Neil Lawson of whiteplanes, died yesterday

[2cernauta2]

Dear All,

I hear from my Italian friends at the Junior's WGCs that the famous
soaring photographer Neil Lawson has died yesterday.
He was standing on the roof of his car, to get better pictures of the
finishing gliders. One of those gliders caught him.
The pilot involved is a British team mate, Ian Craigie. He has been
arrested.

Very sad news for the whole gliding world, for his friends and
relatives.

He will be missed

Aldo Cernezzi

[Mal]

Incident at Husbands Bosworth - 9 August 2005
OFFICIAL STATEMENT FROM THE BGA REFERENCE THE INCIDENT YESTERDAY.

On the afternoon of 9 August, there was a collision between a glider
and a man, adjacent to Husbands Bosworth airfield, where the 4th FAI Junior
World Gliding Championships are being held.

The pilot was not physically injured but the other person, a member of
the gliding community, was injured and taken by air ambulance to Queen's
Medical Centre, Nottingham. According to Leicestershire Constabulary, he was
pronounced dead on arrival.

The incident is under investigation by the police and by the
government's Air Accident Investigation Branch. The event organisers and the
British Gliding Association are assisting these teams in their
investigations.

We understand that formal identification of the body has not yet taken
place.

The incident site has been cordoned off by the authorities and, as a
result, flying at the airfield is currently suspended.

Pete Stratten, the BGA Chief Executive said: "Our thoughts are with
everybody affected at this sad time."

[Andy Blackburn]

At 10:06 10 August 2005, 2cernauta2 wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>I hear from my Italian friends at the Junior's WGCs
>that the famous
>soaring photographer Neil Lawson has died yesterday.
>He was standing on the roof of his car, to get better
>pictures of the
>finishing gliders. One of those gliders caught him.
>The pilot involved is a British team mate, Ian Craigie.
>He has been
>arrested.
>
>Very sad news for the whole gliding world, for his
>friends and
>relatives.
>
>He will be missed
>
>Aldo Cernezzi

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/4137234.stm

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/

[John Sinclair]

Yet another finish gate accident.

There is a better way (GPS)

Time to stop living in the past.

Condolences to yet another family,

JJ Sinclair

At 10:06 10 August 2005, 2cernauta2 wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>I hear from my Italian friends at the Junior's WGCs
>that the famous
>soaring photographer Neil Lawson has died yesterday.
>He was standing on the roof of his car, to get better
>pictures of the
>finishing gliders. One of those gliders caught him.
>The pilot involved is a British team mate, Ian Craigie.
>He has been
>arrested.
>
>Very sad news for the whole gliding world, for his
>friends and
>relatives.
>
>He will be missed
>
>Aldo Cernezzi
>

[[email protected]]

What a tragedy.

Neil was THE world best gliding photographer.

Condolenses to his family and friends.

Whilst I never met Neil personally we used to talk online frequently
discussing gliding and photography.

A truely sad day.

Al

[Raphael Warshaw]

In the course of selecting a photo for the poster which advertised the Pilot
Performance Survey at the 2005 SSA convention, I had occasion to correspond
with Mr. Lawson and, when the bank charges for a wire transfer proved more
than the fee for the photo, to speak with him at some length. His knowledge
of our sport was authoritative, his photographs elegant, informative and,
importantly properly archived with complete and appropriate accompanying
information, all qualities that differentiate a consummate professional from
the ranks of the hacks and the amateurs.

A good part of his work will be preserved in "Sailplane and Gliding". Never
the less, there must be many important but unseen images in his archives. I
hope that some way can be found to keep his oeuvre together and accessible
for the sake of his memory and the history of our sport.

Raphael H. Warshaw
Claremont, CA


"Andy Blackburn" > wrote in message
...
> At 10:06 10 August 2005, 2cernauta2 wrote:
>>Dear All,
>>
>>I hear from my Italian friends at the Junior's WGCs
>>that the famous
>>soaring photographer Neil Lawson has died yesterday.
>>He was standing on the roof of his car, to get better
>>pictures of the
>>finishing gliders. One of those gliders caught him.
>>The pilot involved is a British team mate, Ian Craigie.
>>He has been
>>arrested.
>>
>>Very sad news for the whole gliding world, for his
>>friends and
>>relatives.
>>
>>He will be missed
>>
>>Aldo Cernezzi
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/4137234.stm
>
> http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/
>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.

But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest finish at > 50 ft
(per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying of people, man-made
objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with this accident?

By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref groundloop that
hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests, too.

And how do you know it was a finish - it could have been a pre-arranged
photo op after the finish, coordinated between the photographer and the
pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time that has
happened.

Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take a deep breath and
go fix a glider or something.

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

To a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail.

[Tim]

Aldo & Everyone,

While competing at last year's Club Class Worlds in Norway, both Susan
and I got to meet and start to get to know Neil a little bit. Beyond
his terrific skills as an aviation photographer, he was just a "good
bloke" - as the Brits say. He always had a certain "twinkle" in his
eyes whether for the next great photo or the next great party. So raise
a pint for Neil and let's make sure his photos and his memory do not
soon die.

Tim McAllister "EY"

P.S. That was Neil's cover shot on the November 2004 "Soaring" of me
flying a low and fast finish in a Libelle at World's in Norway. I will
treasure that shot forever...

2cernauta2 wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> I hear from my Italian friends at the Junior's WGCs that the famous
> soaring photographer Neil Lawson has died yesterday.
> He was standing on the roof of his car, to get better pictures of the
> finishing gliders. One of those gliders caught him.
> The pilot involved is a British team mate, Ian Craigie. He has been
> arrested.
>
> Very sad news for the whole gliding world, for his friends and
> relatives.
>
> He will be missed
>
> Aldo Cernezzi

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

That is extremely sad news.

Having taken a few soaring photos myself I have long been very impressed
with the high quality of is photos as seen in many Soaring and Sailplane &
Gliding magazines and on his web site.
http://www.whiteplanes.com/

At a contest a few years ago a few pilots did high-speed, low altitude
finishes. I was shooting them through a long lens. It was difficult to
judge distance between us while looking through the lens.

My heartfelt sympathy and prayers to Neil's friends and family and the
glider pilot.

Paul Remde


"2cernauta2" > wrote in message
...
> Dear All,
>
> I hear from my Italian friends at the Junior's WGCs that the famous
> soaring photographer Neil Lawson has died yesterday.
> He was standing on the roof of his car, to get better pictures of the
> finishing gliders. One of those gliders caught him.
> The pilot involved is a British team mate, Ian Craigie. He has been
> arrested.
>
> Very sad news for the whole gliding world, for his friends and
> relatives.
>
> He will be missed
>
> Aldo Cernezzi

[Mal]

From what I was told he was behind a hedge and stood up on top of his
vehicle just as the glider came over the hedge.

We have a minimum finish safety height of 500ft unless you declare a
straight in and a beer can finish radius.

As a avid photographer and pilot I have sympathy for all evolved.

Hanging around aircraft is dangerous enough !

The added danger of distorted vision depth perception when looking through a
view finder and eye focus adjustment as we have been shown can result in
your death.

There are more than 14000 images @ http://www.whiteplanes.com/

RIP Neil Lawson

Mal


"Paul Remde" > wrote in message
news:_3vKe.239714$_o.116348@attbi_s71...
> Hi,
>
> That is extremely sad news.
>
> Having taken a few soaring photos myself I have long been very impressed
> with the high quality of is photos as seen in many Soaring and Sailplane &
> Gliding magazines and on his web site.
> http://www.whiteplanes.com/
>
> At a contest a few years ago a few pilots did high-speed, low altitude
> finishes. I was shooting them through a long lens. It was difficult to
> judge distance between us while looking through the lens.
>
> My heartfelt sympathy and prayers to Neil's friends and family and the
> glider pilot.
>
> Paul Remde
>
>
> "2cernauta2" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I hear from my Italian friends at the Junior's WGCs that the famous
>> soaring photographer Neil Lawson has died yesterday.
>> He was standing on the roof of his car, to get better pictures of the
>> finishing gliders. One of those gliders caught him.
>> The pilot involved is a British team mate, Ian Craigie. He has been
>> arrested.
>>
>> Very sad news for the whole gliding world, for his friends and
>> relatives.
>>
>> He will be missed
>>
>> Aldo Cernezzi
>
>

[JJ Sinclair]

Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing. He also said
the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a homicide. That's
right he was responsible for the death of an innocent bystander. This
tragic loss of life occured because the junior pilot was performing the
prescribed finish maneuver. He was flying the finish gate because
that's what we do, we sanction it, its in our rules.

