More Katrina

[Dan Luke]

Local Channel 5 is flying its Robinson 44 helicopter up and down the
coast, sending back video.

Holy ****.

This is far worse than we were being told even this morning. Whole
sections of Biloxi are leveled. Multi-story casinos have been driven
all the way across Hwy 90 and into neighborhoods. It looks like the
city has been carpet bombed.

Hancock County, to the west of Biloxi, is expected to be *worse*! How
that could be possible, I do not know.

And New Orleans is leaking and being looted.

This is awful beyond the wildest nightmare.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[N93332]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> Local Channel 5 is flying its Robinson 44 helicopter up and down the
> coast, sending back video.
>
> Holy ****.
>
> This is far worse than we were being told even this morning. Whole
> sections of Biloxi are leveled. Multi-story casinos have been driven all
> the way across Hwy 90 and into neighborhoods. It looks like the city has
> been carpet bombed.
>
> Hancock County, to the west of Biloxi, is expected to be *worse*! How
> that could be possible, I do not know.
>
> And New Orleans is leaking and being looted.
>
> This is awful beyond the wildest nightmare.

And now Dubya says he's going to cut his vacation short to go and view the
damage. That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the helicopter rescue
operations...

[Dan Luke]

"N93332" wrote:

> And now Dubya says he's going to cut his vacation short to go and view
> the damage. That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the
> helicopter rescue operations...

Would you expect the President *not* to come down to the scene of a
disaster of this magnitude?

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Sammy]

> > This is awful beyond the wildest nightmare.
>
> And now Dubya says he's going to cut his vacation short to go and view the
> damage. That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the helicopter rescue
> operations...
>

Are you one of those people who likes to take cheap shots at our President
just because you don't like his policies ? Every major news outlet is
reporting that the President is returning to Washington. Even cnn.com says
"Bush was expected to visit the region affected by Katrina, but details on
that trip were in flux as the White House worked to make sure the president
would not disrupt response efforts."

[john smith]

>>>This is awful beyond the wildest nightmare.

>>And now Dubya says he's going to cut his vacation short to go and view the
>>damage. That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the helicopter rescue
>>operations...

> Are you one of those people who likes to take cheap shots at our President
> just because you don't like his policies ? Every major news outlet is
> reporting that the President is returning to Washington. Even cnn.com says
> "Bush was expected to visit the region affected by Katrina, but details on
> that trip were in flux as the White House worked to make sure the president
> would not disrupt response efforts."

This is a question of the lesser of two evils and the most good.

Does the President stop and take a "land" tour of the area, drawing
precious resources from the recovery efforts?

or,

Does the President do a flyover in AF1 enroute to DC and let the boots
on the ground do their job?

In this case, politics will probably interfer with the job at hand.
It doesn't matter if there is a D or an R after the title.
The President's physically being there doesn't contribute anything to
clearing the debris and getting the infrastructure back in working order.

[N93332]

"Sammy" > wrote in message
.. .
>> > This is awful beyond the wildest nightmare.
>
> Are you one of those people who likes to take cheap shots at our President
> just because you don't like his policies ? Every major news outlet is
> reporting that the President is returning to Washington. Even cnn.com
> says
> "Bush was expected to visit the region affected by Katrina, but details on
> that trip were in flux as the White House worked to make sure the
> president
> would not disrupt response efforts."

Sorry, I heard on NBC news that Bush was heading to the area and posted my
response. I later checked some news websites that say he headed to DC and
won't be going to the area, yet...

[W P Dixon]

Well he is in the political Catch 22. If the Pres does go people will bitch,
and if he doesn't people will bitch and say he doesn't care. Sometimes you
just can't win can you. Sad when we have to let our politics effect such a
awful situation. R or D, put it aside and help those in need. People with no
clean water to drink don't give an iota about our agreeing with the
Presidents policies, or agreeing with Ted Kennedy nor anyone else. They
would however like to give there children clean water and food.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"N93332" > wrote in message
...
> "Sammy" > wrote in message
> .. .
>>> > This is awful beyond the wildest nightmare.
>>
>> Are you one of those people who likes to take cheap shots at our
>> President
>> just because you don't like his policies ? Every major news outlet is
>> reporting that the President is returning to Washington. Even cnn.com
>> says
>> "Bush was expected to visit the region affected by Katrina, but details
>> on
>> that trip were in flux as the White House worked to make sure the
>> president
>> would not disrupt response efforts."
>
> Sorry, I heard on NBC news that Bush was heading to the area and posted my
> response. I later checked some news websites that say he headed to DC and
> won't be going to the area, yet...
>

[George Patterson]

N93332 wrote:
>
> That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the helicopter rescue
> operations...

They put TFRs in place this afternoon.
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2005/050830tfrs.html

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Dan Luke]

"George Patterson" wrote:
>>
>> That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the helicopter rescue
>> operations...
>
> They put TFRs in place this afternoon.

This morning.

My airplane is stuck in Dothan until they lift the TFR over Mobile.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[George Patterson]

Dan Luke wrote:
>
> My airplane is stuck in Dothan until they lift the TFR over Mobile.

