Electronic horizon?

[Martin Gregorie]

I recently saw the write-up on the Stratomaster AHRS-2 system. Its
American uncertified kit that shows a ribbon compass, T&S and artificial
horizon on a single LCD display that fits a standard 80mm panel hole.

It only uses 200 mA at 12v, is light and costs about GP 100 ($US 180) more
than an ex-military horizon, T&S and compass. I like that and the ability
to put the lot in just one dial on the panel.

Is there any experience out there with this gadget?

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[John Scott]

I just checked their web site. $180 sounded too good to be true. It was.
The AHRS-2 lists for $1200.

John

[[email protected]]

Martin,

I have flown with this instrument, it works well. It will tumble after
several minutes of extreme bank angles. Even higher priced instrument
in the $3000 to $5000 range have a cage function for acrobatic
maneuvers or extreme bank angles.

Please see my web site for more info and pricing
http://www.craggyaero.com/solidstate.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Martin Gregorie]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:17:57 -0600, John Scott wrote:

> I just checked their web site. $180 sounded too good to be true. It
> was.
> The AHRS-2 lists for $1200.
>
Yeah, that sounds about right: I actually said it was about $200 LESS THAN
a standard compass + mechanical T&S + artifical horizon. The price I saw
was GBP 695.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Martin Gregorie]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:53:43 -0700, rhpf wrote:

> Martin,
>
> I have flown with this instrument, it works well. It will tumble after
> several minutes of extreme bank angles. Even higher priced instrument in
> the $3000 to $5000 range have a cage function for acrobatic maneuvers or
> extreme bank angles.
>
This instrument group is one that I'd almost never use during normal XC:
the reason I'm looking is that when/if I do some wave flying I'd like to
have these displays onboard in case of canopy icing and/or finding
the slot slammed shut below me. Would you trust it for that? I'm asking
because I've heard stories that continuous circling would tumble it.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[bumper]

Even though it doesn't have pitch info, I've been really happy with the
Trutrak

http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html

Powers up in 3 seconds, even in a crank and bank turn, so can be left off
until needed. The "sky and ground" display is more intuitive than a turn
coordinator or needle and ball. In use, the horizon display closely tracks
the real horizon. For $445, cheap insurance.

bumper
(no affiliation to Trutrak)

"Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
dress...
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:17:57 -0600, John Scott wrote:
>
>> I just checked their web site. $180 sounded too good to be true. It
>> was.
>> The AHRS-2 lists for $1200.
>>
> Yeah, that sounds about right: I actually said it was about $200 LESS THAN
> a standard compass + mechanical T&S + artifical horizon. The price I saw
> was GBP 695.
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |
>

[Stefan]

Martin Gregorie wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:53:43 -0700, rhpf wrote:

>> I have flown with this instrument, it works well. It will tumble after
>> several minutes of extreme bank angles.

> Would you trust it for that? I'm asking
> because I've heard stories that continuous circling would tumble it.

The post you're answering to tells it clearly enough, I think. Extreme
bank angle is a pretty normal attitude in a glider.

The only instrument that will never tumble, by construction principle,
is the needle. So if you're looking for an emergency instrument, install
a classic, gyro driven needle. I wouldn't want to do serious cloud
flying with only a needle in a glass ship, but for an emergency descent
with open spoilers it's good enough.

Stefan

[Stefan]

bumper wrote:

> Even though it doesn't have pitch info, I've been really happy with the
> Trutrak
>
> http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html

I consider this instrument dangeruous because a trained pilot *will*
confuse it with a horizon. And an untrained pilot shouldn't fly in IMC
in the first place.

Stefan

[bumper]

Well, let's see, last I checked, I'm a "trained pilot" (SEL, instrument,
glider), and *I* haven't confused it yet. While I respect your opinion, I'd
like to know what data you're basing it on.

Agreed, the Trutrak does sort of "resemble" a full fledged horizon or AI,
but even at first glance it's pretty obvious that it's not the same.

I'm not suggesting that people go out and fly IMC with the Trutrak. Like the
Garmin 196 panel page, the Trutrak, an old mechanical gyro, or damn near
anything is better than nothing for inadvertent or emergency IMC. Many of us
know dead folks who would still be alive if they had one of these devices.

BTW, the Trutrak doesn't tumble. Like a needle and ball, it simple stops
increasing the displayed bank angle once you get steeper than say 60
degrees. It is available set up for both 1 and 2 minute turns (1 minute
recommended for glider).

