DG-400 Oxygen Bottle Problems

[[email protected]]

The only test and recertification station to serve Utah refuses to test
and fill the german factory bottles for the DG-400 since they do not
have a USA DOT stamp on them. The official regulations (which he
showed me) state that foreign bottles without the DOT stamp can only be
tested for "EXPORT" use. ie, airliner, ship, etc....leaving the USA
for its use. Oxygen suppliers theoretically should not even be filling
the bottles without the DOT stamp on them. I got two bottles out of
date and the last one nearing out of date ( so far I have local
airports filling them if the date stamp is ok, they don't know about
the DOT stamp requirement regarding refills.) On the DG-400 as most of
you know the bottle which has a smaller diameter than USA bottles and
fits in a fiberglass sleeve that threads its way from the cockpit past
the fuel tank without much room to spare. 90% of my flight time is on
Oxygen in the Rockies so it is getting critical to solve this stalmate
with oxygen bottle testing. DG-400 owners, what are you doing to solve
this problem???

[Tim Mara]

this is why we started again offering STEEL bottles......these are slightly
smaller diameter than the later Aluminum and Kevlar bottles
please see my page : http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page35.htm
tim
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com





> wrote in message
oups.com...
> The only test and recertification station to serve Utah refuses to test
> and fill the german factory bottles for the DG-400 since they do not
> have a USA DOT stamp on them. The official regulations (which he
> showed me) state that foreign bottles without the DOT stamp can only be
> tested for "EXPORT" use. ie, airliner, ship, etc....leaving the USA
> for its use. Oxygen suppliers theoretically should not even be filling
> the bottles without the DOT stamp on them. I got two bottles out of
> date and the last one nearing out of date ( so far I have local
> airports filling them if the date stamp is ok, they don't know about
> the DOT stamp requirement regarding refills.) On the DG-400 as most of
> you know the bottle which has a smaller diameter than USA bottles and
> fits in a fiberglass sleeve that threads its way from the cockpit past
> the fuel tank without much room to spare. 90% of my flight time is on
> Oxygen in the Rockies so it is getting critical to solve this stalmate
> with oxygen bottle testing. DG-400 owners, what are you doing to solve
> this problem???
>

[Gary Evans]

German 02 bottles can be hydro tested at the following
facility. Just had mine done and the cost was $47.50
plus shipping.

TYM's
414 West Arbor Vitae Street
Inglewood, Ca 90301
310-673-3330
Fax 310-673-0580



At 18:18 30 August 2005, wrote:
>The only test and recertification station to serve
>Utah refuses to test
>and fill the german factory bottles for the DG-400
>since they do not
>have a USA DOT stamp on them. The official regulations
>(which he
>showed me) state that foreign bottles without the DOT
>stamp can only be
>tested for 'EXPORT' use. ie, airliner, ship, etc....leaving
>the USA
>for its use. Oxygen suppliers theoretically should
>not even be filling
>the bottles without the DOT stamp on them. I got two
>bottles out of
>date and the last one nearing out of date ( so far
>I have local
>airports filling them if the date stamp is ok, they
>don't know about
>the DOT stamp requirement regarding refills.) On the
>DG-400 as most of
>you know the bottle which has a smaller diameter than
>USA bottles and
>fits in a fiberglass sleeve that threads its way from
>the cockpit past
>the fuel tank without much room to spare. 90% of my
>flight time is on
>Oxygen in the Rockies so it is getting critical to
>solve this stalmate
>with oxygen bottle testing. DG-400 owners, what are
>you doing to solve
>this problem???
>
>

[Tim Mara]

you can Hydro test anything.......even a Pepsi can.......but you cannot
legally fill oxygen bottles in the USA without the DOT approval and stamp.
tim

