For Sale: Duo Discus Turbo

[Ruud]

Have a look at:
http://home.planet.nl/~holsw007/duodiscus/

The glider is currently located at the Dutch Soaring Center "Terlet"
in the Netherlands.

For more information surf to the web site or contact Ruud Holswilder
at

[Bruce]

Ruud wrote:
> Have a look at:
> http://home.planet.nl/~holsw007/duodiscus/
>
> The glider is currently located at the Dutch Soaring Center "Terlet"
> in the Netherlands.
>
> For more information surf to the web site or contact Ruud Holswilder
> at

Why sell such a nice ship?

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

[Stefan]

Bruce wrote:

> Why sell such a nice ship?

Right they are: Get rid of that Duo and buy a DG 1000 instead! :-P

Stefan

[Ruud]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:26:37 +0200, Bruce >
wrote:

>
>Why sell such a nice ship?

It sure is a nice ship, but the new Duo Discus X is just a little
better ;-)
So I ordered a new Duo Discus XT.

BTW the old Duo's can be modified with the winglets.

[Ruud]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:35:49 +0200, Stefan >
wrote:
>
>Right they are: Get rid of that Duo and buy a DG 1000 instead! :-P
>
If you want to buy a club work horse, the DG1000 is a good option.
There is one for sale in NL, see the Schempp-Hirth pinboard.

If you like a real race horse for long X-country flights, you better
buy a Duo.
If you don't like outlandings, buy a Duo Discus T.

[nimbus]

Some remarks/questions:
1=2EBut the price of nearly 140 k=80 seems very high to me.
2=2EIs it possible to upgrade a DG 1000 toward a DG1000 Turbo?
3=2E Why your remark about outlanding? Is the DG1000 very bad for
outlanding?

[Bruce]

nimbus wrote:
> Some remarks/questions:
> 1.But the price of nearly 140 k€ seems very high to me.
> 2.Is it possible to upgrade a DG 1000 toward a DG1000 Turbo?
> 3. Why your remark about outlanding? Is the DG1000 very bad for
> outlanding?
>
Hi Ian

I assume the comment was simply that the turbo option would allow you to get
home - and the DG1000 offered does not have the iron thermal in the back.

From what I have read the undercarriage on the DG is extremely robust and well
suited to outlandings - derigging a 20m two seater is going to be a sweaty job
in most cases...

DG are offering a "T" option on the 1000 - and new prices seem to be
comparable,the DG engine management appears simpler - but having never played
with either I can't comment. Now if either came with the extremely useful
ability to launch unaided that option it would be nice.

The DG1000 also comes with a choice of 18 and 20m wingspan, the former endowing
it with Aerobatic rating...

I suppose it comes down to horses for courses. the DG is more versatile, the Duo
is more focussed, and arguably better cross country.

Cheers
Bruce
--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

[Ruud]

On 30 Jul 2005 01:01:24 -0700, "nimbus" >
wrote:

>Some remarks/questions:
>1.But the price of nearly 140 k€ seems very high to me.
Just try buying a new one with all equipment and see where you end.
Apart from waiting 2 years, you end up at least 10% higher excluding
increasing prices.

>2.Is it possible to upgrade a DG 1000 toward a DG1000 Turbo?
No

>3. Why your remark about outlanding? Is the DG1000 very bad for
>outlanding?
The DG1000 is an excellent ship for outlandings! (the new DuoDiscusX
also)
The question is if you like outlandings.
A turbo gives you the opportunity to fly x-country all the time
without having a retrieve crew.

[Ruud]

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:49:13 +0200, Bruce >
wrote:

> - derigging a 20m two seater is going to be a sweaty job
> in most cases...

If you have the proper equipment and a good trailer like a Cobra ,
rigging and derigging is an easy job.
I can rig and derig my Duo without any help.
In windy conditions, I only need someone to stabilize the wing dolly.
I have compared the time needed to derig the Duo and the time needed
to put the Jaxida covers on.
Putting the covers on takes almost as much time as derigging it and
store it in the trailer.
That's why my Jaxida covers are still like new.

[Mark Lenox]

I don't have any experience rigging the duo.

Do you know the weight of the individual panels?

Are the inner panels as heavy as, say, a typical 15M complete wing?

If two people can handle the individual panels reasonably easily, then that
would be quite nice. My only experience rigging and de-rigging large
2-seat ships has been with ASK-21s and Blaniks, and they are both quite a
challenge to rig due to the heavy wings.

I am also assuming that all connections are automatic?


Mark


"Ruud" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:49:13 +0200, Bruce >
> wrote:
>
>> - derigging a 20m two seater is going to be a sweaty job
>> in most cases...
>
> If you have the proper equipment and a good trailer like a Cobra ,
> rigging and derigging is an easy job.
> I can rig and derig my Duo without any help.
> In windy conditions, I only need someone to stabilize the wing dolly.
> I have compared the time needed to derig the Duo and the time needed
> to put the Jaxida covers on.
> Putting the covers on takes almost as much time as derigging it and
> store it in the trailer.
> That's why my Jaxida covers are still like new.
>

[Bill Daniels]

"Mark Lenox" > wrote in message
...
> I don't have any experience rigging the duo.
>
> Do you know the weight of the individual panels?
>
> Are the inner panels as heavy as, say, a typical 15M complete wing?
>
> If two people can handle the individual panels reasonably easily, then
that
> would be quite nice. My only experience rigging and de-rigging large
> 2-seat ships has been with ASK-21s and Blaniks, and they are both quite a
> challenge to rig due to the heavy wings.
>
> I am also assuming that all connections are automatic?
>
>
> Mark

It's heavier than any 15M I have assembled. I'd say it's similar to most
2-seaters - not easy but two people can do it with assembly aids. The
controls are automatic.

Bill D

[Bob Korves]

"Mark Lenox" > wrote in
:

> I don't have any experience rigging the duo.
>
> Do you know the weight of the individual panels?
>
> Are the inner panels as heavy as, say, a typical 15M complete wing?
>
> If two people can handle the individual panels reasonably easily, then
> that would be quite nice. My only experience rigging and de-rigging
> large 2-seat ships has been with ASK-21s and Blaniks, and they are
> both quite a challenge to rig due to the heavy wings.
>
> I am also assuming that all connections are automatic?
>


The Duo Discus inner wing panels weigh 215 lbs. / 98kg each. The glider
goes together just like a Discus, only bigger and heavier. We have
assembled ours with 2 people and without rigging aids (other than wing
stands) numerous times. 3 people make it easier. 4 mostly get in the
way...
-Bob Korves
5H Duo Discus
5K LAK-17a

[Ruud]

On 2 Aug 2005 21:18:04 -0500, Bob Korves <bkorves@winfirstDECIMALcom>
wrote:
>
> We have
>assembled ours with 2 people and without rigging aids (other than wing
>stands) numerous times.
In the long run that will ruin your back!

> 3 people make it easier. 4 mostly get in the
>way...
I can rig my duo all by myself without any help and without any heavy
lifting in light wind conditions.
At stronger wind conditions I need someone to stabilize the wing
dolly.
The only lifting I need to do is rolling the wing panels out of the
trailer into the wingdolly, but I'm working on a solution for that.
See the video on the web site.

[John Galloway]

I too have rigged a Duo T solo from a Cobra trailer
with a Cobra rigging aid. It can be done. The wing
is very heavy but that isn't the main problem I found.


If the rigging ground is rough and grass then the rigging
aid does not roll well at the point that you are trying
to pull the flat wing into the fuselage. It tends
to tilt and dig into the wing surfaces. The little
stabilizer wheel do not help and actually tend to get
caught in the grass or ground undulations. A rope
to pull on the rigging aid axle helps. On firm smooth
ground it would be very much easier.

Also everything in a two seater is just plain bigger
and things that are easy in little gliders are much
more awkward - such as that I could not reach over
the wing sufficiently to lift it and simultaneously
pull it inwards as the drag pins are inserted - like
I can easily do in a little glider.

Having said that - buy a Duo - get some help to rig
it - and appreciate what a lovely glider it is.

John Galloway


At 13:18 03 August 2005, Ruud wrote:
>On 2 Aug 2005 21:18:04 -0500, Bob Korves
>wrote:
>>
>> We have
>>assembled ours with 2 people and without rigging aids
>>(other than wing
>>stands) numerous times.
>In the long run that will ruin your back!
>
>> 3 people make it easier. 4 mostly get in the
>>way...
>I can rig my duo all by myself without any help and
>without any heavy
>lifting in light wind conditions.
>At stronger wind conditions I need someone to stabilize
>the wing
>dolly.
>The only lifting I need to do is rolling the wing panels
>out of the
>trailer into the wingdolly, but I'm working on a solution
>for that.
>See the video on the web site.
>
>

[Ruud]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:42:17 +0200, Asbjorn Hojmark
>> If you like a real race horse for long X-country flights, you better
>> buy a Duo.
>
>Well, except of cause if DG is right, and the DG1000 actually performs
>better: http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/vergleich-duo-e.html
>
See: http://www.gliderforum.com/thread-view.asp?threadid=40&start=1

[Stefan]

Ruud wrote:

> If you want to buy a club work horse, the DG1000 is a good option.
>
> If you like a real race horse for long X-country flights, you better
> buy a Duo.

Things I hate about the Duo:

The cockpit is a joke. Despite it's roomy as my saloon, there's no way
to carry even a simple water bottle without permanently fearing that it
will slip under the seat and jam some controls. Besides, I hate the
smell of my co-pilot's feet.

The spoilers are a joke for such a heavy glider. I have done outlandings
at fields which I wouldn't want to try in a Duo.

I forces me to abandon a good thermal at cloud base, when the cloud
above indicates that there are still 2000 metres of good climb, which
would allow me to cross that blue hole in front of me.

And, probably the most annoying thing: I'm not allowed to do that
occasional loop, just for fun, during a cross country flight.

The DG 1000 my club has ordered will be delivered only next spring, so I
don't know yet what I'll hate about that one. :-)

Stefan

[John Galloway]

At 19:36 03 August 2005, Stefan wrote:

>Things I hate about the Duo:
>
>The cockpit is a joke. Despite it's roomy as my saloon,
>there's no way
>to carry even a simple water bottle without permanently
>fearing that it
>will slip under the seat and jam some controls. Besides,
>I hate the
>smell of my co-pilot's feet.
>
>The spoilers are a joke for such a heavy glider. I
>have done outlandings
>at fields which I wouldn't want to try in a Duo.
>
>I forces me to abandon a good thermal at cloud base,
>when the cloud
>above indicates that there are still 2000 metres of
>good climb, which
>would allow me to cross that blue hole in front of
>me.
>
>And, probably the most annoying thing: I'm not allowed
>to do that
>occasional loop, just for fun, during a cross country
>flight.
>
>The DG 1000 my club has ordered will be delivered only
>next spring, so I
>don't know yet what I'll hate about that one. :-)
>
>Stefan


Why carry water in inconvenient bottles in any glider?
For the Duo 2-3 litres of water in a Camelbak fit
fine for me tied horizontally behind the top of the
front seat back. Alternatively for tall front pilots
their water bag can go in the little rucksack in front
of the rear cockpit with a tube to the front. The
rear cockpit pilot can carry his water bag secured
elsewhere such as behind the rear head rest.

Front seat pilot's food and oddments sit nicely in
the deep well under the right thigh that is meant to
hold lead ballast but rarely does so. With that space
there is actually as much oddments room in the front
of a Duo as a solo SH glider. The side pocket is tiny
but you can tuck a surprising amount of stuff into
it.

Also the rear pilot acts as butler when required -
part of the fun of XC in a two seater

The weakness Duo airbrakes is greatly overplayed.
The forces required for full airbrake are excessive
IMHO until you adjust the hydraulic wheelbrake a little
and also make sure the glider has the modified airbrake
lever (in the mid fuselage) to reduce the forces.
Without those changes I was not able to fully open
the brakes without real effort. Then when you can
easily pull full brake you find that you have a glide
angle of 6.7:1. The Discus 2C, which is judged by
reviewers to have powerful airbrakes, gets 6.6:1.
If you can't manage with 6.7:1 to get into a field
then you ought not to be flying XC. The difference
between landing single and two seaters in fields is
the relative lengths of the float and ground run which
is directly proportional to the weights (for the same
approach speed) - except that the Duo has an extremely
powerful wheel brake and it is very difficult to get
a Turbo Duo to go onto its nose so full wheel braking
is available when needed.

If you want to critcise the Duo the one unquestionably
poor feature is the unsprung undercarriage which can
make landings on rough hard ground uncomfortable.
That (and all the other usual Duo moans) is done away
with in the Duo X. BTW when I was at the factory a
few weeks ago I was told that that there were further
developments of the Duo X in the pipeline - specifically,
on the front cockpit to improve storage and also separation
between that and the rear cockpit.

John Galloway

[Gerhard Wesp]

Bruce > wrote:
> The DG1000 also comes with a choice of 18 and 20m wingspan, the former endowing
> it with Aerobatic rating...

It's aerobatic rated in *both* configurations. Difference is, with 18m,
it's full aerobatic, with 20m it's "limited" aerobatic, i.e. loop, turn
and the likes. And these are very easy and straightforward to fly with
20m. I really like this ship.

Cheers
-Gerhard
--
o o
Gerhard Wesp | http://www.cosy.sbg.ac.at/~gwesp/
\_/ See homepage for email address!