Re: New Orleans: Fly low and slow over Convention Center to air drop?

[Darrel Toepfer]

wrote:

> One girl has been raped.

Two from what I read from a first responder, this was inside the
Superdome... The dead showed up on teevee today but they were there
before that from what was said as well...

[[email protected]]

The Convention Center is not the same place as the SuperDome.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=convention+center,+new+orleans&ll=29.942787,-90.064508&spn=0.049877,0.052674&num=10&start=0&hl=en

[Darrel Toepfer]

wrote:

> The Convention Center is not the same place as the SuperDome.

Mybad:

"30 people have now died in the Superdome, including one suicide and
there have been at least 2 rapes."

[sfb]

School is still out on the suicide. There are reports the person was
just trying to jump from level to level.

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>> The Convention Center is not the same place as the SuperDome.
>
> Mybad:
>
> "30 people have now died in the Superdome, including one suicide and
> there have been at least 2 rapes."

[[email protected]]

Let's try and keep this topic focused on getting an air drop arranged.

These people need water purification kits NOW. They have no drinkable
water. They are not being served by the rescue services. There is no
bottled water.

If I can't find someone here willing to step up and help, where should
I look for a pilot and plane?

[Denny]

The only thing you will get to drop is on your face on a runway with a
knee in your back. You are so far behind the curve I'm not even going
to waste time attempting to explain it to you... You get a blue star
for good intentions and definitely a zero for knowledge... Do a lot
more reading my friend.. Start with learning the meaning of what
restricted airspace is, and then look up what action you had better
take when an F16 fires a flare across your nose...

denny

[john smith]

wrote:
> Let's try and keep this topic focused on getting an air drop arranged.
> These people need water purification kits NOW. They have no drinkable
> water. They are not being served by the rescue services. There is no
> bottled water.

What makes you think those people you are going to airdrop to are smart
enough to understand how to use the kits to purify drinking water?

[[email protected]]

I am familiar with restricted airspace. I live in Washington DC and
have seen his multicoloured maps of the area.

For New Orleans, obivously when the Pres visits or flies over is not
the time to be in the air space. I personally think he shouldn't visit
the area now. If he really does want to visit, he could slip in
'undercover' in a National Guard uniform. After he leaves if could be
made public.

As for being forced to land, I would take that and run with it
publically. It would embarrass the government that they haven't yet run
a few C-130's over the area and kicked out MRE pallets and water kits.

This is not rock science. At the current speed of evactions, many
survivers will be dead by the time a bus arrives for them.

Blanket the damn area with MREs and water kits from the sky.

[[email protected]]

The kits have picture diagrams for usage on the packaging.

Once one person figures out how to make drinkable water, I'm sure
others will copy what he/she did.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> The kits have picture diagrams for usage on the packaging.
>
> Once one person figures out how to make drinkable water, I'm sure
> others will copy what he/she did.

The impression I get (albeit from 1200 miles away) is that we're going
to start seeing a real turnaround today and tomorrow as resources begin
to flood in. The moment for a "rogue" effort like this was probably a
day or two ago when the feds were still trying to find their asses with
both hands. As it is, there's a risk that doing something like this
will lead to a huge mess as officials overreact to the challenge of
their authority. It's a dman shame because even if a 172 can't pluck
someone off a roof, it can at least come down low and slow and drop
basic supplies. After the dust settles it would be a good idea to sit
down and think about how we could make it easier for the authorities to
utilize GA for disaster relief. I suspect most of them are barely aware
of our existence.

-cwk.

[Dave S]

You need to quit trying to freelance and contribute to an existing
relief effort. You are asking someone to essentially throw their pilots
license in the trash by assisting you in your well intentioned but
misguided ploy. Their certificate would be revoked on an emergency
basis, and likely permanently revoked. If you are lucky, the drop wont
hit someone on the head, killing them.

The COLD HARD TRUTH is that many people bear SOME of the responsibility
for the situation they are in.

They were told to get out. SOME couldnt. Many CHOSE not to.