"Gary Evans" > wrote in message
...
> German 02 bottles can be hydro tested at the following
> facility. Just had mine done and the cost was $47.50
> plus shipping.
>
> TYM's
> 414 West Arbor Vitae Street
> Inglewood, Ca 90301
> 310-673-3330
> Fax 310-673-0580
>
>
>
> At 18:18 30 August 2005, wrote:
>>The only test and recertification station to serve
>>Utah refuses to test
>>and fill the german factory bottles for the DG-400
>>since they do not
>>have a USA DOT stamp on them. The official regulations
>>(which he
>>showed me) state that foreign bottles without the DOT
>>stamp can only be
>>tested for 'EXPORT' use. ie, airliner, ship, etc....leaving
>>the USA
>>for its use. Oxygen suppliers theoretically should
>>not even be filling
>>the bottles without the DOT stamp on them. I got two
>>bottles out of
>>date and the last one nearing out of date ( so far
>>I have local
>>airports filling them if the date stamp is ok, they
>>don't know about
>>the DOT stamp requirement regarding refills.) On the
>>DG-400 as most of
>>you know the bottle which has a smaller diameter than
>>USA bottles and
>>fits in a fiberglass sleeve that threads its way from
>>the cockpit past
>>the fuel tank without much room to spare. 90% of my
>>flight time is on
>>Oxygen in the Rockies so it is getting critical to
>>solve this stalmate
>>with oxygen bottle testing. DG-400 owners, what are
>>you doing to solve
>>this problem???
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Andy]

I'd be interested in seeing a link to that rule. My inderstanding was
that it was illegal to transport uncertified cylinders not that it was
illegal to fill them. What is the jurisdiction of DOT? One advantage
of a self-serve club oxygen system I suppose.

Andy

[BTIZ]

until your inspection date runs out.. and then how do you pass the annual
condition inspection for the glider?

B

"Andy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'd be interested in seeing a link to that rule. My inderstanding was
> that it was illegal to transport uncertified cylinders not that it was
> illegal to fill them. What is the jurisdiction of DOT? One advantage
> of a self-serve club oxygen system I suppose.
>
> Andy
>

[[email protected]]

Take to bottle out at annual inspection!!

duh ;)

Al




BTIZ wrote:
> until your inspection date runs out.. and then how do you pass the annual
> condition inspection for the glider?
>
> B
>
> "Andy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > I'd be interested in seeing a link to that rule. My inderstanding was
> > that it was illegal to transport uncertified cylinders not that it was
> > illegal to fill them. What is the jurisdiction of DOT? One advantage
> > of a self-serve club oxygen system I suppose.
> >
> > Andy
> >

[Tim Mara]

how do you fill them if you can't transport them? isn't flying a glider, or
trailering a glider also transporting????
tim

"Andy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'd be interested in seeing a link to that rule. My inderstanding was
> that it was illegal to transport uncertified cylinders not that it was
> illegal to fill them. What is the jurisdiction of DOT? One advantage
> of a self-serve club oxygen system I suppose.
>
> Andy
>

[Gary Emerson]

Me too...

Andy wrote:
> I'd be interested in seeing a link to that rule. My inderstanding was
> that it was illegal to transport uncertified cylinders not that it was
> illegal to fill them. What is the jurisdiction of DOT? One advantage
> of a self-serve club oxygen system I suppose.
>
> Andy
>

[Mal]

so putting it back in should make your insurance invalid and the annual.

Doh

> Take to bottle out at annual inspection!!
>
> duh ;)
>

[Duane Eisenbeiss]

"Mal" > wrote in message
...
> so putting it back in should make your insurance invalid and the annual.
>
> Doh
>
> > Take to bottle out at annual inspection!!
> >
> > duh ;)
> >

When you reinstall the bottle just call it "baggage".

Duane

[BTIZ]

Al.... Al.. Al... I did not want to say it out loud... LOL

BT

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Take to bottle out at annual inspection!!
>
> duh ;)
>
> Al
>
>
>
>
> BTIZ wrote:
>> until your inspection date runs out.. and then how do you pass the annual
>> condition inspection for the glider?
>>
>> B
>>
>> "Andy" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > I'd be interested in seeing a link to that rule. My inderstanding was
>> > that it was illegal to transport uncertified cylinders not that it was
>> > illegal to fill them. What is the jurisdiction of DOT? One advantage
>> > of a self-serve club oxygen system I suppose.
>> >
>> > Andy
>> >
>

[BTIZ]

could be true?