The local authoraties did their job, they arrested the guy responsible
and the competition was suspended.

How many more finish gate accidents must we endure before this
outmoded, unneccessary and proven unsafe finish gate is abolished and
replaced by the mandatory GPS finish cylinder?

You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't operating his
aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing) and that he wasn't
within 500 feet of a person, do you?

JJ Sinclair

wrote:
> Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
>
> But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest finish at > 50 ft
> (per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying of people, man-made
> objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with this accident?
>
> By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref groundloop that
> hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests, too.
>
> And how do you know it was a finish - it could have been a pre-arranged
> photo op after the finish, coordinated between the photographer and the
> pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time that has
> happened.
>
> Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take a deep breath and
> go fix a glider or something.
>
> Kirk
> 66

[Bruce Hoult]

In article . com>,
"JJ Sinclair" > wrote:

> You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't operating his
> aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing) and that he wasn't
> within 500 feet of a person, do you?

I really don't think you could argue that a touch-and-go or missed
approach to a runway or airfield in active use means that you are "not
in the act of landing".

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[M B]

Crazy idea: how about putting a whistle on the gear
door so when the gear is down it whistles through the
air? Also works
as a gear indicator. I dunno, maybe not a great idea,
but something.

Hmmm...I think about this because in the past year
I had two incidents. One was a person taking photos
just on the edge of a runway, enough so I had to move
to within a foot of the fence on the right to avoid
him. I was in quite a predicament-I could avoid hitting
him and risk injuring myself and a passenger, or hit
him. I avoided him and then had to intentionally ground
loop to avoid ANOTHER pedestrian I had been channeled
in towards. I was too fast to stop safely before him,
and too slow to have excellent rudder control. After
the incident I chewed on him, and then myself. He
agreed to not take pictures anywhere near me again.
I shuddered and promised to scan the runway
better from the back seat and not taxi all the way
to the takeoff spot.

A while later a reporter was covering an event. One
of the glass gliders caught a wingtip on takeoff and
ground looped, with the wing slicing past within three
feet. I was hiding (safely)behind a Ford truck behind
her during the whole event. Not the best view, but
I'm a bit chicken. Not very gallant. She asked me
if I thought soaring was dangerous...

I didn't tell her this, but I thought:
A glider can be a silent scythe of death. It doesn't
have the very loud warning that its piston brothers
has. It is the bitterest irony when those threatened
or injured or killed are the same people who are the
most valuable to our sport.

I'm sorry to hear of this tragedy. I hope we can avoid
this in the future. I don't have a pat answer, but
I hope glider pilots reading this will discuss this
incident at their gliderports.

At 02:30 11 August 2005, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>In article ,
> 'JJ Sinclair' wrote:
>
>> You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't
>>operating his
>> aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing)
>>and that he wasn't
>> within 500 feet of a person, do you?
>
>I really don't think you could argue that a touch-and-go
>or missed
>approach to a runway or airfield in active use means
>that you are 'not
>in the act of landing'.
>
>--
>Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
>Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------
>
Mark J. Boyd

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
M B > wrote:

> Crazy idea: how about putting a whistle on the gear door so when the
> gear is down it whistles through the air? Also works as a gear
> indicator. I dunno, maybe not a great idea, but something.

As you sugesting that he didn't know the glider was there? Becuase if
not then that suggestion is pretty irelevant to this tragedy.

I don't think you get pics such as the following by not knowing that the
glider is there:

http://www.whiteplanes.com/gliders/gliders23.htm

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[Jeremy Hood]

JJ, You are clearly a total moron. I emailed you personally
about this subject, yet you persist in your irresponsible,
innaccurate, and sensationalist cr@p. You have no idea
what you are talking about. Do us all a favour and
shut up.



At 01:54 11 August 2005, Jj Sinclair wrote:
>
>Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing.
>He also said
>the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a
>homicide. That's
>right he was responsible for the death of an innocent
>bystander. This
>tragic loss of life occured because the junior pilot
>was performing the
>prescribed finish maneuver. He was flying the finish
>gate because
>that's what we do, we sanction it, its in our rules.
>
>The local authoraties did their job, they arrested
>the guy responsible
>and the competition was suspended.
>
>How many more finish gate accidents must we endure
>before this
>outmoded, unneccessary and proven unsafe finish gate
>is abolished and
>replaced by the mandatory GPS finish cylinder?
>
>You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't
>operating his
>aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing)
>and that he wasn't
>within 500 feet of a person, do you?
>
>JJ Sinclair
>
wrote:
>> Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
>>
>> But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest
>>finish at > 50 ft
>> (per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying
>>of people, man-made
>> objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with
>>this accident?
>>
>> By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref
>>groundloop that
>> hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests,
>>too.
>>
>> And how do you know it was a finish - it could have
>>been a pre-arranged
>> photo op after the finish, coordinated between the
>>photographer and the
>> pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time
>>that has
>> happened.
>>
>> Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take
>>a deep breath and
>> go fix a glider or something.
>>
>> Kirk
>> 66
>
>

[Toby Wright]

Jj,

given that;

a/ the tragedy happened less than 48 hours ago
b/ you werent there and know none of the facts
c/ you have only heard the vague details from somebody
who wasnt there, who heard from somebody else..

why dont you have a bit of tact, do us all a favour,
and as we say in the UK..

Wind your neck in !

There will be a full accident investigation report
into this tragedy, once thats published, perhaps then
you might consider it to be a more approriate time
to forward your views...

Now lets drop this until the investigation has been
completed and show at least some respect to Neil, and
those left grieving!

Toby

At 01:54 11 August 2005, Jj Sinclair wrote:
>
>Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing.
>He also said
>the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a
>homicide. That's
>right he was responsible for the death of an innocent
>bystander. This
>tragic loss of life occured because the junior pilot
>was performing the
>prescribed finish maneuver. He was flying the finish
>gate because
>that's what we do, we sanction it, its in our rules.
>
>The local authoraties did their job, they arrested
>the guy responsible
>and the competition was suspended.
>
>How many more finish gate accidents must we endure
>before this
>outmoded, unneccessary and proven unsafe finish gate
>is abolished and
>replaced by the mandatory GPS finish cylinder?
>
>You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't
>operating his
>aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing)
>and that he wasn't
>within 500 feet of a person, do you?
>
>JJ Sinclair
>
wrote:
>> Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
>>
>> But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest
>>finish at > 50 ft
>> (per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying
>>of people, man-made
>> objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with
>>this accident?
>>
>> By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref
>>groundloop that
>> hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests,
>>too.
>>
>> And how do you know it was a finish - it could have
>>been a pre-arranged
>> photo op after the finish, coordinated between the
>>photographer and the
>> pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time
>>that has
>> happened.
>>
>> Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take
>>a deep breath and
>> go fix a glider or something.
>>
>> Kirk
>> 66
>
>

[Paul Bramley]

This is terrible news. I knew Neil well - he always
had time for a chat and I marvelled at his skill with
a camera. The week we had in Jaca was the most fun
I've had on a gliding holiday - largely because we
had such a good laugh over a 'Pacharan' or four....every
night.
He'll be sorely missed but he leaves an incomparable
legacy.

Paul






At 15:30 10 August 2005, wrote:
>What a tragedy.
>
>Neil was THE world best gliding photographer.
>
>Condolenses to his family and friends.
>
>Whilst I never met Neil personally we used to talk
>online frequently
>discussing gliding and photography.
>
>A truely sad day.
>
>Al
>
>

[Stefan]

JJ Sinclair wrote:

> Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing. He also said
> the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a homicide. That's
> right he was responsible for the death of an innocent bystander.