Prudence dictates that you keep a ready supply of your prescription
meds, and TAKE THE MED BOTTLES WITH YOU when you leave home.

Common decency says dont shoot at the goddamn helicopters trying to
bring you food and water, and give you a ride out.

You cant fly relief in until the hurricane is gone. You cant truck
relief in over a demolished bridge. You cant snap your fingers and make
a division of guardsmen appear in 2 hours. It takes time to mobilize
resources.

Yes.. You are right.. people are dying. People died on the bus ride to
houston last night, and no, this wasn't on the news, and no, its not
heresay.

Send your 4 grand to the red cross and if you want to help, call them
and ask what YOU can do to help, UNDER THEIR DIRECTION. If you were
interested in helping people, you would have joined up with such an
organization ahead of time, being proactive, rather than REACTING after
the fact.

Dave


wrote:
> The kits have picture diagrams for usage on the packaging.
>
> Once one person figures out how to make drinkable water, I'm sure
> others will copy what he/she did.
>

[John Doe]

Wow, you have internet access inside the convention center?

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I really can't stand the situation that is occuring in the Convention
> Center. There are about two thousand at the Convention Center with NO
> police or rescue personel onsite. Babies have no milk. At least two
> dead bodies are there. An SUV with one police officer drove by and
> raced away. One girl has been raped.
>
> I don't know what the current flight restrictions are, but I'm looking
> for pilot with plane who is willing to fly low and slow over the
> Convention Center and drop out water purification kits, baby milk,
> MREs, body bags, wire ties (for restraint).
>
> There is a nurse in the crowd who needs Heart Medications and Insulin.
>
> Campers use systems of two bags to filter the water. Put dirty water in
> the top bag and it filters into the lower bag. Add some Emergency Water
> Purifier (http://www.windupradio.com/Pristine/) and the water is
> drinkable. One kit can make 60 gallons of drinking water.
>
> It is obivous that the government can't handle this situation. I'm
> willing to step up with 1000$ right now for an air drop and will have
> 4000$ available by Wednesday. The money can be used for fuel, items to
> drop, etc.
>
> Who is willing to step up with a plane and willing to go the extra
> mile?
>
>
> Duncan Moore
>
>

[John Doe]

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>> The Convention Center is not the same place as the SuperDome.
>
> Mybad:
>
> "30 people have now died in the Superdome, including one suicide and there
> have been at least 2 rapes."

Source? (TV sensationalism?)

[John Doe]

The airspace has already been declared off limits and you're going to need
to pay me much more than your offer for me to risk my ability to fly for a
case of water. Oh, by the way, some thugs would probably just steal the
water and then try to sell it for whatever they could get for it and it
wouldn't meet the intended purpose.

Calm down and realize help is on the way.

Maybe more of these people should have heeded the warnings and "MANDATORY
EVACUATION" that was DIRECTED prior to the storm.


> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I am familiar with restricted airspace. I live in Washington DC and
> have seen his multicoloured maps of the area.
>
> For New Orleans, obivously when the Pres visits or flies over is not
> the time to be in the air space. I personally think he shouldn't visit
> the area now. If he really does want to visit, he could slip in
> 'undercover' in a National Guard uniform. After he leaves if could be
> made public.
>
> As for being forced to land, I would take that and run with it
> publically. It would embarrass the government that they haven't yet run
> a few C-130's over the area and kicked out MRE pallets and water kits.
>
> This is not rock science. At the current speed of evactions, many
> survivers will be dead by the time a bus arrives for them.
>
> Blanket the damn area with MREs and water kits from the sky.
>

[sfb]

Katrina is an enormous challenge in logistics. New Orleans is at the
southern end of a very large damaged area. It takes time to clear roads,
inspect bridges, etc. I saw one photo where every single power pole for
a half mile or so was snapped off and lying across the road. Whether
that was a main road is unknown, but clearing that kind of damage takes
time.

You can't just run the National Guard in without food, water, fuel for
vehicles, places to rest else the NG becomes refugees within a couple of
days.

