CAP vs. GC Aux

[Robert M. Gary]

I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions. There are
lots and lots and lots of training courses and certifications you much
receive first.
I've also noticed that we have a Coast Guard Auxiliary in town
(Sacramento) with an active aviation unit. What is the difference to a
pilot (in terms of training, missions, aircraft) between CG and AF aux?

BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
uniform BX privs.

-Robert, CFI

[Newps]

It takes a full year to make you one of the dumbest pilots in the sky.
CAP pilots are well known to be so far behind their 182 they wouldn't be
hurt in the crash.



Robert M. Gary wrote:

> I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
> at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions. There are
> lots and lots and lots of training courses and certifications you much
> receive first.
> I've also noticed that we have a Coast Guard Auxiliary in town
> (Sacramento) with an active aviation unit. What is the difference to a
> pilot (in terms of training, missions, aircraft) between CG and AF aux?
>
> BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
> uniform BX privs.
>
> -Robert, CFI
>

[Hotel 179]

--

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
> at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions. There are
> lots and lots and lots of training courses and certifications you much
> receive first.
> I've also noticed that we have a Coast Guard Auxiliary in town
> (Sacramento) with an active aviation unit. What is the difference to a
> pilot (in terms of training, missions, aircraft) between CG and AF aux?
>
> BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
> uniform BX privs.
>
> -Robert, CFI
----------------------------------------reply--------------------------------------------

Robert,

Where are you a CAP member? A CAPF 5 checkride takes no time at all. With
your CFI you could breeze the CAPF 91 Mission Pilot checkride.....if you
have been told that it takes a year, someone has misrepresented the program.

Several friends of mine are Coast Guard Aux members. Down here on the Gulf
of Mexico, we work closely together. We have a Super-Wal-Mart in town:)

Semper vi,

Stephen
Baldwin County Composite Squadron
ALWG

[Bob Gardner]

No way do CG Auxiliary members get ANY base privileges.

Bob Gardner
USCG (Ret)

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
> at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions. There are
> lots and lots and lots of training courses and certifications you much
> receive first.
> I've also noticed that we have a Coast Guard Auxiliary in town
> (Sacramento) with an active aviation unit. What is the difference to a
> pilot (in terms of training, missions, aircraft) between CG and AF aux?
>
> BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
> uniform BX privs.
>
> -Robert, CFI
>

[Robert M. Gary]

Strange, since they tend to have more recurrent training than most 206
(and 182) pilots. CAP members have to take a private checkride every 12
months.

[Robert M. Gary]

It may be different here in California. I'm told that before I can take
the 91 ride I need some other things including...
1) General Emergency Serivices training
2) Spotter certification (lots of classes and in flight training)
3) UDF operator (to locate ELTs) (again lots of classes and hands on
training)
4) Pilot tech. certificate

I'm also told that Nomex is 100% required for all missions. I guess we
had a CAP flight go down a while back and some guys burned. Of course,
just like anything else you can wear either the AF Nomex or the CAP
Nomex. CAP is blue, AF is olive, both feel great when its 110F outside
:) For orientation rides you can wear any AF or CAP uniform, including
(this is recent) the gold shirt.

-Robert

[Ronald Gardner]

Yes CAP requires a lot of training! However in order to do the job
correctly and professionally it is the only way. You don't want to be a
yahoo do gooder that can't find a downed pilot that you should have found
and then try to explain it to the family why you failed. It happens even
with the best training, it is a tough job under ideal conditions and most
of the time they are not ideal when you are needed. I am a qualified right
seater and scanner, I am still working towards Command Pilot but until I am
sure I can do the job 100% I will not take the check ride. I joined
because as a pilot, if I need the help some day, I want to know there are
people willing to volunteer their time to be Professional SAR personnel.
Same goes for if you live in a community served by a Volunteer Fire Dept.,
if you need them you want them to know what they are doing i.e. trained and
you should be willing to support them in case you need them in return some
day.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

> I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
> at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions. There are
> lots and lots and lots of training courses and certifications you much
> receive first.
> I've also noticed that we have a Coast Guard Auxiliary in town
> (Sacramento) with an active aviation unit. What is the difference to a
> pilot (in terms of training, missions, aircraft) between CG and AF aux?
>
> BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
> uniform BX privs.
>
> -Robert, CFI

[Ray Bengen]

Disagree.

http://www.acap.army.mil/transitioner/Coast%20Guard%20Aux%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

CGAUX pilot training and certification is more bureaucratic than CAP in my
opinion and experience. CAP provide aircraft to fly, CGAUX doesn't
normally.

Both are great organizations with their own unique BS's.

Join and fly in both if you can.

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:04:25 -0700, Bob Gardner > wrote:

> No way do CG Auxiliary members get ANY base privileges.
>
> Bob Gardner
> USCG (Ret)
>
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
>> at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions. There are
>> lots and lots and lots of training courses and certifications you much
>> receive first.
>> I've also noticed that we have a Coast Guard Auxiliary in town
>> (Sacramento) with an active aviation unit. What is the difference to a
>> pilot (in terms of training, missions, aircraft) between CG and AF aux?
>>
>> BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
>> uniform BX privs.
>>
>> -Robert, CFI
>>
>
>



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

[Ronald Gardner]

Spoken like someone who thinks he is all knowing and the gods gift to
flying! Glad I you are not my CFI. As your statement shows a level of
knowledge and thought of a true moron!

Newps wrote:

> It takes a full year to make you one of the dumbest pilots in the sky.
> CAP pilots are well known to be so far behind their 182 they wouldn't be
> hurt in the crash.
>
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> > I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
> > at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions. There are
> > lots and lots and lots of training courses and certifications you much
> > receive first.
> > I've also noticed that we have a Coast Guard Auxiliary in town
> > (Sacramento) with an active aviation unit. What is the difference to a
> > pilot (in terms of training, missions, aircraft) between CG and AF aux?
> >
> > BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
> > uniform BX privs.
> >
> > -Robert, CFI
> >

[Hotel 179]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> It may be different here in California. I'm told that before I can take
> the 91 ride I need some other things including...
> 1) General Emergency Serivices training
> 2) Spotter certification (lots of classes and in flight training)
> 3) UDF operator (to locate ELTs) (again lots of classes and hands on
> training)
> 4) Pilot tech. certificate
>
> I'm also told that Nomex is 100% required for all missions. I guess we
> had a CAP flight go down a while back and some guys burned. Of course,
> just like anything else you can wear either the AF Nomex or the CAP
> Nomex. CAP is blue, AF is olive, both feel great when its 110F outside
> :) For orientation rides you can wear any AF or CAP uniform, including
> (this is recent) the gold shirt.
>
> -Robert
>
Hello Robert and everyone,

The CAP regs are the same down here south of I-10....it's just the General
Emergency Services Qual doesn't take that long....have you looked at the 116
exam? Once you've taken it, you are GES qual'd. The preparation is not
difficult.

Have you started completing the SQTR for Scanner/Observer? I see in the CAP
data base that you are listed as an SM. Talk to the Professional
Development guy in CA151 and ask about rank, if that's important to you.
Find someone to mentor you through the process. If they are a SET qual'd
that's even better.

Again, get started filling out the SQTR for Urban DF. It ain't rocket
science. We use the Little L-per and a Tracker. Look in the publications
section of the National HQ website and find the pamphlet on ELT
searches.....a few pictures and not much plot but it tells you everything
that you need to know.

If the Nomex flight suits are required, it's a local thing for your group.
I wear it on missions but not on other flights such as Cadet O-rides, travel
to meetings, or currency rides.

If you need mission participation credit, plan a trip to LA, the Redneck
Riviera. We fly missions Thursday through Sunday this time of year.

Semper vi.,

Stephen
Foley, Alabama
AL112

[Newps]

Ronald Gardner wrote:

> Yes CAP requires a lot of training! However in order to do the job
> correctly and professionally it is the only way. You don't want to be a
> yahoo do gooder that can't find a downed pilot that you should have found
> and then try to explain it to the family why you failed.


Here in Montana we don't really let CAP do search and rescue. The
Montana Aeronautics Division along with the Montana Pilots Assoc handles
the search and rescue duties when needed. They have a training class
each September that teaches all the necessary things about SAR. No
stupid nomex suits when it's hot out either. Any licensed pilot in
Montana can take the class and when SAR is needed they now have a
database of qualified pilots all over the state that can be in the air
in a very short time.

