Took the Kids Up (First Time) [Archive]

Marco Leon

August 8th 05, 04:41 PM

Things fell into place this past weekend to finally take the kids up in the
airplane. Their grandma's birthday, a nice high-pressure over New York, our
original weekend plans falling through and relatively cooler weather all
made for the right opportunity to cut a 6-hour car ride down to a 2-hour
plane ride from Long Island (FRG) to Lake George (Ticonderoga 4B6) for a
surprise visit.

What a flight. Took off at 8AM Saturday to avoid any low-level bumps of
which we experienced exactly zero. Filed IFR for that little extra traffic
avoidance assurance although only one aircraft was called out to us. The
one-year-old fell asleep on climbout just like I've read about in so many
posts in this newsgroup. She kept her earplugs in almost the entire time. My
three-year-old kept his headset on the entire time as well with a little
help from the "Dora the Explorer" audio off the DVD player pumping through
the music input (marking its first-ever use).

With regards to the return flight, the flip-flop of forecasts from Friday
through Sunday for the Long Island area created some anxiety on my part
while staying at my folk's house in Ticonderoga. But all was well in the 8AM
forecast Sunday morning reinforcing my Forrest Gump-ish belief that "you
never know what yer going to get" until the day you fly. As of Saturday Aug
6th, a warm stationary front was threatening to push up from the south over
Long Island (but I thought it was "stationary??").

I took the advice from another in the group to put "Infant on board.
Requesting shallow descents" in the remark section of the flight plan. A
couple of controller's along the way asked how the baby was doing which
added to the enjoyment of the flight--especially for my wife. Although we
didn't end up using any special handling, it was great to know that the
controllers were keeping an eye out for us. On a side note, my experience
with NY controllers has been 99% good and I'm convinced their reputation for
being cut-throat is only from the fact that they're so damn busy all the tim
e.

It will still be a while until I take them up in IMC and probably not when
there's an airmet for turbulence until I get more experience and the kids
get a little older. I want to be careful not to sour their taste for flight
with a bad experience early-on. By that time, I'll have hopefully saved a
few pennies to get the Garmin 396 to help alleviate my IMC anxiety level as
well.

What normally would have been a car ride eating up the entire usable day
became a pleasant GA trip that allowed us to hit the beach on Sunday
afternoon while marveling at the fact that we were 300 car-miles away just a
couple of hours ago.

Only in general aviation.

Marco Leon

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Jay Honeck

August 9th 05, 04:39 AM

> What normally would have been a car ride eating up the entire usable day
> became a pleasant GA trip that allowed us to hit the beach on Sunday
> afternoon while marveling at the fact that we were 300 car-miles away just
> a
> couple of hours ago.

Way to go, Marco -- sounds like a great trip.

With an airplane, UPS, and the internet, it is literally possible to live
ANYWHERE in the U.S. nowadays, quickly partaking in all the benefits of
tourist traps and big cities while avoiding all of the drawbacks to actually
living in these places.

GA is one of the best things that can ever happen to a family. If only
more people realized this fact, we wouldn't be closing airports...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Aluckyguess

August 9th 05, 05:04 AM

300 miles away and your not tired when you get there.
Thats what I love about flying.
"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
> Things fell into place this past weekend to finally take the kids up in
> the
> airplane. Their grandma's birthday, a nice high-pressure over New York,
> our
> original weekend plans falling through and relatively cooler weather all
> made for the right opportunity to cut a 6-hour car ride down to a 2-hour
> plane ride from Long Island (FRG) to Lake George (Ticonderoga 4B6) for a
> surprise visit.
>
> What a flight. Took off at 8AM Saturday to avoid any low-level bumps of
> which we experienced exactly zero. Filed IFR for that little extra traffic
> avoidance assurance although only one aircraft was called out to us. The
> one-year-old fell asleep on climbout just like I've read about in so many
> posts in this newsgroup. She kept her earplugs in almost the entire time.
> My
> three-year-old kept his headset on the entire time as well with a little
> help from the "Dora the Explorer" audio off the DVD player pumping through
> the music input (marking its first-ever use).
>
> With regards to the return flight, the flip-flop of forecasts from Friday
> through Sunday for the Long Island area created some anxiety on my part
> while staying at my folk's house in Ticonderoga. But all was well in the
> 8AM
> forecast Sunday morning reinforcing my Forrest Gump-ish belief that "you
> never know what yer going to get" until the day you fly. As of Saturday
> Aug
> 6th, a warm stationary front was threatening to push up from the south
> over
> Long Island (but I thought it was "stationary??").
>
> I took the advice from another in the group to put "Infant on board.
> Requesting shallow descents" in the remark section of the flight plan. A
> couple of controller's along the way asked how the baby was doing which
> added to the enjoyment of the flight--especially for my wife. Although we
> didn't end up using any special handling, it was great to know that the
> controllers were keeping an eye out for us. On a side note, my experience
> with NY controllers has been 99% good and I'm convinced their reputation
> for
> being cut-throat is only from the fact that they're so damn busy all the
> tim
> e.
>
> It will still be a while until I take them up in IMC and probably not when
> there's an airmet for turbulence until I get more experience and the kids
> get a little older. I want to be careful not to sour their taste for
> flight
> with a bad experience early-on. By that time, I'll have hopefully saved a
> few pennies to get the Garmin 396 to help alleviate my IMC anxiety level
> as
> well.
>
> What normally would have been a car ride eating up the entire usable day
> became a pleasant GA trip that allowed us to hit the beach on Sunday
> afternoon while marveling at the fact that we were 300 car-miles away just
> a
> couple of hours ago.
>
> Only in general aviation.
>
> Marco Leon
>
>
>
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.usenet.com

Marco Leon

August 9th 05, 05:04 AM

Thanks Jay. You're the first person to come to mind whenever I think of
"flying with the family." I appreciate your many posts relating to that
subject.