I've also flown with a mechanical gyro 1 minute needle and ball installed in
a Stemme I recently sold, so I have experience with several instruments. In
order of preference, and assuming one doesn't have a full AI, I'd rate the
Trutrak first, then the Garmin 196 (that is amazingly good), and the
mechanical gyro needle and ball last - - though they will all do the job
given adequate pilot training flying partial panel IMC.

bumper


"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> bumper wrote:
>
>> Even though it doesn't have pitch info, I've been really happy with the
>> Trutrak
>>
>> http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html
>
> I consider this instrument dangeruous because a trained pilot *will*
> confuse it with a horizon. And an untrained pilot shouldn't fly in IMC in
> the first place.
>
> Stefan

[Bill Daniels]

There are several PDA based 'glass cockpit' software packages that appear to
work well. They derive bank attitude from TAS (or GS if TAS is not
available) and the rate of change of ground track. Pitch data is derived
from the rate of change of airspeed. 'Heading' is actually ground track but
that is good enough.

Since many glider pilots already have a PDA in the cockpit, these might be
good enough for an emergency. Simply have the 'glass cockpit' running in
the background and switch to it if the need arises. The beauty is that no
additional hardware is needed beyond what is already in the glider.

FWIW, I tried a simulated 'blind let down' using only the wet compass in the
back seat of a G103. With the glider on a southerly heading, I used the
southerly leading error to keep the wings level and hold the heading. I was
able to do this for about 10 minutes under the 'hood' without outside
reference.

For those readers not aware of this trick, a magnetic compass senses not
only the N-S magnet field but also the 'dip' angle. While on a southerly
heading in mid northern latitudes, the magnetic compass will indicate a turn
as soon as a wing is down and before a turn actually starts. Banking the
glider left and right as needed to keep the compass on S will keep the wings
level. This is very tricky in a fast airplane but surprisingly easy in a
slow glider as long as the air isn't very turbulent. (For out friends in
the Southern Hemisphere this trick requires a north heading.)

Bill Daniels


"Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
dress...
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:53:43 -0700, rhpf wrote:
>
> > Martin,
> >
> > I have flown with this instrument, it works well. It will tumble after
> > several minutes of extreme bank angles. Even higher priced instrument
in
> > the $3000 to $5000 range have a cage function for acrobatic maneuvers or
> > extreme bank angles.
> >
> This instrument group is one that I'd almost never use during normal XC:
> the reason I'm looking is that when/if I do some wave flying I'd like to
> have these displays onboard in case of canopy icing and/or finding
> the slot slammed shut below me. Would you trust it for that? I'm asking
> because I've heard stories that continuous circling would tumble it.
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |
>

[Stefan]

bumper wrote:

> While I respect your opinion, I'd
> like to know what data you're basing it on.

It is generally considered a bad idea to have two instruments which look
the same but have a different meaning. It will work fine as long as
there is no stress present, but the moment there is additional stress,
chances are that the human system breaks down. For illustration, read
the accident report at http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/1781_e,
especially paragraph 1.18.2. (Agreed, things were much more complex and
there were many more factors involved, but I think the report is very
enlightning anyway.)

> damn near
> anything is better than nothing for inadvertent or emergency IMC.

I think nobody will disagree on this.

Stefan

[bumper]

Stefan,

Again, no argument with regard to the conclusions drawn in the accident
report you cite. BTW, that is one incredibly long and detailed accident
report! I think in the US, only a Kennedy could garner that much attention.

Anyway, with regard to the Trutrak versus western style horizons, the
depiction is the same, i.e. the aircraft silhouette remains stationary with
the host aircraft while the "outside" sky/earth turns within the instrument
to depict bank angle. Thus, someone who has trained on western instruments
should have no problem adapting to the Trutrak. Much easier and more
intuitive than a needle and ball - - at least for me as I trained w/ a turn
coordinator. All you gotta remember is there's no pitch info. In a glider,
that isn't too tough as if you go too fast, the wings get swept back.

bumper

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> bumper wrote:
>
>> While I respect your opinion, I'd like to know what data you're basing it
>> on.
>
> It is generally considered a bad idea to have two instruments which look
> the same but have a different meaning. It will work fine as long as there
> is no stress present, but the moment there is additional stress, chances
> are that the human system breaks down. For illustration, read the accident
> report at http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/1781_e, especially paragraph
> 1.18.2.