No. This wasn't an "innocent bystander". This was a well informed
insider, who knew exactly what he was doing and deliberately decided to
take the well known risk.

Every accident is a very sad thing, of course, but the truth is the truth.

Stefan

[Gary Evans]

How could anyone persist after receiving a PERSONAL
E-mail. How rude and inconsiderate. Perhaps he doesn't
know who you are or maybe he just doesn't care but
you could avoid all of your suffering by choosing,
which authors posts you open.




At 08:36 11 August 2005, Jeremy Hood wrote:
>JJ, You are clearly a total moron. I emailed you personally
>about this subject, yet you persist in your irresponsible,
>innaccurate, and sensationalist cr@p. You have no idea
>what you are talking about. Do us all a favour and
>shut up.
>
>
>
>At 01:54 11 August 2005, Jj Sinclair wrote:
>>
>>Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing.
>>He also said
>>the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a
>>homicide. That's
>>right he was responsible for the death of an innocent
>>bystander. This
>>tragic loss of life occured because the junior pilot
>>was performing the
>>prescribed finish maneuver. He was flying the finish
>>gate because
>>that's what we do, we sanction it, its in our rules.
>>
>>The local authoraties did their job, they arrested
>>the guy responsible
>>and the competition was suspended.
>>
>>How many more finish gate accidents must we endure
>>before this
>>outmoded, unneccessary and proven unsafe finish gate
>>is abolished and
>>replaced by the mandatory GPS finish cylinder?
>>
>>You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't
>>operating his
>>aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing)
>>and that he wasn't
>>within 500 feet of a person, do you?
>>
>>JJ Sinclair
>>
wrote:
>>> Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
>>>
>>> But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest
>>>finish at > 50 ft
>>> (per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying
>>>of people, man-made
>>> objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with
>>>this accident?
>>>
>>> By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref
>>>groundloop that
>>> hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests,
>>>too.
>>>
>>> And how do you know it was a finish - it could have
>>>been a pre-arranged
>>> photo op after the finish, coordinated between the
>>>photographer and the
>>> pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time
>>>that has
>>> happened.
>>>
>>> Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take
>>>a deep breath and
>>> go fix a glider or something.
>>>
>>> Kirk
>>> 66
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[John Sinclair]

Jeremy,
I stand ready to discuss a serious problem that exists
in sailplane racing, just as soon as you can control
your emotions enough to stop hurling insults. Your
posting on ras is mild compared to the torrent of abuse
you used in your private E-mail to me.

I know this isn't the best time to discuss this, but
tell me just when is the best time to take action to
prevent the next needless tragidy?

JJ Sinclair

At 08:36 11 August 2005, Jeremy Hood wrote:
>JJ, You are clearly a total moron. I emailed you personally
>about this subject, yet you persist in your irresponsible,
>innaccurate, and sensationalist cr@p. You have no idea
>what you are talking about. Do us all a favour and
>shut up.
>
>
>
>At 01:54 11 August 2005, Jj Sinclair wrote:
>>
>>Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing.
>>He also said
>>the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a
>>homicide. That's
>>right he was responsible for the death of an innocent
>>bystander. This
>>tragic loss of life occured because the junior pilot
>>was performing the
>>prescribed finish maneuver. He was flying the finish
>>gate because
>>that's what we do, we sanction it, its in our rules.
>>
>>The local authoraties did their job, they arrested
>>the guy responsible
>>and the competition was suspended.
>>
>>How many more finish gate accidents must we endure
>>before this
>>outmoded, unneccessary and proven unsafe finish gate
>>is abolished and
>>replaced by the mandatory GPS finish cylinder?
>>
>>You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't
>>operating his
>>aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing)
>>and that he wasn't
>>within 500 feet of a person, do you?
>>
>>JJ Sinclair
>>
wrote:
>>> Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
>>>
>>> But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest
>>>finish at > 50 ft
>>> (per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying
>>>of people, man-made
>>> objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with
>>>this accident?
>>>
>>> By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref
>>>groundloop that
>>> hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests,
>>>too.
>>>
>>> And how do you know it was a finish - it could have
>>>been a pre-arranged
>>> photo op after the finish, coordinated between the
>>>photographer and the
>>> pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time
>>>that has
>>> happened.
>>>
>>> Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take
>>>a deep breath and
>>> go fix a glider or something.
>>>
>>> Kirk
>>> 66
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Bob]

On 11 Aug 2005 16:53:01 GMT, John Sinclair
> wrote:

>Jeremy,
>I stand ready to discuss a serious problem that exists
>in sailplane racing, just as soon as you can control
>your emotions enough to stop hurling insults. Your
>posting on ras is mild compared to the torrent of abuse
>you used in your private E-mail to me.
>
>I know this isn't the best time to discuss this, but
>tell me just when is the best time to take action to
>prevent the next needless tragidy?

After the facts of the incident are know. Not when you are
speculating on the causes.
>
>JJ Sinclair
>
>At 08:36 11 August 2005, Jeremy Hood wrote:
>>JJ, You are clearly a total moron. I emailed you personally
>>about this subject, yet you persist in your irresponsible,
>>innaccurate, and sensationalist cr@p. You have no idea
>>what you are talking about. Do us all a favour and
>>shut up.
>>
>>
>>
>>At 01:54 11 August 2005, Jj Sinclair wrote:
>>>
>>>Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing.
>>>He also said
>>>the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a
>>>homicide. That's
>>>right he was responsible for the death of an innocent
>>>bystander. This
>>>tragic loss of life occured because the junior pilot
>>>was performing the
>>>prescribed finish maneuver. He was flying the finish
>>>gate because
>>>that's what we do, we sanction it, its in our rules.
>>>
>>>The local authoraties did their job, they arrested
>>>the guy responsible
>>>and the competition was suspended.
>>>
>>>How many more finish gate accidents must we endure
>>>before this
>>>outmoded, unneccessary and proven unsafe finish gate
>>>is abolished and
>>>replaced by the mandatory GPS finish cylinder?
>>>
>>>You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't
>>>operating his
>>>aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing)
>>>and that he wasn't
>>>within 500 feet of a person, do you?
>>>
>>>JJ Sinclair
>>>
wrote:
>>>> Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
>>>>
>>>> But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest
>>>>finish at > 50 ft
>>>> (per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying
>>>>of people, man-made
>>>> objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with
>>>>this accident?
>>>>
>>>> By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref
>>>>groundloop that
>>>> hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests,
>>>>too.
>>>>
>>>> And how do you know it was a finish - it could have
>>>>been a pre-arranged
>>>> photo op after the finish, coordinated between the
>>>>photographer and the
>>>> pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time
>>>>that has
>>>> happened.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take
>>>>a deep breath and
>>>> go fix a glider or something.
>>>>
>>>> Kirk
>>>> 66
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[[email protected]]

That really makes me want to pay attention to an intellectual such as
yourself.

[Nick Gilbert]

Likewise with your post Gary.

What are you adding to the discussion apart from being sarcastic toward
a someone who has clearly just lost a close friend?

Nick.

[[email protected]]

No sarcasm intended but calling people names never really solved any
problems or furthered intelligent discussion

[[email protected]]

And by the way, this is one reason I rarely respond to any postings on
RAS

[Don Johnstone]

This event is 'sub judice' and is being investigated
by the police and the AIB on behalf of HM Coroner.
In view of the serious nature of the event and the
tragic consequences I would urge everyone to think
of the wisdom of comment until the facts are known,
and they will be in due course.
I feel that it is inappropriate for people to be exchanging
personal insults at any time but especially now.
Can we please all agree that everyone has an opinion
but for the time being it may be best that such opinions
are not publicly expressed.


At 17:36 11 August 2005, Bob wrote:
>On 11 Aug 2005 16:53:01 GMT, John Sinclair
> wrote:
>
>>Jeremy,
>>I stand ready to discuss a serious problem that exists
>>in sailplane racing, just as soon as you can control
>>your emotions enough to stop hurling insults. Your
>>posting on ras is mild compared to the torrent of abuse
>>you used in your private E-mail to me.
>>
>>I know this isn't the best time to discuss this, but
>>tell me just when is the best time to take action to
>>prevent the next needless tragidy?
>
>After the facts of the incident are know. Not when
>you are
>speculating on the causes.
>>
>>JJ Sinclair
>>
>>At 08:36 11 August 2005, Jeremy Hood wrote:
>>>JJ, You are clearly a total moron. I emailed you personally
>>>about this subject, yet you persist in your irresponsible,
>>>innaccurate, and sensationalist cr@p. You have no idea
>>>what you are talking about. Do us all a favour and
>>>shut up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>At 01:54 11 August 2005, Jj Sinclair wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing.
>>>>He also said
>>>>the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a
>>>>homicide. That's
>>>>right he was responsible for the death of an innocent
>>>>bystander. This
>>>>tragic loss of life occured because the junior pilot
>>>>was performing the
>>>>prescribed finish maneuver. He was flying the finish
>>>>gate because
>>>>that's what we do, we sanction it, its in our rules.
>>>>
>>>>The local authoraties did their job, they arrested
>>>>the guy responsible
>>>>and the competition was suspended.
>>>>
>>>>How many more finish gate accidents must we endure
>>>>before this
>>>>outmoded, unneccessary and proven unsafe finish gate
>>>>is abolished and
>>>>replaced by the mandatory GPS finish cylinder?
>>>>
>>>>You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't
>>>>operating his
>>>>aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing)
>>>>and that he wasn't
>>>>within 500 feet of a person, do you?
>>>>
>>>>JJ Sinclair
>>>>
wrote:
>>>>> Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest
>>>>>finish at > 50 ft
>>>>> (per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying
>>>>>of people, man-made
>>>>> objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with
>>>>>this accident?
>>>>>
>>>>> By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref
>>>>>groundloop that
>>>>> hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests,
>>>>>too.
>>>>>
>>>>> And how do you know it was a finish - it could have
>>>>>been a pre-arranged
>>>>> photo op after the finish, coordinated between the
>>>>>photographer and the
>>>>> pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time
>>>>>that has
>>>>> happened.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take
>>>>>a deep breath and
>>>>> go fix a glider or something.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kirk
>>>>> 66
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[M B]

This suggestion perhaps doesn't have relevance for
this particular accident. Your point is taken, and
you are right. I don't know if in this particular
case he was intending to photo the glider that hit
him or a different photo.

I think I was just expressing some helplessness that
this kind of thing happens at all, and trying to feel
like there is something I could contribute that might
help, even if it wasn't a good suggestion...

But yes, Bruce, I see your point, and may have strayed
off topic.

My God, though, the man took some astonishingly great
photos...thank you for the link.

At 06:00 11 August 2005, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>In article ,
> M B wrote:
>
>> Crazy idea: how about putting a whistle on the gear
>>door so when the
>> gear is down it whistles through the air? Also works
>>as a gear
>> indicator. I dunno, maybe not a great idea, but something.
>
>As you sugesting that he didn't know the glider was
>there? Becuase if
>not then that suggestion is pretty irelevant to this
>tragedy.
>
>I don't think you get pics such as the following by
>not knowing that the
>glider is there:
>
>http://www.whiteplanes.com/gliders/gliders23.htm
>
>--
>Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
>Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------
>
Mark J. Boyd

[Jeremy Hood]

What got me so angry was you stupid, insensitive posting,
not the underlying issue that you feel is present in
gliding. Have a clue man: a tragic accident occurs
which affects many in the gliding world, and you wait
all of 12 hours to start sounding off with you own
personal agenda.

I don't feel I was hurling insults, but placing them
where they are most definately needed. By the way,
for the record, here is my private email to you, which
I stand by, so all can judge the 'torrent of abuse'
I gave you:

'John,

How dare you use the very tragic news of the Junior
worlds accident to further illustrate your own personal
views on finish lines. I find your posting completely
insensitive, very poorly timed, and judged. You don't
know what actually happened, as you were not there-
so why bother with the posting at all? I am actually
disgusted with you- next time think about what you're
saying.


Jez Hood'


Now I'm just disappointed with you.



At 16:54 11 August 2005, John Sinclair wrote:
>Jeremy,
>I stand ready to discuss a serious problem that exists
>in sailplane racing, just as soon as you can control
>your emotions enough to stop hurling insults. Your
>posting on ras is mild compared to the torrent of abuse
>you used in your private E-mail to me.
>
>I know this isn't the best time to discuss this, but
>tell me just when is the best time to take action to
>prevent the next needless tragidy?
>
>JJ Sinclair
>
>At 08:36 11 August 2005, Jeremy Hood wrote:
>>JJ, You are clearly a total moron. I emailed you personally
>>about this subject, yet you persist in your irresponsible,
>>innaccurate, and sensationalist cr@p. You have no idea
>>what you are talking about. Do us all a favour and
>>shut up.
>>
>>
>>
>>At 01:54 11 August 2005, Jj Sinclair wrote:
>>>
>>>Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing.
>>>He also said
>>>the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a
>>>homicide. That's
>>>right he was responsible for the death of an innocent
>>>bystander. This
>>>tragic loss of life occured because the junior pilot
>>>was performing the
>>>prescribed finish maneuver. He was flying the finish
>>>gate because
>>>that's what we do, we sanction it, its in our rules.
>>>
>>>The local authoraties did their job, they arrested
>>>the guy responsible
>>>and the competition was suspended.
>>>
>>>How many more finish gate accidents must we endure
>>>before this
>>>outmoded, unneccessary and proven unsafe finish gate
>>>is abolished and
>>>replaced by the mandatory GPS finish cylinder?
>>>
>>>You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't
>>>operating his
>>>aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing)
>>>and that he wasn't
>>>within 500 feet of a person, do you?
>>>
>>>JJ Sinclair
>>>
wrote:
>>>> Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
>>>>
>>>> But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest
>>>>finish at > 50 ft
>>>> (per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying
>>>>of people, man-made
>>>> objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with
>>>>this accident?
>>>>
>>>> By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref
>>>>groundloop that
>>>> hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests,
>>>>too.
>>>>
>>>> And how do you know it was a finish - it could have
>>>>been a pre-arranged
>>>> photo op after the finish, coordinated between the
>>>>photographer and the
>>>> pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time
>>>>that has
>>>> happened.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take
>>>>a deep breath and
>>>> go fix a glider or something.
>>>>
>>>> Kirk
>>>> 66
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Andrew Warbrick]

I'd just like to add that I'm sure a lot more of us
are thinking what Jeremy is saying. As he is the current
Junior World Champion, I for one think he's the right
one to say it.