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I really can't stand the situation that is occuring in the Convention
> Center. There are about two thousand at the Convention Center with NO
> police or rescue personel onsite. Babies have no milk. At least two
> dead bodies are there. An SUV with one police officer drove by and
> raced away. One girl has been raped.
>

[George Patterson]

Dave S wrote:
>
> Prudence dictates that you keep a ready supply of your prescription
> meds, and TAKE THE MED BOTTLES WITH YOU when you leave home.

Some meds (insulin, for example) require constant refrigeration.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[john smith]

Isn't it interesting that just this morning, the the governor of
Lousiana finally issued the order to shot to kill looters.

[Darrel Toepfer]

wrote:

> The kits have picture diagrams for usage on the packaging.
>
> Once one person figures out how to make drinkable water, I'm sure
> others will copy what he/she did.

Walk across the Mississippi river bridge, good clean water can be had on
the other side... Thats where all the support stuff is being driven in
from...

[Darrel Toepfer]

John Doe wrote:

> Source? (TV sensationalism?)

First responder via satphone...

[[email protected]]

> Send your 4 grand to the red cross and if you want to help,
> call them and ask what YOU can do to help,
> UNDER THEIR DIRECTION.
> If you were interested in helping people,
> you would have joined up with such an organization ahead of time,
> being proactive, rather than REACTING after the fact.

I am a local volunteer for the Red Cross computer, networking, and
communications systems. I am on low standby to go into the area if
needed. But computers don't save people, so they keep us out of the
area until the crisis settles a bit.

I also train with my local ham radio community for emergency
communications and assisting with public events.

Many CHOSE to stay? These are poor people without cars or poorly
working cars. They weren't offered a bus/train ride to a shelter above
sea level. The only ppl that could get away was well off people who
could pack up their SUV and go rent a motel room for 50$/night. I don't
recall too much warning over the levies breaking before Katrina hit. A
few did say it could. But it wasn't impressed on the population that
they would be underwater for several weeks.

Yes, these are poor people. There are bad apples in the crowd who
managed to get their hands on guns from what I can only assume was pawn
and gun stores which had easy to access merchandise.

The hurricane is over now, so there is air access now. The Air Force
has pushed MREs / survival kits out of C-130s over Afghanistan and
other places before. There are pallets designed for this type of
mission. We are talking about 6 hrs to get a plane with the pallets
over the area. The few ppl that might be killed by getting hit on the
head would far out weight the lives saved by the supplies.

As for bridges out, air drops allow ppl to survive until either
temporary bridges can be brought in or the existing ones repaired. The
Army has several different bridge systems that could be used. They have
been tested in combat. I've used a pontoon bridge before. I'd like to
assume convoys of gravel trucks from around the country are on their
way in to fill/raise the roads as needed and turn some fields into
staging / temporary housing areas, but I doubt it.

Right now I wouldn't be evacuating via helicopter anyone other than
sick children and serious injured. Those helicopters lifting ppl off of
buildings could be lowering a survival kit with food, water, water
purification, infant formula, field toilet bags, tent, a wind-up radio,
and a laminated information sheet. They could survive at at least a
week or two. Tell 'em this is what the troops in Iraq have to put up
with. Suck it up. And, to be blunt, I'm make rescue of the elderly a
lower priority. As in my system of ethics, the rescue of a child has
more 'Good' than rescuing an elderly person who has lived a long life
already.

This isn't just a crowd of people at the Dome w/ the red cross, but
people all over the city. Central food/water distribution isn't going
to work. They will be mobbed. The Convention Center 5 miles from the
Dome has NO supplies, NO aid people, NO police, NO National Guard. NO
Buses to get out. NO Food / Water deliveries. And this is 2K people.
The Convention Center, btw, isn't underwater.

I'm sorry for ranting on about this in your newsgroup. The BBC report
of infants being raped at the Convention Center just pushed me over the
edge. I know a private drop is probably out of the question now, I just
hope the officials have a damn good reason for not air dropping
supplies all over the city as their first response.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

After the Tsunami, I was working on a team to a design air deployable
survival systems for natural disasters.

