Question about training costs

[Tolwyn]

I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
http://www.flywsa.com/

But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
Private Pilot Course
8 Weeks long
Ground School (60 hrs)
40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
10 Hours Solo 172R/S
1 Multimedia instruction kit
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride

$10,600.00

I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
Oil Prices)

If I go the commercial route
Private Pilot $10,600
Instrument Rating $14,200
Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800

332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
47 Total Multi-Engine Hours

$53,700 Total

Just thought I'd check before making the investment.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)

[BTIZ]

it's nice that they break it out..
do the math and it adds up to over $10K,
40hrs dual @$106 + $39 = 5800
10hrs solo @106 = 1060
24hrs pre/post mission briefs @39/hr = $936
60hrs of ground school at $39/hr for the instructor, that is a $2340 ground
school ONE ON ONE course, most can be found for 600-800, with more than one
student in the class.
Plus 2hr for the check ride @$106 = 212

They must be throwing in the MultiMedia instruction kit with the $2340
ground school, and I'd be betting that it is not one on one instruction for
60hrs.

compare prices at www.westairaviation.com Las Vegas NV (VGT),
select Training, then Part 61 course.
Total is $4525 for 40hrs in a C-172 ($3400), 20 dual 20 solo, 20 dual
instruction hours ($800), FAA Medical ($85), FAA Written Test ($90), FAA
flight check exam fee ($325), books, headset, etc est at $400 cost, Ground
School $325

BT

"Tolwyn" > wrote in message
...
> I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
> http://www.flywsa.com/
>
> But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
> Private Pilot Course
> 8 Weeks long
> Ground School (60 hrs)
> 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
> 10 Hours Solo 172R/S
> 1 Multimedia instruction kit
> Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
> 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride
>
> $10,600.00
>
> I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
> Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
> school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
> Oil Prices)
>
> If I go the commercial route
> Private Pilot $10,600
> Instrument Rating $14,200
> Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
> Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
> Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800
>
> 332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
> 47 Total Multi-Engine Hours
>
> $53,700 Total
>
> Just thought I'd check before making the investment.
>
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Tolwyn wrote:
> I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
> But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
> Private Pilot Course
> 8 Weeks long
> Ground School (60 hrs)
> 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
> 10 Hours Solo 172R/S
> 1 Multimedia instruction kit
> Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
> 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride
>
> $10,600.00


Good God! That price is aimed at the most ham-fisted inept students. I got my
private license in 44 hours. I might have gotten it in a little less but I had
4 instructors before I settled in with one. Here's what it would run today at
my local FBO if I were to do it over:

Aircraft Rental 44 X $85 = 3740
Dual Instruction 22 X $35 = 770
Ground School 0
Books, etc 150
Checkride, misc crap 340
Total $5000

You don't need a ground school. You can study at home for free.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[[email protected]]

Tolwyn > wrote:
> I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
> http://www.flywsa.com/
>
> But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
> Private Pilot Course
> 8 Weeks long
> Ground School (60 hrs)
> 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
> 10 Hours Solo 172R/S
> 1 Multimedia instruction kit
> Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
> 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride
>
> $10,600.00

60 hours of *ground instruction* for private pilot? Wow.

The flight school I worked at, also in Arizona, quoted *approximately*
$8,000 for private pilot, based on approximately 50 hours -- $105/hr for
172SP (that rate has gone up since then) + $45/hr for CFI, give or take
for some ground instruction (no airplane rental) and some solo time (no
instructor), plus Cessna Private Pilot Kit ($300), written exam ($80),
other pilot supplies, stage checks and checkride.

Of course, the actual costs/hours vary from person to person. Some
people spend more time studying at home than others, and some learn
faster in the airplane than others.

[[email protected]]

Some people find a group ground-school course advantageous, others
prefer to study at home alone. Another school in Arizona had a ground
school course that was $200 for 6 weeks, meeting 2 nights/week for 2-3
hours. Between each class, students were to read two chapters in the
Jeppesen Private Pilot book. There were 12 people per class, and at the
end, most were ready to take their written exam. The good thing was that
everyone benefitted from the discussions resulting from everyone's
questions. Again, just depends what you prefer or need (group vs.
one-on-one).

[Ray]

> Good God! That price is aimed at the most ham-fisted inept students. I got my
> private license in 44 hours.

I don't think it's a good idea to be giving people the impression that
the private can be easily done in 40 hours. A lot of people do finish
in 40 hours, but most people don't. An unrealistic expectation of
finishing in 40 hours can lead to frustration. I took about 80 hours to
finish and I wouldn't consider myself inept or ham-fisted (whatever
that's supposed to mean).

- Ray

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Ray wrote:
>> Good God! That price is aimed at the most ham-fisted inept students. I got
>> my private license in 44 hours.
>
> I don't think it's a good idea to be giving people the impression that
> the private can be easily done in 40 hours. A lot of people do finish
> in 40 hours, but most people don't. An unrealistic expectation of
> finishing in 40 hours can lead to frustration. I took about 80 hours to
> finish and I wouldn't consider myself inept or ham-fisted (whatever
> that's supposed to mean).


I don't know how long the private pilot program takes most people; I only know
what it took me. I was at a Cessna Flight Center and followed their flight
curriculum. Heh heh... it cost me less than $1100, too. Of course at the time
you could buy a very nice car for $6000 or so.