Well, at least it's safe there, right?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[TL]

"Dan Luke" > wrote:
>Holy ****.
>
>This is far worse than we were being told even this morning. Whole
>sections of Biloxi are leveled. Multi-story casinos have been driven
>all the way across Hwy 90 and into neighborhoods. It looks like the
>city has been carpet bombed.
>
>Hancock County, to the west of Biloxi, is expected to be *worse*! How
>that could be possible, I do not know.


The damage is exactly what knowledgeable people would expect from a
strong cat 4 or marginal cat 5 hurricane hitting such an area.
Welcome to Hurricane Reality 101.

The lesson has been taught many times in the past but it is a lesson
conveniently forgotten by many. Indeed, sometimes the lesson is never
learned in the first place. I just saw an interview on TV with a
woman whose wood frame house was reduced to rubble by Katrina. She
remarked, "We made it through Camille so I thought we could make it
through this one". What she didn't realize, and what most people
don't realize, is that a mere 10 miles one way or the other in cat 4
or 5 hurricane can mean the difference between total destruction or
just a few tree limbs down. In truth, that lady didn't "make it
through Camille", she made it through the periphery of Camille. She,
like most, didn't understand the difference. It's a crap shoot, and
those who win the bet a few times and escape the eye wall often become
emboldened and mistakenly believe that they know what hurricanes are
all about. Yesterday, such ignorance killed hundreds of people.

The levee breach and the resulting flooding of New Orleans is a sad
testament to man's arrogance in trying to re-engineer nature. With
upwards of 50,000 people remaining in a city with no functional
plumbing, the flooded streets will soon be awash with sewage and other
contaminates. Potable water is scarce. Widespread disease and
pestilence could follow. Hundreds have died and thousands more may
die. There are more than 25,000 people in a Superdome with no
functional plumbing. They must be evacuated immediately. The water
level in the streets is rising as the basin pumps fail one by one.
The true scope of this disaster on a human scale is only beginning to
be played out. The official response so far has been underwhelming.
A much larger mobilization is needed.

Meanwhile, president Bush is at a Naval Air Station in Colorado making
a speech in which he compares his administration's politically
motivated hegemony in Iraq with WW2. "Once again we will not rest
until victory is America's and our freedom is secure." Any American
who buys in to such bull**** is a ****ing idiot.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-08-30, Dan Luke > wrote:
>
> "N93332" wrote:
>
>> And now Dubya says he's going to cut his vacation short to go and view
>> the damage. That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the
>> helicopter rescue operations...
>
> Would you expect the President *not* to come down to the scene of a
> disaster of this magnitude?

No, but for all else concerned (rescuers, relief workers etc.) he would
be doing everyone a favour if he stayed away. Making the flight
environment more difficult for helicopter crews is NOT helpful.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-08-31, W P Dixon > wrote:
> Well he is in the political Catch 22. If the Pres does go people will bitch,
> and if he doesn't people will bitch and say he doesn't care.

If the President is indeed strong, he will Do The Right Thing - not the
political thing. The Right Thing at this moment in time, I wager, is to
not get in the way. If necessary, he can explain why he is keeping away
- then the people criticising him will look rather pathetic that they
essentially want rescue work to be intefered with.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Darrel Toepfer]

George Patterson wrote:
> N93332 wrote:
>
>> That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the helicopter rescue
>> operations...
>
> They put TFRs in place this afternoon.
> http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2005/050830tfrs.html

4 planes busted his left coast TFR on Tuesday... News said nobody was
arrested. FOXnews scrolled something about shooting planes down in DC
again. Didn't see it repeated and only caught the tailend of it one time...

[Peter Clark]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:21:26 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>N93332 wrote:
>>
>> That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the helicopter rescue
>> operations...
>
>They put TFRs in place this afternoon.
>http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2005/050830tfrs.html

None of which are for the visit. "The TFRs extend from the surface to
5,000 feet agl. Additional TFRs may be established when President Bush
travels to the area to survey the damage. He is expected to tour the
area later this week." The TFRs text themselves say "TO PROVIDE A
SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR HURRICANE DISASTER RELIEF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS".

[Morgans]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote

> No, but for all else concerned (rescuers, relief workers etc.) he would
> be doing everyone a favour if he stayed away. Making the flight
> environment more difficult for helicopter crews is NOT helpful.

IMHO, people, in such dire situations, EXPECT the president to show concern
by making an appearance, be he Democrat, or Republican. It is tradition,
and expected. It will be a quick trip, in and out.

Not to show would be like your dad not coming to see you in the hospital.
Not much class.
--
Jim in NC

[Denny]

Well TL, quite a diatribe... I do not disagree with the basic premise
of your argument about some people being blind to reality and basically
stupid... Which is exactly what shows in your twisting about at the end
to make this storm and your diatribe an excuse for a political attack
upon the president, complete with vulgar language...
Whether you agree or disagree with the Bush administration starting a
war in Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with the extent of the damage
from the hurricane or the response of the local and federal
governmental units to that disaster... You would be better off, and so
would we, if you take your political crap and your cursing off this
newsgroup and go inhabit one of the politcal forums...

Dennis o'Connor
Hemlock, Mi

[Dan Luke]

"George Patterson" wrote:

>> My airplane is stuck in Dothan until they lift the TFR over Mobile.
>
> Well, at least it's safe there, right?

