say not to tell them about the barf bag until they need
it. If your passanger asks about it before they get in, thats a *BAD* sign.
Someone at my club once joked that every passanger who asked about the
barf bag on the ground had gotten sick in the air.

I think fresh air and a clear view out of the cockpit are the best way to
minimize airsickness. Never give a non-pilot a backseat ride. However,
I find that turbulent movement and reduced G's are what tend to make me
feel sick rather than being at any particular orientation. A tight bank
would have little impact on me, but the moment the ship breaks into a stall
would tend to upset me. Staying out of thermals helps, but its no garuntee,
and tows through bumpy air are probably worse than thermals. So there may
be little you can do about it.

I think having the controls (whether on an airplane, or a car or a boat)
makes a big improvement. Obviously you can't hand over the controls during
take off or landing, but you may want to consider giving them the controls
in the air.

dan

[Stuart Grant]

Just want to put in a good word for a product called the Relief Band.
It is an FDA-approved medical device (proven effective)than can be
purchased online for about $75 and is available in many drug store
chains. It is effective for motion sickness, morning sickness, and most
other nausea. I have found it effective 85% of the time. It is worn
like a watch and gives an adjustable small electric shock to the inside
of the wrist. Get the one that has replaceable button cell batteries
(they last about 40 hours).

So when you must give a ride on a hot bumpy afternoon to a passenger
that just had a big lunch you might have them put on a relief band
before the get in the glider. Barf bag as backup.

[Gary Emerson]

My two cents...

When I meet someone I ask if they have flown in a small aircraft before.
Next I ask them if they have any troubles with motion sickness (boats,
planes, etc.). I explain that while most people don't have any issues
with motionsickness, it can happen. Then go on to the usual briefing and
you should have some idea as to how suceptible they may be to getting
sick on the flight.

Once they are in the glider and strapped in I've always explained to
them that I want to make them as comfortable on THEIR flight as possible
and if they should happen to start feeling "off" that the best thing is
for them to TELL ME if they are not feeling well. If that happens, I'd
rather bring them back to the gliderport rather than have them get sick.
I then point out the ziplock and explain "just in case it comes on
suddenly".

During the flight it's important, based on their level of flying
experience, to be sure to tell them what's happening and it's not a good
idea to do any serious thermalling until you've found out if you've got
a trooper or not. A sudden turn, etc. if they are anxious is a good way
to make a benign situation bad. Anyone who's done a lot of rides
probably has a story of the person who showes up for a glider ride with
1000+ hours in power who "never gets sick" and a couple cored turns in a
thermal and they are sweating bullets.

With all that said, pay attention to how much they are talking and ask
them how they're doing, particularly after your first few gentle turns
thermalling.

If they start feeling poorly, level out, shallow turn toward the
gliderport, GENTLY ease out the spoilers, and take 'em home. If it
starts, then it is highly unlikely that they'll feel better so best plan
is to get them on the ground because no one is likely to ever return
after an intro ride if they actually get sick. They are your customer
and it's important to keep that in mind.

If they are a little green when you land, you can explain that with the
more exposure they get, typically the motion sickness will go away.

Gary
(8 years of rides, zero pukes)

[Vaughn]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> I'm a relatively new commercial pilot and have had several passengers
> with NPE...near puke events! Some have been uncomfortable from the
> moment we start the tow, others at altitude and others while
> thermaling. I keep the chatter going, recommend steady breathing and
> to look at the horizon. I make sure the air vent is open as well.

A little communication goes a long way. My first question is always "have
you ever been in a small plane before?" This opens a conversation that usually
can give you an idea of the experience they are looking for. Continue the
conversation a bit during the flight, they will tell you what they want if
properly prompted. Simple questions like "are these turns OK?" are absolutely
basic. With kids, I always explain that the glider banks through turns "just
like a bicycle". They understand that concept instantly and are prepared for
the sensation.

I have learned a lot about giving glider rides by simply hanging back and
listening to my passengers talk to their families & friends after a flight.
What do they talk about? Things that are everyday for you might be
life-defining moment for someone else; something as simple as steering the
glider around a cloud, or flying in formation with a bird.

