Merry Christmas to Everyone [Archive]

Jon Kraus

December 26th 04, 01:10 AM

Did you know that only people in America celebrate Kwanza? Folks in
Africa never heard of it!! Go figure..

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner

BTIZ wrote:

> I hate those that are trying not to offend.. and say Happy Holidays...
>
> I answer back with a hearty.. MERRY CHRISTMAS... !!
>
> they offend me by cowering to others...
>
> And if I say Merry Christmas to someone.. and they answer back with Kwanza
> or Shalom.. I'll smile and shake their hand..
>
> BT
>
> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Meryy Christmas And God Bless You too!
>>
>>This group is so non PC, I love it.
>>
>>BTW, be careful about saying "Happy Holidays" anymore. There are now
>>reactionaries out there that think you are trying to secularize Christmas
>>if you say that.
>>
>>
>
>
>

Jay Honeck

December 26th 04, 02:29 AM

> God has already blessed us.. We get to fly!!

Amen, Brother!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Blanche

December 26th 04, 03:02 AM

G.R. Patterson III > wrote:
>
>Dude wrote:
>>
>> BTW, be careful about saying "Happy Holidays" anymore. There are now
>> reactionaries out there that think you are trying to secularize Christmas if
>> you say that.
>
>Screw 'em if they're so stupid they think the only holiday is Christmas. Don't
>know 'bout you, but *I'm* celebrating Saturnalia. :-)

What about the winter equinox earlier this week?

Jay Beckman

December 26th 04, 05:50 AM

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> God has already blessed us.. We get to fly!!
>
> Jon KRaus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner

Well put, Jon...

Jay B

C J Campbell

December 26th 04, 06:04 AM

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> God has already blessed us.. We get to fly!!
>

Truly. May He bless us some more.

C J Campbell

December 26th 04, 06:05 AM

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> Meryy Christmas And God Bless You too!
>
> This group is so non PC, I love it.
>
> BTW, be careful about saying "Happy Holidays" anymore. There are now
> reactionaries out there that think you are trying to secularize Christmas
if
> you say that.

Let people wish others well in their own way, and I will wish them well in
mine.

G.R. Patterson III

December 26th 04, 06:13 AM

Blanche wrote:
>
> What about the winter equinox earlier this week?

That's really what we all are celebrating, regardless of what we call it. As
nearly as anyone can tell, Christ was actually born sometime in August, and his
birth was originally celebrated then (though the early church didn't put much
emphasis on that holiday - Easter was the biggie). Christmas was moved to late
December in the third century. The Romans persecution was at its height, and the
church wanted the congregation to appear to be celebrating the Roman holidays
just like everyone else.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

Paul Folbrecht

December 26th 04, 06:22 AM

True, enough, George, and it's never been a secret - the Gospels make it
clear that the birth was during summer.

(For some silly reason, many anti-Christian bigots (not calling you one)
love to talk about this one, then get confused as to why it's not a
heavy blow to everyone's faith.)

But, no, actually, you're quite wrong, a great many of us really are
celebrating Christmas, even if the event didn't take place this time of
year.

> That's really what we all are celebrating, regardless of what we call it. As
> nearly as anyone can tell, Christ was actually born sometime in August, and his
> birth was originally celebrated then (though the early church didn't put much
> emphasis on that holiday - Easter was the biggie). Christmas was moved to late
> December in the third century. The Romans persecution was at its height, and the
> church wanted the congregation to appear to be celebrating the Roman holidays
> just like everyone else.
>
> George Patterson
> The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

Paul Folbrecht

December 26th 04, 06:24 AM

It was created by American liberals as another attempt to dissolve the
cultural significance of Christmas. Funny how I've met hundreds of
black Christians that celebrate Christmas and not one, ever, that thinks
much of Kwanza.

I have a feeling this is going to turn into a long thread.

Jon Kraus wrote:
> Did you know that only people in America celebrate Kwanza? Folks in
> Africa never heard of it!! Go figure..
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner

Brian Burger

December 26th 04, 06:29 AM

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004, Blanche wrote:

> G.R. Patterson III > wrote:
> >
> >Dude wrote:
> >>
> >> BTW, be careful about saying "Happy Holidays" anymore. There are now
> >> reactionaries out there that think you are trying to secularize Christmas if
> >> you say that.
> >
> >Screw 'em if they're so stupid they think the only holiday is Christmas. Don't
> >know 'bout you, but *I'm* celebrating Saturnalia. :-)
>
> What about the winter equinox earlier this week?

Any excuse for a celebration!

Merry Christmas, all. It's still the 25th here, but by the time most read
this it'll be Merry Belated...

Brian
www.warbard.ca/avgas/

Peter Duniho

December 26th 04, 06:31 AM

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Did you know that only people in America celebrate Kwanza? Folks in
> Africa never heard of it!! Go figure..

Why is that so odd? It was invented here. Wouldn't you expect the primary
celebrants to be here?

http://www.cnn.com/EVENTS/1996/kwanzaa/history.html

C J Campbell

December 26th 04, 07:13 AM

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Blanche wrote:
> >
> > What about the winter equinox earlier this week?
>
> That's really what we all are celebrating, regardless of what we call it.
As
> nearly as anyone can tell, Christ was actually born sometime in August,
and his
> birth was originally celebrated then (though the early church didn't put
much
> emphasis on that holiday - Easter was the biggie).

Actually, spring. That is when shepherds are in the fields with their
flocks.

Christmas was originally not celebrated at all and I have never seen a
reference that it was ever celebrated in August. The earliest references I
can find show it being celebrated in December starting about the 4th
century. There is no indication that anyone paid any attention to it at all
before that. Church leaders wanted to convert the pagan holiday to a
Christian one. By doing that, however, they basically gave up the right to
dictate how the holiday would be celebrated, so it is celebrated the same
way as was the pagan holiday. The only thing they changed was the name and
some of the symbolism. Even then, the celebration of Christmas nearly died
out several times and the modern observance of Christmas probably bears
little resemblance to Medieval practice, which was more like Mardi Gras than
anything else.

Puritans thought that celebrating Christmas in December was pagan and
obnoxious (which it was; it had degenerated into a drunken orgy -- well, it
was always a drunken orgy, but now it was even worse), so for many years it
was actually illegal in Massachusetts to observe Christmas. Oliver Cromwell
banned the celebration of Christmas in England in 1645 and no one celebrated
Christmas there until after the coronation of Charles II. After the War of
American Independence the celebration of Christmas almost ceased, as
Christmas was widely regarded as an English custom. We still do not
celebrate Boxing Day for that reason; the very idea of lords giving gifts to
their servants is un-American. Christmas as it is celebrated in America
today was invented almost entirely out of the imagination of Washington
Irving, who had never seen a Christmas celebration but who patched together
a vision of Christmas from fragments of medieval and English traditions.
What he didn't know he simply made up. Charles Dickens inspired a similar
revival of Christmas in England, again 'inventing' traditions that may never
have existed before that time and discarding many of the seamier ones.

Be that as it may, most Christians enjoy the celebration of Christmas and
they attach considerable religious significance to it. Since no one knows
when Jesus was born, December 25 is as good as any other day. After all,
most Christians know that the wise men probably did not arrive in Bethlehem
until at least a year later, but we cheerfully pose the wise men in nativity
scenes anyway. For that matter, no one even knows how many wise men there
were or who they were, though legends and songs about them are perennial
favorites.

For the Christian, then, Christmas is a pleasant fiction that enables them
to remember the birth of the Savior through favorite stories and symbols,
exchanging of gifts and gathering of families. No one really cares whether
it is historically accurate and in fact most of them never did care.
Christians believe in the reality of Jesus Christ and his birth, but care
little about the historical accuracy of the holiday in which they remember
it. Obviously, there is no record of Jesus or any of his immediate
associates ever having celebrated it.

I say, in the spirit of Irving and Dickens, who invented Christmas as we
know it, that we should observe the traditions of Christmas related to
flying, claiming (like Irving and Dickens) that they were observed anciently
whether they were or not. I am sure the QB would have some good ideas along
this line.

Jon Kraus

December 26th 04, 12:45 PM

Just seems odd to me that Kwanza is piped up to be this big African
celebration and "real" Africans have never heard of it. The Politically
Correct crowd in this country won't allow you to say Merry Christmas
without mentioning the phoney made-up "African" holiday that is Kwanza.
Just my .02. YMMV.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Did you know that only people in America celebrate Kwanza? Folks in
>>Africa never heard of it!! Go figure..
>
>
> Why is that so odd? It was invented here. Wouldn't you expect the primary
> celebrants to be here?
>
> http://www.cnn.com/EVENTS/1996/kwanzaa/history.html
>
>

Jay Honeck

December 26th 04, 02:25 PM

> What about the winter equinox earlier this week?

I'm convinced that Christmas (and the older celebrations of the equinox)
were invented so that we all wouldn't kill ourselves from depression during
the darkest, coldest month of the year. It's not so bad now, with
incandescent lighting and central heating -- but can you imagine what it
must've been like 500 years ago?

The modern shopping frenzy does a marvelous job of diverting everyone's
attention from the bleak and dreary weather!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

alexy

December 26th 04, 04:22 PM

Blanche > wrote:

>What about the winter equinox earlier this week?
>
Now THAT would be worth celebrating! <g> (Lots warmer than we get with
the usual winter solstice!)
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

C J Campbell

December 26th 04, 05:20 PM

"alexy" > wrote in message
...
> Blanche > wrote:
>
>
>
> >What about the winter equinox earlier this week?
> >
> Now THAT would be worth celebrating! <g> (Lots warmer than we get with
> the usual winter solstice!)

George and Blanche need new calendars. :-)

[email protected]

December 26th 04, 06:22 PM

Merry Christmas CJ! and to the rest of the Gang too!
Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

Peter Duniho

December 26th 04, 08:04 PM

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Just seems odd to me that Kwanza is piped up to be this big African
> celebration

By whom? I never heard anyone call it an "African celebration".

> and "real" Africans have never heard of it.

