light planes collide over Seattle?

[tony roberts]

Just saw an ad for Kiro News 4 at 11:00
It showed 2 light planes that had collided - looked bad.

Anyone know anything?

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Jay Honeck]

> It showed 2 light planes that had collided - looked bad.
>
> Anyone know anything?

See http://www.kirotv.com/index.html for links to pix.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[W P Dixon]

heard on Fox that the float plane made it and landed safely(no fatalities),
the other plane all on board lost.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:w_AIe.224964$_o.128167@attbi_s71...
>> It showed 2 light planes that had collided - looked bad.
>>
>> Anyone know anything?
>
> See http://www.kirotv.com/index.html for links to pix.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Flyingmonk]

Woah! That's sad...

Bryan "The monk" Chaisone

[Bob Gardner]

It was over Renton, not Seattle...in the pattern, east of the airport.
Cessna 150 pilot, apparently with the sun in his eyes, hit the floats of a
float plane on downwind and knocked them about 30 degrees out of alignment.
150 went straight into an empty school; float plane pilot, a very
experienced flight instructor and 135 pilot, opted against a water landing
and put it on the grass. Anyone who has driven/flown into the sun knows that
"unlimited visibility" shrinks down to zero under those conditions.

Tower-controlled airport, BTW. A contract tower, not an FAA tower.

Bob Gardner

"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-215439.20152404082005@shawnews...
> Just saw an ad for Kiro News 4 at 11:00
> It showed 2 light planes that had collided - looked bad.
>
> Anyone know anything?
>
> Tony
>
> --
>
> Tony Roberts
> PP-ASEL
> VFR OTT
> Night
> Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Andrew Gideon]

Bob Gardner wrote:

> 150 went straight into an empty school

That's going to cost us.

> Anyone who has driven/flown into the sun
> knows that "unlimited visibility" shrinks down to zero under those
> conditions.
>
> Tower-controlled airport, BTW. A contract tower, not an FAA tower.

I hear complaints about the tower at my "home" airport, and I've made a few
of them myself. But I seem to recall once when they shifted the active to
permit us to avoid that problem as much as possible.

- Andrew

[Dan Foster]

In article >, Bob Gardner > wrote:
>
> Tower-controlled airport, BTW. A contract tower, not an FAA tower.

I have to ask, just out of curiosity... does that make any particular
difference or is of any noteworthy mention, other than what agency
directly signs the employees' paychecks?

-Dan

[[email protected]]

Oh, Boy and this is rainy Seattle. Makes the M..gs closure look sounder
every day.
Uncle Bobby RIP.

And that was SPLAT into a SCHOOL BUILDING.

Polarized sunglasses anyone?

JG

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> See http://www.kirotv.com/index.html for links to pix.

Well, that reporter seems to know his or her stuff.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Bob Gardner]

Oh yeah. We had 0.7 inches of rain in July, and none since the first of
August...the next week or ten days are forecast to be dry, too.

Bob Gardner

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Oh, Boy and this is rainy Seattle. Makes the M..gs closure look sounder
> every day.
> Uncle Bobby RIP.
>
> And that was SPLAT into a SCHOOL BUILDING.
>
> Polarized sunglasses anyone?
>
> JG
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
>> 150 went straight into an empty school
>
> That's going to cost us.

Possibly. Especially when the evening news is putting up an aerial photo
and pointing out all the stuff in the photo that the 150 "narrowly missed".
Of course, they failed to point out that each object they circled was a very
tiny target in a vast area of non-targets. Even in a relatively congested
area where this accident happened, the odds of the 150 hitting a person were
remarkably small.

This was on the KIRO evening news, by the way. George commented that "that
reporter seems to know his or her stuff". Since he didn't refer to a
specific article, I don't know which reporter he's referring to; probably
Rick Price though, and yes...he's their "aviation correspondent" and does
have an above-average knowledge of things related to aviation.

But that doesn't stop the rest of their crew from stupid reporting. And
yes, I blame (at least in part) stupid reporting for some of general
aviation's woes.