Yes, the decision to fly out was correct, of course. BFM suffered
extensive damage. Teledyne Continental's shop buildings appear to have
lost much of their roofs.

The TFR over the Mobile area seems unnecessary. There is widespread
damage, but not on a scale requiring rescue operatons by aircraft as in
MS and LA.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[John Theune]

Peter Clark wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:21:26 GMT, George Patterson
> > wrote:
>
>
>>N93332 wrote:
>>
>>>That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the helicopter rescue
>>>operations...
>>
>>They put TFRs in place this afternoon.
>>http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2005/050830tfrs.html
>
>
> None of which are for the visit. "The TFRs extend from the surface to
> 5,000 feet agl. Additional TFRs may be established when President Bush
> travels to the area to survey the damage. He is expected to tour the
> area later this week." The TFRs text themselves say "TO PROVIDE A
> SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR HURRICANE DISASTER RELIEF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS".
And all the TFRs make exception for military and police aircraft. Guess
who's doing the rescue flights?

[Denny]

Well, given my antipathy to the unreasonable and uncompensated taking
of the public airspace by the TFR's in the first place my initial
response is to say, "here we go again"... I do see they have limited
this TFR to 5,000' AGL, which is semi reasonable... I would have set
the ceiling at 1000' and over a more limited area if I were the
administrator... The box over New Orleans is reasonable.. The blocked
off coastline is not... I do not see why the TFR has to cover tens of
thousands of square miles... Certainly there is not going to be such a
crowd of rescue aircraft throughout the area that an aircraft passing
through is going to be a safety threat... I see the interminable news
helicopters, who always get permission to fly over a sensitive area,
endlessly buzzing around at a 100 feet to be the far greater threat to
SAR aircraft than the fella who simply needs to pass through the area
on his way to somewhere else...


denny

[Dan Luke]

"TL" wrote:

>
> The levee breach and the resulting flooding of New Orleans is a sad
> testament to man's arrogance in trying to re-engineer nature.

Yes, the entire area epitomizes some of humanities worst ideas WRT
controlling its environment. Channelize the Mississippi? What folly.

> Meanwhile, president Bush is at a Naval Air Station in Colorado making
> a speech in which he compares his administration's politically
> motivated hegemony in Iraq with WW2. "Once again we will not rest
> until victory is America's and our freedom is secure." Any American
> who buys in to such bull**** is a ****ing idiot.

Whom do you expect to influence by posting such words in a peaceful
newsgroup? My feelings WRT Mr. Bush, notwithstanding, I find them
offensive, as I'm sure most others do. As Denny points out, there are
ng's where such things may be appropriate, but not here.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"N93332" > wrote in message
...
> "Dan Luke" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Local Channel 5 is flying its Robinson 44 helicopter up and down the
>> coast, sending back video.
>>
>> Holy ****.
>>
>> This is far worse than we were being told even this morning. Whole
>> sections of Biloxi are leveled. Multi-story casinos have been driven all
>> the way across Hwy 90 and into neighborhoods. It looks like the city has
>> been carpet bombed.
>>
>> Hancock County, to the west of Biloxi, is expected to be *worse*! How
>> that could be possible, I do not know.
>>
>> And New Orleans is leaking and being looted.
>>
>> This is awful beyond the wildest nightmare.
>
> And now Dubya says he's going to cut his vacation short to go and view the
> damage. That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the helicopter rescue
> operations...
>

Hey Knee-Jerk. There is already 3 TFRs in the area and when has a President
not visited a disaster site?

[[email protected]]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...

> IMHO, people, in such dire situations, EXPECT the president
> to show concern by making an appearance, be he Democrat,
> or Republican. It is tradition, and expected. It will be a
> quick trip, in and out.

I personally don't believe that "tradition" has priority in an
emergency situation.

> Not to show would be like your dad not coming to see you
> in the hospital. Not much class.

No, I think a more appropriate analogy would be your dad
not being allowed in the operating room during surgery,
when he would be in the way. The appropriate time for
your dad to visit is when you are recuperating, and the
emergency is over.

Same with the President, IMO.

But that's just my opinion.
Being Canadian, my opinion's probably wrong anyway. <g>

> Jim in NC

--
Jeff Shirton jshirton at cogeco
dot ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Keep thy airspeed up, lest the earth come from below
and smite thee. - William Kershner
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[N93332]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:W1jRe.6898$7f5.2704@okepread01...
>> And now Dubya says he's going to cut his vacation short to go and view
>> the damage. That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the helicopter
>> rescue operations...
>>
>
> Hey Knee-Jerk. There is already 3 TFRs in the area and when has a
> President not visited a disaster site?

If you read my response, you'll note that I made the mistake of
misunderstanding the NBC news report saying that Mr. Bush was going from his
vacation in Texas directly to the hurricane damage area. After posting that
response, I checked some news websites to find out that Mr. Bush isn't going
right away.

I do expect a president of either party to make a visit, just not
'immediately'. I apologize for the previous response...

-Greg B.

[George Patterson]

Darrel Toepfer wrote:
>
> 4 planes busted his left coast TFR on Tuesday... News said nobody was
> arrested.

Doesn't mean much. You don't get arrested for violation of a TFR (though there
are rumblings in Congress about changing this with respect to the DC ADIZ) --
you get violated by the FAA. Any idea whether the FAA acted on these?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[john smith]

Listening to CNN, they are commenting on how Bush-1 was criticized for
not going to Florida following Andrew.
It seems like W's handlers are working hard to not let their boy be
acquised of making the same mistake.
The parallels are amusing.
If it's not one thing (Iraq) it's another (hurricane damage).
To borrow (loosely) from GM, "This is not your daddy's Oldsmobile."
:-))

[Ross Richardson]

I heard that he cut it short and was returning to DC, not view the area

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI


Dan Luke wrote:
> "N93332" wrote:
>
>
>>And now Dubya says he's going to cut his vacation short to go and view
>>the damage. That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the
>>helicopter rescue operations...
>
>
> Would you expect the President *not* to come down to the scene of a
> disaster of this magnitude?
>

[Blueskies]

"Sammy" > wrote in message .. .
>> > This is awful beyond the wildest nightmare.
>>
>> And now Dubya says he's going to cut his vacation short to go and view the
>> damage. That's all they need, a TFR to shut down all the helicopter rescue
>> operations...
>>
>
> Are you one of those people who likes to take cheap shots at our President
> just because you don't like his policies ? Every major news outlet is
> reporting that the President is returning to Washington. Even cnn.com says
> "Bush was expected to visit the region affected by Katrina, but details on
> that trip were in flux as the White House worked to make sure the president
> would not disrupt response efforts."
>
>

[Blueskies]

"john smith" > wrote in message . ..
> Listening to CNN, they are commenting on how Bush-1 was criticized for not going to Florida following Andrew.
> It seems like W's handlers are working hard to not let their boy be acquised of making the same mistake.
> The parallels are amusing.
> If it's not one thing (Iraq) it's another (hurricane damage).
> To borrow (loosely) from GM, "This is not your daddy's Oldsmobile."
> :-))

oh well, back to piloting...

I would be pretty cool to buzz the beach with a 747 (Bush did it today)

back OT

I can't imagine what those folks on the ground thought; look, there goes AF1, I wonder if he has any fresh water? Is
that thing air-conditioned? Maybe they'll drop some food?

[Montblack]

("john smith" wrote)
> Listening to CNN, they are commenting on how Bush-1 was criticized for not
> going to Florida following Andrew.
> It seems like W's handlers are working hard to not let their boy be
> acquised of making the same mistake.


(ramblings...)

Remember the (1990's) Clinton flap over FEMA aid not going to Republican
stronghold disaster areas?

Democratic areas would have a small hailstorm roll through their area, and
suddenly, Federal Disaster Relief money would start raining down from the
heavens. Republican districts would need an F-5 tornado parking itself over
their town, for a week, before they were allowed to apply for help from
Washington. :-)

I'm wondering why the levees broke?? Grand Forks, ND (1997) sure, they got
nailed by floodwaters, then fire. Tough break. N.O. (2005) ...your city is
below sea level people!! Those levees should have been ...oh, never mind.
:-(

Salt Lake City (1999) medium size tornado makes a direct hit on Downtown -
No Looting.

People across the city stopped what they were doing and cleaned up the
mess - until the job was done - then resumed what they were doing. No
comparing the two natural disasters, but no comparing the preparedness of
the two local governments, and reaction of the citizens either.

CBS news (Tuesday) said people were looting out of a need to survive. It had
only been 18 hours folks!! CBS news is banned from this house for the rest
of the year.

GTW, Margene knows I mean business with my TV news station bans - I've been
"double secret probation" banning different outlets for over a decade. ABC
(A for arrogant) news was banned from our home for 6 months, after their
9-11 carping about W 'hiding' and not being back in Washington that first
afternoon. I didn't care if it was Clinton, Carter, Reagan, Ford, Nixon or W
....I wanted my President's butt up in Air Force One that day!!

Our local FOX outlet gets turned off, mid story, at least twice a week.

W needs to make a Marine One fly-over - that's it. Back in Washington he
needs to "go" up to The Hill and meet in the offices of the Senators and
Congresspeople of that region - photo ops all around are ok. Then he needs
to have them all over for a morning prayer breakfast and more photo ops in
the White House.

Send First Lady Laura Bush to the Gulf Coast...and Cheney, if anyone knows
where he is. He can tour the damaged oil rigs.

'43' should hold off making his entrance for 3 more days.


Montblack

[peter]

Montblack wrote:
> Salt Lake City (1999) medium size tornado makes a direct hit on Downtown -
> No Looting.

> People across the city stopped what they were doing and cleaned up the
> mess - until the job was done - then resumed what they were doing. No
> comparing the two natural disasters, but no comparing the preparedness of
> the two local governments, and reaction of the citizens either.

You were right with the comment that there's no comparing the disasters
- so why are you trying to do just that? I've been through a pretty
bad tornado. Our house was lifted off the foundation and dropped on
our neighbor's lot which was empty since their house was now down the
block a little farther. Most houses on our side of the street were
left in other lots. But the neighbors just across the street suffered
no damage at all. Police and other emergency services could quickly
deal with the situation since it covered a limited area. But they
still set up roadblocks manned by police and National Guard units who
only let in residents with proper IDs specifically to prevent looting.
And this was in a small midwest town in the supposedly law-abiding
'50s.
The devastation in New Orleans and surrounding coastal areas is on a
completely different scale.

> CBS news (Tuesday) said people were looting out of a need to survive. It had
> only been 18 hours folks!! CBS news is banned from this house for the rest
> of the year.

No excuse for those who were filling shopping carts with TVs and other
electronics. But there were quite a few people who barely escaped from
their flooded dwellings and found themselves without food or water. I
can't see fault with them if they grab some bottled water and food. 18
hours can be a long time to be without a source of potable water -
especially if there are any young children in the family.

[Matt Whiting]

TL wrote:

> "Dan Luke" > wrote:
>
>>Holy ****.
>>
>>This is far worse than we were being told even this morning. Whole
>>sections of Biloxi are leveled. Multi-story casinos have been driven
>>all the way across Hwy 90 and into neighborhoods. It looks like the
>>city has been carpet bombed.
>>
>>Hancock County, to the west of Biloxi, is expected to be *worse*! How
>>that could be possible, I do not know.
>
>
>
> The damage is exactly what knowledgeable people would expect from a
> strong cat 4 or marginal cat 5 hurricane hitting such an area.
> Welcome to Hurricane Reality 101.
>
> The lesson has been taught many times in the past but it is a lesson
> conveniently forgotten by many. Indeed, sometimes the lesson is never
> learned in the first place. I just saw an interview on TV with a
> woman whose wood frame house was reduced to rubble by Katrina. She
> remarked, "We made it through Camille so I thought we could make it
> through this one". What she didn't realize, and what most people
> don't realize, is that a mere 10 miles one way or the other in cat 4
> or 5 hurricane can mean the difference between total destruction or
> just a few tree limbs down. In truth, that lady didn't "make it
> through Camille", she made it through the periphery of Camille. She,
> like most, didn't understand the difference. It's a crap shoot, and
> those who win the bet a few times and escape the eye wall often become
> emboldened and mistakenly believe that they know what hurricanes are
> all about. Yesterday, such ignorance killed hundreds of people.

Yes, and the ignorance of even allowing stud frame construction in
hurricane zones to begin with. Personally, I think if people want to
live in these areas and get government help when the inevitable cat 4 or
5 comes through, then the building codes should require reinforced
concrete construction (or something similar) with steel window shutters,
backup generators, etc. for all new construction.


> The levee breach and the resulting flooding of New Orleans is a sad
> testament to man's arrogance in trying to re-engineer nature. With
> upwards of 50,000 people remaining in a city with no functional
> plumbing, the flooded streets will soon be awash with sewage and other
> contaminates. Potable water is scarce. Widespread disease and
> pestilence could follow. Hundreds have died and thousands more may
> die. There are more than 25,000 people in a Superdome with no
> functional plumbing. They must be evacuated immediately. The water
> level in the streets is rising as the basin pumps fail one by one.
> The true scope of this disaster on a human scale is only beginning to
> be played out. The official response so far has been underwhelming.
> A much larger mobilization is needed.

Yep, I've always thought it was nuts to build in a location that is both
near the ocean and below sea level. This is OK in Death Valley, but
pure folly near the coast.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Dylan Smith wrote:

> On 2005-08-31, W P Dixon > wrote:
>
>>Well he is in the political Catch 22. If the Pres does go people will bitch,
>>and if he doesn't people will bitch and say he doesn't care.
>
>
> If the President is indeed strong, he will Do The Right Thing - not the
> political thing. The Right Thing at this moment in time, I wager, is to
> not get in the way. If necessary, he can explain why he is keeping away
> - then the people criticising him will look rather pathetic that they
> essentially want rescue work to be intefered with.
>

The right thing, IMO, would be to visit quietly and not have a TFR.
Does anyone really believe that a credible terrorist threat could be
mounted in such a disaster zone? Let's use some basic sense here.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

TL wrote:

> Meanwhile, president Bush is at a Naval Air Station in Colorado making
> a speech in which he compares his administration's politically
> motivated hegemony in Iraq with WW2. "Once again we will not rest
> until victory is America's and our freedom is secure." Any American
> who buys in to such bull**** is a ****ing idiot.

And anyone who would write this is likewise.


Matt

[john smith]

> The right thing, IMO, would be to visit quietly and not have a TFR. Does
> anyone really believe that a credible terrorist threat could be mounted
> in such a disaster zone? Let's use some basic sense here.

The current TFR has nothing to do with the Pres.
TFR's have historically been used in times of emergency to keep the
Lookie Loo's out of the area.

[TL]

"Dan Luke" > wrote:

>My feelings WRT Mr. Bush, notwithstanding, I find them
>offensive, as I'm sure most others do.

How amusing. A cursory check reveals that you not only engage in
political commentary here, but you curse as well ("Bull****" just a
few days ago). Your hypocrisy is showing. In truth, it wasn't the
curse word that offended you, it was the phrase that offended you, and
it offended you because it fit. Let's not pretend otherwise. I am
pleased that I offended the intended audience. As for any choirboys I
may have also offended, I couldn't care less.

[[email protected]]

Blueskies wrote:
> "john smith" > wrote in message . ..
>
> I would be pretty cool to buzz the beach with a 747 (Bush did it today)
>
> back OT
>
> I can't imagine what those folks on the ground thought; look, there goes AF1, I wonder if he has any fresh water? Is
> that thing air-conditioned? Maybe they'll drop some food?

One person I saw interviewed on the news said it was a sign of hope for
them that "they know what's happening here." If the President is flying
over, then surely help can't be too far away.

AF1 is probably one of the most potent icons of the American nation out
there. No matter where you are in the world, when people hear a plane
and look up, and realize that it's AF1, everything stops. She's a
symbol not of her individual passengers with all their well-documented
flaws, but of the Presidency as an institution. How many times has a
blue-and-white bird been the backdrop of an indelible image?

-cwk.

[TL]

Matt Whiting > wrote:

>>Any American who buys in to such bull**** is a ****ing idiot.

>And anyone who would write this is likewise.

And another of the flag waving sheep chimes in. My final paragraph
was just as accurate as the preceding three. I'm pleased that it
jerked your chain.

[TL]

"Denny" > wrote:

>Well TL, quite a diatribe... I do not disagree with the basic premise
>of your argument about some people being blind to reality and basically
>stupid... Which is exactly what shows in your twisting about at the end
>to make this storm and your diatribe an excuse for a political attack
>upon the president, complete with vulgar language...

In other words, "Oh, he said a bad word! Oh, he attacked the
president's policy! I'm shocked! I'm mortified!"

Go back to your choir loft, Denny boy. My comments stand correct as
stated, all four paragraphs. Sometimes the truth stings, huh? In
case you haven't noticed, this newsgroup is rife with political
commentary and vulgar language both on and off topic. Such is the
nature of USENET. I'll continue to post what I wish, when I wish, and
where I wish. To that end: Those who buy into the administration's
war in Iraq have their head firmly buried in the sand, and, yes, to me
they are ****ing idiots. Deal with it.

[Montblack]

("TL" wrote)
[snip]
> In case you haven't noticed, this newsgroup is rife with political
> commentary and vulgar language both on and off topic. Such is the
> nature of USENET. I'll continue to post what I wish, when I wish, and
> where I wish. To that end: Those who buy into the administration's
> war in Iraq have their head firmly buried in the sand, and, yes, to me
> they are ****ing idiots. Deal with it.


People are seldom crude or vulgar here ...the 'F'enheimer is rare in this
newsgroup - thank goodness.

....but yes, sometimes "bloviating idiot" fits.


M*#^*&%*k

[LWG]

I'll never forget my thoughts as I watched Air Force 1, with former
President Clinton aboard, as it "held short" for about five minutes at
Andrews, right after President Bush was sworn in.

I had an intense mental image of two guys in the cockpit trying to plug that
GPSMAP 12 into the cigarette lighter, and jiggling the the eight power cords
velcroed to the panel to see which one wasn't plugged in right.

Les


> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Blueskies wrote:
>> "john smith" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>> I would be pretty cool to buzz the beach with a 747 (Bush did it today)
>>
>> back OT
>>
>> I can't imagine what those folks on the ground thought; look, there goes
>> AF1, I wonder if he has any fresh water? Is
>> that thing air-conditioned? Maybe they'll drop some food?
>
> One person I saw interviewed on the news said it was a sign of hope for
> them that "they know what's happening here." If the President is flying
> over, then surely help can't be too far away.
>
> AF1 is probably one of the most potent icons of the American nation out
> there. No matter where you are in the world, when people hear a plane
> and look up, and realize that it's AF1, everything stops. She's a
> symbol not of her individual passengers with all their well-documented
> flaws, but of the Presidency as an institution. How many times has a
> blue-and-white bird been the backdrop of an indelible image?
>
> -cwk.
>

[Dan Luke]

"TL" wrote:

>
>>My feelings WRT Mr. Bush, notwithstanding, I find them
>>offensive, as I'm sure most others do.
>
> How amusing. A cursory check reveals that you not only engage in
> political commentary here, but you curse as well ("Bull****" just a
> few days ago). Your hypocrisy is showing. In truth, it wasn't the
> curse word that offended you, it was the phrase that offended you, and
> it offended you because it fit. Let's not pretend otherwise.

I'm pretending nothing. If you had bothered to do more than a cursory
check, you would know that.

As to the language, it's a matter of degree, as are most things.

> I am
> pleased that I offended the intended audience.

That makes you a troll, doesn't it?

> As for any choirboys I
> may have also offended, I couldn't care less.

That seems unlikely, given your defensive reaction.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Matt Whiting]

TL wrote:

> Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
>
>>>Any American who buys in to such bull**** is a ****ing idiot.
>
>
>>And anyone who would write this is likewise.
>
>
> And another of the flag waving sheep chimes in. My final paragraph
> was just as accurate as the preceding three. I'm pleased that it
> jerked your chain.