"Mal" > wrote in message
...
> so putting it back in should make your insurance invalid and the annual.
>
> Doh
>
>> Take to bottle out at annual inspection!!
>>
>> duh ;)
>>
>
>

[Steve Hill]

Switch to the EDS Mountain High system...the bottle fits just fine in my
DG-400 and thus ends the problem...it's lighter, works well and for $200
bucks you can buy your own re-fill manifold...amazing how well that takes
care of it.


Steve.

[bumper]

AFAIK, Mountain High has a monopoly on the EDS (electronic demand system)
for aviation use (there are "electronic demand" medical systems, but I doubt
these would be suitable for flying). MH's XR series regulators are also the
best and smallest I've seen. Unfortunately, MH's stuff is priced
accordingly - - as the "High" part of their name implies.

There are more reasonably priced sources for the more common things like the
"transfill" equipment, you mention, used to refill your own O2 bottles. Your
local welding supply place can likely help you out and the price will be
maybe 50% of what MH is charging.

bumper

"Steve Hill" > wrote in message
...
> Switch to the EDS Mountain High system...the bottle fits just fine in my
> DG-400 and thus ends the problem...it's lighter, works well and for $200
> bucks you can buy your own re-fill manifold...amazing how well that takes
> care of it.
>
>
> Steve.
>
>
>
>

[Gary Evans]

Having it tested will make sure its safe and usually
solve the filling issue. I've had no problem with fill
stations but I'm sure you could find one that would
still be concerned about the lack of a DOT stamp. That
however should have also been an issue before it needed
to be tested.
I'll leave the DOT regs to someone with more interest.


At 23:06 30 August 2005, Tim Mara wrote:
>you can Hydro test anything.......even a Pepsi can.......but
>you cannot
>legally fill oxygen bottles in the USA without the
>DOT approval and stamp.
>tim
>
>'Gary Evans' wrote in message
...
>> German 02 bottles can be hydro tested at the following
>> facility. Just had mine done and the cost was $47.50
>> plus shipping.
>>
>> TYM's
>> 414 West Arbor Vitae Street
>> Inglewood, Ca 90301
>> 310-673-3330
>> Fax 310-673-0580
>>
>>
>>
>> At 18:18 30 August 2005, wrote:
>>>The only test and recertification station to serve
>>>Utah refuses to test
>>>and fill the german factory bottles for the DG-400
>>>since they do not
>>>have a USA DOT stamp on them. The official regulations
>>>(which he
>>>showed me) state that foreign bottles without the DOT
>>>stamp can only be
>>>tested for 'EXPORT' use. ie, airliner, ship, etc....leaving
>>>the USA
>>>for its use. Oxygen suppliers theoretically should
>>>not even be filling
>>>the bottles without the DOT stamp on them. I got two
>>>bottles out of
>>>date and the last one nearing out of date ( so far
>>>I have local
>>>airports filling them if the date stamp is ok, they
>>>don't know about
>>>the DOT stamp requirement regarding refills.) On the
>>>DG-400 as most of
>>>you know the bottle which has a smaller diameter than
>>>USA bottles and
>>>fits in a fiberglass sleeve that threads its way from
>>>the cockpit past
>>>the fuel tank without much room to spare. 90% of my
>>>flight time is on
>>>Oxygen in the Rockies so it is getting critical to
>>>solve this stalmate
>>>with oxygen bottle testing. DG-400 owners, what are
>>>you doing to solve
>>>this problem???
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[bumper]

"Gary Evans" > wrote in message
...
> Having it tested will make sure its safe and usually
> solve the filling issue.


