Do we, as a group, just suck?

[Hilton]

Hi,

OK, you have to be pretty brain dead to live in Florida, fly near Pad 39B
and not know something is going to, or even may happen.

Shaw Pilots Intercept Plane Before Shuttle Launch:
http://www.wltx.com/news/news19.aspx?storyid=29178

I really don't want our airspace to be consumed by restrictions, but when
the Shuttle incident and the DC incidents seem to happen regularly... I'm
not even going to start about planes buzzing beaches and nearly hitting
people (Santa Cruz) and all the other 'bad for GA' stuff that happens. I
think that as a group, we need to take more responsibility for our actions
and I'm not sure if I see that happening.

Oh well, off to Oshkosh... If any fellow NGs are there, look for the guy in
the WingX for the Pocket PC shirt. Well, there might be a few of us, but
I'm the ugly one. :)

Hilton

[JohnH]

> OK, you have to be pretty brain dead to live in Florida, fly near Pad
> 39B and not know something is going to, or even may happen.

Every incursion - every clearing of the white house - every expensive
"intercept" - brings us one step closer to permanent grounding.

I give GA as we know it 1... maybe 2 years tops.

It's not Bush.

it's not stopthenoise.

It's not even Bin Laden.

It's all courtesy our "fellow" pilots.

[Granite]

Yes, we do, on the whole. We're going to lose our privileges in the U.S. if
we keep this up, and we'll have nobody to blame but ourselves. For those
that 'get it', its up to you to help and mentor the weaker GA pilots, to set
the right example.

[Sylvain]

Hilton wrote:
>
> the Shuttle incident and the DC incidents seem to happen regularly... I'm
> not even going to start about planes buzzing beaches and nearly hitting
> people (Santa Cruz) and all the other 'bad for GA' stuff that happens. I
> think that as a group, we need to take more responsibility for our actions
> and I'm not sure if I see that happening.

another way to look at it though, is that there is very few incidents,
albeit all receiving a disproportionate amount of media attention for
the number of pilots overall. Try to think of any other group that does
as well... that said, yeah, we could improve things a bit by educating
ourselves and the journalists (hey, here is an idea, trying to convert
more journalists to flying, a bit like the Young Eagles program :-)

--Sylvain

[tony roberts]

So it's true then - you're not Paris? :)

> Well, there might be a few of us, but
> I'm the ugly one. :)
>
> Hilton


Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Hilton]

Sylvain,

> > the Shuttle incident and the DC incidents seem to happen regularly...
I'm
> > not even going to start about planes buzzing beaches and nearly hitting
> > people (Santa Cruz) and all the other 'bad for GA' stuff that happens.
I
> > think that as a group, we need to take more responsibility for our
actions
> > and I'm not sure if I see that happening.
>
> another way to look at it though, is that there is very few incidents,
> albeit all receiving a disproportionate amount of media attention for
> the number of pilots overall.

I can understand pilots clipping the edge of a 'hot' area, or flying through
an area that just became 'hot', and things like that. But buzzing the Santa
Cruz beach (the wheel reportedly nearly hit a young boy), having to evacuted
the DC buildings several times, flying near Pad 39B on launch day... I just
don't get it.

You know what, I think some of these incidents should receive a
disproportionate amount of media - like the ones mentioned above. Some guy
with no radio who has jets 'force' him down and potentially halts a shuttle
countdown should receive its fair share of media - that's a big deal.

It just frustrates me that most of us try hard to do the right thing (e.g.
noise abatement), then others make the news.

Hilton

[Jose]

> having to evacuted
> the DC buildings several times

1: The evacuation was not caused by the pilots. It was caused by the
officials.

2: The evaucation is dumb to begin with, given what a small airplane
could even do.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Hilton]

Tony wrote:
> So it's true then - you're not Paris? :)
>
> > Well, there might be a few of us, but
> > I'm the ugly one. :)

My Dad calls my two little girls the Hilton Sisters. I don't think I like
that. :)

Hilton

[Thomas Borchert]

Hilton,

The answer to your question is "Yes".

I guess it didn't make the news in the US, but we have a flight
prohibition for VFR aircraft coming for our capital, Berlin. Also for
big events and the upcoming soccer world championship next year. The
reason:

On Friday, an ultralight pilot who had killed his wife over her having
a lover decided that he didn't like the police catching up with him and
committed suicide. He did that by flying his Kiebitz ultralight into
the Berlin CTR without clearance or radio contact and crash it (and
himself) on a lawn between the "Reichstag" (our parliament building)
and the "Kanzleramt" (our Whitehouse). I am NOT making this up.

Politicos and the public went bananas over this, of course. Cynic that
I am, I can only be glad for the bombings in Egypt taking away a lot of
the attention from this.

Coming back to your original question: I think the GA watch thing has
to be expanded. We as pilots need to get after the Hayden Sheaffers
among us. We all know who they are, who the local top bozos are - and
we have to stop them before they stop us.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jose,

Ah, so you're still one of the many not getting it. (Sorry, no offense
meant)

> 1: The evacuation was not caused by the pilots. It was caused by the
> officials.

Repeat after me: It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doesn't
matter.

>
> 2: The evaucation is dumb to begin with, given what a small airplane
> could even do.
>

Repeat after me: It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doesn't
matter.

What matters is public perception. And in that, we pilots look real bad
and dangerous.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:40:57 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> wrote in
>::

>Jose,
>
>Ah, so you're still one of the many not getting it. (Sorry, no offense
>meant)
>
>> 1: The evacuation was not caused by the pilots. It was caused by the
>> officials.
>
>Repeat after me: It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doesn't
>matter.
>
>>
>> 2: The evaucation is dumb to begin with, given what a small airplane
>> could even do.
>>
>
>Repeat after me: It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doesn't
>matter.
>
>What matters is public perception. And in that, we pilots look real bad
>and dangerous.

If truth and rational thought no longer mean anything in this world,
what does that say about our sanity?

[Steve Foley]

The only reason GA is still around is because it's the training ground for
airline pilots.

The military can't afford to pump out all the pilots americans demand, and
GA is a self-funding training program. How else could someone come up with
the required hours for an ATP?