I have to prep my family for that trip to Oshkosh ya know. Next I'll need to
prep my wife for camping!

Marco Leon

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:qzVJe.233052$x96.30750@attbi_s72...
>> What normally would have been a car ride eating up the entire usable day
>> became a pleasant GA trip that allowed us to hit the beach on Sunday
>> afternoon while marveling at the fact that we were 300 car-miles away
>> just a
>> couple of hours ago.
>
> Way to go, Marco -- sounds like a great trip.
>
> With an airplane, UPS, and the internet, it is literally possible to live
> ANYWHERE in the U.S. nowadays, quickly partaking in all the benefits of
> tourist traps and big cities while avoiding all of the drawbacks to
> actually living in these places.
>
> GA is one of the best things that can ever happen to a family. If only
> more people realized this fact, we wouldn't be closing airports...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Jay Honeck

August 9th 05, 05:55 AM

> I have to prep my family for that trip to Oshkosh ya know. Next I'll need
> to prep my wife for camping!

Well, we're already making plans! Jack and Steve Allison have had so much
fun the last two years, that they are now planning to bring their wives in
2006.

I forget where you're based, but if you really can make it to OSH, don't
forget our fly-in pool party, always held two days before OSH. Next year
that will be on Saturday, July 22nd!

If tradition holds true, there will be a few of us who then opt to fly into
OSH as a loose gaggle. (This year we had four aircraft.) This allows us
to be parked (relatively) close together, which makes sustaining the party
throughout the week just *that* much easier!

Hope to see you then, if not before...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

George Patterson

August 9th 05, 05:03 PM

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> GA is one of the best things that can ever happen to a family. If only
> more people realized this fact, we wouldn't be closing airports...

Very few people with a family are in a position to pay the cost in money, time,
and risk to effectively partake in general aviation.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Dan Luke

August 9th 05, 05:24 PM

"George Patterson" wrote:

> Very few people with a family are in a position to pay the cost in money,
> time, and risk to effectively partake in general aviation.

Too true, alas.

Outside of myself and usenet acquaintences, I don't know anyone who regularly
makes family trips in personal aircraft.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

john smith

August 9th 05, 08:10 PM

> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> GA is one of the best things that can ever happen to a family. If
>> only more people realized this fact, we wouldn't be closing airports...

George Patterson wrote:
> Very few people with a family are in a position to pay the cost in
> money, time, and risk to effectively partake in general aviation.

I disagree, George.
It is a choice people make as to how to spend their disposable income.
It may have more to do with level of education and type of employment.
It may also be more difficult now with higher fuel prices absorbing more
of the available disposable income.

Marco Leon

August 9th 05, 08:22 PM

Very true George. My flight hours went down significantly after I had kids.
I expected to start a family back in 2000 with my then fiancée which was
part of the reason I chose to get the cheapest 4-seater I could get with
straight-forward maintenance. It also played into the decision to becoming
an owner in the first place because I knew I would have probably stopped
flying altogether because of all the reasons you stated. And if I took my
family up, it would only be in an aircraft where I was 100% confident of the
maintenance history.

I took on a partner after I had the first child to make the costs much more
palatable and reasonable. My "partner" happens to be my uncle and we have a
slightly non-standard agreement that's working quite well. IMO, partnerships
make sense for a large portion of GA ownership situations and even more so
for pilots with growing families.

That being said, I feel very lucky to still be able to pull this off. I'm
getting in the air more often but I know they won't be back to the levels
during my single/pre-family days but that's OK. Makes me cherish each hour
aloft.

Marco Leon

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:It4Ke.2234$D4.839@trndny07...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > GA is one of the best things that can ever happen to a family. If only
> > more people realized this fact, we wouldn't be closing airports...
>
> Very few people with a family are in a position to pay the cost in money,
time,
> and risk to effectively partake in general aviation.
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson

August 9th 05, 08:39 PM

john smith wrote:
>
> I disagree, George.
> It is a choice people make as to how to spend their disposable income.
> It may have more to do with level of education and type of employment.
> It may also be more difficult now with higher fuel prices absorbing more
> of the available disposable income.

You seem to be concentrating on the money. While it may or may not be true that
most Americans can afford the $5,000 or more it takes to keep a 4-seater on
tiedown and fly it a few hours a year, I certainly wouldn't think so. That's
about 10% of the median income for an American family.

As for the other two items, very few can take the time necessary to maintain a
proficiency level good enough for even a few VFR cross-country trips a year.
Fewer still can afford to get an instrument rating and stay current. And even
fewer are able to convince both themselves and their spouses to take the risks
inherent in taking long trips by light aircraft, especially if they're honest
about how marginal their piloting skills have become flying, say, 50 hours a
year. It's also one thing to head for Sun'n Fun solo, knowing that you will have
to call the boss if the weather keeps you from coming back on time. It's quite
another thing to take the family somewhere and risk having to return 3 days late.