At 09:00 12 August 2005, Jeremy Hood wrote:
>What got me so angry was you stupid, insensitive posting,
>not the underlying issue that you feel is present in
>gliding. Have a clue man: a tragic accident occurs
>which affects many in the gliding world, and you wait
>all of 12 hours to start sounding off with you own
>personal agenda.
>
>I don't feel I was hurling insults, but placing them
>where they are most definately needed. By the way,
>for the record, here is my private email to you, which
>I stand by, so all can judge the 'torrent of abuse'
>I gave you:
>
>'John,
>
>How dare you use the very tragic news of the Junior
>worlds accident to further illustrate your own personal
>views on finish lines. I find your posting completely
>insensitive, very poorly timed, and judged. You don't
>know what actually happened, as you were not there-
> so why bother with the posting at all? I am actually
>disgusted with you- next time think about what you're
>saying.
>
>
>Jez Hood'
>
>
>Now I'm just disappointed with you.
>
>
>
>At 16:54 11 August 2005, John Sinclair wrote:
>>Jeremy,
>>I stand ready to discuss a serious problem that exists
>>in sailplane racing, just as soon as you can control
>>your emotions enough to stop hurling insults. Your
>>posting on ras is mild compared to the torrent of abuse
>>you used in your private E-mail to me.
>>
>>I know this isn't the best time to discuss this, but
>>tell me just when is the best time to take action to
>>prevent the next needless tragidy?
>>
>>JJ Sinclair
>>
>>At 08:36 11 August 2005, Jeremy Hood wrote:
>>>JJ, You are clearly a total moron. I emailed you personally
>>>about this subject, yet you persist in your irresponsible,
>>>innaccurate, and sensationalist cr@p. You have no idea
>>>what you are talking about. Do us all a favour and
>>>shut up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>At 01:54 11 August 2005, Jj Sinclair wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing.
>>>>He also said
>>>>the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a
>>>>homicide. That's
>>>>right he was responsible for the death of an innocent
>>>>bystander. This
>>>>tragic loss of life occured because the junior pilot
>>>>was performing the
>>>>prescribed finish maneuver. He was flying the finish
>>>>gate because
>>>>that's what we do, we sanction it, its in our rules.
>>>>
>>>>The local authoraties did their job, they arrested
>>>>the guy responsible
>>>>and the competition was suspended.
>>>>
>>>>How many more finish gate accidents must we endure
>>>>before this
>>>>outmoded, unneccessary and proven unsafe finish gate
>>>>is abolished and
>>>>replaced by the mandatory GPS finish cylinder?
>>>>
>>>>You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't
>>>>operating his
>>>>aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing)
>>>>and that he wasn't
>>>>within 500 feet of a person, do you?
>>>>
>>>>JJ Sinclair
>>>>
wrote:
>>>>> Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, JJ, tell me how a correctly performed contest
>>>>>finish at > 50 ft
>>>>> (per current SRA rules) and per FARs (no overflying
>>>>>of people, man-made
>>>>> objects, reckless, etc) has direct relevance with
>>>>>this accident?
>>>>>
>>>>> By your logic, takeoffs should be done away with (ref
>>>>>groundloop that
>>>>> hit and injured spectator at Tonopah) at contests,
>>>>>too.
>>>>>
>>>>> And how do you know it was a finish - it could have
>>>>>been a pre-arranged
>>>>> photo op after the finish, coordinated between the
>>>>>photographer and the
>>>>> pilot - that went horribly wrong. Not the first time
>>>>>that has
>>>>> happened.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, you are on the wrong soapbox this time. Take
>>>>>a deep breath and
>>>>> go fix a glider or something.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kirk
>>>>> 66
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

I also sent a private email, 17 minutes after JJ's original posting and
before any replies appeared on RAS. I said:

"JJ,

"For goodness sake stop it.

"You know as well as I do that the AAIB and the BGA acting together (which
they do) investigate and report accidents very thoroughly.

"PLEASE wait until we have the report.

"Regards,

"Bill."

This is his reply, 50 minutes after the original posting:

"Not much to investigate here, Bill. The pilot flew his ship into a
spectator. In the US he would be in violation of FAR's, ie, flew within 500
feet of a person, place or thing.

"I realize its in poor taste to drive a point home while the guy is still
warm, but its also in very poor taste to keep killing innocent people by
using a proven unsafe finish system.

"JJ"

When JJ says "Not much to investigate here," this surely tells us all we
need to know about JJ.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Jeremy Hood" >
> wrote in message ...
>
> What got me so angry was you stupid, insensitive posting,
> not the underlying issue that you feel is present in
> gliding. Have a clue man: a tragic accident occurs
> which affects many in the gliding world, and you wait
> all of 12 hours to start sounding off with you own
> personal agenda.
>
> I don't feel I was hurling insults, but placing them
> where they are most definitely needed. By the way,
> for the record, here is my private email to you, which
> I stand by, so all can judge the 'torrent of abuse'
> I gave you:
>
> 'John,
>
> How dare you use the very tragic news of the Junior
> worlds accident to further illustrate your own personal
> views on finish lines. I find your posting completely
> insensitive, very poorly timed, and judged. You don't
> know what actually happened, as you were not there-
> so why bother with the posting at all? I am actually
> disgusted with you- next time think about what you're
> saying.
>
> Jez Hood'
>
> Now I'm just disappointed with you.
>

[[email protected]]

<<When JJ says "Not much to investigate here," this surely tells us all
we need to know about JJ.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).>>

Bill,

I agree with you and Jez Hood about the way this incident has been
discussed. My only quarrel would be with "this tells us all we need to
know about JJ." It's more complicated.

I know JJ from the competition circuit here in the U.S. and from his
RAS postings and other communications. He justifiably enjoys the
respect of many. I suspect that his reaction, although--in my
view--inappropriate, is based on personal conviction. I don't agree
with his position on finish lines vs. cylinders but that't not the
point. The issue is how we deal with situations before all the facts,
or should I say sufficient facts, are available.

We saw the same thing a few years ago when the SSA's Larry Sanderson
was pilloried in RAS for alleged misdeeds. Certain pilots decided
"where there's smoke, there's fire" and made it their personal agenda
to run Larry out of office with accusations and allegations stated as
fact. They justified what we would otherwise refer to as "vigilante
justice" (i.e., the practice in our Wild West days of citizen
groups--mobs--acting as judge, jury, and executioner) by saying they
"just knew" he was a crook. I didn't try to defend Larry; I merely
tried to persuade people that it was unfair--"un-American"--to
pre-judge someone. Based on private emails I received, I was successful
in some cases but a disheartening number of pilots I otherwise respect
behaved dangerously and dishonorably. Some appeared incapable of
understanding the distinction between defending someone blindly and
defending the concept of due process.

Soaring pilots are generally fine people. But as we see occasionally,
we are probably no different than any other segment of the population.
We can be just as prejudiced, biased, headstrong, narrowminded, and
prone to rush to judgment as any other group of people who share a
common interest.

Chip Bearden

[Greg Arnold]

This post reminds me that we have gone a year or two without Larry
Sanderson's name appearing in RAS. Without trying to relive that
matter, it should be noted that Sanderson was not being tried in a court
of law, but instead was an employee who never addressed (as far as I
know) certain serious allegations. In an employment situation it is not
"unfair--"un-American"--to pre-judge someone" -- instead, the employee
has the burden of proving the allegations false. If he can't do that,
he normally would be terminated. "Vigilante justice" has nothing to do
with it.


wrote:
> <<When JJ says "Not much to investigate here," this surely tells us all
> we need to know about JJ.
>
> W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).>>
>
> Bill,
>
> I agree with you and Jez Hood about the way this incident has been
> discussed. My only quarrel would be with "this tells us all we need to
> know about JJ." It's more complicated.
>
> I know JJ from the competition circuit here in the U.S. and from his
> RAS postings and other communications. He justifiably enjoys the
> respect of many. I suspect that his reaction, although--in my
> view--inappropriate, is based on personal conviction. I don't agree
> with his position on finish lines vs. cylinders but that't not the
> point. The issue is how we deal with situations before all the facts,
> or should I say sufficient facts, are available.
>
> We saw the same thing a few years ago when the SSA's Larry Sanderson
> was pilloried in RAS for alleged misdeeds. Certain pilots decided
> "where there's smoke, there's fire" and made it their personal agenda
> to run Larry out of office with accusations and allegations stated as
> fact. They justified what we would otherwise refer to as "vigilante
> justice" (i.e., the practice in our Wild West days of citizen
> groups--mobs--acting as judge, jury, and executioner) by saying they
> "just knew" he was a crook. I didn't try to defend Larry; I merely
> tried to persuade people that it was unfair--"un-American"--to
> pre-judge someone. Based on private emails I received, I was successful
> in some cases but a disheartening number of pilots I otherwise respect
> behaved dangerously and dishonorably. Some appeared incapable of
> understanding the distinction between defending someone blindly and
> defending the concept of due process.
>
> Soaring pilots are generally fine people. But as we see occasionally,
> we are probably no different than any other segment of the population.
> We can be just as prejudiced, biased, headstrong, narrowminded, and
> prone to rush to judgment as any other group of people who share a
> common interest.
>
> Chip Bearden
>

[John Sinclair]

Jeremy, Andrew & Bill,
Your remarks are clearly aimed at discrediting me and
my views on how we should finish a sailplane race.
I note that none of you accepted my offer to discuss
a serious problem that exists in sailplane racing today.

