TSIO 360 EB running lean at 12000

[Silvio Mecucci]

Hi all,
Yesterday I was flying on a Seneca II equipped with TSIO 360EB Teledyne
Continental engines.
The first flight (Dusseldorf-Milan) took 2 hours, FL 140, everything
working perfectly adn according to the manual.
The second flight (Milan-Rome) had the following inconvenience on BOTH
engines:
At FL 130 29" MAP 2400rpm the indicated fuel flow was 12 Gal/Hours
but the Mixture control lever were in the "Full Rich" position.
I could not move them to lean mixture since the fuel flow was going
down to less than 12. The speed was correct (about 170 KTAS), and the
engines were both a little bit too hot, but not that much.
I repeat it was behaving like this for BOTH engines. And this
sound strange and new to me..

I still have to fly again with the same plane, and it will be checked
by a specialist before, but, is there anybody who has an idea about
what was happening ?

Silvio

[Kyle Boatright]

Several questions:

What do you mean by hot? What were the CHT's and Oil Temperatures? What do
they normally run?

What % of full power is 29" and 2400 RPM? I realize you're flying a
turbocharged aircraft, but 24" and 2400 RPM is usually something like 75%,
so I'd guess 29" and 2400 RPM is well over 75%.

What is the recommended max cruise setting for these engines?

Am I correct in assuming these are Continental 210 hp engines?




"Silvio Mecucci" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi all,
> Yesterday I was flying on a Seneca II equipped with TSIO 360EB Teledyne
> Continental engines.
> The first flight (Dusseldorf-Milan) took 2 hours, FL 140, everything
> working perfectly adn according to the manual.
> The second flight (Milan-Rome) had the following inconvenience on BOTH
> engines:
> At FL 130 29" MAP 2400rpm the indicated fuel flow was 12 Gal/Hours
> but the Mixture control lever were in the "Full Rich" position.
> I could not move them to lean mixture since the fuel flow was going
> down to less than 12. The speed was correct (about 170 KTAS), and the
> engines were both a little bit too hot, but not that much.
> I repeat it was behaving like this for BOTH engines. And this
> sound strange and new to me..
>
> I still have to fly again with the same plane, and it will be checked
> by a specialist before, but, is there anybody who has an idea about
> what was happening ?
>
> Silvio
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
> Several questions:
>
> What do you mean by hot? What were the CHT's and Oil Temperatures? What
> do they normally run?

Good questions. The original post was certainly short on details regarding
what the pilot feels is normal versus what was actually happening.

> What % of full power is 29" and 2400 RPM? I realize you're flying a
> turbocharged aircraft, but 24" and 2400 RPM is usually something like 75%,
> so I'd guess 29" and 2400 RPM is well over 75%.

That all depends on the turbocharging. If the maximum boost is higher than
30", 29"/2400 RPM could easily be in the 75% range.

That said, as far as I know these particular engines aren't boosted very
high (but I'm almost entirely unfamiliar with them, so that doesn't mean
much :) ). But just as a reference point, the turbocharged IO-540 in my
airplane has a maximum boost of 34", with a typical "high cruise" power
setting being 29"/2300 RPM, for about 75% power.

Pete

[Scott Skylane]

Peter Duniho wrote:

/snip/
> That said, as far as I know these particular engines aren't boosted very
> high (but I'm almost entirely unfamiliar with them, so that doesn't mean
> much :) ). But just as a reference point, the turbocharged IO-540 in my
> airplane has a maximum boost of 34", with a typical "high cruise" power
> setting being 29"/2300 RPM, for about 75% power.
>
> Pete
>
>

Pete,

The TSIO-360EB is boosted to 40", quite high for a general aviation engine.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Silvio Mecucci]

Kyle Boatright ha scritto:

> Several questions:
>
> What do you mean by hot? What were the CHT's and Oil Temperatures? What=
do
> they normally run?
Maximum Oil temperatures 240=B0 F
Maximum CHT 460=B0 F

We were running about 210=B0 F for Oil and 420=B0F for CHT.