80 hours is a hell of a long time. If I had to guess, I'd say you dragged it
out over too long a period, calendar wise. I flew every other day until I was
finished. I figure that gave me time enough to digest what I was shown but not
so long that I would forget things. If you drag things out excessively, you
waste a tremendous amount of time recovering old material.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Ray]

> 80 hours is a hell of a long time. If I had to guess, I'd say you dragged it
> out over too long a period, calendar wise.

I flew twice a week and towards the end three times a week. The average
at my club seems to be about 70 hours and I've never heard of anyone at
my home airport who's finished in under 60. I've also heard
unsubstantiated reports that the national average (in the US) is about
60 hours now. I know I took longer than a lot of people, but that's
what it took for me to feel absolutely comfortable with my abilities. I
probably could have passed the checkride earlier, but I wanted to be
over prepared.

My point is that if a student starts training with the expectation that
it will take only 40 hours, he or she is likely to get frustrated
(possibly to the point of quitting) if it ends up taking a lot longer.
Also, if the student only budgets for 40 hours of flying, money could
become a factor towards the end of the training and that's never a good
thing.

- Ray

[[email protected]]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote:
> 80 hours is a hell of a long time. If I had to guess, I'd say you dragged it
> out over too long a period, calendar wise. I flew every other day until I
> was finished.

Having worked at a flight school, 80 hours is *not* uncommon or unusual;
40 hours is possible, but is *not* the norm (at least not at our school,
and it too was a Cessna Pilot Center, using their cirriculum). I don't
know what your situation was when you did your training, but most of our
customers flew twice/week except when nearing their checkrides.

Some students would take a couple of weeks off for family vacations, or
for the holidays, or for other personal priorities, and that always
requires some extra time for review when they return, but 80 hours
wasn't unusual at all.

[BTIZ]

Local flight school does complete Students in 40-45 hours.
They have to in order to keep the Air Force FIT contract.
If they can't follow the syllabus and the student cannot complete in 45
hours, the student is not qualified for Air Force pilot training.

They do get the ham fisted, or those that fly less than once per week
average.. that take 65-80 hours.

BT
completed in 42.. I wasted a couple of solo hours..
but that was over 30yrs ago when the C-150 was $18/hr WET


"Ray" > wrote in message
...
>> 80 hours is a hell of a long time. If I had to guess, I'd say you
>> dragged it out over too long a period, calendar wise.
>
> I flew twice a week and towards the end three times a week. The average
> at my club seems to be about 70 hours and I've never heard of anyone at my
> home airport who's finished in under 60. I've also heard unsubstantiated
> reports that the national average (in the US) is about 60 hours now. I
> know I took longer than a lot of people, but that's what it took for me to
> feel absolutely comfortable with my abilities. I probably could have
> passed the checkride earlier, but I wanted to be over prepared.
>
> My point is that if a student starts training with the expectation that it
> will take only 40 hours, he or she is likely to get frustrated (possibly
> to the point of quitting) if it ends up taking a lot longer. Also, if the
> student only budgets for 40 hours of flying, money could become a factor
> towards the end of the training and that's never a good thing.
>
> - Ray

[RST Engineering]

Excuse me, but how do you get a PPC with ten hours of solo? Last I looked,
the FAA still required 20 dual, 20 solo.

Jim


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
om...
> Tolwyn wrote:
>> I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
>> But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
>> Private Pilot Course
>> 8 Weeks long
>> Ground School (60 hrs)
>> 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
>> 10 Hours Solo 172R/S
>> 1 Multimedia instruction kit
>> Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
>> 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride
>>
>> $10,600.00

[[email protected]]

"RST Engineering" > wrote:
> Excuse me, but how do you get a PPC with ten
> hours of solo? Last I looked, the FAA still required
> 20 dual, 20 solo.

How recently have you looked? The requirement (61.109) is:

"[...] a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an
airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40
hours of flight time that includes 20 hours of flight training from an
authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training [...]"

[Doug]

It will work, but if you can find a good instructor and a Cessna 152,
or even Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee, I suspect you can do it for less.
Most pilots take more than 50 hours though. For private with aircraft
renting for 90 and instructor at 30 that is 120 x 50 = 6000 plus books,
checkride fee, medical and FAA test fee figure 7000. Now figure in both
cases you need an additonal 20 hours for a total of 70. You don't need
ground school, just study on your own and take a the FAA prep test
until you get 90 or better. Your instructor can answer any questions.
One nice thing about the arrangement you quoted, they usually have
their own DE and know what to expect and the failure rate on the
checkride is lower. If you are headed for pro pilot you do not want any
checkride failures, very important and worth a lot of money. I
recommend Sheble Aviation. They do a good job and don't mess around.
They get you there. www.shebleaviaton.com says their course with 45
hours of flight time is just under $5000. I am not affiliated with
them, but have got my Seaplane rating there.

[Stefan]

wrote:

> Having worked at a flight school, 80 hours is *not* uncommon or unusual;
> 40 hours is possible, but is *not* the norm

It also depends on to what standards they teach. Are they happy to teach
you to the point to barely pass the checkride? Or do they want to make
you a safe pilot? Are they happy when you can somehow bring down the
plane on that 10'000 ft runway or do they expect a point landing where
you touch down within, say, 100 ft of the defined point each time? Do
they throw in a lesson of developed spin recovery and an introduction to
mountain flying? etc. etc.