And just about the time that the kids are getting big enough to enjoy it, you
can't fit the family in the old Cherokee (or the not-so-old Maule) anymore.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Jay Honeck

August 9th 05, 11:46 PM

> > GA is one of the best things that can ever happen to a family. If only
> > more people realized this fact, we wouldn't be closing airports...
>
> Very few people with a family are in a position to pay the cost in money, time,
> and risk to effectively partake in general aviation.

While you are correct, a very much larger proportion of those who COULD
afford it have never even considered it -- simply because they are
ignorant of the advantages GA has to offer.

It's an education thing as much as a money thing -- and it's our job to
teach them!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jonathan Goodish

August 10th 05, 03:07 AM

In article <It4Ke.2234$D4.839@trndny07>,
George Patterson > wrote:

> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > GA is one of the best things that can ever happen to a family. If only
> > more people realized this fact, we wouldn't be closing airports...
>
> Very few people with a family are in a position to pay the cost in money,
> time,
> and risk to effectively partake in general aviation.

I just don't buy this argument. While it may be true for some, there
are also those who claim they can't afford it, but they can afford to
live in $500,000 houses, they can afford new monster SUVs every 3 years,
they can afford nice vacations every year with the entire family, and
they can afford to head out golfing every weekend. I've concluded that
most folks simply value those other things more than aviation. My wife
and I are far from wealthy, but I can't complain. We drive older cars
(that are paid for) and purposely built a smaller house than many of our
neighbors in order to meet a set budget that we had. We don't buy
things that aren't a necessity, except on special occasions. And with
all that we give up, we put into flying. And it's worth it.

That being said, I think it would be very difficult to convince most of
my coworkers to take up flying. Actually, it would be very difficult to
convince most of my coworkers' wives to allow them to take up flying.
Even when folks are interested, if the spouse is not (and usually this
is the woman), that creates a problem... especially if kids are in the
mix.

JKG

Trent Moorehead

August 10th 05, 04:25 PM

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:SD7Ke.4802$lK2.1218@trndny01...

> You seem to be concentrating on the money. While it may or may not be true
that
> most Americans can afford the $5,000 or more it takes to keep a 4-seater
on
> tiedown and fly it a few hours a year, I certainly wouldn't think so.
That's
> about 10% of the median income for an American family.
>
> As for the other two items, very few can take the time necessary to
maintain a
> proficiency level good enough for even a few VFR cross-country trips a
year.
> Fewer still can afford to get an instrument rating and stay current. And
even
> fewer are able to convince both themselves and their spouses to take the
risks
> inherent in taking long trips by light aircraft, especially if they're
honest
> about how marginal their piloting skills have become flying, say, 50 hours
a
> year. It's also one thing to head for Sun'n Fun solo, knowing that you
will have
> to call the boss if the weather keeps you from coming back on time. It's
quite
> another thing to take the family somewhere and risk having to return 3
days late.
>
> And just about the time that the kids are getting big enough to enjoy it,
you
> can't fit the family in the old Cherokee (or the not-so-old Maule)
anymore.

George, you nailed several points about GA and families. While it is
certainly possible to involve the whole family in GA activities, in many
cases, it's hard to do. Like you said, when they are really small, they fit
the W&B, but they are very needy and may actually not like it. When they get
older, they have this way of getting big (and heavy) and I just can't afford
a Cherokee Six, at least right now. And kids want to bring their friends
along. What now? A Caravan?

I've been wrestling with this issue for a few months now. I have a 6 year
old son and a 1 year old daughter.

I have taken my son to the airport hundreds of times, but he's just not that
interested. I took him flying and and he wasn't too impressed. He's the
outdoorsy type who likes to fish, hike and explore and likes my attention.
While you're flying, you just can't pay attention to your kids, which is
what they really want anyway. Why the hell take them if they don't enjoy it?
[Now, I am just talking about flying here, not X/C's. Destinations can be a
lot of fun] I came to the realization that flying is for ME, not really for
the family and I seem to be the only one who gets a kick out of it. Not that
there is anything really wrong with that, but when you have a young family,
you just don't have that much time for yourself. My wife supports my flying
(for which I am very grateful), it's just not HER thing either.

You mentioned time. I seem to have NO extra time these days. I pay dearly
for any time spent away from the house because my wife needs me at home to
help with the kids. It's hard to fly enough to keep current because of the
lack of time. I began to feel that the best thing to do would be to find
things that we can do together as a family that I also enjoy, not just me
going off by myself.

So, I bought a boat this year. It's an activity that we can all do together
and we can invite friends as well. While it's not flying, it does have some
of the same feelings of satisfaction of a job well done. The big difference
is that while I enjoy doing it, the whole family does too. Someone mentioned
that the best way to keep your kids interested in family outings is to let
them invite their friends. No big deal, invite who you can, pack the cooler
and head to the lake. Everyone has a blast and it's cheap!

