Katrina fall-out

[Jay Honeck]

I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?

Just in the last couple of years (after paying out billions to re-build
homes along the Mississippi -- again) these two entities have wised up and
essentially prohibited building homes and businesses in flood zones.

Seems like a good idea...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

We all hear ya Jay. Alot of the damage is from flooding and thats
"NOT" covered under a homeowners policy but from the Feds. How much do
ya want to bet the Ins companies will be crying poor mouth and wanting
to raise premiums tomorrow. On a different subject,, all the looters
need to be lined up and run over with a slow moving steam roller. If I
was a business owner in New Orleans there would be a pile of bodies the
cops would have to crawl over to get me to fill out a police report.


Ben Haas
www.haaspowerair.com


Jay Honeck wrote:
> I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
> FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
> sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?
>
> Just in the last couple of years (after paying out billions to re-build
> homes along the Mississippi -- again) these two entities have wised up and
> essentially prohibited building homes and businesses in flood zones.
>
> Seems like a good idea...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[bdl]

You'd probably have Police officers in the pile as well since it
appears that maybe some of them are joining in on the looting as well:

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050830150050234

[Guy Elden Jr]

The people looting for food and water - I'm ok with. The people looting
for fancy clothes, jewelry, etc, I'm all with the original poster on.

--
Guy

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

>I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
>FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
>sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?

No matter what common sense restrictions are enacted, developers will
buy enough politicians to see them removed. We have seen this time and
time again here on the Florida, Alabama and Mississippi coasts.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:13:26 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in
<W1iRe.295446$_o.49447@attbi_s71>::

>I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
>FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
>sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?

I can understand how your computer malfunctions might be obliquely
construed as aviation related, on-topic, for this newsgroup, but I
completely fail to see how the subject of this article differs from
obnoxious spam. Or has this newsgroup become Jay's sandbox?

[Jim Burns]

> We all hear ya Jay. Alot of the damage is from flooding and thats
> "NOT" covered under a homeowners policy but from the Feds. How much do
> ya want to bet the Ins companies will be crying poor mouth and wanting
> to raise premiums tomorrow.

We were just talking about that with our insurance agent this morning.
Obviously, some of the area is in a flood zone, so no insurance company
other than the FEDs will cover flood damage. But a lot of the damage, such
as blown out windows, roof damage, and water damage due to rain, isn't
caused from the flood. So these people will have to fight with their
adjusters over what is covered and what isn't, so there still will be huge
claims filed and the insurance companies will be crying poor mouth and will
raise premiums.

I think that would be the worst part. I think I could actually handle my
house being destroyed better than I could handle having to fight with the
insurance adjuster over what part was from the flood and what part was from
wind/rain.

Jim

[john smith]

bdl wrote:
> You'd probably have Police officers in the pile as well since it
> appears that maybe some of them are joining in on the looting as well:
>
> http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050830150050234

Good quotes:

“When they say take what you need, that doesn’t mean an f-ing TV,” the
officer shouted to a looter. “This is a hurricane, not a free-for-all.”

Sandra Smith of Baton Rouge walked through the parking lot with a
12-pack of Bud Light under each arm.
“I came down here to get my daughters,” she said, “but I can’t find
them.”

Toni Williams, 25, packed her trunk with essential supplies, such as
food and water, but said mass looting disgusted and frightened her.
“I didn’t feel safe. Some people are going overboard,” she said.

Inside the store, one woman was stocking up on make-up. She said she
took comfort in watching police load up their own carts.
“It must be legal,” she said. “The police are here taking stuff, too.”
(Staff writers Doug MacCash and Keith Spera assisted in this story.)

[john smith]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> I can understand how your computer malfunctions might be obliquely
> construed as aviation related, on-topic, for this newsgroup, but I
> completely fail to see how the subject of this article differs from
> obnoxious spam. Or has this newsgroup become Jay's sandbox?

Gee, Larry, is that the pot I hear calling the kettle black?

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:W1iRe.295446$_o.49447@attbi_s71...
>I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
>FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
>sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?
>
> Just in the last couple of years (after paying out billions to re-build
> homes along the Mississippi -- again) these two entities have wised up and
> essentially prohibited building homes and businesses in flood zones.
>
> Seems like a good idea...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Let's keep in mind that a good part of New Orleans was built before
insurance companies told us what we can and can not do.

What I don't understand is why the insurance companies let them keep
building houses on the sides of cliffs in California.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:09:38 GMT, john smith > wrote in
>::

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>> I can understand how your computer malfunctions might be obliquely
>> construed as aviation related, on-topic, for this newsgroup, but I
>> completely fail to see how the subject of this article differs from
>> obnoxious spam. Or has this newsgroup become Jay's sandbox?
>
>Gee, Larry, is that the pot I hear calling the kettle black?

I'll take that response as your agreement with my assessment.

[sfb]

A) Who said they are insured?

B) Government decide what is built where not the insurance company.

C) For a sufficient premium, most anything could be insured.

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:RQjRe.6899
>
> What I don't understand is why the insurance companies let them keep
> building houses on the sides of cliffs in California.
>

[Ash Wyllie]

Jay Honeck opined

>I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
>FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
>sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?

Insurance companies figured this out some time ago. The feds are a bit slower.

>Just in the last couple of years (after paying out billions to re-build
>homes along the Mississippi -- again) these two entities have wised up and
>essentially prohibited building homes and businesses in flood zones.

No need to enact an another law, just end the Federal Flood Insurance program.

>Seems like a good idea...





-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
> FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
> sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?

New Orleans was above sea level when they started building there.

In any case, you seem to be completely blind to the way insurance is supposed to
work. Insurance companies aren't banned from insuring things that are likely (or
even certain to be) destroyed. Nor should they be. Responsible insurance
companies simply set their premiums such that, on the average, they will have
made a profit off each building by the time it is destroyed. That profit doesn't
even have to come completely from the premiums -- insurance companies invest those.

Now, having the government subsidize insurance premiums is certainly a
questionable policy. I suppose the argument is that it is beneficial to the
people in general to do so. Personally, I'm not so sure.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[john smith]

>>Just in the last couple of years (after paying out billions to re-build
>>homes along the Mississippi -- again) these two entities have wised up and
>>essentially prohibited building homes and businesses in flood zones.

> No need to enact an another law, just end the Federal Flood Insurance program.


What was it that was done in North Carolina after the series of
hurricanes a few years ago?

Did the Feds say no more aid for damaged/destroyed structures?

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"sfb" > writes:

> A) Who said they are insured?
>
> B) Government decide what is built where not the insurance company.

Zoning and such controls what is possible. But, unless you're paying
cash for your entire building process, the people you're borrowing
money from also get a say. Most of them insist on insurance as a
condition of the loan. And it seems completely reasonable (and also
properly libertarian) for insurance companies to get to decide what
things they'll write coverage on.

> C) For a sufficient premium, most anything could be insured.

Sure, but the premium may be larger than the cost of building the
replacement, so it's not very useful.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

[sfb]

Surprise, surprise, but many folks building on the beach or hillsides
have buckets and buckets of money, pay cash without blinking an eye, and
think nothing of going naked if they can't get insurance especially
since the land is often worth more than the building.

"David Dyer-Bennet" > wrote in message
...
> "sfb" > writes:
>
>> A) Who said they are insured?
>>
>> B) Government decide what is built where not the insurance company.
>
> Zoning and such controls what is possible. But, unless you're paying
> cash for your entire building process, the people you're borrowing
> money from also get a say. Most of them insist on insurance as a
> condition of the loan. And it seems completely reasonable (and also
> properly libertarian) for insurance companies to get to decide what
> things they'll write coverage on.
>
>> C) For a sufficient premium, most anything could be insured.
>
> Sure, but the premium may be larger than the cost of building the
> replacement, so it's not very useful.
> --
> David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
> RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/>
> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

[Blueskies]

Please post this as the OT topic that it is...


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:W1iRe.295446$_o.49447@attbi_s71...
>I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will FINALLY wake up to the fact that building
>permanent structures below sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?
>
> Just in the last couple of years (after paying out billions to re-build homes along the Mississippi -- again) these
> two entities have wised up and essentially prohibited building homes and businesses in flood zones.
>
> Seems like a good idea...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-08-31, > wrote:
> We all hear ya Jay. Alot of the damage is from flooding and thats
> need to be lined up and run over with a slow moving steam roller. If I
> was a business owner in New Orleans there would be a pile of bodies the
> cops would have to crawl over to get me to fill out a police report.

If I were a business owner in New Orleans, I'd be abandoning ship and
setting up in a completely new city. To wait on NO to be open for
business again means you'll have gone out of business.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Jay Honeck]

>>I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
>>FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
>>sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?
>
> I can understand how your computer malfunctions might be obliquely
> construed as aviation related, on-topic, for this newsgroup, but I
> completely fail to see how the subject of this article differs from
> obnoxious spam. Or has this newsgroup become Jay's sandbox?

Don't you think it's foolhardy to build hangars, airports, aircraft
manufacturing companies (Piper?), homes and businesses in areas that are
virtually guaranteed to be destroyed by hurricanes?

I mean, it's not like there is a shortage of available land in this country.

I see these pleas for help on TV, and I see these people living in raw
sewage in the Super Dome, and I watch the same three black kids shown
looting New Orleans over and over on CNN (man, are they dead, or what?
Everyone in America can ID those kids!), and all I can think is:

Why the hell were they there? Everyone in America knew that New Orleans --
and everything for 100 miles on each side -- was about to be blasted by
Katrina.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> Why the hell were they there? Everyone in America knew that New Orleans --
> and everything for 100 miles on each side -- was about to be blasted by
> Katrina.

Jay, many didn't have the economic means to escape the storm, nor a place
to which to escape. That area is about the poorest part of the US.

--
Peter
























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[Dave Stadt]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:13:26 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote in
> <W1iRe.295446$_o.49447@attbi_s71>::
>
> >I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
> >FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
> >sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?
>
> I can understand how your computer malfunctions might be obliquely
> construed as aviation related, on-topic, for this newsgroup, but I
> completely fail to see how the subject of this article differs from
> obnoxious spam. Or has this newsgroup become Jay's sandbox?

I'd much rather it become Jay's sandbox than your septic tank.

[Dave Stadt]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
> > Why the hell were they there? Everyone in America knew that New
Orleans --
> > and everything for 100 miles on each side -- was about to be blasted by
> > Katrina.
>
> Jay, many didn't have the economic means to escape the storm, nor a place
> to which to escape. That area is about the poorest part of the US.
>
> --
> Peter

And many stayed because they knew it would probably be a free for all.
Based on the news footage the cops are the worst of the lot.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:25:53 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in
<R7qRe.79145$084.55689@attbi_s22>::

>Don't you think it's foolhardy to ...

Personally, I think the off-topic articles tend to drive away those
who expect to find aviation related information and discussion in
rec.aviation.piloting; I'm referring to original articles here, not
follup articles (It's probably futile to attempt to constrain follup
discussion). If you choose to dilute the appropriate content by
posting articles that lack aviation relevance, let alone 'piloting'
relevance, your action reduces the signal-to-noise ratio, and drives
away those potential participants who may wish to participate in more
serious piloting discussion and provide relevant on-topic content, in
my opinion.

I know you have met many of the readers of this newsgroup, and you
want to discuss your feelings about off-topic matters with them, but
the world is on the party-line, so to speak. Like most marketers, you
only consider your agenda. Deliberately posting off-topic is rude and
inconsiderate; think about it.

The choice is ours. We can homogenize the newsgroup's content until
it's an unrecognizable Spam like product, or we can try to confine our
non-follup articles to on-topic subjects.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:05:33 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
wrote in >::

>I'd much rather it become Jay's sandbox than your septic tank.

I guess I expect to much from fellow aviators. :-(

[john smith]

>>Why the hell were they there? Everyone in America knew that New Orleans --
>>and everything for 100 miles on each side -- was about to be blasted by
>>Katrina.

> Jay, many didn't have the economic means to escape the storm, nor a place
> to which to escape. That area is about the poorest part of the US.

I noted from the footage that most had not missed many meals.

[Peter R.]

john smith > wrote:

> I noted from the footage that most had not missed many meals.

You really shouldn't get all of your post-secondary education from the
evening news.

When I was sixteen I worked at a grocery store on the fringe of a poor
section of a city. There were a lot of welfare recipients who shopped at
this store to buy their weekly groceries.

I witnessed many of these folks spending US gov't money on very poor food
choices. Couple that with the fact that most of these folks get absolutely
zero exercise and it doesn't take a superb imagination to understand why
many look the way they do.

--
Peter
























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[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:

JH> Why the hell were they there?

Ah, finally we see an example of "conservative compassion."

They're there because they're there. No fricking place is safe,
Jay. Next time some huge blizzard shuts down the mid-west for days or
weeks I'll remember your answer. Next time a tornado rips through
I'll ask, "why the hell were you living there?"

I mean ****, Jay. Life is 100% fatal. What's the point? Why eat
breakfast? You'll just be hungry again at lunch. It's all fricking
pointless.

[john smith]

Bob Fry wrote:
> Ah, finally we see an example of "conservative compassion."
> They're there because they're there. No fricking place is safe,
> Jay. Next time some huge blizzard shuts down the mid-west for days or
> weeks I'll remember your answer. Next time a tornado rips through
> I'll ask, "why the hell were you living there?"
> I mean ****, Jay. Life is 100% fatal. What's the point? Why eat
> breakfast? You'll just be hungry again at lunch. It's all fricking
> pointless.

Bob, how much money has been spent on the south to recover from the
repeated hurricane damage?

How much money has been spent on the midwest from blizzard, flood and
tornado recovery?

My perception is hundreds of billions in the south vice tens of billions
for the midwest.

The midwest tax base is steadily shrinking do to loss of jobs to other
locals. Money repeatedly spent to hurricane damaged infrastructure in
the south siphons money away from repairing the crumbling midwest
infrastructure even once.

I don't mind my tax dollars going where needed, but to repeatedly spend
money on the same things says that the money is not being spent correctly.

[Jay Honeck]

> When I was sixteen I worked at a grocery store on the fringe of a poor
> section of a city. There were a lot of welfare recipients who shopped at
> this store to buy their weekly groceries.
>
> I witnessed many of these folks spending US gov't money on very poor food
> choices. Couple that with the fact that most of these folks get
> absolutely
> zero exercise and it doesn't take a superb imagination to understand why
> many look the way they do.

America is the only country in the world with fat poor people.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> JH> Why the hell were they there?
>
> Ah, finally we see an example of "conservative compassion."

???

Let's see, Jim Cantori (Sp?) on the Weather Channel told 'em...

Their State Governments told 'em....

CNN told 'em...

Fox News told 'em...

How many people have to tell these dumb asses to GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE
when there is a Level 5 hurricane bearing down on them, before they actually
listen?

> They're there because they're there. No fricking place is safe,
> Jay. Next time some huge blizzard shuts down the mid-west for days or
> weeks I'll remember your answer. Next time a tornado rips through
> I'll ask, "why the hell were you living there?"

Blizzards are fairly commonplace here, and no reason to fear. If anything,
they're kinda fun.

Unfortunately, tornados are tiny, and cannot be forecast with any degree of
accuracy. They're like meteorites -- highly destructive, and totally
unpredictable.

Bottom line: If I could sit here in Iowa, watching on TV as this big ol' bag
of Katrina whoop-ass bore inexorably down on the Gulf Coast, why couldn't
the people who actually LIVE THERE do the same thing?

I would have been in my plane/van/car/whatever, aimed north...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[W P Dixon]

It was one heck of a show of the power of THE OCEAN though wasn't it Jay. ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:1xtRe.320308$xm3.164023@attbi_s21...
>> JH> Why the hell were they there?
>>
>> Ah, finally we see an example of "conservative compassion."
>
> ???
>
> Let's see, Jim Cantori (Sp?) on the Weather Channel told 'em...
>
> Their State Governments told 'em....
>
> CNN told 'em...
>
> Fox News told 'em...
>
> How many people have to tell these dumb asses to GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE
> when there is a Level 5 hurricane bearing down on them, before they
> actually listen?
>
>> They're there because they're there. No fricking place is safe,
>> Jay. Next time some huge blizzard shuts down the mid-west for days or
>> weeks I'll remember your answer. Next time a tornado rips through
>> I'll ask, "why the hell were you living there?"
>
> Blizzards are fairly commonplace here, and no reason to fear. If
> anything, they're kinda fun.
>
> Unfortunately, tornados are tiny, and cannot be forecast with any degree
> of accuracy. They're like meteorites -- highly destructive, and totally
> unpredictable.
>
> Bottom line: If I could sit here in Iowa, watching on TV as this big ol'
> bag of Katrina whoop-ass bore inexorably down on the Gulf Coast, why
> couldn't the people who actually LIVE THERE do the same thing?
>
> I would have been in my plane/van/car/whatever, aimed north...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> I would have been in my plane/van/car/whatever, aimed north...

Right. Like the guy with one leg that had to be carried for blocks to get into
the Superdome. How far north you reckon he would've gotten?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Rich Lemert]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> JH> Why the hell were they there?
>>
>
> How many people have to tell these dumb asses to GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE
> when there is a Level 5 hurricane bearing down on them, before they actually
> listen?
>
>
> Bottom line: If I could sit here in Iowa, watching on TV as this big ol' bag
> of Katrina whoop-ass bore inexorably down on the Gulf Coast, why couldn't
> the people who actually LIVE THERE do the same thing?
>
> I would have been in my plane/van/car/whatever, aimed north...

You are making several assumptions here that are not completely
justifiable. The first is that these people did not listen to the
warnings. There's a difference between wanting to get out of Dodge,
and being able to do so. This is also reflected in the assumption
indicated by your last statement - the assumption that these people
had a "plane/van/car/whatever" that they could take north. For a lot
of people in the city, the best they can afford is the public bus or
streetcar system.

And where are they going to go, even if they could go somewhere.
New Orleans is one of those places where you're a newcomer if your
family only goes back five generations, and where a relative is
"distant" because he lives on the other side of town. These people
don't have relatives they can stay with in other parts of the country
because their relatives are in the city with them - and have been for
many years. Staying in a motel is out of the question - when you're
living day-to-day you just can't afford the luxury.

There's also an emotional aspect to leaving that you, accustomed
as you are to travelling routinely throughout the country, won't
understand. A lot of these people have never been more than 25-30 miles
from the home they were raised in. They may be in harm's way, but
it's a familiar place. Even a lot of the middle-class inhabitants of the
city can't understand how someone could move so far away (like maybe
150 miles) from everything they grew up with and all their friends and
family. After all, if you're that far away aren't you in a different
country?

What you're doing is projecting your background onto people whose
background is nothing like yours. New Orleans is not Iowa, and people's
attitudes there are veru different from what you're used to. The
decisions you _think_ you would make might seem like the only rational
decisions, but the decisions the people in New Orleans made were just
as rational - for them. In most cases, it boils down to doing the best
you can when you don't have any options.

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> America is the only country in the world with fat poor people.

And a hell of a lot of very fat middle class and wealthy people, too.
Laziness transcends socioeconomic classes.

Regarding the poor, the US gov't feeds its poor but allows them to choose
their foods. Fried pork rinds and sugar cereal are often chosen over
broccoli and fruit.

Additionally, since inexpensive cars are ubiquitous (that is, up until the
recent rise in fuel prices) and mass transit available to most, there is
absolutely no opportunity for many of these folks to elevate their
heartrates, unlike other countries where cycling and walking for the
necessities of life are the only forms of transportation for the poor.

--
Peter
























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[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "js" == john smith > writes:

js> My perception is hundreds of billions in the south vice tens
js> of billions for the midwest.

js> The midwest tax base is steadily shrinking do to loss of jobs
js> to other locals. Money repeatedly spent to hurricane damaged
js> infrastructure in the south siphons money away from repairing
js> the crumbling midwest infrastructure even once.

And this is for Jay: can't you show, just once, even one day after a
major disaster, some normal human compassion?

Of course there shouldn't be a major city 4 feet below sea level or
whatever it is. There shouldn't be all sorts of things. But as
someone who lives in California--the Midwest's ATM machine--I know all
about paying for other people's stupid decisions. It's damn ironic
for someone from the Midwest, the red-ink and red-state heartland, to
lecture us on where to live and sucking precious tax dollars.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:
JH> America is the only country in the world with fat poor people.

It's the only country with so many fat people, period.

And that has a lot more to do with the huge fraction of processed
foods and fast food restaurants with grossly oversized proportions,
than anything else.

[Newps]

George Patterson wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>
>> I would have been in my plane/van/car/whatever, aimed north...
>
>
> Right. Like the guy with one leg that had to be carried for blocks to
> get into the Superdome. How far north you reckon he would've gotten?

With a ride to the bus station and a three day headstart? All the way
to Iowa.

[Newps]

Peter R. wrote:

> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>
>>America is the only country in the world with fat poor people.
>
>
> And a hell of a lot of very fat middle class and wealthy people, too.
> Laziness transcends socioeconomic classes.
>
> Regarding the poor, the US gov't feeds its poor but allows them to choose
> their foods. Fried pork rinds and sugar cereal are often chosen over
> broccoli and fruit.

You completely missed the point. Our poor people aren't poor compared
to the rest of the world.

[George Patterson]

Newps wrote:
>
> With a ride to the bus station and a three day headstart? All the way
> to Iowa.

With what money?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Peter R.]

Newps > wrote:

> You completely missed the point.

After watching a lot of the news footage over the last few days, I took his
words a bit more literally.

> Our poor people aren't poor compared to the rest of the world.

This thread is not comparing our poor to the rest of the world. This
thread started when Jay questioned why so many people stayed behind.

--
Peter
























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[George Patterson]

Peter R. wrote:
>
> This thread is not comparing our poor to the rest of the world. This
> thread started when Jay questioned why so many people stayed behind.

Well, lots of them stayed behind because they weren't allowed to leave. There's
a substantial prison population camping out with their guards on one of the
elevated highways. They're just now starting to evacuate the hospitals.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Montblack]

("Bob Fry" wrote)
[snip]
> But as someone who lives in California--the Midwest's ATM machine--I know
> all
> about paying for other people's stupid decisions. It's damn ironic
> for someone from the Midwest, the red-ink and red-state heartland, to
> lecture us on where to live and sucking precious tax dollars.


Huh?
....and huh?
........and huh?


Montblack

[Sylvain]

Rich Lemert wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> I would have been in my plane/van/car/whatever, aimed north...
> You are making several assumptions ...

<did cut a lot of very good points>

what worries me in this whole mess (I mean, in addition to
watching it all happen and feeling pretty darn powerless at
doing anything about it except for sending a token donation
to the Red Cross) is that: this thing didn't happen
as a surprise; unlike the tsunami victims, there was at
least a 48 hours warning; since 9/11, there has been a lot
of talk about disaster preparedness, and publicized exercises,
and gesticulations about home land security and all that
sort of things; yet, when the s* hits the fan, with advanced
notice (a courtesy that we shouldn't expect from the bad
guys -- or the next tsunami for that matter, a recent tsunami
alert in California was given *one hour* after the thing was
supposed to hit the coast), well, we end up with a massive
humanitarian disaster like any third world country which we
used to watch on tv feeling so much safer... this is quite
humbling indeed.

--Sylvain

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-08-31, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Why the hell were they there? Everyone in America knew that New Orleans --
> and everything for 100 miles on each side -- was about to be blasted by
> Katrina.

Not everyone had a means of getting out of New Orleans. Many of those
who stayed had their feet as their only form of transport. They had a
choice - stay and ride it out in the Superdome or their homes, or
perhaps walk and get no more than 20 miles and be guaranteed to be
*without shelter* when the storm hit.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-09-01, Bob Fry > wrote:
>>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:
> JH> America is the only country in the world with fat poor people.
>
> It's the only country with so many fat people, period.

Don't worry, apparently Britain is only 7 years behind the US for
obesity rates! So you're in good company...

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-09-01, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Bottom line: If I could sit here in Iowa, watching on TV as this big ol' bag
> of Katrina whoop-ass bore inexorably down on the Gulf Coast, why couldn't
> the people who actually LIVE THERE do the same thing?
>
> I would have been in my plane/van/car/whatever, aimed north...

It would have to be 'whatever' because tens of thousands of New Orleans
residents DO NOT own cars and there aren't enough buses to go around.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[john smith]

Rich Lemert wrote:
> You are making several assumptions here that are not completely
> justifiable. The first is that these people did not listen to the
> warnings. There's a difference between wanting to get out of Dodge,
> and being able to do so. This is also reflected in the assumption
> indicated by your last statement - the assumption that these people
> had a "plane/van/car/whatever" that they could take north. For a lot
> of people in the city, the best they can afford is the public bus or
> streetcar system.

That's a fault of the local government. Where are all the City of New
Orleans public transit buses?

> And where are they going to go, even if they could go somewhere.
> New Orleans is one of those places where you're a newcomer if your
> family only goes back five generations, and where a relative is
> "distant" because he lives on the other side of town. These people
> don't have relatives they can stay with in other parts of the country
> because their relatives are in the city with them - and have been for
> many years. Staying in a motel is out of the question - when you're
> living day-to-day you just can't afford the luxury.

Translation: they are on the federal, state and local dole. They have no
incentive to leave.

> There's also an emotional aspect to leaving that you, accustomed
> as you are to travelling routinely throughout the country, won't
> understand. A lot of these people have never been more than 25-30 miles
> from the home they were raised in. They may be in harm's way, but
> it's a familiar place. Even a lot of the middle-class inhabitants of the
> city can't understand how someone could move so far away (like maybe
> 150 miles) from everything they grew up with and all their friends and
> family. After all, if you're that far away aren't you in a different
> country?

Translation: they are ignorant and uneducated, incapable of logical
reasoning? Stay alive or feel good? Hmmm... what should I do?

[Dave Stadt]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Bob Fry" wrote)
> [snip]
> > But as someone who lives in California--the Midwest's ATM machine--I
know
> > all
> > about paying for other people's stupid decisions. It's damn ironic
> > for someone from the Midwest, the red-ink and red-state heartland, to
> > lecture us on where to live and sucking precious tax dollars.
>
>
> Huh?
> ...and huh?
> .......and huh?
>
>
> Montblack

Don't worry it's just west coast mumbo jumbo.

[john smith]

Dylan Smith wrote:
> It would have to be 'whatever' because tens of thousands of New Orleans
> residents DO NOT own cars and there aren't enough buses to go around.

100 city buses each carrying 75 people 200 miles inland could relocate
65,000 people in three days, distributing them so as not to cause an
undue burden on any one geographic are and resources.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-09-01, john smith > wrote:
> Dylan Smith wrote:
>> It would have to be 'whatever' because tens of thousands of New Orleans
>> residents DO NOT own cars and there aren't enough buses to go around.
>
> 100 city buses each carrying 75 people 200 miles inland could relocate
> 65,000 people in three days, distributing them so as not to cause an
> undue burden on any one geographic are and resources.

The math doesn't work out for that.
The roads were jam packed leaving New Orleans, with traffic moving very
slowly. 80% of the population was already in their cars, and the
freeways were choked.
A contraflow was set up on major routes, so the return trip
would have had to have been made on more minor routes. Average speeds
for the city buses would have been 15 mph at best from sitting in
traffic for hours followed by a relatively slow run (city buses don't
tend to have a particularly high speed due to their normal usage
patterns) once they were in the clear.

What 100 city buses could do in a non-emergency situation when the
freeways had normal traffic flows is totally irrelevant to what they can
do when every major route is running at parking lot speeds.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Jay Honeck]

>> There's also an emotional aspect to leaving that you, accustomed
>> as you are to travelling routinely throughout the country, won't
>> understand. A lot of these people have never been more than 25-30 miles
>> from the home they were raised in. They may be in harm's way, but
>> it's a familiar place. Even a lot of the middle-class inhabitants of the
>> city can't understand how someone could move so far away (like maybe
>> 150 miles) from everything they grew up with and all their friends and
>> family. After all, if you're that far away aren't you in a different
>> country?
>
> Translation: they are ignorant and uneducated, incapable of logical
> reasoning? Stay alive or feel good? Hmmm... what should I do?

Thank you. I couldn't have said it better.

What some people call "tradition" and "the comfort of staying near home"
many of us call "stupid" and "ignorant".

Those people died for NOTHING.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[OtisWinslow]

You must be a Socialist. Steal from one and give to another.


"Guy Elden Jr" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The people looting for food and water - I'm ok with. The people looting
> for fancy clothes, jewelry, etc, I'm all with the original poster on.
>
> --
> Guy
>

[sfb]

The challenge getting folks on the bus three days in advance is an
exercise left to the reader.

Friday morning, Katrina was a cat 1 just south of Naples, Florida some
600 miles from New Orleans. The west coast of Florida was still on
hurricane watches and warnings so motivating anybody in New Orleans to
evacuate would have been difficult.

"john smith" > wrote in message
.. .
> Dylan Smith wrote:
>> It would have to be 'whatever' because tens of thousands of New
>> Orleans
>> residents DO NOT own cars and there aren't enough buses to go around.
>
> 100 city buses each carrying 75 people 200 miles inland could
> relocate 65,000 people in three days, distributing them so as not to
> cause an undue burden on any one geographic are and resources.

[Jay Honeck]

>>> I would have been in my plane/van/car/whatever, aimed north...
>>
>>
>> Right. Like the guy with one leg that had to be carried for blocks to get
>> into the Superdome. How far north you reckon he would've gotten?

George, the people in the Superdome were the *smart* ones.

I'm not talking about them. I'm referring to folks who -- in the face of
overwhelming evidence of impending doom -- decided to "sit it out" in homes
along the Mississippi and Alabama coastlines. They were underneath a giant
bull's eye that everyone in the world could see on live TV -- yet they chose
(and yes, it *was* a choice) to "leave it in the Lord's hands." (That's a
direct quote from a woman I heard on CNN several days ago...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Trent Moorehead]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:1xtRe.320308$xm3.164023@attbi_s21...
> > JH> Why the hell were they there?
> >
> > Ah, finally we see an example of "conservative compassion."
>
> ???
>
> Let's see, Jim Cantori (Sp?) on the Weather Channel told 'em...
>
> Their State Governments told 'em....
>
> CNN told 'em...
>
> Fox News told 'em...
>
> How many people have to tell these dumb asses to GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE
> when there is a Level 5 hurricane bearing down on them, before they
actually
> listen?

I said the same thing at first, but I've learned a bit since then.

1. It wasn't a category 5 until pretty much the last minute. It took even
the forecasters by surprise.

2. These folks have been through some serious storms in the past, including
Camille. Old timers there remember Camille and stayed put because they felt
nothing could be worse than that storm. They were very wrong, but they have
been on the winning side of this bet so many times since Camille.

3. NO is very very poor. This affects what and how folks do things. Really
poor folks don't hardly ever go ANYWHERE. They walk to the grocery store,
post office etc. Especially the elderly (who lived through Camille--see
point no. 2) It's not foremost in their mind to jump in their car and get
out. Hell, there's a good chance they don't have a car! If you don't believe
me, go to a grocery store in a poor section of town. You'll see shopping
carts all over the place from where people push their carts home.

4. Even if they could get somewhere, where would they go with little money?
Who would they stay with? When all your family lives in NO, and you don't
have much money, you have few options.

Even middle class folks are in serious trouble. They evacuated, but their
houses were leveled. I saw a family on TV who was living in their car in
front of a CVS pharmacy. There are countless stories like this playing out
all over the gulf coast right now. It is terrible.

Regardless of why people stayed in NO, they are there and we need to help
them. They have lost literally everything they have. Pointing our fingers at
the vicitms right now is not helping.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Jay Honeck]

> And this is for Jay: can't you show, just once, even one day after a
> major disaster, some normal human compassion?

I show compassion privately, and with my check-book.

On an aviation newsgroup, where we discuss things in more scientific,
logical terms (I hope!), I express outrage and disbelief.

They are not mutually exclusive.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> It's the only country with so many fat people, period.
>
> And that has a lot more to do with the huge fraction of processed
> foods and fast food restaurants with grossly oversized proportions,
> than anything else.

Clearly you've missed the point.

Or, more likely, simply ignored something you apparently wish to deny -- so
let me spell it out for you:

In America -- by comparison to the rest of the world -- there are no poor
people. What we call "poor" here would be rich beyond measure in many
parts of world.

Now, on the other hand, here in the Midwest, in hundreds of dying farm
communities, there are plenty of people living in aching poverty rather than
shame themselves by living on the government dole. Pride still lives in
this part of the world, and I have known many people who would die before
asking for help.

But that doesn't change the fact that -- if they so choose (and, yes, it
*is* a choice) -- in America the poor need not do without.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Flyingmonk]

I was wondering how long it would be before one of you OT crie babies
would start crying again.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[sfb]

I'm going to catch some crap for doubting the wisdom of a pilot, but
even the smartest of us do what others think weird. There was a poster
who moved his plane to Dothan, Alabama which is 160 miles east of
Mobile. My immediate question was why not fly due west into Texas since
these monsters tend to move north and east.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:jHDRe.321253
>
> George, the people in the Superdome were the *smart* ones.
>
> I'm not talking about them. I'm referring to folks who -- in the face
> of overwhelming evidence of impending doom -- decided to "sit it out"
> in homes along the Mississippi and Alabama coastlines. They were
> underneath a giant bull's eye that everyone in the world could see on
> live TV -- yet they chose (and yes, it *was* a choice) to "leave it in
> the Lord's hands." (That's a direct quote from a woman I heard on CNN
> several days ago...)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> In America -- by comparison to the rest of the world -- there are no poor
> people. What we call "poor" here would be rich beyond measure in many
> parts of world.

Apparently you have never visited an American Indian reservation. Poor on
some of these reservations would definitely be considered poor in other
parts of the world.

Jay, you really need to put down those rose-colored glasses of yours.


--
Peter
























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[Flyingmonk]

Now, on the other hand, here in the Midwest, in hundreds of dying farm
communities, there are plenty of people living in aching poverty rather
than
shame themselves by living on the government dole. Pride still lives
in
this part of the world, and I have known many people who would die
before
asking for help.


But that doesn't change the fact that -- if they so choose (and, yes,
it
*is* a choice) -- in America the poor need not do without.


This is the kind of person my dad is and raised me to be.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Jay Honeck]

> Not everyone had a means of getting out of New Orleans. Many of those
> who stayed had their feet as their only form of transport.

I don't buy it.

I've worked with and around more poor people than probably anyone else on
this newsgroup. Almost without exception, the very first thing a poor,
inner city family buys, after arriving in town -- before a bed, before
clothing, before toiletries (but after booze, cigarettes, and a big, loud
stereo) -- is an old, POS car. They would pool their checks right after
Father's Day (the First of the month, when the government checks used to
arrive -- the happiest day of the month, which was the only time the
neighborhood men were seen) and go buy a 15 year old used car.

On the other hand, as I understand it, welfare recipients now receive
government ATM cards, so perhaps they all don't receive money on "The First"
anymore? Without this form of "enforced savings", perhaps you're right?

In any event, it is clear that a significant proportion of the coastal
population paid no heed to the warnings -- and met an untimely demise.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Flyingmonk]

Why don't you atrt your own rec.aviation.piloting.moderated?

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Flyingmonk]

Hey George!

He still had one leg, and what happened to his crutch or Humaround?
Where's his car? There are double amputees who run competitively with
springs in place of lower legs and feet.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > Translation: they are ignorant and uneducated, incapable of logical
> > reasoning? Stay alive or feel good? Hmmm... what should I do?
>
> Thank you. I couldn't have said it better.
>
> What some people call "tradition" and "the comfort of staying near home"
> many of us call "stupid" and "ignorant".
>
> Those people died for NOTHING.

David Brooks has a good column today (9/1) in the NYT about how great
natural disasters have a way of kicking over certain rocks.

One of these is that in many of our cities you will find a hardened
underclass population that is not recognizably American. New Orleans,
for all its French Quarter charms, has always seemed more like Rio de
Janeiro where one can travel from the peak of glamour to the most
desperate poverty imaginable for a few dollars' taxi fare.

Living in the oh-so-civilized city of Boston I'd love to think with my
Yankee arrogance that such a thing would never, never happen up here,
but I can get in my car and drive to Mattapan (aka Murderpan) where
you'll see the same faces as in New Orleans, just not quite as many of
them.

I've been a hard right-winger as long as I've cared about politics, so
I don't think this is just a matter of racism or more education
spending or anything like that. There have always been slums and
ghettos in this country but they used to be waystations where
immigrants spent one generation at most before moving into the lower
middle class. In fact this has (and is) still happening today with
Vietnamese, Laotians, Eastern Europeans, etc. just as it once did for
Irish and Italians.

But, I'm going to name it here, this has not happened with black
Americans, or more properly I should say that it has not happened for
too many of them. This isn't about simple racism anymore- I've ridden
with too many African cab drivers who tell me "what a wonderful country
this is, where a man who works hard can do anything" to believe that.
One of my college roommates, who grew up on welfare in Dayton, Ohio
(another rough place) laughed at "all you white kids from Connecticut
who think they understand a damn thing about what really goes on out
there."

There is some deeper disfunction here in a society that produces images
like the ones we are seeing down in New Orleans. The fact that it has
taken this long to impose some sort of order is part of it, but that's
just window-dressing. The world most of us live in, this simply would
never happen. You'd never load up your truck from your neighbor's
house. Even now there are hundreds of people with boats lined up to go
out and look for survivors, all purely volunteers. Buying my coffee
this morning in Old Saybrook, CT I overheard a few volunteer firemen
lining up flatbed trucks from local truckers to bring all the equipment
and people they could spare down to NO, 1300 miles away. I suspect if
the government put the call out for airplanes, we'd turn the skies
black with Cessnas and Pipers pouring in. This is the America we know.

I don't have any easy answers, as we've tried shoveling money at this
problem before with spectacularly awful results. Civilizations are not
maintained by their levees but by their citizens, and we are not
running on all cylinders.

Over and out,
-cwk.

[Jay Honeck]

> Regardless of why people stayed in NO, they are there and we need to help
> them. They have lost literally everything they have. Pointing our fingers
> at
> the vicitms right now is not helping.

And help them we shall.

No one is pointing fingers at the victims -- we're discussing the stupidity
of man on an aviation newsgroup.

Those two actions are not mutually exclusive, by the way. We can help
rebuild *and* admonish. In fact, in large degree, that's the history of
mankind, and (sadly) the only way we humans ever seem to learn anything.

Step One: Build house on beach
Step Two: Watch house swallowed by sea.
Step Three: Rebuild?

At some point the revelation must come, no?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> In America -- by comparison to the rest of the world -- there are no poor
>> people. What we call "poor" here would be rich beyond measure in many
>> parts of world.
>
> Apparently you have never visited an American Indian reservation. Poor on
> some of these reservations would definitely be considered poor in other
> parts of the world.

American Indian reservations are abominations. Why in the world any Native
American chooses (and, yes, again, it *is* a choice) to live on them is a
complete mystery to me.

And don't give me the old saw about how it's "their land". Many
reservations are far from ancestral lands, and the bottom line is this: If
their land (or their businesses, or their jobs) don't work for them, it's
time to move on. Maybe even assimilate into modern society. Perhaps give
up old traditions that don't work for them anymore.

Just like the rest of us.

(But, of course, in reality your example doesn't work, since -- if you
listen to N.A. activists -- reservations are sovereign nations, entirely
separate from America.)

And now, for some aviation content: The looters in New Orleans are SHOOTING
at rescue helicopters!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> This is the kind of person my dad is and raised me to be.

Mine, too.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> But, I'm going to name it here, this has not happened with black
> Americans, or more properly I should say that it has not happened for
> too many of them. This isn't about simple racism anymore- I've ridden
> with too many African cab drivers who tell me "what a wonderful country
> this is, where a man who works hard can do anything" to believe that.
> One of my college roommates, who grew up on welfare in Dayton, Ohio
> (another rough place) laughed at "all you white kids from Connecticut
> who think they understand a damn thing about what really goes on out
> there."

At the University of Iowa we are blessed with the occasional visiting
African professor. The University hospital also gets a fair number of
visiting doctors from Africa -- and we are occasionally able to house them
in comfort at the inn.

I've become friendly with several, and have two personal friends from Zaire.
(One of whom escaped the last revolution dressed as a woman.) All, without
exception, have told me the *exact* same thing. In fact, these very black
men and women have displayed more overt "racism" toward American Blacks than
any white folks I've ever met. They display utter contempt and disdain for
people born into such wealth who continue to show no interest in personal
advancement.

America is slowly waking up to the disaster of our underclass.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > But, I'm going to name it here, this has not happened with black
> > Americans, or more properly I should say that it has not happened for
> > too many of them. This isn't about simple racism anymore- I've ridden
>
> At the University of Iowa we are blessed with the occasional visiting
> African professor. The University hospital also gets a fair number of
> visiting doctors from Africa -- and we are occasionally able to house them
> in comfort at the inn.
>
> I've become friendly with several, and have two personal friends from Zaire.
> (One of whom escaped the last revolution dressed as a woman.) All, without
> exception, have told me the *exact* same thing. In fact, these very black
> men and women have displayed more overt "racism" toward American Blacks than
> any white folks I've ever met. They display utter contempt and disdain for
> people born into such wealth who continue to show no interest in personal
> advancement.

Drawing sharp lines in this area is so tricky. I am a hug believer in
personal responsibility, but at some point you have to concede a social
failure as well. Sure, lock up the criminals, and throw away the key;
black crime harms black victims twice as much as it harms white
victims. But when you hear that something around 50% of black men under
the age of 25 have done some kind of jail time, something larger is
wrong.

> America is slowly waking up to the disaster of our underclass.

Yes, and this is where I break with the left on "root causes." No
question there are social issues to be addressed but what, and how?
This article is a bit technical but hits the key points:

http://www.city-journal.com/html/15_3_black_family.html

I was typing up a good why-the-left-is-dumb rant in here, but I'm
walking away from it because I'd like to think that maybe the tragedy
of watching a city go mad will shock us out of the usual
I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I partisan grandstanding that accompanies
any debate these days. Doesn't mean I'm ready to pour money into things
that we've tried before and watched fail but it does mean giving up on
placing blame. As Ronald Reagan was fond of saying, "there's no limit
to what you can accomplish when you don't care who gets the credit."
The Right has often been behind the curve on diagnosing to the
existence of a problem in our cities while the Left has often
prescribed the wrong medicine. So what, water under the bridge
(tasteless pun not intended). We're all Americans today and that's what
counts.

-cwk.

[Chris]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:cMERe.80425$084.44486@attbi_s22...
>
> And now, for some aviation content: The looters in New Orleans are
> SHOOTING at rescue helicopters!

They are just exercising their constitutional right to bear arms;-)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4205074.stm

[Chris]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:atDRe.80341$084.15014@attbi_s22...
> Thank you. I couldn't have said it better.
>
> What some people call "tradition" and "the comfort of staying near home"
> many of us call "stupid" and "ignorant".
>
> Those people died for NOTHING.
> --

Jay, you are my hero, so perfect, so right in everything you say, you even
surpass Jesus in your wisdom.

[Chris]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:NDERe.321322$xm3.97573@attbi_s21...
>> Regardless of why people stayed in NO, they are there and we need to help
>> them. They have lost literally everything they have. Pointing our fingers
>> at
>> the vicitms right now is not helping.
>
> And help them we shall.
>
> No one is pointing fingers at the victims -- we're discussing the
> stupidity of man on an aviation newsgroup.
>

It seems to more about discussing the stupidity of a man on an aviation
newsgroup

[RST Engineering]

It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper to round up as many military
vehicles to form a human convoy to pack everybody a few hundred miles away
befor it hit the fan than paying to pick up mangled bodies afterwards.

Oh, wait, I forgot. Most of the military vehicles are keeping democracy
safe in a country that doesn't WANT us there.

How could I forget?

Jim


"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:IevRe.12899$LK.9312@trndny09...
> Newps wrote:
>>
>> With a ride to the bus station and a three day headstart? All the way to
>> Iowa.
>
> With what money?
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Rick]

Bob Fry wrote in message ...
>>>>>> "js" == john smith > writes:
>
> js> My perception is hundreds of billions in the south vice tens
> js> of billions for the midwest.
>
> js> The midwest tax base is steadily shrinking do to loss of jobs
> js> to other locals. Money repeatedly spent to hurricane damaged
> js> infrastructure in the south siphons money away from repairing
> js> the crumbling midwest infrastructure even once.
>
>And this is for Jay: can't you show, just once, even one day after a
>major disaster, some normal human compassion?
>
>Of course there shouldn't be a major city 4 feet below sea level or
>whatever it is. There shouldn't be all sorts of things. But as
>someone who lives in California--the Midwest's ATM machine--I know all
>about paying for other people's stupid decisions. It's damn ironic
>for someone from the Midwest, the red-ink and red-state heartland,

Jay lives in Berkely by the Cornfield, the Athens of the Midwest. Actually,
that's "Upper Midwest". Iowa City is a Deep Blue spot in a Very Blue county
in the Quite Blue half of Iowa. The Upper Midwest is Bluish Purple
Heartland. And what conservatism there is is probably very different from
you may think of as conservative.

>to lecture us on where to live and sucking precious tax dollars.

Sucking tax dollars is ok if they go to people who vote for Democrats but
not for people who vote for Republicans, I guess. That's compassion for some
liberals.

BTW, my politics lean a bit left, in case you're wondering. After spending
about 25 years in Iowa and the next 25 in and around Chicago, I think Iowa
conservatives generally do a better job than Chicago liberals at the stuff
liberals say is compassion.

Now to the off-topic at hand. Maybe someone can figure out how to use the
world's biggest silt transportion system to fill in New Orleans, and they
can rebuild it above sea level. That will put Iowa's main export to good
use. Maybe Iowa can even tax the topsoil.

Jay, I do agree with the folks who have said there were large numbers of
people who simply had no means of leaving, but I think the city needed to
have better evacuation plans in place.

- Rick

[Rick]

RST Engineering wrote in message >...
>It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper to round up as many military
>vehicles to form a human convoy to pack everybody a few hundred miles away
>befor it hit the fan than paying to pick up mangled bodies afterwards.
>
>Oh, wait, I forgot. Most of the military vehicles are keeping democracy
>safe in a country that doesn't WANT us there.
>
>How could I forget?

I'll bet there could have been better solutions, and I'll bet that there
actually are enough military vehicles. I simply think there wasn't enough
planning and solutions in place.

- Rick

[john smith]

>>And now, for some aviation content: The looters in New Orleans are
>>SHOOTING at rescue helicopters!

> They are just exercising their constitutional right to bear arms;-)

Which they looted from the WalMart, according to the news reports!

[john smith]

Rick wrote:
> I'll bet there could have been better solutions, and I'll bet that there
> actually are enough military vehicles. I simply think there wasn't enough
> planning and solutions in place.

It sure makes one wonder where all those hundreds of billions of
Homeland Security tax dollars are going?

Imagine if this had been a real disaster?

[Stubby]

RST Engineering wrote:
....
> Oh, wait, I forgot. Most of the military vehicles are keeping democracy
> safe in a country that doesn't WANT us there.
>
Nearly all Iraqis want us there. The insurgent anachists are the ones
that don't.

[Mike Rapoport]

"john smith" > wrote in message
. ..
> Rick wrote:
>> I'll bet there could have been better solutions, and I'll bet that there
>> actually are enough military vehicles. I simply think there wasn't enough
>> planning and solutions in place.
>
> It sure makes one wonder where all those hundreds of billions of Homeland
> Security tax dollars are going?
>

Keeping nail clippers off airplanes.

Mike
MU-2

[Darrel Toepfer]

George Patterson wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:

>> I would have been in my plane/van/car/whatever, aimed north...
>
> Right. Like the guy with one leg that had to be carried for blocks to
> get into the Superdome. How far north you reckon he would've gotten?

Well the storm went north, kinda. As it turns out, you'd be safer
pointing yourself west...

[Mike Rapoport]

"Rick" > wrote in message
...
> RST Engineering wrote in message >...
>>It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper to round up as many military
>>vehicles to form a human convoy to pack everybody a few hundred miles away
>>befor it hit the fan than paying to pick up mangled bodies afterwards.
>>
>>Oh, wait, I forgot. Most of the military vehicles are keeping democracy
>>safe in a country that doesn't WANT us there.
>>
>>How could I forget?
>
> I'll bet there could have been better solutions, and I'll bet that there
> actually are enough military vehicles. I simply think there wasn't enough
> planning and solutions in place.
>
> - Rick
>
>

It is difficult to evacuate people who don't want to go regardless of
resources availible.

Mike
MU-2

[Pixel Dent]

In article <6BDRe.7684$__1.2678@trnddc07>, "sfb" > wrote:

> The challenge getting folks on the bus three days in advance is an
> exercise left to the reader.
>
> Friday morning, Katrina was a cat 1 just south of Naples, Florida some
> 600 miles from New Orleans. The west coast of Florida was still on
> hurricane watches and warnings so motivating anybody in New Orleans to
> evacuate would have been difficult.
>

You beat me to my thoughts. If you go through the NOAA archives you'll
see that even at noon on Saturday there was a > 5% it would strike
either Cedar Key, FL or Galveston, TX. The chance of it passing within
65 nm of NO at that point was calculated as only about 20% (admittedly
it was at the top of the list at 20%). I don't think anyone outside a
Usenet heel digging contest would seriously propose evacuating 20
million people every time a cat 1 storm wanders into the gulf.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Rich Lemert wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:

>> I would have been in my plane/van/car/whatever, aimed north...

> You are making several assumptions here that are not completely
> justifiable. The first is that these people did not listen to the
> warnings. There's a difference between wanting to get out of Dodge,
> and being able to do so. This is also reflected in the assumption
> indicated by your last statement - the assumption that these people
> had a "plane/van/car/whatever" that they could take north. For a lot
> of people in the city, the best they can afford is the public bus or
> streetcar system.

Hindsight being as good as it gets, the powers that be should have used
the public transportation to get as many out as possible. I see lots of
buses (city & school) underwater. Some of the effected areas took their
firetrucks and got them out of harms way. We had a dozen or so staying
locally in hotels. Could they have moved the 100,000 that are stranded
there now, maybe. Some people won't leave no matter what, Dan Luke and I
seem to be from that lineage. I live in a proven home (at least a half
dozen hurricanes and as many tornadoes, direct hits and near misses) and
have it well equipped for the long haul. These people aren't in that
situation...

[Darrel Toepfer]

Dylan Smith wrote:

> What 100 city buses could do in a non-emergency situation when the
> freeways had normal traffic flows is totally irrelevant to what they can
> do when every major route is running at parking lot speeds.

16 hour drive from New Orleans to Houston according to a namesake I
frequently communicate with from there. Course they didn't need to take
them that far, but any the city buses could have removed, would have
been more than doing nothing until now with imported buses...

[Chris]

"john smith" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>And now, for some aviation content: The looters in New Orleans are
>>>SHOOTING at rescue helicopters!
>
>> They are just exercising their constitutional right to bear arms;-)
>
> Which they looted from the WalMart, according to the news reports!

Safety measure, hell there are people with guns out there who might want the
food that's been looted too.

[sfb]

Must be the scenic route as Houston is something like 350 miles on I-10.

I-10. I-59, and I-55 were one way out bound so getting busses back would
be a challenge.

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> Dylan Smith wrote:
>
>> What 100 city buses could do in a non-emergency situation when the
>> freeways had normal traffic flows is totally irrelevant to what they
>> can
>> do when every major route is running at parking lot speeds.
>
> 16 hour drive from New Orleans to Houston according to a namesake I
> frequently communicate with from there. Course they didn't need to
> take them that far, but any the city buses could have removed, would
> have been more than doing nothing until now with imported buses...

[Arnold Sten]

john smith wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
>> I'll bet there could have been better solutions, and I'll bet that there
>> actually are enough military vehicles. I simply think there wasn't enough
>> planning and solutions in place.
>
>
> It sure makes one wonder where all those hundreds of billions of
> Homeland Security tax dollars are going?
>
> Imagine if this had been a real disaster?
Do mean to say that this hurricane was not a real disaster?

[JohnH]

Bob Fry wrote:
>>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:
>> America is the only country in the world with fat poor people.
>
> It's the only country with so many fat people, period.
>
> And that has a lot more to do with the huge fraction of processed
> foods and fast food restaurants with grossly oversized proportions,
> than anything else.

This from a man named "Fry"! ;^)

[sfb]

Once they turn north, hurricanes usually move north and east. The ones
into Mexico and south Texas don't make the turn.

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "sfb" > wrote in message
> news:sZDRe.7691$__1.3192@trnddc07...
>> I'm going to catch some crap for doubting the wisdom of a pilot, but
>> even the smartest of us do what others think weird. There was a
>> poster
>> who moved his plane to Dothan, Alabama which is 160 miles east of
>> Mobile. My immediate question was why not fly due west into Texas
>> since
>> these monsters tend to move north and east.
>
> The movement you state is in no way a "usually." In this case, the
> trends
> were taking the track more to the west, over time.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[Dan Luke]

"sfb" wrote:
> I'm going to catch some crap for doubting the wisdom of a pilot, but
> even the smartest of us do what others think weird. There was a poster
> who moved his plane to Dothan, Alabama which is 160 miles east of
> Mobile. My immediate question was why not fly due west into Texas
> since these monsters tend to move north and east.

Because I would have had to fly 475 miles to Houston and stay there a
day or two. No need to do that when Dothan was well clear of the
storm's easternmost forecast track and I could rent a car and drive
right back home.

Went back and got the airplane today.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Morgans]

"sfb" > wrote in message news:sZDRe.7691$__1.3192@trnddc07...
> I'm going to catch some crap for doubting the wisdom of a pilot, but
> even the smartest of us do what others think weird. There was a poster
> who moved his plane to Dothan, Alabama which is 160 miles east of
> Mobile. My immediate question was why not fly due west into Texas since
> these monsters tend to move north and east.

The movement you state is in no way a "usually." In this case, the trends
were taking the track more to the west, over time.
--
Jim in NC

[Dan Luke]

"Morgans" wrote:

> True, but this was Cat 5, and in favorable conditions to build, or
> stay the
> same.

Not until late in the game:

HURRICANE KATRINA FORECAST/ADVISORY NUMBER 17
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL122005
1500Z SAT AUG 27 2005

AT 10 AM CDT...1500Z...A HURRICANE WATCH IS IN EFFECT FOR THE
SOUTHEASTERN COAST OF LOUISIANA EAST OF MORGAN CITY TO THE MOUTH OF
THE PEARL RIVER...INCLUDING METROPOLITAN NEW ORLEANS AND LAKE
PONCHARTRAIN. A HURRICANE WATCH MEANS THAT HURRICANE CONDITIONS
ARE POSSIBLE WITHIN THE WATCH AREA...GENERALLY WITHIN 36 HOURS.

A HURRICANE WATCH WILL LIKELY BE REQUIRED FOR OTHER PORTIONS OF THE
NORTHERN GULF COAST LATER TODAY OR TONIGHT. INTERESTS IN THIS AREA
SHOULD MONITOR THE PROGRESS OF KATRINA.

HURRICANE CENTER LOCATED NEAR 24.5N 85.0W AT 27/1500Z
POSITION ACCURATE WITHIN 10 NM

PRESENT MOVEMENT TOWARD THE WEST OR 275 DEGREES AT 6 KT

ESTIMATED MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE 940 MB
EYE DIAMETER 10 NM
MAX SUSTAINED WINDS 100 KT WITH GUSTS TO 120 KT.


> I hope we all have learned something from this. There is no safe
> place, on the coast with a Cat 4 or 5.

By the time Katrina was a Cat. 5, it was too late for total evacuation
of the impact zone.

[Morgans]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote

> The roads were jam packed leaving New Orleans, with traffic moving very
> slowly. 80% of the population was already in their cars, and the
> freeways were choked.
> A contraflow was set up on major routes, so the return trip
> would have had to have been made on more minor routes. Average speeds
> for the city buses would have been 15 mph at best

Hell, bring in the C-17's, and C-5A's and C-130's. Marshall law should have
been declared, all should have been driven out, and transportation provided
for those who needed it. Set up refugee camps at closed military bases, and
all could have lived much more comfortably than they are now.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Pixel Dent" > wrote

>I don't think anyone outside a
> Usenet heel digging contest would seriously propose evacuating 20
> million people every time a cat 1 storm wanders into the gulf.

True, but this was Cat 5, and in favorable conditions to build, or stay the
same. I hope we all have learned something from this. There is no safe
place, on the coast with a Cat 4 or 5.
--
Jim in NC

[Dave Stadt]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
> > In America -- by comparison to the rest of the world -- there are no
poor
> > people. What we call "poor" here would be rich beyond measure in many
> > parts of world.
>
> Apparently you have never visited an American Indian reservation. Poor on
> some of these reservations would definitely be considered poor in other
> parts of the world.
>
> Jay, you really need to put down those rose-colored glasses of yours.
>
>
> --
> Peter

I had not noticed fences around reservations keeping the residents from
leaving and getting a job. Don't the American Indians get more free
government hand outs than any other ethnic group?

[Dave Stadt]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Rick wrote:
> >> I'll bet there could have been better solutions, and I'll bet that
there
> >> actually are enough military vehicles. I simply think there wasn't
enough
> >> planning and solutions in place.
> >
> > It sure makes one wonder where all those hundreds of billions of
Homeland
> > Security tax dollars are going?
> >
>
> Keeping nail clippers off airplanes.
>
> Mike
> MU-2

Don't forget the millions spent on the multicolored green, orange, yellow,
red (or whatever it is) fancy stop light that has the terrorist shaking in
their sandals.

[john smith]

>> What 100 city buses could do in a non-emergency situation when the
>> freeways had normal traffic flows is totally irrelevant to what they can
>> do when every major route is running at parking lot speeds.

> 16 hour drive from New Orleans to Houston according to a namesake I
> frequently communicate with from there. Course they didn't need to take
> them that far, but any the city buses could have removed, would have
> been more than doing nothing until now with imported buses...

What about trains?
Are there rail lines that run into New Orleans?
You can move thousands with boxcars and flatcars and a couple engines.

[john smith]

>>> I'll bet there could have been better solutions, and I'll bet that there
>>> actually are enough military vehicles. I simply think there wasn't
>>> enough planning and solutions in place.

>> It sure makes one wonder where all those hundreds of billions of
>> Homeland Security tax dollars are going?
>> Imagine if this had been a real disaster?

> Do mean to say that this hurricane was not a real disaster?

It wasn't the disaster they were planning for.
The point is that Homeland Security is a joke.
It is a contrived organization to increase the federal buracracy and
funnel billions of tax dollars to contractors.

Reported examples:
- $400/night hotels for contractors that were consultants
- $100,000's for office building artwork and decorations
- $400,000 for a retirement and awards recognition dinner for an
organization that had only been in business for three months.
And that is just what we know about.

[john smith]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> I had not noticed fences around reservations keeping the residents from
> leaving and getting a job. Don't the American Indians get more free
> government hand outs than any other ethnic group?

