VFR PHL to 5B6

[RNR]

I'm contemplating a flight from the Philly area to Cape Cod. My
biggest concern is the huge Class B area that encompasses Newark and
the New York Airports. I often fly around the Philly Bravo with
little in the way of route disruption. It will, however be a long way
around this airspace.

My question is this: is it unreasonable (or unsafe) to consider flying
over the New York Bravo? That would make my trip much more direct. I
doubt that I would get clearance to fly through. I also doubt that I
would be able to get flight following. I am a little concerned about
flying over the Bravo, especially considering Maule Driver's recent
post about overflying Philly's space. If I do fly over the Bravo,
should I call approach and give them a heads-up about my intentions
(and maybe get flight following that way) or are they too busy to be
concerned with a VFR flyover? Thanks.
Rich Russell

[Michelle P]

Rich,
I have flown over, under and through the New York Class B.
Over is just fine but getting up there may take a while.
If you do not mind water going under is quite doable. You can fly under
around the east side. Only about 10 minutes over water and lots of time
saved. You can ever call them up and ask to go through. 5500 north bound
Directly over JFK the out to Calverton VOR.

Michelle

RNR wrote:

>I'm contemplating a flight from the Philly area to Cape Cod. My
>biggest concern is the huge Class B area that encompasses Newark and
>the New York Airports. I often fly around the Philly Bravo with
>little in the way of route disruption. It will, however be a long way
>around this airspace.
>
>My question is this: is it unreasonable (or unsafe) to consider flying
>over the New York Bravo? That would make my trip much more direct. I
>doubt that I would get clearance to fly through. I also doubt that I
>would be able to get flight following. I am a little concerned about
>flying over the Bravo, especially considering Maule Driver's recent
>post about overflying Philly's space. If I do fly over the Bravo,
>should I call approach and give them a heads-up about my intentions
>(and maybe get flight following that way) or are they too busy to be
>concerned with a VFR flyover? Thanks.
>Rich Russell
>
>

[Maule Driver]

Regarding my post - please don't read into my reflections that there was
anything wrong with my flight. Because of the way I've been flying
(generally IFR), I found a non-talking VFR a flight a bit strange.

Having said that, I've found NY ATC very accomodating when they can be.
I'd say that an over the top flight is fine, weather permitting. Give
it a full 1,000 ft clearance and talk to them. Good advice given by
Jose and others in my thread.

Though it doesn't directly relate to your flight, one of the most
beautiful flights I've done recently was KHPN to Durham IFR. I planned
and expected to be cleared somewhere out over Jersey. It was a
beautiful dawn over NYC and I was cleared directly over JFK at 5,000.
Despite 4 or 5 departures having to halt their ascents until seeing or
clearing me, it appeared to be no problem. And again, all quite beautiful.

RNR wrote:
> I'm contemplating a flight from the Philly area to Cape Cod. My
> biggest concern is the huge Class B area that encompasses Newark and
> the New York Airports. I often fly around the Philly Bravo with
> little in the way of route disruption. It will, however be a long way
> around this airspace.
>
> My question is this: is it unreasonable (or unsafe) to consider flying
> over the New York Bravo? That would make my trip much more direct. I
> doubt that I would get clearance to fly through. I also doubt that I
> would be able to get flight following. I am a little concerned about
> flying over the Bravo, especially considering Maule Driver's recent
> post about overflying Philly's space. If I do fly over the Bravo,
> should I call approach and give them a heads-up about my intentions
> (and maybe get flight following that way) or are they too busy to be
> concerned with a VFR flyover? Thanks.
> Rich Russell

[Maule Driver]

Rich, remember to look out for all the Maule traffic around the Class B!

Michelle P wrote:
> Rich,
> I have flown over, under and through the New York Class B.
> Over is just fine but getting up there may take a while.
> If you do not mind water going under is quite doable. You can fly under
> around the east side. Only about 10 minutes over water and lots of time
> saved. You can ever call them up and ask to go through. 5500 north bound
> Directly over JFK the out to Calverton VOR.
>

[RNR]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:03:36 GMT, Michelle P
> wrote:

>Rich,
>I have flown over, under and through the New York Class B.
>Over is just fine but getting up there may take a while.
>If you do not mind water going under is quite doable. You can fly under
>around the east side. Only about 10 minutes over water and lots of time
>saved. You can ever call them up and ask to go through. 5500 north bound
>Directly over JFK the out to Calverton VOR.
>
>Michelle
>
Thanks for the reply. I have been considering flying under the east
side and may still do that.
Rich Russell

[Guy Elden Jr]

Flying IFR into and out of the NY Class B is definitely the easiest,
but I've come in a few times via FF and that worked out just as easily
as IFR. Just be on your toes and don't miss a radio call from them, as
things can get _very_ hectic in short order.

