possible FAA action... flight or fight?

[[email protected]]

I got in a little trouble with the FAA and they want to take my license
for 6 months. Now their case isn't too strong (and based very much on
the subjectivity of "safe" and not on any clear cut violation of a
FAR). I'm trying to decide whether to fight it (expensive attorney
fees) or just suck it up and take some time off flying (which I
desperately don't want to do since I fly a lot and use my plane for
business).

1. Will this follow me the rest of my life or is it like speeding
where after so many years (3, etc) it's off your record?

2. What are the implications of having a violation on my record if I
decide to get a flying job in the future? How seriously do employers
look at violations? Is it a thing where I won't even get called in
for an interview if I have one on my application or will they normally
call me in so I can explain things in an interview?

3. Any rough idea how it affects insurance rates if there's a
violation (like XX% or something)?

4. Is it worth fighting the FAA- how often do folks actually win?
I've only heard horror stories and it seems like a GA pilot really
doesn't have much of a chance.

5. How negotiable is the FAA regarding the 6-month suspension- have
any of you been able to talk them into something else like a shorter
time (30 days or 60 days) or maybe community service?

I would appreciate any comments from folks that have been through this
before (vs just speculation).

Frank

[Blanche]

Don't talk to us. Contact AOPA Legal Services NOW! Do not discuss
anything here -- it's public and can be used against you.

Call an aviation lawyer if you're not a member of AOPA Legal Services.

Now.

[jls]

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Don't talk to us.
Why not?

Contact AOPA Legal Services NOW! Do not discuss
> anything here -- it's public and can be used against you.

What did he possibly say that could be used against him? He never admitted
to doing anything wrong or unlawful.
>
> Call an aviation lawyer if you're not a member of AOPA Legal Services.
>
> Now.

Paranoia can destroy ya.
>
Well, maybe, but then there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to discuss
his problem with these NG's.

We had a series of violations charged at our airport and everybody got that
ol' time religion all of a sudden. An FAA agent came and carded a bunch of
us and wrote several people up. He was very courteous and fair about it,
and iirc everybody who got into compliance, except for a student pilot who
had stolen a 172 and had 3 other souls aboard w/o a signoff, was let off the
hook, once they began walking the straight and narrow. It made me rather
admire the FAA for their reasonableness.

Either one of the chosen NG's is a good place for issues like the original
poster's to be discussed. And he looks to be fairly anonymous.

[Jose]

> there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to discuss
> his problem with these NG's

If one is careful and circumspect enough, yes. However, it's easy to
slip up by accident and say something here, publicly and archived, that
one might wish they hadn't, and this might adversely affect the outcome.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Hilton]

Frank,

> I got in a little trouble with the FAA and they want to take my license
> for 6 months. Now their case isn't too strong (and based very much on
> the subjectivity of "safe" and not on any clear cut violation of a
> FAR).

Come on, you leave us hanging like that! :) Seriously though, if you want
meaningful feedback you'll need to give us more details, however, your best
bet is probably to call AOPA and discuss it in private with them.

Having said that, I've seen or heard of pilots getting an 'FAA phone call'
(ONLY) for doing stupid things, so if the FAA thinks if it bad enough for 6
months, perhaps there's more to it. Also, many of the FARs are subjective
and many certificates have been revoked for 'subjective' interpretations
without it being clear cut, so don't naively think you're good there.

It might also be worthwhile to discuss this episode with a CFI and
re-examine your design making since I do detect a slight bit of
anti-autority (or whatever the text books call it).

Hilton

[BTIZ]

> 1. Will this follow me the rest of my life or is it like speeding
> where after so many years (3, etc) it's off your record?

It could, but only if you attempt to be a professional pilot and not a
weekend personal flyer.
>
> 2. What are the implications of having a violation on my record if I
> decide to get a flying job in the future? How seriously do employers
> look at violations? Is it a thing where I won't even get called in
> for an interview if I have one on my application or will they normally
> call me in so I can explain things in an interview?
>
Could be big, depends on the infraction

> 3. Any rough idea how it affects insurance rates if there's a
> violation (like XX% or something)?
>

The standard questions is "anything in the past 3 yrs", that I have seen.

> 4. Is it worth fighting the FAA- how often do folks actually win?
> I've only heard horror stories and it seems like a GA pilot really
> doesn't have much of a chance.
>
Should have paid for AOPA legal services ahead of time. Some do win, some
get a smaller slap/suspension with x hrs additional training in the area
under concern, or maybe a re-ride with the FAA to validate your certificate.

