FLAPS

[skysailor]

I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.

[Bill Daniels]

"skysailor" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
> had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
> big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
> glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
> a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
> would like some opinions concerning this.
>

I'm assuming that your question is about a glider equipped with performance
flaps AND spoilers. I'd suggest that if you can find a Lark IS28 b2 that
you can get a ride in, that might answer your question. The Lark flaps work
pretty much like they all do. In other words, no problemo.

My first flight in a flapped glider (A Diamant) was at about the same number
of hours you have and I had no problem with it. In fact, it was a blast to
fly.

Bill Daniels

[Greg Arnold]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "skysailor" wrote in message
>
>>I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
>>had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
>>big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
>>glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
>>a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
>>would like some opinions concerning this.

> I'm assuming that your question is about a glider equipped with performance
> flaps AND spoilers. I'd suggest that if you can find a Lark IS28 b2 that
> you can get a ride in, that might answer your question. The Lark flaps work
> pretty much like they all do. In other words, no problemo.
>
> My first flight in a flapped glider (A Diamant) was at about the same number
> of hours you have and I had no problem with it. In fact, it was a blast to
> fly.
>
> Bill Daniels

My first flight in a flapped glider (LS3) was with 30 hours in gliders,
and no previous flying experience of any type. No problem.

[Ted Wagner]

My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No problems
at all.

I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and shorter
landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy when you
land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country and facing
limited landout options.

-ted/2NO

"skysailor" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
> had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
> big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
> glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
> a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
> would like some opinions concerning this.
>

[Kilo Charlie]

"Ted Wagner" > wrote in message
news:1124852672.6a09312da6ceee89f29b6a8aae6c53b4@t eranews...
> My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No
> problems at all.
>
> I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and
> shorter landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy
> when you land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country
> and facing limited landout options.
>
> -ted/2NO

I agree with the idea of flaps not being a reason to limit your first glider
purchase. However I don't agree with the old wives tale of flapped gliders
being safer due to their much slower landing speeds and therefore shorter
stopping distances. An appropriately flown approach and touchdown with a
modern standard class glider against the same in a 15 meter ship shows that
they touch down at basically the same speed and stop in the same distance.
What is much more important but gets less press is what kind of brakes you
have and if they work well.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

[01-- Zero One]

"old wives tale."



Now this is going to be a fun thread to watch for a while! :-)



Larry Goddard

01 "Zero One"





"Kilo Charlie" <NOSPAMkilocharlie.cox.net> wrote in message
news:mpSOe.124815$E95.33431@fed1read01:

> "Ted Wagner" > wrote in message
> news:1124852672.6a09312da6ceee89f29b6a8aae6c53b4@t eranews...
> > My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No
> > problems at all.
> >
> > I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and
> > shorter landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy
> > when you land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country
> > and facing limited landout options.
> >
> > -ted/2NO
>
> I agree with the idea of flaps not being a reason to limit your first glider
> purchase. However I don't agree with the old wives tale of flapped gliders
> being safer due to their much slower landing speeds and therefore shorter
> stopping distances. An appropriately flown approach and touchdown with a
> modern standard class glider against the same in a 15 meter ship shows that
> they touch down at basically the same speed and stop in the same distance.
> What is much more important but gets less press is what kind of brakes you
> have and if they work well.
>
> Casey Lenox
> KC
> Phoenix

[01-- Zero One]

"old wives tale."



Now this is going to be a fun thread to watch for a while! :-)



Larry Goddard

01 "Zero One"







"Kilo Charlie" <NOSPAMkilocharlie.cox.net> wrote in message
news:mpSOe.124815$E95.33431@fed1read01:

> "Ted Wagner" > wrote in message
> news:1124852672.6a09312da6ceee89f29b6a8aae6c53b4@t eranews...
> > My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No
> > problems at all.
> >
> > I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and
> > shorter landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy
> > when you land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country
> > and facing limited landout options.
> >
> > -ted/2NO
>
> I agree with the idea of flaps not being a reason to limit your first glider
> purchase. However I don't agree with the old wives tale of flapped gliders
> being safer due to their much slower landing speeds and therefore shorter
> stopping distances. An appropriately flown approach and touchdown with a
> modern standard class glider against the same in a 15 meter ship shows that
> they touch down at basically the same speed and stop in the same distance.
> What is much more important but gets less press is what kind of brakes you
> have and if they work well.
>
> Casey Lenox
> KC
> Phoenix

[nimbusgb]

Some flapped gliders benefit from using 0 or negative flap during the
initial part of the takeoff, a slightly higher pilot load.
Dumping or retracting flap in the late part of a landing can result in
a rapid loss of lift and resultant heavy or worse 'arrivals'.
Most gliders spin / stall charecteristics change depending on flap
setting.
Spin recovery procedure may involve flap setting.

Now what will another 1, 2 or 500 hours in unflapped gliders teach you
about all of that? Very little if anything but it may make your CFI
more confident in your workload handling capacity.
My suggestion, get some dual time, a couple of hours at least, in a
flapped 2 seater, ( IS28, Janus, Nimbus 3d whatever ) and then get the
instructor to give you an honest assesment of YOUR capabilities.

Some pilots can handle the load with 30 hours, some with a hundred
hours and some pilots are so far behind the aircraft they never will.
Its your personal capabilities that matter, there is no prescribed
point in a logbook that suddenly makes you capable of something.

Ian

[JB]

Last winter I bought a LS3. I had 200 hours flight experience and it was the
first flapped glider I've ever flown.

I had no problem using flaps in the first flight. During take-off I used 0º
as flap setting, so it handled as a standard class glider.
During free flight I used all flap settings without any trouble. LS3 flaps
are very intuitive.
Landing is a bit different as the flap in landing position produces high
drag, so high approach seems to me a better way to land. If I predict a low
approach I don't use landing setting, but rather +5º setting.
Anyway, it was very simple to adapt to the LS3 flaps.

However from what I've seen from fellow glider pilots, not all flapped
gliders are as easy. I recall some guys flying ASW20 that in take-off they
use negative flap setting (to increase aileron effectiveness, otherwise a
wing drop was very common) and in the middle of the take-off roll they put
0º setting. I recall many aborted take-offs due to wing drops.

I suggest you to talk to many people that know a lot on the glider model you
intend to buy, in order to understand the glider behaviour and
characteristics.

José Barriga


"skysailor" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
> had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
> big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
> glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
> a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
> would like some opinions concerning this.
>

[[email protected]]

I pretty much agree with KC but with one small difference. Some of the
flapped ships like the '20 have true landing flap positions. These
gliders can be landed much shorter than the Standard class ships while
maintaining equivilent safety margins.
They do require a bit more technique to get the maximium benefit. Until
those skills are developed, you just put the flaps in thermal flap
position and it will land pretty much like a standard class ship.
After mastering the glider in basic mode, the skills of using the
benefits of the flaps for better landing performance can be learned.
I can get my '27 in a much smaller place than my '28.
KC is very much right on the brake.
Good luck UH

[Roy Bourgeois]

I don't think you can answer the question by focusing only on the issue of
flaps. A better question is "How many new and different things will my
first glider have that I am not experienced with?" If the answer is only
"just flaps" - no big deal. If it's flaps plus things like no spoilers/90
degree flaps, or a drogue chute, or side mounted stick, or V tail, or large
span - then you have to be very careful that you are not over extending
yourself. My first glider did not have flaps (Phoebus B) - my son's did
(ASW-20). Both were good choices I think.

Good luck

Roy

[Derek Copeland]

Flaps are not a problem as long as you remember they
are there and remember to set them appropriately. In
many ways they can make the glider easier to fly in
terms of better approach control, and better aileron
control if negative flap is selected for the early
part of the take off ground run and after touchdown
on landing. However the ability to evolve a third arm
for operating the flap lever would be useful on occasions!

Other things to consider are:
1) Extra complication and maintenance costs.

2) Positive flap limiting speeds. You can damage things
if you fly too fast in positive settings.

3) Spin recovery becomes a bit more complicated. You
are most likely to spin when turning slowly in a thermal
with positive flap selected, in which case the first
action must be to select neutral or negative flap before
carrying out the normal spin recovery. Otherwise you
risk exceeding the flap limiting speed in the recovery
dive, which is a possible cause of several glider break-ups
and fatalities.

Basically flapped gliders should not be flown by forgetful
or disorganised pilots!

Derek Copeland
---------------------------

At 02:06 24 August 2005, Skysailor wrote:
>I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the
>past 2 years and
>had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders
>for purchase.The
>big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing
>a first
>glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that
>big a problem for
>a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped
>gliders for sale. I
>would like some opinions concerning this.
>
>

[[email protected]]

Casey is correct - a lot depends on the glider. My flapped LS6
approaches and lands at very similar speeds to Casey's LS8 (no big
surprise there). On the other hand, the Pik-20B that I occasionally
fly approaches a LOT slower and can be stopped a lot sooner than my
LS6. Lower wing loading has something to do with it, but the nature of
90 degree flaps means a slower approach is usually possible.

I like them both - and there have been times I wished my -6 had 90
degree flaps on approach! (or at least a real brake...).

LS brakes, on the other hand...Hideous small Tost drum "emergency"
brake actuated via the rudder pedals. That design task must have been
fobbed off on the newest apprentice at the LS factory. Not only does
it not provide any reassuring retardation (especially landing with no
wind - or worse still, full of water), but it's almost impossible to
steer and brake at the same time.

Kirk
66

[01-- Zero One]

You might want to look further at the brake system. On my LS-3a, which
has a similar arrangement to yours, I can stand it on the nose with the
brakes. And I have never had a particularly difficult time steering
while braking.