One of the best flights I ever had was flying from Sky Acres airport
(about 8 miles NNE of Poughkeepsie) up to 8500 feet, directly over LGA,
east of the East River over Queens & Brooklyn, then descending through
the Class B, rounding the southern tip of Manhattan, back up the
Hudson, and then direct from about Central Park to Caldwell airport,
all while talking to NY Approach. They were incredibly accomodating,
and I could tell they definitely appreciated the call up as I
approached from the north. Even though I would've been well above their
airspace, I figured it couldn't hurt to be talking to them, so
definitely give them a call up... you'll get some traffic calls for
planes departing EWR, JFK, and LGA, so maybe plan ahead and figure out
which runways are active at each airport... then you'll know exactly
where to look for departing traffic.

--
Guy Elden Jr.

[RNR]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:28:52 GMT, Maule Driver
> wrote:

>Regarding my post - please don't read into my reflections that there was
>anything wrong with my flight. Because of the way I've been flying
>(generally IFR), I found a non-talking VFR a flight a bit strange.
>
>Having said that, I've found NY ATC very accomodating when they can be.
> I'd say that an over the top flight is fine, weather permitting. Give
>it a full 1,000 ft clearance and talk to them. Good advice given by
>Jose and others in my thread.
>
snipped...

Thanks Maule. I don't think I'm reading too much into your comments.
You did, however, reinforce in my mind the slightly unsettling feeling
that I get when I realize that I'm the traffic that ATC is warning
someone about. I can see how a VFR flight over the Bravo would be
condidered a nuisance by ATC, even though it is legal. I'd like to
talk to them, but I'm not too proud to admit that I'm a little
intimidated about talking to those rapid-fire New York controllers.
I've flown the VFR exclusion up the Hudson River before but I've never
communicatd with NY approach. That flight was all self-announcing.
Rich Russell

[George Patterson]

RNR wrote:
>
> My question is this: is it unreasonable (or unsafe) to consider flying
> over the New York Bravo? That would make my trip much more direct.

Quite reasonable -- I've done it a few times. Another solution is to fly up the
Hudson at 900' to just past the northern tip of Manhattan island, climb to
1,400', turn right, and fly along the northern shore of Long Island sound.
That's the way I went up the last time I flew up there.

Personally, I would approach Newark airspace at something like 2500' or more and
contact Newark ATC as soon as practical. Try to get clearance through the
class-B (can't hurt). If that's denied, I would drop down and shoot the Hudson
corridor.

You can also stay under the B and skirt the southern shore of Long Island for a
very direct route, but you'll have a fair amount of water to cross if you go
that way.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

RNR wrote:
>
> I can see how a VFR flight over the Bravo would be
> condidered a nuisance by ATC, even though it is legal.

ATC wasn't warning anyone about me when I flew over New York.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Marco Leon]

Hi Rich,
I've found that it's much easier to get a clearance into the NY Class B
coming in from the West. I would definitely give it a try before you trek up
and over the airspace. It's really no big deal. Just have a plan of where
your route will be. Typically the controllers will route you right over JFK
then over FRG. Just make sure you keep your assigned heading and altitude.
It's also pretty exhilarating flying over JFK with 747's and 767's flying
underneath you.

If you're uncomfortable going through, then I would also no go underneath.
It's a bit more complex since you'll be going along the south shore of Long
Island at 500 ft. and the Class B does not overlap the land exactly.
Sometimes the traffic can get hectic under there as well since it acts like
a funnel for transitioning traffic. I've done it many times and it's quite a
cool experience.

Good luck in whatever you do but I would definitely try getting a clearance
through first.

Regards,

Marco Leon

"RNR" > wrote in message
...
> I'm contemplating a flight from the Philly area to Cape Cod. My
> biggest concern is the huge Class B area that encompasses Newark and
> the New York Airports. I often fly around the Philly Bravo with
> little in the way of route disruption. It will, however be a long way
> around this airspace.
>
> My question is this: is it unreasonable (or unsafe) to consider flying
> over the New York Bravo? That would make my trip much more direct. I
> doubt that I would get clearance to fly through. I also doubt that I
> would be able to get flight following. I am a little concerned about
> flying over the Bravo, especially considering Maule Driver's recent
> post about overflying Philly's space. If I do fly over the Bravo,
> should I call approach and give them a heads-up about my intentions
> (and maybe get flight following that way) or are they too busy to be
> concerned with a VFR flyover? Thanks.
> Rich Russell



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[Maule Driver]

Guy Elden Jr wrote:
> Just be on your toes and don't miss a radio call from them, as
> things can get _very_ hectic in short order.
>
Amen. About 25 years ago I missed a call or two while doing Caldwell to
KHPN. I got a tongue lashing that took a few years to forget. I blame
it partially on poor audio. I wasn't wearing a headset at the time -
they were far from in universal use.

But the NY Controllers are great. The controllers who can do the high
density stuff, seem to thrive on it. Making it all work may be the
reward. All you have to do is hold up your end of the bargain and tell
them what you want, hear what they are saying, and do what you commit to
do. Drop the ball, and it takes about 2 of those NY seconds to let you
know.

It's funny how time and experience change things. A tongue lashing from
a controller wouldn't bother me much now. Doing something stupid or
dangerous in front of other pilots would.

[[email protected]]

George Patterson wrote:
> RNR wrote:
> >
> > My question is this: is it unreasonable (or unsafe) to consider flying
> > over the New York Bravo? That would make my trip much more direct.
>
> Quite reasonable -- I've done it a few times. Another solution is to fly up the
> Hudson at 900' to just past the northern tip of Manhattan island, climb to
> 1,400', turn right, and fly along the northern shore of Long Island sound.
> That's the way I went up the last time I flew up there.
>
> Personally, I would approach Newark airspace at something like 2500' or more and
> contact Newark ATC as soon as practical. Try to get clearance through the
> class-B (can't hurt). If that's denied, I would drop down and shoot the Hudson
> corridor.

The corridor is great but next to a narrow pass through the Rocky
Mountains I can't imagine a more intimidating place for a first-timer.
Even when you do it properly it's hard to believe it's really legal.
But it's also something no pilot should miss doing at least once.

-cwk.

[RNR]

On 27 Jul 2005 12:38:36 -0700, wrote:

>
>
>George Patterson wrote:
>> RNR wrote:
>> >
>> > My question is this: is it unreasonable (or unsafe) to consider flying
>> > over the New York Bravo? That would make my trip much more direct.
>>
>> Quite reasonable -- I've done it a few times. Another solution is to fly up the
>> Hudson at 900' to just past the northern tip of Manhattan island, climb to
>> 1,400', turn right, and fly along the northern shore of Long Island sound.
>> That's the way I went up the last time I flew up there.
>>
>> Personally, I would approach Newark airspace at something like 2500' or more and
>> contact Newark ATC as soon as practical. Try to get clearance through the
>> class-B (can't hurt). If that's denied, I would drop down and shoot the Hudson
>> corridor.
>
>The corridor is great but next to a narrow pass through the Rocky
>Mountains I can't imagine a more intimidating place for a first-timer.
>Even when you do it properly it's hard to believe it's really legal.
>But it's also something no pilot should miss doing at least once.
>
>-cwk.

I've flown the corridor before and it is magnificent. You described
my feelings perfectly. I had difficulty believing that what I was
doing was actually legal. I recommend that trip to everyone. Just
study the TAC first.
Rich Russell

[William Snow]

I have often flown that route. If you are doing it VFR, include Colts Neck
VOR in your trip and as you approach the VOR give NYApproach a call on
124.75 (I think) Ask them for 3500' through Class Bravo to Calverton. They
will likely accommodate you if they are not too busy. The view is great!
Good luck!

[RNR]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:00:02 -0400, "William Snow"
> wrote:

>I have often flown that route. If you are doing it VFR, include Colts Neck
>VOR in your trip and as you approach the VOR give NYApproach a call on
>124.75 (I think) Ask them for 3500' through Class Bravo to Calverton. They
>will likely accommodate you if they are not too busy. The view is great!
>Good luck!
>
Thanks, I'll try that.
Rich Russell

[Andrew Gideon]

RNR wrote:

> but I'm not too proud to admit that I'm a little
> intimidated about talking to those rapid-fire New York controllers.

Get over this, and talk to them. They're people too, you know, and
typically as helpful as circumstances permit. I was once overflying
Manhattan (VFR, showing off to a "tourist") with an LGA controller working
only me.

One option for you involves staying low and flying one of the "corridors".
There's an official exclusion zone which you can take up the Hudson and
never be speaking to anyone (which I see you've flown before). That's an
option for you heading to the north.

There's an unofficial corridor at 1000 and below along the Garden State
Parkway. I've been told that this is because of traffic reporters, but I
don't know. I've used this a few times to cut through. Of course, you do
need to be speaking to them (you'll actually be speaking to EWR) for this.

You can fly north to, and then over, CDW at something like 3500 (or perhaps
above). I've done that a few times too.

Or you can sneak under the shelf south of JFK, and then overfly LI and the
LI Sound. That's not my favorite idea, however.

Watching on RADAR, I see a lot of traffic heading up the Hudson w/in the
class B. You could try to request that at some reasonable altitude, for
another option.

Or, you could just overfly while getting advisories.

It doesn't hurt to ask, and to try different options if one isn't available.
And several of these options aren't even something you'd have to request at
all. But I do recommend talking to ATC. I do that whenever I can, even if
just out for some chandelles and such. An extra pair of eyes is never a
bad thing. And the more you do this, the easier it'll get.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

RNR wrote:

> IÂ*hadÂ*difficultyÂ*believingÂ*thatÂ*whatÂ*IÂ*was
> doing was actually legal.Â*Â*IÂ*recommendÂ*thatÂ*tripÂ*toÂ*everyone.

It is just that much fun. I too recommend it.

- Andrew