"JohnH" > wrote in message
...
> > OK, you have to be pretty brain dead to live in Florida, fly near Pad
> > 39B and not know something is going to, or even may happen.
>
> Every incursion - every clearing of the white house - every expensive
> "intercept" - brings us one step closer to permanent grounding.
>
> I give GA as we know it 1... maybe 2 years tops.
>
> It's not Bush.
>
> it's not stopthenoise.
>
> It's not even Bin Laden.
>
> It's all courtesy our "fellow" pilots.
>
>

[Thomas Borchert]

Larry,

> If truth and rational thought no longer mean anything in this world,
> what does that say about our sanity?
>

Hey, when did they last? During the inquisition? Hardly.

<thread creep alert>

But I would agree with you that rationalism and scepticism seem to be
on the retreat. Sometimes, when looking at courts wanting to post the
ten commandments in their buildings or states demanding teaching
evolution as a possibility only along with "creationism", it sure seems
as if Enlightenment never happened.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[[email protected]]

It was on television overhere.
It looked that the lawn received more damage from the rambling of the
police/fire fighters/ onlookers than from the crash.

-Kees

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:


> Repeat after me: It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doesn't
> matter.
>
> What matters is public perception. And in that, we pilots look real bad
> and dangerous.

It doesn't matter.

Think it through. Even if all future flights followed every single current
rule/procedure for operations in, through, and around each ADIZ, GA
is still screwed. The idiots will find some other irrational reason (as it
were) to furthur restrict GA.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[JohnH]

> But I would agree with you that rationalism and scepticism seem to be
> on the retreat. Sometimes, when looking at courts wanting to post the
> ten commandments in their buildings or states demanding teaching
> evolution as a possibility only along with "creationism", it sure
> seems as if Enlightenment never happened.

The whole country seems to be slipping back into the dark ages; it really is
bewildering. I would have thought most of the barbaric mindset had died off
by now.

[Thomas Borchert]

JohnH,

> The whole country seems to be slipping back into the dark ages; it really is
> bewildering. I would have thought most of the barbaric mindset had died off
> by now.
>

Well, the decline of the Roman empire comes to mind. And the next superpower is
already on the horizon: China.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[John Larson]

I disagree. We mirror society. We will have folks of all levels of
competence and common sense. Just like there are dumb car and truck
operators, so our group will have our share.

The problem lies in the fact that what we do is a privilege and since there
are relatively few of us, it's just easier for the powers that be to ground
us than fix the problem. The problem essentially is that we have this crazy
sense of fair play the won't allow us to protect our consummate rights by
employing racial profiling (it works) and when appropriate, nuking those
countries that won't play nice.

If you really think that North Korea and the Arab states wouldn't use
nuclear weapons on us, if give the chance, you live in a fantasy land.
"Granite" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, we do, on the whole. We're going to lose our privileges in the U.S.
> if
> we keep this up, and we'll have nobody to blame but ourselves. For those
> that 'get it', its up to you to help and mentor the weaker GA pilots, to
> set
> the right example.
>
>

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:12:07 GMT, "Hilton" >
wrote in et>::

>Hi,
>
>OK, you have to be pretty brain dead to live in Florida, fly near Pad 39B
>and not know something is going to, or even may happen.
>
>Shaw Pilots Intercept Plane Before Shuttle Launch:
>http://www.wltx.com/news/news19.aspx?storyid=29178
>
>I really don't want our airspace to be consumed by restrictions, but when
>the Shuttle incident and the DC incidents seem to happen regularly...

These errors are disappointing. They make us begin to suspect the
competence of our fellows. But when you compare these faux pas' with
those routinely committed by automobile drivers, it makes you see that
people make mistakes. For whatever reasons, there will always be those
who do stupid things. In fact, I'll wager you are human enough to
have done some things you have regretted upon later reflection. It's
human nature. To fail to expect it is shortsighted.

>I'm not even going to start about planes buzzing beaches and nearly hitting
>people (Santa Cruz) and all the other 'bad for GA' stuff that happens.

I doubt that airmen commit any more egregious acts than the general
public, and would expect that as a group, we commit less. What of the
LEOs who shoot the innocent, the judges and juries who imprison the
innocent, the president who takes our nation to war over nonexistent
WMDs? We are human after all, and subject to human error.

>I think that as a group, we need to take more responsibility for our actions
>and I'm not sure if I see that happening.

To what sort of responsibility are you referring?

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:21:30 -0700, Sylvain > wrote in
>::

>we could improve things a bit by educating ourselves

What sort of education are you proposing?

>and the journalists (hey, here is an idea, trying to convert
>more journalists to flying, a bit like the Young Eagles program :-)

Now that isn't a bad idea, but it'll have to be done by airmen who
have been briefed on how to provide journalists with an experience
that demonstrates the competence and professionalism of private flight
without giving them ammunition for their next anti-GA story.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:06:31 GMT, "Hilton" >
wrote in et>::

>I can understand pilots clipping the edge of a 'hot' area, or flying through
>an area that just became 'hot', and things like that. But buzzing the Santa
>Cruz beach (the wheel reportedly nearly hit a young boy), having to evacuted
>the DC buildings several times, flying near Pad 39B on launch day... I just
>don't get it.

It's an error to equate those two incidents. Buzzing is a prohibited
activity willfully and intentionally committed by the irresponsible
among our ranks. Airmen who commit such wanton acts should be
permanently bared from obtaining an airmans certificate.

The evacuations of bureaucrats and politicians is an unreasonable
response to a nonexistent threat foisted on them by incompetent
security bureaucrats who should be made to bear the consequences of
their inept policies; airmen are the victims of these uselessly
oppressive policies, not the perpetrators.

[...]

>It just frustrates me that most of us try hard to do the right thing (e.g.
>noise abatement), then others make the news.
>

If the profit motive underling yellow journalism* were somehow
removed, it would be reasonable to expect balanced news coverage. But
in a capitalistic society money wins over idealism.