I have had to make a few quick landings to get queasy passengers on
terra-firma, but only had one actually get sick in the glider. It turned out
that she was in the "family way" and had actually brought her own sick sack!

Vaughn

[bumper]

I'll second that. I first bought the "Relief Band" for my wife who was using
a medication that made her nauseous.

It is important to follow the directions (the "tingle" feeling must extend
up the center of the hand and to the middle fingers. Also, have the pax put
the band on *before* the flight and then show them how to turn it on. Trying
to get the thing installed properly after the onset of nausea is a
guaranteed way to fill the barf bag!
--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)>
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."

"Stuart Grant" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Just want to put in a good word for a product called the Relief Band.
> It is an FDA-approved medical device (proven effective)than can be
> purchased online for about $75 and is available in many drug store
> chains. It is effective for motion sickness, morning sickness, and most
> other nausea. I have found it effective 85% of the time. It is worn
> like a watch and gives an adjustable small electric shock to the inside
> of the wrist. Get the one that has replaceable button cell batteries
> (they last about 40 hours).
>
> So when you must give a ride on a hot bumpy afternoon to a passenger
> that just had a big lunch you might have them put on a relief band
> before the get in the glider. Barf bag as backup.
>

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
dan > wrote:

> I think fresh air and a clear view out of the cockpit are the best way to
> minimize airsickness. Never give a non-pilot a backseat ride.

That's rather difficult to avoid. At our club you are not allowed to
fly from the back seat unless you are an instructor. I've got 250 hours
total time, 68 hours and 95 flights of it giving rides, all with the
passenger in the back seat.

I've had two people get sick. One friend got sick at the end of an 80
minute flight in 1993. I don't fly first-timers for that long any more.
Another friend got sick on her first glider flight earlier this year.
She's been fine on subsequent ones and we think she may have started
with residual car sickness from a "sightseeing route" on the way to the
airport, and unwise food just before the flight (a big hot chocolate).

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[[email protected]]

Vaughn wrote: I have learned a lot about giving glider rides by simply
hanging back and
listening to my passengers talk to their families & friends after a
flight.
What do they talk about? Things that are everyday for you might be
life-defining moment for someone else; something as simple as steering
the
glider around a cloud, or flying in formation with a bird


Vaughn,
That's an excellent suggestion! I've been fortunate enough to have
given some rides to late 80's early 90's year old customers, and the
excitement from the family watching, and the passenger themselves has
been a real learning experience. I'll pay more attention to the
comments in the future.

Thanks again for all the replies, I definately picked up some
techniques that I'll try this weekend. I've been asking if they've
ever flown in a small plane or been in a sailboat....I didn't think
about comparing it to a bicycle ride.

Douglas

[None]

wrote:
> I'm a relatively new commercial pilot and have had several passengers
> with NPE...near puke events! Some have been uncomfortable from the
> moment we start the tow, others at altitude and others while
> thermaling. I keep the chatter going, recommend steady breathing and
> to look at the horizon. I make sure the air vent is open as well.
>
> Can anyone offer some tips to keep the passengers from losing it? I
> want each one to have a great ride and first gliding experience. I
> keep the manuevers gentle and frequently ask how they are doing.
>
> It seems the ones who say they will be fine, and laugh at me when I
> point out the airsick bag, have been the one's to get queasy.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Douglas

[None]

Tell passengers they should not look down at low wing tip while turning
and to look instead out toward the horizon.

wrote:
> I'm a relatively new commercial pilot and have had several passengers
> with NPE...near puke events! Some have been uncomfortable from the
> moment we start the tow, others at altitude and others while
> thermaling. I keep the chatter going, recommend steady breathing and
> to look at the horizon. I make sure the air vent is open as well.
>
> Can anyone offer some tips to keep the passengers from losing it? I
> want each one to have a great ride and first gliding experience. I
> keep the manuevers gentle and frequently ask how they are doing.
>
> It seems the ones who say they will be fine, and laugh at me when I
> point out the airsick bag, have been the one's to get queasy.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Douglas

[[email protected]]

Doug,

Alexander Technique. Used by actors and musicians. You will note that
most NPEs are preceded by some physical changes. The shoulder raise and
the head tilts back. This is a posture indicating stress. While it does
not cause the motion-based nausea, it contributes to the feeling of
discomfort. Placing a hand on the passenger's shoulder can help to
relax him. I'll also suggest that they nod "yes" to relieve the tension
in the back of the neck. This will typically reduce the tension in the
abdomen. (I have a very short canned speech to explain that sitting
semireclined causes some physical strain that can contribute to
airsicknesses, but there is an easy and effective remedy... positive
suggestion.)

I've found this a particularly effect means of managing reduced g
sensitivity. Not a cure by any means, but it helps to keep the body
from adding physical strain to the psychological. Other recommendations
are equally valid: look outside, let 'em fly, point out interesting
features...

(Actors and musicians use the Alexander Technique to cope with
performance anxiety-based body tension, which often leads to nausea and
vomiting.)

wrote:
> I'm a relatively new commercial pilot and have had several passengers
> with NPE...near puke events! Some have been uncomfortable from the
> moment we start the tow, others at altitude and others while
> thermaling. I keep the chatter going, recommend steady breathing and
> to look at the horizon. I make sure the air vent is open as well.
>
> Can anyone offer some tips to keep the passengers from losing it? I
> want each one to have a great ride and first gliding experience. I
> keep the manuevers gentle and frequently ask how they are doing.
>
> It seems the ones who say they will be fine, and laugh at me when I
> point out the airsick bag, have been the one's to get queasy.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Douglas

[[email protected]]

I preffer the snap roll off tow followed into a 5 G loop.

If they can handle that they can handle thermaling a 10knotter right
after that at 50 degree bank.

Al

[Mark James Boyd]

Burt is right on the money. I like to do first flights in the
calm, cooler sunset air. I also sometimes do a very short pattern tow
for the first flight, then a second flight that is longer if desired.

I use slow roll rates and gentler banks, and load the C.G. fairly forward.
I often avoid thermals for the very first flight.

Sometimes (often?) we get people who really aren't first timers.
They are hang glider or airplane or ultralight pilots.
One of the "first flights" with one of these guys was over 3 hours.
I once went up with another guy, student pilot? Yeah right! We
thermalled for over 3 hours and I had to ask him to land so I could
pee (I did an improper pre-flight).

Turbulent air is what soaring is all about. But some "rides"
just want gliding, not soaring. I personally enjoy giving a
"glider" ride as much as a "soaring" ride, if that's what
the customer asks for. Unfortunately, at some places and some
parts of the day, the air is so turbulent that "gliding" isn't
a possibility.


In article . com>,
> wrote:
>I wrote an article about "Give a Better Glider Ride" in the April 2004
>issue of "Soaring" magazine, that was well received.
>
>Here's a few tips: Consider not making the glider ride into a soaring
>flight. Five shallow turns in a thermal at most - then work "lift
>streets". The initial glider ride should be about 15-20 minutes, and
>in the cool, calm air of the morning. Constant turning under a bit of
>"G" and seeing the world go 'round every 20 seconds may not be a happy
>introduction to the joy of soaring. If they liked the short flight,
>then take them up again for the soaring flight, later in the day.
>
>Of course, if you are not flying coordinated, you are making them
>uncomfortable, and if you are talking too much - trying to explain the
>concepts of the yaw string, glider aerodynamics, thermals, etc. to them
>- then you are not allowing them to enjoy the quiet, and make their own
>adjustments to the new sensations.
>
>In 38 years of giving thousands of glider rides, I've made less than 10
>passengers sick. Think about how new it must be to your passenger in
>every sensory aspect. Give them time to adjust and they will be back
>for more.
>
>If you are not an instructor, I'd be careful about having them fly the
>glider. (Just the stick, as the rudder is more than they need to know
>about at first. Read Derek Piggott's chapter for instructors in his
>book, "Gliding Safety" and how to teach turns.) 'Telling passengers
>where to look - out at the horizon is OK, as long as the rate of turn
>is slow.
>
>You are to be commended for wanting to share soaring with your
>passengers, but consider sharing it a small piece at a time. Too much
>candy makes one sick!
>
>Try to look up that article in April 2004 "Soaring", or I can email it
>as a file.
>
>Burt Compton
>Marfa Gliders, west Texas USA
>www.flygliders.com
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Albert Gold]

wrote:
> I preffer the snap roll off tow followed into a 5 G loop.
>
> If they can handle that they can handle thermaling a 10knotter right
> after that at 50 degree bank.
>
> Al
>

But if they can't handle it you won't be able to see through the canopy
until all that stuff drips down.