Very often, fire extinguisher service places will hydro test tanks. What
ever you do, don't hand it to a welding shop! They'll through it in the
truck with a bunch of others and you will hardly recognize your dinged up
tank when it finds its way home.

bumper

[Gary Evans]

I agree you should always deliver the tank to the testing
facility yourself. I found that out the hard way by
leaving a couple of scuba tanks with a dealer and when
returned it looked like they had been rolled to the
test shop. Fortunately the dealer had insurance and
I got new tanks.


At 03:42 01 September 2005, Bumper wrote:
>
>'Gary Evans' wrote in message
...
>> Having it tested will make sure its safe and usually
>> solve the filling issue.
>
>
>Very often, fire extinguisher service places will hydro
>test tanks. What
>ever you do, don't hand it to a welding shop! They'll
>through it in the
>truck with a bunch of others and you will hardly recognize
>your dinged up
>tank when it finds its way home.
>
>bumper
>
>
>

[Tim Mara]

not exactly......the US bottles have to have a blow out fixture (seal) that
releases if the bottle pressure exceeds the maximum allowed pressures.the
Euro bottles don't have this........or.the DOT stamp of approval....
tim
"Gary Evans" > wrote in message
...
> Having it tested will make sure its safe and usually
> solve the filling issue. I've had no problem with fill
> stations but I'm sure you could find one that would
> still be concerned about the lack of a DOT stamp. That
> however should have also been an issue before it needed
> to be tested.
> I'll leave the DOT regs to someone with more interest.
>
>
> At 23:06 30 August 2005, Tim Mara wrote:
>>you can Hydro test anything.......even a Pepsi can.......but
>>you cannot
>>legally fill oxygen bottles in the USA without the
>>DOT approval and stamp.
>>tim
>>
>>'Gary Evans' wrote in message
...
>>> German 02 bottles can be hydro tested at the following
>>> facility. Just had mine done and the cost was $47.50
>>> plus shipping.
>>>
>>> TYM's
>>> 414 West Arbor Vitae Street
>>> Inglewood, Ca 90301
>>> 310-673-3330
>>> Fax 310-673-0580
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 18:18 30 August 2005, wrote:
>>>>The only test and recertification station to serve
>>>>Utah refuses to test
>>>>and fill the german factory bottles for the DG-400
>>>>since they do not
>>>>have a USA DOT stamp on them. The official regulations
>>>>(which he
>>>>showed me) state that foreign bottles without the DOT
>>>>stamp can only be
>>>>tested for 'EXPORT' use. ie, airliner, ship, etc....leaving
>>>>the USA
>>>>for its use. Oxygen suppliers theoretically should
>>>>not even be filling
>>>>the bottles without the DOT stamp on them. I got two
>>>>bottles out of
>>>>date and the last one nearing out of date ( so far
>>>>I have local
>>>>airports filling them if the date stamp is ok, they
>>>>don't know about
>>>>the DOT stamp requirement regarding refills.) On the
>>>>DG-400 as most of
>>>>you know the bottle which has a smaller diameter than
>>>>USA bottles and
>>>>fits in a fiberglass sleeve that threads its way from
>>>>the cockpit past
>>>>the fuel tank without much room to spare. 90% of my
>>>>flight time is on
>>>>Oxygen in the Rockies so it is getting critical to
>>>>solve this stalmate
>>>>with oxygen bottle testing. DG-400 owners, what are
>>>>you doing to solve
>>>>this problem???
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Tim: I'm glad I posted this item so I could see all these comments.
You are right of course that just finding someone to test it isn't the
answer because without the DOT stamp an alert O2 station shouldn't fill
it. I can't understand why the USA and Germany couldn't have agreed
that for EXPERIMENTAL gliders the German bottle was exempt. Mine are
certified to 2900psi and we only fill generally to 1800psi. What is
the circumference of your "small" diameter bottles? and how long are
they? Capacity ? Cost ?

[[email protected]]

Gary: Did TYM's put a new date stamp on the bottle when they tested it
? Also, what work did they do on the bottle? ie, remove the
valve,sand blast the inside, test and reinstall the valve ? or just
put a pressure test thru your valve without removing it? The reason I
ask is I got the Salt Lake City test site to test one of my bottles 2
years ago and the didn't realise that the thread was metric and when
they put their automatic pressure tester on and it auto-screwed up the
joint it stripped my bottle threads !

[Gary Evans]

They do a lot (perhaps all U.S.) metric bottle testing.
They stamped the bottle and provide a certificate that
it passed test. I don't know if they removed the valve
and/or cleaned the inside. Give them a call and ask
if it matters to you. As explained before the lack
of a DOT stamp has not been a problem for me and I
have used several different filling stations. All metric
bottles obviously have never had DOT stamps and there
are many still in use.
As Tim pointed out metric bottles also do not have
a safety rupture disc installed in the valve, which
is to protect against significant over pressurization,
such as could be caused by fire.
If either is an issue for you a new bottle is the only
choice or only fly low.




At 19:43 08 September 2005,
wrote:
>Gary: Did TYM's put a new date stamp on the bottle
>when they tested it
>? Also, what work did they do on the bottle? ie,
>remove the
>valve,sand blast the inside, test and reinstall the
>valve ? or just
>put a pressure test thru your valve without removing
>it? The reason I
>ask is I got the Salt Lake City test site to test one
>of my bottles 2
>years ago and the didn't realise that the thread was
>metric and when
>they put their automatic pressure tester on and it
>auto-screwed up the
>joint it stripped my bottle threads !
>
>

[Tim Mara]

you can see these bottles (and a lot more) on my page
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page35.htm
the bottles measure 4 3/16" O.D.
essentially, when the major manufacturers of these cylinders went to
Aluminum bottles they kept the same inside volume, but since steel is
stronger they made the wall thickness on the aluminum bottles thicker and
gained a few mm in the process...
And for what it's worth, I spoke directly with the principles at DG and the
former LS a few years ago and told them of the problem....asked why they
couldn't just simply make the openings a few silly millimeters larger to
accommodate the US owners .they in both cases simply shrugged it off and
said to anyone in the USA it's "your problem" in Germany we have no
problems.. real satisfaction I'd say...
tim
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Tim: I'm glad I posted this item so I could see all these comments.
> You are right of course that just finding someone to test it isn't the
> answer because without the DOT stamp an alert O2 station shouldn't fill
> it. I can't understand why the USA and Germany couldn't have agreed
> that for EXPERIMENTAL gliders the German bottle was exempt. Mine are
> certified to 2900psi and we only fill generally to 1800psi. What is
> the circumference of your "small" diameter bottles? and how long are
> they? Capacity ? Cost ?
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Duane Eisenbeiss wrote:

>
>>so putting it back in should make your insurance invalid and the annual.
>>
>>Doh
>>
>>
>>>Take to bottle out at annual inspection!!
>>>
>>>duh ;)
>>>
>
>
> When you reinstall the bottle just call it "baggage".

I might be wrong, but I thought that is exactly what it was all the
time. I don't know of any glider with a certified oxygen installation,
so we all carry oxygen as "portable" equipment. As such, it does not
need FAA inspection and does not affect the aircraft airworthiness
anymore than a flashlight or handheld GPS you carry in the glider.

The problem isn't the FAA, but the DOT requirements. I'm not familiar
with the DOT details, but prudence suggests having the bottle tested
periodically, even if you can get it filled without the DOT stamp.

I avoid the hassle and expense of commercial filling by owning two
glider bottles, which gives me plenty of time to get one filled while
the other is in use. I fill the bottles myself from larger tank that
will allow several refills to 75% or more capacity. The tank is small
enough that I can easily carry it with me on extended soaring trips;
however, the two glider bottles are enough for a week of flying with my
EDS controller.

If you do decide to fill your bottles yourself, be sure to learn how to
do it safely and get the right lines/hoses/valves. Improper equipment
can lead to fires and explosions (been there, watched it done). It is
possible to do it wrong, but done right, it's easy and safe.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA