Is this legal for a private pilot?

[Yossarian]

I'm an instrument rated private pilot. My CFI was going to fly with
one of his student pilots to an airport an hour away to go to the
student's vacation home, providing instruction along the way. Then he
would leave the student there for a couple days, and return to pick the
student up.

Now the CFI can't make it and wants to know if I will make the trip
instead. I would pay for half the flight expenses and of course be PIC
for both flights. Is this legal?

[Gary Drescher]

"Yossarian" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm an instrument rated private pilot. My CFI was going to fly with
> one of his student pilots to an airport an hour away to go to the
> student's vacation home, providing instruction along the way. Then he
> would leave the student there for a couple days, and return to pick the
> student up.
>
> Now the CFI can't make it and wants to know if I will make the trip
> instead. I would pay for half the flight expenses and of course be PIC
> for both flights. Is this legal?

It sounds doubtful; you'd essentially be providing air taxi services to
someone you don't know.

If it were legal, though, the passenger could only pay for half of the
portion of the flight that the passenger was on board for (hence just a
fourth of the round trip).

--Gary

[Dave]

Just go buy a bag of Planter's Peanuts. Make sure he ask if there is any
inflight food, and charge him $200 for the bag of peanuts.

A guy I know that works for the FAA told me thats how you get around this
kind of thing.

There was a big discussion about this in one of these groups. I asked him
about the legalities, and thats what he said.

I still think the best thing is to not talk about it.

Dave

"Yossarian" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm an instrument rated private pilot. My CFI was going to fly with
> one of his student pilots to an airport an hour away to go to the
> student's vacation home, providing instruction along the way. Then he
> would leave the student there for a couple days, and return to pick the
> student up.
>
> Now the CFI can't make it and wants to know if I will make the trip
> instead. I would pay for half the flight expenses and of course be PIC
> for both flights. Is this legal?
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Yossarian" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> [...]
> Now the CFI can't make it and wants to know if I will make the trip
> instead. I would pay for half the flight expenses and of course be PIC
> for both flights. Is this legal?

IMHO, no. Even though you are meeting the "pro-rata" requirement, you would
be violating the "common purpose" case law. Personally, I think
requirements should all be found in the FARs themselves, but that's just not
how things work. The fact that you would not otherwise be making the trip
is what the FAA would complain about.

I am assuming that by "half the flight expenses", you mean for the portion
when the student pilot is in the airplane, and that for the other two legs
(when you are by yourself) you would pay 100% of the expenses. Being
reimbursed at all for the legs you were alone would be an obvious violation
of even the written FAR.

That said, unless your pilot certificate reads "Yossarian", it seems
unlikely anyone would be concerned at all. :) (And if it does read
"Yossarian", either your parents had a cynical expectation for your life, or
a strange sense of humor :) ).

Pete

[Yossarian]

Gary Drescher wrote:
> "Yossarian" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > I'm an instrument rated private pilot. My CFI was going to fly with
> > one of his student pilots to an airport an hour away to go to the
> > student's vacation home, providing instruction along the way. Then he
> > would leave the student there for a couple days, and return to pick the
> > student up.
> >
> > Now the CFI can't make it and wants to know if I will make the trip
> > instead. I would pay for half the flight expenses and of course be PIC
> > for both flights. Is this legal?
>
> It sounds doubtful; you'd essentially be providing air taxi services to
> someone you don't know.
>

Would it also be considered air taxi for the CFI?

[Peter Duniho]

"Yossarian" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Would it also be considered air taxi for the CFI?

The CFI has other aspects in his favor: previous relationship with the
student, for one (can avoid an accusation of "holding out"), as well as the
expectation that the CFI will be along for flights they would not have
already made without the student (so the requirement for "common purpose"
isn't so clearly needed).

Of course, in many cases the CFI is working for a flight school that also
operates an on-demand Part 135 business, and the CFI may be a pilot for that
operation. Don't know if that's the case here, but that can avoid all hint
of problems if it is.

Pete

[Andrew Gideon]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> Don'tÂ*knowÂ*ifÂ*that'sÂ*theÂ*caseÂ*here,Â*butÂ*th atÂ*canÂ*avoidÂ*allÂ*hint
> of problems if it is.

Isn't there a requirement on the airplane itself for a 135 operation? Or
can a school that happens to also have a 135 business fly any of the school
planes as "air taxis" should the opportunity arise?

- Andrew

[Gary Drescher]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Yossarian" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Would it also be considered air taxi for the CFI?
>
> The CFI has other aspects in his favor: previous relationship with the
> student, for one (can avoid an accusation of "holding out"), as well as
> the expectation that the CFI will be along for flights they would not have
> already made without the student (so the requirement for "common purpose"
> isn't so clearly needed).

Or to put it another way, instruction during the flight *is* a common
purpose for the flight (even if transporting the student is an additional,
non-common purpose).

--Gary

[Peter Duniho]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Isn't there a requirement on the airplane itself for a 135 operation?

Yes. However, a flight school operating a Part 135 operation will have some
or all of their fleet certified for the Part 135 operation. Presumably, if
the CFI was using the Part 135 operation as a legal safety net, he'd make
sure they took one of the Part 135 planes.

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:07:18 -0400, Andrew Gideon >
wrote:

>Peter Duniho wrote:
>
>> Don't*know*if*that's*the*case*here,*but*that*can*a void*all*hint
>> of problems if it is.
>
>Isn't there a requirement on the airplane itself for a 135 operation? Or
>can a school that happens to also have a 135 business fly any of the school
>planes as "air taxis" should the opportunity arise?
>
> - Andrew

A Pt 135 operating certificate typically lists specific aircraft
make(s)/model(s), with pertinent operating and maintenance
documentation for same. It does not list aircraft by "N" number.

If an aircraft is equipped and maintained to Pt 135 standards,
operated by a properly certificated crew, it can be used as an "air
taxi".

The difference between Pt 91 and Pt 135 maintenance on a typical
single trainer is relatively minimal (100 hr inspections, mandatory
TBO times on engine/propeller/safety equipment), so it is not uncommon
for a small 135 operation to have rental/training aircraft on it's
operating certificate.

TC

[fly123]

Yossarian wrote:

> I\'m an instrument rated private pilot. My CFI was going to fly with
> one of his student pilots to an airport an hour away to go to the
> student\'s vacation home, providing instruction along the way. Then he
> would leave the student there for a couple days, and return to pick the
> student up.

> Now the CFI can\'t make it and wants to know if I will make the trip
> instead. I would pay for half the flight expenses and of course be PIC
> for both flights. Is this legal?

*** Sent From/Enviado desde: http://groups.expo.st ***

[[email protected]]

>"Yossarian" > wrote:
>
>>I'm an instrument rated private pilot. My CFI was going to fly with
>>one of his student pilots to an airport an hour away to go to the
>>student's vacation home, providing instruction along the way. Then he
>>would leave the student there for a couple days, and return to pick the
>>student up.
>>
>>Now the CFI can't make it and wants to know if I will make the trip
>>instead. I would pay for half the flight expenses and of course be PIC
>>for both flights. Is this legal?

Just curious, how would the FAA know whether you were paid or for what
amount?

Corky Scott

[George Patterson]

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
>
> They only know if someone tells them - just like someone
> told the FAA in all the NTSB cases on this subject.

While this is frequently the case, there are also violations that start because
an examiner happened to be in the FBO when people started settling up the bill.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Dave]

And my response would have been:

"Of course not, it was good to see your mom again, I would never take money
from you for that!"

Then after we leave, on the ride home, I would explain why I said that, and
figure it out from the point on.