Larry





" > wrote in message
oups.com:

> Casey is correct - a lot depends on the glider. My flapped LS6
> approaches and lands at very similar speeds to Casey's LS8 (no big
> surprise there). On the other hand, the Pik-20B that I occasionally
> fly approaches a LOT slower and can be stopped a lot sooner than my
> LS6. Lower wing loading has something to do with it, but the nature of
> 90 degree flaps means a slower approach is usually possible.
>
> I like them both - and there have been times I wished my -6 had 90
> degree flaps on approach! (or at least a real brake...).
>
> LS brakes, on the other hand...Hideous small Tost drum "emergency"
> brake actuated via the rudder pedals. That design task must have been
> fobbed off on the newest apprentice at the LS factory. Not only does
> it not provide any reassuring retardation (especially landing with no
> wind - or worse still, full of water), but it's almost impossible to
> steer and brake at the same time.
>
> Kirk
> 66

[Kilo Charlie]

Wish that I could figure out why this is so.....I've pulled many brakes on multiple gliders and cleaned, sanded, scuffed and lubed any parts that needed to be and have never found any of them to be worth more than a barely noticable effect in deceleration. There was a mod where the brake was split in order to be more effective several years ago that some folks tried but in the end most said that they didn't think it was worth it. No doubt that the hydraulic brakes will put them all on their noses but it's a rare drum that will.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

[Bill Daniels]

There's an outfit in California called "Vintage Brakes" that will overhaul Tost drum brakes with excellent, long lasting results. They did the drum brake on a Mile High Gliding 2-33 and it's equal to the hydraulic disk brake on the other 2-33.

Bill Daniels
"Kilo Charlie" > wrote in message news:hcaPe.124896$E95.65391@fed1read01...
Wish that I could figure out why this is so.....I've pulled many brakes on multiple gliders and cleaned, sanded, scuffed and lubed any parts that needed to be and have never found any of them to be worth more than a barely noticable effect in deceleration. There was a mod where the brake was split in order to be more effective several years ago that some folks tried but in the end most said that they didn't think it was worth it. No doubt that the hydraulic brakes will put them all on their noses but it's a rare drum that will.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

[Kilo Charlie]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message ...
There's an outfit in California called "Vintage Brakes" that will overhaul Tost drum brakes with excellent, long lasting results. They did the drum brake on a Mile High Gliding 2-33 and it's equal to the hydraulic disk brake on the other 2-33.

Bill Daniels


Ahhhh....maybe my winter project! Got any more contact info?

Thanks,
Casey

[Bruce Hoult]

In article . com>,
"skysailor" > wrote:

> I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
> had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
> big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
> glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
> a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
> would like some opinions concerning this.

I don't think flaps are a big deal if you can cope with a manual
transmission car ;-)

Looking back, i started flying my first flapped glider (an original
model Janus) when I had 75 hours total time and was signed off on it 3.5
months later when I had 110 hours -- the club had a ten flights/ten
hours requirement for it due to not only the flaps but also the
sensitive all-flying tailplane and aerotowing on a belly hook (and also
perhaps quite a bit of "the club's shiny new toy" syndrome). So I did
10 flights in it (hmm ... and only 7 hours) in those three months, but
also 11.5 hours in a Club Libelle, 8 hours in a Std Libelle, 7 hours in
a K6 and 3 hours between Blanik and K13.

I think you should do a few flights in a flapped two-seater (such as the
Janus) before flying a flapped single-seater and see how you go.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[Jean]

Flaps = more opportunities for a mistake as you have something else to care
of ...

It's built for:
- better XC task average speed

It helps:
- For take-off, with negative setting
- For xc landing in a short field

It makes things more difficult:
- When landing - If flaps set to "Landing" but you're too low
- When landing in turbulence - significantly less controls efficiency
- When landing at too-low speed - regaining speed takes long long
- When spiraling - less controls efficiency

In short - If you're not yet an reaonably experienced XC pilot, better to
avoid flaps ... Go for unflapped ship then start using your wing ballasts
first then if you still want to improve your perf then only ...

Jean

[[email protected]]

Then you must have double-jointed ankles!

Seriously, what it needs is a bigger wheel, a hydraulic disc brake, and
activation by a squeeze lever on the stick.

Which is sorta what DG is offering on new LS8s and 10, isn't it? Except
they may use the spoiler lever for the brakes - due to trim lever on
stick.

I'm happy for you that your LS3 has a working brake - it's probably
been worked on, which I agree I should do to mine soon. Forturnately,
I now fly off a grass field and stopping is not a great problem.

But it's nice that the glider manufacturers have over the years come to
realize that gliders are often flown from paved strips - and now
provide decent brakes.

Kirk
66

[Mike the Strike]

I also concur that I have had more trouble with brakes - particularly
the ill-conceived heel brakes that are clearly the work of Satan -
and a CG hook during cross-wind aerotows than I ever had with flaps.
(I do love my stick-mounted hydraulic disk brake!)

My first glider was a flapped Jantar-1 and I have a bunch of time in an
ASW-20. Flaps are a little more complicated, but give you more landing
control and more performance for your money.

Unless you're a complete doofus, you should manage the transition to
flaps without any problems. Just read the manual, listen to your
instructor and practice.

Your big kahunas sound like a bunch of old women!

Mike

Discus 2 WA

[Vic7]

The big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for a low time pilot and why?

To answer your questions: no, and I have no idea why they think so.

I bought my first glider (Mini-Nimbus) shortly before I took my checkride. I had far fewer hours than you. My very first flight in a flapped ship was after I passed my checkride and the insurance company allowed me to fly my own ship.

The flaps were a complete non-event. I was then and am still today much more concerned with remembering that I have retractable gear. The flaps help when you care to use them, but frankly, were never a bit of distraction from the "blue up/green down" aspects of flying.