It's not a free handout, it's the money the Department of Interior
siphoned out of their trust accounts over the last hundred years.

[Montblack]

("Chris" wrote)
>> And now, for some aviation content: The looters in New Orleans are
>> SHOOTING at rescue helicopters!

> They are just exercising their constitutional right to bear arms;-)
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4205074.stm


Hurricane Rodney King ...I shake my head at the area's local, city, state
and federal govt officials more though, WRT those levees ...and about ten
other issues.

It's like the potato famine in Ireland, when do you say 'enough is enough'
and make the decision to leave all that you've ever known? (Now would be a
good time)

Head north, or west, on foot and I'm sure that over a distance of 30-40
miles people will have garden hoses that you can drink from - 15 hour walk
for someone out of shape. Next day walk another 30-40 miles and I bet a
family, or a church, would take you in. I'd take in someone who walked 75
miles over two days!!

Walk another 25 miles the third day - I bet your accommodations would
improve the further away from NO you'd get. By day four you should be able
to catch a ride. To where? I don't know - where do Mexicans go when they
walk across the border? To jobs...

This isn't for everyone, but I would think 10%-20% of the needy refugees(?)
left in the flooded city could make it work for them.

Good luck.


Montblack

[skym]

I'm surprised someone hasn't yet figured out a way to blame this all on
the trial lawyers. They must be somehow responsible.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Chris wrote:

>>Which they looted from the WalMart, according to the news reports!
>
> Safety measure, hell there are people with guns out there who might want the
> food that's been looted too.

My neighbor made a distribution run to Biloxi to the FEMA peoples with 2
transports and his personal car yesterday. The trucks got shot at in
Mississippi because the company name has FOOD in it and didn't stop when
they wanted it to... He said it looks from interstate just as horrible
as it does from the videos of the coast and he said the smell is BAD...

[George Patterson]

RST Engineering wrote:
> It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper to round up as many military
> vehicles to form a human convoy to pack everybody a few hundred miles away
> befor it hit the fan than paying to pick up mangled bodies afterwards.

Yep.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Darrel Toepfer]

sfb wrote:

> Must be the scenic route as Houston is something like 350 miles on I-10.
>
> I-10. I-59, and I-55 were one way out bound so getting busses back would
> be a challenge.

Only the news people run towards a disaster about to happen... Blew
through from Pensicola to Louisiana back in the late 70's or early 80's
while a storm was hitting Dauphin Island, 85mph through the tunnel in
Mobile...

We were the only fools on the road...

Hindsight, should have stayed in north Florida, I-10 was closed for 4
days and we could have collected pay for it...

[George Patterson]

Flyingmonk wrote:
>
> He still had one leg, and what happened to his crutch or Humaround?
> Where's his car?

I don't see a smilie, but I hope you meant one.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Dan Luke]

"skym" wrote:

> I'm surprised someone hasn't yet figured out a way to blame this all
> on
> the trial lawyers. They must be somehow responsible.


No, no, no!

It's the liberal media!

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Almost without exception, the very first thing a poor,
> inner city family buys, after arriving in town -- ....

Well, one thing is that most of these people didn't "arrive in town." They were
born there. People who have families elsewhere do tend to buy cars when they
can. But people who grew up in large cities frequently don't. Most Manhattanites
don't have cars, for example. Hell, when I hit Atlanta in my youth, it was
several months before I bought a car - hitchhiking and public transportation did
me fine.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Darrel Toepfer]

john smith wrote:

> What about trains?
> Are there rail lines that run into New Orleans?
> You can move thousands with boxcars and flatcars and a couple engines.

6 class A rail lines I think the mayor stated...

[Philip S.]

in article R7qRe.79145$084.55689@attbi_s22, Jay Honeck at
wrote on 8/31/05 3:25 PM:


> Why the hell were they there? Everyone in America knew that New Orleans --
> and everything for 100 miles on each side -- was about to be blasted by
> Katrina.

Consider this story that I heard from a caller to a radio show today:

This man had been vacationing in New Orleans with his wife. Last Saturday,
they were told they needed to get out.

All flights were booked. There were no rental cars available. The buses had
stopped running. Desperate, the man scraped together the last of his
cash--about $200--and somehow managed to flag down one of the last taxi cabs
still operating. He and his wife were able to get out of town. Other
tourists were not so lucky. I just saw an AP story quoting a Canadian
tourist saying, "I'm not getting out of here alive".

If tourists couldn't get out, even with plenty of warning, what options do
you think poor people had?

[Darrel Toepfer]

skym wrote:

> I'm surprised someone hasn't yet figured out a way to blame this all on
> the trial lawyers. They must be somehow responsible.

<copied from a lawyer friends email from Dallas>

I know your hearts, in particular, are for lawyers. Think of this...

5,000 - 6,000 lawyers (1/3 of the lawyers in Louisiana) have lost their
offices, their libraries, their computers with all information thereon,
their client files - possibly their clients, as one attorney who
e-mailed me noted. As I mentioned before, they are scattered from
Florida to Arizona and have nothing to return to. Their children's
schools are gone and, optimistically, the school systems in 8
parishes/counties won't be re-opened until after December. They must
re-locate their lives.

Our state supreme court is under some water - with all appellate files
and evidence folders/boxes along with it. The 5th Circuit Court of
Appeals building is under some water - with the same effect. Right now
there may only be 3-4 feet of standing water but, if you think about it,
most files are kept in the basements or lower floors of courthouses.
What effect will that have on the lives of citizens and lawyers
throughout this state and this area of the country? And on the law?

The city and district courts in as many as 8 parishes/counties are under
water, as well as 3 of our circuit courts - with evidence/files at each
of them ruined. The law enforcement offices in those areas are under
water - again, with evidence ruined. 6,000 prisoners in 2 prisons and
one juvenile facility are having to be securely relocated. We already
have over-crowding at most Louisiana prisons and juvenile facilities.
What effect will this have? And what happens when the evidence in their
cases has been destroyed? Will the guilty be released upon the
communities? Will the innocent not be able to prove their innocence?

Our state bar offices are under water. Our state disciplinary offices
are under water - again with evidence ruined. Our state disciplinary
offices are located on Veteran's Blvd. in Metairie. Those of you who
have been watching the news, they continue to show Veteran's Blvd. It's
the shot with the destroyed Target store and shopping center under water
and that looks like a long canal. Our Committee on Bar Admissions is
located there and would have been housing the bar exams which have been
turned in from the recent July bar exam (this is one time I'll pray the
examiners were late in turning them in - we were set to meet in 2 weeks
to go over the results). Will all of those new graduates have to retake
the bar exam?

Two of the 4 law schools in Louisiana are located in New Orleans (Loyola
and Tulane - the 2 private ones that students have already paid about
$8,000+ for this semester to attend). Another 1,000+ lawyers-to-be
whose lives have been detoured. I've contacted professors at both
schools but they can't reach anyone at those schools and don't know the
amount of damage they've taken. Certainly, at least, this semester is
over. I'm trying to reach the Chancellor's at Southern and LSU here in
Baton Rouge to see if there's anything we can do to take in the students
and/or the professors. I think I mentioned before, students from out of
state have been stranded at at least 2 of the other universities in New
Orleans - they're moving up floor after floor as the water rises. Our
local news station received a call from some medical students at Tulane
Medical Center who were now on the 5th floor of the dormitories as the
water had risen. One of them had had a heart attack and they had no
medical supplies and couldn't reach anyone - 911 was busy, local law
enforcement couldn't be reached, they were going through the phone
book and reached a news station 90 miles away!! It took the station
almost 45 minutes to finally find someone with FEMA to try to get in to
them!!

And, then, there are the clients whose files are lost, whose cases are
stymied. Their lives, too, are derailed. Of course, the vast majority
live in the area and that's the least of their worries. But, the New
Orleans firms also have a large national and international client base.
For example, I received an e-mail from one attorney friend who I work
with on some crucial domestic violence (spousal and child) cases around
the nation - those clients could be seriously impacted by the loss, even
temporarily, of their attorney

- and he can't get to them and is having difficulty contacting the many
courts around the nation where his cases are pending. Large corporate
clients may have their files blowing in the wind where the high rise
buildings had windows blown out.

I woke up this morning to the picture of Veteran's Blvd which made me
think of my students who just took the bar. My thoughts wandered from
there to the effect on the Disciplinary Offices. Then my thoughts
continued on. I'm sure I'm still missing a big part of the future
picture. It's just devastating. Can you imagine something of this
dimension in your state?

Southern University Law Center
Baton Rouge, LA 70813

[john smith]

Montblack wrote:
> Hurricane Rodney King ...I shake my head at the area's local, city,
> state and federal govt officials more though, WRT those levees ...and
> about ten other issues.
> It's like the potato famine in Ireland, when do you say 'enough is
> enough' and make the decision to leave all that you've ever known? (Now
> would be a good time)
> Head north, or west, on foot and I'm sure that over a distance of 30-40
> miles people will have garden hoses that you can drink from - 15 hour
> walk for someone out of shape. Next day walk another 30-40 miles and I
> bet a family, or a church, would take you in. I'd take in someone who
> walked 75 miles over two days!!
> Walk another 25 miles the third day - I bet your accommodations would
> improve the further away from NO you'd get. By day four you should be
> able to catch a ride. To where? I don't know - where do Mexicans go when
> they walk across the border? To jobs...
> This isn't for everyone, but I would think 10%-20% of the needy
> refugees(?) left in the flooded city could make it work for them.

Very good analogy, Paul!
Thousands of Mexicans cannot be wrong.
They walk for miles with very little food and water.
And it is amazing how many jobs there are for them.
Just think, if only 50% of those Oleanders struck out on foot, they
would be gainfully employed, food in their bellies and have a roof over
their heads within a week!

[Darrel Toepfer]

Montblack wrote:

> Hurricane Rodney King ...I shake my head at the area's local, city,
> state and federal govt officials more though, WRT those levees ...and
> about ten other issues.
>
> It's like the potato famine in Ireland, when do you say 'enough is
> enough' and make the decision to leave all that you've ever known? (Now
> would be a good time)
>
> Head north, or west, on foot and I'm sure that over a distance of 30-40
> miles people will have garden hoses that you can drink from - 15 hour
> walk for someone out of shape. Next day walk another 30-40 miles and I
> bet a family, or a church, would take you in. I'd take in someone who
> walked 75 miles over two days!!
>
> Walk another 25 miles the third day - I bet your accommodations would
> improve the further away from NO you'd get. By day four you should be
> able to catch a ride. To where? I don't know - where do Mexicans go when
> they walk across the border? To jobs...
>
> This isn't for everyone, but I would think 10%-20% of the needy
> refugees(?) left in the flooded city could make it work for them.
>
> Good luck.

700 refugee students were registered for school in Lafayette parish
today, over 200 here at Eunice high school, 7 in Iota. These are just
the ones that arrived here, after they were told to evacuate...

[Philip S.]

in article 1xtRe.320308$xm3.164023@attbi_s21, Jay Honeck at
wrote on 8/31/05 7:17 PM:

>> JH> Why the hell were they there?
>>
>> Ah, finally we see an example of "conservative compassion."
>
> ???
>
> Let's see, Jim Cantori (Sp?) on the Weather Channel told 'em...
>
> Their State Governments told 'em....
>
> CNN told 'em...
>
> Fox News told 'em...
>
> How many people have to tell these dumb asses to GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE
> when there is a Level 5 hurricane bearing down on them, before they actually
> listen?

You might better direct your anger towards a federal government that had all
the same warnings, all the same information (and probably more), and yet has
STILL not taken control of the situation, FOUR DAYS after disaster struck.

Shoot, Jay, when even the collective might of the United States military and
its assorted agencies are running around with their thumbs up their asses
several days after the fact, is it really appropriate to express outrage at
the victims who are suffering most?

[Morgans]

"Dan Luke" > wrote

> Not until late in the game:
>
> HURRICANE KATRINA FORECAST/ADVISORY NUMBER 17
> NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL122005
> 1500Z SAT AUG 27 2005

Boy, I would have bet money, on this one. It sure seems different looking
back at it.
--
Jim in NC

[Flyingmonk]

Yes George, I was half heartedly joking. ;^)

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[sfb]

You can't be serious? Using boxcars would be too reminiscent of the
Holocaust.

"john smith" > wrote in message news:Y2NRe.61330>
> What about trains?
> Are there rail lines that run into New Orleans?
> You can move thousands with boxcars and flatcars and a couple engines.

[Darrel Toepfer]

john smith wrote:

> Very good analogy, Paul!
> Thousands of Mexicans cannot be wrong.
> They walk for miles with very little food and water.
> And it is amazing how many jobs there are for them.
> Just think, if only 50% of those Oleanders struck out on foot, they
> would be gainfully employed, food in their bellies and have a roof over
> their heads within a week!

But they can't survive on tamales and tortias... Well maybe with some
Tabasco and Tony Chachere's... And beer, lots of Jay's beer...

[Jay Beckman]

"sfb" > wrote in message news:_aPRe.18405$um2.5851@trnddc03...
> You can't be serious? Using boxcars would be too reminiscent of the
> Holocaust.
>
> "john smith" > wrote in message news:Y2NRe.61330>
>> What about trains?
>> Are there rail lines that run into New Orleans?
>> You can move thousands with boxcars and flatcars and a couple engines.

Hardly,

Using railcars to take people TO life is the antithesis of the Holocaust.

Jay B

[john smith]

Philip S. wrote:
> You might better direct your anger towards a federal government that had all
> the same warnings, all the same information (and probably more), and yet has
> STILL not taken control of the situation, FOUR DAYS after disaster struck.
> Shoot, Jay, when even the collective might of the United States military and
> its assorted agencies are running around with their thumbs up their asses
> several days after the fact, is it really appropriate to express outrage at
> the victims who are suffering most?

Stop blaming the federal government!
That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.
State and local governments have become so dependent upon the federal
programs, they cannot think, let alone act on their on.
The City of New Orleans did nothing until the last minute.
The State of Louisana did nothing until after the fact.
The federal government is trying to play catch up.
The City of New Orleans knew what the consequences were.
The State of Lousiana certainly had some idea of the consequences based
on their oversight authority.
Both these government entities dragged their heels waiting for Uncle Sam
to come to their rescue before the fact. The only thing Uncle Sam knew
was that it was going to be bad.

[Jay Beckman]

"john smith" > wrote in message
. ..
> Philip S. wrote:
>
> Stop blaming the federal government!
> That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.
> State and local governments have become so dependent upon the federal
> programs, they cannot think, let alone act on their on.
> The City of New Orleans did nothing until the last minute.
> The State of Louisana did nothing until after the fact.
> The federal government is trying to play catch up.
> The City of New Orleans knew what the consequences were.
> The State of Lousiana certainly had some idea of the consequences based on
> their oversight authority.
> Both these government entities dragged their heels waiting for Uncle Sam
> to come to their rescue before the fact. The only thing Uncle Sam knew was
> that it was going to be bad.

Very well put...

Jay B

[john smith]

sfb wrote:
> You can't be serious? Using boxcars would be too reminiscent of the
> Holocaust.
>
> "john smith" > wrote in message news:Y2NRe.61330>
>
>>What about trains?
>>Are there rail lines that run into New Orleans?
>>You can move thousands with boxcars and flatcars and a couple engines.

Yes, I did realize that, which is why I did not include a reference to
it in my original posting.
The difference being that the boxcars would not be locked in this case
and the conditions at the destinations would be significantly better
than those of the previous reference.
If the passengers are too small minded to realize these differences and
choose not to escape then one has to question their intelligence.
Take the train and live, or stay in New Orleans and suffer or die?
Personal choice determines their fate.

[George Patterson]

sfb wrote:
> You can't be serious? Using boxcars would be too reminiscent of the
> Holocaust.

I doubt that many of the poor in NO remember the holocaust.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[JohnH]

sfb wrote:
> You can't be serious? Using boxcars would be too reminiscent of the
> Holocaust.

Oh pahleeze. I suppose putting them in airplanes would be too reminiscent
of 9/11.

[W P Dixon]

True,
The Feds can not come in until invited by the State Governments, all
kinda goes back to that thing called "States Rights". Myself I believe the
gov of LA did a very poor job of having the State Guard in place. And way
way to few of them.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:yCPRe.62908$Ji4.26510@fed1read03...
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Philip S. wrote:
>>
>> Stop blaming the federal government!
>> That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.
>> State and local governments have become so dependent upon the federal
>> programs, they cannot think, let alone act on their on.
>> The City of New Orleans did nothing until the last minute.
>> The State of Louisana did nothing until after the fact.
>> The federal government is trying to play catch up.
>> The City of New Orleans knew what the consequences were.
>> The State of Lousiana certainly had some idea of the consequences based
>> on their oversight authority.
>> Both these government entities dragged their heels waiting for Uncle Sam
>> to come to their rescue before the fact. The only thing Uncle Sam knew
>> was that it was going to be bad.
>
> Very well put...
>
> Jay B
>

[sfb]

Maybe, but the President Bush's good friends on the left will only be
too happy to explain it to them. The Jesse Jackson's and Al Sharptons of
the world would be all over TV screaming about a lily white government
loading black people on box cars to haul them away from the homes to God
knows where.

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:iPPRe.10783$wE1.1200@trndny01...
> sfb wrote:
>> You can't be serious? Using boxcars would be too reminiscent of the
>> Holocaust.
>
> I doubt that many of the poor in NO remember the holocaust.
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person
> to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Philip S.]

in article , john smith at
wrote on 9/1/05 8:21 PM:

> Philip S. wrote:
>> You might better direct your anger towards a federal government that had all
>> the same warnings, all the same information (and probably more), and yet has
>> STILL not taken control of the situation, FOUR DAYS after disaster struck.
>> Shoot, Jay, when even the collective might of the United States military and
>> its assorted agencies are running around with their thumbs up their asses
>> several days after the fact, is it really appropriate to express outrage at
>> the victims who are suffering most?
>
> Stop blaming the federal government!
> That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.
> State and local governments have become so dependent upon the federal
> programs, they cannot think, let alone act on their on.
> The City of New Orleans did nothing until the last minute.
> The State of Louisana did nothing until after the fact.
> The federal government is trying to play catch up.
> The City of New Orleans knew what the consequences were.
> The State of Lousiana certainly had some idea of the consequences based
> on their oversight authority.
> Both these government entities dragged their heels waiting for Uncle Sam
> to come to their rescue before the fact. The only thing Uncle Sam knew
> was that it was going to be bad.

Terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference--the
current administration ran for re-election less than a year ago on the
premise that they could keep us all safe, that they were better than their
opponents on issues of "homeland security", that when it came to protecting
the homeland, only they could do the job.

Well, John, are they doing the job? Are they keeping the homeland safe? What
if New Orleans had been hit by a terrorist attack? What would your opinion
be of the federal response thus far?

[sfb]

Airplanes have seats and rest rooms which are seldom found in boxcars.

"JohnH" > wrote in message
...
> sfb wrote:
>> You can't be serious? Using boxcars would be too reminiscent of the
>> Holocaust.
>
> Oh pahleeze. I suppose putting them in airplanes would be too
> reminiscent of 9/11.
>

[W P Dixon]

back In The Day,
Marine days that is , they would move us all over the place in "cattle
cars". Yep , behind a big old truck! It was hot and pretty dern miserable
during the summer, but it beat the heck out of walking ! I never really felt
like a steer either. Most of the folks needing that ride out of New Orleans
probably do not have a clue to what the holocaust was. If they knew alittle,
they probably didn't know about the "Death Trains". Remember in the last
survey of Americans, 50% did not know George Washington was the Commanding
General of the Continental Army ;)
Ok OK OK , maybe I did get alittle nervous when we would pass a sign
that said KANSAS CITY...;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"john smith" > wrote in message
.. .
> sfb wrote:
>> You can't be serious? Using boxcars would be too reminiscent of the
>> Holocaust.
>>
>> "john smith" > wrote in message news:Y2NRe.61330>
>>
>>>What about trains?
>>>Are there rail lines that run into New Orleans?
>>>You can move thousands with boxcars and flatcars and a couple engines.
>
> Yes, I did realize that, which is why I did not include a reference to it
> in my original posting.
> The difference being that the boxcars would not be locked in this case and
> the conditions at the destinations would be significantly better than
> those of the previous reference.
> If the passengers are too small minded to realize these differences and
> choose not to escape then one has to question their intelligence.
> Take the train and live, or stay in New Orleans and suffer or die?
> Personal choice determines their fate.

[Earl Grieda]

"Philip S." > wrote in message
...
> in article , john smith at
> wrote on 9/1/05 8:21 PM:
>
> > Philip S. wrote:
> >> You might better direct your anger towards a federal government that
had all
> >> the same warnings, all the same information (and probably more), and
yet has
> >> STILL not taken control of the situation, FOUR DAYS after disaster
struck.
> >> Shoot, Jay, when even the collective might of the United States
military and
> >> its assorted agencies are running around with their thumbs up their
asses
> >> several days after the fact, is it really appropriate to express
outrage at
> >> the victims who are suffering most?
> >
> > Stop blaming the federal government!
> > That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.
> > State and local governments have become so dependent upon the federal
> > programs, they cannot think, let alone act on their on.
> > The City of New Orleans did nothing until the last minute.
> > The State of Louisana did nothing until after the fact.
> > The federal government is trying to play catch up.
> > The City of New Orleans knew what the consequences were.
> > The State of Lousiana certainly had some idea of the consequences based
> > on their oversight authority.
> > Both these government entities dragged their heels waiting for Uncle Sam
> > to come to their rescue before the fact. The only thing Uncle Sam knew
> > was that it was going to be bad.
>
> Terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference
> --the current administration ran for re-election less than a year
> ago on the premise that they could keep us all safe, that they were
> better than their opponents on issues of "homeland security", that
> when it came to protecting the homeland, only they could do the job.
>
> Well, John, are they doing the job? Are they keeping the homeland
> safe? What if New Orleans had been hit by a terrorist attack? What
> would your opinion be of the federal response thus far?
>

Hey. Watch it. Our Fearless Leader cut his vacation short, flew overhead,
and looked out the window. That act of bravery and leadership has inspired
thousands in NO to remain calm, since they now know he is taking charge.

[Darrel Toepfer]

sfb wrote:

> Maybe, but the President Bush's good friends on the left will only be
> too happy to explain it to them. The Jesse Jackson's and Al Sharptons of
> the world would be all over TV screaming about a lily white government
> loading black people on box cars to haul them away from the homes to God
> knows where.

Jesse was in South America, easing tensions...

[Montblack]

("sfb" wrote)
> You can't be serious? Using boxcars would be too reminiscent of the
> Holocaust.


Is it the Holocaust? No. Then what planet are you on???

Feelings are fine until they get in the way of actually solving a problem.
Jeez!!

Rail lines run out of the city - people need to get out of the city. Hmmm?

Hum some Woody Guthrie tunes while reading this if it will help.
<http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Dust_Bowl_Refugee.htm>
<http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Going_Down_The_Road.htm>


Montblack
<http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/My_Daddy_Flies.htm>

[Mike Rapoport]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Pixel Dent" > wrote
>
>>I don't think anyone outside a
>> Usenet heel digging contest would seriously propose evacuating 20
>> million people every time a cat 1 storm wanders into the gulf.
>
> True, but this was Cat 5, and in favorable conditions to build, or stay
> the
> same. I hope we all have learned something from this. There is no safe
> place, on the coast with a Cat 4 or 5.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

If all the money for the Corps of Engineers wasn't sent to Iraq, the
infrastructure around New Orleans could have been improved to the point
where most people could go home now. Smaller hurricanes wouldn't require
any evacuation. Supposedly the cost was under $1B.

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Rapoport]

There are very few routes out of NO that don't start on a (recently
deceased) bridge.

Mike
MU-2
"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Chris" wrote)
>>> And now, for some aviation content: The looters in New Orleans are
>>> SHOOTING at rescue helicopters!
>
>> They are just exercising their constitutional right to bear arms;-)
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4205074.stm
>
>
> Hurricane Rodney King ...I shake my head at the area's local, city, state
> and federal govt officials more though, WRT those levees ...and about ten
> other issues.
>
> It's like the potato famine in Ireland, when do you say 'enough is enough'
> and make the decision to leave all that you've ever known? (Now would be a
> good time)
>
> Head north, or west, on foot and I'm sure that over a distance of 30-40
> miles people will have garden hoses that you can drink from - 15 hour walk
> for someone out of shape. Next day walk another 30-40 miles and I bet a
> family, or a church, would take you in. I'd take in someone who walked 75
> miles over two days!!
>
> Walk another 25 miles the third day - I bet your accommodations would
> improve the further away from NO you'd get. By day four you should be able
> to catch a ride. To where? I don't know - where do Mexicans go when they
> walk across the border? To jobs...
>
> This isn't for everyone, but I would think 10%-20% of the needy
> refugees(?) left in the flooded city could make it work for them.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
> Montblack

[Montblack]

("sfb" wrote)
> Maybe, but the President Bush's good friends on the left will only be too
> happy to explain it to them. The Jesse Jackson's and Al Sharptons of the
> world would be all over TV screaming about a lily white government loading
> black people on box cars to haul them away from the homes to God knows
> where.


Q: ...to God knows where?
A: Dry land and food.

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are both ....idiots.

Many lily white folks rode the rails to a better life during the Dust Bowl
days.

(Great film)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070030/
Emperor of the North Pole (1973)


Montblack

[sfb]

The Corps of Engineers budget is a long running smoke and mirrors
political game where the administration goes low so the Congresscritters
can get the credit for adding stuff the local folks want. The Corps
doesn't think the improvements would have made a difference as Katrina
drove water over the top of the levees undermining the dry side.

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
news:uwQRe.3684
>
> If all the money for the Corps of Engineers wasn't sent to Iraq, the
> infrastructure around New Orleans could have been improved to the
> point where most people could go home now. Smaller hurricanes
> wouldn't require any evacuation. Supposedly the cost was under $1B.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>

[sfb]

Attitudes do change over time. The Dust Bowl was before the Holocaust.
The Swastika was a Native American symbol until the Nazis.

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("sfb" wrote)
>> Maybe, but the President Bush's good friends on the left will only be
>> too happy to explain it to them. The Jesse Jackson's and Al Sharptons
>> of the world would be all over TV screaming about a lily white
>> government loading black people on box cars to haul them away from
>> the homes to God knows where.
>
>
> Q: ...to God knows where?
> A: Dry land and food.
>
> Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are both ....idiots.
>
> Many lily white folks rode the rails to a better life during the Dust
> Bowl days.
>
> (Great film)
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070030/
> Emperor of the North Pole (1973)
>
>
> Montblack

[Rick]

Darrel Toepfer wrote in message
>...
>john smith wrote:
>
>> What about trains?
>> Are there rail lines that run into New Orleans?
>> You can move thousands with boxcars and flatcars and a couple engines.
>
>6 class A rail lines I think the mayor stated...

I don't know exactly where this is, but some of those rail lines have turned
into shipping lines:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/274104

- Rick

[Sylvain]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> This is one point I can't understand .... you (the USA) is able to invade a
> country in a matter of 1 or 2 days (I don't want to argue about *that*
> right now), bring thousands of soldiers from one side of the planet to the
> other one ... but: aren't you able to bring several thousand of soldiers, a
> carrier, etc. down to New Orleans? Let your troops do something useful.

the problem you see, is that when you spend the money/time/resources
to do one thing (like, invading a country), you have to take it out
of some place else...

http://salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2005/08/31/disaster_preparation/index_np.html

--Sylvain

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-09-02, john smith > wrote:
> Stop blaming the federal government!
> That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.
<snip>

If the Federal Government is supposed to have so little involvement,
what's the point of Louisiana being a state of the United States? What's
the point of all those Louisianans income tax that goes to the Federal
government? (the vast majority of their income taxes?)

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Earl Grieda]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> "Morgans" > wrote:
>
> > Hell, bring in the C-17's, and C-5A's and C-130's. Marshall
> > law should have been declared, all should have been driven out,
> > and transportation provided for those who needed it. Set up
> > refugee camps at closed military bases, and all could have
> > lived much more comfortably than they are now.
>
> This is one point I can't understand .... you (the USA) is able
> to invade a country in a matter of 1 or 2 days (I don't want to
> argue about *that* right now), bring thousands of soldiers from
> one side of the planet to the other one ... but: aren't you able
> to bring several thousand of soldiers, a carrier, etc. down to
> New Orleans? Let your troops do something useful.

I'm not a fan of the Iraq war but I can appreciate the logistical side of
going to war. Maybe the invasion only takes a few days, but months of
preparation went into those few days. On the other hand no one is really
preparing for a hurricane like this one.

[Matt Whiting]

Philip S. wrote:
> in article , john smith at
> wrote on 9/1/05 8:21 PM:
>
>
>>Philip S. wrote:
>>
>>>You might better direct your anger towards a federal government that had all
>>>the same warnings, all the same information (and probably more), and yet has
>>>STILL not taken control of the situation, FOUR DAYS after disaster struck.
>>>Shoot, Jay, when even the collective might of the United States military and
>>>its assorted agencies are running around with their thumbs up their asses
>>>several days after the fact, is it really appropriate to express outrage at
>>>the victims who are suffering most?
>>
>>Stop blaming the federal government!
>>That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.
>>State and local governments have become so dependent upon the federal
>>programs, they cannot think, let alone act on their on.
>>The City of New Orleans did nothing until the last minute.
>>The State of Louisana did nothing until after the fact.
>>The federal government is trying to play catch up.
>>The City of New Orleans knew what the consequences were.
>>The State of Lousiana certainly had some idea of the consequences based
>>on their oversight authority.
>>Both these government entities dragged their heels waiting for Uncle Sam
>>to come to their rescue before the fact. The only thing Uncle Sam knew
>>was that it was going to be bad.
>
>
> Terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference--the
> current administration ran for re-election less than a year ago on the
> premise that they could keep us all safe, that they were better than their
> opponents on issues of "homeland security", that when it came to protecting
> the homeland, only they could do the job.

How do you propose that the Feds stop a hurricane? Put up a tall fence?
Protecting the homeland from a hurricane. That is hilarious...

Matt

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> And now, for some aviation content: The looters in New Orleans are SHOOTING
> at rescue helicopters!
>

Ah, isn't it a great country where everbody has the legal right to own guns?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
> FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
> sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?
>

Next: The end of the west coast, since it is in an earthquake area.
Imagine Silicon Valley vanishing in a major quake...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Martin Hotze >
wrote:

> I am not arguing (right now) about your engagement in Iraq ... I am arguing
> why you don't make it happen to bring thousands of soldiers in to New
> Orleans. the first few days are important, not some days after the first
> couple days passed.

1) Equipment and personnel are already enroute. (some are already
there)

2) The US military isn't forward deployed to the US.

3) Disaster recovery isn't a military mission (nor should it be)

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Bob Noel]

In article t>,
"Mike Rapoport" > wrote:

> If all the money for the Corps of Engineers wasn't sent to Iraq,

another source of money could be all the money ****ed away
on failed social programs

>the
> infrastructure around New Orleans could have been improved to the point
> where most people could go home now.

Three words: Environmental impact study

Can't you imagine all the people that would be complaining about
the noise and dust and stuff from the construction near where they live?

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Dan Luke]

"Montblack" wrote:

>> You can't be serious? Using boxcars would be too reminiscent of the
>> Holocaust.
>
>
> Is it the Holocaust? No. Then what planet are you on???
>

Planet Troll.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Darrel Toepfer > wrote:

> skym wrote:
>
> > I'm surprised someone hasn't yet figured out a way to blame this all on
> > the trial lawyers. They must be somehow responsible.
>
> <copied from a lawyer friends email from Dallas>
>
> I know your hearts, in particular, are for lawyers. Think of this...

hopefully those agencies with important files have a disaster recovery
plan for their records (a concept that has been in place for decades)

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Philip S." > wrote:

> Terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference--the
> current administration ran for re-election less than a year ago on the
> premise that they could keep us all safe, that they were better than their
> opponents on issues of "homeland security", that when it came to protecting
> the homeland, only they could do the job.

yeah, fixing a distaster of this magnitude is really a simple thing. Just like
with a TV one-hour drama.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Jay Honeck]

> If all the money for the Corps of Engineers wasn't sent to Iraq, the
> infrastructure around New Orleans could have been improved to the point
> where most people could go home now. Smaller hurricanes wouldn't require
> any evacuation. Supposedly the cost was under $1B.

True (except for the cost, which is low by a factor of ten) -- but
irrelevant.

a) No one wanted to do what was viewed as a "pork barrel" project
b) The projects that had been proposed would have had no impact on the areas
that failed.

(This all from an NPR news report this morning, talking to the Corps of
Engineers)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> I had not noticed fences around reservations keeping the residents from
>> leaving and getting a job. Don't the American Indians get more free
>> government hand outs than any other ethnic group?
>
> It's not a free handout, it's the money the Department of Interior
> siphoned out of their trust accounts over the last hundred years.

True.

And the King of Prussia still owes my ancestors, dammit.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I woke up this morning to the picture of Veteran's Blvd which made me
> think of my students who just took the bar. My thoughts wandered from
> there to the effect on the Disciplinary Offices. Then my thoughts
> continued on. I'm sure I'm still missing a big part of the future
> picture. It's just devastating. Can you imagine something of this
> dimension in your state?

Everything you say is horrible except for the devastation to the government
buildings and records.

I should think you might be ecstatic at this rare opportunity to start the
Louisiana legal system over from scratch. It can't get much worse, and
perhaps you can create a model that works better for the rest of the country
to follow?

(And who were the brain-children that kept your Supreme Court records in a
building that was below sea level -- in a flood plain -- in a hurricane
zone?)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> If tourists couldn't get out, even with plenty of warning, what options do
> you think poor people had?

No, you need to ask that slightly differently. "If tourists couldn't get
out, what options do you think native New Orleaneans (or whatever they are
called) had?"

I'd wager that someone who lived there would have a heckuva lot more "street
knowledge" on how to get out, than a lost tourist would.

As the story develops over time, it's all coming down to this: Those who
knew, and could, got out. Those who didn't -- or didn't care -- stayed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> How many people have to tell these dumb asses to GET THE HELL OUT OF
>> DODGE
>> when there is a Level 5 hurricane bearing down on them, before they
>> actually
>> listen?
>
> You might better direct your anger towards a federal government that had
> all
> the same warnings, all the same information (and probably more), and yet
> has
> STILL not taken control of the situation, FOUR DAYS after disaster struck.
>
> Shoot, Jay, when even the collective might of the United States military
> and
> its assorted agencies are running around with their thumbs up their asses
> several days after the fact, is it really appropriate to express outrage
> at
> the victims who are suffering most?

The Feds must be invited by the governor of any state before they can
react -- period. This is NOT a Federal Government thing until it becomes
apparent that the State cannot handle things.

I am not angry about the situation -- I am incredulous. It's an awful,
horrible mess, and the entire country is going to pay a bitter price for the
stupidity and arrogance of a relative few, starting with:

1. People who thought it was okay to live 20 feet below sea level, next to
an ocean.
2. Government officials who allowed stupid people to build 20 feet below sea
level, next to an ocean.
3. Environmental activists who, through their actions, have left our country
economically ravaged by the loss of a few lousy oil refineries.
4. Able bodied "victims" who, on national TV, shout their anger and contempt
because the "Gubmint" hasn't done enough.
5. Armed gangs of "victims" who are shooting at rescue helicopters.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Next: The end of the west coast, since it is in an earthquake area.
> Imagine Silicon Valley vanishing in a major quake...

Silicon Valley is another perfect example of human arrogance.

Hey -- wait -- I've got it! Let's build a 100 billion dollar
infrastructure on top of a major fault line!

And when (not if) it is destroyed, there will be people begging the Federal
Government to come rebuild it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> And now, for some aviation content: The looters in New Orleans are
>> SHOOTING
>> at rescue helicopters!
>>
>
> Ah, isn't it a great country where everbody has the legal right to own
> guns?

Yes.

But what's that got to do with it? Barbarians will always find weapons.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[W P Dixon]

Yep,
Outlaws don't own guns they steal them. If they could not steal them from
the nearest Wal Mart or what have you they would have stolen them from the
police or where ever else they could. If they could not get guns by stealing
then they would simply use knives or baseball bats ... Thank God my gun is
locked and loaded and I own them all!


Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:PaXRe.323195$xm3.31590@attbi_s21...
>>> And now, for some aviation content: The looters in New Orleans are
>>> SHOOTING
>>> at rescue helicopters!
>>>
>>
>> Ah, isn't it a great country where everbody has the legal right to own
>> guns?
>
> Yes.
>
> But what's that got to do with it? Barbarians will always find weapons.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[John Theune]

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Pixel Dent" > wrote
>>
>>
>>>I don't think anyone outside a
>>>Usenet heel digging contest would seriously propose evacuating 20
>>>million people every time a cat 1 storm wanders into the gulf.
>>
>>True, but this was Cat 5, and in favorable conditions to build, or stay
>>the
>>same. I hope we all have learned something from this. There is no safe
>>place, on the coast with a Cat 4 or 5.
>>--
>>Jim in NC
>>
>
>
> If all the money for the Corps of Engineers wasn't sent to Iraq, the
> infrastructure around New Orleans could have been improved to the point
> where most people could go home now. Smaller hurricanes wouldn't require
> any evacuation. Supposedly the cost was under $1B.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>
Iraq has been a issue for 3 years or so. New Orleans has been behind
those levies for how many years? That infrastructure has been around
how long? What has the state and local goverment done to improve the
capabilites of the area to survice a storm? If you want to complain
about the goverments actions then fine but lets get real and not try to
blame the currant administration for problems that have been know about
for decades.

john

[john smith]

Philip S. wrote:
> Well, John, are they doing the job? Are they keeping the homeland safe? What
> if New Orleans had been hit by a terrorist attack? What would your opinion
> be of the federal response thus far?

Read my previous postings for the answers to those questions.

[W P Dixon]

Jay,
Can't we also say the same is true for the misguided souls who live in
trailer parks in the Midwest? What bright official deemed these things
livable? We don't call them tornado magnets for nothing. Most people in the
country would consider the kid with the big ears playing the banjo on
"Deliverance" to be smarter than people who live in trailers in the Midwest.
Then we have the folks out west that just insist on living where fires
will burn their homes up , or the threat of it , year after year. And there
are the mudslide folks, who just love dropping in on their neighbors..so to
speak. ;) And yep the Let's build my home on the earthquake fault gang!
HMMMMMMM.... think about it, where will we all live ? In pretty much
every part of the country where you build your home, it has it's own little
disaster waiting to happen. You think people in the west and southeast are
strupid for having the threat of hurricanes and earthquakes, and people in
other parts of the country think midwesterners are stupid for living in
Tornado Alley. But we all have to live somewhere. Just have to pick our
"rathers".

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:K7XRe.323186$xm3.141266@attbi_s21...
>>> How many people have to tell these dumb asses to GET THE HELL OUT OF
>>> DODGE
>>> when there is a Level 5 hurricane bearing down on them, before they
>>> actually
>>> listen?
>>
>> You might better direct your anger towards a federal government that had
>> all
>> the same warnings, all the same information (and probably more), and yet
>> has
>> STILL not taken control of the situation, FOUR DAYS after disaster
>> struck.
>>
>> Shoot, Jay, when even the collective might of the United States military
>> and
>> its assorted agencies are running around with their thumbs up their asses
>> several days after the fact, is it really appropriate to express outrage
>> at
>> the victims who are suffering most?
>
> The Feds must be invited by the governor of any state before they can
> react -- period. This is NOT a Federal Government thing until it becomes
> apparent that the State cannot handle things.
>
> I am not angry about the situation -- I am incredulous. It's an awful,
> horrible mess, and the entire country is going to pay a bitter price for
> the stupidity and arrogance of a relative few, starting with:
>
> 1. People who thought it was okay to live 20 feet below sea level, next to
> an ocean.
> 2. Government officials who allowed stupid people to build 20 feet below
> sea level, next to an ocean.
> 3. Environmental activists who, through their actions, have left our
> country economically ravaged by the loss of a few lousy oil refineries.
> 4. Able bodied "victims" who, on national TV, shout their anger and
> contempt because the "Gubmint" hasn't done enough.
> 5. Armed gangs of "victims" who are shooting at rescue helicopters.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[john smith]

>>Stop blaming the federal government!
>>That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.

> If the Federal Government is supposed to have so little involvement,
> what's the point of Louisiana being a state of the United States? What's
> the point of all those Louisianans income tax that goes to the Federal
> government? (the vast majority of their income taxes?)

As a previous posted noted, the federal government cannot come in unless
asked or martial law is declared.
States rights is basic tenant of the US Constitution.

[john smith]

>>I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
>>FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
>>sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?

It is time for the federal government to tell local and state
governments that federal tax dollars will no longer be spent to rebuild
in areas like coastal plains (flooding, storm surge), river valleys
(flooding), earthquake faults (self explanatory), unstable hillsides
(mud slides), etc., which are zoned residential.

[John Theune]

Dylan Smith wrote:

> On 2005-09-02, john smith > wrote:
>
>>Stop blaming the federal government!
>>That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.
>
> <snip>
>
> If the Federal Government is supposed to have so little involvement,
> what's the point of Louisiana being a state of the United States? What's
> the point of all those Louisianans income tax that goes to the Federal
> government? (the vast majority of their income taxes?)
>
My state tax bill is about 40% of my federal bill and if you add the
property tax I pay the state it more like 60% state 40% fed. Local
goverment should be providing more of the service in the front end and
the feds come in afterwards but I'm seeing a lack of pre-planning on the
local parts and now they are throwing up thier hands and saying Feds
come save us. Just as others have said that the storm warning was too
short for people to leave, it's the same problem for the feds. It's not
a wise usage of scarce resources to mobilize the number of people and
equipment that this is going to take on the basis of a storm that MIGHT
grow and MIGHT hit a populated area until your fairly sure where and
when it will hit. That would have been around Friday or Saturday last
week. Now could they have done a better job? Probable so, but there
are a lot of people going as fast as they can to provide aid and
unfortunately it takes some time. It's not very good for the people
that are stuck in NO. I would imagine that on the local level all
across the country that have poor and unable to prepare populations, the
local disaster prep people are looking at thier abilty to evacuate the
poor and barring evacuation how will they feed and house them for the
several days to a week that it will take to bring things in from out of
the area. I seem to recall that in the cold war days they build bomb
shelters and stocked with with supplies on the local level and those
could be used in the event of a natural disaster was well. Perhaps it's
time to try that again.

[Andre]

The truth of the matter is that there is no safe place on earth. Each area
has their own disaster waiting to happen. A few years ago we had the ice
storm in Canada that cut power to Quebec and Ontario, for a couple of months
in some cases, in the middle of winter.

The southern east coast has hurricanes and the west coast, California up to
Alaska, has earthquakes, take your pick.

We do what we can to prepare if we think about it, but most do not. Society
is now too dependant on the govt to help in times of need. Time and
unforseen occurance befall us all.

Andre

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:X9XRe.82236$084.46538@attbi_s22...
> > Next: The end of the west coast, since it is in an earthquake area.
> > Imagine Silicon Valley vanishing in a major quake...
>
> Silicon Valley is another perfect example of human arrogance.
>
> Hey -- wait -- I've got it! Let's build a 100 billion dollar
> infrastructure on top of a major fault line!
>
> And when (not if) it is destroyed, there will be people begging the
Federal
> Government to come rebuild it.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Ash Wyllie]

Dylan Smith opined

>On 2005-09-02, john smith > wrote:
>> Stop blaming the federal government!
>> That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.
><snip>

>If the Federal Government is supposed to have so little involvement,
>what's the point of Louisiana being a state of the United States? What's
>the point of all those Louisianans income tax that goes to the Federal
>government? (the vast majority of their income taxes?)

Good question. As a rule, it costs a state over a dollar in taxes to get a
dollar of federal benefits.


-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[Dave Stadt]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Martin Hotze
>
> wrote:
>
> > I am not arguing (right now) about your engagement in Iraq ... I am
arguing
> > why you don't make it happen to bring thousands of soldiers in to New
> > Orleans. the first few days are important, not some days after the first
> > couple days passed.
>
> 1) Equipment and personnel are already enroute. (some are already
> there)

Already? Get real, it is 5 days after the hurricane and they knew it was
coming several days before that. A full week after they should have been
called up for mobilization they are just now beginning to move.

> 2) The US military isn't forward deployed to the US.

The National Guard is and they have yet to arrive in any quantity.

> 3) Disaster recovery isn't a military mission (nor should it be)

Disaster asistance is a National Guard function yet except for a few that
have been deployed they appear to be sitting at home eating bon bons.

> --
> Bob Noel
> no one likes an educated mule
>

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Philip S. wrote:
> > in article , john smith at
> > wrote on 9/1/05 8:21 PM:
> >
> >
> >>Philip S. wrote:
> >>
> >>>You might better direct your anger towards a federal government that
had all
> >>>the same warnings, all the same information (and probably more), and
yet has
> >>>STILL not taken control of the situation, FOUR DAYS after disaster
struck.
> >>>Shoot, Jay, when even the collective might of the United States
military and
> >>>its assorted agencies are running around with their thumbs up their
asses
> >>>several days after the fact, is it really appropriate to express
outrage at
> >>>the victims who are suffering most?
> >>
> >>Stop blaming the federal government!
> >>That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.
> >>State and local governments have become so dependent upon the federal
> >>programs, they cannot think, let alone act on their on.
> >>The City of New Orleans did nothing until the last minute.
> >>The State of Louisana did nothing until after the fact.
> >>The federal government is trying to play catch up.
> >>The City of New Orleans knew what the consequences were.
> >>The State of Lousiana certainly had some idea of the consequences based
> >>on their oversight authority.
> >>Both these government entities dragged their heels waiting for Uncle Sam
> >>to come to their rescue before the fact. The only thing Uncle Sam knew
> >>was that it was going to be bad.
> >
> >
> > Terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference--the
> > current administration ran for re-election less than a year ago on the
> > premise that they could keep us all safe, that they were better than
their
> > opponents on issues of "homeland security", that when it came to
protecting
> > the homeland, only they could do the job.
>
> How do you propose that the Feds stop a hurricane? Put up a tall fence?
> Protecting the homeland from a hurricane. That is hilarious...
>
> Matt

Homeland Security is leaving because it is "too dangerous." The Feds knew
Katrina was on the way a week ago but they have yet to provide any
significant assistance.

[Ash Wyllie]

Jay Honeck opined

>> Regardless of why people stayed in NO, they are there and we need to help
>> them. They have lost literally everything they have. Pointing our fingers
>> at
>> the vicitms right now is not helping.

>And help them we shall.

>No one is pointing fingers at the victims -- we're discussing the stupidity
>of man on an aviation newsgroup.

>Those two actions are not mutually exclusive, by the way. We can help
>rebuild *and* admonish. In fact, in large degree, that's the history of
>mankind, and (sadly) the only way we humans ever seem to learn anything.

while (Federal Flood Insurance)
{
>Step One: Build house on beach
>Step Two: Watch house swallowed by sea.
>Step Three: Rebuild?
}

>At some point the revelation must come, no?
>--
>Jay Honeck
>Iowa City, IA
>Pathfinder N56993
>www.AlexisParkInn.com
>"Your Aviation Destination"




-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-09-02, Bob Noel > wrote:
> hopefully those agencies with important files have a disaster recovery
> plan for their records (a concept that has been in place for decades)

Sadly, many small businesses simply don't have any kind of disaster
recovery plans nor any offsite backup facility (and if they have offsite
backups, it's only of digital information not paperwork, and is probably
located in the same city)

Most of these businesses are history.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[JohnH]

sfb wrote:
> Airplanes have seats and rest rooms which are seldom found in boxcars.
>

How long would they have been on this efficient means of trasnportation, a
few hours tops?

If this city was flooding (which it does, btw), I would GLADLY and without a
second thought put my family on a boxcar if that was the only means I had to
escape.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

>>And now, for some aviation content: The looters in New Orleans are SHOOTING
>>at rescue helicopters!
>
> Ah, isn't it a great country where everbody has the legal right to own guns?

A local businessman took his boat and went down there to aide in the
rescues. First house with people on it he came to, they pointed guns at
him and wanted to take his boat. He turned around put the boat back on
the trailer and came home...

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Dave Stadt" > wrote:

> > 1) Equipment and personnel are already enroute. (some are already
> > there)
>
> Already? Get real,

yes. Several news reports of USAF special ops at the airport restoring
services there in order to support rescue/recovery/aid operations.
(iirc this was wednesday when I saw the reports).

Plus Navy ships enroute.

> > 2) The US military isn't forward deployed to the US.
>
> The National Guard is and they have yet to arrive in any quantity.

Talk to the state or governer. I was under the impression that Martin
was whining about the feds.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Darrel Toepfer]

Bob Noel wrote:

>>The National Guard is and they have yet to arrive in any quantity.
>
> Talk to the state or governer. I was under the impression that Martin
> was whining about the feds.

A good portion of the LA-NG is in Iraq...

[Mike Rapoport]

There was a plan to improve the whole system including raising the levees to
withstand a Cat 5


Mike
MU-2

"sfb" > wrote in message news:PaRRe.8100$__1.4958@trnddc07...
> The Corps of Engineers budget is a long running smoke and mirrors
> political game where the administration goes low so the Congresscritters
> can get the credit for adding stuff the local folks want. The Corps
> doesn't think the improvements would have made a difference as Katrina
> drove water over the top of the levees undermining the dry side.
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message news:uwQRe.3684
>>
>> If all the money for the Corps of Engineers wasn't sent to Iraq, the
>> infrastructure around New Orleans could have been improved to the point
>> where most people could go home now. Smaller hurricanes wouldn't require
>> any evacuation. Supposedly the cost was under $1B.
>>
>> Mike
>> MU-2
>>
>>
>
>

[Mike Rapoport]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:X9XRe.82236$084.46538@attbi_s22...
>> Next: The end of the west coast, since it is in an earthquake area.
>> Imagine Silicon Valley vanishing in a major quake...
>
> Silicon Valley is another perfect example of human arrogance.
>
> Hey -- wait -- I've got it! Let's build a 100 billion dollar
> infrastructure on top of a major fault line!
>
> And when (not if) it is destroyed, there will be people begging the
> Federal Government to come rebuild it.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"


Silicon Valley is where it is because that it where the brainpower that
fuels it resides.

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Rapoport]

In the case of NO, the city is a vital deepwater port at the mouth of a huge
river that accesses a huge portion of the country. It pretty much has to be
where it is.

Mike
MU-2


"john smith" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>I wonder if the insurance companies (and the federal government) will
>>>FINALLY wake up to the fact that building permanent structures below
>>>sea-level in a hurricane zone is folly?
>
> It is time for the federal government to tell local and state governments
> that federal tax dollars will no longer be spent to rebuild in areas like
> coastal plains (flooding, storm surge), river valleys (flooding),
> earthquake faults (self explanatory), unstable hillsides (mud slides),
> etc., which are zoned residential.

[Mike Rapoport]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article t>,
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote:
>
>> If all the money for the Corps of Engineers wasn't sent to Iraq,
>
> another source of money could be all the money ****ed away
> on failed social programs
>

Yes, except that the money was actually allocated for infrastructure
projects in Iraq.


>>the
>> infrastructure around New Orleans could have been improved to the point
>> where most people could go home now.
>
> Three words: Environmental impact study
>
> Can't you imagine all the people that would be complaining about
> the noise and dust and stuff from the construction near where they live?
>

Actually the people there have been asking for the improvements for years.

Mike
MU-2

[John Clear]

In article et>,
Mike Rapoport > wrote:
>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>news:X9XRe.82236$084.46538@attbi_s22...
>>
>> Silicon Valley is another perfect example of human arrogance.
>>
>> Hey -- wait -- I've got it! Let's build a 100 billion dollar
>> infrastructure on top of a major fault line!
>>
>> And when (not if) it is destroyed, there will be people begging the
>> Federal Government to come rebuild it.
>
>Silicon Valley is where it is because that it where the brainpower that
>fuels it resides.

The 1989 earthquake epicenter was just a few miles from the Silicon
Valley (just a name for the general area). There was some damage,
but most of the buildings were built with earthquakes in mind, and
since then, building codes have been upgraded.

Most of the houses are single story wood frame structures, which
can handle earthquakes fairly well. Plaster and windows may crack,
but the structure will generally stay standing.

A big earthquake will happen, but steps have been taken to minimize
the impact.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> Bob Noel wrote:
>
>>>The National Guard is and they have yet to arrive in any quantity.
>>
>> Talk to the state or governer. I was under the impression that Martin
>> was whining about the feds.
>
> A good portion of the LA-NG is in Iraq...

Yes they are I think the number is about 35%. What's your point? The 65%
that is available is under the command of the Gov. of Louisiana.

[W P Dixon]

The Gov. of LA says 40,000 guardsmen will go into New Orleans to restore
order. Now they go in.....those 40,000 would have made a huge difference.
With the Motor T Division of water buffalos and the presence of those
troops, just about all of the foolishness of getting 10 pairs of Nikes could
have been avoided.
And did you hear the Congressional Black Caucus today???? Of course they
make everything seem like it's just white people letting black people die.
They should be ashamed of themselves. What the Black Caucus leadership needs
to be doing is the same thing that Jesse and Al and the NAACP need to be
doing...calling for their brothers and sisters to act like human beings and
help each other instead of acting like wild animals. When you act like trash
you will be treated like trash no matter what your skin color.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:qA0Se.10485$7f5.5209@okepread01...
>
> "Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Bob Noel wrote:
>>
>>>>The National Guard is and they have yet to arrive in any quantity.
>>>
>>> Talk to the state or governer. I was under the impression that Martin
>>> was whining about the feds.
>>
>> A good portion of the LA-NG is in Iraq...
>
> Yes they are I think the number is about 35%. What's your point? The 65%
> that is available is under the command of the Gov. of Louisiana.
>

[Rick]

Mike Rapoport wrote in message ...
>In the case of NO, the city is a vital deepwater port at the mouth of a
huge
>river that accesses a huge portion of the country. It pretty much has to
be
>where it is.

Some sort of port, certainly, but maybe not the whole city as it has
existed.

- Rick

[Darrel Toepfer]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

>>A good portion of the LA-NG is in Iraq...
>
> Yes they are I think the number is about 35%. What's your point? The 65%
> that is available is under the command of the Gov. of Louisiana.

They took the equipment with them, not just themselves...

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
>>>A good portion of the LA-NG is in Iraq...
>>
>> Yes they are I think the number is about 35%. What's your point? The 65%
>> that is available is under the command of the Gov. of Louisiana.
>
> They took the equipment with them, not just themselves...

Actually quite a bit of the equipment they are using was there when they got
their and had been forward deployed and is not LA-NG equipment. But yes some
of the equipment is there maybe even a lot of LA-NG equipment is there.

What do you think that equipment was built for? While the NG is a great
disaster relief organization that is not its primary reason for being and
neither is giving kids a way to make extra money for college.

[sfb]

When it comes to spending money, the Federal government always has a
plan for everything. Some plans are more real than others. The President
proposes and the Congress disposes so apparently the Louisiana
Congressional delegation couldn't or wouldn't make the case. It would be
interesting to where else in Louisiana the Corps has been spending money
recently.

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> There was a plan to improve the whole system including raising the
> levees to withstand a Cat 5
>
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "sfb" > wrote in message
> news:PaRRe.8100$__1.4958@trnddc07...
>> The Corps of Engineers budget is a long running smoke and mirrors
>> political game where the administration goes low so the
>> Congresscritters can get the credit for adding stuff the local folks
>> want. The Corps doesn't think the improvements would have made a
>> difference as Katrina drove water over the top of the levees
>> undermining the dry side.
>>
>> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
>> news:uwQRe.3684
>>>
>>> If all the money for the Corps of Engineers wasn't sent to Iraq, the
>>> infrastructure around New Orleans could have been improved to the
>>> point where most people could go home now. Smaller hurricanes
>>> wouldn't require any evacuation. Supposedly the cost was under $1B.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> MU-2
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[George Patterson]

Ash Wyllie wrote:
>
> while (Federal Flood Insurance)
> {
> >Step One: Build house on beach
> >Step Two: Watch house swallowed by sea.
> >Step Three: Rebuild?
> }

Are you aware that the payouts of that program are paid for by the premiums
(just as with my private insurance policy)?

Are you aware that the Feds force homeowners to build to flood-resistant
standards in order to qualify?

Are you aware that the Federal Flood Insurance program has significantly
*reduced* the cost of disaster relief (which *is* paid for via taxes)?

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/consumer/a/floodinsurance.htm

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

Dylan Smith wrote:
>
> If the Federal Government is supposed to have so little involvement,
> what's the point of Louisiana being a state of the United States?

It keeps the government of the United States from sending the army in to kill
people and burn cities.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[W P Dixon]

;) And the last time some states decided not be in the United States the
President started federal income tax to pay for the war. Also had a
wonderful little draft going where the rich fellows could pay 300 bucks and
send a poor guy in his place. But it's a long story....;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:2M1Se.128$tx.15@trndny02...
> Dylan Smith wrote:
>>
>> If the Federal Government is supposed to have so little involvement,
>> what's the point of Louisiana being a state of the United States?
>
> It keeps the government of the United States from sending the army in to
> kill people and burn cities.
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> What do you think that equipment was built for? While the NG is a great
> disaster relief organization that is not its primary reason for being and
> neither is giving kids a way to make extra money for college.

There isn't alot of LA-NG equipment to start with. There is nothing here
but a building at present/prior to Katrina. Probably alot of equipment
got sent back to Ft. Polk or is on loan for forward deployment long ago.
We used to have a personal carrier and a duece, thats about it and I
haven't seen those for several years...

During Lili Opelousas municipal took all the available NG generators,
just because they called for them first, there was no rationing or
rational behind it. The local water company burned up 2 of their 3 or
so, probably due to poor maintenance and nobody monitoring them. We
squeeked by without having to boil water, other surrounding areas
weren't so lucky. Not having A/C for a week, at least being able to
shower 2 or 3 times a day made is somewhat more bearable...

Deployment of the NG here was primarily cleanup and security. They
cleaned up the debris from the streets, cleared limbs from homes of
those that couldn't afford a professional and brought it to the burn
basin. My family cooked an entire meal (fried turkey) for the group
(75+) that was sent here and the city workers assisting them, several
others/organizations did as well over a week or so period. They were
quite appreciative of a missed MRE...

Bringing back a sense of normality does alot for the moral of a
community that has been devastated. I kneaux it allowed ours to bounce
back pretty quickly...

[Darrel Toepfer]

sfb wrote:

> It would be interesting to where else in Louisiana the Corps has been
> spending money recently.

Dredging, lots of dredging always going on, gotta keep the commerce
flowing... Lots of concern over the Old River structure in years past.
If it failed it could have been nearly or more catastrofic than Katrina.
The foundations of it have been the main cause, if a sink hole would
occur and wash under it...

[Darrel Toepfer]

George Patterson wrote:

> It keeps the government of the United States from sending the army in to
> kill people and burn cities.

Buildings are on fire, orders to shoot to kill... hmmmm... What was your
point again? Oh wait its the weekend warriors, they aren't army...

[sfb]

Rephrase the question: what was added by Congress that wasn't in the
Administration's request?

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> sfb wrote:
>
>> It would be interesting to where else in Louisiana the Corps has been
>> spending money recently.
>
> Dredging, lots of dredging always going on, gotta keep the commerce
> flowing... Lots of concern over the Old River structure in years past.
> If it failed it could have been nearly or more catastrofic than
> Katrina. The foundations of it have been the main cause, if a sink
> hole would occur and wash under it...

[Pixel Dent]

In article >,
"W P Dixon" > wrote:

> Jay,
> Can't we also say the same is true for the misguided souls who live in
> trailer parks in the Midwest? What bright official deemed these things
> livable? We don't call them tornado magnets for nothing. Most people in the
> country would consider the kid with the big ears playing the banjo on
> "Deliverance" to be smarter than people who live in trailers in the Midwest.

Forget trailers and tornadoes. Ever read about the New Madrid, MO
earthquakes in 1812? Made the 1906 San Francisco quake look quaint in
comparison. If that doesn't scare you off living in the midwest...

[Pixel Dent]

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> "Morgans" > wrote:
>
> > Hell, bring in the C-17's, and C-5A's and C-130's. Marshall law should have
> > been declared, all should have been driven out, and transportation provided
> > for those who needed it. Set up refugee camps at closed military bases, and
> > all could have lived much more comfortably than they are now.
>
> This is one point I can't understand .... you (the USA) is able to invade a
> country in a matter of 1 or 2 days (I don't want to argue about *that*
> right now), bring thousands of soldiers from one side of the planet to the
> other one ... but: aren't you able to bring several thousand of soldiers, a
> carrier, etc. down to New Orleans? Let your troops do something useful.
>
> #m

Actually it took about 6 months to get the soldiers in place for Iraq.
One commentator on NPR this morning cited the old maxim, "Amateurs
discuss strategy, professionals discuss logistics."

[Matt Whiting]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Jay,
>
>
>>And now, for some aviation content: The looters in New Orleans are SHOOTING
>>at rescue helicopters!
>>
>
>
> Ah, isn't it a great country where everbody has the legal right to own guns?
>

Yes, it is. However, that don't have the right to shoot at helicopters.
Is this a difference too great for you to comprehend?

Matt

[Montblack]

("John Clear" wrote)
> A big earthquake will happen, but steps have been taken to minimize
> the impact.


"A" big earthquake ....maybe.

"The" big earthquake ...not a chance in hell of reducing the impact.

It's like building a barn in Minnesota to withstand an F-5 tornado. Good
luck.

....or maybe there is a chance of surviving an F-5 tornado.
http://www.monolithicdome.com/
(cool site - many links)


Montblack

[Pixel Dent]

In article >,
Darrel Toepfer > wrote:

> Bob Noel wrote:
>
> >>The National Guard is and they have yet to arrive in any quantity.
> >
> > Talk to the state or governer. I was under the impression that Martin
> > was whining about the feds.
>
> A good portion of the LA-NG is in Iraq...

Yes, about 25 to 30% if I remember the CNN report. That leaves quite a
few.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
message > I'm gone...
>
> Good riddance.
>


Well, at least some good has come out of this terrible disaster.

[Pixel Dent]

In article <X9XRe.82236$084.46538@attbi_s22>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > Next: The end of the west coast, since it is in an earthquake area.
> > Imagine Silicon Valley vanishing in a major quake...
>
> Silicon Valley is another perfect example of human arrogance.
>
> Hey -- wait -- I've got it! Let's build a 100 billion dollar
> infrastructure on top of a major fault line!
>
> And when (not if) it is destroyed, there will be people begging the Federal
> Government to come rebuild it.

He who lives in glass houses...

http://quake.wr.usgs.gov/prepare/factsheets/NewMadrid/Charleston1895.gif

Shows the New Madrid fault seismic extends into Iowa.

To quote another page...

A major earthquake in this area (7.5 or greater) happens every 200-300
years (the last one in 1812). There is a 25% chance of such a disaster
by the year 2040. A New Madrid Fault rupture this size would be felt
throughout half the United States and damage expected in 20 states or
more. Missouri alone could anticipate losses of at least $6 billion (in
1990 dollars) from such an event.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> On the other hand, as I understand it, welfare recipients now receive
> government ATM cards, so perhaps they all don't receive money on "The
> First" anymore?

How do you expect them to receive money when they are displaced? This is
the most logical method...

Local banks said many are in there asking how do they get their check.
I'm sure it goes into an account, somewhere...

[Rick]

Pixel Dent wrote in message ...
>In article >,
> Martin Hotze > wrote:
>
>> "Morgans" > wrote:
>>
>> > Hell, bring in the C-17's, and C-5A's and C-130's. Marshall law should
have
>> > been declared, all should have been driven out, and transportation
provided
>> > for those who needed it. Set up refugee camps at closed military
bases, and
>> > all could have lived much more comfortably than they are now.
>>
>> This is one point I can't understand .... you (the USA) is able to invade
a
>> country in a matter of 1 or 2 days (I don't want to argue about *that*
>> right now), bring thousands of soldiers from one side of the planet to
the
>> other one ... but: aren't you able to bring several thousand of soldiers,
a
>> carrier, etc. down to New Orleans? Let your troops do something useful.
>>
>> #m
>
>Actually it took about 6 months to get the soldiers in place for Iraq.
>One commentator on NPR this morning cited the old maxim, "Amateurs
>discuss strategy, professionals discuss logistics."

It also took about a year of up to 10,000 Special Ops covert operators
prepping the battlefield, using bribery and other techniques to soften the
Republican Guard. Once the invasion began, it took several days to get to
Baghdad, a distance that one could ordinarily drive in a few hours. I agree
that there should have been much better planning in place for NO, but the
professionals have some understanding of the problems that would shock
amateurs:

http://www.nola.com/printer/printer.ssf?/washingaway/
"The American Red Cross will not put emergency shelters in the area because
it does not want to put volunteers or evacuees in danger."

- Rick

[Darrel Toepfer]

Pixel Dent wrote:

>>A good portion of the LA-NG is in Iraq...
>
> Yes, about 25 to 30% if I remember the CNN report. That leaves quite a
> few.

So how long does it take to call them up, marshall them together and
transport them in? Keep in mind that our long distance service is out
for the most part. Anywhere you want to call, town to town, etc. is
typically long distance. How many days has it been since Katrina? Maybe
you're confusing Louisiana with something the size of Rhode Island, D.C.
or New Jersey...

[Rick]

Tom Fleischman wrote in message
<2005090216580216807%bodhioneeightyeightjunkatmacdo tcom@junkjunk>...
>You know what, Jay? You disgust me me. I've had it with your racist,
>christo-fascist

You forgot Neocon. All those Stupid Red State Iowa Rubes are Neocons.

>ravings.
>
>You are a sick, twisted, miserable excuse for a human being and you
>should be ashamed of yourself.
>
>I'm done with you, and the rest of your ilk in these newsgroups. There
>are a few reasonable people here, but for the most part you all disgust
>me. Your sometimes-useful aviation related contributions are not worth
>putting up with your ignorant and offensive posts anymore.
>
>I'm gone...
>
>Good riddance.
[snip]

- Rick, stupid ex-pat Iowa Neocon.

[Pixel Dent]

In article >,
Darrel Toepfer > wrote:

> Pixel Dent wrote:
>
> >>A good portion of the LA-NG is in Iraq...
> >
> > Yes, about 25 to 30% if I remember the CNN report. That leaves quite a
> > few.
>
> So how long does it take to call them up, marshall them together and
> transport them in?

I'm impressed they've done it as quickly as they have. I would have
expected longer given the transportation issues.

> Keep in mind that our long distance service is out
> for the most part. Anywhere you want to call, town to town, etc. is
> typically long distance.

I'll do that

> How many days has it been since Katrina?

4

> Maybe
> you're confusing Louisiana with something the size of Rhode Island, D.C.
> or New Jersey...

No, I live close enough that there was a good chance Katrina was heading
my way.

I'm curious, why do you think I'm confused about the size of Louisiana?
All I did was report the percentage of NG troops from LA not stationed
in Iraq (at least according to CNN).

You have me bewildered.

[john smith]

>>>Next: The end of the west coast, since it is in an earthquake area.
>>>Imagine Silicon Valley vanishing in a major quake...

>>Silicon Valley is another perfect example of human arrogance.
>>Hey -- wait -- I've got it! Let's build a 100 billion dollar
>>infrastructure on top of a major fault line!
>>And when (not if) it is destroyed, there will be people begging the Federal
>>Government to come rebuild it.

> He who lives in glass houses...
> http://quake.wr.usgs.gov/prepare/factsheets/NewMadrid/Charleston1895.gif
> Shows the New Madrid fault seismic extends into Iowa.
> To quote another page...
> A major earthquake in this area (7.5 or greater) happens every 200-300
> years (the last one in 1812). There is a 25% chance of such a disaster
> by the year 2040. A New Madrid Fault rupture this size would be felt
> throughout half the United States and damage expected in 20 states or
> more. Missouri alone could anticipate losses of at least $6 billion (in
> 1990 dollars) from such an event.

The New Madrid fault is a horizontal fault so the the total area lying
atop the plate above the epicenter is affected.

[Philip S.]

in article , Matt Whiting at
wrote on 9/2/05 3:29 AM:

> Philip S. wrote:
>> in article , john smith at
>> wrote on 9/1/05 8:21 PM:
>>
>>
>>> Philip S. wrote:
>>>
>>>> You might better direct your anger towards a federal government that had
>>>> all
>>>> the same warnings, all the same information (and probably more), and yet
>>>> has
>>>> STILL not taken control of the situation, FOUR DAYS after disaster struck.
>>>> Shoot, Jay, when even the collective might of the United States military
>>>> and
>>>> its assorted agencies are running around with their thumbs up their asses
>>>> several days after the fact, is it really appropriate to express outrage at
>>>> the victims who are suffering most?
>>>
>>> Stop blaming the federal government!
>>> That's why this mess is so bad in the first place.
>>> State and local governments have become so dependent upon the federal
>>> programs, they cannot think, let alone act on their on.
>>> The City of New Orleans did nothing until the last minute.
>>> The State of Louisana did nothing until after the fact.
>>> The federal government is trying to play catch up.
>>> The City of New Orleans knew what the consequences were.
>>> The State of Lousiana certainly had some idea of the consequences based
>>> on their oversight authority.
>>> Both these government entities dragged their heels waiting for Uncle Sam
>>> to come to their rescue before the fact. The only thing Uncle Sam knew
>>> was that it was going to be bad.
>>
>>
>> Terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference--the
>> current administration ran for re-election less than a year ago on the
>> premise that they could keep us all safe, that they were better than their
>> opponents on issues of "homeland security", that when it came to protecting
>> the homeland, only they could do the job.
>
> How do you propose that the Feds stop a hurricane? Put up a tall fence?
> Protecting the homeland from a hurricane. That is hilarious...
>
> Matt

Um, are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or do you just not
know how to read? I clearly was referring to the response to the disaster,
not the disaster itself. But feel free to erect as many strawmen as
possible.

[Philip S.]

in article , Bob
Noel at wrote on 9/2/05 4:29 AM:

> In article >,
> "Philip S." > wrote:
>
>> Terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference--the
>> current administration ran for re-election less than a year ago on the
>> premise that they could keep us all safe, that they were better than their
>> opponents on issues of "homeland security", that when it came to protecting
>> the homeland, only they could do the job.
>
> yeah, fixing a distaster of this magnitude is really a simple thing. Just
> like
> with a TV one-hour drama.

What are you talking about? Who said it was a "simple thing"?

[Philip S.]

in article TZWRe.82217$084.51854@attbi_s22, Jay Honeck at
wrote on 9/2/05 4:48 AM:

>> If tourists couldn't get out, even with plenty of warning, what options do
>> you think poor people had?
>
> No, you need to ask that slightly differently. "If tourists couldn't get
> out, what options do you think native New Orleaneans (or whatever they are
> called) had?"
>
> I'd wager that someone who lived there would have a heckuva lot more "street
> knowledge" on how to get out, than a lost tourist would.
>
> As the story develops over time, it's all coming down to this: Those who
> knew, and could, got out. Those who didn't -- or didn't care -- stayed.

I don't know about the story you're hearing, but what I'm hearing is that a
heck of a lot of people simply had no way of leaving. Believe it or not, it
really IS that simple. Hell, I heard a woman at the N.O. Ritz Carlton
interviewed. She said the hotel was packed with (presumably well-off)
tourists just like herself, who had tried like hell to get out of town last
Saturday. These are rich people we're talking about, Jay--people who can
charter a plane if they have to. And THEY couldn't get out.

But all of this begs a much larger question: if the people of New Orleans
had "plenty of warning", and should be held accountable for not getting out
in time, why in the hell are their so many apologists for the feds not being
prepared?

[Dave Stadt]

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> Pixel Dent wrote:
>
> >>A good portion of the LA-NG is in Iraq...
> >
> > Yes, about 25 to 30% if I remember the CNN report. That leaves quite a
> > few.
>
> So how long does it take to call them up, marshall them together and
> transport them in? Keep in mind that our long distance service is out
> for the most part. Anywhere you want to call, town to town, etc. is
> typically long distance. How many days has it been since Katrina? Maybe
> you're confusing Louisiana with something the size of Rhode Island, D.C.
> or New Jersey...

It has been a week since we up here in IL got word NO was likely to get hit
bad and still the NG is not there in any significant numbers. Doesn't the
military have a better communication system than relying on commercial
telephone. It's pretty sad.

[Philip S.]

in article K7XRe.323186$xm3.141266@attbi_s21, Jay Honeck at
wrote on 9/2/05 4:58 AM:

>>> How many people have to tell these dumb asses to GET THE HELL OUT OF
>>> DODGE
>>> when there is a Level 5 hurricane bearing down on them, before they
>>> actually
>>> listen?
>>
>> You might better direct your anger towards a federal government that had
>> all
>> the same warnings, all the same information (and probably more), and yet
>> has
>> STILL not taken control of the situation, FOUR DAYS after disaster struck.
>>
>> Shoot, Jay, when even the collective might of the United States military
>> and
>> its assorted agencies are running around with their thumbs up their asses
>> several days after the fact, is it really appropriate to express outrage
>> at
>> the victims who are suffering most?
>
> The Feds must be invited by the governor of any state before they can
> react -- period. This is NOT a Federal Government thing until it becomes
> apparent that the State cannot handle things.

That was apparent to me about 4 days ago, but I only watch TV and read the
internet. What do I know?

> I am not angry about the situation -- I am incredulous. It's an awful,
> horrible mess, and the entire country is going to pay a bitter price for the
> stupidity and arrogance of a relative few, starting with:
>
> 1. People who thought it was okay to live 20 feet below sea level, next to
> an ocean.
> 2. Government officials who allowed stupid people to build 20 feet below sea
> level, next to an ocean.

Jesus, Jay, do you honestly think there is a place on this planet that is
safe from natural disaster? Hey, I've heard that Iowa is called "The Cyclone
State". Helluva place to set up house, Jay.

> 3. Environmental activists who, through their actions, have left our country
> economically ravaged by the loss of a few lousy oil refineries.
> 4. Able bodied "victims" who, on national TV, shout their anger and contempt
> because the "Gubmint" hasn't done enough.

Go without food, water and breathable air for a week sometime, Jay, and let
us know how "able-bodied" you're feeling.

> 5. Armed gangs of "victims" who are shooting at rescue helicopters.

I'll agree with you on this one point. Nobody has any use for the lunatics
that did this. But how many of them do you think there were?

[Philip S.]

in article X9XRe.82236$084.46538@attbi_s22, Jay Honeck at
wrote on 9/2/05 5:00 AM:

>> Next: The end of the west coast, since it is in an earthquake area.
>> Imagine Silicon Valley vanishing in a major quake...
>
> Silicon Valley is another perfect example of human arrogance.
>
> Hey -- wait -- I've got it! Let's build a 100 billion dollar
> infrastructure on top of a major fault line!
>
> And when (not if) it is destroyed, there will be people begging the Federal
> Government to come rebuild it.

Yeah, let's only settle in places that are completely safe from natural
disaster. Why don't we make a list of such places? I'll let you start.

[Matt Whiting]

Philip S. wrote:
> in article , Matt Whiting at
> wrote on 9/2/05 3:29 AM:
>
>
>>Philip S. wrote:

>>>Terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference--the
>>>current administration ran for re-election less than a year ago on the
>>>premise that they could keep us all safe, that they were better than their
>>>opponents on issues of "homeland security", that when it came to protecting
>>>the homeland, only they could do the job.
>>
>>How do you propose that the Feds stop a hurricane? Put up a tall fence?
>>Protecting the homeland from a hurricane. That is hilarious...
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> Um, are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or do you just not
> know how to read? I clearly was referring to the response to the disaster,
> not the disaster itself. But feel free to erect as many strawmen as
> possible.

No, simply pointing out that what you wrote was ludicrous. Maybe you
didn't write what you intended, but above you clearly say that
"terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference"
and then you say the Bush administration ran for re-election on the
premise that they could keep us all safe from either of the above. And
then you say that they should have protected the homeland. So you are
clearly saying that they should have been able to protect the homeland
from EITHER a terrorist attack or a natural disaster. They have clearly
done the former and they can't possibly do the latter so your assertion
is hilarious as I stated.


Matt

[Philip S.]

in article , Matt Whiting at
wrote on 9/2/05 5:52 PM:

> Philip S. wrote:
>> in article , Matt Whiting at
>> wrote on 9/2/05 3:29 AM:
>>
>>
>>> Philip S. wrote:
>
>>>> Terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference--the
>>>> current administration ran for re-election less than a year ago on the
>>>> premise that they could keep us all safe, that they were better than their
>>>> opponents on issues of "homeland security", that when it came to protecting
>>>> the homeland, only they could do the job.
>>>
>>> How do you propose that the Feds stop a hurricane? Put up a tall fence?
>>> Protecting the homeland from a hurricane. That is hilarious...
>>>
>>> Matt
>>
>>
>> Um, are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or do you just not
>> know how to read? I clearly was referring to the response to the disaster,
>> not the disaster itself. But feel free to erect as many strawmen as
>> possible.
>
> No, simply pointing out that what you wrote was ludicrous. Maybe you
> didn't write what you intended, but above you clearly say that
> "terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference"
> and then you say the Bush administration ran for re-election on the
> premise that they could keep us all safe from either of the above. And
> then you say that they should have protected the homeland. So you are
> clearly saying that they should have been able to protect the homeland
> from EITHER a terrorist attack or a natural disaster. They have clearly
> done the former and they can't possibly do the latter so your assertion
> is hilarious as I stated.
>
>
> Matt

It's not hilarious, it's sad. It's incompetence on a scale I've seldom seen
before, and thank God people are starting to catch on. Just today, I've read
editorials and heard statements by the likes of The Washington Times
(extremely pro-Bush paper), The National Review, Red State.org (extremely
conservative website), Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, and a host of
conservative politicians and pundits all blasting Bush and the federal
response to this disaster. Good. If they're catching on, the rest of the
country can't be far behind.

[Matt Whiting]

Philip S. wrote:

> in article , Matt Whiting at
> wrote on 9/2/05 5:52 PM:
>
>
>>Philip S. wrote:
>>
>>>in article , Matt Whiting at
wrote on 9/2/05 3:29 AM:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Philip S. wrote:
>>
>>>>>Terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference--the
>>>>>current administration ran for re-election less than a year ago on the
>>>>>premise that they could keep us all safe, that they were better than their
>>>>>opponents on issues of "homeland security", that when it came to protecting
>>>>>the homeland, only they could do the job.
>>>>
>>>>How do you propose that the Feds stop a hurricane? Put up a tall fence?
>>>>Protecting the homeland from a hurricane. That is hilarious...
>>>>
>>>>Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>Um, are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or do you just not
>>>know how to read? I clearly was referring to the response to the disaster,
>>>not the disaster itself. But feel free to erect as many strawmen as
>>>possible.
>>
>>No, simply pointing out that what you wrote was ludicrous. Maybe you
>>didn't write what you intended, but above you clearly say that
>>"terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference"
>>and then you say the Bush administration ran for re-election on the
>>premise that they could keep us all safe from either of the above. And
>>then you say that they should have protected the homeland. So you are
>>clearly saying that they should have been able to protect the homeland
>>from EITHER a terrorist attack or a natural disaster. They have clearly
>>done the former and they can't possibly do the latter so your assertion
>>is hilarious as I stated.
>>
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> It's not hilarious, it's sad. It's incompetence on a scale I've seldom seen
> before, and thank God people are starting to catch on. Just today, I've read
> editorials and heard statements by the likes of The Washington Times
> (extremely pro-Bush paper), The National Review, Red State.org (extremely
> conservative website), Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, and a host of
> conservative politicians and pundits all blasting Bush and the federal
> response to this disaster. Good. If they're catching on, the rest of the
> country can't be far behind.
>

Except that you weren't talking about a response to a terrorist attack
or natural disaster, you were talking about protecting the homeland from
either of these. Is English a second or third language for you?

Matt

[john smith]

Philip S. wrote:
> I don't know about the story you're hearing, but what I'm hearing is that a
> heck of a lot of people simply had no way of leaving. Believe it or not, it
> really IS that simple. Hell, I heard a woman at the N.O. Ritz Carlton
> interviewed. She said the hotel was packed with (presumably well-off)
> tourists just like herself, who had tried like hell to get out of town last
> Saturday. These are rich people we're talking about, Jay--people who can
> charter a plane if they have to. And THEY couldn't get out.

And they re-interviewed her this afternoon.
She was calling from BWI.
She related that shortly after the conversation ended yesterday,
helicopters began to buzz around the hotel.
Shortly thereafter, the hotel manager called everyone to the ballroom.
The manager then told them arrangements had been made to evacuate them.
Because of the high water, they had to walk four blocks to the Marrriot
to get to the busses.
The 300 people at the Ritz Carlton were infectious disease specialists
attending a convention. They liberated antibiotics from the CVS across
the street and gave everyone a dose to protect them from the waters they
would have to wade through.
When they got to the Marriot, instead of the eight buses they were told
to expect, there were 18. These buses were being protected by security
with automatic weapons. Additionally, they had military helicopters for
aircover to watch for snipers.

Someone with influence heard that broadcast.

[john smith]

Philip S. wrote:
> Go without food, water and breathable air for a week sometime, Jay, and let
> us know how "able-bodied" you're feeling.

3-hours / 3-days / 3-weeks

3-hours without water, dehydration sets in

3-days without sleep, the brain begins to lose cognitive function

3-weeks without food, the body begins to break down tissue

[Philip S.]

in article , Matt Whiting at
wrote on 9/2/05 6:11 PM:

> Philip S. wrote:
>
>> in article , Matt Whiting at
>> wrote on 9/2/05 5:52 PM:
>>
>>
>>> Philip S. wrote:
>>>
>>>> in article , Matt Whiting at
>>>> wrote on 9/2/05 3:29 AM:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Philip S. wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference--the
>>>>>> current administration ran for re-election less than a year ago on the
>>>>>> premise that they could keep us all safe, that they were better than
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> opponents on issues of "homeland security", that when it came to
>>>>>> protecting
>>>>>> the homeland, only they could do the job.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do you propose that the Feds stop a hurricane? Put up a tall fence?
>>>>> Protecting the homeland from a hurricane. That is hilarious...
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Um, are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or do you just not
>>>> know how to read? I clearly was referring to the response to the disaster,
>>>> not the disaster itself. But feel free to erect as many strawmen as
>>>> possible.
>>>
>>> No, simply pointing out that what you wrote was ludicrous. Maybe you
>>> didn't write what you intended, but above you clearly say that
>>> "terrorist attack or natural disaster, it really makes no difference"
>>> and then you say the Bush administration ran for re-election on the
>>> premise that they could keep us all safe from either of the above. And
>>> then you say that they should have protected the homeland. So you are
>>> clearly saying that they should have been able to protect the homeland
>>> from EITHER a terrorist attack or a natural disaster. They have clearly
>>> done the former and they can't possibly do the latter so your assertion
>>> is hilarious as I stated.
>>>
>>>
>>> Matt
>>
>>
>> It's not hilarious, it's sad. It's incompetence on a scale I've seldom seen
>> before, and thank God people are starting to catch on. Just today, I've read
>> editorials and heard statements by the likes of The Washington Times
>> (extremely pro-Bush paper), The National Review, Red State.org (extremely
>> conservative website), Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, and a host of
>> conservative politicians and pundits all blasting Bush and the federal
>> response to this disaster. Good. If they're catching on, the rest of the
>> country can't be far behind.
>>
>
> Except that you weren't talking about a response to a terrorist attack
> or natural disaster, you were talking about protecting the homeland from
> either of these. Is English a second or third language for you?
>
> Matt

Okay, if it'll stop you obfuscating the matter with semantics, I'll clarify
my remarks:

Nobody expects the President to prevent a natural disaster. What reasonable
people should expect from the President (especially one who ran on a
platform of "homeland security") is a competent, timely response to perhaps
the worst natural disaster to ever strike this country. They should expect
that he not wait until two days after the scope of the disaster became
apparent to end his vacation. They should expect that the Secretary of State
(who happens to be in charge of coordinating relief efforts from other
countries) not spend Wednesday evening taking in a Broadway show and
Thursday shoe-shopping. They have a right to expect that the head of FEMA
know more about the situation than a CNN reporter.

Oh, and this just in--a Senate Republican is co-sponsoring a full
investigation into the whole thing. Good. The apologists are rapidly
dwindling, and I'm thinking most of them can be found on this newsgroup.

[Philip S.]

in article , john smith at
wrote on 9/2/05 6:15 PM:

> Philip S. wrote:
>> I don't know about the story you're hearing, but what I'm hearing is that a
>> heck of a lot of people simply had no way of leaving. Believe it or not, it
>> really IS that simple. Hell, I heard a woman at the N.O. Ritz Carlton
>> interviewed. She said the hotel was packed with (presumably well-off)
>> tourists just like herself, who had tried like hell to get out of town last
>> Saturday. These are rich people we're talking about, Jay--people who can
>> charter a plane if they have to. And THEY couldn't get out.
>
> And they re-interviewed her this afternoon.
> She was calling from BWI.
> She related that shortly after the conversation ended yesterday,
> helicopters began to buzz around the hotel.
> Shortly thereafter, the hotel manager called everyone to the ballroom.
> The manager then told them arrangements had been made to evacuate them.
> Because of the high water, they had to walk four blocks to the Marrriot
> to get to the busses.
> The 300 people at the Ritz Carlton were infectious disease specialists
> attending a convention. They liberated antibiotics from the CVS across
> the street and gave everyone a dose to protect them from the waters they
> would have to wade through.
> When they got to the Marriot, instead of the eight buses they were told
> to expect, there were 18. These buses were being protected by security
> with automatic weapons. Additionally, they had military helicopters for
> aircover to watch for snipers.
>
> Someone with influence heard that broadcast.

Ya think?

[George Patterson]

Darrel Toepfer wrote:
>
> Buildings are on fire, orders to shoot to kill... hmmmm... What was your
> point again? Oh wait its the weekend warriors, they aren't army...

I responded to the question "What's the point of Louisiana being a state of the
United States?' I said absolutely nothing about "weekend warriors."

The last time Louisiana attempted to stop being a State, the Federal government
used it as an excuse for war.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[john smith]

Philip S. wrote:
> Nobody expects the President to prevent a natural disaster. What reasonable
> people should expect from the President (especially one who ran on a
> platform of "homeland security") is a competent, timely response to perhaps
> the worst natural disaster to ever strike this country. They should expect
> that he not wait until two days after the scope of the disaster became
> apparent to end his vacation. They should expect that the Secretary of State
> (who happens to be in charge of coordinating relief efforts from other
> countries) not spend Wednesday evening taking in a Broadway show and
> Thursday shoe-shopping. They have a right to expect that the head of FEMA
> know more about the situation than a CNN reporter.

Wow!
What are the odds of two national disasters occurring during one
President's watch?

[George Patterson]

john smith wrote:
>
> They liberated antibiotics from the CVS across
> the street and gave everyone a dose to protect them from the waters they
> would have to wade through.

Nice way to say they looted a drugstore.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[john smith]

George Patterson wrote:
> Nice way to say they looted a drugstore.

Yes, but it was done professionally.
They took only what they needed.
;-))

[sfb]

The President signed declarations enabling Federal disaster relief
before Katrina hit the Gulf coast. Unless you expect him to be driving a
Humvee full of water into town, it really doesn't matter where he is
located as he always retains full Presidential authority.

"Philip S." > wrote in message
news:BF3E495D.151315%
>
> Okay, if it'll stop you obfuscating the matter with semantics, I'll
> clarify
> my remarks:
>
> Nobody expects the President to prevent a natural disaster. What
> reasonable
> people should expect from the President (especially one who ran on a
> platform of "homeland security") is a competent, timely response to
> perhaps
> the worst natural disaster to ever strike this country. They should
> expect
> that he not wait until two days after the scope of the disaster became
> apparent to end his vacation. They should expect that the Secretary of
> State
> (who happens to be in charge of coordinating relief efforts from other
> countries) not spend Wednesday evening taking in a Broadway show and
> Thursday shoe-shopping. They have a right to expect that the head of
> FEMA
> know more about the situation than a CNN reporter.
>
> Oh, and this just in--a Senate Republican is co-sponsoring a full
> investigation into the whole thing. Good. The apologists are rapidly
> dwindling, and I'm thinking most of them can be found on this
> newsgroup.
>

[Flyingmonk]

and a couple of Snikers bars, a few bags of potato chips, and a few
bottles of diet coke. ;^)

[Darrel Toepfer]

Pixel Dent wrote:

> You have me bewildered.

Find another place to troll...

*PLONK*

[Darrel Toepfer]

Dave Stadt wrote:

> It has been a week since we up here in IL got word NO was likely to get hit
> bad and still the NG is not there in any significant numbers. Doesn't the
> military have a better communication system than relying on commercial
> telephone. It's pretty sad.

Do you think every NG soldier gets a field radio when they sign up?

[Darrel Toepfer]

George Patterson wrote:

> The last time Louisiana attempted to stop being a State, the Federal
> government used it as an excuse for war.

Well that parish (Sheriff) is just south of New Orleans, that was over
integration, just that parish wanted out of the union. Feds got scared
because he could have closed the mouth of the Mississippi river to
shipping... Oh your typing about me being a son of the Confederacy...
otay...

[Dave Stadt]

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt wrote:
>
> > It has been a week since we up here in IL got word NO was likely to get
hit
> > bad and still the NG is not there in any significant numbers. Doesn't
the
> > military have a better communication system than relying on commercial
> > telephone. It's pretty sad.
>
> Do you think every NG soldier gets a field radio when they sign up?

I don't know what they get but it is nuts that the NG relies on the
commercial phone system to gather its troops. If terrorist knock out a few
phone company exchanges I guess they win because the NG can't call its
troops to come perform their duties. Pretty lame way to guard the nation in
my book.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Dave Stadt wrote:

> I don't know what they get but it is nuts that the NG relies on the
> commercial phone system to gather its troops. If terrorist knock out a few
> phone company exchanges I guess they win because the NG can't call its
> troops to come perform their duties. Pretty lame way to guard the nation in
> my book.

Actually they use the phone, broadcast radio and teevee. When you don't
have any of that working, they'll have to come knock on your door I
suppose...

[George Patterson]

Darrel Toepfer wrote:
>
> Oh your typing about me being a son of the Confederacy...

No, I'm not typing about *you* at all - just explaining to Dylan that Louisiana
doesn't have any choice about being a State. Not any more.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:48:04 GMT, Dave Stadt wrote:

>It has been a week since we up here in IL got word NO was likely to get hit
>bad and still the NG is not there in any significant numbers. Doesn't the
>military have a better communication system than relying on commercial
>telephone. It's pretty sad.

they had a well done report yesterday on TV here in Austria. The disaster
area is the size of Great Britain, just to have a relation for us
Europeans.
The shocking part was the window dressing made in Biloxi for your
president. Reporters told us they saw rescue and reparation efforts, US
flags raised, on the street the president was driving through, this wasn't
seen before or after. And one street behind they piled up the bodies.
Then they also brought some numbers on poverty esp. in News Orleans, many
people there being poorer than the average, they also brought up some black
and white stuff in a short discussion, very plausible.
Finally they said that you have all the resources you need, there is only
little organisation/coordination.

#m
--
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed,
most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we
come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents.
-- Nathaniel Borenstein

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Dave Stadt" > wrote:

> I don't know what they get but it is nuts that the NG relies on the
> commercial phone system to gather its troops.

What method would you suggest they rely on?

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Flyingmonk]

How 'bout what the original(native) NG used, smoke signals. ;^)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> But what's that got to do with it? Barbarians will always find weapons.
>

Barbarians... weapons... you made the connection...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> True.
>
> And the King of Prussia still owes my ancestors, dammit.
>

Short memories make for a conveniently clear conscience.

As Michael Moore asks in his open letter to Bush: Can you imagine
leaving white people on their roofs for five days?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Ash Wyllie]

George Patterson opined

>Ash Wyllie wrote:
>>
>> while (Federal Flood Insurance)
>> {
>> >Step One: Build house on beach
>> >Step Two: Watch house swallowed by sea.
>> >Step Three: Rebuild?
>> }

>Are you aware that the payouts of that program are paid for by the premiums
>(just as with my private insurance policy)?

If premiums cover costs, why can't one get _private_ flood insurance?

>Are you aware that the Feds force homeowners to build to flood-resistant
>standards in order to qualify?

That's nice, but it would be better not to build in flood prone areas in the
first place.

>Are you aware that the Federal Flood Insurance program has significantly
>*reduced* the cost of disaster relief (which *is* paid for via taxes)?

See above.

-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[Thomas Borchert]

Matt,

> They have clearly
> done the former
>

How is that clear? Some experts think quite the opposite is the case.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Tom,

You put it drastically, but IMHO, you have a point.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[sfb]

While 67% of the population of New Orleans is black, the seven parishes
and counties in Louisiana and Mississippi that took the direct hit are
35% black so there are a lot of white people suffering.

Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Jay,
>
>> True.
>>
>> And the King of Prussia still owes my ancestors, dammit.
>>
>
> Short memories make for a conveniently clear conscience.
>
> As Michael Moore asks in his open letter to Bush: Can you imagine
> leaving white people on their roofs for five days?
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>

[Pixel Dent]

Darrel Toepfer wrote:
> Pixel Dent wrote:
>
> > You have me bewildered.
>
> Find another place to troll...
>
> *PLONK*

This is kinda cool.

I've been doing the usenet thing since 1985 and in those 20 years I'm
pretty sure this is the first time I've been "Plonked." Do I get a
plaque or something?

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> As Michael Moore asks ...

yeah. Moore is one of the great thinkers of our society.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Larry Dighera]

It looks like Katrina is going to affect NASA's planned March Space
Shuttle launch:


Hurricane Katrina has indefinitely idled the Louisiana factory
that assembles space shuttle fuel tanks, and NASA said it is
looking to see if other facilities can make critical tank
repairs. NASA had tentatively planned its next shuttle mission
for March, but additional delays were likely due to
interruptions in the tank repair work that must be done before
the shuttle can fly again. The agency was primarily focused on
trying to find the employees and contractors who work at the
assembly plant in Louisiana, as well as a field center in
Mississippi where space shuttle engines are tested. Both sites
were in the path of Hurricane Katrina, which destroyed huge
sections of the U.S. Gulf Coast when it blasted ashore with 145
mph (232 kph) winds on Monday. NASA's Michoud Assembly Facility
near New Orleans and the Stennis Space Center in Bay St. Louis,
Miss., appear to have sustained roof and water damage in the
storm. Neither was expected to resume operations soon. Roads to
Michoud were still under water and hundreds of people employed
by plant operator LOCKHEED MARTIN lost their homes in the
hurricane.
(Reuters 03:57 PM ET 09/02/2005)

More:
http://q1.schwab.com/s/r?l=248&a=1126542&m=100624318d3dc05022076a&s=rb050902

[Rick]

Thomas Borchert wrote in message ...
>Jay,
>
>> True.
>>
>> And the King of Prussia still owes my ancestors, dammit.
>>
>
>Short memories make for a conveniently clear conscience.
>
>As Michael Moore asks in his open letter to Bush: Can you imagine
>leaving white people on their roofs for five days?

I guess Moore missed the bit I saw where some white folks had stayed to
protect their house, had to break into the attic to escape the water. Maybe
they forgot to put the "White People" sign on their roof so the helicopters
could rescue them first. Or maybe they weren't on the White People list that
FEMA was working from.

- Rick

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

>NASA had tentatively planned its next shuttle mission
> for March,

I thought NASA had grounded the fleet indefinitely.
(yet, there is an STS-121 scheduled for March on
the NASA website).

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Dan Luke]

"Thomas Borchert" wrote:

>
> As Michael Moore asks in his open letter to Bush: Can you imagine
> leaving white people on their roofs for five days?

Oh, please Thomas. Michael Moore is an ambulance chaser and a self
promoter who sees an opportunity to get some attention.

As to imagining leaving white people on their roofs for five days, yes I
can imagine it under the circumstances. However, it happens that the
lowest parts of New Orleans are also the poorest and blackest, and most
of the people without cars to evacuate in are black, thus the pictures
we see on tv.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[john smith]

Dan,
What is the situation in your little corner of the world?
The media is obviously neglecting everything outside New Orleans.

[john smith]

Did any of you Michael Moore fans actually read his diatribe?

Here is a direct quote which many of you have been disputing...

"Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of
Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but
it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were
still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was
on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you?!"

Michael Moore wrote it, so it must be true, right?

[Dan Luke]

"john smith" wrote:

> Dan,
> What is the situation in your little corner of the world?
> The media is obviously neglecting everything outside New Orleans.

It's improving in the Mobile Bay area. Gasoline is still very scarce
and waits of 3-4 hours to get to the pumps are not uncommon. Here on
the Eastern Shore, it appears about 90% of power has been restored, but
in Mobile County there are still large areas blacked out.

It still boggles my mind how much more damage there is here than there
was from Ivan, a strong storm that hit much closer. The storm surge in
Mobile Bay was the highest ever recorded, going back 150 years--that's
from a storm that hit 120 miles away.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[sfb]

There are many things to do like crew training so they put an X on the
calendar and work to it hoping they can solve the problems and fly.

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>>NASA had tentatively planned its next shuttle mission
>> for March,
>
> I thought NASA had grounded the fleet indefinitely.
> (yet, there is an STS-121 scheduled for March on
> the NASA website).
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> no one likes an educated mule
>

[Matt Whiting]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Jay,
>
>
>>True.
>>
>>And the King of Prussia still owes my ancestors, dammit.
>>
>
>
> Short memories make for a conveniently clear conscience.
>
> As Michael Moore asks in his open letter to Bush: Can you imagine
> leaving white people on their roofs for five days?
>

I can imagine leaving Mikey Moore on a roof top for five days, or even
50. :-)

Matt