The first $100 tow...

[Paul]

If you have a Pawnee or a Tug with enough grunt why not dual tow?
Guys at my club here in NZ do it on a regular basis on days when a long tow
is needed to get away. Split the cost.
Paul


"Stewart Kissel" > wrote in
message ...
> At 21:42 31 August 2005, Hl Falbaum wrote:
> >Actually, our numbers are 'block to block' averaged
> >over time. We usually
> >leave the mixture full rich, and have a Tost internal
> >tow rope winch. Land
> >opposite take off direction, turn around, hook up and
> >go!
>
>
> Guenther Jacobs at Parowan has refined his technique
> one step past this...the glider is staged on the active
> with the second rope hooked to it, pilot strapped in
> and ready. The towplane lands facing the glider, taxis
> up and drops it rope on the side of the runway, spins
> around and is hooked up. Tightens the rope and goes.
> Hard to waste time on the ground this way.
>
>
>

[Oscar S Alonso]

At my local FBO (Mt. Valley Airport ,California) it cost $68 for a
4,000 ft. to the top of
the mountain. With the price of AV Gas going up I wonder when/who
will be the first
FBO with a $100 4,000 ft. tow?

Any comments?

Oscar.

[Stewart Kissel]

For cross country flying...I will pay whatever the
going rate becomes. I figure a day's soaring in Colorado
is worth it. For training flights, I think this is
going to hurt. I don't see to many tow operations
getting rich, and they will get squeezed. I suppose
those with deep pockets can go to self-launching, but
not sure if that is really saving money in the long
run. The long drives many of us do to get to our soaring
spots are going to take a bigger bite as well.

On the flip side....when I hear a pilot with a $85k
glider being towed by a $50k SUV...bitching about tow
rates...I take it with a grain of salt :)

[Dave Martin]

Support Bill Daniels

GET THE WINCHES OUT!

Ok it may not get you to the top of the mountain but
with a long runway 3000 feet is easily achieveable
at a fraction of the cost!


Just a thought..........

At 15:30 31 August 2005, Oscar S Alonso wrote:
>
>At my local FBO (Mt. Valley Airport ,California) it
>cost $68 for a
>4,000 ft. to the top of
>the mountain. With the price of AV Gas going up I
>wonder when/who
>will be the first
>FBO with a $100 4,000 ft. tow?
>
>Any comments?
>
>Oscar.
>
>

[Jeremy Zawodny]

Oscar S Alonso wrote:
>
> At my local FBO (Mt. Valley Airport ,California) it cost $68 for a 4,000
> ft. to the top of
> the mountain. With the price of AV Gas going up I wonder when/who will
> be the first
> FBO with a $100 4,000 ft. tow?
>
> Any comments?

We've almost had that in Hollister for the last year. A 4,000 foot tow
(at $2.10/hundred) plus the $5 hookup cost clocks in at $89.

Jeremy

[HL Falbaum]

At our site (867ft MSL) in hot, humid Georgia we use about 1.5 gal for the
average 3000 ft tow. Our 265 hp Pawnee is STC'd for auto gas, which we have
used for about the past 5 years or so without difficulty. I just bought some
Avgas for a Mooney at 3.85/gal.
So worst case 4.00/gal, 2 gal for 4000 ft = $8.00
As always, fuel is the least expensive part of operating an airplane (within
certain limits of use), and the fixed costs are the most expensive.

--
Hartley Falbaum
Mid Georgia Soaring Assn, USA


"Jeremy Zawodny" > wrote in message
...
> Oscar S Alonso wrote:
>>
>> At my local FBO (Mt. Valley Airport ,California) it cost $68 for a 4,000
>> ft. to the top of
>> the mountain. With the price of AV Gas going up I wonder when/who will
>> be the first
>> FBO with a $100 4,000 ft. tow?
>>
>> Any comments?
>
> We've almost had that in Hollister for the last year. A 4,000 foot tow
> (at $2.10/hundred) plus the $5 hookup cost clocks in at $89.
>
> Jeremy

[For Example John Smith]

4000' tow? We strongly discourage tows above 2000' during the busy part of
the day.
Our 2000' tows haven't yet broken the $20 mark, but I suspect they will when
we get our next 3000 gallons.....

"Oscar S Alonso" > wrote in message
news:2005083108281116807%oalonso@NOSPAMmaccom...
>
> At my local FBO (Mt. Valley Airport ,California) it cost $68 for a
> 4,000 ft. to the top of
> the mountain. With the price of AV Gas going up I wonder when/who
> will be the first
> FBO with a $100 4,000 ft. tow?
>
> Any comments?
>
> Oscar.
>

[Bill Daniels]

"HL Falbaum" > wrote in message
...
> At our site (867ft MSL) in hot, humid Georgia we use about 1.5 gal for
the
> average 3000 ft tow. Our 265 hp Pawnee is STC'd for auto gas, which we
have
> used for about the past 5 years or so without difficulty. I just bought
some
> Avgas for a Mooney at 3.85/gal.
> So worst case 4.00/gal, 2 gal for 4000 ft = $8.00
> As always, fuel is the least expensive part of operating an airplane
(within
> certain limits of use), and the fixed costs are the most expensive.
>
> --
> Hartley Falbaum
> Mid Georgia Soaring Assn, USA
>
I'd bet that while 1.5 Gal is what the tow itself consumes, the average
including warm up taxi and descent will be closer to twice that. We
frequently tow for 20 minutes or so to 10 - 12K feet to reach lift over the
Rockies so fuel costs are going to hit us harder.

Mogas is a good solution if your engine/tug combination has a STC and if you
can find it without ethanol. That's getting harder all the time.

But, you are basically right that the fuel quantity consumed per tow is not
all that large. However, the price of crude will impact every item in the
cost of operating an airplane. Over a period of decades, an aero tow has
cost about the same as a barrel of oil. That would suggest $70US is likely
for now with the dreaded $100 tow right round the corner.

Winches are part of the answer. Any winch can do what a tug does for a lot
of training flights like pattern tows for landing practice. A better winch
can get a glider high enough to find thermal lift while consuming only about
a quart of fuel. However, a winch cannot get a glider high into the
mountains where the good lift is - you would have to soar your way there.

BTW, Denise Layton, Editor of Soaring Magazine, needs some good winch photos
to use with a winch article I wrote. If you have any that could be used for
publication, send them to her.

Bill Daniels

[Shawn]

For Example John Smith wrote:
> 4000' tow? We strongly discourage tows above 2000' during the busy part of
> the day.
> Our 2000' tows haven't yet broken the $20 mark, but I suspect they will when
> we get our next 3000 gallons.....

In most of the western US, the airports are in the valleys and the good
early lift is in the mountains. When the valley is 8000 feet MSL and
the low hills are 11,000 feet MSL, a 4000 foot tow is fairly common.

Shawn

[HL Falbaum]

Actually, our numbers are "block to block" averaged over time. We usually
leave the mixture full rich, and have a Tost internal tow rope winch. Land
opposite take off direction, turn around, hook up and go!

Might be more for the instance of pulling a tow or two then waiting (or
shutting down) while someone else gets ready.
We are often able to get off tow at 2000, and some of us get off at 1500.

--
Hartley Falbaum

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
...
>
> "HL Falbaum" > wrote in message
> ...
>> At our site (867ft MSL) in hot, humid Georgia we use about 1.5 gal for
> the
>> average 3000 ft tow. Our 265 hp Pawnee is STC'd for auto gas, which we
> have
>> used for about the past 5 years or so without difficulty. I just bought
> some
>> Avgas for a Mooney at 3.85/gal.
>> So worst case 4.00/gal, 2 gal for 4000 ft = $8.00
>> As always, fuel is the least expensive part of operating an airplane
> (within
>> certain limits of use), and the fixed costs are the most expensive.
>>
>> --
>> Hartley Falbaum
>> Mid Georgia Soaring Assn, USA
>>
> I'd bet that while 1.5 Gal is what the tow itself consumes, the average
> including warm up taxi and descent will be closer to twice that. We
> frequently tow for 20 minutes or so to 10 - 12K feet to reach lift over
> the
> Rockies so fuel costs are going to hit us harder.
>
> Mogas is a good solution if your engine/tug combination has a STC and if
> you
> can find it without ethanol. That's getting harder all the time.
>
> But, you are basically right that the fuel quantity consumed per tow is
> not
> all that large. However, the price of crude will impact every item in the
> cost of operating an airplane. Over a period of decades, an aero tow has
> cost about the same as a barrel of oil. That would suggest $70US is
> likely
> for now with the dreaded $100 tow right round the corner.
>
> Winches are part of the answer. Any winch can do what a tug does for a
> lot
> of training flights like pattern tows for landing practice. A better
> winch
> can get a glider high enough to find thermal lift while consuming only
> about
> a quart of fuel. However, a winch cannot get a glider high into the
> mountains where the good lift is - you would have to soar your way there.
>
> BTW, Denise Layton, Editor of Soaring Magazine, needs some good winch
> photos
> to use with a winch article I wrote. If you have any that could be used
> for
> publication, send them to her.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[[email protected]]

Stewart,
100% concurrence about guys in expensive gliders complaining about
cost of a tow. Especially since a round of golf costs this and isn't
nearly as much fun!

Dean

[Stewart Kissel]

At 21:42 31 August 2005, Hl Falbaum wrote:
>Actually, our numbers are 'block to block' averaged
>over time. We usually
>leave the mixture full rich, and have a Tost internal
>tow rope winch. Land
>opposite take off direction, turn around, hook up and
>go!


Guenther Jacobs at Parowan has refined his technique
one step past this...the glider is staged on the active
with the second rope hooked to it, pilot strapped in
and ready. The towplane lands facing the glider, taxis
up and drops it rope on the side of the runway, spins
around and is hooked up. Tightens the rope and goes.
Hard to waste time on the ground this way.

[Jeremy Zawodny]

Stewart Kissel wrote:
> At 21:42 31 August 2005, Hl Falbaum wrote:
>
> Guenther Jacobs at Parowan has refined his technique
> one step past this...the glider is staged on the active
> with the second rope hooked to it, pilot strapped in
> and ready. The towplane lands facing the glider, taxis
> up and drops it rope on the side of the runway, spins
> around and is hooked up. Tightens the rope and goes.
> Hard to waste time on the ground this way.

He used that technique quite a bit during the contest it seems. But
when a group of us flew there a week later, we were a bit more lazy
about it.

Then again, most of us were taking higher tows anyway. Damned smoke and
inversion!

Jeremy

[Stewart Kissel]

At 21:42 31 August 2005, Hl Falbaum wrote:
>Actually, our numbers are 'block to block' averaged
>over time. We usually
>leave the mixture full rich, and have a Tost internal
>tow rope winch. Land
>opposite take off direction, turn around, hook up and
>go!


Guenther Jacobs at Parowan has refined his technique
one step past this...the glider is staged on the active
with the second rope hooked to it, pilot strapped in
and ready. The towplane lands facing the glider, taxis
up and drops it rope on the side of the runway, spins
around and is hooked up. Tightens the rope and goes.
Hard to waste time on the ground this way.

[[email protected]]

In my honest opinion the cost of av-gas for tows is really not the
major cost of operation. But for the sake of doing the math, an aero
tow to 3k and return to airport with a 250hp engine might take .25 hr @
12 gph. Let's say this fuel today costs $3.25 per gallon that's about
$9.75 per 15 min aerotow, 2-3 years ago it would have been about $6.00
using the same math and $2.00 per ga gas. Let's say this tow plane
uses 20 gph then we're at $16.25 for a .25 hr 3k tow. On a $60 3k tow
that's about 15-25% cost of operation. Everythig else goes up now
also.

This is simply a pay me now and I'll be around next year. I own a 10
truck ( big Peterbilts & tankers) company I'm today @ 22% fuel
surcharge - 25% tomorow and probably 26-28% buy the end of the month.
We use about 180,000 ga of diesel fuel per year. Pay me now and I'll
be around to help put food on our tables next year.

This does put the hurts to the new pilots learning and the schools
losing the business and adds to our comute costs to the gliderports.
Hope their around next yea I sure want to be doing this for many years
to come.

[Frank Whiteley]

Insurance says no.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

[Tony Verhulst]

Re: Dual tows

Frank Whiteley wrote:
> Insurance says no.

