Need a help in helicopter crash accident (top urgent)

[[email protected]]

Hi,

THIS IS TOP URGENT!..

I have a movie with a helicopter accident. The helicopter crew claims
that the
reason of the accident was a damage on the tail rotor blade. My brother
was a
copilot in crew of that helicopter and I don't have any reasons to
don't believe him and his colleagues. But investigators claim that it
was basically overloading and helicopter was crashed by this reason.

There were some eye-witnesses that saw when helicopter was in hovering
one piece of the tail rotor blade was broke away. After that the crew
worked only for saving lives of passengers and saving machine. But
after questioning by investigators eye-witnesses ceased to remember
this important detail.

Would you help me and the crew of that helicopter?

The tail rotor has 8 rounds per second and the movie has 30 frames per
second.
The blades of tail rotor are invisible on the movie.

1. Is it possible to see blades enough to make a decision on the exact
reason of damage like on this http://www.helis.com/movies/bige005.mpg
2. Is there any other technique which can be helpful to solve this
problem using exist movie.

Sincerely,
Rustam Bogubaev

[[email protected]]

you can find mentioned movie on
http://www.bookinturkey.com/rustam/mi8mtv-ex902.wmv .

P.S. : This movie was downloaded from yahoo news web site and couldn't
be used for commercial purposes.

best regards,
rustam bogubaev

[Jim]

Duh! This video kind of makes the tail rotor question pointless. It is
so obvious the the impact of the tail rotor with the ice caused the
damage to the tail rotor. So I guess the tail rotor was "broke away"
which then contributed to the crash. Looks like what actually happened
may be the helicopter left the sanctity of ground effect prior to
gaining ETL



> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi,
>
> THIS IS TOP URGENT!..
>
> I have a movie with a helicopter accident. The helicopter crew claims
> that the
> reason of the accident was a damage on the tail rotor blade. My
> brother
> was a
> copilot in crew of that helicopter and I don't have any reasons to
> don't believe him and his colleagues. But investigators claim that it
> was basically overloading and helicopter was crashed by this reason.
>
> There were some eye-witnesses that saw when helicopter was in hovering
> one piece of the tail rotor blade was broke away. After that the crew
> worked only for saving lives of passengers and saving machine. But
> after questioning by investigators eye-witnesses ceased to remember
> this important detail.
>
> Would you help me and the crew of that helicopter?
>
> The tail rotor has 8 rounds per second and the movie has 30 frames per
> second.
> The blades of tail rotor are invisible on the movie.
>
> 1. Is it possible to see blades enough to make a decision on the exact
> reason of damage like on this http://www.helis.com/movies/bige005.mpg
> 2. Is there any other technique which can be helpful to solve this
> problem using exist movie.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rustam Bogubaev
>
>

[enewbold]

Duh! This video kind of makes the tail rotor question pointless. It is so obvious the the impact of the tail rotor with the ice caused the damage to the tail rotor. So I guess the tail rotor was "broke away" which then contributed to the crash. Looks like what actually happened may be the helicopter left the sanctity of ground effect prior to gaining ETL.

Absolutely correct. I've studied the video for a long time and came away with the exact same conclusion. They probably should have left another person or two on the ground before attempting that flight.

Ed in Columbus, OH

[George Schneider]

concur with Jim's explanation. the aircraft appears to still be
overloaded, and unable to take advantage of ETL at this altitude. as it
moved over the small valley, it lost the benefit of ground effect, sank,
and likely had a tail rotor strike.

guessing the altitude is somewhere between 1000 and 3000 meters, but
unsure of the temperature. humidity is likely low, but high and heavy
are the two key parameters in this equation, with hot and humid playing
lesser roles.

Jim wrote:
> Duh! This video kind of makes the tail rotor question pointless. It is
> so obvious the the impact of the tail rotor with the ice caused the
> damage to the tail rotor. So I guess the tail rotor was "broke away"
> which then contributed to the crash. Looks like what actually happened
> may be the helicopter left the sanctity of ground effect prior to
> gaining ETL

>
>>Hi,
>>
>>THIS IS TOP URGENT!..
>>
>>I have a movie with a helicopter accident. The helicopter crew claims
>>that the

[pbc76049]

Welcome to the world of lame excuses...
Sure the tail rotor failed when it hit the ground
so OBVIOUSLY it is the machines fault, had the tail rotor not failed
the aircraft would probably be in existance today. Nice Try.
The cause of the accident is the crew flying the
a/c into the ground and damaging the TR and writing off
the aircraft. The funny thing is that the A/C had the ability to hover IGE
and not be able to translate. This should become a training film
on how not to do things.

[Gary Emerson]

Newbie here, what's ETL and IGE? Thanks...

Jim wrote:
> Duh! This video kind of makes the tail rotor question pointless. It is
> so obvious the the impact of the tail rotor with the ice caused the
> damage to the tail rotor. So I guess the tail rotor was "broke away"
> which then contributed to the crash. Looks like what actually happened
> may be the helicopter left the sanctity of ground effect prior to
> gaining ETL
>
>
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>THIS IS TOP URGENT!..
>>
>>I have a movie with a helicopter accident. The helicopter crew claims
>>that the
>>reason of the accident was a damage on the tail rotor blade. My
>>brother
>>was a
>>copilot in crew of that helicopter and I don't have any reasons to
>>don't believe him and his colleagues. But investigators claim that it
>>was basically overloading and helicopter was crashed by this reason.
>>
>>There were some eye-witnesses that saw when helicopter was in hovering
>>one piece of the tail rotor blade was broke away. After that the crew
>>worked only for saving lives of passengers and saving machine. But
>>after questioning by investigators eye-witnesses ceased to remember
>>this important detail.
>>
>>Would you help me and the crew of that helicopter?
>>
>>The tail rotor has 8 rounds per second and the movie has 30 frames per
>>second.
>>The blades of tail rotor are invisible on the movie.
>>
>>1. Is it possible to see blades enough to make a decision on the exact
>>reason of damage like on this http://www.helis.com/movies/bige005.mpg
>>2. Is there any other technique which can be helpful to solve this
>>problem using exist movie.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Rustam Bogubaev
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Steve R]

ETL = Effective Translational Lift - Basically it means that the helicopter
can fly in forward or translating flight (it doesn't have to be forward
persay but I hope you know what I mean) under conditions that it wouldn't be
able to hover.

IGE = In Ground Effect - which is, as I understand it (I'll be corrected if
I'm too far off on this) within 1 to 1.5 rotor diamters from the ground.
This is as apposed to OGE or "Out of Ground Effect." It takes more power to
hover out of ground effect than it does to hover in ground effect.

In the accident that's been discussed here, the helicopter was operating at
extreme altitudes, probably flying heavy, and tried to leave the security of
ground effect before reaching ETL. The result was that it couldn't maintain
altitude, settled to the ground and struck the tail rotor which promptly
disintegrated, then rolled the aircraft up into a ball and burned.

Hope this helps!
Steve R.


"Gary Emerson" > wrote in message
...
> Newbie here, what's ETL and IGE? Thanks...
>

[Steve R]

Ya beat me to it Kevin! ;-)

Great links though. I hadn't seen them before.

Thanks & Fly Safe,
Steve R.


"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message ...
> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 20:20:24 GMT, Gary Emerson
> > wrote:
>
>>Newbie here, what's ETL and IGE? Thanks...
>
> ETL - Effective Translational Lift. Basically, the rotor disc can
> generate more lift with any horizontal movement of air across the
> disc. This movement can be from wind or horizontal movement. It
> happens with *ANY* horizontal flow, but it's effects begin to be felt
> somewhere in the neighborhood of 16-24 kts. (Depending on the text
> you're reading at the time)
> http://www.copters.com/aero/translational.html
>
> IGE- In Ground Effect. When hovering within approximately 1/2 rotor
> disc diameter of the ground, the rotor wash "bounces" off the ground
> and the tip vortices come back down through the rotor disc,
> effectively increasing the angle of attack and therefor the amount of
> lift. Helo performance numbers will reference hover in and out of
> ground effect.. In ground effect you'll be able to hover at a higher
> altitude than out.
> http://www.copters.com/aero/ground_effect.html
>
> (Excellent site BTW. Easy to understand and lots of diagrams)

[[email protected]]

the aircraft was not overloaded. see below for that days flight
details:

helicopter : MI-8MTV
altitude : 3900m asl
air temperature : +5C
wind speed : 4m/s (upwing takeoff)
take-off mass :
* 16pax - 10444kg
* 11pax - 10069kg (after made 5 passengers get out/disembark)

so let me know how you decided that helicopter was overloaded.

- rustam

[[email protected]]

Dear The OTHER Kevin in San Diego,

> Doing some work earlier in the week in an R22 at
> close to max gross and very warm conditions, it took close to 50 yards
> to get enough forward speed to get into ETL and climb out.

Can you give me a link for that topic?

- rustam