Ha, ha, ha, you wish. I hope you didn't dislocate your shoulder while
patting yourself on the back. :-)

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

TL wrote:

> Go back to your choir loft, Denny boy. My comments stand correct as
> stated, all four paragraphs. Sometimes the truth stings, huh? In
> case you haven't noticed, this newsgroup is rife with political
> commentary and vulgar language both on and off topic. Such is the
> nature of USENET. I'll continue to post what I wish, when I wish, and
> where I wish. To that end: Those who buy into the administration's
> war in Iraq have their head firmly buried in the sand, and, yes, to me
> they are ****ing idiots.

You seem to be an expert in this area of being an idiot.

[JohnH]

LWG wrote:
> I'll never forget my thoughts as I watched Air Force 1, with former
> President Clinton aboard, as it "held short" for about five minutes at
> Andrews, right after President Bush was sworn in.
>
> I had an intense mental image of two guys in the cockpit trying to
> plug that GPSMAP 12 into the cigarette lighter, and jiggling the the
> eight power cords velcroed to the panel to see which one wasn't
> plugged in right.

THAT was funny.

[Blueskies]

"Montblack" > wrote in message ...
>snip> Send First Lady Laura Bush to the Gulf Coast...and Cheney, if anyone knows where he is. He can tour the damaged
>oil rigs.
>
> Montblack
>

Didja hear what Laura said? Something like "Why those kids need to get back in school", to which the reply was "The
schools are gone, maam."

[Blueskies]

"TL" > wrote in message ...
> "Denny" > wrote:
>
>>Well TL, quite a diatribe... I do not disagree with the basic premise
>>of your argument about some people being blind to reality and basically
>>stupid... Which is exactly what shows in your twisting about at the end
>>to make this storm and your diatribe an excuse for a political attack
>>upon the president, complete with vulgar language...
>
> In other words, "Oh, he said a bad word! Oh, he attacked the
> president's policy! I'm shocked! I'm mortified!"
>
> Go back to your choir loft, Denny boy. My comments stand correct as
> stated, all four paragraphs. Sometimes the truth stings, huh? In
> case you haven't noticed, this newsgroup is rife with political
> commentary and vulgar language both on and off topic. Such is the
> nature of USENET. I'll continue to post what I wish, when I wish, and
> where I wish. To that end: Those who buy into the administration's
> war in Iraq have their head firmly buried in the sand, and, yes, to me
> they are ****ing idiots. Deal with it.
>
>

More: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/print.php

"Friday, September 2nd, 2005
Vacation is Over... an open letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush

Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and
need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them?
I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they
signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only
a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power.
That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know
you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to
go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with
your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck
could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers'
budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money
to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more
important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot
descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you
couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep
pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in
the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global
warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4
tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens
of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to
Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has
nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of
New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore

www.MichaelMoore.com

P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War
dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before
they get to DC on September 21st."

[john smith]

Blueskies wrote:
> More: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/print.php

What is to be said?
Let's not overlook the obvious, Michael Moore is an idiot.
Michael Moore is in the entertainment industry.
People who take him seriously are just not living in the real world.
His rants and views are no different than the Daley Show on the Comedy
Channel.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 14:26:04 GMT, john smith > wrote in
>::

> Blueskies wrote:
>> More: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/print.php
>
>What is to be said?
>Let's not overlook the obvious, Michael Moore is an idiot.
>Michael Moore is in the entertainment industry.
>People who take him seriously are just not living in the real world.
>His rants and views are no different than the Daley Show on the Comedy
>Channel.

Tell it to the Limbaugh fans.

[Newps]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 14:26:04 GMT, john smith > wrote in
> >::
>
>
>> Blueskies wrote:
>>
>>>More: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/print.php
>>
>>What is to be said?
>>Let's not overlook the obvious, Michael Moore is an idiot.
>>Michael Moore is in the entertainment industry.
>>People who take him seriously are just not living in the real world.
>>His rants and views are no different than the Daley Show on the Comedy
>>Channel.
>
>
> Tell it to the Limbaugh fans.

I am Limbaugh fan. Moore is a bomb thrower and is quite good at it. I
just ignore him. The Daily Show I try to catch as much as possible,
it's hillarious. And while Jon Stewart is a lefty you get on his show
because you do something stupid, there's plenty of that to go around.
Always will be.

[Dan Luke]

"john smith" wrote:

> What is to be said?
> Let's not overlook the obvious, Michael Moore is an idiot.
> Michael Moore is in the entertainment industry.

And a pathologically ambitious blabbermouth.

Nevertheless, he makes a couple of telling points about the
Commander-in-Chief, who had his head up his ass for three days, then
made a photo op tour of the coast, complete with stops at sites
temporarily dressed up to look like vigorous recovery efforts were
underway.

> People who take him seriously are just not living in the real world.
> His rants and views are no different than the Daley Show on the Comedy
> Channel.

Or O'Reilly or Coulter or Limbaugh. They're *all* self-promoting media
jaybirds whom no one should take seriously. Many people do though, as
can be seen so often in this newsgroup. The Daily Show at least doesn't
pretend to be anything but comedy.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[sfb]

Are Moore does is show his ignorance is assigning responsibilities and
on delegating authorities in large organizations work. The President
signed the disaster declarations last week before Katrina hit the Gulf
coast. Apparently, Moore and the rest of the wacko left think the
entire US government is micromanaged by the President who retains his
full authorities regardless of where he happens to be.

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "john smith" wrote:
>
>> What is to be said?
>> Let's not overlook the obvious, Michael Moore is an idiot.
>> Michael Moore is in the entertainment industry.
>
> And a pathologically ambitious blabbermouth.
>
> Nevertheless, he makes a couple of telling points about the
> Commander-in-Chief, who had his head up his ass for three days, then
> made a photo op tour of the coast, complete with stops at sites
> temporarily dressed up to look like vigorous recovery efforts were
> underway.
>
>> People who take him seriously are just not living in the real world.
>> His rants and views are no different than the Daley Show on the
>> Comedy Channel.
>
> Or O'Reilly or Coulter or Limbaugh. They're *all* self-promoting
> media jaybirds whom no one should take seriously. Many people do
> though, as can be seen so often in this newsgroup. The Daily Show at
> least doesn't pretend to be anything but comedy.
>
> --
> Dan
> C172RG at BFM
>

[Rich Lemert]

sfb wrote:
> Are Moore does is show his ignorance is assigning responsibilities and
> on delegating authorities in large organizations work. The President
> signed the disaster declarations last week before Katrina hit the Gulf
> coast. Apparently, Moore and the rest of the wacko left think the
> entire US government is micromanaged by the President who retains his
> full authorities regardless of where he happens to be.
>

It doesn't really matter whether the President has any direct
"responsibility" for the situation in New Orleans - this happened
on his watch, so he's responsible for how it's handled. He may have -
and in fact probably does - delegate _authority_ for emergency
management, but you can't delegate responsibility. (Ask any US Navy
commander - who's career often depends quite literally on the 19 year-
old that's 'driving' his ship not running into anything.)

[sfb]

Never said the President wasn't responsible. Moore is saying the
President personally was not doing anything to directly help.

"Rich Lemert" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> sfb wrote:
>> Are Moore does is show his ignorance is assigning responsibilities
>> and on delegating authorities in large organizations work. The
>> President signed the disaster declarations last week before Katrina
>> hit the Gulf coast. Apparently, Moore and the rest of the wacko
>> left think the entire US government is micromanaged by the President
>> who retains his full authorities regardless of where he happens to
>> be.
>>
>
> It doesn't really matter whether the President has any direct
> "responsibility" for the situation in New Orleans - this happened
> on his watch, so he's responsible for how it's handled. He may have -
> and in fact probably does - delegate _authority_ for emergency
> management, but you can't delegate responsibility. (Ask any US Navy
> commander - who's career often depends quite literally on the 19 year-
> old that's 'driving' his ship not running into anything.)
>

[W P Dixon]

You have a point,
But it sure seems no one wants to put that load of responsibility on the
Mayor of New Orleans , nor the Governor of Louisiana,....and the
responsibility really did lie with them first. The city and the State
dropped the ball first. The Fed response was not enough, hopefully that will
continue to get fixed. But the Governor of LA's running of the entire
situation shows an extreme lack of any kind of leadership for that office.
And that statement is said with no political bias of anykind, because I do
not know anything about the Gov of LA! R or D, man or woman, white black
hispanic I don't know. What I do know is the person should not be in charge
of a small town, much less running a State.
You use a great analogy of the sailor steering the ship. Well notice how
the responsibility falls on the commander of the ship. It does not fall on
the Commanding Officer of the Fleet, nor the Secretary of the Navy, nor the
Commander in Chief. Before fingers are pointed in the direction of the
President , we have to point them at the local and State officials,..there
failures made this alot worse than it had to be. Those failures also have
made it worse for any type of relief effort.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft strutural mech
>
> "Rich Lemert" > wrote in message
>> It doesn't really matter whether the President has any direct
>> "responsibility" for the situation in New Orleans - this happened
>> on his watch, so he's responsible for how it's handled. He may have -
>> and in fact probably does - delegate _authority_ for emergency
>> management, but you can't delegate responsibility. (Ask any US Navy
>> commander - who's career often depends quite literally on the 19 year-
>> old that's 'driving' his ship not running into anything.)
>>
>
>

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article et>,
Rich Lemert > wrote:

> sfb wrote:
> > Are Moore does is show his ignorance is assigning responsibilities and
> > on delegating authorities in large organizations work. The President
> > signed the disaster declarations last week before Katrina hit the Gulf
> > coast. Apparently, Moore and the rest of the wacko left think the
> > entire US government is micromanaged by the President who retains his
> > full authorities regardless of where he happens to be.
> >
>
> It doesn't really matter whether the President has any direct
> "responsibility" for the situation in New Orleans - this happened
> on his watch, so he's responsible for how it's handled. He may have -
> and in fact probably does - delegate _authority_ for emergency
> management, but you can't delegate responsibility. (Ask any US Navy
> commander - who's career often depends quite literally on the 19 year-
> old that's 'driving' his ship not running into anything.)


No -- it starts with the mayor of New Orleans, then the governor of
Louisiana, THEN the President!

The mayor should have asked the governor to declare martial law -- AND
put the school busses and their drivers on duty to provide evacuation,
rathe than parking the busses where they would end up 10 feet under
water.

The governor should have (and has the authority) declared martial law
and called out the LA National Guard to keep order. She chose, instead,
to balame the President for not doing her duty.