For years, each fall our flat land club would move lock stock and barrel
about 200 km into the mountains for a few weeks. Most of the gliders
were relocated using dual tows with one glider on a 200 ft rope and the
other on a 300 footer - one glider would be on the left on high tow, the
other right on low tow. It worked great.

One day, being curious about this, we asked our insurance agent. We were
told that the policy did not specifically forbid this and if there was a
claim resulting from a dual tow, it would probably be paid. However, he
said that it would be highly likely that the policy would not be renewed
the following year. We haven't done a dual tow since. Bummer, man.

Tony V.

[Paul]

You shouldn't have asked :-)


"Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
...
> Re: Dual tows
>
> Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > Insurance says no.
>
> For years, each fall our flat land club would move lock stock and barrel
> about 200 km into the mountains for a few weeks. Most of the gliders
> were relocated using dual tows with one glider on a 200 ft rope and the
> other on a 300 footer - one glider would be on the left on high tow, the
> other right on low tow. It worked great.
>
> One day, being curious about this, we asked our insurance agent. We were
> told that the policy did not specifically forbid this and if there was a
> claim resulting from a dual tow, it would probably be paid. However, he
> said that it would be highly likely that the policy would not be renewed
> the following year. We haven't done a dual tow since. Bummer, man.
>
> Tony V.

[[email protected]]

Thank goodness I fly at a place where a 1,500 foot tow is usually more
than enough.

[Frank Whiteley]

ditto, or a winch launch;^)

[Eric Greenwell]

Stewart Kissel wrote:

> I don't see to many tow operations
> getting rich, and they will get squeezed. I suppose
> those with deep pockets can go to self-launching, but
> not sure if that is really saving money in the long
> run.

It does take deep pockets to afford an 18 meter self-launcher, but most
of the cost is the very fine glider you are buying. There are 13 meter
and 15 meter self-launchers that cost less than that 50:1 18 meter
glider(even if the 18 m glider doesn't have engine). So, cost is not
necessarily an obstacle.

> The long drives many of us do to get to our soaring
> spots are going to take a bigger bite as well.

A self-launcher may let you avoid that drive entirely, if you can soar
from your local airport. I do that, and it saves a 220 mile round trip
to the gliderport. Alternatively, you may be able to motor to the good
soaring, even if the local airport is a sink hole. "Traveling" in a
motorglider is relatively cheap, even in my ASH 26 E. I've made several
150+ mile retrieves (no soaring), using about 2 gallons in the process.
This is a lot less fuel than my mini-van would use for the ~400 mile
round-trip retrieve.

Of course, there are other good reasons to own a self-launcher,
regardless which way the finances figure out.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Jeremy Zawodny]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> A self-launcher may let you avoid that drive entirely, if you can soar
> from your local airport. I do that, and it saves a 220 mile round trip
> to the gliderport. Alternatively, you may be able to motor to the good
> soaring, even if the local airport is a sink hole. "Traveling" in a
> motorglider is relatively cheap, even in my ASH 26 E. I've made several
> 150+ mile retrieves (no soaring), using about 2 gallons in the process.
> This is a lot less fuel than my mini-van would use for the ~400 mile
> round-trip retrieve.

Speaking of traveling in an ASH-26E, have you ever seen how much stuff
Kempton manages to cram into his?

He'll fly around the Great Basin for a few seemingly using only what's
in the aircraft.

Jeremy

[Eric Greenwell]

Jeremy Zawodny wrote:

> Speaking of traveling in an ASH-26E, have you ever seen how much stuff
> Kempton manages to cram into his?
>
> He'll fly around the Great Basin for a few seemingly using only what's
> in the aircraft.

Kempton was one of the pilots I had in mind, though he is an extreme
case of using the glider to travel to soaring. I admire his efforts, but
haven't persuaded myself to emulate them! The two ASH 26 E pilots that
fly out of Ramona (near San Diego) for soaring in the Warner Springs
area are probably a better model for most pilots.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Tom]

I used to figure the operating cost of my Tahoe at 75c per mile. Now,
it is more like 85-90c per mile, making the round trip to the nearest
glider port cost about $200. On top of that meals and, perhaps, a motel
room.

But that is not the worst part, which is the best soaring weather often
does not happen on the weekends. I can leave my office and be airborne
in under an hour. This accounts for about half of my flying this year.

Tom