It's not an African tradition. It's an African-American construct,
celebrated by a minority of African-Americans, and a few other people.
There's no reason to expect Africans to have heard of it, nor is it telling
or unusual in any way that Africans have not.

The holiday does borrow a lot from African culture, but that doesn't make it
African.

> The Politically Correct crowd in this country won't allow you to say Merry
> Christmas without mentioning the phoney made-up "African" holiday that is
> Kwanza.

Ahh, I see. You're just trying to co-opt Kwanza in your goal to write an
anti-PC tirade.

Still, I don't see why you have to be so hostile toward Kwanza. It's no
more "phoney" or "made-up" than any other holiday we celebrate. It's just a
lot newer. It's never been advertised as an "African" holiday. It's
African-American, which is an entire culture unto itself. You should at
least broaden your horizons enough to understand the difference between
"African-American" and "African". They aren't the same thing.

Pete

tony roberts

December 26th 04, 08:52 PM

You have to be pretty anal to get upset about anyones expression of
religion.

Here is Kelowna we had complaints from a group of athiests this year
about the nativity scene downtown.

What I didn't understand is that if they are athiests they would surely
see the nativity scene as just a bunch of dolls - so what's to be
offended about?

I was raised in a Protestant/Catholic family in Britain and have lived
in many countries with different religions including Buddhist, Jewish,
Hindu, Jain, Sikh and Moslem. Frankly I couldn't care less who or what
anyone worships - it certainly doesn't offend me.

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

In article >,
"C J Campbell" > wrote:

> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Meryy Christmas And God Bless You too!
> >
> > This group is so non PC, I love it.
> >
> > BTW, be careful about saying "Happy Holidays" anymore. There are now
> > reactionaries out there that think you are trying to secularize Christmas
> if
> > you say that.
>
> Let people wish others well in their own way, and I will wish them well in
> mine.

RobertR237

December 26th 04, 10:46 PM

>Blanche wrote:
>>
>> What about the winter equinox earlier this week?
>
>That's really what we all are celebrating, regardless of what we call it. As
>nearly as anyone can tell, Christ was actually born sometime in August, and
>his
>birth was originally celebrated then (though the early church didn't put much
>emphasis on that holiday - Easter was the biggie). Christmas was moved to
>late
>December in the third century. The Romans persecution was at its height, and
>the
>church wanted the congregation to appear to be celebrating the Roman holidays
>just like everyone else.
>
>George Patterson
> The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.
>

The why it is celebrated in December is not important, and "WE ALL" are not
celebrating the winter equinox. Speak only for yourself.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

C J Campbell

December 27th 04, 12:32 AM

"RobertR237" > wrote in message
...
> >
>
> The why it is celebrated in December is not important, and "WE ALL" are
not
> celebrating the winter equinox. Speak only for yourself.
>
> MERRY CHRISTMAS

Exactly. If I want to celebrate the birth of Christ, it matters little to me
what other people are celebrating, though I might appreciate an invitation.
:-)

Matt Whiting

December 27th 04, 02:14 AM

tony roberts wrote:

> You have to be pretty anal to get upset about anyones expression of
> religion.
>
> Here is Kelowna we had complaints from a group of athiests this year
> about the nativity scene downtown.
>
> What I didn't understand is that if they are athiests they would surely
> see the nativity scene as just a bunch of dolls - so what's to be
> offended about?
>
> I was raised in a Protestant/Catholic family in Britain and have lived
> in many countries with different religions including Buddhist, Jewish,
> Hindu, Jain, Sikh and Moslem. Frankly I couldn't care less who or what
> anyone worships - it certainly doesn't offend me.

I agree. I don't think the issue with atheists is being offended by a
religious expression, they are just jealous because others are happy and
they are miserable. :-)

Matt

C J Campbell

December 27th 04, 03:36 AM

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> The Politically
> Correct crowd in this country won't allow you to say Merry Christmas
> without mentioning the phoney made-up "African" holiday that is Kwanza.

<heavy sigh> Near as I can tell, I wished people a Merry Christmas. None of
the supposedly PC liberals mentioned Kwanza. You did.

Ron Wanttaja

December 27th 04, 04:44 AM

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:04:21 GMT, wrote:

>However, when all the Airedale worshippers on the town council decide
>to put a replica of the Holy Airedale on the town green, they've
>crossed the line, as far as I'm concerned. I have a feeling a good
>number of christians would feel the same, and insist the Holy Airedale
>be removed.

Can they use the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch to do so? :-)

Ron "And the number shall be three...." Wanttaja

C J Campbell

December 27th 04, 07:32 AM

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:04:21 GMT, wrote:
>
> >However, when all the Airedale worshippers on the town council decide
> >to put a replica of the Holy Airedale on the town green, they've
> >crossed the line, as far as I'm concerned. I have a feeling a good
> >number of christians would feel the same, and insist the Holy Airedale
> >be removed.
>
> Can they use the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch to do so? :-)
>
> Ron "And the number shall be three...." Wanttaja

I wonder what the rest of the Book of Armaments says?

C J Campbell

December 27th 04, 07:35 AM

> wrote in message
...
>
> However, when all the Airedale worshippers on the town council decide
> to put a replica of the Holy Airedale on the town green, they've
> crossed the line, as far as I'm concerned. I have a feeling a good
> number of christians would feel the same, and insist the Holy Airedale
> be removed.

Ah yes. The old "I am intolerant because I think they might be as intolerant
as I am" argument.

Jon Kraus

December 27th 04, 12:57 PM

I wouldn't call it a "tirade" at all, you did. I said that it was my
..02 and it was. As usual with things on the left, the Political
coorectness in this country has gone way over the edge.

My horizons are broad. I don't believe in the "African-American"
bull****. 99% of black folks have never set foot in Africa and have long
been remove from relatives that are from Africa. Sorry to bust your
bubble but they are just plain old Americans just like me. Again just my
..02.

Merry Chrismas

Jon Kraus (an American not a German-American)
PP-ASEL
Student Mooney Owner

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Just seems odd to me that Kwanza is piped up to be this big African
>>celebration
>
>
> By whom? I never heard anyone call it an "African celebration".
>
>
>>and "real" Africans have never heard of it.
>
>
> It's not an African tradition. It's an African-American construct,
> celebrated by a minority of African-Americans, and a few other people.
> There's no reason to expect Africans to have heard of it, nor is it telling
> or unusual in any way that Africans have not.
>
> The holiday does borrow a lot from African culture, but that doesn't make it
> African.
>
>
>>The Politically Correct crowd in this country won't allow you to say Merry
>>Christmas without mentioning the phoney made-up "African" holiday that is
>>Kwanza.
>
>
> Ahh, I see. You're just trying to co-opt Kwanza in your goal to write an
> anti-PC tirade.
>
> Still, I don't see why you have to be so hostile toward Kwanza. It's no
> more "phoney" or "made-up" than any other holiday we celebrate. It's just a
> lot newer. It's never been advertised as an "African" holiday. It's
> African-American, which is an entire culture unto itself. You should at
> least broaden your horizons enough to understand the difference between
> "African-American" and "African". They aren't the same thing.
>
> Pete
>
>

Jon Kraus

December 27th 04, 12:58 PM

I wouldn't call it a "tirade" at all, you did. I said that it was my
..02 and it was. As usual with things on the left, the Political
Coorectness in this country has gone way over the edge.

My horizons are broad. I don't believe in the "African-American"
bull****. 99% of black folks have never set foot in Africa and have long
been remove from relatives that are from Africa. Sorry to bust your
bubble but they are just plain old Americans just like me. Again just my
..02.

Merry Chrismas

Jon Kraus (an American not a German-American)
PP-ASEL
Student Mooney Owner

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Just seems odd to me that Kwanza is piped up to be this big African
>>celebration
>
>
> By whom? I never heard anyone call it an "African celebration".
>
>
>>and "real" Africans have never heard of it.
>
>
> It's not an African tradition. It's an African-American construct,
> celebrated by a minority of African-Americans, and a few other people.
> There's no reason to expect Africans to have heard of it, nor is it telling
> or unusual in any way that Africans have not.
>
> The holiday does borrow a lot from African culture, but that doesn't make it
> African.
>
>
>>The Politically Correct crowd in this country won't allow you to say Merry
>>Christmas without mentioning the phoney made-up "African" holiday that is
>>Kwanza.
>
>
> Ahh, I see. You're just trying to co-opt Kwanza in your goal to write an
> anti-PC tirade.
>
> Still, I don't see why you have to be so hostile toward Kwanza. It's no
> more "phoney" or "made-up" than any other holiday we celebrate. It's just a
> lot newer. It's never been advertised as an "African" holiday. It's
> African-American, which is an entire culture unto itself. You should at
> least broaden your horizons enough to understand the difference between
> "African-American" and "African". They aren't the same thing.
>
> Pete
>
>

[email protected]

December 27th 04, 01:12 PM

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 21:14:45 -0500, Matt Whiting
> wrote:

>I agree. I don't think the issue with atheists is being offended by a
>religious expression, they are just jealous because others are happy and
>they are miserable. :-)
>
>
>Matt

And this expression of christian good will reprresents a feeling
of...????

Gary Drescher

December 27th 04, 06:00 PM

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
>I wouldn't call it a "tirade" at all, you did.

Uh, Jon, no one characterizes their own words as a tirade. But Pete's
characterization is accurate. You disparaged Kwanza as "made-up" (as though
any holiday could be other than made-up) and "phony" (because it's not a
native African celebration--even though its celebrants never claimed it
was!).

> I don't believe in the "African-American"
> bull****. 99% of black folks have never set foot in Africa and have long
> been remove from relatives that are from Africa.

The term "African American" refers to black Americans of African ancestry.
It does not mean "people who have visited Africa, or who speak to their
relatives in Africa", contrary to your peculiar objection.

As with the holiday Kwanza, you take the term "African American" and
misrepresent its meaning in order to make it seem illegitimate. What
motivates you to do so?

> Jon Kraus (an American not a German-American)

For many Xs, there are some Americans who prefer to call themselves X
Americans, some who prefer to call themselves Americans, and some who prefer
neither. Why is that difference so hard for you to understand or respect?
Why is it "bull****" for someone's preference to differ from yours in that
regard? Why do you feel the need to insult people for making a different
choice than you as to whether to put their ancestry on a par with their
nationality in their self-description?

--Gary

john smith

December 27th 04, 06:04 PM

You have to be a Druid.

Blanche wrote:
> What about the winter equinox earlier this week?

Dan Luke

December 27th 04, 06:48 PM

"Matt Whiting" wrote:
> I don't think the issue with atheists is being offended by a
> religious expression, they are just jealous because others are happy and
> they are miserable. :-)

It is precisely this kind of ignorant smugness that many non-Christians find
so offensive.

As a Jewish friend of mine put it, "I don't care if people want to celebrate
the birth of a blasphemer, but I do care if they try to ram his birthday down
my throat every year and expect me to be of good cheer."
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

Bob Noel

December 27th 04, 07:08 PM

In article >, "Dan Luke" >
wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
> > I don't think the issue with atheists is being offended by a
> > religious expression, they are just jealous because others are happy and
> > they are miserable. :-)
>
> It is precisely this kind of ignorant smugness that many non-Christians find
> so offensive.
>
> As a Jewish friend of mine put it, "I don't care if people want to celebrate
> the birth of a blasphemer, but I do care if they try to ram his birthday down
> my throat every year and expect me to be of good cheer."

and this would be different from the smugness from "the Chosen"?

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

tony roberts

December 27th 04, 07:11 PM

> However, when all the Airedale worshippers on the town council decide
> to put a replica of the Holy Airedale on the town green, they've
> crossed the line, as far as I'm concerned. I have a feeling a good
> number of christians would feel the same, and insist the Holy Airedale
> be removed.

Why would I be bothered about a statue of a dog?
We have statues of horses, elephants, bulls, eagles aned a whole host of
other creatures on display in many of the worlds cities.

In November, in London, Princess Anne unveiled a statue of 2 mules, a
horse and a dog. To her, they represent the animals of war.
To some, they may well have some religious significance - so what?

For myself, I suspect that the artist may well be one of the greatest
political commentators of the year.

Tony

[email protected]

December 27th 04, 07:18 PM

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:11:45 GMT, tony roberts >
wrote:

>Why would I be bothered about a statue of a dog?
>We have statues of horses, elephants, bulls, eagles aned a whole host of
>other creatures on display in many of the worlds cities.
>

Well, you probably wouldn't be, until the time the government, when at
last composed solely of Airedale worshippers, insisted that you
observe the "true" religion, and forced you to get on your knees
whenever the Holy Airedale went by.

Dan Luke

December 27th 04, 07:26 PM

"Bob Noel" wrote:
> and this would be different from the smugness from "the Chosen"?

Religious smugness is offensive wherever one finds it -- particularly in
government.

[email protected]

December 27th 04, 07:26 PM

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:08:06 -0500, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>In article >, "Dan Luke" >
>wrote:
>
>> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
>> > I don't think the issue with atheists is being offended by a
>> > religious expression, they are just jealous because others are happy and
>> > they are miserable. :-)
>>
>> It is precisely this kind of ignorant smugness that many non-Christians find
>> so offensive.
>>
>> As a Jewish friend of mine put it, "I don't care if people want to celebrate
>> the birth of a blasphemer, but I do care if they try to ram his birthday down
>> my throat every year and expect me to be of good cheer."
>
>and this would be different from the smugness from "the Chosen"?

Very little differences exist between any of the religions when it
comes to smugly assuming theirs is the only way to achieve "true
happiness", as the poster did.

Let them enjoy their smugness, I say.

It is when they expect me to join in by providing my taxpayer-funded
parks and buildings to help them in their attempts to proseletyze the
world (and therby affirm their assumed right to be smug) that I
object.

Churches, synagogues and mosques are great places for exhibiting
religious smugness of whatever variety.

Parks are for feeding pigeons without religious intrusion.

Gary Drescher

December 27th 04, 07:38 PM

> wrote in message
...
> Parks are for feeding pigeons without religious intrusion.

Well, without religious intrusion *by the government* (which is what I think
you meant to say). Its fine for evangelists to come to public areas to try
to persuade others of their views. (Personally, I enjoy trying to convert
them to atheism in response.) It would even be fine for *private* groups to
construct nativity scenes (or whatever) on public land, *provided* that the
land is made available for *any* group to construct advertisements for *any*
opinion, however unpopular or offensive. What's objectionable is when the
government takes sides about religion by granting special privileges for
particular religious expressions on public land.

--Gary

Morgans

December 27th 04, 07:56 PM

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message

>
> As a Jewish friend of mine put it, "I don't care if people want to
celebrate
> the birth of a blasphemer, but I do care if they try to ram his birthday
down
> my throat every year and expect me to be of good cheer."
> --
> Dan
> C-172RG at BFM

It sounds like you friend has issues.

Living in any society as a minority, will have times that are difficult. I
doubt you friend has had much "Ramming of the throat" compared to many
countries governments might do.

Your friend is still free to worship as he pleases, and also free to turn
the other way, and not participate. Not too bad a deal, from where I sit.
--
Jim in NC
>
>

Dan Luke

December 27th 04, 08:36 PM

"Morgans" wrote:

> It sounds like you friend has issues.

Indeed, she does.

> Living in any society as a minority, will have times that are difficult.

Living *free* in this society as a minority is precisely what is great about
America. Ever heard the phrase "tyranny of the majority?"

> I doubt you friend has had much "Ramming of the throat" compared to many
> countries governments might do.

We are not talking about other countries where the ramming is more brutal,
but about the U. S., where it is more subtle but nonetheless real.

> Your friend is still free to worship as he pleases, and also free to turn
> the other way, and not participate.

My friend is not free to "not participate" if *her government* sponsors or
otherwise fosters religious observances contrary to her beliefs.

> Not too bad a deal, from where I sit.

Freedom of religion is indeed a very good deal. For that reason it is worthy
of vigorous defense against those who would enlist government in
proselytizing their particular creeds. The idea is to keep our home-grown
Ayatollahs from achieving the power that those in other countries have
managed to get. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance," remember?
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

Matt Whiting

December 27th 04, 09:27 PM

Dan Luke wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
>
>>I don't think the issue with atheists is being offended by a
>>religious expression, they are just jealous because others are happy and
>>they are miserable. :-)
>
>
> It is precisely this kind of ignorant smugness that many non-Christians find
> so offensive.
>
> As a Jewish friend of mine put it, "I don't care if people want to celebrate
> the birth of a blasphemer, but I do care if they try to ram his birthday down
> my throat every year and expect me to be of good cheer."

I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand humor, even with the smiley
to making it glaringly obvious.

Matt

Peter Duniho

December 27th 04, 09:51 PM

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> [more stuff snipped]

What Gary said.

[email protected]

December 27th 04, 09:55 PM

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:27:21 -0500, Matt Whiting
> wrote:

>Dan Luke wrote:
>
>> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
>>
>>>I don't think the issue with atheists is being offended by a
>>>religious expression, they are just jealous because others are happy and
>>>they are miserable. :-)
>>
>>
>> It is precisely this kind of ignorant smugness that many non-Christians find
>> so offensive.
>>
>> As a Jewish friend of mine put it, "I don't care if people want to celebrate
>> the birth of a blasphemer, but I do care if they try to ram his birthday down
>> my throat every year and expect me to be of good cheer."
>
>I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand humor, even with the smiley
>to making it glaringly obvious.
>
>
>Matt

When you find that you have to tell someone "this is funny", it
probably isn't.

Mark Hickey

December 27th 04, 09:55 PM

Matt Whiting > wrote:

>Dan Luke wrote:
>
>> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
>>
>>>I don't think the issue with atheists is being offended by a
>>>religious expression, they are just jealous because others are happy and
>>>they are miserable. :-)
>>
>> It is precisely this kind of ignorant smugness that many non-Christians find
>> so offensive.
>>
>> As a Jewish friend of mine put it, "I don't care if people want to celebrate
>> the birth of a blasphemer, but I do care if they try to ram his birthday down
>> my throat every year and expect me to be of good cheer."
>
>I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand humor, even with the smiley
>to making it glaringly obvious.

I guess he was just trying to reinforce the point you made... ;-)

Mark (ducking and running) Hickey

Dan Luke

December 27th 04, 10:22 PM

"Matt Whiting" wrote:
> I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand humor, even with the smiley
> to making it glaringly obvious.

I saw the smiley. It seemed to me feeble attempt to sugar coat the arrogance
of your position. Are you now saying you *don't* believe atheists are
naturally jealous and miserable because they don't believe your book?

BTW, is it "Christian" to call people stupid?
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

Matt Whiting

December 27th 04, 10:38 PM

Mark Hickey wrote:
> Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
>
>>Dan Luke wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Matt Whiting" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I don't think the issue with atheists is being offended by a
>>>>religious expression, they are just jealous because others are happy and
>>>>they are miserable. :-)
>>>
>>>It is precisely this kind of ignorant smugness that many non-Christians find
>>>so offensive.
>>>
>>>As a Jewish friend of mine put it, "I don't care if people want to celebrate
>>>the birth of a blasphemer, but I do care if they try to ram his birthday down
>>>my throat every year and expect me to be of good cheer."
>>
>>I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand humor, even with the smiley
>>to making it glaringly obvious.
>
>
> I guess he was just trying to reinforce the point you made... ;-)

It does appear so, doesn't it? :-)

Matt

Matt Whiting

December 27th 04, 10:39 PM

Dan Luke wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
>
>>I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand humor, even with the smiley
>>to making it glaringly obvious.
>
>
> I saw the smiley. It seemed to me feeble attempt to sugar coat the arrogance
> of your position. Are you now saying you *don't* believe atheists are
> naturally jealous and miserable because they don't believe your book?

I'm not an atheist and don't know any who profess that belief so I
really don't know. It was a joke. Get it yet?

> BTW, is it "Christian" to call people stupid?

It is Christian to speak the truth.

Matt

Jon Kraus

December 27th 04, 11:15 PM

Everything I said is true and I stand by my statements. And yes Kwanza's
celebrants DID claim it was an African holiday. That is the bull****
part. If you are insulted by my opinion then too ****ing bad. :-) We can
agree to disgree.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner

Gary Drescher wrote:
> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I wouldn't call it a "tirade" at all, you did.
>
>
> Uh, Jon, no one characterizes their own words as a tirade. But Pete's
> characterization is accurate. You disparaged Kwanza as "made-up" (as though
> any holiday could be other than made-up) and "phony" (because it's not a
> native African celebration--even though its celebrants never claimed it
> was!).
>
>
>>I don't believe in the "African-American"
>>bull****. 99% of black folks have never set foot in Africa and have long
>>been remove from relatives that are from Africa.
>
>
> The term "African American" refers to black Americans of African ancestry.
> It does not mean "people who have visited Africa, or who speak to their
> relatives in Africa", contrary to your peculiar objection.
>
> As with the holiday Kwanza, you take the term "African American" and
> misrepresent its meaning in order to make it seem illegitimate. What
> motivates you to do so?
>
>
>>Jon Kraus (an American not a German-American)
>
>
> For many Xs, there are some Americans who prefer to call themselves X
> Americans, some who prefer to call themselves Americans, and some who prefer
> neither. Why is that difference so hard for you to understand or respect?
> Why is it "bull****" for someone's preference to differ from yours in that
> regard? Why do you feel the need to insult people for making a different
> choice than you as to whether to put their ancestry on a par with their
> nationality in their self-description?
>
> --Gary
>
>

[email protected]

December 27th 04, 11:17 PM

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:39:13 -0500, Matt Whiting
> wrote:

>Dan Luke wrote:
>
>> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
>>
>>>I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand humor, even with the smiley
>>>to making it glaringly obvious.
>>
>>
>> I saw the smiley. It seemed to me feeble attempt to sugar coat the arrogance
>> of your position. Are you now saying you *don't* believe atheists are
>> naturally jealous and miserable because they don't believe your book?
>
>I'm not an atheist and don't know any who profess that belief so I
>really don't know. It was a joke. Get it yet?
>
>
>> BTW, is it "Christian" to call people stupid?
>
>It is Christian to speak the truth.
>
>
>Matt

It seems to be "christian" to do whatever suits a "christian's" mood
and inclination at the time, and then create some convenient aphorism
to authorize and validate it.

Bob Noel

December 27th 04, 11:57 PM

In article >, "Dan Luke" >
wrote:

> BTW, is it "Christian" to call people stupid?

probably not.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

Gary Drescher

December 28th 04, 12:29 AM

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Everything I said is true and I stand by my statements. And yes Kwanza's
> celebrants DID claim it was an African holiday.

Uh, *who* supposedly said that, when and where? The Kwanzaa web sites I find
say prominently that Kwanzaa is an African-American holiday founded in 1966
by Dr. Maulana Karenga, drawing in part on some African traditions (e.g.
http://www.tike.com/celeb-kw.htm).

> That is the bull**** part.

No, it was the term "African American" that you called bull**** ("I don't
believe in the 'African-American' bull****. 99% of black folks have never
set foot in Africa... they are just plain old Americans like me... an
American not a German-American").

According to you, people are apparently supposed to designate themselves by
their nationality but not their ancestry. I fully respect *your* choice to
do so, but you have been unwilling or unable to explain why you object to
others choosing differently.

> If you are insulted by my opinion then too ****ing bad. :-) We can agree
> to disgree.

If you were confident that your position has merit, you could first make a
good-faith effort to reach agreement, or at least mutual understanding. To
do that, you would have to supply evidence for your claims (not merely keep
repeating them), and attempt to answer the questions I posed.

Instead, you practice a hit-and-run approach: you disparage others' words or
practices as "phony" and "bull****"; then, when questioned, you refuse to
discuss your opinions except to say "too ****ing bad".

Of course you have a right to behave that way, but others have a right to
respond by criticizing your behavior for what it is. That's how free speech
works--it doesn't mean freedom from criticism.

--Gary

> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner
>
> Gary Drescher wrote:
>> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>I wouldn't call it a "tirade" at all, you did.
>>
>>
>> Uh, Jon, no one characterizes their own words as a tirade. But Pete's
>> characterization is accurate. You disparaged Kwanza as "made-up" (as
>> though any holiday could be other than made-up) and "phony" (because it's
>> not a native African celebration--even though its celebrants never
>> claimed it was!).
>>
>>
>>>I don't believe in the "African-American"
>>>bull****. 99% of black folks have never set foot in Africa and have long
>>>been remove from relatives that are from Africa.
>>
>>
>> The term "African American" refers to black Americans of African
>> ancestry. It does not mean "people who have visited Africa, or who speak
>> to their relatives in Africa", contrary to your peculiar objection.
>>
>> As with the holiday Kwanza, you take the term "African American" and
>> misrepresent its meaning in order to make it seem illegitimate. What
>> motivates you to do so?
>>
>>
>>>Jon Kraus (an American not a German-American)
>>
>>
>> For many Xs, there are some Americans who prefer to call themselves X
>> Americans, some who prefer to call themselves Americans, and some who
>> prefer neither. Why is that difference so hard for you to understand or
>> respect? Why is it "bull****" for someone's preference to differ from
>> yours in that regard? Why do you feel the need to insult people for
>> making a different choice than you as to whether to put their ancestry on
>> a par with their nationality in their self-description?
>>
>> --Gary
>>
>>
>

Bob Korves

December 28th 04, 12:37 AM

Gentlemen, gentlemen!

This thread, now about 100 posts long, is cross posted to 4 different
newsgroups, and is clearly off topic in all the groups it is posted to.
Could we just leave it alone, or at least take the discussion to a group
where it is on topic?

I expect that C J Campbell, who was just trying to be nice to y'all, is
ready to withdraw the kind wishes he sent at this point.

Now, let's talk about airplanes...
-Bob Korves
(sorry for cross posting this message)

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> May God bless you and yours throughout the coming year.
>
> --
> Christopher J. Campbell
> World Famous Flight Instructor
> Port Orchard, WA
>
>
> Ne Obliviscaris
>
>
>

G.R. Patterson III

December 28th 04, 01:24 AM

john smith wrote:
>
> You have to be a Druid.

and be washed in the blood of a tree.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

RobertR237

December 28th 04, 02:26 AM

>
>On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:39:13 -0500, Matt Whiting
> wrote:
>
>>Dan Luke wrote:
>>
>>> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand humor, even with the smiley
>>>>to making it glaringly obvious.
>>>
>>>
>>> I saw the smiley. It seemed to me feeble attempt to sugar coat the
>arrogance
>>> of your position. Are you now saying you *don't* believe atheists are
>>> naturally jealous and miserable because they don't believe your book?
>>
>>I'm not an atheist and don't know any who profess that belief so I
>>really don't know. It was a joke. Get it yet?
>>
>>
>>> BTW, is it "Christian" to call people stupid?
>>
>>It is Christian to speak the truth.
>>
>>
>>Matt
>
>It seems to be "christian" to do whatever suits a "christian's" mood
>and inclination at the time, and then create some convenient aphorism
>to authorize and validate it.
>

It seems that you are prone to generalizations that are without basis in fact.
Christians are simply human and suffer the same human faults as everyone else.
If however you are without fault, you can continue to toss stones.

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

RobertR237

December 28th 04, 02:41 AM

>
>>Why would I be bothered about a statue of a dog?
>>We have statues of horses, elephants, bulls, eagles aned a whole host of
>>other creatures on display in many of the worlds cities.
>>
>
>
>Well, you probably wouldn't be, until the time the government, when at
>last composed solely of Airedale worshippers, insisted that you
>observe the "true" religion, and forced you to get on your knees
>whenever the Holy Airedale went by.
>
>

So when was the last time you were ask to do likewise by a Christian or any
other religion in the US?

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

C J Campbell

December 28th 04, 03:37 AM

"Bob Korves" <bkorves@winfirstDECIMALcom> wrote in message
...
> Gentlemen, gentlemen!
>
> This thread, now about 100 posts long, is cross posted to 4 different
> newsgroups, and is clearly off topic in all the groups it is posted to.
> Could we just leave it alone, or at least take the discussion to a group
> where it is on topic?
>
> I expect that C J Campbell, who was just trying to be nice to y'all, is
> ready to withdraw the kind wishes he sent at this point.
>
> Now, let's talk about airplanes...
> -Bob Korves
> (sorry for cross posting this message)

I was thinking that.

Peter Duniho

December 28th 04, 08:09 AM

> wrote in message
...
> It seems to be "christian" to do whatever suits a "christian's" mood
> and inclination at the time, and then create some convenient aphorism
> to authorize and validate it.

That's like saying "it seems to be 'black' to go around shooting people and
dealing drugs".

Your stereotype of Christians is way off the mark, even if it does describe
many Christians accurately.

Pete

Jay Beckman

December 28th 04, 10:04 AM

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> It seems to be "christian" to do whatever suits a "christian's" mood
>> and inclination at the time, and then create some convenient aphorism
>> to authorize and validate it.
>
> That's like saying "it seems to be 'black' to go around shooting people
> and dealing drugs".
>
> Your stereotype of Christians is way off the mark, even if it does
> describe many Christians accurately.
>
> Pete
>

?

[email protected]

December 28th 04, 12:29 PM

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:09:13 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

> wrote in message
...
>> It seems to be "christian" to do whatever suits a "christian's" mood
>> and inclination at the time, and then create some convenient aphorism
>> to authorize and validate it.
>
>That's like saying "it seems to be 'black' to go around shooting people and
>dealing drugs".
>
>Your stereotype of Christians is way off the mark, even if it does describe
>many Christians accurately.
>
>Pete
>

Well, actually, I was referrring to a single poster who had
stereotyped us atheists as "miserable" creatures, because we don't
share his faith, which faith, or so I am am told, is fairly brimming
over with love for one's fellow man.

But your point is well taken. I shall keep my eye out for those that
don't fit my description.