I still fly, but I don't badger everyone to do it with me. I realize it's MY
thing and anyone who wants to join me can do so. I do hold out hope that
it's something that my kids will take a shine to, but there's always that
chance that they won't. I have to be OK with that. I plan to take my son up
this Fall, just him and me and see how it goes. It's funny, he always is
asking me when we are going fishing again, even though we've flown before. I
think the difference is that while fishing, we can talk, and relax and we
spend time together. While flying, I am rather preoccupied with what I am
doing and can't be silly, which he really likes.

GA is awesome, but my opinion is that it isn't the ideal family activity. To
those who make it work, God bless'em.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

Marco Leon

August 10th 05, 07:16 PM

Actually, it's only a little over 200 air-miles away. Living in the middle
of Long Island, I need to do a big dogleg to the west when I go north by
car--adding 100 miles. Just another thing to love about flying!

"Aluckyguess" > wrote in message
...
> 300 miles away and your not tired when you get there.
> Thats what I love about flying.

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Jay Honeck

August 11th 05, 03:18 AM

> George, you nailed several points about GA and families. While it is
> certainly possible to involve the whole family in GA activities, in many
> cases, it's hard to do. Like you said, when they are really small, they
> fit
> the W&B, but they are very needy and may actually not like it. When they
> get
> older, they have this way of getting big (and heavy) and I just can't
> afford
> a Cherokee Six, at least right now.

You need a Pathfinder, Trent. No W&B issues, ever, and a 1460 pound useful
load.

> GA is awesome, but my opinion is that it isn't the ideal family activity.

Since April, as a family, we have flown to Florida, Seattle (commercial),
Washington, D.C., Mackinac Island, Door County, WI, Oshkosh, and the Ozarks,
with many other shorter trips in between.

With the exception of Florida and Seattle, NONE of these trips could have
been done without GA. Our time schedule and the ability to return on a
moment's notice make the airplane an absolute necessity, if we ever wish to
leave home at all.

Our children's lives would be dramatically diminished without GA, and every
time we're stuck driving somewhere they realize it. They have seen and
done things that none of their peers will ever experience, and the older
they get the more they realize how special their lives really are. The sad
thing is, people choose not to fly GA for many bogus reasons, ranging from
cost to "it's too hard." NONE of these reasons are valid, but we in the GA
world have done a terrible job of spreading the word to the non-flying
public.

Enjoy your boat, but don't label GA as being "family unfriendly" simply
because you haven't been able to make it work. Flying is one of the
greatest (and, for a change, useful) family activities there is.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

W P Dixon

August 11th 05, 03:44 AM

Jay,
I think you make a good point. My bigest peeve is you never see a flight
school put an ad in the local newspaper, or in any type of media that is not
just see by the people that are already pilots! I have never seen it anway.
Every other type of biz advertises to gain customers. GA does not.
The cost to run an ad in a local paper is very reasonable, and may bring
in 10 new students instead of 2 or 3 . I think this can be especially useful
to the sport pilot rule. The public does not even know about it! Heck I know
mechs that have not heard about it yet! For TV, put Paris Hilton in her
bikini crawling in a Cherokee and see how many young male pilots GA gets! ;)
If people never "know about it", "see it" , unless there is an accident,
what can aviation expect? They have to advertise to draw biz , that is why
other companies advertise!
The more pilots made, the more need for new GA aircraft. Fabbing new GA
aircraft makes more aviation jobs, etc etc.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:2AyKe.238299$x96.106126@attbi_s72...
NONE of these reasons are valid, but we in the GA
> world have done a terrible job of spreading the word to the non-flying
> public.
>
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

George Patterson

August 11th 05, 04:47 AM

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> You need a Pathfinder, Trent. No W&B issues, ever, and a 1460 pound useful
> load.

And costs upwards of $80,000.

> With the exception of Florida and Seattle, NONE of these trips could have
> been done without GA. Our time schedule and the ability to return on a
> moment's notice make the airplane an absolute necessity, if we ever wish to
> leave home at all.

You seem to forget about weather delays. "Moment's notice" my foot. Me, I've had
to cancel more family trips than fly them.

> Our children's lives would be dramatically diminished without GA, and every
> time we're stuck driving somewhere they realize it.

You're the guy who recently begged for ideas on things to make them want to go
flying instead of something else.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Jose

August 11th 05, 04:57 AM

> You need a Pathfinder, Trent. No W&B issues, ever, and a 1460 pound useful
> load.

Oh, I don't know. Our Dakota has too much weight in the back and we
can't load it fully without going out of balance. There's some talk
about moving the battery forward.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jay Honeck

August 11th 05, 05:13 AM

>> You need a Pathfinder, Trent. No W&B issues, ever, and a 1460 pound
>> useful load.
>
> Oh, I don't know. Our Dakota has too much weight in the back and we can't
> load it fully without going out of balance. There's some talk about
> moving the battery forward.

We have run every W&B scenario in our plane, including four 200 pounders,
plus baggage, plus full fuel. No worries!

:-)

It's one of the few planes that you can do that in. (In fact, flying with
just the two of us in the front is the toughest scenario, as we're at the
farthest forward W&B allowable.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck

August 11th 05, 05:18 AM

> You seem to forget about weather delays. "Moment's notice" my foot. Me,
> I've had to cancel more family trips than fly them.