Pete

[Bob Gardner]

I would guess that an FAA-employed controller would be in a better position
to answer that question than I am. I do know that ground operations at
Renton differ from what almost all student pilots are taught about
operations at a controlled airport.

Bob Gardner

"Dan Foster" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Bob Gardner
> > wrote:
>>
>> Tower-controlled airport, BTW. A contract tower, not an FAA tower.
>
> I have to ask, just out of curiosity... does that make any particular
> difference or is of any noteworthy mention, other than what agency
> directly signs the employees' paychecks?
>
> -Dan

[Newps]

Bob Gardner wrote:
> I would guess that an FAA-employed controller would be in a better position
> to answer that question than I am.


Makes no difference whatsoever.

[George Patterson]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> George commented that "that
> reporter seems to know his or her stuff".

Sorry. I meant this one.
http://www.kirotv.com/news/4813756/detail.html

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Seth Masia]

The AP report is very sensible.

This accident reminds me of last week's thread about spotting floatplanes
over Lake Sammamish. In this case the Cessna was in the pattern for Renton
and looking into the sun -- but the Beaver was in a separate pattern for
Wiley Post, the seaplane base off the north end of the Renton runway. Both
of these guys should have been talking to the tower and the tower should
have been watching out for both of them.

Seth
N8100R


"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> Oh yeah. We had 0.7 inches of rain in July, and none since the first of
> August...the next week or ten days are forecast to be dry, too.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Oh, Boy and this is rainy Seattle. Makes the M..gs closure look sounder
>> every day.
>> Uncle Bobby RIP.
>>
>> And that was SPLAT into a SCHOOL BUILDING.
>>
>> Polarized sunglasses anyone?
>>
>> JG
>>
>
>

[George Patterson]

Seth Masia wrote:
>
> This accident reminds me of last week's thread about spotting floatplanes
> over Lake Sammamish. In this case the Cessna was in the pattern for Renton
> and looking into the sun -- but the Beaver was in a separate pattern for
> Wiley Post, the seaplane base off the north end of the Renton runway. Both
> of these guys should have been talking to the tower and the tower should
> have been watching out for both of them.

According to the TV link posted, both aircraft were talking to the tower.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Thomas Borchert]

> Makes the M..gs closure look sounder
> every day.
>

How? Why? Wait, don't bother.

Oh, and tell me again how many people in the school were hurt.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jose]

> I do know that ground operations at
> Renton differ from what almost all student pilots are taught about
> operations at a controlled airport.

How so? I'm going to Renton in September.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:DcOIe.22$lT.15@trndny05...
> Sorry. I meant this one.
> http://www.kirotv.com/news/4813756/detail.html

Hmmm...well, the only KIRO reported identified by name is indeed Rick Price.
If it was his comments to which you referred, I'd have to agree. :)

[Peter Duniho]

"Seth Masia" > wrote in message
...
> The AP report is very sensible.
>
> This accident reminds me of last week's thread about spotting floatplanes
> over Lake Sammamish.

Was it that recent? Wow...time flies. :)

> In this case the Cessna was in the pattern for Renton and looking into the
> sun -- but the Beaver was in a separate pattern for Wiley Post, the
> seaplane base off the north end of the Renton runway.

For what it's worth, IMHO this was much more like a "multiple planes at a
point of congestion" (a towered airport, in this case) than it is like the
previous thread about planes around Lake Sammamish.

The towered airport specifically attracts planes to the same spot (even one
like Renton where there are two landing surfaces), while in the case of
operations over an urban lake like Sammamish, landplane traffic really ought
to be above 1000' above the lake (especially when the lake itself is
bordered by developed hills of 200-300'), while the seaplane traffic
operating at the lake is likely to be 1000' or below. And of course, over
an urban lake there is not nearly the same kind of predefined pattern that
would attract to airplanes specifically to the same spot as one would find
at an airport.

> Both of these guys should have been talking to the tower and the tower
> should have been watching out for both of them.