[Ramy Yanetz]

In absence of more suitable instrument and/or rating, couldn't a GPS or PDA
with moving map be used to descend through clouds in emergency by zooming in
and noting if and what direction the glider is turning?

Ramy

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
...
> There are several PDA based 'glass cockpit' software packages that appear
> to
> work well. They derive bank attitude from TAS (or GS if TAS is not
> available) and the rate of change of ground track. Pitch data is derived
> from the rate of change of airspeed. 'Heading' is actually ground track
> but
> that is good enough.
>
> Since many glider pilots already have a PDA in the cockpit, these might be
> good enough for an emergency. Simply have the 'glass cockpit' running in
> the background and switch to it if the need arises. The beauty is that no
> additional hardware is needed beyond what is already in the glider.
>
> FWIW, I tried a simulated 'blind let down' using only the wet compass in
> the
> back seat of a G103. With the glider on a southerly heading, I used the
> southerly leading error to keep the wings level and hold the heading. I
> was
> able to do this for about 10 minutes under the 'hood' without outside
> reference.
>
> For those readers not aware of this trick, a magnetic compass senses not
> only the N-S magnet field but also the 'dip' angle. While on a southerly
> heading in mid northern latitudes, the magnetic compass will indicate a
> turn
> as soon as a wing is down and before a turn actually starts. Banking the
> glider left and right as needed to keep the compass on S will keep the
> wings
> level. This is very tricky in a fast airplane but surprisingly easy in a
> slow glider as long as the air isn't very turbulent. (For out friends in
> the Southern Hemisphere this trick requires a north heading.)
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
> "Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
> dress...
>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:53:43 -0700, rhpf wrote:
>>
>> > Martin,
>> >
>> > I have flown with this instrument, it works well. It will tumble after
>> > several minutes of extreme bank angles. Even higher priced instrument
> in
>> > the $3000 to $5000 range have a cage function for acrobatic maneuvers
>> > or
>> > extreme bank angles.
>> >
>> This instrument group is one that I'd almost never use during normal XC:
>> the reason I'm looking is that when/if I do some wave flying I'd like to
>> have these displays onboard in case of canopy icing and/or finding
>> the slot slammed shut below me. Would you trust it for that? I'm asking
>> because I've heard stories that continuous circling would tumble it.
>>
>> --
>> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>> org |
>>
>

[bumper]

"Ramy Yanetz" > wrote in message
m...
> In absence of more suitable instrument and/or rating, couldn't a GPS or
> PDA with moving map be used to descend through clouds in emergency by
> zooming in and noting if and what direction the glider is turning?
>
> Ramy


Ramy,

Many GPS have a "HSI" page or at least a track derived "compass". These
would probably be easier use that watching the bread-crumb track on a
zoomed-in map. Besides, the track update rate may be much lower than the GPS
update rate in order to conserve internal track memory, though this is
usually user selectable.

Best of all, IMO, is the "panel page" on the Garmin 196 / 296 / 396.

bumper

[Tom]

I, once, had to do a real descent thru the clouds after being trapped
on top while wave flying. At the time I had no instrument training and
had to come up with a plan of action on very short notice. I selected a
westerly heading since there would be no turning error on the compass.
I lowered the gear and pulled the dive brakes and flew at a high speed
to maximize descent rate. I reasoned that if the compass isn't changing
you aren't turning. I ended up descending 7000 ft thru the clouds with
the wings perfectly level on exit.

The only thing I would do differently would be to fly at a slower
speed.

I have tried the benign spiral trick with no luck (for those unfamiliar
with this you lower the landing gear, set landing flap position if you
are flapped, and take your hands off the controls).

Also, I read the accident report sited by Stephan and found no possible
connection to the T&B mentioned earlier. The report mentions the
differences between Russian and Western AI, not the pilot confusing a
T&B for an AI. I see no possibility for confusion for a glider pilot
who has this as his only inertial instrument.

Tom

[Martin Gregorie]

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 22:55:29 -0700, Tom wrote:

> I have tried the benign spiral trick with no luck (for those unfamiliar
> with this you lower the landing gear, set landing flap position if you are
> flapped, and take your hands off the controls).
>
Don't try it with an ASW-20. It has no benign spiral with the flaps in
neutral: I checked with gear down, brakes and no brakes.

