P-3 and AIM-9

[Larry Cauble]

As a young sailor (some 30+ years ago) I flew in the back of an EP-3B 'Batrack' aicraft of VQ-1. Years later, I read of the story of the two P-3As that were converted to EP-3Bs in the 1960s.

The story is that they were CIA-operated out of Taiwan, Germany, etc. with a number of modifications for intelligence collection and agent dropping and various skullduggery. When the CIA was done (by 1968) they were modified into the Navy first reconnaissance EP-3s.

One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs while engaged in overflights...

This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a thing?

[Don McIntyre]

Larry,
I heard the same stories you did (30 years ago or so, I'm a retired
AW), and I haven't been able to find anything that verifies the story.
Even some of the guys I knew flying in the "spookier" P-3s, that I knew
for years wouldn't verify anything.

Don McIntyre
Clarksville, TN

[Dave Kearton]

"Keith W" > wrote in message

| "Larry Cauble" > wrote in
| message .. .
||
|| As a young sailor (some 30+ years ago) I flew in the back of an EP-3B
|| 'Batrack' aicraft of VQ-1. Years later, I read of the story of the
|| two P-3As that were converted to EP-3Bs in the 1960s.
||
|| The story is that they were CIA-operated out of Taiwan, Germany, etc.
|| with a number of modifications for intelligence collection and agent
|| dropping and various skullduggery. When the CIA was done (by 1968)
|| they were modified into the Navy first reconnaissance EP-3s.
||
|| One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
|| rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs
|| while engaged in overflights...
||
|| This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a
|| thing?
||
|
| Its not that far fetched, the RAF fitted AIM-9's to its Nimrod
| Maritime Patrol aircraft during the Falklands war.
|
| Keith




I think the rear-firing part is the bit that's causing concern.



Would be an interesting series of seperation trials.



--

Cheers


Dave Kearton

[Joe Delphi]

>
> > One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
> > rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs while
> > engaged in overflights...
> >
> > This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a thing?

Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. Too much danger of the missile hitting the
horizontal stablizer on its way out.

JD

[Gord Beaman]

"Joe Delphi" > wrote:

>>
>> > One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
>> > rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs while
>> > engaged in overflights...
>> >
>> > This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a thing?
>
>Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. Too much danger of the missile hitting the
>horizontal stablizer on its way out.
>
>JD
>
It would tumble all over the place wouldn't it?...as likely
impact the fuselage as anywhere I'd think, hell, the turbulence
might even trash the whole missile, rip the fins off etc.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[Larry Cauble]

Yeah, really I'm talking crazy aerodynamics...

On the other hand, does anyone remember the Soviet sub overflown by a Navy P-3 in the 1980s that had a mockup small SAM launcher up on the sail? There was some turbulence after that photo hit the fan...

So -- if you think you've got intell collectors watching you, paint up a blue missile all authentic colors and mount it on a pylon facing backwards... Hope that word filters through to the bad guys and who knows? Maybe that MiG pilot will twitch a bit, thereby causing him to miss. The Chinese Nationalists lost a lot of aircraft over the years, including several P2Vs (RB-69As).

Larry,
I heard the same stories you did (30 years ago or so, I'm a retired
AW), and I haven't been able to find anything that verifies the story.
Even some of the guys I knew flying in the "spookier" P-3s, that I knew
for years wouldn't verify anything.
Don McIntyre
Clarksville, TN

I was a CTI back-ender and it's only been the past few years that I have allowed myself to THINK about this stuff...let alone verify.

Here's a photo of a black-painted P-3 at NAF Naha in October of 1966 for maintenance. According to www.vpnavy.net it's buno 149678, an EP-3B of VQ-1. It was later converted to an EP-3B and was in VQ-1 but in October of 1966 it was still a P-3A, albeit modified, and belonged to the CIA/ROCAF and was flying from Taiwan, etc. Note the CHINAT insignia, along with a few odd bumps and whatnot, including adapter rails on the wing pylons...

[Dave in San Diego]

Gord Beaman > wrote in
:

> "Joe Delphi" > wrote:
>
>>>
>>> > One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
>>> > rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs
>>> > while engaged in overflights...
>>> >
>>> > This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a
>>> > thing?
>>
>>Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. Too much danger of the missile
>>hitting the horizontal stablizer on its way out.
>>
>>JD
>>
> It would tumble all over the place wouldn't it?...as likely
> impact the fuselage as anywhere I'd think, hell, the turbulence
> might even trash the whole missile, rip the fins off etc.

I doubt they would stay on the rails much past 100 knots. The wind blast
on the blunt back end (nozzle) would probably blow them off. The missiles
aren't mechanically locked to the rail, just held in place by the spring
loaded detent, which had been known to loosen over time, leading to
separations upon recovery, as documented here -
http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/printthread.php?t=51707 .

Adding a small fairing over the nozzle might alleviate that problem, but
I'm really doubtful that this whole rear-firing thing was ever done.