Both of those guys were talking to the tower (according to the news report),
and yes the tower should have been helping them avoid each other, but the
tower's primary responsibility is to control use of the runway, not the air
around the runway.

It sounds as though the sun might have been a factor, but I also wonder
whether either pilot had been paying attention to radio transmissions to or
from the other aircraft, for the purpose of developing a good sense of
awareness of other traffic in the vicinity. And of course, the sun should
only have been a factor for one of the pilots at most.

That said, reports as to what exactly happened are still conflicting. The
evening news was reporting that the 150 was flying perpendicular to the
flight path of the floatplane, while the web site's article appears to be
saying that the flight paths were nearly parallel, in the same direction.
It probably will be months (or a year) before the NTSB report comes out and
gives us anything close to accurate information as to what actually
happened.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> I do know that ground operations at Renton differ from what almost all
>> student pilots are taught about operations at a controlled airport.
>
> How so? I'm going to Renton in September.

Huh. I thought I'd posted a post with this information. Maybe I decided
not to, 'cause I don't see it.

Anyway, at Renton only the runway is controlled. The entire remainder of
the airport is a "non-movement area", which means you can move freely about
without any advice or instruction from ATC. It's essentially a non-towered
airport, until you get to the runway.

Though, I thought they put that information in the A/FD and it doesn't
appear to be there now. Probably want to double-check with the tower after
landing, before you go taxiing across the airport without a ground control
clearance. :)

Pete

[ORVAL FAIRAIRN]

In article om>,
wet his bed, grabbed an ear of corn and oinked:

> Oh, Boy and this is rainy Seattle. Makes the M..gs closure look sounder
> every day.
> Uncle Bobby RIP.
>
> And that was SPLAT into a SCHOOL BUILDING.
>
> Polarized sunglasses anyone?


Go to hell, "jgrove"! You are acting like a ghoul and jumping with glee
over someone's death.

No -- it DOESN'T make the Meigs closure look sounder, as that action
concentrates, rather than disperses traffic.

[john smith]

Seth Masia wrote:
> Both of these guys should have been talking to the tower and the tower should
> have been watching out for both of them.

My guess is, some attorney will say the exact same thing!

[Skywise]

wrote in news:1123261687.096684.52900
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

<Snipola>
> Polarized sunglasses anyone?

Put on a pair of polarized glasses and stare at the sun,
then tell us how much you can see.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Blog: http://www.skywise711.com/Blog

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Bob Gardner]

There is no separate pattern, and as far as I know no one who operates in
and out of Renton considers the seaplane base to be separate in any way from
the airport. The Beaver was on downwind for runway 33, intending (according
to news reports) to fly down the runway to the north end and then land in
the water. This is a fairly typical float plane operation at Renton. If you
are suggesting that he should have made a pattern north of the runway,
between it and Mercer Island, it would appear that you know nothing about
float planes.

And, just to save some bandwidth, the school was being torn down because it
contained asbestos...that fact is complicating the examination of the 150's
wreckage because he NTSB folks have to suit up to avoid breathing asbestos
dust.

Bob Gardner

"Seth Masia" > wrote in message
...
> The AP report is very sensible.
>
> This accident reminds me of last week's thread about spotting floatplanes
> over Lake Sammamish. In this case the Cessna was in the pattern for Renton
> and looking into the sun -- but the Beaver was in a separate pattern for
> Wiley Post, the seaplane base off the north end of the Renton runway.
> Both of these guys should have been talking to the tower and the tower
> should have been watching out for both of them.
>
> Seth
> N8100R
>
>
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Oh yeah. We had 0.7 inches of rain in July, and none since the first of
>> August...the next week or ten days are forecast to be dry, too.
>>
>> Bob Gardner
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> Oh, Boy and this is rainy Seattle. Makes the M..gs closure look sounder
>>> every day.
>>> Uncle Bobby RIP.
>>>
>>> And that was SPLAT into a SCHOOL BUILDING.
>>>
>>> Polarized sunglasses anyone?
>>>
>>> JG
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Seth Masia]

Well, actually, I got my floatplane rating at Renton, and we often flew an
entirely separate pattern out over the lake, typically approaching overwater
from the north and turning an appropriate downwind at some altitude below
the Renton traffic pattern.

That was a dozen years ago; maybe practices have changed there.

Seth
N8100R


"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> There is no separate pattern, and as far as I know no one who operates in
> and out of Renton considers the seaplane base to be separate in any way
> from the airport. The Beaver was on downwind for runway 33, intending
> (according to news reports) to fly down the runway to the north end and
> then land in the water. This is a fairly typical float plane operation at
> Renton. If you are suggesting that he should have made a pattern north of
> the runway, between it and Mercer Island, it would appear that you know
> nothing about float planes.
>
> And, just to save some bandwidth, the school was being torn down because
> it contained asbestos...that fact is complicating the examination of the
> 150's wreckage because he NTSB folks have to suit up to avoid breathing
> asbestos dust.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Seth Masia" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The AP report is very sensible.
>>
>> This accident reminds me of last week's thread about spotting floatplanes
>> over Lake Sammamish. In this case the Cessna was in the pattern for
>> Renton and looking into the sun -- but the Beaver was in a separate
>> pattern for Wiley Post, the seaplane base off the north end of the Renton
>> runway. Both of these guys should have been talking to the tower and the
>> tower should have been watching out for both of them.
>>
>> Seth
>> N8100R
>>
>>
>> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Oh yeah. We had 0.7 inches of rain in July, and none since the first of
>>> August...the next week or ten days are forecast to be dry, too.
>>>
>>> Bob Gardner
>>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ups.com...
>>>> Oh, Boy and this is rainy Seattle. Makes the M..gs closure look sounder
>>>> every day.
>>>> Uncle Bobby RIP.
>>>>
>>>> And that was SPLAT into a SCHOOL BUILDING.
>>>>
>>>> Polarized sunglasses anyone?
>>>>
>>>> JG
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Seth Masia]

Second try: A dozen years ago I got my floatplane rating at Renton, with
Sound Flight. When approaching from any direction but south, we typically
flew a separate pattern out over the lake, below the Renton traffic
pattern -- especially when the wind was strong. Safest way to land a
floatplane, of course, is dead into the wind, so the pattern rarely conforms
to the runway box. Maybe procedures have changed since then.

And let's hear a round of applause for the Beaver pilot, who put it down
safely on the grass in spite of having his floats apparently distorted about
30 degrees off center.

I've encountered ad hominem attacks on other newsgroups and they invariably
poison the utility of the information exchange.

Seth
N8100R

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> There is no separate pattern, and as far as I know no one who operates in
> and out of Renton considers the seaplane base to be separate in any way
> from the airport. The Beaver was on downwind for runway 33, intending
> (according to news reports) to fly down the runway to the north end and
> then land in the water. This is a fairly typical float plane operation at
> Renton. If you are suggesting that he should have made a pattern north of
> the runway, between it and Mercer Island, it would appear that you know
> nothing about float planes.
>
> And, just to save some bandwidth, the school was being torn down because
> it contained asbestos...that fact is complicating the examination of the
> 150's wreckage because he NTSB folks have to suit up to avoid breathing
> asbestos dust.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Seth Masia" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The AP report is very sensible.
>>
>> This accident reminds me of last week's thread about spotting floatplanes
>> over Lake Sammamish. In this case the Cessna was in the pattern for
>> Renton and looking into the sun -- but the Beaver was in a separate
>> pattern for Wiley Post, the seaplane base off the north end of the Renton
>> runway. Both of these guys should have been talking to the tower and the
>> tower should have been watching out for both of them.
>>
>> Seth
>> N8100R
>>
>>
>> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Oh yeah. We had 0.7 inches of rain in July, and none since the first of
>>> August...the next week or ten days are forecast to be dry, too.
>>>
>>> Bob Gardner
>>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ups.com...
>>>> Oh, Boy and this is rainy Seattle. Makes the M..gs closure look sounder
>>>> every day.
>>>> Uncle Bobby RIP.
>>>>
>>>> And that was SPLAT into a SCHOOL BUILDING.
>>>>
>>>> Polarized sunglasses anyone?
>>>>
>>>> JG
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Bob Gardner]