One design was a package of four body bags, ID bracelet w/ a low power
transponder radio to go around the arm/leg/neck, a folded shovel,
Polaroid camera, dna swab, burial marker, gloves and bleach. Picture
instructions enclosed: photo the face, attach one picture to the
bracelet, take the dna swab, put ID bracelet on body, either bury with
or without body bag. Put the marker in the ground, with the picture and
dna sample attached. Gets one disease source out of the way, and allows
future retrieval / identification for his/her family and relatives. The
transponder radio would only squawk when pinged from nearby and is
mainly to find buried bodies whose markers are missing. We got 6 month
to 1 year battery life out of the system. I know this wouldn't be of
help in New Orleans as they are underwater.

Another design dropped a pallet by parachute that contained a tank on
the top to pour dirty water in and a lower tank/tap to dispense potable
drinking water. By being big and heavy, it forced the community to work
together and share the water. Another design added a solar heat
collector on top that used part of the water to cook rice or a high
density food pellets that was already in the unit. This was dispensed
slowly along side the water. By being cooked with water, the
rice/pellets expand and allow feeding of more people than just a stack
of power bars.

There was talk of adding a two way radio phone to the unit and even an
auto deploying antenna to turn the unit into a two way radio / data
network repeater w/ sat link. The networks would be for use when the
rescue personnel get to the scene and provide them reliable
communications.

A smaller air dropped water purification unit, briefcase sized, had a
collapsed frame that just required pulling it out for it to expand and
lock into place. Think of a fat hourglass shape. Folded canvas buckets
for filling the unit were included along with collapsed 1 gallon
plastic water containers to allow the families to take the water with
them. The canvas buckets are V shaped, to discourage their use with the
cleaned water.

Both units had several layers of filters and added chemicals at a
consistant rate, requiring nothing more than the user to pour water in.
We were even testing a detection system that would cause a skull and
cross bones to appear when it sensed bad things in the supposely clean
water. There was talk of making the unit's tap lock up as well or
trigger the addition of sulfur to the bad water to discourage its use.

After the Tsunami faded into history, we got less and less interest in
people to fund the project. The units would have to be manufactured and
sitting at strategic airports around the world waiting for the next
disaster to occur. Retainer contracts would have to be signed with
necessary air crews / Air Force that can do an air drop with 6 hrs
notice. People don't like to donate for supplies / equipment that sit
on shelves hopefully gathering dust. They don't get that warm and fuzzy
feeling.

I'm of the "an ounce of prevention...." mindset.

What saddens me most is that I haven't seen any ingenuity from the
stranded people. They are surrounded by water and in a hot / sunny
location. Making a solar water purifier would take two coat hangers, a
black plastic trash bag, and a small container to catch the drinkable
water. Didn't any of them watch MacGyver?

Anyway, thank you for letting rant.

Oh, and if you think the TFR b/c of AF1 are annoying, I live under the
route Marine One takes from the White House to Camp David. Let's just
say that flying model airplanes in the field beside your house on the
wrong day can cause a lot of flashing lights to show up.


d

[Greg Copeland]

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:34:04 -0700, dunkthegeek wrote:

[snip]
> Many CHOSE to stay? These are poor people without cars or poorly working
> cars. They weren't offered a bus/train ride to a shelter above sea
> level. The only ppl that could get away was well off people who could
> pack up their SUV and go rent a motel room for 50$/night. I don't recall
> too much warning over the levies breaking before Katrina hit. A few did
> say it could. But it wasn't impressed on the population that they would
> be underwater for several weeks.

Reports from those that lived in the area immediately prior to the storm
hitting state that at both the city and state level, local media made it
known that those that could not afford to leave would have transportation
provided. All they needed to do was either make a phone call to establish
a pickup point or go to one of the previously established pickup points.
With something as simple as a phone call, many, many people could have
been bussed to much safer areas before the storm ever hit.

The above information was tactfully repeated, by the head of FEMA in
several interviews. This is why aid is so slow because FEMA never
expected so many people to willingly choose to stay in the area. This is
direct from the head of FEMA.

Between hearing news reports from people that actually lived there and
hearing the head of FEMA state as much, I'm apt to believe things could of
been much, much better for everyone is people would have simply picked up
a dang phone.


Greg

[Greg Copeland]

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:58:27 +0000, john smith wrote:

> Isn't it interesting that just this morning, the the governor of
> Lousiana finally issued the order to shot to kill looters.

They didn't do it earlier because too many police would have been shot by
other cops.


Greg

[Darrel Toepfer]

Greg Copeland wrote:

> I'm apt to believe things could of been much, much better for everyone
> is people would have simply picked up a dang phone.

Poor people have phones? Must be what keeps 'em poor...

[[email protected]]

>From Drudge
The Caption Was:
Why Didn't You Deploy The Buses During The Mandantory Evacuation,
Mayor?...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015

[Greg Copeland]

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:19:44 -0500, Darrel Toepfer wrote:

> Greg Copeland wrote:
>
>> I'm apt to believe things could of been much, much better for everyone
> > is people would have simply picked up a dang phone.
>
> Poor people have phones? Must be what keeps 'em poor...

I didn't say "their phone", I said, "a dang phone". Meaning, any phone
would do. Phones are not exactly hard to come by if someone is really
determined to make a call.

Greg

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Greg Copeland" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:19:44 -0500, Darrel Toepfer wrote:
>
>> Greg Copeland wrote:
>>
>>> I'm apt to believe things could of been much, much better for everyone
>> > is people would have simply picked up a dang phone.
>>
>> Poor people have phones? Must be what keeps 'em poor...
>
> I didn't say "their phone", I said, "a dang phone". Meaning, any phone
> would do. Phones are not exactly hard to come by if someone is really
> determined to make a call.
>
> Greg
>

I bet Darrel would be surprised how many of the poor people have not only
phones but also cell phones.

[Darrel Toepfer]

wrote:

>>From Drudge
> The Caption Was:
> Why Didn't You Deploy The Buses During The Mandantory Evacuation,
> Mayor?...
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015

There are a bunch of city buses not far away either...

The mayor was pretty perturbed today during a WWL interview. You can
only pass the buck so many times...

[Darrel Toepfer]

Greg Copeland wrote:

> I didn't say "their phone", I said, "a dang phone". Meaning, any phone
> would do. Phones are not exactly hard to come by if someone is really
> determined to make a call.

Not alot of payphones left in Louisiana, Bellsouth has removed them due
to lack of usage, or the police have requested their removal due to drug
deals. Most businesses don't allow people off the street to use their
phone. How well do you kneaux your neighbors?

[W P Dixon]

I believe pay phones are disappearing because even poor people have cell
phones. I know alot of people that have a cell phone but do not have a
regular phone in the house..because the cell phone plan is cheaper. And
these folks ain't rich ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> Greg Copeland wrote:
>
>> I didn't say "their phone", I said, "a dang phone". Meaning, any phone
>> would do. Phones are not exactly hard to come by if someone is really
>> determined to make a call.
>
> Not alot of payphones left in Louisiana, Bellsouth has removed them due to
> lack of usage, or the police have requested their removal due to drug
> deals. Most businesses don't allow people off the street to use their
> phone. How well do you kneaux your neighbors?

[Dave S]

George Patterson wrote:


> Some meds (insulin, for example) require constant refrigeration.
>

Actually, insulin can last up to 30 days at "room" temperature. At one
of the hospitals I work at we have not been refrigerating OPENED/USED
insulin bottles for over 3 years now. We put it in the patient's med
drawer in a med cart station, rather than leave it in the fridge where
it may become a "community bottle" (increasing the chances someone may
re-enter it with a used needle from a different patient).

Dave

[Newps]

W P Dixon wrote:
> I believe pay phones are disappearing because even poor people have cell
> phones. I know alot of people that have a cell phone but do not have a
> regular phone in the house..because the cell phone plan is cheaper. And
> these folks ain't rich ;)

It will be three years in October since I got rid of my landline phone.
I just decided I wasn't going to pay those taxes anymore. For about
the last year I have had an internet phone from Vonage. It costs me
about $17 a month and the area code for that phone is from the St. Paul,
MN; area(651) so all of our relatives can call us toll free.
Unbelievable how well it works.