Some folks here have spoken of getting in trouble with a positive flaps setting when too low on final. Trust me: if you are remotely paying attention, you will notice a distinct nose down attitude that tells you the flaps are set positive. Changing them to neutral will bring the nose up and also give you an instant but slight acceleration. Both of those are good if low on final.

If you are the sort who would be low on final and not think to adjust your flaps setting, perhaps flying is not the sport for you regardless what class plane you are flying. Furthermore, flaps allow you to always arrive a bit high, since you can shed altitude more quickly than some other ships.

Buy the best ship you can afford and learn to fly it well, whatever it is. And remember to have fun.

Steve

[HL Falbaum]

I agree with 95% of your statement. Having "signed off" quite a few low
time pilots for their first time fllight in flaps, and BTW CG hooks, I have
not had anyone have a big problem with flaps. Just remember that the "full
bore" landing flaps are not to be used till *after* the turn to final *and *
you have the field made no matter what.
However, I worry that some will misinterpret what you said about reducing
flaps if low on final. This must only be done very carefully or not at all,
as there is a loss of altitude and a sinking feeling. It must be done early
in the final approach phase or it won't do much good and will lose altitude.
The "spot in the windshield" must be established early. Since this "spot"
must allow for increased sink on short final, it should not be the very
beginning of the runway. Having "experimented" with this with a ASW27, the
loss is about 50 feet. I have not flown the like of a PIK or HP, but have
flown a ASW20B--I'd bet the HP would lose more. Just dont try this for the
first time at 100 ft height--try at 2000ft in your ship and see what
happens.

--
Hartley Falbaum CFIG USA


"Vic7" > wrote in message
...
>
> skysailor Wrote:
>> The big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
>> glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for a
>> low time pilot and why?
>
> To answer your questions: no, and I have no idea why they think so.
>
> I bought my first glider (Mini-Nimbus) shortly before I took my
> checkride. I had far fewer hours than you. My very first flight in a
> flapped ship was after I passed my checkride and the insurance company
> allowed me to fly my own ship.
>
> The flaps were a complete non-event. I was then and am still today
> much more concerned with remembering that I have retractable gear. The
> flaps help when you care to use them, but frankly, were never a bit of
> distraction from the "blue up/green down" aspects of flying.
>
> Some folks here have spoken of getting in trouble with a positive flaps
> setting when too low on final. Trust me: if you are remotely paying
> attention, you will notice a distinct nose down attitude that tells you
> the flaps are set positive. Changing them to neutral will bring the
> nose up and also give you an instant but slight acceleration. Both of
> those are good if low on final.
>
> If you are the sort who would be low on final and not think to adjust
> your flaps setting, perhaps flying is not the sport for you regardless
> what class plane you are flying. Furthermore, flaps allow you to
> always arrive a bit high, since you can shed altitude more quickly than
> some other ships.
>
> Buy the best ship you can afford and learn to fly it well, whatever it
> is. And remember to have fun.
>
> Steve
>
>
> --
> Vic7

[Udo Rumpf]

I have not experienced any drop,
provided the approach is flown at proper "approach speed".

When the flap is retracted from any position even as high as
+90 deg. at a constant rate and the "same speed" is
maintained no drop is experienced. In fact the rate of decent
is reduced. Since one is flying at the proper speed, the sink
rate with zero flap is less by a factor of five or more.
This requires that the nose is raised at the same time as the
flap is retracted.
Only when the fence or thresholds is reach should the
glider be slowed below the approach speed.
Once experience has been gained a more flexible approaches
are possible.

Naturedly if you fly 1.3 time the stall speed for given flap setting
you will invite trouble. This would be about 40 kt. with +90 deg.
If you were to reduce the flap to zero at that speed you would stall
or if one still has flying speed the sink rate would be high.

For the first time flapped only glider pilot, I recommend the following.
If the wing loading is around seven lb the approach speed should
be about 55 Kt . Take a high tow, play with the flaps and maintain
proper speed of 55 kt at all flap settings. Enter the landing pattern.
You should have all the correct heights at all points along the way.
The only difference, with a flapped only glider fly it closer in on final
by about 50% for the same height. Crank in full flaps and point the
glider to the fence. Maintain 55 kt. The sense you will have is
standing in the cockpit but the fuselage only will point down about
30 deg.. Hold that nose down position till about 10-15 feet off the
ground. Round out positively and let the glider settle on it own,
You will not have the shortest landing but a save first experience.
( When I made my first flight I took the glider to an airport with a very
long grass run way, as my club at the time only had a 2000 ft strip.)
Regards
Udo


"HL Falbaum" > wrote in message
...
>I agree with 95% of your statement. Having "signed off" quite a few low
>time pilots for their first time fllight in flaps, and BTW CG hooks, I have
>not had anyone have a big problem with flaps. Just remember that the "full
>bore" landing flaps are not to be used till *after* the turn to final *and
>* you have the field made no matter what.
> However, I worry that some will misinterpret what you said about reducing
> flaps if low on final. This must only be done very carefully or not at
> all, as there is a loss of altitude and a sinking feeling. It must be done
> early in the final approach phase or it won't do much good and will lose
> altitude. The "spot in the windshield" must be established early. Since
> this "spot" must allow for increased sink on short final, it should not be
> the very beginning of the runway. Having "experimented" with this with a
> ASW27, the loss is about 50 feet. I have not flown the like of a PIK or
> HP, but have flown a ASW20B--I'd bet the HP would lose more. Just dont try
> this for the first time at 100 ft height--try at 2000ft in your ship and
> see what happens.
>
> --
> Hartley Falbaum CFIG USA
>
>
> "Vic7" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> skysailor Wrote:
>>> The big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
>>> glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for a
>>> low time pilot and why?
>>
>> To answer your questions: no, and I have no idea why they think so.
>>
>> I bought my first glider (Mini-Nimbus) shortly before I took my
>> checkride. I had far fewer hours than you. My very first flight in a
>> flapped ship was after I passed my checkride and the insurance company
>> allowed me to fly my own ship.
>>
>> The flaps were a complete non-event. I was then and am still today
>> much more concerned with remembering that I have retractable gear. The
>> flaps help when you care to use them, but frankly, were never a bit of
>> distraction from the "blue up/green down" aspects of flying.
>>
>> Some folks here have spoken of getting in trouble with a positive flaps
>> setting when too low on final. Trust me: if you are remotely paying
>> attention, you will notice a distinct nose down attitude that tells you
>> the flaps are set positive. Changing them to neutral will bring the
>> nose up and also give you an instant but slight acceleration. Both of
>> those are good if low on final.
>>
>> If you are the sort who would be low on final and not think to adjust
>> your flaps setting, perhaps flying is not the sport for you regardless
>> what class plane you are flying. Furthermore, flaps allow you to
>> always arrive a bit high, since you can shed altitude more quickly than
>> some other ships.
>>
>> Buy the best ship you can afford and learn to fly it well, whatever it
>> is. And remember to have fun.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> --
>> Vic7
>
>

[Bert Willing]

I second that. I have retracted from 55 deg flap to thermal position less
than 5 meters above the runway, and if memory serves me right, I didn't
crash :-)

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Udo Rumpf" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
>I have not experienced any drop,
> provided the approach is flown at proper "approach speed".
>
> When the flap is retracted from any position even as high as
> +90 deg. at a constant rate and the "same speed" is
> maintained no drop is experienced. In fact the rate of decent
> is reduced. Since one is flying at the proper speed, the sink
> rate with zero flap is less by a factor of five or more.
> This requires that the nose is raised at the same time as the
> flap is retracted.
> Only when the fence or thresholds is reach should the
> glider be slowed below the approach speed.
> Once experience has been gained a more flexible approaches
> are possible.
>
> Naturedly if you fly 1.3 time the stall speed for given flap setting
> you will invite trouble. This would be about 40 kt. with +90 deg.
> If you were to reduce the flap to zero at that speed you would stall
> or if one still has flying speed the sink rate would be high.
>
> For the first time flapped only glider pilot, I recommend the following.
> If the wing loading is around seven lb the approach speed should
> be about 55 Kt . Take a high tow, play with the flaps and maintain
> proper speed of 55 kt at all flap settings. Enter the landing pattern.
> You should have all the correct heights at all points along the way.
> The only difference, with a flapped only glider fly it closer in on final
> by about 50% for the same height. Crank in full flaps and point the
> glider to the fence. Maintain 55 kt. The sense you will have is
> standing in the cockpit but the fuselage only will point down about
> 30 deg.. Hold that nose down position till about 10-15 feet off the
> ground. Round out positively and let the glider settle on it own,
> You will not have the shortest landing but a save first experience.
> ( When I made my first flight I took the glider to an airport with a very
> long grass run way, as my club at the time only had a 2000 ft strip.)
> Regards
> Udo
>
>
> "HL Falbaum" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I agree with 95% of your statement. Having "signed off" quite a few low
>>time pilots for their first time fllight in flaps, and BTW CG hooks, I
>>have not had anyone have a big problem with flaps. Just remember that the
>>"full bore" landing flaps are not to be used till *after* the turn to
>>final *and * you have the field made no matter what.
>> However, I worry that some will misinterpret what you said about reducing
>> flaps if low on final. This must only be done very carefully or not at
>> all, as there is a loss of altitude and a sinking feeling. It must be
>> done early in the final approach phase or it won't do much good and will
>> lose altitude. The "spot in the windshield" must be established early.
>> Since this "spot" must allow for increased sink on short final, it should
>> not be the very beginning of the runway. Having "experimented" with this
>> with a ASW27, the loss is about 50 feet. I have not flown the like of a
>> PIK or HP, but have flown a ASW20B--I'd bet the HP would lose more. Just
>> dont try this for the first time at 100 ft height--try at 2000ft in your
>> ship and see what happens.
>>
>> --
>> Hartley Falbaum CFIG USA
>>
>>
>> "Vic7" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> skysailor Wrote:
>>>> The big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a
>>>> first
>>>> glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
>>>> a
>>>> low time pilot and why?
>>>
>>> To answer your questions: no, and I have no idea why they think so.
>>>
>>> I bought my first glider (Mini-Nimbus) shortly before I took my
>>> checkride. I had far fewer hours than you. My very first flight in a
>>> flapped ship was after I passed my checkride and the insurance company
>>> allowed me to fly my own ship.
>>>
>>> The flaps were a complete non-event. I was then and am still today
>>> much more concerned with remembering that I have retractable gear. The
>>> flaps help when you care to use them, but frankly, were never a bit of
>>> distraction from the "blue up/green down" aspects of flying.
>>>
>>> Some folks here have spoken of getting in trouble with a positive flaps
>>> setting when too low on final. Trust me: if you are remotely paying
>>> attention, you will notice a distinct nose down attitude that tells you
>>> the flaps are set positive. Changing them to neutral will bring the
>>> nose up and also give you an instant but slight acceleration. Both of
>>> those are good if low on final.
>>>
>>> If you are the sort who would be low on final and not think to adjust
>>> your flaps setting, perhaps flying is not the sport for you regardless
>>> what class plane you are flying. Furthermore, flaps allow you to
>>> always arrive a bit high, since you can shed altitude more quickly than
>>> some other ships.
>>>
>>> Buy the best ship you can afford and learn to fly it well, whatever it
>>> is. And remember to have fun.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Vic7
>>
>>
>

[Roy Bourgeois]

It is interesting to see how this thread changed from a response to a
simple request for opinions about the advisability of flaps on a first ship
- to a discussion of "how to land with flaps" then "It's OK to retract
flaps on landing - because I did it" So let me please add a note of
caution to the new pilot readers: 1) Flight/ground instruction should be
done in person and by somebody who knows you and the specific glider you
are learning to fly. 2) Read and understand the POH for the glider you are
about to fly - it is more reliable than Internet postings. 3) Accept that
retracting the flaps on approach is a very dangerous maneuver for the new
pilot and the observation that some highly experienced pilots can do it
safely does not mean that you should try it.

Roy B. CFI

[Ron Gregg]

AMEN

Ron Gregg, CFI


In article >, Roy Bourgeois
> wrote:

> It is interesting to see how this thread changed from a response to a
> simple request for opinions about the advisability of flaps on a first ship
> - to a discussion of "how to land with flaps" then "It's OK to retract
> flaps on landing - because I did it" So let me please add a note of
> caution to the new pilot readers: 1) Flight/ground instruction should be
> done in person and by somebody who knows you and the specific glider you
> are learning to fly. 2) Read and understand the POH for the glider you are
> about to fly - it is more reliable than Internet postings. 3) Accept that
> retracting the flaps on approach is a very dangerous maneuver for the new
> pilot and the observation that some highly experienced pilots can do it
> safely does not mean that you should try it.
>
> Roy B. CFI
>
>
>
>

[Udo Rumpf]

None of the CFI's I knew were of help.
It takes common sense, some forethought and a competent airman
to start, regardless of how many hours you have. I my case I
made my first flight in an all flapped glider after 14 hours in Gliders
and completed my 300 km O&T after 40hours.
As well as 3 outlanding in previous attempt all with this flapped glider.
Please do not make it sound as if flying a flapped glider the first time out
is dangerous. It is no more dangerous then going solo.
Also, in my comments I provide a way to reduce the need for flap use the
first time out.
Udo


"Ron Gregg" > wrote in message
...
>
> AMEN
>
> Ron Gregg, CFI
>
>
> In article >, Roy Bourgeois
> > wrote:
>
>> It is interesting to see how this thread changed from a response to a
>> simple request for opinions about the advisability of flaps on a first
>> ship
>> - to a discussion of "how to land with flaps" then "It's OK to retract
>> flaps on landing - because I did it" So let me please add a note of
>> caution to the new pilot readers: 1) Flight/ground instruction should be
>> done in person and by somebody who knows you and the specific glider you
>> are learning to fly. 2) Read and understand the POH for the glider you
>> are
>> about to fly - it is more reliable than Internet postings. 3) Accept that
>> retracting the flaps on approach is a very dangerous maneuver for the new
>> pilot and the observation that some highly experienced pilots can do it
>> safely does not mean that you should try it.
>>
>> Roy B. CFI
>>
>>
>>
>>

[Andreas Maurer]

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:33:00 +0200, "Bert Willing"
> wrote:

>I second that. I have retracted from 55 deg flap to thermal position less
>than 5 meters above the runway, and if memory serves me right, I didn't
>crash :-)

Unlock the flap lever in your 20 at a height of about 2 meters (... if
necessary I can tell you how to do that...) and you'll get the
experience of a purely ballistic impact one second later.


I think in the end it's a question of many factors - situational
awareness (remember to pull up the nose while retracting the flaps,
remembering not to overshoot the desired setting), training, and
feeling (coordination of flap retraction, pulling on the stick and
controlling the speed).
If the pilot is alert and knows what he's doing, there is not going to
be any problem. If not, some gliders are going to punish the pilot
more than others.