Dave

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> George Patterson > wrote:
>
>>> They only know if someone tells them - just like someone
>>> told the FAA in all the NTSB cases on this subject.
>>
>>While this is frequently the case, there are also violations that start
>>because
>>an examiner happened to be in the FBO when people started settling up the
>>bill.
>
> True. Of course, even there, what usually happens is the
> FAA official asks. Even if the pilot keeps his mouth shut,
> the passenger may not.
>
> In the simplest of situations, a passenger can put you into
> the wringer. With the most innocent of motives, you take
> your friend flying. He wants to see his mom's house and the
> airport near where he grew up. You suggest landing there
> and eating lunch before refueling and returning.
>
> You fly out there, but unbeknownst to you he's called his
> mom to come out, watch the landing, and Oh, BTW, would she
> bring out that pack of mail she's been trying to get him
> home to pick up. Now you fly home, pay the $270 rental
> bill, not even intending to ask for 50% and your friend,
> looking over your should says: "I guess I owe you $270 for
> flying me home to see Mom and pick up that mail!" Guess
> who's standing there just finishing up the CFI flight test -
> the friendly FAA :-)
>
> Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will
> return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.
>
> (first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)

[Dave Stadt]

"Dave" > wrote in message
...
> And my response would have been:
>
> "Of course not, it was good to see your mom again, I would never take
money
> from you for that!"
>
> Then after we leave, on the ride home, I would explain why I said that,
and
> figure it out from the point on.
>
> Dave

Better yet explain it up front before either of you get to the airport. A
pilot not smart enough to figure that out deserves to get caught. I still
say if the friend wants to pay he should give you a nice check in your next
birthday card which just by chance happened to get sent months before your
birthday.

[Jose]

> Better yet explain it up front before either of you get to the airport. A
> pilot not smart enough to figure that out deserves to get caught.

This presumes the pilot has in the front of his mind that he is doing
something a little shady. He's not doing anything shady, so there's no
reason to "explain" before we get to the airport that we shouldn't be
mentioning certain things at the FBO.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Roger]

On 16 Aug 2005 11:41:12 -0700, "Yossarian" >
wrote:

>
>Gary Drescher wrote:
>> "Yossarian" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > I'm an instrument rated private pilot. My CFI was going to fly with
>> > one of his student pilots to an airport an hour away to go to the
>> > student's vacation home, providing instruction along the way. Then he
>> > would leave the student there for a couple days, and return to pick the
>> > student up.
>> >
>> > Now the CFI can't make it and wants to know if I will make the trip
>> > instead. I would pay for half the flight expenses and of course be PIC
>> > for both flights. Is this legal?
>>
>> It sounds doubtful; you'd essentially be providing air taxi services to
>> someone you don't know.
>>
>
>Would it also be considered air taxi for the CFI?

It's an instructional flight.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On 16 Aug 2005 10:31:32 -0700, "Yossarian" >
wrote:

>I'm an instrument rated private pilot. My CFI was going to fly with
>one of his student pilots to an airport an hour away to go to the
>student's vacation home, providing instruction along the way. Then he
>would leave the student there for a couple days, and return to pick the
>student up.
>
>Now the CFI can't make it and wants to know if I will make the trip
>instead. I would pay for half the flight expenses and of course be PIC
>for both flights. Is this legal?


Tis a slippery slope.

Think of it this way:
If you are planning on going up to an airport, you hear another pilot
or student wants to go to the same airport, you can offer him a ride
(whether you know him or not) as his going along is incidental to
"your" trip. He can even offer to pay for half the gas.

OTOH if he's looking for a ride up to that airport and mentions it to
you then the very same trip is not legal as his going is the purpose
of the trip.

Back to first case and you *really* were planning the trip and every
thing went as in the first paragraph. Then passenger brags to some
one that you flew him up there and it only cost (what ever half what
ever the gas was) Word gets back to the FAA and you are in deep doggie
do.

When I give people rides, unless I know them very well, I don't even
share the cost of gas. If I give some one a ride to another airport
it's because I had planned on going there and I make sure they and
others around the airport know I had planned on going.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com