> 5. How negotiable is the FAA regarding the 6-month suspension- have
> any of you been able to talk them into something else like a shorter
> time (30 days or 60 days) or maybe community service?
>
See answer #4 above

> I would appreciate any comments from folks that have been through this
> before (vs just speculation).
>
> Frank
>

Not been through it, just know others who have.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> I got in a little trouble with the FAA and they want to take my license
> for 6 months. Now their case isn't too strong (and based very much on
> the subjectivity of "safe" and not on any clear cut violation of a
> FAR). I'm trying to decide whether to fight it (expensive attorney
> fees) or just suck it up and take some time off flying (which I
> desperately don't want to do since I fly a lot and use my plane for
> business).

There's simply too many variables here to offer specific advice or
uneducated opinion. At the very least you will want to consult with a
lawyer before taking any action. The big thing to keep in mind is that
enforcement actions are adjudicated under administrative law which has
different standards of evidence than what you see on Law and Order.
There is no presumption of innocence so if it is your subjective
interpretation of the FARs versus the FAA's, you stand a very good
chance of losing.

As for the lack of a clear-cut violation, there are plenty of "gotcha"
clauses to make sure they can always get you on something.

One thing you've not given us is where you are in the process. Were you
invited to an informal conference at all, or are they just going
straight after you? If they've already decided to send you straight to
the firing squad, then the only risk of fighting is to your wallet. If
on the other hand they're offering a "plea bargain" of sorts and you
lose the fight, then you risk having the book thrown at you.

-cwk.

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:
> I got in a little trouble with the FAA and they want to take my license
> for 6 months. Now their case isn't too strong (and based very much on
> the subjectivity of "safe" and not on any clear cut violation of a
> FAR). I'm trying to decide whether to fight it (expensive attorney
> fees) or just suck it up and take some time off flying (which I
> desperately don't want to do since I fly a lot and use my plane for
> business).
>
> 1. Will this follow me the rest of my life or is it like speeding
> where after so many years (3, etc) it's off your record?
>
> 2. What are the implications of having a violation on my record if I
> decide to get a flying job in the future? How seriously do employers
> look at violations? Is it a thing where I won't even get called in
> for an interview if I have one on my application or will they normally
> call me in so I can explain things in an interview?
>
> 3. Any rough idea how it affects insurance rates if there's a
> violation (like XX% or something)?
>
> 4. Is it worth fighting the FAA- how often do folks actually win?
> I've only heard horror stories and it seems like a GA pilot really
> doesn't have much of a chance.
>
> 5. How negotiable is the FAA regarding the 6-month suspension- have
> any of you been able to talk them into something else like a shorter
> time (30 days or 60 days) or maybe community service?
>
> I would appreciate any comments from folks that have been through this
> before (vs just speculation).

Are you an AOPA member? I don't know the answers to your questions, but
if you are an AOPA member it would be worth a call to them.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

jls wrote:
> "Blanche" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Don't talk to us.
>
> Why not?
>
> Contact AOPA Legal Services NOW! Do not discuss
>
>>anything here -- it's public and can be used against you.
>
>
> What did he possibly say that could be used against him? He never admitted
> to doing anything wrong or unlawful.

Not yet, but the thread could easily develop into details that might not
be helpful.


>>Call an aviation lawyer if you're not a member of AOPA Legal Services.
>>
>>Now.
>
>
> Paranoia can destroy ya.

Yes, but "only the paranoid survive" to quote a famous businessman.


> Well, maybe, but then there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to discuss
> his problem with these NG's.

A lawyer could give you lots of reasons not to have such a discussion here.


> We had a series of violations charged at our airport and everybody got that
> ol' time religion all of a sudden. An FAA agent came and carded a bunch of
> us and wrote several people up. He was very courteous and fair about it,
> and iirc everybody who got into compliance, except for a student pilot who
> had stolen a 172 and had 3 other souls aboard w/o a signoff, was let off the
> hook, once they began walking the straight and narrow. It made me rather
> admire the FAA for their reasonableness.

The trouble is that the FAA isn't reasonable or unreasonable, its
various employees are or are not reasonable. The complication is that
you don't know in advance which one will show up.


Matt

[TaxSrv]

"Matt Whiting" wrote:
> >
> > What did he possibly say that could be used against him? He never
admitted
> > to doing anything wrong or unlawful.
>
> Not yet, but the thread could easily develop into details that might
not
> be helpful.
>
That would require an FAA employee, deciding to "take a shot" and spend
hours browsing all the discussion groups on the net to try and connect
facts posed under a pseudonym to their violation case. If they have
proposed a sanction, that means they feel they have the facts to meet
their burden of proof. Why would they spend such time? All orig poster
has to do is change the date and location of the violation, and the type
aircraft. This denies the FAA any ability to prove the poster is the
violator, as if such evidence to be potentially introduced in litigation
were not rather bizarre and all that important.

Fred F.

[jls]

"TaxSrv" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
> > >
> > > What did he possibly say that could be used against him? He never
> admitted
> > > to doing anything wrong or unlawful.
> >
> > Not yet, but the thread could easily develop into details that might
> not
> > be helpful.
> >
> That would require an FAA employee, deciding to "take a shot" and spend
> hours browsing all the discussion groups on the net to try and connect
> facts posed under a pseudonym to their violation case. If they have
> proposed a sanction, that means they feel they have the facts to meet
> their burden of proof. Why would they spend such time? All orig poster
> has to do is change the date and location of the violation, and the type
> aircraft. This denies the FAA any ability to prove the poster is the
> violator, as if such evidence to be potentially introduced in litigation
> were not rather bizarre and all that important.
>
> Fred F.
>

Yes, a voice of reason. The questions and discussion can be posed
anonymously and as hypotheticals. Therefore, no admissions against penal
or civil interest.

[Steve Foley]

Personally, I wouldn't be bothered too much by a six-month suspension. I
think when they pull your certificate, you need to re-test for everything
again. Depending on what ratings you have, that may get expensive. I know
for the private you'll need three hours in the past 60 days in preparation
for the test.

What I wonder about is what having that on your 'record' may do in the
future. What comes to mind is the guy who pleaded to indecent exposure for
taking a leak in public. The $50 fine was much easier than hiring a lawyer.
Many years later he finds out that he must now register as a sex offender.

What happens when they decide that your certificate is no longer good for
life (like they did with the Firearms ID)? You need to re-apply, and they
deny you or hold you up because you once lost it?

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I got in a little trouble with the FAA and they want to take my license
> for 6 months. Now their case isn't too strong (and based very much on
> the subjectivity of "safe" and not on any clear cut violation of a
> FAR). I'm trying to decide whether to fight it (expensive attorney
> fees) or just suck it up and take some time off flying (which I
> desperately don't want to do since I fly a lot and use my plane for
> business).
>
> 1. Will this follow me the rest of my life or is it like speeding
> where after so many years (3, etc) it's off your record?
>
> 2. What are the implications of having a violation on my record if I
> decide to get a flying job in the future? How seriously do employers
> look at violations? Is it a thing where I won't even get called in
> for an interview if I have one on my application or will they normally
> call me in so I can explain things in an interview?
>
> 3. Any rough idea how it affects insurance rates if there's a
> violation (like XX% or something)?
>
> 4. Is it worth fighting the FAA- how often do folks actually win?
> I've only heard horror stories and it seems like a GA pilot really
> doesn't have much of a chance.
>
> 5. How negotiable is the FAA regarding the 6-month suspension- have
> any of you been able to talk them into something else like a shorter
> time (30 days or 60 days) or maybe community service?
>
> I would appreciate any comments from folks that have been through this
> before (vs just speculation).
>
> Frank
>

[Lou]

Things to use against you in your original statement:
1: "based very much on the subjectivity of "safe" and not on any clear
cut violation"
If saftey is just subjective to you, then maybe you where in
violation.
2: "since I fly a lot and use my plane for business"
Sounds like your not a commercial pilot but being paid to fly.
CFI maybe? What unsafe things are you teaching?
3: "violation on my record if I decide to get a flying job in the
future?"
Quite possibly you've already applied for a job and this has come
up before.

[OtisWinslow]

What did they accuse you of and what promted it? Kind of hard to offer much
advice without knowing what the deal is.


> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I got in a little trouble with the FAA and they want to take my license
> for 6 months. Now their case isn't too strong (and based very much on
> the subjectivity of "safe" and not on any clear cut violation of a
> FAR). I'm trying to decide whether to fight it (expensive attorney
> fees) or just suck it up and take some time off flying (which I
> desperately don't want to do since I fly a lot and use my plane for
> business).
>
> 1. Will this follow me the rest of my life or is it like speeding
> where after so many years (3, etc) it's off your record?
>
> 2. What are the implications of having a violation on my record if I
> decide to get a flying job in the future? How seriously do employers
> look at violations? Is it a thing where I won't even get called in
> for an interview if I have one on my application or will they normally
> call me in so I can explain things in an interview?
>
> 3. Any rough idea how it affects insurance rates if there's a
> violation (like XX% or something)?
>
> 4. Is it worth fighting the FAA- how often do folks actually win?
> I've only heard horror stories and it seems like a GA pilot really
> doesn't have much of a chance.
>
> 5. How negotiable is the FAA regarding the 6-month suspension- have
> any of you been able to talk them into something else like a shorter
> time (30 days or 60 days) or maybe community service?
>
> I would appreciate any comments from folks that have been through this
> before (vs just speculation).
>
> Frank
>

[[email protected]]

Frank
I'd suggest you give Glenn McGoverin (sp) in New Orleans a call. He
specializes in aviation matters such as this and helped me out ten
years ago at a very modest cost. At least a chat with him is worth the
call. He is an experienced pilot, has his own Cessna 206 and produces
documentaries in addition to practicing law there in New Orleans.
Please tell him I said hello and I'm still spraying.
Best Regards
Rocky Kemp

[RST Engineering]

You may want to see a doctor about that.

{;-)


Jim

> wrote in message
oups.com...

> Please tell him I said hello and I'm still spraying.

[[email protected]]

Unfortunately I'm not an AOPA member though of course right now I'm
wishing I was.

I've purposely kept the description of my situation vague for the
reasons several of you have mentioned. I appreciate all the response
and help.

I was most interested in real-world experiences ("this happened to me
once...") so I could get a flavor of what to expect with the FAA.

So far I believe they're open to plea bargaining though I'm still
trying to decide what my position needs to be when I go in to the
"informal" interview with their attorney.

I'm contacting an attorney though my purpose in bringing up this
subject with all of you was to get a broader perspective.

Thanks again for the advice and concern.

Frank

[TaxSrv]

> wrote:
> So far I believe they're open to plea bargaining though I'm still
> trying to decide what my position needs to be when I go in to the
> "informal" interview with their attorney.
>
> I'm contacting an attorney though my purpose in bringing up this
> subject with all of you was to get a broader perspective.
>

I don't have experience with FAA, but many years with other fed civil
enforcement. If similar, they don't have to "bargain" with you,
unrepresented, if they don't wish to. An attorney experienced with FAA,
however, can assess any weaknesses in their case and bargain along those
lines. He/she also can judge whether their proposed sanction is harsher
than typical for the violation and argue that. To the contrary, as you
suggest, if they will bargain with you alone to satisfactory result,
then you save on attorney fees.

Fred F.

[Michael]

> I was most interested in real-world experiences ("this happened to me
> once...") so I could get a flavor of what to expect with the FAA.

Unfortunately, given my experience it's too late to do anything but get
an attorney and hope for the best. Once they've gone as far as setting
the penalty, it's pretty much too late to do anything else. They're
not going to back off now, and your chances of prevailing in
administrative court are low.

Remember, you are considered an interested party. Despite all the
experience we have with FAA inspectors out to get people, the inspector
is considered impartial. Therefore, if it's your word against his,
you're not going to win.

Michael

[[email protected]]

TaxSrv wrote:
> > wrote:
> > So far I believe they're open to plea bargaining though I'm still
> > trying to decide what my position needs to be when I go in to the
> > "informal" interview with their attorney.
> >
> > I'm contacting an attorney though my purpose in bringing up this
> > subject with all of you was to get a broader perspective.
> >
>
> I don't have experience with FAA, but many years with other fed civil
> enforcement. If similar, they don't have to "bargain" with you,
> unrepresented, if they don't wish to. An attorney experienced with FAA,
> however, can assess any weaknesses in their case and bargain along those
> lines.

Keep in mind that under administrative rules, they don't have to
bargain with anybody, lawyer or no, if they do not wish to.

If they can cut a deal with you up front, it's less time and paperwork
for them, and depending on the incident, inspector, FSDO, and phase of
the moon, having a lawyer there may compel them to cut a deal, or throw
the book at you. I wouldn't go in without at least consulting a lawyer,
but sometimes you catch more flies with honey. If the lawyer is not a
local, it might be helpful to consult one of the more experienced local
CFIs or a pro pilot you know who may know the people you'll be dealing
with.

-cwk.

[TaxSrv]

> wrote:
> ...
> having a lawyer there may compel them to cut a deal, or throw
> the book at you.

The orig poster is already at the level where he's talking to an FAA
attorney, so FAA is not going to react negatively to the appearance of
an attorney. I suspect that they'd prefer to talk to an attorney at
this level, rather than arguing with a violator who's not doing it
correctly or relevantly.

Fred F.

[Cy Galley]

FILE a NASA report if 10 days hasn't gone by.


"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
...
> Personally, I wouldn't be bothered too much by a six-month suspension. I
> think when they pull your certificate, you need to re-test for everything
> again. Depending on what ratings you have, that may get expensive. I know
> for the private you'll need three hours in the past 60 days in preparation
> for the test.
>
> What I wonder about is what having that on your 'record' may do in the
> future. What comes to mind is the guy who pleaded to indecent exposure for
> taking a leak in public. The $50 fine was much easier than hiring a
> lawyer.
> Many years later he finds out that he must now register as a sex offender.
>
> What happens when they decide that your certificate is no longer good for
> life (like they did with the Firearms ID)? You need to re-apply, and they
> deny you or hold you up because you once lost it?
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> I got in a little trouble with the FAA and they want to take my license
>> for 6 months. Now their case isn't too strong (and based very much on
>> the subjectivity of "safe" and not on any clear cut violation of a
>> FAR). I'm trying to decide whether to fight it (expensive attorney
>> fees) or just suck it up and take some time off flying (which I
>> desperately don't want to do since I fly a lot and use my plane for
>> business).
>>
>> 1. Will this follow me the rest of my life or is it like speeding
>> where after so many years (3, etc) it's off your record?
>>
>> 2. What are the implications of having a violation on my record if I
>> decide to get a flying job in the future? How seriously do employers
>> look at violations? Is it a thing where I won't even get called in
>> for an interview if I have one on my application or will they normally
>> call me in so I can explain things in an interview?
>>
>> 3. Any rough idea how it affects insurance rates if there's a
>> violation (like XX% or something)?
>>
>> 4. Is it worth fighting the FAA- how often do folks actually win?
>> I've only heard horror stories and it seems like a GA pilot really
>> doesn't have much of a chance.
>>
>> 5. How negotiable is the FAA regarding the 6-month suspension- have
>> any of you been able to talk them into something else like a shorter
>> time (30 days or 60 days) or maybe community service?
>>
>> I would appreciate any comments from folks that have been through this
>> before (vs just speculation).
>>
>> Frank
>>
>
>

[Roger]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 07:34:23 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>You may want to see a doctor about that.

I thought it was off to the vet when they do that.<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>{;-)
>
>
>Jim
>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>> Please tell him I said hello and I'm still spraying.
>

[Dave Stadt]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 07:34:23 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> > wrote:
>
> >You may want to see a doctor about that.
>
> I thought it was off to the vet when they do that.<:-))

If he hits the fire hydrant 8 out of 10 times he is probably OK.

> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
> >
> >{;-)
> >
> >
> >Jim
> >
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> >> Please tell him I said hello and I'm still spraying.
> >

[Dana M. Hague]

On 24 Aug 2005 14:16:33 -0700, wrote:

>I got in a little trouble with the FAA and they want to take my license...
>I'm trying to decide whether to fight it...

Frank, FWIW, I've been up against them three times. On none of the
occasions did I hire an attorney, couldn't afford it, though some
advice (like not volunteering any information AT ALL) on the third one
would have been useful.

The first time I was guilty as hell and stupid too (doing snap rolls
on downwind in the traffic pattern is stupid, which is what comes of
being a young guy with his first airplane). They proposed $3000 civil
penalty or 3 months suspension; I bargained them down to $500, in 5
monthly installments.

The second time I wasn't guilty (of their laundry list of "violations"
arising from a forced landing) and had witnesses to prove it, and they
dropped it.

The third time I wasn't guilty but they had a lying witness (a guy who
hates all airplanes). I accepted a 3 month suspension (bargained down
from longer if I recall) since (though I didn't tell them this!) I had
just disassembled my airplane for a recover job and wouldn't be flying
for awhile anyway.

All this was some years ago.

-Dana
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