[Hotel 179]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Here in Montana we don't really let CAP do search and rescue. The Montana
> Aeronautics Division along with the Montana Pilots Assoc handles the
> search and rescue duties when needed.

--------------------------------------reply-----------------------------------------------------

How is the alerting routed to the pilot's association? In CAP, it comes
from the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center at Langley. Other places
handle "Search and Rescue" or "Search and Locate" without CAP involvement.

What type of ground team coordination do you have in Montana? We always say
that we can search, but someone on the ground has to rescue. I flew a
mission last Thursday where the ground team was the local Sheriff's Deputies
and members of the volunteer fire department. CAP has adopted an Incident
Command response and multi-agency missions has become the norm.

Thanks,

Stephen

[Newps]

Hotel 179 wrote:
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Here in Montana we don't really let CAP do search and rescue. The Montana
>>Aeronautics Division along with the Montana Pilots Assoc handles the
>>search and rescue duties when needed.
>
>
> --------------------------------------reply-----------------------------------------------------
>
> How is the alerting routed to the pilot's association?
At CAP, it comes
> from the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center at Langley. Other places
> handle "Search and Rescue" or "Search and Locate" without CAP involvement.

Montana Aeronautics gets the call when the RCC decides to initiate SAR.
The RCC is not the only one to initiate it either, just one of
several.

>
> What type of ground team coordination do you have in Montana? We always say
> that we can search, but someone on the ground has to rescue. I flew a
> mission last Thursday where the ground team was the local Sheriff's Deputies
> and members of the volunteer fire department. CAP has adopted an Incident
> Command response and multi-agency missions has become the norm.

It's all handled thru Montana Aeronautics. They will figure out who
best to handle the ground stuff. It may be the local sherriff, it may
be other SAR qualified pilots working on the ground. It depends on
where the wreck is believed to be. We have some pretty remote country
here, both in the mounatins and in the plains.

[Hotel 179]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
.. We have some pretty remote country
> here, both in the mounatins and in the plains.
-----------------------------------------------reply---------------------------------------------------

We have some pretty remote country here in Alabama....there's the one
mountain up in the north part of the state that is nearly 1500'. Some of
the beach in our area is so remote that you have to carry the beer cooler
nearly 200 yards before you reach the sand. Very unforgiving territory!

Stephen
Foley, Alabama

[Trent Moorehead]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
> at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions.

My impressions are that there is a lot of paperwork and beaurocratic BS
involved in CAP. I don't believe it's any different in other similar
organzations though. It's not for everyone, that's for sure.

There are quite a few hoops to jump through on your way to becoming a
mission pilot, but once you are there, you get to fly quite a lot. The
training and testing is not particularly hard either. Yeah, it will take
some time to complete the training, but not necessarily a year or two. I
would say that you could be a mission pilot in under six months if you have
the minimum hours and the squadron flies enough practice missions. Getting
the missions required is usually the bottleneck at our squadron. I feel the
need to say something........

I do get generally irritated by those who love to take pot shots at CAP. I
don't know where that comes from, but I wish it would stop. It's a good
organization made up of volunteers giving back to their community. We are
doing positive things for young folks as well. It's not perfect, but I just
don't understand why there's got to be some yahoo that comes on this
newgroup to tear down CAP whenever it's mentioned. There. I feel better.

We had a member who came from the CG Aux. He compared the two favorably and
didn't express a lot of misgivings about coming to CAP. He was a non-pilot
though.

Hope this helps.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[John Clear]

In article . com>,
Robert M. Gary > wrote:
>
>I'm also told that Nomex is 100% required for all missions. I guess we
>had a CAP flight go down a while back and some guys burned. Of course,
>just like anything else you can wear either the AF Nomex or the CAP
>Nomex. CAP is blue, AF is olive, both feel great when its 110F outside

I'm not in CAP any more (too much paper work and politics, not
enough of actually doing anything useful). The crash you refer to
involved one of the guys in the squadron I was in then, and two
other guys from the local group.

The two other guys didn't make it, the guy from my squadron spent
a few months in the burn unit and was not able to regain use of
one of his hands. He was wearing nomex, but most of the serious
burns were on his face and hands. He was the back seat scanner,
and after getting out, tried to pull the two pilots out through
the flames. Nomex is only fire resistant, and not heat resistant.
It buys you a few seconds, but unless you are wearing a thick race
car driver style suit, you need to get out quick.

The plane they were looking for had crashed a week earlier and was
not found until two days after the CAP plane went down. No flight
plan was filed for the flight over the mountains, and the ELT did
not activate. The ELT not activating is typical of an actual crash.
When I was in CAP, and I doubt the stats have changed much, 99+%
of ELT signals were false alarms, and ELTs failed to activate in
~97% of crashes. In the 15 years I spent in CAP, I'm only directly[1]
aware of one ELT signal leading to an actual aircraft in distress[2].
Anecdotal evidence, but my experience doing the 2am search for the
UPS truck or other false alarms[3] made it pretty clear that in the
absence of an alert notice (ALNOT), an ELT signal was likely a
false alarm.

Plane being searched for:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001208X09049&ntsbno=LAX98FA031&akey=1

CAP plane:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001208X09197&ntsbno=LAX98GA029&akey=1


John
[1] I knew the guys that found the downed plane and the survivor.
[2] Setting the ELT off when moving the wreckage doesn't count.
[3] Many false alarms are not even actual ELT but are random
malfunctioning electronic devices (copy machines, computers,
fax machines, video games, pizza ovens)
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[RST Engineering]

I was in CG Aux in San Diego and found it to be an absolutely wonderful
experience. The members of the squadron were some of the finest and best
pilots I've ever been privileged to know. The social events were absolutely
great -- dinner at the officer's club at the local Navy base once a month,
parties on the slightest pretext, and other really good times. A minimum of
BS paperwork and a maximum of flight training and operations.

I joined CG Aux in Sacramento on the strength of my San Diego experience ...
what a mistake. Maximize the paperwork, minimize the flying, and if you
don't have a twin, you ain't in the old boy's club. A 182 is penny ante.
You got your CG bars and your CG wings in San Diego? Sorry, you get to go
through OUR little drill with reams of paperwork and busy work before we let
you in the door.

I have never been in CAP so can't comment on that.

Jim



"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> I've also noticed that we have a Coast Guard Auxiliary in town
> (Sacramento) with an active aviation unit. What is the difference to a
> pilot (in terms of training, missions, aircraft) between CG and AF aux?
>
> BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
> uniform BX privs.
>
> -Robert, CFI
>

[John T]

Trent,
My view of the CAP is colored by the fact that about the only time I see
them is the cadets at OSH. Marching in formation, harness's loaded down
with loads of crap (200' of rope, I'd swear), etc. I can't help cracking
a smile or giving a chuckle when I see a bunch of them marching by.
OTOH, they do act like perfect normal teenagers/young people when they
are not on duty. :)
Someday, I'd like to ride along when they track down errant ELT's on the
ground. I watched them as they homed in on a piper that must have had
one on.

John

[RomeoMike]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
> at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions. There are
> lots and lots and lots of training courses and certifications you much
> receive first.

>
> BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
> uniform BX privs.
>
> -Robert, CFI
>

Do you mean PX instead of BX?
I get the impression that different CAP chapters (or whatever they are
called) vary greatly. A few years ago I went to a gathering of the local
group that was advertised in the paper as a "get to know the local CAP"
function. I expressed some interest, even commented that the various
training classes would be interesting and understood that a lot of steps
needed completion before I'd fly. Despite having more actual flying
experience than most of the members there, it became obvious that they
weren't interested in more pilots potentially taking away from their
flying fun. Another pilot got the same vibes. The group seemed more
interested in promoting their cadet program and strutting around in
their uniforms. I'm glad that other groups are not the same.

[Mike Weller]

On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:28:28 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

snip...

>I have never been in CAP so can't comment on that.
>
>Jim
>

I was in the CAP many years ago. It was great. I flew their L-16 for
practically nothing. Even nothing on missions.

A couple of years ago I went to some meetings and was ready to
re-join.

The people are still great, but I just couldn't stand the paperwork.
That is a shame, and it's nothing I can change.

What's even worse is that I don't agree with the way they fly their
airplanes. I cringe when I have a student in the pattern and have to
fit in with their 172s. They fly patterns that would make a 747 look
like it was flying an especially conservative pattern. Maybe that's
just their style, with 4 hour pre-flights and such, but I just don't
get it.

Mike Weller

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

RomeoMike wrote:
>> BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
>> uniform BX privs.
>
> Do you mean PX instead of BX?


The Air Force has base exchanges; the Army and Marine Corps have post exchanges.
And the Navy has ship's stores (I think). I'm positive about the first three;
I've shopped in all of them at one time or another.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Hotel 179]

--
Stephen F. Pearce
Foley, Alabama


"Mike Weller" > wrote in message
news:1122997664.699c6cb9246926082a94cd907424bb2e@o nlynews...
> On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:28:28 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> > wrote:
>
> snip...
>
>>I have never been in CAP so can't comment on that.
>>
>>Jim
>>
>
> I was in the CAP many years ago. It was great. I flew their L-16 for
> practically nothing. Even nothing on missions.
>
> A couple of years ago I went to some meetings and was ready to
> re-join.
>
> The people are still great, but I just couldn't stand the paperwork.
> That is a shame, and it's nothing I can change.
>
> What's even worse is that I don't agree with the way they fly their
> airplanes. I cringe when I have a student in the pattern and have to
> fit in with their 172s. They fly patterns that would make a 747 look
> like it was flying an especially conservative pattern. Maybe that's
> just their style, with 4 hour pre-flights and such, but I just don't
> get it.
>
> Mike Weller
-------------------------------------------reply------------------------------------------------------------

Mike,

Four hour pre-flights and wide patterns are not the norm for the CAP. There
are some members that fly the way they do because that's the way they fly,
but it is not a "CAP" way. There's nothing in the CAP training that
suggests anything other than safety in what you are doing. For example:
extended flights between 500 and 1000 feet should be carefully planned.
(Anyone see any problem with that?). Night-time electronic searches are
performed at a minimum altitude of 2000 agl. (You are watching a dial and
listening...why fly low?). A careful preflight is suggested if you are
assigned to an aircraft that you don't normally fly. (Good to know where
those pesky landing lights are).

The paperwork to fly a currency hop is simple....sign your name and jot down
the hobbs/tach times. When you get home, jot down the times. Most of the
"paperwork" is done on computer these days.

The uniform wear gets a little annoying when the wannabees parade around
with a chest-full of ribbons looking like a Panamanian Dictator, but that
tradition comes from a culture of look at me compensation. There are
several variations on the uniform...and you don't have to wear nomex. There
are some summer weight flight suits and golf shirts.

As with any organization, it will depend on where you are and who the
players are.

Semper vi.,

Stephen
Foley, Alabama
AL112 CAP

[RomeoMike]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> RomeoMike wrote:
>
>>>BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
>>>uniform BX privs.
>>
>>Do you mean PX instead of BX?
>
>
>
> The Air Force has base exchanges; the Army and Marine Corps have post exchanges.
> And the Navy has ship's stores (I think). I'm positive about the first three;
> I've shopped in all of them at one time or another.
>
>
Mea culpa, I was an army brat.

[Robert M. Gary]

In the Navy we just called it "the exchange". Ship's stores are only at
sea. We called the grocery store the commissary, not sure what the rest
of the world called the grocery store.

-Robert

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> In the Navy we just called it "the exchange". Ship's stores are only at
> sea. We called the grocery store the commissary, not sure what the rest
> of the world called the grocery store.


Everybody called it the commissary no matter what service they were in.

I don't have much experience with the Navy; my dad was in the USAF for 26 years
and I was raised on Air Force bases. Now he's retired and lives about 20 miles
from Camp Lejeune, so I've been in their PX and commissary on occasion. I also
used to shop the PX at Ft. Bragg until I got too old to have a dependent's ID
card. So now I just get in where and when I'm with my dad.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Robert M. Gary]

Well the CG Aux never responded to my email so I guess they aren't that
interested in new volunteers. I'm doing fine with CAP. It's quiet a
large elephant to take in all at once though. I can see why some people
find it discouraging.

-Robert



Robert M. Gary wrote:
> I'm still pretty new in CAP. One thing I've realized is that it takes
> at least a year or two before you can actually fly missions. There are
> lots and lots and lots of training courses and certifications you much
> receive first.
> I've also noticed that we have a Coast Guard Auxiliary in town
> (Sacramento) with an active aviation unit. What is the difference to a
> pilot (in terms of training, missions, aircraft) between CG and AF aux?
>
> BTW: I heard rumor that CG aux get full BX priv's while CAP only get
> uniform BX privs.
>
> -Robert, CFI