That's just bad luck, George. I can't remember the last trip we delayed
because of weather. (Of course, it's been an almost perfect flying season
in the Midwest, thanks to the months-long drought.)

Have we ended up delayed a few times? You bet! But our three days stuck in
Nashville (waiting for the snow to stop) have become some very fond
memories, even though (at the time) we would have much rather have been at
Sun N Fun.

It's all part of the adventure of flying.

> You're the guy who recently begged for ideas on things to make them want
> to go flying instead of something else.

That's for just "run of the mill" bop-around flying. For family trips,
they are every bit as eager to get in the plane as I am!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

N93332

August 11th 05, 05:23 AM

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> Jay,
> I think you make a good point. My bigest peeve is you never see a flight
> school put an ad in the local newspaper, or in any type of media that is
> not just see by the people that are already pilots! I have never seen it
> anway. Every other type of biz advertises to gain customers. GA does not.
> NONE of these reasons are valid, but we in the GA
>> world have done a terrible job of spreading the word to the non-flying
>> public.

Would an ad in the local newspaper draw much attention for a flight school?
When I got interested in flying (finally), I looked through the 'community
education' flyer that came in the mail and found a class for ground school
available. If there are local community colleges around the area that offer
any type of GA training, that'd be a good start and they do 'some'
advertising.

One thing that gets word out about GA in this area (MN/IA) are the flight
breakfasts somewhere just about every Sunday during the summer. The local
communities sponsor and advertise these and have good turnouts by the
locals. I'm planning on Humboldt's fly-in this Sunday and Mankato the next
Sunday, both which have around 100 planes fly in and another 500-1000 locals
show up. Plane rides are offered at these to get local people interested in
GA.

-Greg B.

RST Engineering

August 11th 05, 06:32 AM

Ummm....

The 182 ain't far behind you in the lead bricks category.

Jim

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:VfAKe.238431$x96.114046@attbi_s72...

> We have run every W&B scenario in our plane, including four 200 pounders,
> plus baggage, plus full fuel. No worries!
>
> :-)
>
> It's one of the few planes that you can do that in.

W P Dixon

August 11th 05, 05:03 PM

Greg,
Sounds like they are trying to do something in your area and that is good.
We have several colleges in the area but I do not know if they offer a
ground school or not. If they do they sure don't advertise it!:) Local
newspapers could be very effective IMO, especially in decent size cities and
towns. You looked at a community college handout and found the ground
school, I don't think alot of people would even think a college did anything
like that. So that may be the last place alot of folks would see. And alot
of folks cringe at the thought of being in a formal classroom again..me
included! HAHA But alot of folks read the paper, or at least get a paper,
and the best ad is the one that gets the attention of someone who is not
looking to be a pilot. An ad is supposed to make you feel like you want to
try a product.
A decent ad with a good intro price, and someone who has had flying GA
in the back of their mind for years, due to paying for a house, sending kids
to school and all those other things in life that comes up with may just get
the incentive to go do it! And the great thing about an ad is it makes
someone think about it that never has before.
Our problem is aviation always waits for people to come to it, instead
of going to the people. Oh and sorry for the mis-spelled words /typos, my 19
month old had knocked my keyboard in the floor and I had keys all over the
place ! got them all back in but some were not functioning all that well ;)
Dang shift key is still only working 50% it seems.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"N93332" > wrote in message
...
> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Jay,
>> I think you make a good point. My bigest peeve is you never see a
>> flight school put an ad in the local newspaper, or in any type of media
>> that is not just see by the people that are already pilots! I have never
>> seen it anway. Every other type of biz advertises to gain customers. GA
>> does not.
>> NONE of these reasons are valid, but we in the GA
>>> world have done a terrible job of spreading the word to the non-flying
>>> public.
>
> Would an ad in the local newspaper draw much attention for a flight
> school? When I got interested in flying (finally), I looked through the
> 'community education' flyer that came in the mail and found a class for
> ground school available. If there are local community colleges around the
> area that offer any type of GA training, that'd be a good start and they
> do 'some' advertising.
>
> One thing that gets word out about GA in this area (MN/IA) are the flight
> breakfasts somewhere just about every Sunday during the summer. The local
> communities sponsor and advertise these and have good turnouts by the
> locals. I'm planning on Humboldt's fly-in this Sunday and Mankato the next
> Sunday, both which have around 100 planes fly in and another 500-1000
> locals show up. Plane rides are offered at these to get local people
> interested in GA.
>
> -Greg B.
>

Trent Moorehead

August 11th 05, 08:37 PM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:2AyKe.238299$x96.106126@attbi_s72...

> You need a Pathfinder, Trent. No W&B issues, ever, and a 1460 pound
useful
> load.

I'm a renter right now. Maybe someday. Can anyone loan me some money? :)

> Since April, as a family, we have flown to Florida, Seattle (commercial),
> Washington, D.C., Mackinac Island, Door County, WI, Oshkosh, and the
Ozarks,
> with many other shorter trips in between.

> The sad
> thing is, people choose not to fly GA for many bogus reasons, ranging from
> cost to "it's too hard." NONE of these reasons are valid, but we in the
GA
> world have done a terrible job of spreading the word to the non-flying
> public.

I have to disagree there. Those reasons are valid, if only for the family
that feels they are. If I had a full-grown family of four, but couldn't
afford a Pathfinder (or similiar heavy lifter), how could I fly my family on
vacation? If renting a capable plane cost 2 or 3 times as much as a
commercial ticket, how could I justify it? Then there is the cost of time
and money of getting checked out, getting current in said aircraft on top of
all that. All that is a whole lot harder and more expensive than buying a
commercial ticket or just driving.

> Enjoy your boat, but don't label GA as being "family unfriendly" simply
> because you haven't been able to make it work. Flying is one of the
> greatest (and, for a change, useful) family activities there is.

I labeled it family unfriendly because it is unaccessible to most families
because of cost alone. You have to admit that buying an $80,000 airplane is
a HUGE investment; that's roughly what it would cost to own a true
four-place airplane. That's more than some families' houses! And the fact
that your kids (if you have two) can't bring their friends along makes it
even worse. A lot of my friends have 3 or more kids. What are they going to
do?

See where I am going with this? I love aviation and I love to fly. I just
realize that it has its limitations when it comes to family recreation
and/or transportation. It's working for your family and that's great, but
you were wondering why GA isn't more prevelant with families and I'm
offering my point of view.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

Jay Honeck

August 12th 05, 12:34 AM

> I labeled it family unfriendly because it is unaccessible to most families
> because of cost alone. You have to admit that buying an $80,000 airplane
> is
> a HUGE investment; that's roughly what it would cost to own a true
> four-place airplane. That's more than some families' houses!

True. However, it's also far less than many of my neighbors have spent on
boating and golf -- two entirely useless (albeit fun) activities -- AND an
airplane is an APPRECIATING asset.

GA costs a fair piece of change for sure -- but look at the rewards! If we
leave at sunrise, we can be in Florida by lunchtime! Or, if we prefer, we
can be at the Smithsonian by late in the afternoon!

Going the other direction, we can be at Mt. Rushmore by supper, or the Lake
Superior shoreline for lunch. Rather head south? We can be in Texas for
an early supper.

See what I mean? GA is THE way to travel the country, so long as you don't
have more than two kids. (And I met two families at the Cherokee Fly-In
last weekend with four kids apiece -- and their Cherokee Sixes did the job
for them quite nicely.)

GA is NOT overly expensive, when compared to the heavy-duty golf aficionado,
or the in-water boater -- and there are literally MILLIONS of them. Sadly,
most of them believe that GA is impossible for them, simply through
ignorance of the situation.

We have GOT to get the message across to that group, somehow.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

George Patterson

August 12th 05, 01:26 AM

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> GA is NOT overly expensive, when compared to the heavy-duty golf aficionado,
> or the in-water boater -- and there are literally MILLIONS of them. Sadly,
> most of them believe that GA is impossible for them, simply through
> ignorance of the situation.

I personally know of none who feel this way. The ones I know simply have no
interest in aviation (outside the cost of an airline ticket).

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Newps

August 12th 05, 01:57 AM

George Patterson wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>
>> GA is NOT overly expensive, when compared to the heavy-duty golf
>> aficionado, or the in-water boater -- and there are literally MILLIONS
>> of them.

Not sure what "in-water boater" means but assuming it means the average
boat owner you have got to be kidding. Owning a boat costs a small
fraction of what operating a 182 does. A really nice brand new boat
runs less than $30K. A good used boat is around $10K-15K. Insurance is
hardly anything. Maintenence is zip compared to a plane. No hangar or
its associated insurance. For what I have invested in flying I could
buy each of the four members of my family a brand new boat and trailer
and all the goodies somebody needs for a day of skiing/tubing/fishing.
For the same money I have a near 37 year old plane that I just sold to
buy a 40 year old plane, which costs a little more than 50% more than my
182. The same goes for golf, only more so.

Jay Honeck

August 12th 05, 04:38 AM

> Not sure what "in-water boater" means but assuming it means the average
> boat owner you have got to be kidding. Owning a boat costs a small
> fraction of what operating a 182 does.

An "in-water boater" is a Great Lakes or open ocean boater. These are the
"big guys" -- the kind that are too big to be transported on a trailer.
Fly around the Great Lakes, and you will see thousands of them.

Each of these guys spends an unbelievable amount of money so that they can
spend 14 weeks each year (on the Great Lakes; more on the ocean, if down
South) getting drunk on what amounts to a small, floating hotel room.

We've got friends who own a 40+ foot yacht on Lake Michigan. It cost over
$300K to acquire, and an amazing amount of money to maintain. (Each year
they have to pay to have it removed with a crane, and then shrink wrapped --
I'm not kidding -- for winter storage.) Worse, it is a depreciating asset,
meaning that it is worth less and less every year. It has two 350-cubic
inch Chevy engines, gets 6 gallons to the mile, and they never, ever leave
the dock.

Yet, they look at Mary and me flying all over the country as an unaffordable
extravagance, even though they know that what we spend is a tiny fraction of
what they spend on boating. And the guy took flight lessons at one time.

> The same goes for golf, only more so.

Clearly you have not rubbed elbows with really serious golfers. I know guys
who spend hundreds per WEEK playing golf, all over the country. Hell, a
single Big Bertha driver can cost $400 bucks -- and tee times at the best
courses run into many hundreds of dollars for a single round of golf.

And these guys never play a single round.

It ALMOST makes a Garmin GNS 530 look like a justifiable expense!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Morgans

August 12th 05, 05:15 AM

"W P Dixon" > wrote

> For TV, put Paris Hilton in her
> bikini crawling in a Cherokee and see how many young male pilots GA
> gets! ;)

Shoot, use a real pilot, like Angelena Joilet! She has more to hang out,
too.!

For the potential women pilots, use Harrison Ford.

There are many good examples on each side. I agree.

You could also do a series on someone like Paris Hilton learning to fly, and
show the weekly sessons, culminating in getting her ticket. The EAA did
that with a lady, but she was not a personality, nor did they follow up. In
today's reality TV, how much better could it get?

Wait a minute. Is Paris Hilton smart enough to learn how to pass the
written and learning to fly? <g>

Note to Paris' lawyers. That was just a joke. <g>
--
Jim in NC

W P Dixon

August 12th 05, 01:51 PM

Hmmm,
Jay as an ex very avid golfer I would say you have not played alot of golf.
I played twice a week for years,...and greens fees vary greatly according to
what part of the country you are in. Amazingly it costs alot more to play
golf in the south than it does out west! Go figure, since they spend tons of
money watering a course in Palm Springs! Playing Indian Wells was very
cheap, on the other hand Ameilia Island , FL you would almost have to
mortgage the house! HAHA Ok not really but it was over 100 bucks.
Smart golfers have custom clubs built for them, my last set which still
sits in my basement collecting dust now, was built for me in Myrtle Beach ,
SC . Built just for me, to my swing , height and with the proper weights for
me. It was about closing time at the golf shop and the fellow really wanted
to make a sale, and I got my new clubs for $189.00. Ok and I really splurged
and spent another 30 on a new putter! ;)
And like everything else in this world you can spend alot or you can
spend alittle. You can play a 20-30 buck green fee course or a 60-80 one.
Most duffers don't play the big buck ones ALL the time.
And thankfully my clubs did not require annual inspections, oil changes,
wiring harness, tires and brakes, and insurance. No finance charges, no
hangar fees, no tie downs. No new GPS to find my way on the course;) No old
avionics to replace. Sure you could spend 3,000 on a set of clubs, but you
don't have to! And the best set of clubs are ones made for you.
And golf my friend is the most frustrating fun you can have!;) But it's
just like anything else, it's only as cheap as you are smart. I would bet
alot of you guys spend more in maintinance in a year than I did playing golf
twice a week.
Aviation can be alot cheaper as well. But unless you build a 3000 buck
plane yourself , have your own private airfield on a farm, do your own
maint. You will spend more money. And hey if you get good at golf you never
have to buy the beer!!!!!;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:vQUKe.19096$084.3545@attbi_s22...
>> Not sure what "in-water boater" means but assuming it means the average
>> boat owner you have got to be kidding. Owning a boat costs a small
>> fraction of what operating a 182 does.
>
> An "in-water boater" is a Great Lakes or open ocean boater. These are
> the "big guys" -- the kind that are too big to be transported on a
> trailer. Fly around the Great Lakes, and you will see thousands of them.
>
> Each of these guys spends an unbelievable amount of money so that they can
> spend 14 weeks each year (on the Great Lakes; more on the ocean, if down
> South) getting drunk on what amounts to a small, floating hotel room.
>
> We've got friends who own a 40+ foot yacht on Lake Michigan. It cost over
> $300K to acquire, and an amazing amount of money to maintain. (Each year
> they have to pay to have it removed with a crane, and then shrink
> wrapped -- I'm not kidding -- for winter storage.) Worse, it is a
> depreciating asset, meaning that it is worth less and less every year. It
> has two 350-cubic inch Chevy engines, gets 6 gallons to the mile, and they
> never, ever leave the dock.
>
> Yet, they look at Mary and me flying all over the country as an
> unaffordable extravagance, even though they know that what we spend is a
> tiny fraction of what they spend on boating. And the guy took flight
> lessons at one time.
>
>> The same goes for golf, only more so.
>
> Clearly you have not rubbed elbows with really serious golfers. I know
> guys who spend hundreds per WEEK playing golf, all over the country.
> Hell, a single Big Bertha driver can cost $400 bucks -- and tee times at
> the best courses run into many hundreds of dollars for a single round of
> golf.
>
> And these guys never play a single round.
>
> It ALMOST makes a Garmin GNS 530 look like a justifiable expense!
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

Jay Honeck

August 12th 05, 02:06 PM

> Jay as an ex very avid golfer I would say you have not played alot of
> golf.

Well, I used to belong to a club in Kenosha, WI. Played 2 or 3 times per
week for a few years.

And I *still* sucked, so I started flying...

:-)

> And golf my friend is the most frustrating fun you can have!;) But it's
> just like anything else, it's only as cheap as you are smart. I would bet
> alot of you guys spend more in maintinance in a year than I did playing
> golf twice a week.

True enough, but I'm not talking about the guys like me (and, apparently,
you) who played the local courses. I'm talking the guys who throw their
clubs on a commercial flight to go play Pebble Beach -- and there are a
surprising number of them out there. I used to work with two of them, yet
they thought that owning a plane was outrageously extravagant.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Newps

August 12th 05, 03:48 PM

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Jay as an ex very avid golfer I would say you have not played alot of
>>golf.
>
>
> Well, I used to belong to a club in Kenosha, WI. Played 2 or 3 times per
> week for a few years.
>
> And I *still* sucked, so I started flying...

And I was just the opposite. About 1993 I joined a local country club
for $500 and $60 per month. 27 hole course and the cheapest golf in
town if you played more than once a week. I played often and got my
handicap down to 5. This with store bought clubs and not much in the
way of practice and no lessons. Then I asked myself what's the point?
To get better would require better clubs, much more practice and work
with a pro. But to what end? I came in third in the club championship
that summer, shooting 76 and 75. I've hardly played since. I play a
few times a year and can shoot in the upper 70's when I try. I may pick
it back up again when the kids go to college.

George Patterson

August 12th 05, 05:48 PM

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> We've got friends who own a 40+ foot yacht on Lake Michigan. It cost over
> $300K to acquire, and an amazing amount of money to maintain. (Each year
> they have to pay to have it removed with a crane, and then shrink wrapped --
> I'm not kidding -- for winter storage.) Worse, it is a depreciating asset,
> meaning that it is worth less and less every year. It has two 350-cubic
> inch Chevy engines, gets 6 gallons to the mile, and they never, ever leave
> the dock.

I have a friend that has a 42 footer. He keeps it at Liberty Park marina, across
from Manhattan. He lives on it during the summer. Cost him $45,000 (used, like
most of our aircraft). He occasionally cruises as far as Albany for a vacation,
but its main use is a family summer home. His gas costs about what ours costs
us. His expenses are trivial compared to a hangar, maintenance, and inspection
fees for something like a Warrior. Sure, that family could probably afford to
fly. If he sold the boat. For the dubious privelege of shoehorning his family
into an aluminum sardine can, he could wear uncomfortable hearing protection for
hours while risking losing his job due to weather delays and spending three
times what airline tickets would cost to get him to the same place. That's
always assuming his wife wouldn't divorce him first.

In addition to knowing Tom, I do a fair amount of work for the Navasink Marina.
The social life at an airport can't compare to what the boat owners there enjoy.
For much less than the cost of keeping a typical 4-seat aircraft. Your friends
may not ever leave the dock, but all of the Navasink tenants do fairly
frequently. The Sea Bright drawbridge is up about 20% of the time I need to
cross it during summer, and it only opens for something about 2 stories tall.

Sure, most of them go into shrink wrap in December and don't come out until
early April, but when I was faced with digging the Maule out of the snow,
preheating for half an hour, and then freezing my cojones off to "warm up the
oil," I frequently wished we could do the same thing with our aircraft.

> Yet, they look at Mary and me flying all over the country as an unaffordable
> extravagance, even though they know that what we spend is a tiny fraction of
> what they spend on boating.

You spend a tremendous sum of money to do something they would pay to avoid
doing (and do).

> And these guys never play a single round.

*That's* your definition of a "serious golfer?" You are *really* divorced from
reality.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

W P Dixon

August 12th 05, 05:51 PM

Yes,
I do guess there are a few guys who just take commercial flights and go
play..all of my friends who did that used their travel miles and went for
free from all their biz trips. Myself I have played more courses in more
states than I even remember. Championship courses in CA, AZ, FL and even the
Augusta National. But like I said even most avid golfers do not play the
high dollar clubs all the time.
I never paid for a commercial flight, well I was a mech and I traveled
all over this great land..working on planes and playing golf! it was great!
Some of the best courses I have played were some of the cheapest in out of
the way places alot of people have never heard of. And on that note some of
the worse ones were the high dollar ones, go figure huh? You can't lump all
golfers into the throw clubs on a 747 and go play, that is just a small
group.
Kind of like saying all pilots have a Learjet in the hangar! ;) Now we
probably wish we all did, but fact is most of us can't put that kind of
money into a recreation. And if you played golf you also know it is like
wanting to fly two times a week, sometimes you can , others you can't.
Winter golf in Wisconsin would be a bitch! ;)
Golf is not as easy as people think, Iwas not ready for the tour myself!
I avg. low 80's and just could not get it any lower! I'd drive like an old
woman now so Lord only knows how my score would go to 150! HAHA I wouldn't
even attempt it! Bums me out sometimes, but at least I have an aileron in my
shop with my rollaway open for the first time in almost 3 years.;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Z81Le.20076$084.1711@attbi_s22...
>> Jay as an ex very avid golfer I would say you have not played alot of
>> golf.
>
> Well, I used to belong to a club in Kenosha, WI. Played 2 or 3 times per
> week for a few years.
>
> And I *still* sucked, so I started flying...
>
> :-)
>
>> And golf my friend is the most frustrating fun you can have!;) But
>> it's just like anything else, it's only as cheap as you are smart. I
>> would bet alot of you guys spend more in maintinance in a year than I did
>> playing golf twice a week.
>
> True enough, but I'm not talking about the guys like me (and, apparently,
> you) who played the local courses. I'm talking the guys who throw their
> clubs on a commercial flight to go play Pebble Beach -- and there are a
> surprising number of them out there. I used to work with two of them, yet
> they thought that owning a plane was outrageously extravagant.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>