Many of us here in the US have been waging a 5-year
campaign to abolish the Finish Gate and go exclusively
with the Finish Cylinder (500 feet & 1 mile) centered
on the runway. We have had numerous Finish Gate accidents,
including fatalities over the years. We feel its time
for a change. Your recent tragic accident just renewed
the controversy.

Yes, I ask the hard questions. I believe someone should.

JJ Sinclair

[[email protected]]

Greg,

Your parenthetical "as far as I know" is sufficient to illustrate my
point. None of us did know, including at least one SSA director who
popped off without thinking clearly (and who later, to his credit,
reconsidered his action). I will offer that the SSA Executive Committee
handled the situation poorly at the time and exacerbated the loss of
confidence in due process. But that's hardly the case with the Neil
Lawson accident investigation.

However, in a classic example of how far apart some of us really are,
you provide additional fuel for the fire by stating that if an employee
cannot prove an allegation false, he/she would (should?) be terminated.
Thankfully neither most employers, most employees, nor the U.S. legal
system share your view. Denouncing someone to finish their career may
have been common in the Soviet era but the lines at U.S. employment
offices would be much, much longer if that were the situation here
today. :)

Chip Bearden

[[email protected]]

JJ,

Keep asking the hard questions (even though I think you're wrong about
the whole finish gate/cylinder debate).

But for the moment, I respectfully suggest that you limit yourself to
questions. Seizing upon this tragic incident without knowing what
really happened serves neither you nor your cause.

Chip Bearden

[Andrew Warbrick]

At 16:42 12 August 2005, John Sinclair wrote:
>Jeremy, Andrew & Bill,
>Your remarks are clearly aimed at discrediting me and
>my views on how we should finish a sailplane race.

On the contrary, I personally keep an open mind on
the matter of whether we should change the finish line
system.

I am agreeing with the sentiment that we find it distasteful
that you have jumped on this incident to further your
agenda before all the facts are in the open, and, no
I don't know what happened, I wasn't there, were you?

>I note that none of you accepted my offer to discuss
>a serious problem that exists in sailplane racing today.
>

Precisely because:

1. Now is most certainly not the time.
2. RAS is not the place, the FAI and local competition
committees are the appropriate place.

>Many of us here in the US have been waging a 5-year
>campaign to abolish the Finish Gate and go exclusively
>with the Finish Cylinder (500 feet & 1 mile) centered
>on the runway. We have had numerous Finish Gate accidents,
>including fatalities over the years. We feel its time
>for a change. Your recent tragic accident just renewed
>the controversy.
>
>Yes, I ask the hard questions. I believe someone should.
>
>JJ Sinclair
>
>
>
>

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

JJ,

I am not expressing any opinion about sailplane race finish methods, or
about finish gate accidents; nor is Jeremy.

What he and I both object to is for you to use the accident at Husbands
Bosworth on 9th August to support your argument before anyone knows the full
story.

WAIT FOR THE REPORT.

Your methods of debate, using rumour and partial second hand reports,
discredit your opinions.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "John Sinclair" >
> wrote in message ...
>
> Jeremy, Andrew & Bill,
>
> Your remarks are clearly aimed at discrediting me and
> my views on how we should finish a sailplane race.
> I note that none of you accepted my offer to discuss
> a serious problem that exists in sailplane racing today.
>
> Many of us here in the US have been waging a 5-year
> campaign to abolish the Finish Gate and go exclusively
> with the Finish Cylinder (500 feet & 1 mile) centered
> on the runway. We have had numerous Finish Gate accidents,
> including fatalities over the years. We feel its time
> for a change. Your recent tragic accident just renewed
> the controversy.
>
> Yes, I ask the hard questions. I believe someone should.
>
> JJ Sinclair
>

[Gary Evans]

If all competition were held away from spectators and
other potential traffic then the participants should
be able to decide for themselves if the risks are worth
the rewards. Since however that is normally not the
case, at least not here where public airports are often
used and spectators are encourged, just letting the
FAI and local competition committees make the call
would work about as well as the ball clubs and their
governing bodies have handled the doping problem here
in the US.


At 17:12 12 August 2005, Andrew Warbrick wrote:
>At 16:42 12 August 2005, John Sinclair wrote:
>>Jeremy, Andrew & Bill,
>>Your remarks are clearly aimed at discrediting me and
>>my views on how we should finish a sailplane race.
>
>On the contrary, I personally keep an open mind on
>the matter of whether we should change the finish line
>system.
>
>I am agreeing with the sentiment that we find it distasteful
>that you have jumped on this incident to further your
>agenda before all the facts are in the open, and, no
>I don't know what happened, I wasn't there, were you?
>
>>I note that none of you accepted my offer to discuss
>>a serious problem that exists in sailplane racing today.
>>
>
>Precisely because:
>
>1. Now is most certainly not the time.
>2. RAS is not the place, the FAI and local competition
>committees are the appropriate place.
>
>>Many of us here in the US have been waging a 5-year
>>campaign to abolish the Finish Gate and go exclusively
>>with the Finish Cylinder (500 feet & 1 mile) centered
>>on the runway. We have had numerous Finish Gate accidents,
>>including fatalities over the years. We feel its time
>>for a change. Your recent tragic accident just renewed
>>the controversy.
>>
>>Yes, I ask the hard questions. I believe someone should.
>>
>>JJ Sinclair
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Ian Johnston]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:20:54 UTC, John Sinclair
> wrote:

: There is a better way (GPS)
:
: Time to stop living in the past.

I have never been able to see how beat ups and competition finishes
squared up with Article 5 of the ANO, myself.

Ian

--

[Ian Johnston]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:25:34 UTC, Bruce Hoult > wrote:

: In article . com>,
: "JJ Sinclair" > wrote:
:
: > You really don't want to argue that the pilot wasn't operating his
: > aircraft below 500 feet (not in the act of landing) and that he wasn't
: > within 500 feet of a person, do you?
:
: I really don't think you could argue that a touch-and-go or missed
: approach to a runway or airfield in active use means that you are "not
: in the act of landing".

If all the competition finishes and beat up I have seen were "missed
approaches", some serious retraining is needed in the competition
pilot community.

Ian

[Steve Leslie]

As both a keen amateur photographer and a glider pilot,
I am sure that I am as deeply saddened as anyone else,
to learn of the tragic death of Neil Lawson.

I did not know Neil personally, but his work was surely
an inspiration to the whole gliding community - with
apologies to other photographers, almost every published
photograph I have seen of a glider held the caption,
'The White Planes Picture Company'. Neil’s pictures
were certainly an inspiration to me as a photographer.

Neil Lawson had the dream job, he spent his time travelling
all over the world taking photos of aeroplanes and
gliders, it is what he lived, and ultimately died,
for. His images of our sport, however, will live for
many years to come.

I know only what I have read here and in the national
press about the circumstances surrounding his death,
so I will say just that he knew, as much as we all
know, that we partake in a sport which carries with
it the risk of accident. Neil was always prepared to
do what was needed to get the best possible pictures;
it is what he did for a living, and is what differentiated
his images from those of almost every other photographer
at gliding events. Last Tuesday evening, he found himself
in the wrong place at the wrong time, and for that
he paid the ultimate price.

I have read many comments on this forum about competition
finishes, and I shall leave the discussions about gates,
areas and cylinders to those who are more experienced
pilots than I, but the image of gliding in the wider
community is surely at stake here. Our friends and
families hardly hear about the British World Champions
- what they do hear about is the fatal accidents (type
'glider' or 'gliding' into the BBC News website search
if further proof be needed).

I am sure there must be a way of keeping the 'fun'
and excitement in competition gliding, whether that
is for competitors, spectators or photographers, without
risking any more lives to accidents such as this tragic
event.

