Rocks Thrown at Border Patrol Chopper

[[email protected]]

Rocks Thrown at Border Patrol Chopper
Aug 25 3:31 PM US/Eastern

YUMA, Ariz.

Illegal immigrants threw rocks at a Border Patrol helicopter,
forcing the pilot to make an emergency landing when one of the rocks
damaged the rotor, the agency said.

Neither the pilot nor the Border Patrol observer was injured.

The A-Star helicopter was two miles west of the U.S. Port of
Entry in Andrade, Calif., on Tuesday when a group of immigrants
began throwing rocks at the aircraft.

One baseball-sized rock gashed the rotor, forcing the pilot to
land nearby, said Michael Gramley, spokesman for the Border
Patrol sector based in Yuma, Ariz.

Gramley said he did not know how high the helicopter was
hovering when it was struck, but he said it was being repaired
and is expected back in service soon.

After the incident, 17 people were apprehended for illegally
crossing the border, and two of them were being investigated for
smuggling. Ten immigrants evaded capture.

The investigation into the rock-throwing was continuing.
================================================== =======

Perhaps we should arm the copter with machine guns and fire back?


KM

[Jay Honeck]

> Perhaps we should arm the copter with machine guns and fire back?

No, that would be barbaric.

However, I am continually amazed at the vociferous opposition to actually
controlling our borders. For some reason the ACLU and a host of other
do-gooder organizations find it anathema for America to actually restrict
immigration to legal immigrants only -- a fact that baffles me.

We are friends with a family from Columbia. They came to America the hard
way -- legally -- and have struggled over the last decade with obtaining
green cards for their family members, and with becoming American citizens.
It has been a tough row to hoe, and they are rightfully proud of their
efforts and status.

They are also the most vocally anti-Mexican group of people I have EVER
known. Their attitude toward illegal immigrants borders on Fascist -- they
simply despise them for cheating and taking the easy way -- at what they see
as their expense -- and I am sure they would advocate following this
poster's (I hope) tongue-in-cheek suggestion to arm the border patrol
helicopters with machine guns.

But what is so wrong with stopping illegal immigration? Why is it okay to
fly helicopters up and down the Rio Grande 24/7 -- at huge expense -- but
building a fence is seen as some sort of "Berlin Wall"-type of deal?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Beckman]

Exactly my thought:

Just shoot back...

Jay B

[W P Dixon]

Interesting,
The USMC has some very nicely equipped Whiskey Cobras they could send up
with the border patrol, and OH they are stationed right there at MCAS YUMA!

I know where you are coming from Jay, my 1st wife was of hispanic
descent, father Nuevo Laredo, mexico and Mom from Bogota Columbia....and
they did not like the wide open borders either. Though my father in law had
a very good paying job he said the illegals kept the pay down for Mexicans
that were here legally.
They are really good folks and I think very highly of them. Great family
that loved a reason for a fiesta!!!!!;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:DxvPe.282087$_o.58618@attbi_s71...
>> Perhaps we should arm the copter with machine guns and fire back?
>
> No, that would be barbaric.
>
> However, I am continually amazed at the vociferous opposition to actually
> controlling our borders. For some reason the ACLU and a host of other
> do-gooder organizations find it anathema for America to actually restrict
> immigration to legal immigrants only -- a fact that baffles me.
>
> We are friends with a family from Columbia. They came to America the hard
> way -- legally -- and have struggled over the last decade with obtaining
> green cards for their family members, and with becoming American citizens.
> It has been a tough row to hoe, and they are rightfully proud of their
> efforts and status.
>
> They are also the most vocally anti-Mexican group of people I have EVER
> known. Their attitude toward illegal immigrants borders on Fascist --
> they simply despise them for cheating and taking the easy way -- at what
> they see as their expense -- and I am sure they would advocate following
> this poster's (I hope) tongue-in-cheek suggestion to arm the border patrol
> helicopters with machine guns.
>
> But what is so wrong with stopping illegal immigration? Why is it okay
> to fly helicopters up and down the Rio Grande 24/7 -- at huge expense --
> but building a fence is seen as some sort of "Berlin Wall"-type of deal?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Dave Stadt]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:DxvPe.282087$_o.58618@attbi_s71...
> > Perhaps we should arm the copter with machine guns and fire back?
>
> No, that would be barbaric.
>
> However, I am continually amazed at the vociferous opposition to actually
> controlling our borders. For some reason the ACLU and a host of other
> do-gooder organizations find it anathema for America to actually restrict
> immigration to legal immigrants only -- a fact that baffles me.
>
> We are friends with a family from Columbia. They came to America the hard
> way -- legally -- and have struggled over the last decade with obtaining
> green cards for their family members, and with becoming American citizens.
> It has been a tough row to hoe, and they are rightfully proud of their
> efforts and status.
>
> They are also the most vocally anti-Mexican group of people I have EVER
> known. Their attitude toward illegal immigrants borders on Fascist --
they
> simply despise them for cheating and taking the easy way -- at what they
see
> as their expense -- and I am sure they would advocate following this
> poster's (I hope) tongue-in-cheek suggestion to arm the border patrol
> helicopters with machine guns.
>
> But what is so wrong with stopping illegal immigration? Why is it okay
to
> fly helicopters up and down the Rio Grande 24/7 -- at huge expense -- but
> building a fence is seen as some sort of "Berlin Wall"-type of deal?

Very simple.....votes. Upset the Latino community and its all over.

> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Aluckyguess]

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> Interesting,
> The USMC has some very nicely equipped Whiskey Cobras they could send up
> with the border patrol, and OH they are stationed right there at MCAS
> YUMA!
>
> I know where you are coming from Jay, my 1st wife was of hispanic
> descent, father Nuevo Laredo, mexico and Mom from Bogota Columbia....and
> they did not like the wide open borders either. Though my father in law
> had a very good paying job he said the illegals kept the pay down for
> Mexicans that were here legally.

I never thought about that but he was right.
I think the reason they let them in is they are funding our social security
system with phony ID's. They pay in but will never collect.

> They are really good folks and I think very highly of them. Great
> family that loved a reason for a fiesta!!!!!;)
>
> Patrick
> student SPL
> aircraft structural mech
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:DxvPe.282087$_o.58618@attbi_s71...
>>> Perhaps we should arm the copter with machine guns and fire back?
>>
>> No, that would be barbaric.
>>
>> However, I am continually amazed at the vociferous opposition to actually
>> controlling our borders. For some reason the ACLU and a host of other
>> do-gooder organizations find it anathema for America to actually restrict
>> immigration to legal immigrants only -- a fact that baffles me.
>>
>> We are friends with a family from Columbia. They came to America the
>> hard way -- legally -- and have struggled over the last decade with
>> obtaining green cards for their family members, and with becoming
>> American citizens. It has been a tough row to hoe, and they are
>> rightfully proud of their efforts and status.
>>
>> They are also the most vocally anti-Mexican group of people I have EVER
>> known. Their attitude toward illegal immigrants borders on Fascist --
>> they simply despise them for cheating and taking the easy way -- at what
>> they see as their expense -- and I am sure they would advocate following
>> this poster's (I hope) tongue-in-cheek suggestion to arm the border
>> patrol helicopters with machine guns.
>>
>> But what is so wrong with stopping illegal immigration? Why is it okay
>> to fly helicopters up and down the Rio Grande 24/7 -- at huge expense --
>> but building a fence is seen as some sort of "Berlin Wall"-type of deal?
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>
>

[Aluckyguess]

All they have to do is go down to our local Home Depot and they could pick
up 200 of them on any day of the week. Now if they pull a truck over with
10-15 it makes the news. I just dont get it.
I do think there is going to be some sort of crack down. There is a lot of
talk on the radio these days.

[George Patterson]

Aluckyguess wrote:
>
> I think the reason they let them in is they are funding our social security
> system with phony ID's. They pay in but will never collect.

The illegals around here don't pay into the Social Security system. They don't
have those types of jobs.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

Aluckyguess wrote:
> All they have to do is go down to our local Home Depot and they could pick
> up 200 of them on any day of the week.

