Looking for a two-seater design

[Shin Gou]

that has about 100hp, can fly basic aerobatics safely and cruise at
least 150mph. My reference and comparison of this design is Cessna
A150. I want a design that has the same aerobtic capability as Cessna
A150 with lighter control(Stick of course!), and flys much faster. What
I can think of are:
Europa (not very aerobatic capable), Avid Acrobat/Kitfox speedster
(slow), MCR100 (sophisiticated construction, quoted 5000 labor hours),
Sonerai/Sonex (suggested pilot only to fly acro), KR-2(not very
aerobatic capable)

I know everyone will say, for your mission, go build a RV. Actually,
what I want IS a RV--a 100hp RV. Why do I want a 100hp airplane?
Because I like Cessna A150, but it's just too slow. I belive with the
latest material development and design method, there should be a much
improved Cessna A150 type plane. The building cost and ownership of a
100hp RV-type plane is certainly lower than a real RV.

If no new suggestion comes up, I will probably bite the bullet to go
with a MCR100. A friend of mine is building a Cri-Cri, genious design,
so I am sure I won't go wrong with the two-seater MCR100, just a
loooong time to build. OR, I may want to be too stupid to design such
a plane myself. What's the aerodynamic relationship between aerobatic
capability and fast cruising speed?

[[email protected]]

Sounds like you're looking for something similiar to what I'm looking
at. Some of the possible designs I'm looking at are not really
aerobatic, but have the structural strength and are designed for that
"fighter jet" type feel. Anyway just some food for thought.

http://www.cag-sl.com/ - TOXO
http://www.esqualna.com/ - Esqual VM-1
http://www.pulsaraircraft.com/ - Super Pulsar 100
http://www.tl-ultralight.cz/ - Sting

I looked into the pulsar and sting quite a bit and although the planes
look pretty nice, I'm not quite sure the companies have their act
together

[Kyle Boatright]

Sonex?

"Shin Gou" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> that has about 100hp, can fly basic aerobatics safely and cruise at
> least 150mph. My reference and comparison of this design is Cessna
> A150. I want a design that has the same aerobtic capability as Cessna
> A150 with lighter control(Stick of course!), and flys much faster. What
> I can think of are:
> Europa (not very aerobatic capable), Avid Acrobat/Kitfox speedster
> (slow), MCR100 (sophisiticated construction, quoted 5000 labor hours),
> Sonerai/Sonex (suggested pilot only to fly acro), KR-2(not very
> aerobatic capable)
>
> I know everyone will say, for your mission, go build a RV. Actually,
> what I want IS a RV--a 100hp RV. Why do I want a 100hp airplane?
> Because I like Cessna A150, but it's just too slow. I belive with the
> latest material development and design method, there should be a much
> improved Cessna A150 type plane. The building cost and ownership of a
> 100hp RV-type plane is certainly lower than a real RV.
>
> If no new suggestion comes up, I will probably bite the bullet to go
> with a MCR100. A friend of mine is building a Cri-Cri, genious design,
> so I am sure I won't go wrong with the two-seater MCR100, just a
> loooong time to build. OR, I may want to be too stupid to design such
> a plane myself. What's the aerodynamic relationship between aerobatic
> capability and fast cruising speed?
>

[Shin Gou]

RV-9 is not aerobatic. Vans says that very clearly. Pilot only to fly
acro in Sonex according to its specification. Esqual, Pular and Sting
are not aerobatic stressed and their companies also said very clearly
no recommendation for acro. Toxo seems like a mini Glasair. I will look
into it.

Thank you

Shin

[Shin Gou]

Just looked at Toxo website a little more carefully and I feel some
suspicious. They quote "maximum 230mph, stall at 40mph with Jabiru 3300
120hp" And there's no weight information at the website. Maximum and
stall speeds ratio almost 6:1? Tooooo good to be true.

[Matt Whiting]

Shin Gou wrote:
> Just looked at Toxo website a little more carefully and I feel some
> suspicious. They quote "maximum 230mph, stall at 40mph with Jabiru 3300
> 120hp" And there's no weight information at the website. Maximum and
> stall speeds ratio almost 6:1? Tooooo good to be true.
>

Depends on what they mean by maximum. A ratio of 6:1 for max cruise
over stall would be pretty magical. 4:1 is more like it for a good
homebuilt and few spam cans attain 3:1. However, if they are talking
about Vne, then 6:1 might not be so unreasonable.


Matt

[Shin Gou]

just googled Toxo and found some interesting information. What's the
follow up of this partnership? I didn't hear anything about it at OSH
this year.

Friday, August 01, 2003
For Immediate Release
Contact:Larry (830) 896-6000 ext. 2913

Topic:Mooney Airplane Company partners with Spanish manufacturer

OSHKOSH, WISC. Aug. 1, 2003 - Mooney Aerospace Group, Ltd.
(OTCBB:MASG)announced today at the annual meeting of the Experimental
Aircraft Association (EAA)that its wholly-owned subsidiary has entered
into a strategic relationship withConstucciones Aeronauticas De
Galicia, manufacturer of the Toxo light sport aircraft inSpain, to
manufacture, design, assemble and market the two-seater plane. The
aircraftwill be renamed the Mooney Toxo, and Mooney will undertake all
Toxo related activitiesfrom its plant in Kerrville, Texas.J. Nelson
Happy, president of Mooney, stated: "This is a major step for our
company. Noother traditional aircraft manufacturer has entered the
light sport aircraft market before,but we believe that the time has
come for us to do this. We have flown many of the lightsport aircraft
available today, and we chose the Toxo because we believe it
bestrepresents Mooney's philosophy of offering the highest performing
aircraft in its class.The Toxo is a miracle of engineering and design,
and every pilot who has flown it hasimmediately fallen in love with it.
The price of a fully equipped airplane will besubstantially below
$100,000, so a new high performance airplane will be available to amuch
wider group of pilots."Antonio Castelo Silvira, a principal of
Constucciones Aeonauticas De Galicia, remarked:"We have been working on
the Toxo airplane for 10 years, and over 20 aircraft are nowflying in
Europe. We are pleased to be associated with Mooney, who we believe
bestcharacterizes the traditional high-performance piston powered four
place aircraft.Mooney's reputation for high performance and value is
consistent with our corporateobjectives, so the affiliation is natural.
We plan to work closely with Mooney to adapt theToxo to the North
American market, and we think this is a breakthrough for us."Happy,
stated that the Toxo is built with the latest technology in materials
and aerospacetechnique. It is made of composite construction, and is an
ideal plane for both businessand holiday trips, with characteristics
such as ease of maneuvering, long range, short-field capability,
comfort, enhanced cockpit visibility, and superior cockpit arch. It
isavailable with engines from 80 to 180 HP. To ensure a safe and easy
flight, the Toxounderwent an exhaustive program of static, dynamic,
load, fatigue, and flight tests.The airplane, with a 120 HP engine, has
a maximum speed of 230 mph, a cruise speed of180 mph, a 10-hour range,
and a service ceiling of 14,000 feet.

More details about the Toxo are available at www.cag-sl.com, CAG's
website

FOR MORE INFORMATION: Contact Mr. Larry Hunter, Press relations Manager
orMr. Nicolas Chabbert, Executive Vice President, Mooney Airplane
Company, 830-896-6000, or visit our website, www.mooney.com

[Shin Gou]

The 230mph maximum speed is in Mooney's press release so it shouldn't
be a typo. We'll see.

[Shin Gou]

Note the 230mph maximum speed is in Mooney's press release... We'll
see.

[Shin Gou]

Note the 230mph maximum speed is in Mooney's press release... We'll
see.

[Lou]

Shin Gou wrote:
> Note the 230mph maximum speed is in Mooney's press release... We'll
> see.

Did anyone see a price?
Lou

[Byron J. Covey]

Not many aircraft (other than special purpose homebuilts) actually achieve a
top speed:stall speed ratio of 4, much less a max cruise: stall speed ratio
of 4. Of course, some consider max cruise to be maximum speed at any (read
"low") altitude.

Examples:

Aircraft Top Speed:Stall Speed at gross
150 HP RV-3 4.1
180 HP RV-4 3.9
200 HP RV-8 3.8
160 HP RV-9 3.9
260 HP RV-10 3.3

The typical RV-3 that is going that fast is operating at well over the 2700
RPM where the engine is rated 150 HP.

The prototype GlaStar was designed and flown successfully with the O-240.


BJC

> Depends on what they mean by maximum. A ratio of 6:1 for max cruise over
> stall would be pretty magical. 4:1 is more like it for a good homebuilt
> and few spam cans attain 3:1. However, if they are talking about Vne,
> then 6:1 might not be so unreasonable.
>
>
> Matt
>

[Bob Korves]

"Shin Gou" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Just looked at Toxo website a little more carefully and I feel some
> suspicious. They quote "maximum 230mph, stall at 40mph with Jabiru 3300
> 120hp" And there's no weight information at the website. Maximum and
> stall speeds ratio almost 6:1? Tooooo good to be true.
>

If the airplane stalls at 40 mph, then it stalls at 80 mph at 4 G's. This
same airplane would stall at 16 G's at 160 mph. 230? Get real, small gusts
alone would kill you at that speed. One or the other (or more likely both)
of those numbers is pure fiction. To paraphrase an old saw: "There are
lies, damned lies, and specifications for homebuilts".
-Bob

[[email protected]]

I'm looking for the same kind of thing. An aircraft that can take a
Rotax 914. The other thing I want is tandem seating like the Rv-4/8.
The Titan T-51 seems close although 2 sets of controls would be nice.
That turbo charger and a polished silver T-51 way up high in the cold
blue would be someting to see.


Shin Gou wrote:
> that has about 100hp, can fly basic aerobatics safely and cruise at
> least 150mph. My reference and comparison of this design is Cessna
> A150. I want a design that has the same aerobtic capability as Cessna
> A150 with lighter control(Stick of course!), and flys much faster.
What
> I can think of are:
> Europa (not very aerobatic capable), Avid Acrobat/Kitfox speedster
> (slow), MCR100 (sophisiticated construction, quoted 5000 labor
hours),
> Sonerai/Sonex (suggested pilot only to fly acro), KR-2(not very
> aerobatic capable)
>
> I know everyone will say, for your mission, go build a RV. Actually,
> what I want IS a RV--a 100hp RV. Why do I want a 100hp airplane?
> Because I like Cessna A150, but it's just too slow. I belive with the
> latest material development and design method, there should be a much
> improved Cessna A150 type plane. The building cost and ownership of a
> 100hp RV-type plane is certainly lower than a real RV.
>
> If no new suggestion comes up, I will probably bite the bullet to go
> with a MCR100. A friend of mine is building a Cri-Cri, genious
design,
> so I am sure I won't go wrong with the two-seater MCR100, just a
> loooong time to build. OR, I may want to be too stupid to design
such
> a plane myself. What's the aerodynamic relationship between aerobatic
> capability and fast cruising speed?