Dave in San Diego

[Dave in San Diego]

Dave in San Diego > wrote in
:

> Gord Beaman > wrote in
> :
>
>> "Joe Delphi" > wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> > One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
>>>> > rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs
>>>> > while engaged in overflights...
>>>> >
>>>> > This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a
>>>> > thing?
>>>
>>>Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. Too much danger of the missile
>>>hitting the horizontal stablizer on its way out.
>>>
>>>JD
>>>
>> It would tumble all over the place wouldn't it?...as likely
>> impact the fuselage as anywhere I'd think, hell, the turbulence
>> might even trash the whole missile, rip the fins off etc.
>
> I doubt they would stay on the rails much past 100 knots. The wind
> blast on the blunt back end (nozzle) would probably blow them off. The
> missiles aren't mechanically locked to the rail, just held in place by
> the spring loaded detent, which had been known to loosen over time,
> leading to separations upon recovery, as documented here -
> http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/printthread.php?t=51707 .
>
> Adding a small fairing over the nozzle might alleviate that problem,
> but I'm really doubtful that this whole rear-firing thing was ever
> done.
>
> Dave in San Diego

I know, it's not kool to follow up your own posts, but I just had to. The
NSC site has the originals of the 'Winder pics in the above link, and the
details - http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/photo/archive/photo3.htm

Dave in San Diego

[Keith W]

"Dave Kearton" > wrote in
message ...
>
> "Keith W" > wrote in message
>
> | "Larry Cauble" > wrote in
> | message .. .
> ||
> || As a young sailor (some 30+ years ago) I flew in the back of an EP-3B
> || 'Batrack' aicraft of VQ-1. Years later, I read of the story of the
> || two P-3As that were converted to EP-3Bs in the 1960s.
> ||
> || The story is that they were CIA-operated out of Taiwan, Germany, etc.
> || with a number of modifications for intelligence collection and agent
> || dropping and various skullduggery. When the CIA was done (by 1968)
> || they were modified into the Navy first reconnaissance EP-3s.
> ||
> || One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
> || rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs
> || while engaged in overflights...
> ||
> || This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a
> || thing?
> ||
> |
> | Its not that far fetched, the RAF fitted AIM-9's to its Nimrod
> | Maritime Patrol aircraft during the Falklands war.
> |
> | Keith
>
>
>
>
> I think the rear-firing part is the bit that's causing concern.
>
>

True enough , that part would be a bitch, forward firing AIM-9's
I can believe but not pointing backwards.

Keith



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Larry Cauble wrote:
> As a young sailor (some 30+ years ago) I flew in the back of an EP-3B
> 'Batrack' aicraft of VQ-1. Years later, I read of the story of the two
> P-3As that were converted to EP-3Bs in the 1960s.
>y Cauble

Hmm When were you in Q1 ??? I was There 30+ years ago too, only I flew
the
other two.


Rick
Everett, Washington

[Gord Beaman]

Dave in San Diego > wrote:

>, leading to
>separations upon recovery, as documented here -
>http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/printthread.php?t=51707 .
>
>Adding a small fairing over the nozzle might alleviate that problem, but
>I'm really doubtful that this whole rear-firing thing was ever done.
>
>Dave in San Diego

Me too...and I can see now why those guys wore hearing
protection!...
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[Geo Silver (Tinkr)]

Look into the work done at China Lake during the development of AIM-9s

>
>>One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
>>rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs while
>>engaged in overflights...
>>
>>This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a thing?
>>
>
>
> Its not that far fetched, the RAF fitted AIM-9's to its Nimrod Maritime
> Patrol aircraft during the Falklands war.
>
> Keith
>
>

[alumshubby]

I think if I was working on the roof and saw a 'winder come loose, fall
off the rail and go skidding down the flight deck like that, my first
act would be to promptly wet my pants...

[Mike Kanze]

>True enough , that part would be a bitch, forward firing AIM-9's I can
>believe but not pointing backwards.

I wouldn't have believed that a P-3 airframe could bag a Chinese F-8...until
it actually happened. <g>

--
Mike Kanze

"If you want to feel secure about the world, never talk to a member of the
generation that's running it."

- Jeremy Duncan (ZITS comic strip, 7/9/05)


"Keith W" > wrote in message
...
>
>[lotsa snippage]

[Larry Cauble]

Hmm When were you in Q1 ??? I was There 30+ years ago too, only I flew
the other two.

I was TAD to the Security Group det (FSD Cubi Pt) for several months in the summer of '73. Only actually flew on PR 31 (buno 149678.)

[Diamond Jim]

"alumshubby" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I think if I was working on the roof and saw a 'winder come loose, fall
> off the rail and go skidding down the flight deck like that, my first
> act would be to promptly wet my pants...
>

It's far better to see one go skidding down the deck than it is to have one
go flying down the deck.

[Don McIntyre]

Now THAT is an interesting pic.

Don McIntyre
Clarksville, TN