They could get quite a few at the train station in Red Bank, NJ.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Frankie]

> Very simple.....votes. Upset the Latino community and its all over.

Illegals can't vote.

Only US citizens can.

If the (legal) Latino community gets upset at the suggestion of tougher
border control, they are insulting their own people by implying all, or
most, Latinos are criminals.

Doh!

Frankie

[Frankie]

> I think the reason they let them in is they are funding our social
security
> system with phony ID's. They pay in but will never collect.

How?

Illegal immigrants don't pay social security taxes.

In fact, they don't pay taxes at all. That's the problem. They're paid in
cash, under the table. This represents tax-free income to the illegal, and
cheap labor for the employer.

Frankie

[W P Dixon]

Ain't it weird!
We all seem to know where they are but our Homeland Security doesn't?
Around 11 million they say, and can not find them. Hmmm is it just me or
does common sense say if you can't stop illegals at the border or find 11
million already here Osama himself could walk across the border and we would
never know it..well until something else blows up! Makes all these subway
searches and crap look real stupid in my book.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:jOwPe.4831$IG2.3516@trndny01...
> Aluckyguess wrote:
>> All they have to do is go down to our local Home Depot and they could
>> pick up 200 of them on any day of the week.
>
> They could get quite a few at the train station in Red Bank, NJ.
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Aluckyguess]

"Frankie" > wrote in message
k.net...
>> I think the reason they let them in is they are funding our social
> security
>> system with phony ID's. They pay in but will never collect.
>
> How?
>
> Illegal immigrants don't pay social security taxes.
Sure they do they get a phony ID and then find a job and the employer takes
out the taxes and SSI . The employer doesnt even know they are ilegal.
If the employer finds out he has to fire the employee or he can be fined.

>
> In fact, they don't pay taxes at all. That's the problem. They're paid in
> cash, under the table. This represents tax-free income to the illegal, and
> cheap labor for the employer.
>
> Frankie
>
>

[Aluckyguess]

Farmers were upset in Arizona. They did a crack down and there were not
enough laborers to pick the fields. I heard they eased up a bit to help them
out.

[Dave Stadt]

"Frankie" > wrote in message
k.net...
> > Very simple.....votes. Upset the Latino community and its all over.
>
> Illegals can't vote.
>
> Only US citizens can.
>
> If the (legal) Latino community gets upset at the suggestion of tougher
> border control, they are insulting their own people by implying all, or
> most, Latinos are criminals.
>
> Doh!
>
> Frankie


Listen to the Latino community leaders. You are dead wrong. Every time
talk of closing the border is mentioned they get on the racist band wagon.

[Jay Honeck]

>> Illegal immigrants don't pay social security taxes.

> Sure they do they get a phony ID and then find a job and the employer
> takes out the taxes and SSI . The employer doesnt even know they are
> ilegal.
> If the employer finds out he has to fire the employee or he can be fined.

That's incorrect. We interview Hispanic women all the time (for
housekeeping openings -- their primary source of income, methinks), and
require that each applicant list their Social Security number on their
application.

There is a phone number to call to verify any SS number. If it's not valid,
the person at the other end tells us that "This person should contact the
Social Security Administration, since there is something wrong with their
number." They don't really care if it indicates that the person is an
illegal alien.

In a perfect world, they would send the gendarmes over to arrest the
illegal -- I would be happy to cooperate -- but they have ZERO interest in
doing this. And apparently ZERO contact with any law enforcement agency.

The Federal Government is screwed up far beyond what the average person on
the street can imagine.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> If [the SSN is] not valid,
> the person at the other end tells us that "This person should contact the
> Social Security Administration, since there is something wrong with their
> number." They don't really care if it indicates that the person is an
> illegal alien.
>
> In a perfect world, they would send the gendarmes over to arrest the
> illegal...

You mean, the same way it works in the ADIZ if ATC makes a boo-boo?

I'm not in support of illegal aliens, but I disagree that "closing the
borders" will solve any of our problems. I also disagree that zero
tolerance is a good solution for anything, be it drugs, work rules,
terror, or aviation errors.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> I'm not in support of illegal aliens, but I disagree that "closing the
> borders" will solve any of our problems.

It's not "closing the borders" -- it's "controlling the borders" -- and you
don't think that doing so will solve ANY of our problems?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ash Wyllie]

Aluckyguess opined

>Farmers were upset in Arizona. They did a crack down and there were not
>enough laborers to pick the fields. I heard they eased up a bit to help them
>out.

1) Secure the border.

2) Boot the illegals.

then

3) A guest worker program.




-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[Jose]

> It's not "closing the borders" -- it's "controlling the borders" -- and you
> don't think that doing so will solve ANY of our problems?

No.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Michelle P]

Perhaps we should arm the border patrol with rocks so they can return
"fire".
I was a the the Boeing Museum of flight a couple of weeks ago and saw
the first air to air weapons. Bricks cut in half. I think we should
return to these. True skill is required to hit your opponent.
Michelle

wrote:

>Rocks Thrown at Border Patrol Chopper
>Aug 25 3:31 PM US/Eastern
>
>
>
>

[W P Dixon]

Hmmm,
Jose's Aircraft INC,....come on down and let our dopehead mechs rebuild
the engine on your Cessna! Take a ride with the drunk CFI for the thrill of
your life! Come fly with us as we smuggle terrorists into the country! But
wait ...sorry we can't ...we don't have any work rules and no one has shown
up ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech
"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> If [the SSN is] not valid, the person at the other end tells us that
>> "This person should contact the Social Security Administration, since
>> there is something wrong with their number." They don't really care if
>> it indicates that the person is an illegal alien.
>>
>> In a perfect world, they would send the gendarmes over to arrest the
>> illegal...
>
> You mean, the same way it works in the ADIZ if ATC makes a boo-boo?
>
> I'm not in support of illegal aliens, but I disagree that "closing the
> borders" will solve any of our problems. I also disagree that zero
> tolerance is a good solution for anything, be it drugs, work rules,
> terror, or aviation errors.
>
> Jose
> --
> Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
> except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
> universe.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:4KwPe.4821$IG2.1902@trndny01...
> Aluckyguess wrote:
> >
> > I think the reason they let them in is they are funding our social
security
> > system with phony ID's. They pay in but will never collect.
>
> The illegals around here don't pay into the Social Security system. They
don't
> have those types of jobs.
>
There's also a bunch of people living near the US-Mexico border that collect
SS checks that never paid a dime into the system. They have a PO box in the
town on the US side of the border and check it once a month.

About ten years ago, I worked with a fellow who had immigrated from the old
USSR just a few months earlier. After a couple months he brought his mother
over and within a month she was drawing SS benefits since she was over 63 or
whatever. Yup...just weeks after hitting the US for the first time.

There's a neat trick practiced about coming to the US when 8 1/2 months
pregnant, then having your delivery here. Kid automatically becomes a US
citizen and Mom is entitled to all sorts of goodies.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
t...
>
>
> Very simple.....votes. Upset the Latino community and its all over.
>

When Arizona passed it's Prop 200, the highest percentage block voting FOR
it (some 75% or so) was the legal/2nd generation Hispanics.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Frankie" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> > > Very simple.....votes. Upset the Latino community and its all over.
> >
> > Illegals can't vote.
> >
> > Only US citizens can.
> >
> > If the (legal) Latino community gets upset at the suggestion of tougher
> > border control, they are insulting their own people by implying all, or
> > most, Latinos are criminals.
> >
> > Doh!
> >
> > Frankie
>
>
> Listen to the Latino community leaders. You are dead wrong. Every time
> talk of closing the border is mentioned they get on the racist band wagon.

That's the "leaders"; listen to the average Joe (or should I say "Jose").
See post about AZ's Prop 200.

[Matt Barrow]

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> Ain't it weird!
> We all seem to know where they are but our Homeland Security doesn't?
> Around 11 million they say, and can not find them. Hmmm is it just me or
> does common sense say if you can't stop illegals at the border or find 11
> million already here Osama himself could walk across the border and we
would
> never know it..well until something else blows up! Makes all these subway
> searches and crap look real stupid in my book.
>

The illegal aliens must be flying GA aircraft into DCA.

[Matt Barrow]

"Aluckyguess" > wrote in message
...
>
> Farmers were upset in Arizona. They did a crack down and there were not
> enough laborers to pick the fields. I heard they eased up a bit to help
them
> out.
>
There's plenty of laborers; they get migrant worker (temporary)permits (??)
easily.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Michelle P" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Perhaps we should arm the border patrol with rocks so they can return
> "fire".
> I was a the the Boeing Museum of flight a couple of weeks ago and saw
> the first air to air weapons. Bricks cut in half. I think we should
> return to these. True skill is required to hit your opponent.

A "Y" shaped stick and some rubber --- a slingshot.

[Darrel Toepfer]

wrote:

> Rocks Thrown at Border Patrol Chopper

> One baseball-sized rock gashed the rotor, forcing the pilot to
> land nearby, said Michael Gramley, spokesman for the Border
> Patrol sector based in Yuma, Ariz.
---
> Perhaps we should arm the copter with machine guns and fire back?

Maybe get that person a baseball pitching contract...

[Matt Barrow]

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
> > Rocks Thrown at Border Patrol Chopper
>
> > One baseball-sized rock gashed the rotor, forcing the pilot to
> > land nearby, said Michael Gramley, spokesman for the Border
> > Patrol sector based in Yuma, Ariz.
> ---
> > Perhaps we should arm the copter with machine guns and fire back?
>
> Maybe get that person a baseball pitching contract...

The Rockies could use him!


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[George Patterson]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> There's plenty of laborers; they get migrant worker (temporary)permits (??)
> easily.

Not this year. Apparently, someone at immigration decided these guys were easy
targets and did a big roundup. You are correct that they have permits and were
actually legal, but that didn't change anything. By the time the workers made it
back across the border and into the fields, a big chunk of this year's harvest
was lost.

NPR was interviewing a California peach grower yesterday about the situation (I
think it was on "All Things Considered"). His crop has a relatively short
harvest season, and the roundup didn't hit him too badly, but he still had tons
of fruit rot in the fields.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Andrew Gideon]

George Patterson wrote:

> You are correct that they have permits and were
> actually legal, but that didn't change anything.

Am I following this correctly? Homeland security, having failed to handle
the problem of illegal immigration, deported *legal* immigrants?

Based upon this, I need to take a better look at my neighbors. Bin Laden is
probably living in some suburban US town watching CNN. The largest threat
to his health is that he'll kill himself laughing at our "war against
terrorism".

- Andrew

[Jose]

> Jose's Aircraft INC,....come on down and let our dopehead mechs rebuild the engine on your Cessna! Take a ride with the drunk CFI for the thrill of your life! Come fly with us as we smuggle terrorists into the country! But wait ...sorry we can't ...we don't have any work rules and no one has shown up ;)

Jose's Aircraft School dot COM... you don't even have to come on down -
we'll train you where you are. Using the latest Microsoft Flight
Simulator 1997 we'll teach you how to fly a 747 without even leaving
your seat - AND with our exclusive ActiveNewsFeeds (flash and Kazza
required) we'll even give you loads of reasons why you'd want to.

Flight tests given by modem (56K or better connection required)! BYOB,
and we'll have one too!

Never mind the expense and risk of smuggling in terrorists - use the
ones right in your own home town!

But wait... sorry, we can't... there's an embargo on ideas.

:) Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Frankie]

>.... By the time the workers made it back across the
> border and into the fields, a big chunk of this year's harvest
> was lost.
>
> NPR was interviewing a California peach grower ....
> ...he still had tons of fruit rot in the fields.

My heart bleeds....

Please, what's really going on here is that the employer (farmer, grower,
whatever) was too cheap to hire more labor to come in and finish the job. I
believe many employers do this intentionally to protest the cut-off of their
cheap labor supply.

The implication is that the American economy will somehow shut down if we
don't allow illegal immigration, when all that's really needed is for
employers to be more responsible.

Frankie

[Frankie]

> Listen to the Latino community leaders. You are dead wrong. Every time
> talk of closing the border is mentioned they get on the racist band wagon.

Exactly.

Many Latino leaders feign offense and claim racists are trying to keep out
Latinos. This is standard practice, and is very effective. It scares people
away from the issue.

But look what's happened:

If trying to keep out illegal immigrants equates to racism, and Latino
leaders claim offense, they have unwittingly associated all Latinos with
illegal immigrants (criminals). Thus they've just insulted the whole Latino
community by insinuating all Latinos came here illegally; that the whole lot
of them has no interest in coming to America legally!

It's twisted logic.

Frankie

[john smith]

> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message
>> I know where you are coming from Jay, my 1st wife was of hispanic
>>descent, father Nuevo Laredo, mexico and Mom from Bogota Columbia....and
>>they did not like the wide open borders either. Though my father in law
>>had a very good paying job he said the illegals kept the pay down for
>>Mexicans that were here legally.

Aluckyguess wrote:
> I never thought about that but he was right.
> I think the reason they let them in is they are funding our social security
> system with phony ID's. They pay in but will never collect.

And there are people who are working to allow them to collect that money.

[john smith]

Aluckyguess wrote:
> Sure they do they get a phony ID and then find a job and the employer takes
> out the taxes and SSI . The employer doesnt even know they are ilegal.
> If the employer finds out he has to fire the employee or he can be fined.

$10,000/person/day

[john smith]

Aluckyguess wrote:
> Farmers were upset in Arizona. They did a crack down and there were not
> enough laborers to pick the fields. I heard they eased up a bit to help them
> out.

Ohio has a problem now.
Not enough migrants came to Ohio this summer to pick cucumbers. Over 25%
of this years crop is rotting in the fields.

[john smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> In a perfect world, they would send the gendarmes over to arrest the
> illegal -- I would be happy to cooperate -- but they have ZERO interest in
> doing this. And apparently ZERO contact with any law enforcement agency.

Social Security is not Customs and Border Protection nor Immigration.
There are walls put up between the "hands"... deliberately!

[George Patterson]

Frankie wrote:
>
> The implication is that the American economy will somehow shut down if we
> don't allow illegal immigration, when all that's really needed is for
> employers to be more responsible.

You must have missed the point that these workers are *not* illegal, nor or they
immigrants. They are temporary workers who have permits to allow them to come in
for the season.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Frankie]

> You must have missed the point that these workers are *not* illegal..

Oops...my mistake.

But I still think the employers are being cheap, and my point still applies
in a thread about illegals.

Frankie

[Jose]

> But I still think the employers are being cheap, and my point still applies
> in a thread about illegals.

All employers are cheap, and all employees are mercenary. That's how
the system works.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[George Patterson]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
> Am I following this correctly? Homeland security, having failed to handle
> the problem of illegal immigration, deported *legal* immigrants?

Bingo!

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Michael]

>> Perhaps we should arm the copter with machine guns and fire back?
> No, that would be barbaric.

Why? A rock can certainly bring down a civilian helicopter if it hits
something critical - a rotor disc, an oil or fuel line, whatever.
Military helicopters are armored against this - but as a result they
weigh a ton (literally that - or more) and cost a fortune to operate.

If this happens too low to autorotate but too high to put down without
energy, the pilot and passenger(s) will be injured or killed. Why is
it barbaric for the pilot to shoot back?

> But what is so wrong with stopping illegal immigration?

It would make servants something only the very rich could afford.

Actually, what illegal immigration does is distort our economy and
stifle progress.

Let me give you an example. Most of the pilots at my home field don't
cut their own grass. They have someone come out to do it. It's
miserable work - riding a mower in the hot sun, loading and unloading
equipment - but the price is quite reasonable. It works out to
something like $15-$20 hr on a contract basis. The guy shows up in a
truck with an old gas-powered tractor (that spews lots of hydrocarbon
into the atmosphere) and does all the work. I suspect that he clears
maybe $10/hr at best, with no benefits, when you figure in travel time
and his expenses, and it's seasonal work at that.

This (like most of the jobs illegals do) could be automated - but not
trivially. What's necessary is a mower with some intelligence. It
would know where the boundaries of the property are, and what parts of
it are to be mowed, and it would have some simple sensors to keep from
running over the neighbor's kid (or cat). It would peobably be
electric - which would mean a limited operation time, as it would have
to go back to its station and recharge every 30 minutes - but since it
would never forget what it already did, that would be no big deal. All
the pieces are there - this would be no more complicated than
industrial automation - but there's no incentive. It would cost about
$3 million to design and test the thing, and the first batch you sold
would have bugs that would need to be worked out. Since most people
wouldn't buy one (they would just hire the illegals) you would never
recoup the R&D cost - you would need to sell 50,000 of them in the
first two or three years to make it work, and the first batch would
probably cost $1000 each in such low volumes

Of course it would be a lot different if you had to pay someone a
living wage to do the job. Then the cost would be more like $60/hr,
and people would buy the thing even at $800. Of course as the volume
increased and the patents ran out, the price would fall to where there
it was cheaper than a gasoline riding mower.

This is just one example, but it's fairly typical. Cheap labor is
always the enemy of automation, and certain segments of our economy are
addicted to cheap labor. In the long run, of course, automation is
cheaper than even the cheapest labor (unless you're willing to have
people working and STILL living in a squalor most of us would find
deplorable) but the industries that develop automation can't afford to
think in the long term. If it doesn't have a 3 year payback and a 15%
ROI, it won't happen.

Michael

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT wrote:
> So I should ****-can my plans to fly for a living and go mow lawns at
> $60/hr?? Sounds like of my co-worker's wife who gets something like
> $150/hr to [get this!] braid horse manes and tails..


Of course he makes more money; look at the ****ty conditions in which he works.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"john smith" > wrote in message
.. .
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> In a perfect world, they would send the gendarmes over to arrest the
>> illegal -- I would be happy to cooperate -- but they have ZERO interest
>> in doing this. And apparently ZERO contact with any law enforcement
>> agency.
>
> Social Security is not Customs and Border Protection nor Immigration.
> There are walls put up between the "hands"... deliberately!


When a employee is hired they must complete an I-9 to prove they are legal
to work in the US. This form had the Dept of Justice written at the top
until very recently. Now it has Dept. of Homeland Security on it. All the
DOH would have to do to enforce the immigration laws is require employers to
report anyone who can't produce the ID required for the form.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:RdEPe.281342$x96.23410@attbi_s72...
> That's incorrect. We interview Hispanic women all the time (for
> housekeeping openings -- their primary source of income, methinks), and
> require that each applicant list their Social Security number on their
> application.
>
> There is a phone number to call to verify any SS number. If it's not
> valid, the person at the other end tells us that "This person should
> contact the Social Security Administration, since there is something wrong
> with their number." They don't really care if it indicates that the
> person is an illegal alien.
>
> In a perfect world, they would send the gendarmes over to arrest the
> illegal -- I would be happy to cooperate -- but they have ZERO interest in
> doing this. And apparently ZERO contact with any law enforcement agency.
>
> The Federal Government is screwed up far beyond what the average person on
> the street can imagine.


You know Jay, you are under no obligation to call that number? Your
obligation is to check the IDs that the person you have offered a job gives
you when you complete the I9. And the burden of if they are real is would a
reasonable person believe these IDs are real.

Also, if you are calling on just the Hispanic applicants you are
discriminating.

[Jay Honeck]

> When a employee is hired they must complete an I-9 to prove they are legal
> to work in the US. This form had the Dept of Justice written at the top
> until very recently. Now it has Dept. of Homeland Security on it. All the
> DOH would have to do to enforce the immigration laws is require employers to
> report anyone who can't produce the ID required for the form.

The civil libertarians would have a bird.

Imagine, employers actually being required to report applicants that
are in the country illegally? Or, better yet, requiring prison time
for those employers who knowingly hire them? Dang, I'll bet we'd have
the problem solved in a matter of weeks.

As an employer, however, I can understand how some would find the
mandatory nature of this law to be an onerous burden -- but what I
don't understand is why (in the short term) we can't make reporting
voluntary?

At the moment, when I discover that an applicant is illegal, I have no
where to turn with that information. Who do I call? The State Patrol?
The police? Ghost Busters? No one seems to care.

It's a stupid, screwed-up system that could be fixed by changing less
than five relatively minor things. Why can't we get this right?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Clark]

On 26 Aug 2005 11:15:19 -0700, "Michael"
> wrote:


>This (like most of the jobs illegals do) could be automated - but not
>trivially. What's necessary is a mower with some intelligence. It
>would know where the boundaries of the property are, and what parts of
>it are to be mowed, and it would have some simple sensors to keep from
>running over the neighbor's kid (or cat). It would peobably be
>electric - which would mean a limited operation time, as it would have
>to go back to its station and recharge every 30 minutes - but since it
>would never forget what it already did, that would be no big deal. All
>the pieces are there - this would be no more complicated than

google search for automatic lawn mower comes up with 162,000 hits,
including production electric robotic lawn mowers already for sale...

[Eduardo K.]

In article e.com>,
Andrew Gideon > wrote:
>
>Am I following this correctly? Homeland security, having failed to handle
>the problem of illegal immigration, deported *legal* immigrants?
>
>Based upon this, I need to take a better look at my neighbors. Bin Laden is
>probably living in some suburban US town watching CNN. The largest threat
>to his health is that he'll kill himself laughing at our "war against
>terrorism".
>

Very nicely put. :)

--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | "World domination, now"
http://e.nn.cl | Linus Torvalds

[Dave Stadt]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> > When a employee is hired they must complete an I-9 to prove they are
legal
> > to work in the US. This form had the Dept of Justice written at the top
> > until very recently. Now it has Dept. of Homeland Security on it. All
the
> > DOH would have to do to enforce the immigration laws is require
employers to
> > report anyone who can't produce the ID required for the form.
>
> The civil libertarians would have a bird.
>
> Imagine, employers actually being required to report applicants that
> are in the country illegally? Or, better yet, requiring prison time
> for those employers who knowingly hire them? Dang, I'll bet we'd have
> the problem solved in a matter of weeks.
>
> As an employer, however, I can understand how some would find the
> mandatory nature of this law to be an onerous burden -- but what I
> don't understand is why (in the short term) we can't make reporting
> voluntary?
>
> At the moment, when I discover that an applicant is illegal, I have no
> where to turn with that information. Who do I call? The State Patrol?
> The police? Ghost Busters? No one seems to care.
>
> It's a stupid, screwed-up system that could be fixed by changing less
> than five relatively minor things. Why can't we get this right?

Some large liberal municipalities have laws against local law enforcement
providing information about illegal aliens to the Feds.

> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[grubertm]

There is something ironic about US citizens whose families have lived
here for less than 400 years complaining about illegal immigrants...
Anyway, the very real reason why no politician is willing to touch this
issue is because the US economy has become dependent on cheap illegal
labor. So to adjust ash's proposal:

2a) Huge price increases in all domestic products due to regular wages
being paid
2b) Consumers pick cheaper imported merchandise
2c) US companies fold or go overseas
Thus
3) No need for guest worker program

- Marco

[Aluckyguess]

"Michelle P" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Perhaps we should arm the border patrol with rocks so they can return
> "fire".
> I was a the the Boeing Museum of flight a couple of weeks ago and saw the
> first air to air weapons. Bricks cut in half. I think we should return to
> these. True skill is required to hit your opponent.
> Michelle
>
Salt rock, that will teach them.
> wrote:
>
>>Rocks Thrown at Border Patrol Chopper
>>Aug 25 3:31 PM US/Eastern
>>
>>
>

[W P Dixon]

AHHHH,
Take the ****ters out of commercial airliners for awhile and you won't
feel so bad. ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message ...
> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:43:41 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> > wrote:
>
>>The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT wrote:
>>> So I should ****-can my plans to fly for a living and go mow lawns at
>>> $60/hr?? Sounds like of my co-worker's wife who gets something like
>>> $150/hr to [get this!] braid horse manes and tails..
>>
>>
>>Of course he makes more money; look at the ****ty conditions in which he
>>works.
>
> Cute. I just closed doors on my biz of nearly 8 years becasue I was
> tired of schleping through people's toenail clippings and wading knee
> deep in fetid water getting buildings linked up with fiber optic
> cable... THAT is a ****ty environment and I never made anywhere close
> to $150/hour.

[Andrew Gideon]

Michael wrote:

> the first batch you sold
> would have bugs that would need to be worked out

So much for the cat or kid, eh?

<Laugh>

- Andrew

[George Patterson]

Ash Wyllie wrote:
>
> 3) A guest worker program.

They already have the guest worker program.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Jay Honeck]

> Ohio has a problem now.
> Not enough migrants came to Ohio this summer to pick cucumbers. Over 25%
> of this years crop is rotting in the fields.

And now they're in a real pickle...

(Sorry!)

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Some large liberal municipalities have laws against local law enforcement
> providing information about illegal aliens to the Feds.

What? Where?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Also, if you are calling on just the Hispanic applicants you are
> discriminating.

We call the SS administration hot line on any applicant who is obviously
(and, admittedly, right on the application form) not born in the United
States.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> There is something ironic about US citizens whose families have lived
> here for less than 400 years complaining about illegal immigrants...

Yes, there is. But never before have new immigrants so arrogantly
*expected* everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

When my ancestors arrived in America, in 1852, they spoke only German. They
attended German language schools during the day, took English classes at
night, and lived in ghettos where they could speak their native tongue
comfortably -- not unlike the barrios of today.

But the difference was, NO ONE expected the American taxpayers to foot the
bill for their bi-lingual education. No one expected signage to be written
in both languages, at the inconvenience and expense of the natives. And
they certainly would never have dreamed of all the bi-lingual crap we must
deal with every day, from ATMs to voice mail systems.

Everyone understood that English was the coin of the realm They either
learned English within six months of landing at Ellis Island -- or they
failed. It was that simple.

AND they arrived legally, by the way. While this is apparently not a
difference that is appreciated by many today, in my book it's a HUGE
difference..

Every time I run a charge card through the machine at Target (or Wal-Mart),
and it wastes my time asking which language I want to read, I vocally
complain to the store employees. This is AMERICA, and the language here is
ENGLISH -- and I shouldn't have to TELL THEM THAT. The incompetent moron
who invented those infernal bilingual charge/ATM machines should be made to
spend all of eternity trying to figure out which button to push on the
menu...

Let me describe this issue in cold economic facts, rather than the emotion
of English versus Spanish: For every million shoppers who must spend an
average of 3 seconds (probably far longer) trying to figure out which button
to push (Spanish or English), that is 34.7 DAYS spent wasting everyone's
time in line, making a stupid, unnecessary choice.

(1,000,000 x 3 seconds = 3,000,000 seconds divided by 60 = 50,000 minutes
divided by 60 = 833.33 hours divided by 24 = 34.7 days)

Now, multiply that times 150,000,000 or so shoppers, and you can see we're
talking a HUGE economic impact -- and that's just one little question on one
little screen that we all must use.

It's insane, but it's the law -- and there's apparently nothing we can do to
change it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> Some large liberal municipalities have laws against local law enforcement
> providing information about illegal aliens to the Feds.

It would be a pretty scary world if every cop were a link to the feds.

Don't worry though, as long as you aren't doing anything wrong, the
current administration won't hurt you.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[N93332]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:nJRPe.285478$_o.259735@attbi_s71...
> This is AMERICA, and the language here is ENGLISH -- and I shouldn't have
> to TELL THEM THAT.
> It's insane, but it's the law -- and there's apparently nothing we can do
> to change it.

It could be changed if the U.S. had an OFFICIAL language. Until the US makes
a law saying that English (or whatever) is the official language, the
gov'ment will still print IRS forms, census forms, etc., in several
languages. There is no incentive for non-English speaking people (legal or
illegal) to learn English if everything they need is available in their
native language.

[Skywise]

wrote in :

> Rocks Thrown at Border Patrol Chopper
<Snipola>

I just got done reading the 63 replies (currently) to this post.

I'm not going ot get into the illegal alien issue since that
seems to be getting addressed quite nicely.

What I want to mention is that no one has addressed the issue of
a helicopter getting hit with a baseball sized rock thrown from
the ground!

Either the guy had a hell of an arm or that chopper was pretty low.
I'd be curious to know what it was doing so low, unless it was
in the act of landing or taking off. Patrolling the border is
something best done from a bit of altitude. I would think they'd
be operating above the deadmans curve, not below it.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Matt Barrow]

"Eduardo K." > wrote in message
...
> In article e.com>,
> Andrew Gideon > wrote:
> >
> >Am I following this correctly? Homeland security, having failed to
handle
> >the problem of illegal immigration, deported *legal* immigrants?
> >
> >Based upon this, I need to take a better look at my neighbors. Bin Laden
is
> >probably living in some suburban US town watching CNN. The largest
threat
> >to his health is that he'll kill himself laughing at our "war against
> >terrorism".
> >
>
> Very nicely put. :)
>
And he laughed at pre-9/11 efforts to make the issue a "Law Enforcement"
effort (from his fatwa in 1996 until 2001). At the very least, he's been on
the run for nearly four years and much of his hierarchy is dead or in jail.

To call it a war on terrorism (a tactic) is like having a war against
pincers movements or end-runs.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:nJRPe.285478$_o.259735@attbi_s71...
> > There is something ironic about US citizens whose families have lived
> > here for less than 400 years complaining about illegal immigrants...
>
> Yes, there is. But never before have new immigrants so arrogantly
> *expected* everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

And which codified law did the immigrants 150-400 year ago break? Which
property laws did they break?

[Matt Barrow]

"N93332" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:nJRPe.285478$_o.259735@attbi_s71...
> > This is AMERICA, and the language here is ENGLISH -- and I shouldn't
have
> > to TELL THEM THAT.
> > It's insane, but it's the law -- and there's apparently nothing we can
do
> > to change it.
>
> It could be changed if the U.S. had an OFFICIAL language. Until the US
makes
> a law saying that English (or whatever) is the official language, the
> gov'ment will still print IRS forms, census forms, etc., in several
> languages. There is no incentive for non-English speaking people (legal or
> illegal) to learn English if everything they need is available in their
> native language.
The only languages they are printed in is English and Spanish -- are you
aware of other languages?

[Matt Barrow]

"grubertm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> There is something ironic about US citizens whose families have lived
> here for less than 400 years complaining about illegal immigrants...

What law did those immigrants, 400 years ago, violate?

> Anyway, the very real reason why no politician is willing to touch this
> issue is because the US economy has become dependent on cheap illegal
> labor.

Can you site the percentage of the US economy that interacts with illegal
labor?

(I suspect you're merely barfing back some phrases your teachers and the MSM
have been upchucking for years).

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-08-27, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> they certainly would never have dreamed of all the bi-lingual crap we must
> deal with every day, from ATMs to voice mail systems.

Nothing wrong with multi-lingual ATMs - it's easy, it's just done in
software. I rather like it on the very occasional visit I make to
France. In fact, the ATMs here won't ask you a language if your bank
card is recognised as local.

> Let me describe this issue in cold economic facts, rather than the emotion
> of English versus Spanish: For every million shoppers who must spend an
> average of 3 seconds (probably far longer) trying to figure out which button
> to push (Spanish or English), that is 34.7 DAYS spent wasting everyone's
> time in line, making a stupid, unnecessary choice.

No it isn't. Most people have realised by now you can swipe your card
whilst the checker is scanning the goods. Therefore the tasks are
happening in paralell - unless it takes you SO LONG to make that
selection that the checker beats you scanning the items.

In any case, it certainly doesn't take me 3 seconds to choose the
language. It's hardly something that needs "figuring out" unless you're
functionally illiterate.

The people who are really wasting time are those who insist on paying
for $3 worth of groceries with a check!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Flyingmonk]

My father brought me here legally from Laos when I was nine as a
refugee. He started working the very first week that we got here. We
were never on any kind of assistance program. Neither he nor I have
ever collected unemployment. We never got anything translated for us.
We got by just find and we learned to adapt to and appreciate this
country.

If everthing is being translated for them, these newcomers, I think
they will have a harder time to adjust because they will wait for
assistance every single time.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Moo]

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message news:
> My father brought me here legally from Laos when I was nine as a
> refugee. He started working the very first week that we got here. We
> were never on any kind of assistance program. Neither he nor I have
> ever collected unemployment. We never got anything translated for us.
> We got by just find and we learned to adapt to and appreciate this
> country.

Haven't read a follow-up to this.

Without immigration, most countries can't survive. The thing that strangles
them is not described by the story you tell. A brief reading of the history
of your adoptive land will tell you of the protective resources you should
have. And, deserve.

moo

[Moo]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:nJRPe.285478$_o.259735@attbi_s71...
>> > There is something ironic about US citizens whose families have lived
>> > here for less than 400 years complaining about illegal immigrants...
>>
>> Yes, there is. But never before have new immigrants so arrogantly
>> *expected* everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.
>
> And which codified law did the immigrants 150-400 year ago break? Which
> property laws did they break?

The law that states that they who have the guns determine the borders. And
then demand money from everyone within to manage their lives. The
immigrants *made* the GD property laws. Think.

moo

[Dave Stadt]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:7nRPe.282969$x96.247920@attbi_s72...
> > Some large liberal municipalities have laws against local law
enforcement
> > providing information about illegal aliens to the Feds.
>
> What? Where?

IIRC Denver and some other large western cities.

> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jose]

> This is AMERICA, and the language here is
> ENGLISH -- and I shouldn't have to TELL THEM THAT.

This is America, where citizens don't want to learn anything anymore,
not another language, not enough mathematics to add a hamburger and
fries without a computer, not world geography or culture, where weather
reports have all but become smiley faces and frowney faces because
nobody knows or cares what an isobar is, where from day one people are
taught to "feel good" about their underachievement, and where people
expect fifty dollars an hour to attach bolts on an assembly line when
someone in China will do for fifty cents and be grateful for the
opportunity. And we have the audacity to be indignant.

> For every million shoppers who must spend an
> average of 3 seconds (probably far longer) trying to figure out which button
> to push (Spanish or English), that is 34.7 DAYS spent wasting everyone's
> time in line, making a stupid, unnecessary choice.
>
> (1,000,000 x 3 seconds = 3,000,000 seconds divided by 60 = 50,000 minutes
> divided by 60 = 833.33 hours divided by 24 = 34.7 days)

The choice is unnecessary to =you= because =you= believe it should be
arranged for =your= comfort and convenience. What about "paper or
plastic" (or skip the bag, If I need a bag to hold a roll of film while
I walk to the car I shouldn't be shopping), "cash or credit", "credit or
debit", "would you like fries with that", and "your call is important to
us".

You're on the wrong boat.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

> There is no incentive for non-English speaking people (legal or
> illegal) to learn English if everything they need is available in their
> native language.

There's no incentive for Americans to learn anything anymore.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Skywise wrote:

> What I want to mention is that no one has addressed the issue of
> a helicopter getting hit with a baseball sized rock thrown from
> the ground!

I said offer him a baseball pitching contract...

[Ash Wyllie]

George Patterson opined

>Ash Wyllie wrote:
>>
>> 3) A guest worker program.

>They already have the guest worker program.

I was thinking of an official plan.


-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[W P Dixon]

well ,
The drive up ATM machine is in braille ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "N93332" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> news:nJRPe.285478$_o.259735@attbi_s71...
>> > This is AMERICA, and the language here is ENGLISH -- and I shouldn't
> have
>> > to TELL THEM THAT.
>> > It's insane, but it's the law -- and there's apparently nothing we can
> do
>> > to change it.
>>
>> It could be changed if the U.S. had an OFFICIAL language. Until the US
> makes
>> a law saying that English (or whatever) is the official language, the
>> gov'ment will still print IRS forms, census forms, etc., in several
>> languages. There is no incentive for non-English speaking people (legal
>> or
>> illegal) to learn English if everything they need is available in their
>> native language.
> The only languages they are printed in is English and Spanish -- are you
> aware of other languages?
>
>

[Skywise]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in news:z%WPe.5$nw.170
@news.uswest.net:

<Snipola>
> The only languages they are printed in is English and Spanish -- are you
> aware of other languages?

Don't know about those specific forms, but the backside of my utility
bills have help information in no less than five languages besides
english. The last time I was at my local DMV the signs were in about
as many languages and IIRC, you could take the driving test in about
a dozen different languages.

As for language on the ATM's, they keep 'redesigning' the layout.
Every couple months you have to pause and search for the appropriate
button for your language choice because they keep moving the menu
selections around 'to help serve you better'. So far in my area it's
only two choices. Considering the number of languages spoken around
here, it won't be long before it's more.

Actually, you have to pause and search for every button choice
because they keep moving them around. So it's not just the language
button that's a problem on the ATM's.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Montblack]

("Matt Barrow" wrote)
> Can you site the percentage of the US economy that interacts with illegal
> labor?


Illegal labor is a much bigger problem than people realize. If the
government says the number is 5 million, then the number is 25 million!!

Mexicans are EVERYWHERE. MOST are illegal. The US immigration system has
imploded on its bureaucratic self.

This country has built up an infrastructure over 150 years. Millions of
Mexicans have invaded the US to get a piece of that infrastructure. Booty
isn't always hauled away by an invading army.


Montblack

[kontiki]

Frankie wrote:
> My heart bleeds....
>
> Please, what's really going on here is that the employer (farmer, grower,
> whatever) was too cheap to hire more labor to come in and finish the job. I
> believe many employers do this intentionally to protest the cut-off of their
> cheap labor supply.

Exactly... and most Americans are too cheap to pay what it would REALLY cost
to buy food, a home or most other things (except automobiles) if real actual
citizens did the work and got paid a fair wage for the work.

LAbor is just at the bottom of the food chain... Govenment is at the top.. it
sucks at all the money from everyone's pockets from the laborer to the larges
corporations, their stockholders (lots of retired people) and the CEOs.

[kontiki]

Montblack wrote:
> Illegal labor is a much bigger problem than people realize. If the
> government says the number is 5 million, then the number is 25 million!!
>
> Mexicans are EVERYWHERE. MOST are illegal. The US immigration system has
> imploded on its bureaucratic self.
>
> This country has built up an infrastructure over 150 years. Millions of
> Mexicans have invaded the US to get a piece of that infrastructure.
> Booty isn't always hauled away by an invading army.

Exactly. It amazes me that people people can justify the concept if illegal
labor because it is [supposedly] keeping the cost of goods down. In the end
this is a bad thing... not only is this just not really true but like wage
and price controls it results in problems down the road. If you honestly
add up all of the costs (to every single working citizen) of providing all
the social services to this sea of illegal, like health care and educating
their children you would be shocked. This cost is not honestly being considered
as tacked on to just living in the united states.

We must also consider the long term effects to a society that literally
encourages the dilution of its existing culture. Immigrants years ago
generally worked harder at "becoming" Americans... learning the language
and becoming part of the American dream. This is much less so these days.

Personally I believe it is because these illegals are not required to
make any investment in America... they just show up, make money and get
free stuff. Being a citizen should be more like being a stockholder in
a corporation. If you are not willing to purchase any shares... well.. no vote.

[Dan Luke]

"Montblack" wrote:

> Mexicans are EVERYWHERE. MOST are illegal. The US immigration system
> has imploded on its bureaucratic self.

This is allowed because business wants cheap immigrant labor and
business owns the politicians of both parties. Do not expect anything
meaningful to be done about it. (BTW, ironically, Mexico has its own
problems with illegal Central American immigrants).

> This country has built up an infrastructure over 150 years. Millions
> of Mexicans have invaded the US to get a piece of that infrastructure.
> Booty isn't always hauled away by an invading army.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I happen to believe we
(American taxpayers) are getting value for our money because the cheap
labor keeps prices down for food, construction, domestic maintenance,
food service, hospitality, etc. Nevertheless, out-of-control illegal
immigration is a bad thing, IMO, because of the overloads it places on
the infrastructure you mention and the impact it has on American society
and culture in general.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[leslie]

kontiki ) wrote:
:
: Exactly... and most Americans are too cheap to pay what it would REALLY
: cost to buy food, a home or most other things (except automobiles) if real
: actual citizens did the work and got paid a fair wage for the work.
:

U.S. school teachers are now targets of the Cheap Labor Lobby:

http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/050826_vfl.htm
VDARE.com: 08/26/05 - View From Lodi, CA:
Look Out Teachers; The H-1B Visa Gang Wants Your Job

``...Rob Sanchez, who tracks non-immigrant visa issues and is the
Webmaster for the invaluable www.zazona.com, says school districts
fail to look at unemployed local professionals. Many laid off software
engineers, for example, have gone back to school to get education degrees.

Wrote Sanchez in his August 3rd newsletter:

"School districts all over the United States are actively recruiting
foreign teachers for our schools. In this case, Filipino math and
science teachers on H-1B visas have just arrived in Nevada.

I have talked to many engineers and programmers that have been unable
to get teaching jobs in math and science, despite the fact that they
went back to school to get education degrees. Despite the growing
number of desperate unemployed high-tech workers states like Nevada
still claim there is a shortage of these types of teachers. This is
just another cruel insult to the growing number of highly educated
professionals that can't find meaningful work."

[snip]

If you wonder why the attraction to H-1Bs is so strong, read
the 2004 National Education Association report Trends in Foreign Teacher
Recruitment.

From the NEA report:

"...Some foreign teachers receive lower pay than comparable teachers
in their schools."

And:

"...Some school districts pay their nonimmigrant employees as new
teachers, regardless of their experience and qualifications."...''



--Jerry Leslie
Note: is invalid for email

[Jose]

> If you honestly
> add up all of the costs (to every single working citizen) of providing all
> the social services to this sea of illegal, like health care and educating
> their children you would be shocked. This cost is not honestly being considered
> as tacked on to just living in the united states.

This is true of social services to citizens too.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[kontiki]

Jose wrote:
>
> This is true of social services to citizens too.

We are in total agreement. Take away all the freebies and watch
supposedly non-productive people start taking more responsibility
for their own lives. Likewise, see a reduction in illegals efforts
to come here for freebies.

When you get something for nothing you seldome appreciate its value.
This is a lesson governemnt never learns.

[Aluckyguess]

"leslie" > wrote in message
.. .
> kontiki ) wrote:
> :
> : Exactly... and most Americans are too cheap to pay what it would REALLY
> : cost to buy food, a home or most other things (except automobiles) if
> real
> : actual citizens did the work and got paid a fair wage for the work.
> :
>
> U.S. school teachers are now targets of the Cheap Labor Lobby:

I know here in California we need to get rid of the pensions the teachers
fireman and such are getting. They should save like the rest of us, or even
have a simple 401k. People are living to long they retire @52 collect 75% of
thier pay for 30 years or more. There is no way we can keep asking the
normal taxpayer to keep paying more taxes.
>
> http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/050826_vfl.htm
> VDARE.com: 08/26/05 - View From Lodi, CA:
> Look Out Teachers; The H-1B Visa Gang Wants Your Job
>
> ``...Rob Sanchez, who tracks non-immigrant visa issues and is the
> Webmaster for the invaluable www.zazona.com, says school districts
> fail to look at unemployed local professionals. Many laid off software
> engineers, for example, have gone back to school to get education
> degrees.
>
> Wrote Sanchez in his August 3rd newsletter:
>
> "School districts all over the United States are actively recruiting
> foreign teachers for our schools. In this case, Filipino math and
> science teachers on H-1B visas have just arrived in Nevada.
>
> I have talked to many engineers and programmers that have been unable
> to get teaching jobs in math and science, despite the fact that they
> went back to school to get education degrees. Despite the growing
> number of desperate unemployed high-tech workers states like Nevada
> still claim there is a shortage of these types of teachers. This is
> just another cruel insult to the growing number of highly educated
> professionals that can't find meaningful work."
>
> [snip]
>
> If you wonder why the attraction to H-1Bs is so strong, read
> the 2004 National Education Association report Trends in Foreign Teacher
> Recruitment.
>
> From the NEA report:
>
> "...Some foreign teachers receive lower pay than comparable teachers
> in their schools."
>
> And:
>
> "...Some school districts pay their nonimmigrant employees as new
> teachers, regardless of their experience and qualifications."...''
>
>
>
> --Jerry Leslie
> Note: is invalid for email

[Jose]

>> This is true of social services to citizens too.
>
> We are in total agreement. Take away all the freebies and watch
> supposedly non-productive people start...

We're not in total agreement. We both agree that social services are an
unaccounted cost in many analyses, and it can be very deceptive when
they are omitted.

However, they also have unaccounted benefits, which accrue not only to
direct recipients, but also indirectly to others. Social services are
not bad in and of themselves. SOME social services are overall harmful,
SOME social services could be overall beneficial but are administrated
in a harmful manner, and SOME social services are in fact overall
harmful no matter how they are handled. We will probably agree on which
are which to some extent too, but it's not a slam dunk either way.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Frankie]

> ..and most Americans are too cheap to pay what it would REALLY cost
> to buy food, a home or most other things...

I think the warning of a large consumer price spike after the elimination of
illegal immigration is a bit overblown.

First, it's an attempt to discourage tougher illegal immigration laws.
Second, a market economy would adapt - probably very quickly. Immigrants
would still be available, it's just they would be required to have proper
documentation such as a guest worker permit. And any cost increases to
employers would promote increased efficiency in their operations. Also the
"crowding out" effect caused by immigrant workers would be reduced, bringing
other (unemployed?) Americans into these jobs.

Frankie

[Jay Honeck]

>> > Some large liberal municipalities have laws against local law
> enforcement
>> > providing information about illegal aliens to the Feds.
>>
>> What? Where?
>
> IIRC Denver and some other large western cities.

If true, that's insane.

Any kind of a source available for that info? Any laws on the books that
we can view?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[kontiki]

Frankie wrote:
> I think the warning of a large consumer price spike after the elimination of
> illegal immigration is a bit overblown.
>
> First, it's an attempt to discourage tougher illegal immigration laws.
> Second, a market economy would adapt - probably very quickly. Immigrants
> would still be available, it's just they would be required to have proper
> documentation such as a guest worker permit. And any cost increases to
> employers would promote increased efficiency in their operations. Also the
> "crowding out" effect caused by immigrant workers would be reduced, bringing
> other (unemployed?) Americans into these jobs.

Exactly. Well stated Sir.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Dan Luke" > wrote:

> That's an interesting way of looking at it. I happen to believe we
> (American taxpayers) are getting value for our money because the cheap
> labor keeps prices down for food, construction, domestic maintenance,
> food service, hospitality, etc.

unless, of course, you have a business that is competing with those that
hire illegal workers.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[George Patterson]

leslie wrote:
>
> ``...Rob Sanchez, who tracks non-immigrant visa issues and is the
> Webmaster for the invaluable www.zazona.com, says school districts
> fail to look at unemployed local professionals. Many laid off software
> engineers, for example, have gone back to school to get education degrees.
>
> "School districts all over the United States are actively recruiting
> foreign teachers for our schools. In this case, Filipino math and
> science teachers on H-1B visas have just arrived in Nevada.

Yeah. The teachers' union here in Jersey got certain certification restrictions
put in place to reduce competition from computer people. Basically, if you were
a computer science major, you can't get a teaching certificate. Math and "hard"
science majors get preferrential treatment (they're a bit scarce), but even an
art major can get a certificate. CS majors don't qualify as "science" and don't
have the credits in education or the arts to qualify.

Foreigners with math degrees can walk right in, especially if they can also
teach Spanish. The State mandated Spanish classes for all students a few years
ago and is still a bit short of certified teachers.

There are a few ways around it. A friend of mine is teaching in the prison
system. It doesn't pay well, but she doesn't need the certificate she'd need to
teach high school (and her students are nicer). I've known other people who
worked as "substitute" teachers pretty much full time. Again, they're exempt
from the most restrictive regs, and, again, it doesn't pay much.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Flyingmonk]

The ones that use real SS# also claim dependents of up to fourteen so
they get less deducted at each payday. After a year, they come back
with different SS# and these slimey employers know this and don't care.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Jay Honeck]

> The ones that use real SS# also claim dependents of up to fourteen so
> they get less deducted at each payday. After a year, they come back
> with different SS# and these slimey employers know this and don't care.

Why would they need to come back with a new SS #?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Flyingmonk]

They claim it(multiple dependents) on their W-4, but they don't file
tax return. Their weekly checks don't get taxed as much as if they
claimed 0 dependent. By not using the same SS#, they actually
disappear, (on paper). They come back as someone else or they piggy
back on some innocent person's SS#. That person will have to pay up in
the form of being evaluate as a person earning more than they really
earned.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[john smith]

Flyingmonk wrote:
> They claim it(multiple dependents) on their W-4, but they don't file
> tax return. Their weekly checks don't get taxed as much as if they
> claimed 0 dependent. By not using the same SS#, they actually
> disappear, (on paper). They come back as someone else or they piggy
> back on some innocent person's SS#. That person will have to pay up in
> the form of being evaluate as a person earning more than they really
> earned.

Don't the extra "earnings" flag the IRS as under reported income when
the "owner" of the SSN files their 1040?

[Terry Spragg]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Perhaps we should arm the copter with machine guns and fire back?
>
>
> No, that would be barbaric.
>
> However, I am continually amazed at the vociferous opposition to actually
> controlling our borders. For some reason the ACLU and a host of other
> do-gooder organizations find it anathema for America to actually restrict
> immigration to legal immigrants only -- a fact that baffles me.
>
> We are friends with a family from Columbia. They came to America the hard
> way -- legally -- and have struggled over the last decade with obtaining
> green cards for their family members, and with becoming American citizens.
> It has been a tough row to hoe, and they are rightfully proud of their
> efforts and status.
>
> They are also the most vocally anti-Mexican group of people I have EVER
> known. Their attitude toward illegal immigrants borders on Fascist -- they
> simply despise them for cheating and taking the easy way -- at what they see
> as their expense -- and I am sure they would advocate following this
> poster's (I hope) tongue-in-cheek suggestion to arm the border patrol
> helicopters with machine guns.
>
> But what is so wrong with stopping illegal immigration? Why is it okay to
> fly helicopters up and down the Rio Grande 24/7 -- at huge expense -- but
> building a fence is seen as some sort of "Berlin Wall"-type of deal?


In the interst of balance...

History being what it is, how can Americans justify keeping
"illegals" out? Every single one of the old immigrants was treading
on Indian toes, killing them, drugging them, using starvation and
biological warfare against them to steal their land, only to turn
around and claim squatter's rights?

It's hypocrisy.

All Americans are already illegals, or the children of illegals, or
of those who have written laws to legalise their occupation of
Indian lands themselves. If it wasn't so disgusting, it would be
almost as funny as the guy who got a hard time entering at
Australian customs when asked if he had a criminal record, when he
replied "Is that still a requirement?"

What's that on the statue of liberty? "Send me your poor, your
downtrodden,..." Yes, them French got a funny sense of humour, all
right.

Some people got no sense at all.

Of course, no one should expect anything better from those who sign
international trade agreements and then ignore them, or who invade
foreign countries on any manufactured excuse at all, as governmental
policy dictated by commercial lobbies. I expect that right thinking
Americans would protest this chicanery in their governmental affairs.

Share the wealth or have it stolen. We are all in this together.

Tolerating illegals, even employing them because it lowers the wage
expectations of legal Mexican workers? Disgusting!

The only option left to the oppressed is surrender, infiltration and
sabotage. It's called homing chickens, or something, isn't it?

What was he doing, flying so low and close to desperate, hostiles,
economic refugees? Where the vigilantees so lazy they didn't want to
run the extra few feet to beat up some wetbacks? Is he so totally
unused to thinking that basic common sense is alien to him?

A starving man has a right to steal food from the fat. If he has
starving children, it becomes his duty, if there are no other options.

How about you? Think much? Ever heard of the golden rule?

Strange, how it all reminds me of a line from "The Worst of the
Jefferson Airplane" : "Let's not register him."

Must all Americans now wear numbers?

JWB is hundreds of years behind the Scriptures, as are some others,
it seems. What will it mean to you when your world is ending?

It is not illegal to be poor.

There is no need for a government to control every aspect of life.

Excessive taxes are wasted on war chasing the wrong fuel?

Why did the levee break? How many companies are now relieved of
their lagoon contents? Who gained from this?

Why are people in New Orleans not all driving hydrogen dirigibles
fuelled with cheap solar cell derived hydrogen? Why do their
concrete basements not float?

Could it be lack of foresight?

When will the next "hundred year storm" strike?

Could a manufacturing industry based on petroleum make do with
hydrogen from solar cell shingles in lieu of some feedstocks?

Should plastic stuff be repairable?

Are you aware it is possible to recycle sewage, electrolyzing the
water to make hydrogen from sunshine, and that dry killed dung is
good fertilizer, odourless, especially for animal feedstocks,
ethelene corn, commonly called cow corn, is used to make another
fuel, corn oil.

Some areas of New Orleans should be cropland. It is sad, I know, and
I am sorry to speak so soon, but plans must go forward.

Some vehicles should be really fuel efficient, cheap, and not taxed
like personal transport guzzler tanks. I personally would like a
backwards tricycle "bike" with two lawn chairs, rain canvas, and a
single rear mounted battery powered "Wheel motor / regenerative
brake", like on the Eliica car. These motors are easy to make,
efficient, and are made and used by the "End of the road" people,
somewhere, from old brake disks and glued on magnets to make
windmills. The automotive motor adapter, electronic controllers,
are really simple, actually. Many "boomer" car stereos use more
power transistors and magnets.

What new industries?

Terry K -SofDevCo- Communications is our most valuable resource.

I am sorry to jump on this bandwagon so quick, but some things have
got to be done soon, and plans must look forward.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Terry Spragg wrote:

> In the interst of balance...
>
> History being what it is, how can Americans justify keeping
> "illegals" out? Every single one of the old immigrants was treading
> on Indian toes, killing them, drugging them, using starvation and
> biological warfare against them to steal their land, only to turn
> around and claim squatter's rights?

Kennewick Man was here before them...
http://www.friendsofpast.org

[Frankie]

> History being what it is, how can Americans justify keeping
> "illegals" out? Every single one of the old immigrants was treading
> on Indian toes, killing them, drugging them, using starvation and
> biological warfare against them to steal their land, only to turn
> around and claim squatter's rights?

I seriously doubt those who say this, really believe it.

You're condeming Americans as bad people who have no right to a civilized
society, while justifying anarchy.

Your comparison disregards historical context and completely ignores
America's (legal) immigrant past. Colonization and our westward expansion
are history now, and since then we've established the most successful
country in the world.

If you really feel this way, human history must look pretty bleak to you -
and it must very difficult to get up every morning.

> What's that on the statue of liberty? "Send me your poor, your
> downtrodden,..." Yes, them French got a funny sense of humour, all
> right.

It's a monument to legal immigration - not chaos. The joke's on you.

Frankie

[Dave Stadt]

>
> In the interst of balance...
>
> History being what it is, how can Americans justify keeping
> "illegals" out? Every single one of the old immigrants was treading
> on Indian toes, killing them, drugging them, using starvation and
> biological warfare against them to steal their land, only to turn
> around and claim squatter's rights?
>
> It's hypocrisy.

Psssst Terry....you need to study history a little better. There is strong
evidence the Indians killed off earlier civilizations using the very
techniques you mentioned. They also had no qualms about killing each other
in what ever horrible method they could think up.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-08-31, Frankie > wrote:
> If you really feel this way, human history must look pretty bleak to you -
> and it must very difficult to get up every morning.

Much of human history IS pretty bleak. As a species, we generally are
extremely unpleasant to each other for often the most flimsy of
justifications (which really boil down to greed at the end of the day)

However, having a bleak history doesn't mean it's difficult to get up in
the morning. It is still possible to make a better future!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Flyingmonk]

Yes, that's why they use each ss# for one year only, and it will
probably take the IRS years to find each fraudulent filing. Plus, the
IRS does not audit every single filing/claim.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone