Give your opinion about this story!!!

[Amir]

On 22 October 1980 two F-4D from the 71st Tactical Fighter Wing (TAB 7,
Shiraz) as usual in very low altitude on their way to attack a large
Iraqi Air Base at Habbaniyah, some 120 kilometers due west from
Baghdad. As they flew into the SAM defense of the Iraqi capital, Sadly
one Phantom was shot down by an Iraqi SA-6 surface-to-air missile and
crew was captured. While the other F-4 out maneuvered the second
missile by making an 11 G turn. Mean while trying to jam the enemy
radar emissions with its ALQ-109 jammer pod. The crew soon realized
that it was impossible to continue the attack and turned towards the
secondary target at Al-Bakr oil refinery.
After the successful attack, the F-4D turned toward the border, with
two Iraqi MiG-23MS in hot pursuit. The Iranian pilot jettisoned it's
empty drop tanks and blasted on high speed at very low altitude going
back with Iraqi's behind him firing couple of R-13 (NATO code AA-2
Atoll) missiles. All could be evaded, however, some 70 kilometers from
the border the Phantom crew realized that they spent to much fuel, and
they could not even reach the border any longer. Thus, they declared an
emergency and prepared to eject because they had no other alternative.
At this time the supporting Boeing 707 tanker and two F-14A Tomcats
that had waited behind the border did cross into Iraq to provide fuel.
At the time of contact between the F-4D and Boeing 707 there were only
700lb. fuel left in the tanks of the Phantom. Although the whole
refueling operation was undertaken in medium altitude and Iraqi radar
had full picture of what was going on not even one Iraqi interceptor
dare come close.
submitted by Iranian F-4 pilot

[Joe Delphi]

"Amir" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On 22 October 1980 two F-4D from the 71st Tactical Fighter Wing.....

> submitted by Iranian F-4 pilot
>

Sounds like B.S. to me. Why not take him out when he is most vulnerable and
get the tanker aircraft at the same time?

Also, an 11G turn without blacking out? With a jammer pod attached?

Hmm......


JD

[Ed Rasimus]

On 1 Aug 2005 00:36:03 -0700, "Amir" > wrote:

>On 22 October 1980 two F-4D from the 71st Tactical Fighter Wing (TAB 7,
>Shiraz) as usual in very low altitude on their way to attack a large
>Iraqi Air Base at Habbaniyah, some 120 kilometers due west from
>Baghdad. As they flew into the SAM defense of the Iraqi capital, Sadly
>one Phantom was shot down by an Iraqi SA-6 surface-to-air missile and
>crew was captured. While the other F-4 out maneuvered the second
>missile by making an 11 G turn. Mean while trying to jam the enemy
>radar emissions with its ALQ-109 jammer pod.

Well, since you asked for opinions---

1.) If the target was 120 kilometers from the capital, why were they
in SA-6 range from Baghdad SAMs? Were they 100 kilometers off course?

2.) How did they know they pulled 11G? The g-meter doesn't go that
high.

3.) Was the ALQ-109 an Iranian invention? Do you mean the ALQ-119?

4.) Did they not know that once you are in end-game doing evasive
maneuvers you are long past the point where an ECM pod does anything
for you.

5.) Was there no pre-mission planning, analysis of defenses, SEAD
support?


> The crew soon realized
>that it was impossible to continue the attack and turned towards the
>secondary target at Al-Bakr oil refinery.

If the target was 120k from Baghdad and they were inside the Baghdad
SAM defenses how were they going to find a different target with a
single F-4? And, what would be the Pk of a single, now-overstressed
F-4 against an oil refinery?

>After the successful attack, the F-4D turned toward the border, with
>two Iraqi MiG-23MS in hot pursuit.

How did the singleton F-4D know that they were -23MS? Without a
wingman and having just been engaged in a divert to a secondary
target, how did he spot both aircraft and make a specific target ID?

>The Iranian pilot jettisoned it's
>empty drop tanks

Why did he still have tanks at that point? Wouldn't he have blown the
tanks with the first SA-6 engagement? Or, maybe when he had to divert
to a secondary target? Would he know that the tanks would separate
after an 11G overstress?


>and blasted on high speed at very low altitude going
>back with Iraqi's behind him firing couple of R-13 (NATO code AA-2
>Atoll) missiles.

Nothing smarter than blowing along at high speed tail-on to a pair of
IR missiles.

> All could be evaded, however, some 70 kilometers from
>the border the Phantom crew realized that they spent to much fuel, and
>they could not even reach the border any longer. Thus, they declared an
>emergency and prepared to eject because they had no other alternative.
>At this time the supporting Boeing 707 tanker and two F-14A Tomcats
>that had waited behind the border did cross into Iraq to provide fuel.

Well, duh! Did the F-4 driver have a pre-planned "bingo"? Why was the
supporting tanker not in a position to support? What were the Toms
doing on the tankers wing while the singleton strike "package" is
engaged with pursuing interceptors? And, with look-down, shoot-down
capability, why aren't the Toms chasing the MiG-23MS pair back where
they came from? Does no one have a radio?

>At the time of contact between the F-4D and Boeing 707 there were only
>700lb. fuel left in the tanks of the Phantom. Although the whole
>refueling operation was undertaken in medium altitude and Iraqi radar
>had full picture of what was going on not even one Iraqi interceptor
>dare come close.

They were probably doubled over with laughter.

> submitted by Iranian F-4 pilot

Submitted by USAF F-4 pilot and Wild Weasel #2488.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

[[email protected]]

Just what base did the two F4Ds start from? Shiraz, on my atlas, is
about 590 statute miles from Al-Ramadi, which is by coincidence about
120 kilometers west of Baghdad. And that 590 mile RTB makes Shiraz a
long ways away for a post-strike recovery base. No wonder he got short
on fuel; he was short when he took off. I'm not saying it couldn't be
done, but it'd take tanking on both legs and both ARIPs would be
dangerously close to Iraq. Pretty shaky, I'd say. But what do I know -
I've only got 2k hours in the F4.
Walt BJ

[FatKat]

Amir wrote:
> On 22 October 1980 two F-4D from the 71st Tactical Fighter Wing (TAB 7,
> Shiraz) as usual in very low altitude on their way to attack a large
> Iraqi Air Base at Habbaniyah, some 120 kilometers due west from
> Baghdad. As they flew into the SAM defense of the Iraqi capital, Sadly
> one Phantom was shot down by an Iraqi SA-6 surface-to-air missile and
> crew was captured.

Lots more detail than in his other posts. Hmmmm
Also, would Iranian jets commit to flying single-ship missions that
early in the war? I know that the Phantom drivers were reputed as
experts, but a single ship seems a bit light - and lacking the support
you get from a section.

> While the other F-4 out maneuvered the second missile by making an 11 G
> turn.

11g's - with full stores?

> Mean while trying to jam the enemy radar emissions with its ALQ-109
> jammer pod. The crew soon realized that it was impossible to continue
> the attack and turned towards the secondary target at Al-Bakr oil
> refinery.

Were the combatants of the PGW-I hitting each other's petro-industrial
assets that soon? I always thought that there was a short interval,
eventually broken of course, in which they focused on other targets
like factories unrelated to oil production, and power stations.

> After the successful attack, the F-4D turned toward the border, with
> two Iraqi MiG-23MS in hot pursuit. The Iranian pilot jettisoned it's
> empty drop tanks and blasted on high speed at very low altitude going
> back with Iraqi's behind him firing couple of R-13 (NATO code AA-2
> Atoll) missiles. All could be evaded,

So these Phantoms are not only zooming for the border at top speed and
at bottom altitude, but they're maneuvering as well?

> however, some 70 kilometers from
> the border the Phantom crew realized that they spent to much fuel, and
> they could not even reach the border any longer. Thus, they declared an
> emergency and prepared to eject because they had no other alternative.
> At this time the supporting Boeing 707 tanker and two F-14A Tomcats
> that had waited behind the border did cross into Iraq to provide fuel.
> At the time of contact between the F-4D and Boeing 707 there were only
> 700lb. fuel left in the tanks of the Phantom. Although the whole
> refueling operation was undertaken in medium altitude and Iraqi radar
> had full picture of what was going on not even one Iraqi interceptor
> dare come close.

Was the fear of the F-14 so firmly established that 1) Iraqi pilots
knew to avoid them whenever they crossed into Iraqi AS? and 2)Iranian
pilots of large and non-maneuvering tankers could rely on that fear to
bring their large and valuable aircraft into enemy airspace?