Stefan

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Ray wrote:
> My point is that if a student starts training with the expectation that
> it will take only 40 hours, he or she is likely to get frustrated
> (possibly to the point of quitting) if it ends up taking a lot longer.
> Also, if the student only budgets for 40 hours of flying, money could
> become a factor towards the end of the training and that's never a good
> thing.


I can accept the second part of your argument: that money could be a factor if
you budget for 40 hours and have no reserve. OTOH, budgeting for 80 hours for
something that is mandated to require only 40 hours is ridiculous. Don't you
have any personal standards for success?

Maybe I'm a dinosaur. The current PC crap I read in the paper a couple of weeks
ago about "deferred success" for young failing students made me want to puke.
Yes, it's all about feeling good about yourself, but how can one feel good about
yourself when you're a failure? (I'm not talking about you personally; I refer
to the general population.) Failure is supposed to make you feel bad; avoiding
that bad feeling about yourself is what is supposed to motivate one to succeed.

Employers don't give a rat's ass about whether you have self esteem or feel good
about yourself. They are interested in results. What a lesson that must be for
the current crop of young chaps.

Getting back to the average number of hours flown by students in your area: I
have to wonder if the reason the numbers are so high is because the FBO or
flight training program is greedy. There's no excuse I can see for why it takes
people twice as long to achieve what should be done in 40 hours or thereabouts.
If you flew as frequently as you say, you should have been on top of your game.
I consider your flight frequency ideal for a student. I just don't understand
your results. People have been earning private pilot's licenses in less than 50
hours literally for generations.

If it takes a lot longer, perhaps the student lacks aptitude and should quit.
Or maybe they ought to find a program that gets the job done without screwing
people.

I congratulate you on sticking it out.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Stefan wrote:

> It also depends on to what standards they teach. Are they happy to teach
> you to the point to barely pass the checkride? Or do they want to make
> you a safe pilot? Are they happy when you can somehow bring down the
> plane on that 10'000 ft runway or do they expect a point landing where
> you touch down within, say, 100 ft of the defined point each time? Do
> they throw in a lesson of developed spin recovery and an introduction to
> mountain flying? etc. etc.


You gotta be kidding me. I jad my checkride with a guy popularly known as "Col.
Goddamnit"... a retired USAF type who didn't suffer bad flying gracefully.
Trust me, I wasn't allowed to slide by the skin of my teeth. Nor was I unusual
in my area.

I was taught to make every landing a short field landing. That way, when
presented with a genuinely short field, it was no big deal; you didn't have to
do a thing differently. I was expected to touch down on the numbers,,, every
time. There was no "chop the throttle on the threshold" crap.

Stalls were expected to be full stalls. It didn't matter whether it was a light
single or a heavy twin. You might say it was getting ready to stall, but you
held the back pressure until it broke.

There's a lot of things that aren't taught today because the instructor is
afraid you'll kill him. Spins?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

BTIZ wrote:
> Local flight school does complete Students in 40-45 hours.
> They have to in order to keep the Air Force FIT contract.
> If they can't follow the syllabus and the student cannot complete in 45
> hours, the student is not qualified for Air Force pilot training.
>
> They do get the ham fisted, or those that fly less than once per week
> average.. that take 65-80 hours.



There you go. I knew I couldn't be the only one. Thanks for speaking up.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

wrote:
> How recently have you looked? The requirement (61.109) is:
>
> "[...] a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an
> airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40
> hours of flight time that includes 20 hours of flight training from an
> authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training [...]"


No wonder folks aren't comfortable going off on their own in less than 80 hours!

I have a buddy who has over 3000 hours including a couple of thousand of turbine
time; I doubt he has 300 PIC. He has a million excuses why he doesn't bid for a
captain's slot. I'd say a lack of confidence brought on by seldom being
responsible for his own survival is a big factor. He always has someone to tell
him what to do.

I've got almost 2700 hours now and I doubt I have more than 100 that *isn't*
PIC. Lack of confidence has never been one of my problems. Taking orders from
others is.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[[email protected]]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote:
> Getting back to the average number of hours
> flown by students in your area: I have to wonder
> if the reason the numbers are so high is because
> the FBO or flight training program is greedy. There's
> no excuse I can see for why it takes people twice as
> long to achieve what should be done in 40 hours or
> thereabouts. If you flew as frequently as you say,
> you should have been on top of your game.

"should be done in 40 hours"?? The FAA requirement of 40 hours is the
MINIMUM. If they felt the only people competent enough to be licensed
pilots are those who are able to get it all done in 40 hours, they would
have made it a requirement that people pass their checkrides in the
allotted 40 hours. That's not how it reads.

Part if it may indeed being the FBO or the CFI making more money, and if
a customer feels the CFI or the school is holding them back or padding
hours when they are ready to move forward, they need to speak up or take
their biz elsewhere.

But not everyone learns at the same rate. Some people simply take longer
to become proficient. If you're taking a little longer than most at some
element, the last thing you need is someone chiding you about how long
Mortimer Schnerd took to do it. Within reason, I couldn't care less how
long it took you or the next person; my only concern is MY OWN progress.
If it takes me a few hours longer than you or than "most people" to be
proficient, why should anyone have a problem with that?

> If it takes a lot longer, perhaps the student lacks
> aptitude and should quit.

Perhaps ... or perhaps they just don't learn at the usual rate. Should
those people automatically be judged (by whom? by someone who finished
in 40 hours?) as "lacking aptitude" and be made to feel they should quit
just because they aren't finished in the MINIMUM time required for the
training?

> Or maybe they ought to find a program that gets the
> job done without screwing people.

No doubt, there are schools and CFIs out there screwing people. But many
are providing competent service and not rushing people through the
training just to get it done in the MINIMUM number of hours required.

The other thing is people doing it for the Air Force are not doing it in
their spare time, are they? A lot of people doing flight training at the
FBOs are juggling work, school, and family around the flight training --
some can do it, but it's pretty hard to juggle all that and finish in
the MINIMUM number of required hours. No reason why anyone has to feel
like they "lack aptitude" or like they "should quit" just because
they've passed the 40- or 50-hr mark and don't have their license yet.
JMO, but that "hurry up, you're behind the MINIMUM" attitude isn't a
very productive one.

[Jon Kraus]

Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking
lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of
ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had
something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings
they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for
both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the
flight for the briefings.

>Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground
school for?

> 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00
40 * 35.00 = $5,000
> 10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900
> 1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200
> Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840
> 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300
Total at my FBO $7,240

This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private.
What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me
more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too
much partying in the 70's :-)

Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona.

Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ
Tolwyn wrote:

> I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
> http://www.flywsa.com/
>
> But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
> Private Pilot Course
> 8 Weeks long
> Ground School (60 hrs)
> 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
> 10 Hours Solo 172R/S
> 1 Multimedia instruction kit
> Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
> 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride
>
> $10,600.00
>
> I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
> Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
> school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
> Oil Prices)
>
> If I go the commercial route
> Private Pilot $10,600
> Instrument Rating $14,200
> Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
> Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
> Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800
>
> 332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
> 47 Total Multi-Engine Hours
>
> $53,700 Total
>
> Just thought I'd check before making the investment.
>
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

wrote:
> But not everyone learns at the same rate. Some people simply take longer
> to become proficient. If you're taking a little longer than most at some
> element, the last thing you need is someone chiding you about how long
> Mortimer Schnerd took to do it. Within reason, I couldn't care less how
> long it took you or the next person; my only concern is MY OWN progress.
> If it takes me a few hours longer than you or than "most people" to be
> proficient, why should anyone have a problem with that?


Did it take you eight years of full time study to earn a bachelor's degree?
After all, four years is only a recommendation that some are able to acheive.

Almost twice as long isn't just "a little longer". It's a huge stack of spare
change.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[[email protected]]

Most people here would be happy with $10.600 for their license.
Last number I heard was to expect from 12K to 14K euro for your PPL.


-Kees

[Tolwyn]

Hey Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Just wasn't sure what
the averages were. I've heard the national average is like 60-65 hrs
for ppl now.

Thanks

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:22:02 GMT, Jon Kraus >
wrote:

>Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking
>lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of
>ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had
>something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings
>they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for
>both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the
>flight for the briefings.
>
> >Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground
>school for?
>
> > 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00
> 40 * 35.00 = $5,000
> > 10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900
> > 1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200
> > Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840
> > 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300
> Total at my FBO $7,240
>
>This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private.
>What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me
>more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too
>much partying in the 70's :-)
>
>Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona.
>
>Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV
>
>Jon Kraus
>'79 Mooney 201
>4443H @ TYQ
>Tolwyn wrote:
>
>> I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
>> http://www.flywsa.com/
>>
>> But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
>> Private Pilot Course
>> 8 Weeks long
>> Ground School (60 hrs)
>> 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
>> 10 Hours Solo 172R/S
>> 1 Multimedia instruction kit
>> Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
>> 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride
>>
>> $10,600.00
>>
>> I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
>> Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
>> school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
>> Oil Prices)
>>
>> If I go the commercial route
>> Private Pilot $10,600
>> Instrument Rating $14,200
>> Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
>> Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
>> Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800
>>
>> 332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
>> 47 Total Multi-Engine Hours
>>
>> $53,700 Total
>>
>> Just thought I'd check before making the investment.
>>
>> Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)

[[email protected]]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:
> Did it take you eight years of full time study to earn a bachelor's degree?
> After all, four years is only a recommendation that some are able to acheive.

Bad analogy. Unless you're doing it in the military or wealthy enough to
to devote all your waking hours at it, the biggest percentage of people
at FBOs or other schools are not doing flight training "full time". And
40 hours isn't a recommendation, it is the minimum requirement. They
regulations don't make any judgments about your aptitude if you exceed
that minimum by x-number of hours...that judgment is made during the
checkride, whether you have 40 or 140 hours.

I was addressing your comment that maybe the person "lacks aptitude" and
"should quit", not how much more it was going to cost. If the school or
the CFI are milking the customer for more $$ when they know he/she is
ready to move forward, he/she needs to speak up or go elsewhere; but if
the customer needs or wants more time, and if they're okay with spending
more of their spare change, who else's business is it to pass judgment
on how long they took or how much they spent?

[Blanche]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN > wrote:

[snip]

>Getting back to the average number of hours flown by students in your area: I
>have to wonder if the reason the numbers are so high is because the FBO or
>flight training program is greedy. There's no excuse I can see for why
>it takes
>people twice as long to achieve what should be done in 40 hours or thereabouts.
1) yes, the schools are greedy
2) the way flight training is set up (at 90% of the schools), there is NO
motivation for a CFI (or the school) to get the student finished in
the minimum period of time
3) Far too many CFIs are marginally competent at teaching, hence the
student is not on a success plan. Just using one of the well-known
syllabi does not mean a success plan. The CFIs do not understand how
to diagnose the student's learning style, to adjust to that style, how
to diagnose why a student isn't learning, etc.
4) Most private students do not know about these news groups, have little or
no knowledge of what constitutes a good CFI
5) Most private students are subject to the "authority" or "professional"
syndrome -- they understand and know they are ignorant in the topic,
know they can be injured or killed, and rely on the expertise of
the CFI to train them. And are reluctant to contradict the CFI. Hence
they don't realize (until it's really expensive) that the CFI is
a label and not a teacher.

But we've hashed, rehashed and belittled these points for years in this
news group. You finished in a minimum time - wonderful. Mazel tov.
Spectacular.

The statistics I'd really like to see concerns advanced ratings and such.
Once the PPL is finished, the pilot has a much better understanding of
the flight training process and the "economics" as well as the pitfalls
of choosing and dealing with instructors. So what's the success rate
and number of hours to complete an instrument rating, commercial, ATP?

>I consider your flight frequency ideal for a student. I just don't understand
>your results. People have been earning private pilot's licenses in less
>than 50 hours literally for generations.

Consider the incompetence of CFIs. Far too many are not instructors,
they can merely pass a test. I just finished a discussion concerning
a "certification" test program in the computer industry. The initials
of the certification merely means the person can memorize trivia (nay,
minutia!) from a book. It does not indicate any problem solving skills
or dealing with situations not covered in the book.

I don't need to memorize trivia -- that's why reference manuals are
written. What I need is problem analysis and solving skills. These
skills are NOT taught to potential CFIs!

>If it takes a lot longer, perhaps the student lacks aptitude and should quit.
>Or maybe they ought to find a program that gets the job done without screwing
>people.

Go back to my original comments. Most PPL students do not realize they
are being screwed until far past a reasonable point. And this gets back
to the elephant in the room argument. At some point the monetary and
effort exceeds the student's "level of pain" and they quit.

Personally, I blame the FAA-approved process for creating CFIs. It
stinks. It's not effective. It is easily a large part of the problem,
if not the the underlying basis of the problem.

I don't need fancy new equipment to learn the basics. When I started
music lessons, I did not rush out and buy a Buffet clarinet or a
Yamaha Super Action soprano saxaphone. It would have been a waste of
money. To learn fingering, breath support, technique, notation, etc.
the 'student model' is more cost-effective. Besides, I don't think
there's a student-model of a soprano sax. But now I have a collection
of higher-quality instruments because I have the chops to use them.

Same for an aircraft. I have a cherokee. Do I want a Lancair or Cirrus?
Sure, but it would be wasted on me right now. I don't have an instrument
rating and these aircraft are best suited to a kind of mission that
isn't in my bag of tricks. Perhaps in the future.

[[email protected]]

Blanche > wrote:
> I don't need fancy new equipment to learn the basics. When I started
> music lessons, I did not rush out and buy a Buffet clarinet or a
> Yamaha Super Action soprano saxaphone. It would have been a waste of
> money. To learn fingering, breath support, technique, notation, etc.
> the 'student model' is more cost-effective. Besides, I don't think
> there's a student-model of a soprano sax. But now I have a collection
> of higher-quality instruments because I have the chops to use them.
>
> Same for an aircraft. I have a cherokee. Do I want a Lancair or Cirrus?
> Sure, but it would be wasted on me right now. I don't have an instrument
> rating and these aircraft are best suited to a kind of mission that
> isn't in my bag of tricks. Perhaps in the future.

That's another good point. The Cessna Pilot Course uses a C172SP in
their videos. Our school had other aircraft that were far less expensive
to rent and just as capable of getting an applicant through the course,
but because the videos used C172SPs, some people chose that airplane so
they wouldn't have to interpolate the data used in the examples. And of
course, employees were encouraged to encourage use of the SPs.

The added expense for an SP over a C152 is about $40-45/hr; over an
older model C172, $15-20/hr. Multiply that by 50 or 60 hours flight
time, and that's enough, or almost enough, to buy yourself a nice Garmin
handheld! Not that all the bells and whistles in the C172SP aren't
really nice to have at your fingertips, but how many of those bells and
whistles do you *NEED* to learn how to fly? and how many hours and
dollars are you spending learning to use those bells and whistles during
the training? Sure is a nicer ride for the CFI, though! If a person
really likes the C172SP, transitioning can always be done after the
license when you are spending the money on instruction for that
airplane, not on learning how to fly.

(Not criticizing those who choose to do the training in the SP -- if
it's affordable, why not? Just saying that that's *ONE* of the reasons
why quotes from schools with these newer airplanes are so much more
than, for example, someone learning in a C152.)

[Chris G.]

I completely agree.

My FAA 8710-1a has a TT of 87.9 hours on it. That breaks down to 61.7
hours of dual and 26.2 hrs of solo. This took WAAAAYYYY longer than I
had anticipated. My mom, who was also instructed by my Dad, got her PP
in about 60 hrs and 31 days. That expectation I think hindered me, as
well as not being prepared for my flight lessons. I had really thought
in the beginning that I could knock it out in 40 and had a budget for
about 60. Note, that is REAL time, not TACH time for all but a few
flights. My budget survived on Tach time, thank god!

Chris....taking my checkride in about 48 hours (Sat 8/27)

Ray wrote:
>> Good God! That price is aimed at the most ham-fisted inept students.
>> I got my private license in 44 hours.
>
>
> I don't think it's a good idea to be giving people the impression that
> the private can be easily done in 40 hours. A lot of people do finish
> in 40 hours, but most people don't. An unrealistic expectation of
> finishing in 40 hours can lead to frustration. I took about 80 hours to
> finish and I wouldn't consider myself inept or ham-fisted (whatever
> that's supposed to mean).
>
> - Ray

[Matt Barrow]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
om...
>
>
> 80 hours is a hell of a long time. If I had to guess, I'd say you dragged
it
> out over too long a period, calendar wise. I flew every other day until I
was
> finished. I figure that gave me time enough to digest what I was shown
but not
> so long that I would forget things. If you drag things out excessively,
you
> waste a tremendous amount of time recovering old material.
>
I wonder what the average time is hours wise and calendar wise. Correlation
to shorter calendar time and hours?

Started lessons on June 16th, passed review on September 9th - 84 days, 46.5
hours. Took ground school concurrently, passed written on August 8th.
Longest gap - six days.

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Ken Hughes]

What are your training goals? I recently finished my private here in PHX
and researched all of the schools locally. If you let me know what you
want to do I'd be happy to share what I've learned.

--ken


Tolwyn wrote:
> Hey Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Just wasn't sure what
> the averages were. I've heard the national average is like 60-65 hrs
> for ppl now.
>
> Thanks
>
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:22:02 GMT, Jon Kraus >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking
>>lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of
>>ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had
>>something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings
>>they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for
>>both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the
>>flight for the briefings.
>>
>>
>>>Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground
>>
>>school for?
>>
>>
>>>40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00
>>
>> 40 * 35.00 = $5,000
>>
>>>10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900
>>>1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200
>>>Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840
>>>2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300
>>
>> Total at my FBO $7,240
>>
>>This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private.
>>What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me
>>more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too
>>much partying in the 70's :-)
>>
>>Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona.
>>
>>Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV
>>
>>Jon Kraus
>>'79 Mooney 201
>>4443H @ TYQ
>>Tolwyn wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
>>>http://www.flywsa.com/
>>>
>>>But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
>>>Private Pilot Course
>>>8 Weeks long
>>>Ground School (60 hrs)
>>>40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
>>>10 Hours Solo 172R/S
>>>1 Multimedia instruction kit
>>>Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
>>>2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride
>>>
>>>$10,600.00
>>>
>>>I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
>>>Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
>>>school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
>>>Oil Prices)
>>>
>>>If I go the commercial route
>>>Private Pilot $10,600
>>>Instrument Rating $14,200
>>>Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
>>>Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
>>>Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800
>>>
>>>332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
>>>47 Total Multi-Engine Hours
>>>
>>>$53,700 Total
>>>
>>>Just thought I'd check before making the investment.
>>>
>>>Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)
>
>

[Tolwyn]

Really just looking for my ppl right now. But the instrument rating
and so on I'd want to add on at some point. Westwind seems to be
the biggest I've found here so far. What route did you take?

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:28:52 -0700, Ken Hughes >
wrote:

>What are your training goals? I recently finished my private here in PHX
>and researched all of the schools locally. If you let me know what you
>want to do I'd be happy to share what I've learned.
>
>--ken
>
>
>Tolwyn wrote:
>> Hey Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Just wasn't sure what
>> the averages were. I've heard the national average is like 60-65 hrs
>> for ppl now.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:22:02 GMT, Jon Kraus >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking
>>>lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of
>>>ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had
>>>something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings
>>>they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for
>>>both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the
>>>flight for the briefings.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground
>>>
>>>school for?
>>>
>>>
>>>>40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00
>>>
>>> 40 * 35.00 = $5,000
>>>
>>>>10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900
>>>>1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200
>>>>Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840
>>>>2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300
>>>
>>> Total at my FBO $7,240
>>>
>>>This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private.
>>>What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me
>>>more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too
>>>much partying in the 70's :-)
>>>
>>>Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona.
>>>
>>>Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV
>>>
>>>Jon Kraus
>>>'79 Mooney 201
>>>4443H @ TYQ
>>>Tolwyn wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
>>>>http://www.flywsa.com/
>>>>
>>>>But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
>>>>Private Pilot Course
>>>>8 Weeks long
>>>>Ground School (60 hrs)
>>>>40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
>>>>10 Hours Solo 172R/S
>>>>1 Multimedia instruction kit
>>>>Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
>>>>2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride
>>>>
>>>>$10,600.00
>>>>
>>>>I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
>>>>Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
>>>>school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
>>>>Oil Prices)
>>>>
>>>>If I go the commercial route
>>>>Private Pilot $10,600
>>>>Instrument Rating $14,200
>>>>Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
>>>>Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
>>>>Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800
>>>>
>>>>332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
>>>>47 Total Multi-Engine Hours
>>>>
>>>>$53,700 Total
>>>>
>>>>Just thought I'd check before making the investment.
>>>>
>>>>Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)
>>
>>

[Seth Masia]

Here's a strategy for doing the PPL efficiently and reasonably cheaply:

Buy the books and study at home. Use Kershner or Machado, which are
reasonably entertaining and very thorough. You'll need FAR/AIM and the Gleim
book is useful for last-minute test prep. Think about getting the written
out of the way early.
Ask around and find an experienced freelance instructor with a good local
repuation -- someone who's dedicated to the trade and will stick with you
through the whole process.
Train in an older 172. Density altitude at Phoenix means that a 152 has
marginal climb peformance and it will waste a lot of your time just getting
up to pattern altitude.
Train at an uncontrolled field, so you don't waste a lot of time taxiing and
waiting, with the engine turning, on the ground. Deer Valley is not
uncontrolled.
If you have a background in sailing or flying model airplanes, things will
go faster -- you already know how a wing works.

Seth
Comanche N8100R





"Tolwyn" > wrote in message
...
> Really just looking for my ppl right now. But the instrument rating
> and so on I'd want to add on at some point. Westwind seems to be
> the biggest I've found here so far. What route did you take?
>
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:28:52 -0700, Ken Hughes >
> wrote:
>
>>What are your training goals? I recently finished my private here in PHX
>>and researched all of the schools locally. If you let me know what you
>>want to do I'd be happy to share what I've learned.
>>
>>--ken
>>
>>
>>Tolwyn wrote:
>>> Hey Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Just wasn't sure what
>>> the averages were. I've heard the national average is like 60-65 hrs
>>> for ppl now.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:22:02 GMT, Jon Kraus >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking
>>>>lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of
>>>>ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had
>>>>something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings
>>>>they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for
>>>>both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the
>>>>flight for the briefings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground
>>>>
>>>>school for?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00
>>>>
>>>> 40 * 35.00 = $5,000
>>>>
>>>>>10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900
>>>>>1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200
>>>>>Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840
>>>>>2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300
>>>>
>>>> Total at my FBO $7,240
>>>>
>>>>This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private.
>>>>What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me
>>>>more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too
>>>>much partying in the 70's :-)
>>>>
>>>>Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona.
>>>>
>>>>Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV
>>>>
>>>>Jon Kraus
>>>>'79 Mooney 201
>>>>4443H @ TYQ
>>>>Tolwyn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
>>>>>http://www.flywsa.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
>>>>>Private Pilot Course
>>>>>8 Weeks long
>>>>>Ground School (60 hrs)
>>>>>40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
>>>>>10 Hours Solo 172R/S
>>>>>1 Multimedia instruction kit
>>>>>Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
>>>>>2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride
>>>>>
>>>>>$10,600.00
>>>>>
>>>>>I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
>>>>>Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
>>>>>school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
>>>>>Oil Prices)
>>>>>
>>>>>If I go the commercial route
>>>>>Private Pilot $10,600
>>>>>Instrument Rating $14,200
>>>>>Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
>>>>>Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
>>>>>Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800
>>>>>
>>>>>332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
>>>>>47 Total Multi-Engine Hours
>>>>>
>>>>>$53,700 Total
>>>>>
>>>>>Just thought I'd check before making the investment.
>>>>>
>>>>>Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)
>>>
>>>
>

[Brian]

Look again in changed about 9 years about to 20 dual 10 solo. and 40
total.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> I wonder what the average time is hours wise and calendar wise. Correlation
> to shorter calendar time and hours?
>
> Started lessons on June 16th, passed review on September 9th - 84 days, 46.5
> hours. Took ground school concurrently, passed written on August 8th.
> Longest gap - six days.


I started in late October and finished in mid February... about three and a half
months. If anything, the winter weather slowed me down.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Seth Masia wrote:
> Here's a strategy for doing the PPL efficiently and reasonably cheaply:
>
> Buy the books and study at home. Use Kershner or Machado, which are
> reasonably entertaining and very thorough. You'll need FAR/AIM and the Gleim
> book is useful for last-minute test prep. Think about getting the written
> out of the way early.
> Ask around and find an experienced freelance instructor with a good local
> repuation -- someone who's dedicated to the trade and will stick with you
> through the whole process.
> Train in an older 172. Density altitude at Phoenix means that a 152 has
> marginal climb peformance and it will waste a lot of your time just getting
> up to pattern altitude.
> Train at an uncontrolled field, so you don't waste a lot of time taxiing and
> waiting, with the engine turning, on the ground. Deer Valley is not
> uncontrolled.


Excellent strategy. I wouldn't change a thing.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[TF]

Wow. I took 90 hours and enjoyed every min. I guess everyone is in a rush
to go someplace. When you decided to fly at 51 the journey is as sweet as
the destination. (you can teach old dogs new tricks)

I choosed to do extra training in our NY/Philly class B area and learned to
fly along the coast and over the Deleware bay etc. Didn't mind the extra
cost. I would have spent the same money on the flight time and instruction
after my PP-SEL.

But then this is a hobby for me. I have a day job. We are all very lucky to
experience this.


"Tolwyn" > wrote in message
...
> I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
> http://www.flywsa.com/
>

[[email protected]]

"Seth Masia" > wrote:
> Train in an older 172. Density altitude at Phoenix means that a 152 has
> marginal climb peformance and it will waste a lot of your time just getting
> up to pattern altitude.

I did the majority of mine in a C152 from late April through the end of
July in Phoenix with no problems, including a x-c to Prescott from
Chandler. Of course, you need to fly early in the morning, before it
reaches 110°. If you and/or your CFI weigh a lot, the 172 is a better
choice. I don't see that ANY time was ''wasted'' getting to pattern
altitude ... we were always there in plenty of time, even on the hot
days.

> Train at an uncontrolled field, so you don't waste a lot of time taxiing and
> waiting, with the engine turning, on the ground.

I flew at Falcon and Chandler, both controlled and fairly busy and
didn't spend any more time in taxi and run-up than at any uncontrolled
field. Busy as those airports both are, we rarely had to wait for
takeoff clearance at either airport. We did, however, spend 20 minutes
waiting for takeoff clearance at Deer Valley one morning and never went
back there; they're always really busy due to the schools, not unusual
for several planes to be lined up for takeoff on more than one taxiway
at the same time.

JMO, but if you're worried about the time spent taxiing at a controlled
vs. uncontrolled airport, you probably can't afford the training. You
need to know how to get in and out of uncontrolled *AND* controlled
airports ... don't limit your training to just one or the other. The
regs state that part of your solo requirement is "three takeoffs and
three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in
the traffic pattern) **at an airport with an operating control tower**."

As you can see by all these responses, everyone has their own ideas
about the best way to train. Do your own research, talk to people whose
opinions you respect, and then make up your own mind about how, where
and with whom you want to train. Good luck and enjoy!

[Seth Masia]

Good on you. Flying early mornings is always a good idea, because that's
when the air is smooth.

No matter where you train, you'll do practice into controlled fields.
There's less pressure at uncontrolled fields, and you'll spend more time
with your head out of the cockpit watching for traffic and being more
flexible with radio work.

What's not fun is sitting in a hot cockpit on a 110 degree day waiting 20
minutes for a takeoff clearance, and then being told to rush the landing
because there's jet traffic behind you -- on your early solos. Which is not
out of the question at a busy controlled field.

Seth

> wrote in message
...
> "Seth Masia" > wrote:
>> Train in an older 172. Density altitude at Phoenix means that a 152 has
>> marginal climb peformance and it will waste a lot of your time just
>> getting
>> up to pattern altitude.
>
> I did the majority of mine in a C152 from late April through the end of
> July in Phoenix with no problems, including a x-c to Prescott from
> Chandler. Of course, you need to fly early in the morning, before it
> reaches 110°. If you and/or your CFI weigh a lot, the 172 is a better
> choice. I don't see that ANY time was ''wasted'' getting to pattern
> altitude ... we were always there in plenty of time, even on the hot
> days.
>
>> Train at an uncontrolled field, so you don't waste a lot of time taxiing
>> and
>> waiting, with the engine turning, on the ground.
>
> I flew at Falcon and Chandler, both controlled and fairly busy and
> didn't spend any more time in taxi and run-up than at any uncontrolled
> field. Busy as those airports both are, we rarely had to wait for
> takeoff clearance at either airport. We did, however, spend 20 minutes
> waiting for takeoff clearance at Deer Valley one morning and never went
> back there; they're always really busy due to the schools, not unusual
> for several planes to be lined up for takeoff on more than one taxiway
> at the same time.
>
> JMO, but if you're worried about the time spent taxiing at a controlled
> vs. uncontrolled airport, you probably can't afford the training. You
> need to know how to get in and out of uncontrolled *AND* controlled
> airports ... don't limit your training to just one or the other. The
> regs state that part of your solo requirement is "three takeoffs and
> three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in
> the traffic pattern) **at an airport with an operating control tower**."
>
> As you can see by all these responses, everyone has their own ideas
> about the best way to train. Do your own research, talk to people whose
> opinions you respect, and then make up your own mind about how, where
> and with whom you want to train. Good luck and enjoy!

[George Patterson]

Seth Masia wrote:
>
> Buy the books and study at home. Use Kershner or Machado, which are
> reasonably entertaining and very thorough. You'll need FAR/AIM and the Gleim
> book is useful for last-minute test prep. Think about getting the written
> out of the way early.

Some people can visualize things from reading and study well enough to do this;
others can't. If you find that you're having trouble understanding the material,
it may be best to wait to take the written exam. When you actually do something
in the plane that you've read about, it makes it clearer. This was particularly
true for me with instruments.

Back when I took the test, the FAA asked that you review the questions that you
missed. This was only possible if you had the Gleim book for the version of the
exam you took. Dunno if that's still true.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

TF wrote:
> Wow. I took 90 hours and enjoyed every min.

In my case, it was 72 hours, and I enjoyed most of it. Having a lovely blond
instructor of the opposite sex played a part. :-) I had some trouble getting my
medical certificate, though, and about 15 hours of that was marking time waiting
on that.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[[email protected]]

"Seth Masia" > wrote:
> What's not fun is sitting in a hot cockpit on a 110 degree day waiting 20
> minutes for a takeoff clearance, and then being told to rush the landing
> because there's jet traffic behind you -- on your early solos. Which is not
> out of the question at a busy controlled field.

Point I was making was that not *all* controlled fields around Phoenix
are as busy as Deer Valley. A friend that attended one of the schools
there said waiting 20 minutes for takeoff clearance at Deer Valley is
not at all uncommon. Waiting even 5 minutes for takeoff clearance at
Chandler or Falcon IS uncommon -- a minute or two is the norm if you
aren't cleared on the first request. But it's not unusual to have to
wait a minute or two for landing traffic at uncontrolled fields in the
Phoenix area either. Just because it's an uncontrolled field doesn't
mean there won't/can't be faster aircraft behind you ... a King Air in
the pattern at Casa Grande behind a 172, for example.