However, its probably OK on a fixed heading: clean, with zero flap, hands
off but feet used to keep straight, its stable with a 25 second +/- 5 kt
phugoid.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Stefan]

Tom wrote:

> I selected a
> westerly heading since there would be no turning error on the compass.

The idea of setting the course 180 *is* exactly the turning error! Every
tendency to bank will immediately be displayed by the compass, even
before the plane begins to actually turn. It actually works very much
like the "turn coordinator". (BTW, this works as well on course 0, of
course. But because the compass will react in the wrong direction, a
correct reaction would require a very high level of abstraction.)

> Also, I read the accident report sited by Stephan and found no possible
> connection to the T&B mentioned earlier.

The conection is that you have an instrument in front of you which
reacts differently than you expect. When you're trained with and used to
an artificial horizon, then that trutrak thing looks ecactly like one.
So I expect it to display pitch information which it doesn't. And when
you've learnt to rely on a horizon as your primary reference for
attitude, then the issue is no more minor, but may become that last
straw which breaks the camel's back.

I stay with my statement: Something which looks exactly like a well
known and widespread instrument but works differently is a possible
source of confusion and a very bad idea, especially when it comes to
such an unforgiving thing as flying in clouds.

Stefan

[Tom]

Stefan wrote:
> Tom wrote:
>
> > I selected a
> > westerly heading since there would be no turning error on the compass.
>
> The idea of setting the course 180 *is* exactly the turning error! Every
> tendency to bank will immediately be displayed by the compass, even
> before the plane begins to actually turn. It actually works very much
> like the "turn coordinator". (BTW, this works as well on course 0, of
> course. But because the compass will react in the wrong direction, a
> correct reaction would require a very high level of abstraction.)

OK, have you actually done this in a REAL emergency? I have, and it
worked. And that was without ANY prior training. Having - guaranteed -
no turning error was critical. I wasn't about to guess at which
direction gave the turning error in the same direction.

My rational is real simple: if the compass isn't moving you aren't
turning; if it is moving you turn - gradually - in the opposite
direction. The goal isn't to follow a particular heading, it is to stay
level and in control.

>
> > Also, I read the accident report sited by Stephan and found no possible
> > connection to the T&B mentioned earlier.
>
> The conection is that you have an instrument in front of you which
> reacts differently than you expect. When you're trained with and used to
> an artificial horizon, then that trutrak thing looks ecactly like one.
> So I expect it to display pitch information which it doesn't. And when
> you've learnt to rely on a horizon as your primary reference for
> attitude, then the issue is no more minor, but may become that last
> straw which breaks the camel's back.
>
> I stay with my statement: Something which looks exactly like a well
> known and widespread instrument but works differently is a possible
> source of confusion and a very bad idea, especially when it comes to
> such an unforgiving thing as flying in clouds.

Again, I think you are overlly concerned about a non-issue. I believe
that any pilot who has had instrument training will have no problem
with the Truetrak, and those that have not can't possibly be confused
about something about which they know nothing. Actually, I think the
later will be able to use the Truetrak more effectively because it IS
more intuitive.

Tom

BTW: Your accident pilot was on unauthorized drugs (Russian
tranquillizer), which was the most likely cause of the accident.

[Stefan]

Tom wrote:

> OK, have you actually done this in a REAL emergency?

No, and I'm not planning to do so. Our club gliders are all equipped
with needle/ball, and I would be very reluctant to fly over a föhn gap
without.

> I have, and it worked.

I've understood this and am glad you succeeded. Just gave you the reason
why course 180 is "recommended". BTW: I don't believe that such a decent
would be successfull in gusty air, at least not reliably so.

> Again, I think you are overlly concerned about a non-issue.

I really hope you are correct and I am wrong. I'm not convinced, though.

> BTW: Your accident pilot was on unauthorized drugs (Russian
> tranquillizer), which was the most likely cause of the accident.

Knowing the involved company first hand, I'm pretty sure it was a lack
of conversion training.

Stefan

[bumper]

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
>
> I stay with my statement: Something which looks exactly like a well known
> and widespread instrument but works differently is a possible source of
> confusion and a very bad idea, especially when it comes to such an
> unforgiving thing as flying in clouds.
>
> Stefan


Well let's see, yup my Trutrack in my glider does sort of look a bit like
the horizon in my Mooney, it has the blue sky over brown earth anyway. Then
there's that little airplane thingy - - that's similar. Ah, but there's no
vertical scale to show pitch. Hmmm, what's that little sign above the
airplane right on the face of the instrument? "N-O P-I-T-C-H" is what it
says. Damn, that's confusing!

face of the instrument here:
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html

I'm not connected with Trutrack in any way.

bumper
(who's very happy with the Trutrack and not likely to get confused enough to
remove it and throw it away :c)

[Stefan]

> bumper
> (who's very happy with the Trutrack and not likely to get confused enough to
> remove it and throw it away :c)

Glad you like it. But I don't and my club isn't going to install it in
any club glider unless they change the display to a needle.

Stefan

[Tom]

Just be sure to have your T&B on ALL of the time; you will not have
time to turn it on when you need it.

I prefer an aviation GPS with an HSI display.

Tom

[bumper]

Tom,

The Trutrac needs only 3 seconds from switch-on to providing good info. It
doesn't matter if it's level or cranked over in a steep turn. Really pretty
amazing and nothing at all like turning on a mechanical needle and ball or
turn coordinator and then waiting for it to erect properly if already in a
turn.

Since I have both a Garmin 196 and Trutrack in the ASH26E, I've compared
them to each other. Either will keep an experienced pilot right side up in
IMC, or allow one to do a 180 etc, I prefer the display on Trutrack by a
slight margin as the response is a bit faster than Garmin's panel page.

Both are good to have, as there's nothing wrong with redundancy. If I had to
pick one, it would be the Garmin, even though the display is slower. The
Garmin gives more data, including ground speed. Good to have if the pitot
ices up. 'Course if that happened, one would probably have other concerns
too.

bumper


"Tom" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Just be sure to have your T&B on ALL of the time; you will not have
> time to turn it on when you need it.
>
> I prefer an aviation GPS with an HSI display.
>
> Tom
>

[Stefan]

Tom wrote:

> Just be sure to have your T&B on ALL of the time; you will not have
> time to turn it on when you need it.

I have a hard time to imagine a situation where I would be suddenly in a
cloud without any forewarning.

> I prefer an aviation GPS with an HSI display.

This depends what on you want you want it for. While I believe that it
would allow a safe descent through a thin cloud deck, I don't believe it
would be fast enough for that bumpy climb inside a cumulus congestus.

Stefan

[M B]

A big thank you to all of those who over the past
three years have contributed money or attention
or other effort to nurture the Dr. Jack BLIPMAPs
into a stable resource.

Several years ago I and others called upon
(mostly USA) pilots to give donations to
the worthy BLIPMAPs and other Dr. Jack products.
I truly believe the very positive response was
the difference between losing these products or developing

them into a stable state.

The site at this point, several years later, seems
stable,
and has had the 'glitches' worked out. I am very,
very
happy that so many people responded so generously to

support this.

Of course, none deserve gratitude more than
Dr. Jack himself...but without the funds and recognition

he so completely deserved (but was much to modest to
ask for himself) this resource might have disappeared.

Long live BLIPMAPs and BLIPSPOTs and
all these other wonderful products!

www.drjack.net

If you care to contribute more, look at

www.drjack.info/BLIPMAP/contributors.html

Thank you again for being such a supportive community
towards this.
Mark J. Boyd

[jonnyboy]

> Stefan shrieked:
> I have a hard time to imagine a situation where I would be suddenly
in a
> cloud without any forewarning.
>
Steffi;
You wanna get out more. You don't *intend* to go in - it just sort of
happens (p.s. look up 'thermal').
Jonny (no offence ;-)

[Bert Willing]

Being inside a cloud does not "just happen". You have to go there, and you
can decide not to go.

Being trapped above a cloud layer under wave conditions is another subject,
though.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"jonnyboy" > a écrit dans le message de news:
. com...
>> Stefan shrieked:
> > I have a hard time to imagine a situation where I would be suddenly
> in a
> > cloud without any forewarning.
>>
> Steffi;
> You wanna get out more. You don't *intend* to go in - it just sort of
> happens (p.s. look up 'thermal').
> Jonny (no offence ;-)
>

[Stefan]

jonnyboy wrote:

> You wanna get out more. You don't *intend* to go in - it just sort of
> happens (p.s. look up 'thermal').

Definitely not. If it "just happens" to you, then something is *very*
wrong with your flying tactics and possibly even with your attitude. (It
may "just happen" at night, but I rarely find thermals at night.) In all
real world situations where you might get trapped, there is always
plenty of time to spin up that gyro.

Stefan

[Marc Ramsey]

Stefan wrote:
> Definitely not. If it "just happens" to you, then something is *very*
> wrong with your flying tactics and possibly even with your attitude. (It
> may "just happen" at night, but I rarely find thermals at night.) In all
> real world situations where you might get trapped, there is always
> plenty of time to spin up that gyro.

I recently reviewed an article from a pilot flew into what became a
measured 30 knot climb (~15 m/s) below one decent looking cumulus in the
midst of an area of 70+% cloud cover. It took about 30 seconds to go
from a normal (for this area) 10+ knot climb well below cloud base to
being inside the cloud. Nothing much wrong with his tactics or
attitude, he just didn't realize that he had hooked the "big one" until
it was too late to escape the lift.

How long does it take to spin up a gyro?

[[email protected]]

MG wrote: "A big thank you to all of those who over the past
three years have contributed money or attention
or other effort to nurture the Dr. Jack BLIPMAPs
into a stable resource."

You're welcome. And probably thank you -- I imagine you were also
supportivem, probably more than I. And, Amen! Thank God BLIPMAP
survived. May it have a long and healthy life.

Martin

PS Not sure how this got onto the Electronic Horizon thread though.

[Eric Greenwell]

Marc Ramsey wrote:

> Stefan wrote:
>
>> Definitely not. If it "just happens" to you, then something is *very*
>> wrong with your flying tactics and possibly even with your attitude.
>> (It may "just happen" at night, but I rarely find thermals at night.)
>> In all real world situations where you might get trapped, there is
>> always plenty of time to spin up that gyro.
>
>
> I recently reviewed an article from a pilot flew into what became a
> measured 30 knot climb (~15 m/s) below one decent looking cumulus in the
> midst of an area of 70+% cloud cover. It took about 30 seconds to go
> from a normal (for this area) 10+ knot climb well below cloud base to
> being inside the cloud. Nothing much wrong with his tactics or
> attitude, he just didn't realize that he had hooked the "big one" until
> it was too late to escape the lift.
>
> How long does it take to spin up a gyro?

My 1 minute turn rate T&B will provide useful guidance after about 3 or
4 seconds from power on, and the red flag disappears after about 6
seconds. I suspect that would be fast enough in the incident you
mention, but I can't be sure.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Stefan]

Marc Ramsey wrote:

> Nothing much wrong with his tactics or
> attitude, he just didn't realize that he had hooked the "big one" until
> it was too late to escape the lift.

Obviously yes. (Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that I'm perfect.
Actually, I've made very dumb mistakes.)

> How long does it take to spin up a gyro?

30 Seconds is plenty enough for the needle.

Stefan

[David Smith]

If Bumper is correct and the Garmin 196 GPS driven
attitude display can be used for a emergency cloud
descent then presumably the turning glider on a Winpilot
screen will give the same information, or will it ????

David Smith

At 06:06 05 September 2005, Bumper wrote:
>Tom,
>
>The Trutrac needs only 3 seconds from switch-on to
>providing good info. It
>doesn't matter if it's level or cranked over in a steep
>turn. Really pretty
>amazing and nothing at all like turning on a mechanical
>needle and ball or
>turn coordinator and then waiting for it to erect properly
>if already in a
>turn.
>
>Since I have both a Garmin 196 and Trutrack in the
>ASH26E, I've compared
>them to each other. Either will keep an experienced
>pilot right side up in
>IMC, or allow one to do a 180 etc, I prefer the display
>on Trutrack by a
>slight margin as the response is a bit faster than
>Garmin's panel page.
>
>Both are good to have, as there's nothing wrong with
>redundancy. If I had to
>pick one, it would be the Garmin, even though the display
>is slower. The
>Garmin gives more data, including ground speed. Good
>to have if the pitot
>ices up. 'Course if that happened, one would probably
>have other concerns
>too.
>
>bumper
>
>
>'Tom' wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Just be sure to have your T&B on ALL of the time;
>>you will not have
>> time to turn it on when you need it.
>>
>> I prefer an aviation GPS with an HSI display.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>
>
>

[Eric Greenwell]

David Smith wrote:

> If Bumper is correct and the Garmin 196 GPS driven
> attitude display can be used for a emergency cloud
> descent then presumably the turning glider on a Winpilot
> screen will give the same information, or will it ????

My experiments with GPS for turn indication showed success depends very
much on the wind strength: below 20 knots, it's probably OK; above 30
knots, it's definitely not.

In strong winds, the heading changes displayed become very sensitive to
turns when flying upwind, and very insensitive when flying downwind. The
more wind, the worse it gets. This quite different from a gyro
instrument, which has the same sensitivity regardless of the wind.
Perhaps a pilot could practice and become adept at it, and maybe, maybe,
in smooth air it's not a problem, even in strong winds.

Since wind is a always feature of wave flying, I do not want to rely a
GPS to save my butt during an encounter with clouds. I have a T&B that I
practice with periodically, though I've never come close to entering a
cloud. Other club members have, however.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Gary Evans]

I've tried my Compaq Aero with GNII to see how well
I could stay straight and while it may be better than
nothing it sure isn't great. When set to the minimum
scale, between the short trailing track length and
the frequency, it is relatively slow to show banking
change.


At 16:48 09 September 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>David Smith wrote:
>
>> If Bumper is correct and the Garmin 196 GPS driven
>> attitude display can be used for a emergency cloud
>> descent then presumably the turning glider on a Winpilot
>> screen will give the same information, or will it
>>????
>
>My experiments with GPS for turn indication showed
>success depends very
>much on the wind strength: below 20 knots, it's probably
>OK; above 30
>knots, it's definitely not.
>
>In strong winds, the heading changes displayed become
>very sensitive to
>turns when flying upwind, and very insensitive when
>flying downwind. The
>more wind, the worse it gets. This quite different
>from a gyro
>instrument, which has the same sensitivity regardless
>of the wind.
>Perhaps a pilot could practice and become adept at
>it, and maybe, maybe,
>in smooth air it's not a problem, even in strong winds.
>
>Since wind is a always feature of wave flying, I do
>not want to rely a
>GPS to save my butt during an encounter with clouds.
>I have a T&B that I
>practice with periodically, though I've never come
>close to entering a
>cloud. Other club members have, however.
>
>--
>Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell
>Washington State
>USA
>

[Stefan]

David Smith wrote:

> If Bumper is correct and the Garmin 196 GPS driven
> attitude display can be used for a emergency cloud
> descent then presumably the turning glider on a Winpilot
> screen will give the same information, or will it ????

Why don't you (and everybody else who is wondering) just go and try it?
You'll be surprized how fast things develop in a modern slippery glider!

Here is how we teach and train cloud flying: The student sits in the
back seat of a (properly equipped) two seater, the instructor in the
front. Then the outside view from the back seat is completely obscured
by a kind of "curtain". Very easy to build and install such a courtain
yourself. Turn on the gyros, close that curtain and there you go!
There's no reason why you couldn't try this with any instructor you
know, and certainly an interesting experience.

BTW, our cloud flying syllabus is the following:
- Fly straight and level on a defined course for at least one minute.
- Fly a 180 and hit the reverse course in "reasonable" time. Done on
several different courses. (Needs some calculation and an understanding
on compass error while flying.)
- Climb in a thermal and exit on a predefined course.
- Recover from unusual attitudes the instructor has brought you in.

If it's only for that emergency descent, then lesson 1 would suffice.

Stefan

[bumper]

"David Smith" > wrote in message
...
> If Bumper is correct and the Garmin 196 GPS driven
> attitude display can be used for a emergency cloud
> descent then presumably the turning glider on a Winpilot
> screen will give the same information, or will it ????
>
> David Smith


I agree with the others, I wouldn't want to rely on my trusty Garmin 196 in
some of the typically strong Minden wave conditions I've seen. With the
glider doing zero ground speed, moving sideways or even backwards over the
ground, the GPS map gets all confused, bearing little resemblance to the
real world while trying to show track-up. I can imagine the GPS panel page
would give up and let the "simulated gyro" tumble!

I knew there was a good reason to have that TruTrack too . . . even though,
like the GPS map, I get all confused when I see that little "no pitch" sign!

bumper

[Tom]

Well, it happened to a friend of mine. Lenticular wave clouds can form
with little, or no, warning. I've seen it happen. Of course, you can
believe otherwise and leave your T&B off. And maybe, just maybe, you
will be right.

Tom