Reading about Udo's story of first flying a flapped ship with 14
glider hours (most of my students have mor hours when they solo) on a
airport with a long runway because his home airport's runway is only
2.000 ft makes me think about how different the situation is in the
US/Canada compared to good ole' Europe... :)



Bye
Andreas

[Bob Salvo]

The original post referred to gliders that used flaps and divebrakes
(spoilers), not gliders that use only flaps for landing. Flap only gliders
that use flaps for landing require more accurate speed control during
approach/landings. I once saw an HP-10 (no spoilers) float the entire
length of the runway and end up in the trees at the far end, just because
the very experienced pilot did not pay attention to his approach speed. I
heard about another competent airman who flew a Schweizer 1-35 (again no
spoilers) for the first time and had trouble putting it down, so he removed
the flaps to prevent over running the runway; he landed hard, causing minor
damage to the fuselage. OTOH, on a flapped/spoilered ship, I've seen a very
experienced pilot mistake the flap control for the spoiler control and end
up in a tree just short of the runway.

"Udo Rumpf" > wrote in message
...
>
> None of the CFI's I knew were of help.
> It takes common sense, some forethought and a competent airman
> to start, regardless of how many hours you have. I my case I
> made my first flight in an all flapped glider after 14 hours in Gliders
> and completed my 300 km O&T after 40hours.
> As well as 3 outlanding in previous attempt all with this flapped glider.
> Please do not make it sound as if flying a flapped glider the first time
out
> is dangerous. It is no more dangerous then going solo.
> Also, in my comments I provide a way to reduce the need for flap use the
> first time out.
> Udo
>
>
> "Ron Gregg" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > AMEN
> >
> > Ron Gregg, CFI
> >
> >
> > In article >, Roy Bourgeois
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> It is interesting to see how this thread changed from a response to a
> >> simple request for opinions about the advisability of flaps on a first
> >> ship
> >> - to a discussion of "how to land with flaps" then "It's OK to retract
> >> flaps on landing - because I did it" So let me please add a note of
> >> caution to the new pilot readers: 1) Flight/ground instruction should
be
> >> done in person and by somebody who knows you and the specific glider
you
> >> are learning to fly. 2) Read and understand the POH for the glider you
> >> are
> >> about to fly - it is more reliable than Internet postings. 3) Accept
that
> >> retracting the flaps on approach is a very dangerous maneuver for the
new
> >> pilot and the observation that some highly experienced pilots can do
it
> >> safely does not mean that you should try it.
> >>
> >> Roy B. CFI
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>

[Doug Hoffman]

Bob Salvo wrote:
> The original post referred to gliders that used flaps and divebrakes
> (spoilers), not gliders that use only flaps for landing. Flap only gliders
> that use flaps for landing require more accurate speed control during
> approach/landings. I once saw an HP-10 (no spoilers) float the entire
> length of the runway and end up in the trees at the far end, just because
> the very experienced pilot did not pay attention to his approach speed. I
> heard about another competent airman who flew a Schweizer 1-35 (again no
> spoilers) for the first time and had trouble putting it down, so he removed
> the flaps to prevent over running the runway; he landed hard, causing minor
> damage to the fuselage. OTOH, on a flapped/spoilered ship, I've seen a very
> experienced pilot mistake the flap control for the spoiler control and end
> up in a tree just short of the runway.

Udo provides some very valuable advice that newcomers to flaps would be
wise to heed. This includes taking a high tow on your first flight,
practicing with the flaps at altitude, and assuring that the runway is
long. This is what I did on my first flight in a flapped (flaps-only)
ship. I had only about 25 hours flying anything at the time. I agree
with Udo that flaps should not be feared. Of course they must be
respected. But dumb/dangerous maneuvers can be done in any glider with
or without flaps.

Regards,

-Doug

[Udo Rumpf]

Hi Bob,
I can recite the same scenarios with conventional gliders.
During my first four seasons of flying my "dangers Glider"
A Twin Grob got bang up twice, in the last one it got written off.
In each case Pilots flying solo in it.
An other incident an Astir landed short and it got written off as well.
Shortly there after a Blanik with a CFI on board landing short running into
a fence also a write off.
All home field mishaps
This was the beginning of the end for the club and I am sad to say the club
is no longer with us.
Udo



"Bob Salvo" > wrote in message
...
> The original post referred to gliders that used flaps and divebrakes
> (spoilers), not gliders that use only flaps for landing. Flap only
> gliders
> that use flaps for landing require more accurate speed control during
> approach/landings. I once saw an HP-10 (no spoilers) float the entire
> length of the runway and end up in the trees at the far end, just because
> the very experienced pilot did not pay attention to his approach speed. I
> heard about another competent airman who flew a Schweizer 1-35 (again no
> spoilers) for the first time and had trouble putting it down, so he
> removed
> the flaps to prevent over running the runway; he landed hard, causing
> minor
> damage to the fuselage. OTOH, on a flapped/spoilered ship, I've seen a
> very
> experienced pilot mistake the flap control for the spoiler control and end
> up in a tree just short of the runway.
>
> "Udo Rumpf" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> None of the CFI's I knew were of help.
>> It takes common sense, some forethought and a competent airman
>> to start, regardless of how many hours you have. I my case I
>> made my first flight in an all flapped glider after 14 hours in Gliders
>> and completed my 300 km O&T after 40hours.
>> As well as 3 outlanding in previous attempt all with this flapped glider.
>> Please do not make it sound as if flying a flapped glider the first time
> out
>> is dangerous. It is no more dangerous then going solo.
>> Also, in my comments I provide a way to reduce the need for flap use the
>> first time out.
>> Udo
>>
>>
>> "Ron Gregg" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > AMEN
>> >
>> > Ron Gregg, CFI
>> >
>> >
>> > In article >, Roy Bourgeois
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >> It is interesting to see how this thread changed from a response to a
>> >> simple request for opinions about the advisability of flaps on a first
>> >> ship
>> >> - to a discussion of "how to land with flaps" then "It's OK to retract
>> >> flaps on landing - because I did it" So let me please add a note of
>> >> caution to the new pilot readers: 1) Flight/ground instruction should
> be
>> >> done in person and by somebody who knows you and the specific glider
> you
>> >> are learning to fly. 2) Read and understand the POH for the glider you
>> >> are
>> >> about to fly - it is more reliable than Internet postings. 3) Accept
> that
>> >> retracting the flaps on approach is a very dangerous maneuver for the
> new
>> >> pilot and the observation that some highly experienced pilots can do
> it
>> >> safely does not mean that you should try it.
>> >>
>> >> Roy B. CFI
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>
>

[Bert Willing]

Been there, done that (not properly locked the flaps when set). You need to
react very fast on the stick, and you should have carried some extra speed
before.

Of course I agree with Roy - you can do a lot of things if you have the
required experience... (and for the ASW20, I happen to have a couple of
hundred hours on that glider). As for novice counsel, a newsgroup doesn't
help anybody very much. You normally don't know where the advice comes from,
and if you really want to have advice on how to fly or what glider to buy,
you talk to instructors or experienced people *at an airfield*. Newsgroups
are rather, hm, amusing gossip?

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Andreas Maurer" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:33:00 +0200, "Bert Willing"
> > wrote:
>
>>I second that. I have retracted from 55 deg flap to thermal position less
>>than 5 meters above the runway, and if memory serves me right, I didn't
>>crash :-)
>
> Unlock the flap lever in your 20 at a height of about 2 meters (... if
> necessary I can tell you how to do that...) and you'll get the
> experience of a purely ballistic impact one second later.
>
>
> I think in the end it's a question of many factors - situational
> awareness (remember to pull up the nose while retracting the flaps,
> remembering not to overshoot the desired setting), training, and
> feeling (coordination of flap retraction, pulling on the stick and
> controlling the speed).
> If the pilot is alert and knows what he's doing, there is not going to
> be any problem. If not, some gliders are going to punish the pilot
> more than others.
>
>
> Reading about Udo's story of first flying a flapped ship with 14
> glider hours (most of my students have mor hours when they solo) on a
> airport with a long runway because his home airport's runway is only
> 2.000 ft makes me think about how different the situation is in the
> US/Canada compared to good ole' Europe... :)
>
>
>
> Bye
> Andreas

[Doug Hoffman]

Bert Willing wrote:
> Been there, done that (not properly locked the flaps when set). You need to
> react very fast on the stick, and you should have carried some extra speed
> before.
>
> Of course I agree with Roy - you can do a lot of things if you have the
> required experience... (and for the ASW20, I happen to have a couple of
> hundred hours on that glider). As for novice counsel, a newsgroup doesn't
> help anybody very much. You normally don't know where the advice comes from,
> and if you really want to have advice on how to fly or what glider to buy,
> you talk to instructors or experienced people *at an airfield*. Newsgroups
> are rather, hm, amusing gossip?

I agree that one must be careful when getting "advice" from a newsgroup
or lots of places on the internet. In my case I first sought
information on how to fly my RS-15 (flaps only) from at least three
different CFIGs at two different airfields. The only "help" I got was
a lecture from one CFIG in California on how flaps only could get me in
trouble in strong lift just beneath a cloud. But I really don't blame
those CFIGs because they simply had no experience with this type of
glider. As it turned out I received a lot of very valuable information
from people belnging to a Yahoo Group dedicated to that type of glider.
But your point about being careful of the source of information on the
internet is a good one.

Btw, regarding advice on what glider to buy: The head of the FBO was
convinced I could not handle the RS and would likely spin it in
straight away. Since I was relying on him at the time to get my
license, that became an "issue". We had words. I eventually
discovered the flight characteristics of the RS to be very gentle and
an overall pleasure to fly. Compared to the G-103 which I had been
training in the RS felt "spin-proof". But I was needlessly scared
stiff for my first flight in the RS.

Regards,

-Doug

[Jack]

Yeah... What Udo and Steve said... EGAD!!! THOSE FLAPS!!!

Jack Womack

[Jack]

Yeah... What Udo and Steve said... EGAD!!! THOSE FLAPS!!!

Jack Womack

[Eric Greenwell]

Derek Copeland wrote:

> 3) Spin recovery becomes a bit more complicated. You
> are most likely to spin when turning slowly in a thermal
> with positive flap selected, in which case the first
> action must be to select neutral or negative flap before
> carrying out the normal spin recovery. Otherwise you
> risk exceeding the flap limiting speed in the recovery
> dive, which is a possible cause of several glider break-ups
> and fatalities.

Be sure to read and heed the manual. In the ASW 20 and ASH 26, for
example, selecting negative flap is used to halt the spin more quickly,
not just to avoid potential overspeeding for the thermalling flap
position. In those gliders, selecting negative flap may be sufficient to
stop the spin with no further action.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA