Help Landing a Diamond DA-20

[[email protected]]

I'm a new student learning with a DA-20. Got most things mastered
except for the landings...most important, no? haha
Seems that most of my landings and I have only tried 9 times thus far
are not very well executed. My CFI sez that I am doing two things
wrong:
1) I am flaring too late.
2) When I flair, I am not quick enough on the stick.

I was thinking about the whole thing and have theroized that my CFI is
only telling me to flare when he is sure I am not going to do it on my
own and he wishes to remain alive. And here I am waiting for him to
tell me when to pull back. It seems that this combination might result
in a late action everytime. We need to discuss this next trip out.

When it appears that I am at the correct height, I pull back on the
stick and end up in a float, then I sense the fall and pull back one
again ending in a bounce or otherwise non-perfect result.

I will return to my CFI for more advice when I get another chance to
bang up the leased-back airplane, but in the mean time...anyone out
there have any advice on landing this thing perfectly??

Thanks in advance!

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm a new student learning with a DA-20. Got most things mastered
> except for the landings...most important, no? haha
> Seems that most of my landings and I have only tried 9 times thus far
> are not very well executed. My CFI sez that I am doing two things
> wrong:
> 1) I am flaring too late.
> 2) When I flair, I am not quick enough on the stick.

First, this is a classic problem for students. Second, you will have a lot
of success posting this in rec.aviation.student.

Third, this thread does come up here as well. One of my favorite
suggestions, one that is mentioned often and which helped me when I was
trying to learn to land:

With your instructor, practice NOT landing. Make all of the usual noise
beforehand, up to and including the final approach and flare. But do NOT
touch down. Fly the length of the runway as close to the runway without
touching the runway.

This exercise gives you a lot of time to take in what it actually looks like
to be in a landing attitude just above the runway. After you've done it
enough (usually a half-dozen times would suffice, but each person is
different of course), you'll have a much better feel for when and how to
execute the flare

Try to remember that the flare is not just a rote movement of the elevator.
There's an actual goal in mind: to reduce your descent rate to near zero,
just at the moment when you arrive at the runway. Adjust your elevator
movements appropriately; pause when it seems you may be slowing your descent
rate too quickly, speed up a little if it seems you're arriving too soon.
Don't try to push on the elevator during landing...this almost never works
out, and simply not adding more back-pressure is generally sufficient.

Your instructor seems to be commenting on the rote elements, and for the
initial stages of learning this may be appropriate. But long term, you'll
be better served when you can generalize the rote movements of the elevator
control to getting the airplane where you need it to be.

Of course, you may also benefit from following along with your instructor a
few times. Let HIM do the landing, while you just feel where the stick is
during the various points of the flare and landing.

Good luck. Remember, almost every student pilot goes through this. And
frankly, if you've only tried a landing 9 times, you've probably got a lot
more to try before you get it right. :) As far as "landing this thing
perfectly" goes...forget about that. The perfect landings are granted to
you as a boon from the aviation gods, when you least expect it. What you
want are the "acceptable landings", where everyone walks away with their
tailbones intact. :)

Pete

[Bob Gardner]

Just use enough back pressure to put the airplane in a level attitude, then
add incremental pressure as the nose tries to drop. Most of the problems
similar to yours that I have seen have been the result of going from nose
down to nose up with no level segment.

Bob Gardner

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm a new student learning with a DA-20. Got most things mastered
> except for the landings...most important, no? haha
> Seems that most of my landings and I have only tried 9 times thus far
> are not very well executed. My CFI sez that I am doing two things
> wrong:
> 1) I am flaring too late.
> 2) When I flair, I am not quick enough on the stick.
>
> I was thinking about the whole thing and have theroized that my CFI is
> only telling me to flare when he is sure I am not going to do it on my
> own and he wishes to remain alive. And here I am waiting for him to
> tell me when to pull back. It seems that this combination might result
> in a late action everytime. We need to discuss this next trip out.
>
> When it appears that I am at the correct height, I pull back on the
> stick and end up in a float, then I sense the fall and pull back one
> again ending in a bounce or otherwise non-perfect result.
>
> I will return to my CFI for more advice when I get another chance to
> bang up the leased-back airplane, but in the mean time...anyone out
> there have any advice on landing this thing perfectly??
>
> Thanks in advance!
>

[Peter Duniho]

I seem to have made a classic teaching error, by being vague. Doh.

Anyway...what I mean here:

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> [...] Adjust your elevator movements appropriately; pause when it seems
> you may be slowing your descent rate too quickly, speed up a little if it
> seems you're arriving too soon.

By "pause" and "speed up", I am referring to the increase in backpressure
that goes along with the flare. The stick should be moving back in a
continuous, steady movement. "Pause" means momentarily stop the movement of
the stick, while "speed up" means increase the rate at which the stick is
moved back.

I most definitely did not mean to increase one's airspeed when I wrote
"speed up". :) Sorry if there was any confusion.

Pete

[[email protected]]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > I'm a new student learning with a DA-20. Got most things mastered
> > except for the landings...most important, no? haha
> > Seems that most of my landings and I have only tried 9 times thus far
> > are not very well executed. My CFI sez that I am doing two things
> > wrong:
> > 1) I am flaring too late.
> > 2) When I flair, I am not quick enough on the stick.
>
> First, this is a classic problem for students. Second, you will have a lot
> of success posting this in rec.aviation.student.
>
> Third, this thread does come up here as well. One of my favorite
> suggestions, one that is mentioned often and which helped me when I was
> trying to learn to land:
>
> With your instructor, practice NOT landing.

What he said. Find an F-14 pilot and he'll tell you he had the same
problem. Doing your best to break the gear off your first trainer is
the oldest tradition in aviation. You'll get over it in time- maybe two
more hours, maybe ten, everyone's different. The exercise that Peter
suggests is a good one and as a 250-hr instrument pilot I need to take
time every so often to do pattern work or I'll get rusty.

Best,
-cwk.

[greenwavepilot]

After 15 hours in a Katana I was still having trouble landing it. The
key for me was breaking down the process into three steps and calling
those steps out.

On short final:Aim point.
As my aim point moved under me: Level Flight.
As the plane settled: Nose on the Horizon.

It's not easy. Those long wings on the Katana want to keep on flying.
The slick airframe is tough to slow down, and that boom to the tail
makes slips really ineffective (compared to a Cherokee).

Control your airspeed and try NOT to land like others here have
mentioned, and it'll click. 9 landings is really early to be worried.
You'll probably have at least 200 before your checkride.

For a great resource check out Gene Whitt's website. He needs a tip
jar and I need to pay up for all that I have learned there.

GWP

[john smith]

Get some taildragger time so you can learn to fly with the nose up and
on airspeed. The plane will land itself.

[[email protected]]

When I was instructing full time a few years back I found the hardest
think for a student pilot to learn (besides xwind landings) was how to
judge flare height. Too high and your airspeed bleeds off with an
increasing descent rate = a buttbuster of a landing. Too low and you
risk landing on the nosewheel. Ouch. With about 15 hrs in the older
Rotax powered Katana I recall that plane would float forever if your
airspeed in the flare was too high. That plane was essentially an 80hp
ultralight IMHO. The thing to remember is nobody got it nailed after
only 9 landings. Keep at it.


wrote:
> I'm a new student learning with a DA-20. Got most things mastered
> except for the landings...most important, no? haha
> Seems that most of my landings and I have only tried 9 times thus far
> are not very well executed. My CFI sez that I am doing two things
> wrong:
> 1) I am flaring too late.

[Mike Rapoport]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm a new student learning with a DA-20. Got most things mastered
> except for the landings...most important, no? haha
> Seems that most of my landings and I have only tried 9 times thus far
> are not very well executed. My CFI sez that I am doing two things
> wrong:
> 1) I am flaring too late.
> 2) When I flair, I am not quick enough on the stick.
>
> I was thinking about the whole thing and have theroized that my CFI is
> only telling me to flare when he is sure I am not going to do it on my
> own and he wishes to remain alive. And here I am waiting for him to
> tell me when to pull back. It seems that this combination might result
> in a late action everytime. We need to discuss this next trip out.
>
> When it appears that I am at the correct height, I pull back on the
> stick and end up in a float, then I sense the fall and pull back one
> again ending in a bounce or otherwise non-perfect result.
>
> I will return to my CFI for more advice when I get another chance to
> bang up the leased-back airplane, but in the mean time...anyone out
> there have any advice on landing this thing perfectly??
>
> Thanks in advance!
>

If you float then you are too fast. I assume that you are at exactly the
same speed each time on final? Eventually you will be able to make
reasonably good landings from different speeds and descent paths but, in the
beginning, try to minimize the variables.

Mike
MU-2