* http://www.humboldt.edu/~jcb10/yellow.html

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:03:10 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> wrote in
>::

>Larry,
>
>> If truth and rational thought no longer mean anything in this world,
>> what does that say about our sanity?
>>
>
>Hey, when did they last? During the inquisition? Hardly.
>

Now you're confusing metaphysics and rational thought; the two are
mutually exclusive.

><thread creep alert>
>
>But I would agree with you that rationalism and scepticism seem to be
>on the retreat.

I was beginning to think, that my cynicism was just a sign of my newly
acquired senior citizen status. Thanks for the reality check.

>Sometimes, when looking at courts wanting to post the
>ten commandments in their buildings or states demanding teaching
>evolution as a possibility only along with "creationism", it sure seems
>as if Enlightenment never happened.

Enlightenment is not a natural human state. It is only achieved as a
result of acquiring sufficient knowledge and understanding. If the
institutions providing those requites fail at their task, we revert to
being governed by superstition and ignorance. Presently, it seems the
pendulum is swinging toward devolution.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:45:58 -0700, "John Larson" <None ...> wrote in
>::

>The problem essentially is that we have this crazy
>sense of fair play the won't allow us to protect our consummate rights by
>employing racial profiling (it works) and when appropriate, nuking those
>countries that won't play nice.
>
>If you really think that North Korea and the Arab states wouldn't use
>nuclear weapons on us, if give the chance, you live in a fantasy land.

So by your reasoning, our noble nation should abandon its ideals and
permit evil to corrupt its course?

[CriticalMass]

Granite wrote:

> For those
> that 'get it', its up to you to help and mentor the weaker GA pilots, to set
> the right example.

The "weaker GA pilots" . . . those would be the ones holding the
"Darwin Was Right" flags?

[Sylvain]

John Larson wrote:

> The problem lies in the fact that what we do is a privilege

so is driving a car by the way (though few people realize that)

--Sylvain

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:21:30 -0700, Sylvain > wrote in
> >::
>
>>and the journalists (hey, here is an idea, trying to convert
>>more journalists to flying, a bit like the Young Eagles program :-)
>
> Now that isn't a bad idea, but it'll have to be done by airmen who
> have been briefed on how to provide journalists with an experience
> that demonstrates the competence and professionalism of private flight
> without giving them ammunition for their next anti-GA story.
>
>

The AOPA has created a program, and I can't for the life of me remember the
name of it, that assignes a pilot at airports to be a proponant for GA at
that airport.

The same sort of program for the media would be great. Reporters are lazy
they go to the first person that will make a decent sound bite. If the AOPA
recruited and trained a number of people to be that person in each city and
then regularly notify the press that this source was out there they would
use it.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:46:08 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
<wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in <OxRFe.323$_t.220@okepread01>::

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:21:30 -0700, Sylvain > wrote in
>> >::
>>
>>>and the journalists (hey, here is an idea, trying to convert
>>>more journalists to flying, a bit like the Young Eagles program :-)
>>
>> Now that isn't a bad idea, but it'll have to be done by airmen who
>> have been briefed on how to provide journalists with an experience
>> that demonstrates the competence and professionalism of private flight
>> without giving them ammunition for their next anti-GA story.
>>
>
>The AOPA has created a program, and I can't for the life of me remember the
>name of it, that assignes a pilot at airports to be a proponant for GA at
>that airport.

Airport Watch? I believe Mr. Hoenek (who participates in the
discussions in this newsgroup) is one such AOPA sanctioned person.

>The same sort of program for the media would be great. Reporters are lazy
>they go to the first person that will make a decent sound bite. If the AOPA
>recruited and trained a number of people to be that person in each city and
>then regularly notify the press that this source was out there they would
>use it.
>

That seems to be a terrific suggestion for enlightening the press. I
think you're right about journalists using what they know to be
available. I just don't know how all of them might be notified;
perhaps there is a national roster of members available. The other
issue is the costs involved in preparing the Airport Watch people, and
the expense of creating and mailing the program announcement letters
to the journalists, not to mention the costs involved in actually
conducting the flights.

Perhaps it would be easy for Mr. Hoenek to inquire of the AOPA as to
the feasibility of such a program.

What do you think would be the most advantageous point of view for
such a program to present to the journalists? Would it emphasize the
rigors of training and airman certification, the utility of aerial
operations in circumventing ever increasing ground commuter
congestion, the role of the close knit community of pilots in
providing airport security surveillance, ...?

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> What do you think would be the most advantageous point of view for
> such a program to present to the journalists? Would it emphasize the
> rigors of training and airman certification, the utility of aerial
> operations in circumventing ever increasing ground commuter
> congestion, the role of the close knit community of pilots in
> providing airport security surveillance, ...?
>
>

Each of those could be covered. The best way to get a story out of the TV
news media is do ALL the work for them. Pre package the story and send it to
them. The large markets won't air them but the small markets gobble them up.
Just leave a couple of spots for the local talent to insert some local
flavor. Actually this would be a perfect time to introduce the local media
to the local "AOPA Media Watch" member.

The Media Watch member should also introduce himself to the local press on a
regular basis. Keep in mind turn over is rather high in local media
especially the smaller markets. His most important job though would be to
contact them when ever something bad happens locally or when something
REALLY bad happens nationally.

As far as cost AOPA already has some very good PR people on staff. And the
way things are going this type of activity that is exactly what I pay my
dues for.

[[email protected]]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> JohnH,
>
> > The whole country seems to be slipping back into the dark ages; it really is
> > bewildering. I would have thought most of the barbaric mindset had died off
> > by now.
> >
>
> Well, the decline of the Roman empire comes to mind. And the next superpower is
> already on the horizon: China.

I wouldn't underestimate China, but I wouldn't overestimate it, either.
I'd put the odds at 1-3 that they undergo a (more or less) violent
revolution of some kind in the next 25 years. It all depends on whether
the Party and the Army can figure out a peaceful way to transition
towards a more liberal form of government. So far they've done quite
well, but the easy part is behind them. The rural backwaters where a
majority of the population still lives are desperately poor and largely
corrupt. The people there hear about the wealth in Shanghai, Beijing,
and Guangzhou and figure they're getting screwed. This is not a stable
equilibrium.

Off-Topically,
-cwk.

[Sylvain]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

>
> As far as cost AOPA already has some very good PR people on staff. And the
> way things are going this type of activity that is exactly what I pay my
> dues for.
>

doing PR is indeed a full time and high skill job; what I had in
mind was more of an informal grass-root thing, sort of, adopt
your local journalist, take him/her for a ride/free lesson,
keep in touch, etc.

--Sylvain

[Icebound]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Hilton,
>
> The answer to your question is "Yes".
>
> I guess it didn't make the news in the US, but we have a flight
> prohibition for VFR aircraft coming for our capital, Berlin. Also for
> big events and the upcoming soccer world championship next year. The
> reason:
>
> On Friday, an ultralight pilot who had killed his wife over her having
> a lover decided that he didn't like the police catching up with him and
> committed suicide. He did that by flying his Kiebitz ultralight into
> the Berlin CTR without clearance or radio contact and crash it (and
> himself) on a lawn between the "Reichstag" (our parliament building)
> and the "Kanzleramt" (our Whitehouse). I am NOT making this up.
>
> Politicos and the public went bananas over this, of course. Cynic that
> I am, I can only be glad for the bombings in Egypt taking away a lot of
> the attention from this.
>


Now maybe it never happens over there, but every so often people do take a
vehicle to commit spectacular suicide. Every so often they take somebody
innocent with them; apparently he didn't even do that, so suicide by
airplane was probably *safer* to the general population rather than having
him choose some other vehicle and going the wrong way up the autobahn.

The politicos should actually have applauded that Darwin did his job with
minimum damage, and they didn't have to unravel 50 vehicles from a
smouldering pile.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
...
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
>>
>> As far as cost AOPA already has some very good PR people on staff. And
>> the way things are going this type of activity that is exactly what I pay
>> my dues for.
>
> doing PR is indeed a full time and high skill job; what I had in
> mind was more of an informal grass-root thing, sort of, adopt
> your local journalist, take him/her for a ride/free lesson,
> keep in touch, etc.

I really meant that the AOPA PR people would develop the program and
training for the local "AOPA Media Watch" volunteers.

[Mike Weller]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:13:06 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:


>Enlightenment is not a natural human state. It is only achieved as a
>result of acquiring sufficient knowledge and understanding. If the
>institutions providing those requites fail at their task, we revert to
>being governed by superstition and ignorance. Presently, it seems the
>pendulum is swinging toward devolution.
>

Enlightenment took more than just a single generation. And I live in
the South, where the space shuttle engines were designed and put to
work this week. Call it sour grapes, but I had a boss that put
religion above physics. Now, I can't get a good reference from him.

I think that you are right about the pendulum swinging. It just hit
me full force.

Mike Weller

[Marco Leon]

There will always be idiots and incompetents in any large group consisting
of human beings. Many pilots will always take the privilege of flying less
seriously than others and some less seriously than they should. The only
thing that would create a measurable difference (besides highly-effective
education/training) is a penal system that would effectively weed-out these
folks.

Right now, permanent certificate revocation is only available for
drug-related violations. Short of that, the worst the FAA can dish-out is a
revocation with the ability to get another PPL after a certain amount of
time.

Maybe they should start thinking about a permanent revocation on severe TFR
violations.
Or maybe they should implement a wash-out possibility (similar to the
miliary) during PPL training so these folks don't make it into the system in
the first place.

My $0.02

Marco Leon

"Hilton" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Hi,
>
> OK, you have to be pretty brain dead to live in Florida, fly near Pad 39B
> and not know something is going to, or even may happen.
>
> Shaw Pilots Intercept Plane Before Shuttle Launch:
> http://www.wltx.com/news/news19.aspx?storyid=29178
>
> I really don't want our airspace to be consumed by restrictions, but when
> the Shuttle incident and the DC incidents seem to happen regularly... I'm
> not even going to start about planes buzzing beaches and nearly hitting
> people (Santa Cruz) and all the other 'bad for GA' stuff that happens. I
> think that as a group, we need to take more responsibility for our actions
> and I'm not sure if I see that happening.
>
> Oh well, off to Oshkosh... If any fellow NGs are there, look for the guy
in
> the WingX for the Pocket PC shirt. Well, there might be a few of us, but
> I'm the ugly one. :)
>
> Hilton
>
>



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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[Michael]

> Maybe they should start thinking about a permanent revocation on severe TFR
> violations. Or maybe they should implement a wash-out possibility (similar to the
> miliary) during PPL training so these folks don't make it into the system in
> the first place.

Makes sense. Because after all, things will be so much better when
it's harder to obtain a pilot certificate, easier to lose it, and there
are fewer of us. I'm sure that even though we will represent fewer
dollars and fewer votes, the politicians (and various anti-noise,
anti-airport activists) will be reasonable and will reward us for being
responsible and policing our own ranks, and will not look at our
declining numbers as a cue that they can restrict us further in order
to appear to be "doing something" (or to increase the value of the
homes they bought at a discount next to the airport) with less
political fallout.

Michael

[ORVAL FAIRAIRN]

In article . com>,
"Michael" > wrote:

> > Maybe they should start thinking about a permanent revocation on severe TFR
> > violations. Or maybe they should implement a wash-out possibility (similar
> > to the
> > miliary) during PPL training so these folks don't make it into the system
> > in
> > the first place.
>
> Makes sense. Because after all, things will be so much better when
> it's harder to obtain a pilot certificate, easier to lose it, and there
> are fewer of us. I'm sure that even though we will represent fewer
> dollars and fewer votes, the politicians (and various anti-noise,
> anti-airport activists) will be reasonable and will reward us for being
> responsible and policing our own ranks, and will not look at our
> declining numbers as a cue that they can restrict us further in order
> to appear to be "doing something" (or to increase the value of the
> homes they bought at a discount next to the airport) with less
> political fallout.
>
> Michael

I think that "Michael" has it right.

Also a point of order:

According to the news report cited in the original link, the intercepted
plane in the Shuttle incident was 50 miles from the Cape. The Prohibited
Zone was 30 miles radius and the "squawk required" zone was 40 miles
radius from the Cape. If, indeed, the plane was intercepted at 50 miles,
the whole incident is bogus.

[Jose]

> If, indeed, the plane was intercepted at 50 miles,
> the whole incident is bogus.

No. If, indeed, the plane was intercepted at 50 miles, the whole
incident serves to show how abusive the airspace grab is.

Can't fly =there=.
Can't fly =this close= to there.
Can't fly =near= "this close" to there.
Can't fly =towards= "near this close to there.
Can't fly.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Earl Grieda]

"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
> > If, indeed, the plane was intercepted at 50 miles,
> > the whole incident is bogus.
>
> No. If, indeed, the plane was intercepted at 50 miles, the whole
> incident serves to show how abusive the airspace grab is.
>

According to CNN the plane was within 20 miles of the shuttle 3 minutes
before lift-off, and the pilot disappeared after being forced to land.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/07/28/shuttle.plane/index.html

[Peter R.]

Earl Grieda > wrote:

> According to CNN the plane was within 20 miles of the shuttle 3 minutes
> before lift-off, and the pilot disappeared after being forced to land.

Since no one was waiting for him when he landed, perhaps he went home.

--
Peter


















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[Skylune]

I (an anti-GA activist) think Michael has it right too.

[Marco Leon]

I see your vote is for more idiots. You're for "masses" even if they're
"asses." You might as well--as we all should--face the fact that pilots are
a relatively small group of people and will remain that way until they make
flying small aircraft fully automated. Getting rid of the bottom 10% of the
barrel won't render us politically ineffective.

I don't remember advocating more difficult primary training requirements but
to make myself clear, I think there should be a way to ensure that pilots
who should never be up in the air in the first place never make it there. If
you think that's unreasonable, I'm open to opinions. (Maybe the 7-year
suspension on the table would be appealling to you--they would still be able
to consider themselves pilots.)

Marco Leon


"Michael" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > Maybe they should start thinking about a permanent revocation on severe
TFR
> > violations. Or maybe they should implement a wash-out possibility
(similar to the
> > miliary) during PPL training so these folks don't make it into the
system in
> > the first place.
>
> Makes sense. Because after all, things will be so much better when
> it's harder to obtain a pilot certificate, easier to lose it, and there
> are fewer of us. I'm sure that even though we will represent fewer
> dollars and fewer votes, the politicians (and various anti-noise,
> anti-airport activists) will be reasonable and will reward us for being
> responsible and policing our own ranks, and will not look at our
> declining numbers as a cue that they can restrict us further in order
> to appear to be "doing something" (or to increase the value of the
> homes they bought at a discount next to the airport) with less
> political fallout.
>
> Michael
>



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[Peter R.]

Marco Leon <mmleonyahoo.com> wrote:

> I see your vote is for more idiots.
<snip>

Seems like Michael's post was dripping with sarcasm to me.

--
Peter


















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[John Larson]

Great plan. Revoke my license as much as you like. I will keep flying. There
are not enough people working for the FAA to hunt me down every weekend.

When I was flying in AK, I know a couple of guys whose certificates were
"pulled" for a period of time and they kept flying.

Revocations and such mean nothing to the GA pilot. Just like you MUST have a
medical, BFR etc.

Whose gonna "catch" us?
"Michael" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Maybe they should start thinking about a permanent revocation on severe
>> TFR
>> violations. Or maybe they should implement a wash-out possibility
>> (similar to the
>> miliary) during PPL training so these folks don't make it into the system
>> in
>> the first place.
>
> Makes sense. Because after all, things will be so much better when
> it's harder to obtain a pilot certificate, easier to lose it, and there
> are fewer of us. I'm sure that even though we will represent fewer
> dollars and fewer votes, the politicians (and various anti-noise,
> anti-airport activists) will be reasonable and will reward us for being
> responsible and policing our own ranks, and will not look at our
> declining numbers as a cue that they can restrict us further in order
> to appear to be "doing something" (or to increase the value of the
> homes they bought at a discount next to the airport) with less
> political fallout.
>
> Michael
>

[Mike Weller]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:57:32 -0400, "Skylune"
> wrote:

>I (an anti-GA activist) think Michael has it right too.

And I (a pro-GA activist) actually agree with you and Michael.

Wow.

Mike Weller
(A different Michael, but we have met at PJY.)

[ORVAL FAIRAIRN]

In article
utaviation.com>,
"Skylune" > wrote:

> I (an anti-GA activist) think Michael has it right too.

Who CARES what "Skylune" thinks?

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:11:10 -0400, "Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com>
wrote in >::

>I think there should be a way to ensure that pilots
>who should never be up in the air in the first place never make it there.

Isn't that the responsibility of the Designated Pilot Examiner?

[Marco Leon]

I agree. I read the sarcasm to be towards me. Did I read it in a way that
was unintended?

Marco Leon


"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Marco Leon <mmleonyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I see your vote is for more idiots.
> <snip>
>
> Seems like Michael's post was dripping with sarcasm to me.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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News==----
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Newsgroups
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[Marco Leon]

Well, for one, there would be a good chance of bringing you up on criminal
charges. If I was the prosecutor, I'd start with a search on "reckless" and
"endangerment."

With that attitude, why didn't you save yourself some $$ and skip the
practical test?? Or maybe that's exactly what you did...

Marco Leon

"John Larson" <None ...> wrote in message
...
> Great plan. Revoke my license as much as you like. I will keep flying.
There
> are not enough people working for the FAA to hunt me down every weekend.
>
> When I was flying in AK, I know a couple of guys whose certificates were
> "pulled" for a period of time and they kept flying.
>
> Revocations and such mean nothing to the GA pilot. Just like you MUST have
a
> medical, BFR etc.
>
> Whose gonna "catch" us?
> "Michael" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> Maybe they should start thinking about a permanent revocation on severe
> >> TFR
> >> violations. Or maybe they should implement a wash-out possibility
> >> (similar to the
> >> miliary) during PPL training so these folks don't make it into the
system
> >> in
> >> the first place.
> >
> > Makes sense. Because after all, things will be so much better when
> > it's harder to obtain a pilot certificate, easier to lose it, and there
> > are fewer of us. I'm sure that even though we will represent fewer
> > dollars and fewer votes, the politicians (and various anti-noise,
> > anti-airport activists) will be reasonable and will reward us for being
> > responsible and policing our own ranks, and will not look at our
> > declining numbers as a cue that they can restrict us further in order
> > to appear to be "doing something" (or to increase the value of the
> > homes they bought at a discount next to the airport) with less
> > political fallout.
> >
> > Michael
> >
>
>



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[Michael]

> Getting rid of the bottom 10% of the
> barrel won't render us politically ineffective.

The bottom 10% of the barrel lasts exactly as long as the barrel
itself. Keep cutrting it, and we will be politically ineffective soon
enough. We're damn near there already.

There are already mechanisms in place to prevent the unfit from taking
to the skies - it takes both a CFI to sign off on the checkride, and a
DE to issue the ticket. What steps do you think you're going to add to
the process? Who will administer them?

If it's the same people, they need no new powers. A DE already has
very broad discretion for busting an applicant. A CFI has TOTAL
discretion for refusing to sign one off.

How effective do you think your filtering is going to be, anyway? For
every idiot you manage to remove, how many potentially good pilots will
you discourage with the extra hassle and expense?

There is already a process for revocation as well, and it's pretty
streamlined - no mucking about with any presumptions of innocence,
rules of evidence, or any such nonsense. If a fed wants to ground you,
he will gound you. Despite the fact that you can theoretically get a
new ticket later, how many people, exactly, have gone on to regain a
license after having it revoked (meaning actually had to start over
again with the private?) and then went on to commit more violations? I
believe they're all going to have a meeting next week in the back of my
Twin Comanche.

So you can make new rules - but who will enforce them? The same people
doing it now? Then the results will be no more effective.

Just so you know - plenty of people flying with no certificate at all.

Michael

[[email protected]]

I'd be running too, if F-16s were sending flares my way. Typical
HotDogger, pulls a stunt
and runs away.

A light spray of .50 caliber rounds upon landing would have insured his
surrender.

JG

[John Larson]

Great story about Washougal Washington, when the airport went to something
called the Port of Washougal.

The powers that were in the Port made up a bunch of new rules to be able to
part your AC at the airport and use a hangar etc.

As I remember it, you had to make copies of your certificate, medical and
insurance. It turned out there were some people who amazingly enough
(sarcasm) never got their license.

How about the IFR addition to the PPL.

It seems a guy went to South America to pick up some business partners and
upon return, it was foggy in the Portland area. I don't remember which hill
he hit - doesn't really matter since everyone was splattered all over it.
Turns out the guy had a PPL but never took the time to actually get the IFR
rating.

He had been flying for many years - just figured it out for himself.

Unless the TSA or Homeland security people put the Oregon Boot on every
small airplane in America, they can't keep us on the ground no matter how
many revocations the FAA issues.
"Michael" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Getting rid of the bottom 10% of the
>> barrel won't render us politically ineffective.
>
> The bottom 10% of the barrel lasts exactly as long as the barrel
> itself. Keep cutrting it, and we will be politically ineffective soon
> enough. We're damn near there already.
>
> There are already mechanisms in place to prevent the unfit from taking
> to the skies - it takes both a CFI to sign off on the checkride, and a
> DE to issue the ticket. What steps do you think you're going to add to
> the process? Who will administer them?
>
> If it's the same people, they need no new powers. A DE already has
> very broad discretion for busting an applicant. A CFI has TOTAL
> discretion for refusing to sign one off.
>
> How effective do you think your filtering is going to be, anyway? For
> every idiot you manage to remove, how many potentially good pilots will
> you discourage with the extra hassle and expense?
>
> There is already a process for revocation as well, and it's pretty
> streamlined - no mucking about with any presumptions of innocence,
> rules of evidence, or any such nonsense. If a fed wants to ground you,
> he will gound you. Despite the fact that you can theoretically get a
> new ticket later, how many people, exactly, have gone on to regain a
> license after having it revoked (meaning actually had to start over
> again with the private?) and then went on to commit more violations? I
> believe they're all going to have a meeting next week in the back of my
> Twin Comanche.
>
> So you can make new rules - but who will enforce them? The same people
> doing it now? Then the results will be no more effective.
>
> Just so you know - plenty of people flying with no certificate at all.
>
> Michael
>

[ORVAL FAIRAIRN]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> I'd be running too, if F-16s were sending flares my way. Typical
> HotDogger, pulls a stunt
> and runs away.
>
> A light spray of .50 caliber rounds upon landing would have insured his
> surrender.
>
> JG


Let's put "jgrove" and "Skylune" aboard as passengers!

[John Larson]

Skylune is posting out of the rubber room ward at Medical Lake insane
asylum, so you can't put him on.



"ORVAL FAIRAIRN" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
>> I'd be running too, if F-16s were sending flares my way. Typical
>> HotDogger, pulls a stunt
>> and runs away.
>>
>> A light spray of .50 caliber rounds upon landing would have insured his
>> surrender.
>>
>> JG
>
>
> Let's put "jgrove" and "Skylune" aboard as passengers!

[[email protected]]

ORVAL FAIRAIRN wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
> > I'd be running too, if F-16s were sending flares my way. Typical
> > HotDogger, pulls a stunt
> > and runs away.
> >
> > A light spray of .50 caliber rounds upon landing would have insured his
> > surrender.
> >
> > JG
>
>
> Let's put "jgrove" and "Skylune" aboard as passengers!