The work of Neil Lawson was possibly world gliding's
greatest advertisement.

May he rest in peace.

Steve.

[[email protected]]

There's a critical difference between asking "Why?", and declaring "I
KNOW WHY!" based on third hand information.

[Pete Masson]

I am now getting deeply upset by this and other similar
threads. Please everyone just stop them now - if you
can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.
If you have kind words or memories to share, please
continue to do so.

Neil was my best friend and most dedicated crew, and
I have been most honoured over the years to work with
him on many of his fantastic photographic exploits,
as well as sharing much wine, beer and fun with him.
Everyone knows him for his photos, but those who have
met him will remember him for his incredibly friendly,
helpful and passionate nature. It's fair to say that
I've never met anyone with such an ability to make
new friends wherever he went.

I have just spent the last 2 days with Neil's parents
(he was an only child), uncle, girlfriend and his best
friend of some 42 years. I've also been to Hus Bos
to find out some facts (rather than all the hearsay
and speculation that's doing the rounds), to enable
me to explain to his family and friends exactly how
and why the accident occurred.

JJ and others - I don't know if you've ever done this,
but let me tell you, it was deeply distressing.

Everyone that I've met has been fantastic and supportive
and willing to share their great memories of Neil,
and those involved in the incident have been willing
to explain what happened to me. To all those people,
I'm eternally grateful.

Neil's family have been very understanding and know
that he died doing the two things that he loved - gliding
and photography. They also knew that in doing this,
he was willing to take certain risks - risks which
he calculated and rationalised to himself. Having
been given the facts, they also know that this was
just a very unfortunate accident - a series of individual
things which lead to the ultimate result and nothing
more. They have no desire to change the sport of gliding
as a result. They also have wish to see any blame
apportioned to the pilot involved.

On Wednesday, after his initial posting, I sent JJ
an email expressing how upset I was by him using the
accident as a forum for his personal soap box. After
his second posting, I have to admit to some some red
mist descending and making me click send on a pretty
offensive email, although in my opinion no more offensive
than his. I don't regret this one bit, particularly
as JJ didn't deign to reply to me personally, he just
carried on with his rant. JJ - if you really believe
you have a point that needs to be made on this subject
right now, come here to the UK, and theres a few of
us who would be interested to hear you make it in person,
face to face.

Neil will always be there - every time we smoke towards
the finish line, and you can bet that, as usual, he'll
be egging us on to get closer...

Regards,

Pete Masson

[pbc76049]

We are all gentlemen here. One thing gentlemen do is to agree to disagree
agreeably.
Allow me to cover a couple of points here. First, I have respect for JJ.
I've spent
time on the phone with him and honestly believe that he WANTS us to be
safer. His
motivations are pure and he only wants us all to live to a great old age and
share a beer
together. Second, I recognise the pain of losing GOOD people of immense
talent.
JJ jumped in because he saw ANOTHER guy lost in a process he feels needs
changing.
I can see merit in his proposal. JJ's message seems to lack tact, given the
outspoken response
his words have recieved....... But we are gentlemen, and we do need to
disagree agreeably.
JJ has a point that needs to be listened too, now isn't a good time for
those very close to the
incident. I would hope that everybody takes a step away from the keyboard
and ask one
question. Can we make Neils legacy one that extends beyond his art, and
after we all
grieve a bit, can we work to prevent this from happening again. I for one
am certian
he would wholeheartedly agree........................
Thanks for reading this
Scott.

[Greg Arnold]

wrote:
> Greg,
>
> Your parenthetical "as far as I know" is sufficient to illustrate my
> point. None of us did know, including at least one SSA director who
> popped off without thinking clearly (and who later, to his credit,
> reconsidered his action). I will offer that the SSA Executive Committee
> handled the situation poorly at the time and exacerbated the loss of
> confidence in due process. But that's hardly the case with the Neil
> Lawson accident investigation.
>
> However, in a classic example of how far apart some of us really are,
> you provide additional fuel for the fire by stating that if an employee
> cannot prove an allegation false, he/she would (should?) be terminated.
> Thankfully neither most employers, most employees, nor the U.S. legal
> system share your view. Denouncing someone to finish their career may
> have been common in the Soviet era but the lines at U.S. employment
> offices would be much, much longer if that were the situation here
> today. :)
>
> Chip Bearden
>

If my employer presents evidence I have been embezzling, and I can't
counter it, I would expect I would be terminated.

[Tim Newport-Peace]

X-no-archive: yes
In article >, Pete Masson <REMOVE_TO_REPL
> writes
>I am now getting deeply upset by this and other similar
>threads. Please everyone just stop them now - if you
>can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.
> If you have kind words or memories to share, please
>continue to do so.
>
>Neil was my best friend and most dedicated crew, and
>I have been most honoured over the years to work with
>him on many of his fantastic photographic exploits,
>as well as sharing much wine, beer and fun with him.
> Everyone knows him for his photos, but those who have
>met him will remember him for his incredibly friendly,
>helpful and passionate nature. It's fair to say that
>I've never met anyone with such an ability to make
>new friends wherever he went.
>
>I have just spent the last 2 days with Neil's parents
>(he was an only child), uncle, girlfriend and his best
>friend of some 42 years. I've also been to Hus Bos
>to find out some facts (rather than all the hearsay
>and speculation that's doing the rounds), to enable
>me to explain to his family and friends exactly how
>and why the accident occurred.
>
>JJ and others - I don't know if you've ever done this,
>but let me tell you, it was deeply distressing.
>
>Everyone that I've met has been fantastic and supportive
>and willing to share their great memories of Neil,
>and those involved in the incident have been willing
>to explain what happened to me. To all those people,
>I'm eternally grateful.
>
>Neil's family have been very understanding and know
>that he died doing the two things that he loved - gliding
>and photography. They also knew that in doing this,
>he was willing to take certain risks - risks which
>he calculated and rationalised to himself. Having
>been given the facts, they also know that this was
>just a very unfortunate accident - a series of individual
>things which lead to the ultimate result and nothing
>more. They have no desire to change the sport of gliding
>as a result. They also have wish to see any blame
>apportioned to the pilot involved.
>
>On Wednesday, after his initial posting, I sent JJ
>an email expressing how upset I was by him using the
>accident as a forum for his personal soap box. After
>his second posting, I have to admit to some some red
>mist descending and making me click send on a pretty
>offensive email, although in my opinion no more offensive
>than his. I don't regret this one bit, particularly
>as JJ didn't deign to reply to me personally, he just
>carried on with his rant. JJ - if you really believe
>you have a point that needs to be made on this subject
>right now, come here to the UK, and theres a few of
>us who would be interested to hear you make it in person,
>face to face.
>
>Neil will always be there - every time we smoke towards
>the finish line, and you can bet that, as usual, he'll
>be egging us on to get closer...
>
>Regards,
>
>Pete Masson
>
>
I support everything Pete says.

JJ's mails do him no credit, nor do they do anything for his countrymen,
although I believe many will be behind Pete and support his plea.

Having once been present at passing of a gliding friend, I know how
distressing the behaviour of the media can be, and insensitivity by
fellow glider pilots is really not welcome.

I am sure that Neil would be deeply distressed by much that has been
written here.

Gentlemen (and Ladies) please think before you post.

Pete: Could you create a web 'book of condolences' that those who
genuinely care could sign in to?

Best regards,

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."

[Stewart Kissel]

>
>JJ's mails do him no credit, nor do they do anything
>for his countrymen,
>although I believe many will be behind Pete and support
>his plea.


Not in my case...JJ has been trying to prevent these
sorts of tragedies from happening for years. His position
is known to all who follow this forum.

So if you want to wait for the authorities' report...so
be it. Then let's call a spade a spade when it comes
out. Why do I have a feeling, regardless of what is
written in the report...that the supporters of this
behavior will not budge an inch?

[Eric Greenwell]

Stewart Kissel wrote:
>>JJ's mails do him no credit, nor do they do anything
>>for his countrymen,
>>although I believe many will be behind Pete and support
>>his plea.
>
>
>
> Not in my case...JJ has been trying to prevent these
> sorts of tragedies from happening for years. His position
> is known to all who follow this forum.
>
> So if you want to wait for the authorities' report...so
> be it. Then let's call a spade a spade when it comes
> out. Why do I have a feeling, regardless of what is
> written in the report...that the supporters of this
> behavior will not budge an inch?

It might be because you have prejudged the situation, as has JJ. From
what I've read, there is no indication the pilot was not performing the
landing properly. JJ's claim that the police arrested him because he
committed homicide was unsupported. At that point, the pilot had not
even been charged, much less convicted of a crime.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[5Z]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> It might be because you have prejudged the situation, as has JJ. From
> what I've read, there is no indication the pilot was not performing the
> landing properly. JJ's claim that the police arrested him because he
> committed homicide was unsupported. At that point, the pilot had not
> even been charged, much less convicted of a crime.

At a contest in Minden a few years back, a pilot finishing a landing
roll hit his daughter who was photographing him. The police arrested
him. He got out quickly and injury wasn't serious IIRC.

A bystander (airport employee) was well clear of the takeoff area, but
had his back to the action. A pilot lost control on takeoff and nearly
killed the bystander. You should have heard the wails of complaint
when crew vehicles were then required to park aft of the launch, no
matter how far to the side.

All that these incidents point out is that vigilance must never be put
in the back seat, period.

-Tom

[Eric Greenwell]

5Z wrote:
> Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>>It might be because you have prejudged the situation, as has JJ. From
>>what I've read, there is no indication the pilot was not performing the
>>landing properly. JJ's claim that the police arrested him because he
>>committed homicide was unsupported. At that point, the pilot had not
>>even been charged, much less convicted of a crime.
>
>
> At a contest in Minden a few years back, a pilot finishing a landing
> roll hit his daughter who was photographing him. The police arrested
> him. He got out quickly and injury wasn't serious IIRC.

This was one of our club's members. His daughter grew up crewing for him
and had caught his wing in the past. This time things went wrong. It
simply isn't possible to determine "guilt" without fully knowing the
situation.

> All that these incidents point out is that vigilance must never be put
> in the back seat, period.

Things can happen fast, and even a small change in what is done can make
the difference. We may have much to learn from Neil's death, but I don't
think we know what it is yet.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Stewart Kissel]

' At that point, the pilot had not even been charged,
much less convicted of a crime.'

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=132697&co
mmand=displayContent&sourceNode=132405&home=yes&contentPK=12982884
&localNewsNodeId=132387

[John Doe]

At 12:48 13 August 2005, Stewart Kissel wrote:
> ' At that point, the pilot had not even been charged,
>much less convicted of a crime.'
>
>http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=132697&co
>>
>mmand=displayContent&sourceNode=132405&home=yes&contentPK=12982884
>>
>&localNewsNodeId=132387
>

An arrest alone does not mean necessarily that a person
has been charged... It is quite normal to arrest people
after accidents on suspicion (and only suspicion) of
felonies and then release on bail pre-charging, even
if in the end no charges are brought. A person on
bail has various restrictions on movements (depending
on bail conditions) and it's easier to bring them back
to charge them.

Again, you are jumping to conclusions, let the investigation
take its course. I wasn't there, neither were you.
If and when formal charges are brought, then you can
point a finger.

J

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

Neil Lawson was the team captain for the British team in the European
championships at Nitra, Slovakia in July.

He wrote the on-line reports , and of course took the photos; these maybe
found at
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competitions/2005/europeans/viewnews-nitra.php

I think his messages make one of the best competition reports I have ever
read, and the pictures are of course superb.

I never met Neil, reading these reports helps me to understand why those who
knew him have been so hard hit.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "2cernauta2" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Dear All,
>
> I hear from my Italian friends at the Junior's WGCs that the famous
> soaring photographer Neil Lawson has died yesterday.
> He was standing on the roof of his car, to get better pictures of the
> finishing gliders. One of those gliders caught him.
> The pilot involved is a British team mate, Ian Craigie. He has been
> arrested.
>
> Very sad news for the whole gliding world, for his friends and
> relatives.
>
> He will be missed
>
> Aldo Cernezzi
>

[Ruud]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:36:49 +0200, Stefan >
wrote:

>JJ Sinclair wrote:
>
>> Well, Kirk, the first poster said the pilot was finishing. He also said
>> the pilot was arrested, why? Because he committed a homicide. That's
>> right he was responsible for the death of an innocent bystander.
>
>No. This wasn't an "innocent bystander". This was a well informed
>insider, who knew exactly what he was doing and deliberately decided to
>take the well known risk.

Part of the official BGA statement:
"a collision between a glider and a man, adjacent to Husbands Bosworth
airfield"
Adjacent means outside the perimeter of the airfield...

>Every accident is a very sad thing, of course, but the truth is the truth.
You mean perception is reality?

[Ian Johnston]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:08:57 UTC, Pete Masson
> wrote:

: Neil will always be there - every time we smoke towards
: the finish line, and you can bet that, as usual, he'll
: be egging us on to get closer...

I recognize that you are upset, but I find that a quite remarkable
claim.

Ian


--

[Don Johnstone]

At 22:12 12 August 2005, Pete Masson wrote: (snip)
>I am now getting deeply upset by this and other similar
>threads.
>
>On Wednesday, after his initial posting, I sent JJ
>an email expressing how upset I was by him using the
>accident as a forum for his personal soap box. After
>his second posting, I have to admit to some some red
>mist descending and making me click send on a pretty
>offensive email, although in my opinion no more offensive
>than his. I don't regret this one bit, particularly
>as JJ didn't deign to reply to me personally, he just
>carried on with his rant. JJ - if you really believe
>you have a point that needs to be made on this subject
>right now, come here to the UK, and theres a few of
>us who would be interested to hear you make it in person,
>face to face.
>
>Neil will always be there - every time we smoke towards
>the finish line, and you can bet that, as usual, he'll
>be egging us on to get closer...
>
>Regards,
>
>Pete Masson

I have already gone on record as saying that coment
on this incident is best left until after the facts
are ascertained and I have also rebuked those who have
used the incident to further personal agendas. I further
understand the sadness felt by those who are close
to the people involved.
If JJ was wrong in the way he made his postings, and
I accept this is not for me to judge, but I can give
an opinion then and that is that the same must apply
to all. Two wrongs do not make a right. I have thought
long and hard about the above posting and while I understand
that the words were spoken from the heart some things
are better left unsaid. It would be unfair for me to
comment as I have about JJ and not about this posting.
All I would ask is that the last paragraph is considered
in the same light as the posting made by JJ with regard
to personal agendas and the effect such a statement
may have both on those glider pilots reading it and
those investigating this incident.

In answer to a question posed in the same posting I
have had the misfortune to tell relatives of the loss
of their loved ones on far too many occasions. It is
something that I am totally committed to do anything
in my power to avoid doing again or indeed to make
it necessary for anyone else to do.

[[email protected]]

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). wrote:
> Neil Lawson was the team captain for the British team in the European
> championships at Nitra, Slovakia in July.
>
> He wrote the on-line reports , and of course took the photos; these maybe
> found at
> http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competitions/2005/europeans/viewnews-nitra.php
>
> I think his messages make one of the best competition reports I have ever
> read, and the pictures are of course superb.
>
> I never met Neil, reading these reports helps me to understand why those who
> knew him have been so hard hit.


I think the caption from the photo posted on the 20/7/05 says it all.

>
> W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
> Remove "ic" to reply.
>
> >
> > "2cernauta2" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > I hear from my Italian friends at the Junior's WGCs that the famous
> > soaring photographer Neil Lawson has died yesterday.
> > He was standing on the roof of his car, to get better pictures of the
> > finishing gliders. One of those gliders caught him.
> > The pilot involved is a British team mate, Ian Craigie. He has been
> > arrested.
> >
> > Very sad news for the whole gliding world, for his friends and
> > relatives.
> >
> > He will be missed
> >
> > Aldo Cernezzi
> >