Full disclosure...I got my float rating at Kenmore, after doing some
training in Lake Union (and Juneau, but that's another story). Never used
Renton for a water landing even once. You are 100 percent correct in noting
that the seaplane base has a separate pattern, west of the final for Renton,
and I deserve the blowhard award of the year for saying otherwise. However,
note that on the sectional, the RTN Class D encompasses the seaplane base.

Fred Bahr has been flying for 45 years, mostly in this area, and is very
active in instructor safety meetings. If he wants to overfly the pavement on
his way to the water, that's fine with me...I have observed many other float
plane pilots doing the same thing.

Bob Gardner

"Seth Masia" > wrote in message
...
> Well, actually, I got my floatplane rating at Renton, and we often flew an
> entirely separate pattern out over the lake, typically approaching
> overwater from the north and turning an appropriate downwind at some
> altitude below the Renton traffic pattern.
>
> That was a dozen years ago; maybe practices have changed there.
>
> Seth
> N8100R
>
>
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
> ...
>> There is no separate pattern, and as far as I know no one who operates in
>> and out of Renton considers the seaplane base to be separate in any way
>> from the airport. The Beaver was on downwind for runway 33, intending
>> (according to news reports) to fly down the runway to the north end and
>> then land in the water. This is a fairly typical float plane operation at
>> Renton. If you are suggesting that he should have made a pattern north of
>> the runway, between it and Mercer Island, it would appear that you know
>> nothing about float planes.
>>
>> And, just to save some bandwidth, the school was being torn down because
>> it contained asbestos...that fact is complicating the examination of the
>> 150's wreckage because he NTSB folks have to suit up to avoid breathing
>> asbestos dust.
>>
>> Bob Gardner
>>
>> "Seth Masia" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> The AP report is very sensible.
>>>
>>> This accident reminds me of last week's thread about spotting
>>> floatplanes over Lake Sammamish. In this case the Cessna was in the
>>> pattern for Renton and looking into the sun -- but the Beaver was in a
>>> separate pattern for Wiley Post, the seaplane base off the north end of
>>> the Renton runway. Both of these guys should have been talking to the
>>> tower and the tower should have been watching out for both of them.
>>>
>>> Seth
>>> N8100R
>>>
>>>
>>> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Oh yeah. We had 0.7 inches of rain in July, and none since the first of
>>>> August...the next week or ten days are forecast to be dry, too.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Gardner
>>>>
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>> ups.com...
>>>>> Oh, Boy and this is rainy Seattle. Makes the M..gs closure look
>>>>> sounder
>>>>> every day.
>>>>> Uncle Bobby RIP.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that was SPLAT into a SCHOOL BUILDING.
>>>>>
>>>>> Polarized sunglasses anyone?
>>>>>
>>>>> JG
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Morgans]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote
>
> That's going to cost us.

The school was empty, and was undergoing asbestos abatement. It was stated
for demolition.
--
Jim in NC

[Sylvain]

Morgans wrote:
> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote
>>That's going to cost us.
> The school was empty, and was undergoing asbestos abatement. It was stated
> for demolition.

do you really think journalists will bother to check that out,
or even if they did, to report it? which is going to sell
more paper? 'little plane crashes into derelict/unoccupied
building' or 'little plane crashes into *school*' ?

--Sylvain

[Morgans]

"Sylvain" > wrote
>
> do you really think journalists will bother to check that out,
> or even if they did, to report it? which is going to sell
> more paper? 'little plane crashes into derelict/unoccupied
> building' or 'little plane crashes into *school*' ?

I see you haven't changed.

*Plonk*
--
Jim in NC

[George Patterson]

Seth Masia wrote:
>
> And let's hear a round of applause for the Beaver pilot, who put it down
> safely on the grass in spite of having his floats apparently distorted about
> 30 degrees off center.

Yeah! (clap, clap, clap)

I looked at those floats and thought it was a miracle he didn't dig the tip of
one in. I guess he hung it on the prop and "three-pointed" it.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Peter Duniho > posted:
>
> That said, reports as to what exactly happened are still conflicting.
> The evening news was reporting that the 150 was flying perpendicular
> to the flight path of the floatplane, while the web site's article
> appears to be saying that the flight paths were nearly parallel, in
> the same direction.
>
This aspect of the report confuses me, as well. If the aircraft were on
"nearly parallel" flight paths, how could the sun be much of a factor? One
of them should have seen the other with a normal scan to their sides. I
don't get it.

Neil

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> Oh, Boy and this is rainy Seattle. Makes the M..gs closure look sounder
> every day.
> Uncle Bobby RIP.

For the curious, Uncle Bobby Collins was a local radio host who was
similiarly clipped, and
some wreckage hit a HOSPITAL in Lake County IL.

JG

>
> And that was SPLAT into a SCHOOL BUILDING.
>
> Polarized sunglasses anyone?
>
> JG

[Flyingmonk]

Hey George! Sorry, Hi George.

Maybe the floats were damaged, but remained in corrrect
position/alignment until the weight was applied on touchdown and it
gave way?

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Peter Duniho]

"Neil Gould" > wrote in message
. ..
> This aspect of the report confuses me, as well. If the aircraft were on
> "nearly parallel" flight paths, how could the sun be much of a factor?

No one has said that the sun *was* a factor. There simply have been people
who have suggested that it *might* have been a factor.

As is often the case, many statements have been made about the accident, not
all of which can be true at the same time. Which ones are true and which
ones are not will be known in due time, and likely not in the near future.

I would agree that the "sun in the pilot's eyes" and the "parallel flight
courses" possibilities are mutually exclusive, assuming that the parallel
flights were in the same direction. If they were on a head-on course (and I
haven't heard any suggestion that they were), the sun and visibility
generally could have been a factor.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Maybe the floats were damaged, but remained in corrrect
> position/alignment until the weight was applied on touchdown and it
> gave way?

The report I saw said that the floatplane pilot noted the floats at an angle
before touchdown.

As far as the "hung it on a prop and 'three-pointed' it" goes...witness
accounts say that the floatplane bounced several times before coming to a
rest. It sounds to me like a classic example of the pilot continuing to fly
the airplane until it came to a stop, no matter what happened. This is, of
course, the text-book example of what one SHOULD do when landing, in an
emergency or otherwise. :)

I think it likely that the successful landing had less to do with a
particular choice of technique, and more to do with a pilot who kept his
wits about him and maintained control of the airplane as best he could, even
in an extremely difficult situation.

Pete

[Seth Masia]

Agreed. A full stall landing isn't a good idea on floats, because it means
you come down on the tail of the floats -- and this could mean pitching
sharply forward and possibly going up and over. Instead, you want to settle
at minimum sink rate on the step, regardless of whether it's water, grass,
snow, plowed field or pavement, and come to as gradual a stop as possible
using the keels as your brakes. Which is exactly what happened in this
case. Bravo.

Seth


"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Maybe the floats were damaged, but remained in corrrect
>> position/alignment until the weight was applied on touchdown and it
>> gave way?
>
> The report I saw said that the floatplane pilot noted the floats at an
> angle before touchdown.
>
> As far as the "hung it on a prop and 'three-pointed' it" goes...witness
> accounts say that the floatplane bounced several times before coming to a
> rest. It sounds to me like a classic example of the pilot continuing to
> fly the airplane until it came to a stop, no matter what happened. This
> is, of course, the text-book example of what one SHOULD do when landing,
> in an emergency or otherwise. :)
>
> I think it likely that the successful landing had less to do with a
> particular choice of technique, and more to do with a pilot who kept his
> wits about him and maintained control of the airplane as best he could,
> even in an extremely difficult situation.
>
> Pete
>

[Jose]

> Instead, you want to settle
> at minimum sink rate on the step, regardless of whether it's water, grass...

What does "on the step" mean outside of a water landing?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Seth Masia]

It means the first point of contact with the earth's surface should be the
strongest part of the keel: that is, the step. Touch down anywhere else
and you risk a flip-over. Deceleration is going to rock you forward onto
the forward keel, and you want that pitch-over to happen as slowly and
gently as possible. So if I were doing it I'd probably apply gentle
up-elevator as soon as the step made contact.

In fact this process should be a lot like a soft-field landing in a plane
with wheels.

Any float CFIs out there feel differently?

Seth


"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> Instead, you want to settle at minimum sink rate on the step, regardless
>> of whether it's water, grass...
>
> What does "on the step" mean outside of a water landing?
>
> Jose
> --
> Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
> except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
> universe.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Peter Duniho > posted:

> "Neil Gould" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> This aspect of the report confuses me, as well. If the aircraft were
>> on "nearly parallel" flight paths, how could the sun be much of a
>> factor?
>
> No one has said that the sun *was* a factor. There simply have been
> people who have suggested that it *might* have been a factor.
>
I see...

> I would agree that the "sun in the pilot's eyes" and the "parallel
> flight courses" possibilities are mutually exclusive, assuming that
> the parallel flights were in the same direction. If they were on a
> head-on course (and I haven't heard any suggestion that they were),
> the sun and visibility generally could have been a factor.
>
I thought about the head-on course as a possible explanation to cover the
"sun in the...", but it seems to me that could only have been a problem
for one of the pilots. The other would most likely have had a hard time
not noticing the shiny object hurtling toward him.

Neil

[Peter Duniho]

"Neil Gould" > wrote in message
. ..
> I thought about the head-on course as a possible explanation to cover the
> "sun in the...", but it seems to me that could only have been a problem
> for one of the pilots.

Well, as I mentioned in my previous post, "the sun should only have been a
factor for one of the pilots at most". This is true regardless of the
relative flight paths.

Pete

[George Patterson]

Seth Masia wrote:
> Agreed. A full stall landing isn't a good idea on floats, because it means
> you come down on the tail of the floats -- and this could mean pitching
> sharply forward and possibly going up and over. Instead, you want to settle
> at minimum sink rate on the step, regardless of whether it's water, grass,
> snow, plowed field or pavement, and come to as gradual a stop as possible
> using the keels as your brakes. Which is exactly what happened in this
> case. Bravo.

Have you *seen* the photos? There's no way you could bring that plane down on
the tail of the floats. The miracle is that the noses didn't dig into the grass.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Seth Masia]

No, I didn't see the photos. I'm just talking about floatplanes in
general -- stalling at low altitude is the last thing I'd want to do in a
floatplane, for exactly this reason. Do you have a link to the pix?

Seth

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:pEcJe.4152$eR.3067@trndny04...
> Seth Masia wrote:
>> Agreed. A full stall landing isn't a good idea on floats, because it
>> means you come down on the tail of the floats -- and this could mean
>> pitching sharply forward and possibly going up and over. Instead, you
>> want to settle at minimum sink rate on the step, regardless of whether
>> it's water, grass, snow, plowed field or pavement, and come to as gradual
>> a stop as possible using the keels as your brakes. Which is exactly what
>> happened in this case. Bravo.
>
> Have you *seen* the photos? There's no way you could bring that plane down
> on the tail of the floats. The miracle is that the noses didn't dig into
> the grass.
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

Seth Masia wrote:
> No, I didn't see the photos. I'm just talking about floatplanes in
> general -- stalling at low altitude is the last thing I'd want to do in a
> floatplane, for exactly this reason. Do you have a link to the pix?

Try http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0805/4812340_400X300.jpg

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.