Flori-Dah is too hot and humid now, and its hurricane season.
Plenty of good rockin' at Northerly Is.:

Thu 08/04/05 Jim Messina
Thu 08/04/05 Kenny Loggins
Thu 08/04/05 Loggins & Messina
Wed 08/10/05 Matisyahu
Wed 08/10/05 Trey Anastasio
Thu 08/11/05 311
Thu 08/11/05 Papa Roach
Thu 08/11/05 Unwritten Law
Fri 08/12/05 "Rock Never Stops"
Fri 08/12/05 Cinderella
Fri 08/12/05 Firehouse
Fri 08/12/05 Quiet Riot
Fri 08/12/05 Ratt
Sat 08/13/05 Graham Colton Band
Sat 08/13/05 Kelly Clarkson
Fri 08/19/05 Backstreet Boys
Sat 08/20/05 "Feeling Better Than Everfine Festival"
Sat 08/20/05 As Fast As
Sat 08/20/05 Citizen Cope
Sat 08/20/05 Ludo
Sat 08/20/05 Michael Tolcher
Sat 08/20/05 O.A.R.
Sat 08/20/05 Pepper
Sat 08/20/05 Small Town Workers
Sat 08/20/05 State Radio
Sat 08/20/05 Stephen Kellogg
Sat 08/20/05 The Southland
Wed 08/24/05 Shawn Colvin
Sat 08/27/05 "Video Games Live"
Sun 08/28/05 ALO (Animal Liberation Orchestra)
Sun 08/28/05 Jack Johnson
Fri 09/02/05 BoDeans
Fri 09/02/05 Los Lobos
Sun 09/04/05 "Loopfest"
Sun 09/04/05 Billy Squier
Sun 09/04/05 Def Leppard
Sun 09/04/05 Silvertide

[ORVAL FAIRAIRN]

In article . com>,
wet the bed, smoked some dope and puked:

> ORVAL FAIRAIRN wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I'd be running too, if F-16s were sending flares my way. Typical
> > > HotDogger, pulls a stunt
> > > and runs away.
> > >
> > > A light spray of .50 caliber rounds upon landing would have insured his
> > > surrender.
> > >
> > > JG
> >
> >
> > Let's put "jgrove" and "Skylune" aboard as passengers!
>
> Flori-Dah is too hot and humid now, and its hurricane season.
> Plenty of good rockin' at Northerly Is.:
>
> Thu 08/04/05 Jim Messina
> Thu 08/04/05 Kenny Loggins
> Thu 08/04/05 Loggins & Messina
> Wed 08/10/05 Matisyahu
> Wed 08/10/05 Trey Anastasio
> Thu 08/11/05 311
> Thu 08/11/05 Papa Roach
> Thu 08/11/05 Unwritten Law
> Fri 08/12/05 "Rock Never Stops"
> Fri 08/12/05 Cinderella
> Fri 08/12/05 Firehouse
> Fri 08/12/05 Quiet Riot
> Fri 08/12/05 Ratt
> Sat 08/13/05 Graham Colton Band
> Sat 08/13/05 Kelly Clarkson
> Fri 08/19/05 Backstreet Boys
> Sat 08/20/05 "Feeling Better Than Everfine Festival"
> Sat 08/20/05 As Fast As
> Sat 08/20/05 Citizen Cope
> Sat 08/20/05 Ludo
> Sat 08/20/05 Michael Tolcher
> Sat 08/20/05 O.A.R.
> Sat 08/20/05 Pepper
> Sat 08/20/05 Small Town Workers
> Sat 08/20/05 State Radio
> Sat 08/20/05 Stephen Kellogg
> Sat 08/20/05 The Southland
> Wed 08/24/05 Shawn Colvin
> Sat 08/27/05 "Video Games Live"
> Sun 08/28/05 ALO (Animal Liberation Orchestra)
> Sun 08/28/05 Jack Johnson
> Fri 09/02/05 BoDeans
> Fri 09/02/05 Los Lobos
> Sun 09/04/05 "Loopfest"
> Sun 09/04/05 Billy Squier
> Sun 09/04/05 Def Leppard
> Sun 09/04/05 Silvertide

It sounds like a parade of garbage, fit for the likes of "jgrove." So,
NI is now a hangout for the dope crowd -- it figures.

[[email protected]]

>
> It sounds like a parade of garbage, fit for the likes of "jgrove." So,
> NI is now a hangout for the dope crowd -- it figures.

El Rush-bo didn't RSVP, but other operating airports have joined the
trend:

Galt Airport
Located in Greenwood, IL
Sat 08/27/05 Foreigner

in addition many "airports" have listed events in pollstar.com
South Bend Airport
Located in South Bend, IN
Sun 09/11/05 Sugarland
Sun 09/11/05 Tracy Lawrence

Fitchburg Municipal Airport
Located in Fitchburg, MA
All Dates Shown - Found 3 Items
Sun 09/18/05 "Locobazooka!"
Sun 09/18/05 Disturbed
Sun 09/18/05 Ill Nino

Municipal Airport Hangar
Located in Springdale, AR
Fri 12/02/05 Kool & The Gang

Cross City Airport
Located in Cross City, FL
All Dates Shown - Found 3 Items
Sat 09/03/05 Bryan White
Sat 09/03/05 Earl Thomas Conley
Sat 09/03/05 Mark Chesnutt

[[email protected]]

>
> It sounds like a parade of garbage, fit for the likes of "jgrove." So,
> NI is now a hangout for the dope crowd -- it figures.

El Rush-bo didn't RSVP, but other operating airports have joined the
trend:

Galt Airport
Located in Greenwood, IL
Sat 08/27/05 Foreigner

in addition many "airports" have listed events in pollstar.com
South Bend Airport
Located in South Bend, IN
Sun 09/11/05 Sugarland
Sun 09/11/05 Tracy Lawrence

Fitchburg Municipal Airport
Located in Fitchburg, MA
All Dates Shown - Found 3 Items
Sun 09/18/05 "Locobazooka!"
Sun 09/18/05 Disturbed
Sun 09/18/05 Ill Nino

Municipal Airport Hangar
Located in Springdale, AR
Fri 12/02/05 Kool & The Gang

Cross City Airport
Located in Cross City, FL
All Dates Shown - Found 3 Items
Sat 09/03/05 Bryan White
Sat 09/03/05 Earl Thomas Conley
Sat 09/03/05 Mark Chesnutt

[ORVAL FAIRAIRN]

In article . com>,
wet the bed (again) and puked:

> >
> > It sounds like a parade of garbage, fit for the likes of "jgrove." So,
> > NI is now a hangout for the dope crowd -- it figures.
>
> El Rush-bo didn't RSVP, but other operating airports have joined the
> trend:
>
> Galt Airport
> Located in Greenwood, IL
> Sat 08/27/05 Foreigner
>
> in addition many "airports" have listed events in pollstar.com
> South Bend Airport
> Located in South Bend, IN
> Sun 09/11/05 Sugarland
> Sun 09/11/05 Tracy Lawrence
>
> Fitchburg Municipal Airport
> Located in Fitchburg, MA
> All Dates Shown - Found 3 Items
> Sun 09/18/05 "Locobazooka!"
> Sun 09/18/05 Disturbed
> Sun 09/18/05 Ill Nino
>
> Municipal Airport Hangar
> Located in Springdale, AR
> Fri 12/02/05 Kool & The Gang
>
> Cross City Airport
> Located in Cross City, FL
> All Dates Shown - Found 3 Items
> Sat 09/03/05 Bryan White
> Sat 09/03/05 Earl Thomas Conley
> Sat 09/03/05 Mark Chesnutt

And -- they didn't have to butcher the airport to do it (like Chicago).

Wher are Mrs. O"Leary and her cow when their city needs them?

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> >
> > It sounds like a parade of garbage, fit for the likes of "jgrove." So,
> > NI is now a hangout for the dope crowd -- it figures.
>
> El Rush-bo didn't RSVP, but other operating airports have joined the
> trend:
>
> Galt Airport
> Located in Greenwood, IL
> Sat 08/27/05 Foreigner
>
> in addition many "airports" have listed events in pollstar.com
> South Bend Airport
> Located in South Bend, IN
> Sun 09/11/05 Sugarland
> Sun 09/11/05 Tracy Lawrence
>
> Fitchburg Municipal Airport
> Located in Fitchburg, MA
> All Dates Shown - Found 3 Items
> Sun 09/18/05 "Locobazooka!"
> Sun 09/18/05 Disturbed
> Sun 09/18/05 Ill Nino
>
> Municipal Airport Hangar
> Located in Springdale, AR
> Fri 12/02/05 Kool & The Gang
>
> Cross City Airport
> Located in Cross City, FL
> All Dates Shown - Found 3 Items
> Sat 09/03/05 Bryan White
> Sat 09/03/05 Earl Thomas Conley
> Sat 09/03/05 Mark Chesnutt

Five airports hardly qualifies as "many." Don't know about the others but
there is a reason Galt must bring in such non aviation events.

[Skylune]

Cute, but your "research" is just as flawed as that other poster who was
trying to locate me for some unknown reason....

Here's a quote from you, Mr. Whacko pilot:

"Great plan. Revoke my license as much as you like. I will keep flying.
There
are not enough people working for the FAA to hunt me down every weekend.

When I was flying in AK, I know a couple of guys whose certificates were
"pulled" for a period of time and they kept flying.

Revocations and such mean nothing to the GA pilot. Just like you MUST
have
a
medical, BFR etc.

Whose gonna "catch" us?"


That's just beautiful.

[John Larson]

Thanks Skytune, oops, Skylune.

You call me "Whacko?"

Read some of your previous posts. (Nutcase Troll.)


"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> Cute, but your "research" is just as flawed as that other poster who was
> trying to locate me for some unknown reason....
>
> Here's a quote from you, Mr. Whacko pilot:
>
> "Great plan. Revoke my license as much as you like. I will keep flying.
> There
> are not enough people working for the FAA to hunt me down every weekend.
>
> When I was flying in AK, I know a couple of guys whose certificates were
> "pulled" for a period of time and they kept flying.
>
> Revocations and such mean nothing to the GA pilot. Just like you MUST
> have
> a
> medical, BFR etc.
>
> Whose gonna "catch" us?"
>
>
> That's just beautiful.
>
>

[Skylune]

Being insulted by a person such as yourself, who threatens to break the law
and even brags about it, is no biggie.....

I have never threatened to break any laws, and would not do so. I will
continue to fight the huge taxpayer subsidies that GA enjoys as well as
the irresponsible actions of a minority of pilots (you seem to be in that
group) using LEGAL, political means.

[[email protected]]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > >
> > > It sounds like a parade of garbage, fit for the likes of "jgrove." So,
> > > NI is now a hangout for the dope crowd -- it figures.
> >
> > El Rush-bo didn't RSVP, but other operating airports have joined the
> > trend:
> >
> > Galt Airport
> > Located in Greenwood, IL
> > Sat 08/27/05 Foreigner
> >
> > in addition many "airports" have listed events in pollstar.com
>
> Five airports hardly qualifies as "many." Don't know about the others but
> there is a reason Galt must bring in such non aviation events.

Pollstar.com lists 38 "airport" venues that have had events at one
time.
Sounds like a case of: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

JG

[[email protected]]

ORVAL FAIRAIRN wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wet the bed (again) and puked:
>
> > >
> > > It sounds like a parade of garbage, fit for the likes of "jgrove." So,
> > > NI is now a hangout for the dope crowd -- it figures.
> >
> > El Rush-bo didn't RSVP, but other operating airports have joined the
> > trend:
> > South Bend Airport
> > Located in South Bend, IN
> > Sun 09/11/05 Sugarland
> > Sun 09/11/05 Tracy Lawrence

Moonshine and Meth for the refined conniseurs of South Bend.

>
> And -- they didn't have to butcher the airport to do it (like Chicago).
>
> Wher are Mrs. O"Leary and her cow when their city needs them?

The cow was replaced by GA trained Saudi hijackers.

JG

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Dave Stadt wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It sounds like a parade of garbage, fit for the likes of "jgrove."
So,
> > > > NI is now a hangout for the dope crowd -- it figures.
> > >
> > > El Rush-bo didn't RSVP, but other operating airports have joined the
> > > trend:
> > >
> > > Galt Airport
> > > Located in Greenwood, IL
> > > Sat 08/27/05 Foreigner
> > >
> > > in addition many "airports" have listed events in pollstar.com
> >
> > Five airports hardly qualifies as "many." Don't know about the others
but
> > there is a reason Galt must bring in such non aviation events.
>
> Pollstar.com lists 38 "airport" venues that have had events at one
> time.
> Sounds like a case of: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
>
> JG

38 doesn't prove your claims any better than does 5.