Cherokees in close formation

[Bob Chilcoat]

I heard what sounded like a twin with poorly sync'd props Sunday. Looked up
and watched two Cherokees in close echelon formation flying over. Never
thought I'd see Cherokees doing that. Now I want to find someone to do that
with. (Joking, our insurance won't allow formation flying).

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

[Darrel Toepfer]

Bob Chilcoat wrote:

> I heard what sounded like a twin with poorly sync'd props Sunday. Looked up
> and watched two Cherokees in close echelon formation flying over. Never
> thought I'd see Cherokees doing that. Now I want to find someone to do that
> with. (Joking, our insurance won't allow formation flying).

"Goldfinger" (1964) http://imdb.com/title/tt0058150

Features Cherokee 140 formation taking off, flying and landing...
By women in rocket bras...

[Frank Stutzman]

Bob Chilcoat > wrote:
> I heard what sounded like a twin with poorly sync'd props Sunday. Looked up
> and watched two Cherokees in close echelon formation flying over. Never
> thought I'd see Cherokees doing that.

The Bonanzas to Oshkosh group put over a 100 bonanzas in loose formation
for a group arrival to the show. A subset of that group does scary tight
(IMHO) formations (see http://www.beechbum.com/pages/1/index.htm)

I've been to several of their practice clinics, but have never done the
group arrival with them. Lots of fun. It is also lots of work, and the
stress of it may not be for everyone.

> Now I want to find someone to do that
> with. (Joking, our insurance won't allow formation flying).

Does your insurance explicity deny coverage for formation flight?



--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[Newps]

Frank Stutzman wrote:

> Bob Chilcoat > wrote:
>
>>I heard what sounded like a twin with poorly sync'd props Sunday. Looked up
>>and watched two Cherokees in close echelon formation flying over. Never
>>thought I'd see Cherokees doing that.
>
>
> The Bonanzas to Oshkosh group put over a 100 bonanzas in loose formation
> for a group arrival to the show.

And screwed up the arrival this year.

[Rolf Blom]

On 2005-08-30 15:57, Bob Chilcoat wrote:
> I heard what sounded like a twin with poorly sync'd props Sunday. Looked up
> and watched two Cherokees in close echelon formation flying over. Never
> thought I'd see Cherokees doing that. Now I want to find someone to do that
> with. (Joking, our insurance won't allow formation flying).
>


A couple of pictures of Skybirds formations:

http://infoworx.se/torget%5Crfk%5Cbilder.nsf/vyImagesSingle/1114-3?OpenDocument&ImageBatch=1114&Category=2002-8
http://www.vemdaleninfo.se/hedlanda/images/2003/flygdag/birds.jpg

(Skybirds is a team of women pilots that can be seen at many airshows in
Sweden, they fly a mixed group of Pa28:s. I couldn't find any english
webpage for them.)

/Rolf

[Frank Stutzman]

Newps > wrote:


> > The Bonanzas to Oshkosh group put over a 100 bonanzas in loose formation
> > for a group arrival to the show.

> And screwed up the arrival this year.

Apparently there were some issues this year. There was a 2 hour weather
hold at Rockford due to weather. An then there was a take off incident
caused the lead of element 13 to abort his takeoff (failed to put his
mixture rich and his engine stalled when he went to full throttle). This
put a gap in the arrival procession.

None the less, the group put 100 planes on the ground at OSH in 20
minutes. Still a pretty good feat, IMO.

So I've been told (http://www.b2osh.org/Reviews/review_2005.htm). Wasn't
there personally.


--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-08-30, Bob Chilcoat > wrote:
> with. (Joking, our insurance won't allow formation flying).

Really? I've never seen an insurance policy do that. Even our club
insurance didn't do that (nor any FBO that I've been to).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Jay Honeck]

> I heard what sounded like a twin with poorly sync'd props Sunday. Looked up
> and watched two Cherokees in close echelon formation flying over. Never
> thought I'd see Cherokees doing that. Now I want to find someone to do that
> with. (Joking, our insurance won't allow formation flying).

Not REAL close formation, but here are a few pix from a couple of weeks
ago, where we flew together with a friend's Cherokee 180:

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/flying_with_doug.htm

And, of course, we flew up to OSH '05 in loose formation with Jack
Allison and his Arrow...

Flying that close to someone is very tiring, but it's tough to get
air-to-air photos any other way!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Michael]

> Joking, our insurance won't allow formation flying

Really? I've never seen an insurance policy like that. Ever.

Mind telling us who writes the policy and the details of the language?

Michael

[Dave Stadt]

"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote in message
...
> I heard what sounded like a twin with poorly sync'd props Sunday. Looked
up
> and watched two Cherokees in close echelon formation flying over. Never
> thought I'd see Cherokees doing that. Now I want to find someone to do
that
> with. (Joking, our insurance won't allow formation flying).

What insurance company might that be? There can be very real safety
benefits to formation flying.

>
> --
> Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
>
>
>

[vincent p. norris]

>Not REAL close formation, but here are a few pix from a couple of weeks
>ago, where we flew together with a friend's Cherokee 180:

Hard to tell his distance; did you shoot those with a 400 mm.
telephoto, or a 27 mm. wide angle?

Offhand, though, it reminds me of how we Naval Aviators (a conceited
bunch) used to define an Air Force formation: "Two or more airplanes
going the same direction on the same day."

vince norris

[Frank Stutzman]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> Not REAL close formation, but here are a few pix from a couple of weeks
> ago, where we flew together with a friend's Cherokee 180:

> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/flying_with_doug.htm

I see that and raise you:

http://www.stutzman.com/frank/flying/B2Osh/index2.htm

I shot those while riding left seat for one of the B2Osh practice
sessions. Cannon A70 camera with probably not all that much zoom. Some
of these B2Osh guys like to get a lot closer than I'm comfortable with.

(Not that these guys are unsafe, quite the contrary. Its just that I'm a
bit uncomfortable about another prop less than 10 feet from my tail
feathers while on the ground, much less than in the air)

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[Bob Chilcoat]

Sorry,

I thought it was an insurance issue, but a new look indicates that the
prohibition against formation flying is a partnership agreement issue. We
also have a prohibition against night flying unless you're instrument rated.
This latter we're in the process of changing to "OK after recent
instruction". I'm sure we could also change the one against formation
flying with the same proviso, if someone really had a yearning to do it.
With only four partners, it's easy to change things like this.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Bob Chilcoat" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I heard what sounded like a twin with poorly sync'd props Sunday. Looked
> up
>> and watched two Cherokees in close echelon formation flying over. Never
>> thought I'd see Cherokees doing that. Now I want to find someone to do
> that
>> with. (Joking, our insurance won't allow formation flying).
>
> What insurance company might that be? There can be very real safety
> benefits to formation flying.
>
>>
>> --
>> Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Hard to tell his distance; did you shoot those with a 400 mm.
> telephoto, or a 27 mm. wide angle?

Just a Canon Elph digital, with a minimal zoom. (The main advantage of this
4 megapixel camera is that it is really SMALL -- and therefore really fits
in your pocket, and therefore is always handy. As a result, I actually
*use* it -- a lot -- as opposed to my old Nikon 35 mm SLR.)

Here's a pic of flying with Jack Allison to OSH this year:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?J553265BB

Without formation training, I wouldn't want to get too much closer to anyone
in flight.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[flyernzl]

I can agree it's tiring.
I have just been doing formation flying training in two, three and
four-ship groups. One hour in the air with that, and I'm absolutely
shot. And that's with an instructor on board!
Next session, I'm due to fly formation solo; not sure if im looking
forward to it or dreading it.
We are using four Grumman AA-1C, but I understand that a club down south
uses three Cherokee.

Bob Chilcoat wrote:
> I heard what sounded like a twin with poorly sync'd props Sunday. Looked up
> and watched two Cherokees in close echelon formation flying over. Never
> thought I'd see Cherokees doing that. Now I want to find someone to do that
> with. (Joking, our insurance won't allow formation flying).
>

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-08-30, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> And, of course, we flew up to OSH '05 in loose formation with Jack
> Allison and his Arrow...
>
> Flying that close to someone is very tiring, but it's tough to get
> air-to-air photos any other way!

It is tiring, but I've done Houston to OSH and back again in formation
(C140 and C170). I've also flown a little bit of VERY close formation
with Debbie Rihn (which kind of made my pilot-rated passenger a little
bit nervous :-))

Our regular group in Houston progressed to making regular formation
takeoffs and landings. Possibly the most bizarre one was when we did a
flight of four (which did NOT include a formation takeoff and landing!)
which consisted of a Cessna 140, Grumman Tiger, Cessna 170...and a Beech
Bonanza. I was flying the Bonanza - gear up but with full flaps! It'll
fly fine with the 140 with the flaps down. (I have some photos of the
Bonanza on my website which were taken from the 140).

Sadly, I've not had the opportunity to do any for the last couple of
years (well, except if you count glider towing and being towed) since
it's something I enjoyed a lot.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[john smith]

Dylan Smith wrote:
> Our regular group in Houston progressed to making regular formation
> takeoffs and landings. Possibly the most bizarre one was when we did a
> flight of four (which did NOT include a formation takeoff and landing!)
> which consisted of a Cessna 140, Grumman Tiger, Cessna 170...and a Beech
> Bonanza. I was flying the Bonanza - gear up but with full flaps! It'll
> fly fine with the 140 with the flaps down. (I have some photos of the
> Bonanza on my website which were taken from the 140).

WEW!!!
Grossly dissimilar aircraft!
The 140 is firewalled, the 170 is happy, the Tiger is in slow cruise,
and the Bo is just hanging on (well, not quite that bad :-)).
Sounds sporting!

[AJ]

Well, of course you need the rocket bras.

[ORVAL FAIRAIRN]

In article >,
flyernzl > wrote:

> I can agree it's tiring.
> I have just been doing formation flying training in two, three and
> four-ship groups. One hour in the air with that, and I'm absolutely
> shot. And that's with an instructor on board!
> Next session, I'm due to fly formation solo; not sure if im looking
> forward to it or dreading it.
> We are using four Grumman AA-1C, but I understand that a club down south
> uses three Cherokee.

We do it all the time (especially Sat AM for breakfast) here at Spruce
Creek. Yes -- the FAST training IS exhausting -- but it makes the
operation a lot safer when everybody is on the same page!

I have found that regular spam cans are a lot of work (due to heavy
controls) to fly in a decent formation. Vernier throttles are a real
pain, as the throttle is tho most important control.

Yes -- the throttle does indeed control airspeed!

Our standard is 3' down, 3' out (wingtip to wingtip) and 45 deg back.

Some of the better groups fly with wingtip overlap (but still stacked
down and back).

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-08-31, john smith > wrote:
> Grossly dissimilar aircraft!
> The 140 is firewalled, the 170 is happy, the Tiger is in slow cruise,
> and the Bo is just hanging on (well, not quite that bad :-)).
> Sounds sporting!

Not too bad - I wouldn't really want to do it on a long cross country
(we were only going 35nm or so), but the Bonanza is very capable of slow
flight. It has very effective Fowler flaps, and using some kept the
plane flying without the nose sticking way up in the air. We were doing
about 90 knots.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dale]

In article >,
Frank Stutzman > wrote:

> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
> > Not REAL close formation, but here are a few pix from a couple of weeks
> > ago, where we flew together with a friend's Cherokee 180:
>
> > http://www.alexisparkinn.com/flying_with_doug.htm
>
> I see that and raise you:
>
> http://www.stutzman.com/frank/flying/B2Osh/index2.htm


Call


http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/bombpics/b24six.jpg

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Frank Stutzman]

Dale > wrote:
> > I see that and raise you:
> >
> > http://www.stutzman.com/frank/flying/B2Osh/index2.htm
> Call
> http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/bombpics/b24six.jpg

Hey, Dale, didn't you catch that this was just a penny ante game ;-)

I think the Collins Foundation pilots are a touch more experianced with
formation flight than your average GA pilot. If you are going to toss
your pictures into the game I'm going to go dig up my Blue
Angels/Thunderbirds pictures :-)

Hmmm, this is probably where a wingman from Seattles Black Jack Squadron
(RV formation team) is going to post a picture of leads altimeter setting.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[vincent p. norris]

> (The main advantage of this megapixel camera is that it is really SMALL --
>and therefore really fits in your pocket, and therefore is always handy. As a
>result, I actually *use* it -- a lot -- as opposed to my old Nikon 35 mm SLR.)

My kids gave me a Sony Cybershsot DSC-U10 for Christmas two years ago.
It's only 3.25 x 1.5 x 1". Only 1.3 mps and no zoom, but like you, I
hardly ever use my 35 mm. any longer.
>
>Here's a pic of flying with Jack Allison to OSH this year:

Nice shot. Looks like Iowa or Wisconsin down there.

>Without formation training, I wouldn't want to get too much closer to anyone
>in flight.

Extremely sensible! Without training, it's just asking for trouble.
And you're not even wearing chutes!

vince norris

[Dale]

In article >,
Frank Stutzman > wrote:


>
> I think the Collins Foundation pilots are a touch more experianced with
> formation flight than your average GA pilot. If you are going to toss
> your pictures into the game I'm going to go dig up my Blue
> Angels/Thunderbirds pictures :-)

Not really. When I was flying for them one was a former F-14 pilot,
another was a FAST instructor, I was a Cessna 206 jump pilot that
stepped up to 4-engine bombers, and a bunch of active/retired airline
pilots. What experience they/we had mostly came from just doing it. <G>

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html