Anyway.. this was in the middle fourth quarter of the indication ranges
something like "hot".. :-)
Normally, if you operate properly with cowl flaps and mixture leaning,
they run right in the middle except during climbs or descends were they
became hotter and colder namely.

The strange was that we were not able to cool them down opening the
cowl flaps
The EGT's were at the minimum indications (like we has not leaned at
all)
but the Flow Meters were like the leaned properly.
According to the POH it should have been 23.6 Gal / hour which means
about 12
for each engine like I was reading.
Just the left engines was overhauled while the right has still 600
hours.
They were behaving exactly the same way..
It can't be the same kind of inconvenience to both engines, oil, cht,
egt indicators and mixture levers....

Could it have something to do with the fuel we put during the second
flight ?


> What % of full power is 29" and 2400 RPM? I realize you're flying a
> turbocharged aircraft, but 24" and 2400 RPM is usually something like 75%,
> so I'd guess 29" and 2400 RPM is well over 75%.

Well not.. TSIO 360EB can run up to 40" as maximum continuos power if
you are able to cool the engine properly (i.e. during a descend from a
level higher than the single engine ceiling)

According to the POH of the Seneca II this setting is 75% of power
which is
also the reccomended setting for the first 25 hours after a major
overhaul like the one undergone by my left engine.



> What is the recommended max cruise setting for these engines?
75%

> Am I correct in assuming these are Continental 210 hp engines?
They are Continental engines rated for 200hp at sea level
and 215hp at 12,000ft
>
>
>
> "Silvio Mecucci" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Hi all,
> > Yesterday I was flying on a Seneca II equipped with TSIO 360EB Teledyne
> > Continental engines.
> > The first flight (Dusseldorf-Milan) took 2 hours, FL 140, everything
> > working perfectly adn according to the manual.
> > The second flight (Milan-Rome) had the following inconvenience on BOTH
> > engines:
> > At FL 130 29" MAP 2400rpm the indicated fuel flow was 12 Gal/Hours
> > but the Mixture control lever were in the "Full Rich" position.
> > I could not move them to lean mixture since the fuel flow was going
> > down to less than 12. The speed was correct (about 170 KTAS), and the
> > engines were both a little bit too hot, but not that much.
> > I repeat it was behaving like this for BOTH engines. And this
> > sound strange and new to me..
> >
> > I still have to fly again with the same plane, and it will be checked
> > by a specialist before, but, is there anybody who has an idea about
> > what was happening ?
> >
> > Silvio
> >

[Silvio Mecucci]

>Good questions. The original post was certainly short on details regarding
>what the pilot feels is normal versus what was actually happening
I agree with you.
I put some more details in the other reply.
Also.. usually on GA cheap aircrafts, engine instruments are not that
good in
reliability unless hey are new or well mantained.
I bought this airplane yesterday in germany.. were usually mantainance
is done properly.
In fact, both engine istruments indications were in accord.
This let me think that is not something strange to do with a single
engine
or both engines with the same problem at the same time with a life so
different:
0 hours vs 1200 hours...
Please ask me any further detail can help You.
S.

[Peter Duniho]

"Scott Skylane" > wrote in message
...
> The TSIO-360EB is boosted to 40", quite high for a general aviation
> engine.

Well, there you go! 29/2400 is probably *less* than 75% power. :)

And yes, that's pretty high. Wow. Poor little tiny engines, asked to put
up with so much! :)

Pete

[[email protected]]

On 7 Aug 2005 08:40:41 -0700, "Silvio Mecucci"
> wrote:

Please refer to TCM SID97-3C (latest revision is dated 2-25-2005).

http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SID97-3C.pdf

It describes in detail how the fuel injection system on your engines
is to be set-up.

This should have been accomplished when your "new" engine was
installed, and the unmetered pressures and fuel flows should be
verified periodically (during scheduled inspections).

I am not saying that you have a problem, but ensuring that you have
the proper fuel delivered to a turbo-supercharged aircraft engine is
not an option.

Regards;

TC

>Hi all,
>Yesterday I was flying on a Seneca II equipped with TSIO 360EB Teledyne
>Continental engines.
>The first flight (Dusseldorf-Milan) took 2 hours, FL 140, everything
>working perfectly adn according to the manual.
>The second flight (Milan-Rome) had the following inconvenience on BOTH
>engines:
>At FL 130 29" MAP 2400rpm the indicated fuel flow was 12 Gal/Hours
>but the Mixture control lever were in the "Full Rich" position.
>I could not move them to lean mixture since the fuel flow was going
>down to less than 12. The speed was correct (about 170 KTAS), and the
>engines were both a little bit too hot, but not that much.
>I repeat it was behaving like this for BOTH engines. And this
>sound strange and new to me..
>
>I still have to fly again with the same plane, and it will be checked
>by a specialist before, but, is there anybody who has an idea about
>what was happening ?
>
>Silvio

[[email protected]]

>>>We were running about 210=B0 F for Oil and 420=B0F for CHT. <<<

I'm not entirely familiar with the TIO-360 but those CHTs sound high to
me. Maybe I'm just conditioned to seeing temps around 370-380 in the
Aztec/Lance (non-turbo) but John Deakin's excellent articles on this
subject warn of exceeding 400F. Like another poster suggested maybe the
FI system is out of whack?


>>>They are Continental engines rated for 200hp at sea level and 215hp at 1=
2,000ft<<<

Turbo engines with a higher power rating at altitude? Never heard of
that, but then again I only have a few hours in the PA34-200T.

[Silvio Mecucci]

That's what's written in the POH ..

[Silvio Mecucci]

Today the airplane has been seen by a specialist.
A good quick test in his opinion was the following:
At sea level (we were at 600') with 40" MAP a fuel flow of at least 22
Gal/Hours should be metered / assured.
The left engines was going at 22, the right one at 23.
The left seems to be a little bit leaner (even at low rpm) than the
right, but in his opinion the airplane is in airworthyness.
The engines tuning to run exactly the same values may not be a good
idea (he said) since they are not in the same
manteinance state (0 vs 1200 hours). Some difference can be seen.
They can also be tuned to run exactly in the same way but this will
last only for few hours and then the differences will come up again..

[TC]

Based on personal experience, the fuel injection system on your
engine/s needs to be set-up precisely by the reference I gave you,
using the higher limits for metered fuel pressure/fuel flow.

These limits are to be determined using calibrated equipment. Your
metered fuel pressure should be between 15.8-18.3 (I would highly
recommend 18.3) psi referenced to manifold upper deck pressure. This
should result in an actual calibrated fuel flow between 22.1 and 23.8
gallons per hour. Again, more fuel is better.

Using the fuel flow gage (which is actually measuring metered fuel
pressure) or a fuel totalizer installed in the aircraft is not suitable
for this test/adjustment. Once the proper fuel injection system set-up
has been accomplished, noting the respective take-off fuel flow
indication is a good way of keeping track of the status of your fuel
delivery.

Depending on the engine/airframe installation, with the system set-up
properly, quite often the panel mounted fuel flow gage indication will
be at or above the high limit on the face of the gage.

BTW, TCM considers any installed engine warranties to be null and void
if these procedures are not followed to the letter.

Again, I am not implying that you have a problem with your engines,
just pointing out that there is a defined procedure to ensure that they
are getting enough fuel...bearing in mind that the TSIO-360 series of
engines is one of the most expensive general aviation engines
(horsepower vs. TBO vs. overhaul cost) being used today.

I do not want to get into the whole ROP/LOP discussion, but at a 75%
cruise power setting, your EGT/TIT should be at least 125-150 degrees
ROP with the mixture full rich.

Regards;

TC

[Silvio Mecucci]

At the end I agree with you.
I'll look carefullt at temperatures in the next flights and if they'll
not be in the
limits I'll stop the plane for a proper fuel setup.

Thank You all for the help guys!
S.