Al
Discus B, PC

[Doug]

Who said there's no such thing as a free lunch!.

"Albert Gold" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> I preffer the snap roll off tow followed into a 5 G loop.
>>
>> If they can handle that they can handle thermaling a 10knotter right
>> after that at 50 degree bank.
>>
>> Al
>>
>
> But if they can't handle it you won't be able to see through the canopy
> until all that stuff drips down.
>
> Al
> Discus B, PC
>

[pbc76049]

Hey guys.... You are all missing something.
Cockpit conditions are usually a little warm and
uncomfortable with less than the best ventilation.
Cooling off the passenger does wonders. Carry
a frozen towel in one of those thermal bags you keep
food cold in. If they start to feel/sound/seem
like they are having a tough time of it, give them the
towell to cool off with. Lowering the temp of somebodys head
will bring them back to life. The head radiates a LOT of heat
and cooling them off does wonders. Works for me...

Scott.

[bumper]

I keep cool using a Misty Mate portable mister. I use distilled water, so
there's no concern about water getting on the canopy etc. I've also modified
it a bit by adding a flexible tube and clunk weight instead of the normal
stiff plastic pick-up tube inside. In any case, these things are available
at Costco, Wal-Mart etc. They have a built in pump to pressurize them with
air. The nozzle clips to parachute harness etc. Works especially well in
hot, dry climates.

bumper
"pbc76049" > wrote in message
...
> Hey guys.... You are all missing something.
> Cockpit conditions are usually a little warm and
> uncomfortable with less than the best ventilation.
> Cooling off the passenger does wonders. Carry
> a frozen towel in one of those thermal bags you keep
> food cold in. If they start to feel/sound/seem
> like they are having a tough time of it, give them the
> towell to cool off with. Lowering the temp of somebodys head
> will bring them back to life. The head radiates a LOT of heat
> and cooling them off does wonders. Works for me...
>
> Scott.
>

[Roger Worden]

> At our club you are not allowed to fly from the back seat unless you are
an instructor.

I would ask your club leadership to review this rule and the reasons for it.
Learning to fly from the rear seat should be part of learning to be a pilot.
With just a little instruction I see no reason why you should not fly from
the rear seat, I did well before gettign my PPG.

The visibility is a bit different, but not hard to deal with. In some ships
it also lets you see both sets of instruments, so it could be considered
MORE safe than flying from the front. And the feel of the ship may be
different (better) from the rear seat because you are closer to the CG: the
pilot rotates around the CG rather than swinging up and down out in the
nose. In some ways it may feel like you can fly more smoothly.

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
"Roger Worden" > wrote:

> > At our club you are not allowed to fly from the back seat unless you are
> an instructor.
>
> I would ask your club leadership to review this rule and the reasons for it.
> Learning to fly from the rear seat should be part of learning to be a pilot.
> With just a little instruction I see no reason why you should not fly from
> the rear seat, I did well before gettign my PPG.

Oh, I've flown from the rear seat a number of times when pair flying
with other pilots, in several different types (Twin Astir, Janus,
Blanik, DG1000). It's not a problem at all. In fact just for fun I did
my last BFR from the back seat of the Grob and the (visiting, UK "A" cat
since 1964) instructor was about to sign me off when another member
pointed out that club rules (that neither of us knew about) prevented it.

It's a great pity as I really would like to be able to see what my
passengers are doing and they'd probably enjoy it more too.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[Geoff Vincent]

Roger,

At the club where I did my initial training it was madatory for a
"close to solo" student to gain experience in back-seat flying before
being awarded his solo wings. It seemed very clear to me that being
in the back seat was very similar in positioning, with respect to CG
and outlook, to the single seater I would be transitioning into in due
course.

Geoff Vincent
Grampians Soaring Club
Australia

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:22:41 GMT, "Roger Worden" >
wrote:

>> At our club you are not allowed to fly from the back seat unless you are
>an instructor.
>
>I would ask your club leadership to review this rule and the reasons for it.
>Learning to fly from the rear seat should be part of learning to be a pilot.
>With just a little instruction I see no reason why you should not fly from
>the rear seat, I did well before gettign my PPG.
>
>The visibility is a bit different, but not hard to deal with. In some ships
>it also lets you see both sets of instruments, so it could be considered
>MORE safe than flying from the front. And the feel of the ship may be
>different (better) from the rear seat because you are closer to the CG: the
>pilot rotates around the CG rather than swinging up and down out in the
>nose. In some ways it may feel like you can fly more smoothly.
>

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

One tip:

Carry a spare sunhat, if there is hot sun do not let the pupil fly
bare-headed.

If this does not work and the pupil is sick, if there is no sickbag tell
them to use the hat. Better than cleaning out the cockpit.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>
> I'm a relatively new commercial pilot and have had several passengers
> with NPE...near puke events! Some have been uncomfortable from the
> moment we start the tow, others at altitude and others while
> thermaling. I keep the chatter going, recommend steady breathing and
> to look at the horizon. I make sure the air vent is open as well.
>
> Can anyone offer some tips to keep the passengers from losing it? I
> want each one to have a great ride and first gliding experience. I
> keep the manoeuvres gentle and frequently ask how they are doing.
>
> It seems the ones who say they will be fine, and laugh at me when I
> point out the airsick bag, have been the one's to get queasy.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Douglas
>

[Andreas Maurer]

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 20:39:31 +1000, Geoff Vincent
> wrote:


>At the club where I did my initial training it was madatory for a
>"close to solo" student to gain experience in back-seat flying before
>being awarded his solo wings. It seemed very clear to me that being
>in the back seat was very similar in positioning, with respect to CG
>and outlook, to the single seater I would be transitioning into in due
>course.

Curious coe of practice.

What kind of single seater was this that had a head right in front of
you, blocking your view during aerotow and landing? <vbg>

Usually I spend 90 percent of my gliderme on the backseat, but in my
opinion the feeling there is not even similar to the feeling in a
single seater.



Bye
Andreas

[For Example John Smith]

Andreas said:
> Usually I spend 90 percent of my gliderme on the backseat, but in my
> opinion the feeling there is not even similar to the feeling in a
> single seater.

Maybe the point is just that getting a different view and a different feel
and adjusting to it is useful in making the transition to a single place


"Andreas Maurer" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 20:39:31 +1000, Geoff Vincent
> > wrote:
>
>
> >At the club where I did my initial training it was madatory for a
> >"close to solo" student to gain experience in back-seat flying before
> >being awarded his solo wings. It seemed very clear to me that being
> >in the back seat was very similar in positioning, with respect to CG
> >and outlook, to the single seater I would be transitioning into in due
> >course.
>
> Curious coe of practice.
>
> What kind of single seater was this that had a head right in front of
> you, blocking your view during aerotow and landing? <vbg>
>
> Usually I spend 90 percent of my gliderme on the backseat, but in my
> opinion the feeling there is not even similar to the feeling in a
> single seater.
>
>
>
> Bye
> Andreas

[Stefan]

For Example John Smith wrote:

> Maybe the point is just that getting a different view and a different feel
> and adjusting to it is useful in making the transition to a single place

We transition our sutdents when two instructors feel they are ready for
it. They read the handbook, we brief them thouroughly and they go. I
don't know of any student who had the slightest problem.

On the other hand, we consider flying from the back seat with nobody or
a non pilot in the front seat a very bad and dangerous idea. Having lost
three club members in mid airs during the last three years, we are a bit
sensitive for a thorough look out.

Stefan

[Geoff Vincent]

Andreas,

Obviously having a restricted forward view from the back seat is a
given fact. However the experience in the rear seat with respect to
reduced pitch movement and a different outlook perspective along the
wings was considered beneficial as this more closely simulated the
situation that would actually be encountered in a single seater. In
my case the two-seater training was in a K-13 and the first single
seater was a Ka6.


On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:27:50 +0200, Andreas Maurer
> wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 20:39:31 +1000, Geoff Vincent
> wrote:
>
>
>>At the club where I did my initial training it was madatory for a
>>"close to solo" student to gain experience in back-seat flying before
>>being awarded his solo wings. It seemed very clear to me that being
>>in the back seat was very similar in positioning, with respect to CG
>>and outlook, to the single seater I would be transitioning into in due
>>course.
>
>Curious coe of practice.
>
>What kind of single seater was this that had a head right in front of
>you, blocking your view during aerotow and landing? <vbg>
>
>Usually I spend 90 percent of my gliderme on the backseat, but in my
>opinion the feeling there is not even similar to the feeling in a
>single seater.
>
>
>
>Bye
>Andreas

[John in the air]

Can anyone offer some tips to keep the passengers from losing it? Douglas
Douglas - in 40 years I've had only 4 throwup in x000 flights. I personally don't tell them where the sick bags are kept, if we've got any!

Perhaps a bit formal - but here goes - a preflight briefing with open questions keeps them involved and it enables you to assess their state both visually and in terms of their understanding of the potential of their flight (perhaps ability to comprehend gliding practice). I explain that if they want to handle the aircraft controls, then there are three introductory exercises (lookout, use of elevator to control attitude and speed, and ailerons to roll the aircraft) as they will be demonstrated and attempted. Use "your patter" on the ground with them strapped in the cockpilt. In the air you will demonstrate with patter, they will follow through on the controls and their attempt is all we are aiming to achieve. They will be impressed with what they can do!

It's useful to watch and talk through previous launches with them and any approaches and landings.

Cockpit checks, I get them to follow through with right hand on the stick to aquaint them with elevator sense fore and aft, aileron operation left and right and continue with "I have control""we won't move the stick that far in the air" I then complete the control checks for rudder and full & free.
Continue to involve them in the ongoing cockpit check ... instruments "mine are set, don't worry about yours"... "The green knob on the ... is the trim on the elevator, full & free movement, set for .... launch, and if the cable breaks, it's set for landing" ..... "The blue lever is the airbrakes, fully open L and R (get them to look L & R) flush and locked". Two seperate movements.

This complies with the CAA requirement to avoid the (anti) Hire & Reward sentiments of providing instruction.

Anticipate the launch proceding and give a verbal commentary.
Launches and landings are stressful for you and very much so for them - so talking during these phases of flight are essential.

In the air smooth movements (as airline pilots do normally), if possible plan your flying so that every turn an instructional turn - it's much easier for you, and it maximinses their handling and exercise time. Flight planning needs to aim to achieve this.

Shallow angles of bank in turns and get them to follow through even though they don't want to fly the aircraft. You will be able to sense if they are tense, leading or lagging on the controls.
This helps them compute what their behind senses and their eys see. So long as their brain can keep rationalising these two information flows they won't throw up.
Perhaps a little more speed will make the aircraft more stable for them.

Something I try to do is to be enthusiastic about how well they are attempting ...... . Words like "that's good!" Even when they're attempts are aweful but safe - keep the words positive - "Try that again! This time, concentrate on .....or try ....". Don't be afraid to re-demonstrate the excercise.

It's essential to keep up a conversation, (keep them occupied to prevent nerves developing) at a pace they can absorbe and comply with your requests to lookout, move controls and give you control on request.
Not answering questions (can you see ... and not looking means overload), complying with look R to see ... or the back of their neck trembling and a halo of steam above their head indicates they're working at peak performance and perhaps they are about to ...... At any rate they are past learning.
Mental fatigue will set in before phyical fatigue, but you will notice erratic control movements indicating perhaps mental fatigue is present, even after a few minutes. A minute or two off the controls and they may be ready for another try. Limit first flights to say 20 mins max.
Perhaps this is how you do it now and it's more a question of what they've just had to eat. however, I hope there's a few clues for you Douglas - best of luck!