[Dave Stadt]

"sfb" > wrote in message news:DwZRe.8$Sx4.7@trnddc06...
> Katrina is an enormous challenge in logistics. New Orleans is at the
> southern end of a very large damaged area. It takes time to clear roads,
> inspect bridges, etc. I saw one photo where every single power pole for
> a half mile or so was snapped off and lying across the road. Whether
> that was a main road is unknown, but clearing that kind of damage takes
> time.
>
> You can't just run the National Guard in without food, water, fuel for
> vehicles, places to rest else the NG becomes refugees within a couple of
> days.

Seems I remember seeing on quite a few occasions the NG bringing all that
stuff with them. Do they now stay at Hiltons and have their meals catered?


>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >I really can't stand the situation that is occuring in the Convention
> > Center. There are about two thousand at the Convention Center with NO
> > police or rescue personel onsite. Babies have no milk. At least two
> > dead bodies are there. An SUV with one police officer drove by and
> > raced away. One girl has been raped.
> >
>
>

[john smith]

Newps wrote:
> It will be three years in October since I got rid of my landline phone.
> I just decided I wasn't going to pay those taxes anymore. For about
> the last year I have had an internet phone from Vonage. It costs me
> about $17 a month and the area code for that phone is from the St. Paul,
> MN; area(651) so all of our relatives can call us toll free.
> Unbelievable how well it works.

How do you contact 911 when the broadband goes out?

[Newps]

john smith wrote:

> Newps wrote:
>
>> It will be three years in October since I got rid of my landline
>> phone. I just decided I wasn't going to pay those taxes anymore. For
>> about the last year I have had an internet phone from Vonage. It
>> costs me about $17 a month and the area code for that phone is from
>> the St. Paul, MN; area(651) so all of our relatives can call us toll
>> free. Unbelievable how well it works.
>
>
> How do you contact 911 when the broadband goes out?

Use one of the cell phones that's probably here.

[George Patterson]

Dave S wrote:
>
> Actually, insulin can last up to 30 days at "room" temperature.

How long does it last at 100 degrees?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[sfb]

You remember correctly, but it takes time to assemble troops in
armories, load vehicles, and move into the disaster areas clearing roads
and bridges of debris as necessary.

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "sfb" > wrote in message news:DwZRe.8$Sx4.7@trnddc06...
>> Katrina is an enormous challenge in logistics. New Orleans is at the
>> southern end of a very large damaged area. It takes time to clear
>> roads,
>> inspect bridges, etc. I saw one photo where every single power pole
>> for
>> a half mile or so was snapped off and lying across the road. Whether
>> that was a main road is unknown, but clearing that kind of damage
>> takes
>> time.
>>
>> You can't just run the National Guard in without food, water, fuel
>> for
>> vehicles, places to rest else the NG becomes refugees within a couple
>> of
>> days.
>
> Seems I remember seeing on quite a few occasions the NG bringing all
> that
> stuff with them. Do they now stay at Hiltons and have their meals
> catered?
>
>
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >I really can't stand the situation that is occuring in the
>> >Convention
>> > Center. There are about two thousand at the Convention Center with
>> > NO
>> > police or rescue personel onsite. Babies have no milk. At least two
>> > dead bodies are there. An SUV with one police officer drove by and
>> > raced away. One girl has been raped.
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

[Dave S]

well, considering body temp ranges from 97-99 on average.. I'd say quite
long.

Dave

George Patterson wrote:
> Dave S wrote:
>
>>
>> Actually, insulin can last up to 30 days at "room" temperature.
>
>
> How long does it last at 100 degrees?
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Dave S]

john smith wrote:
> How do you contact 911 when the broadband goes out?

The same way someone would if they didn't have a home phone.

Dave

[Dave Stadt]

"sfb" > wrote in message news:kS7Se.977$IT4.248@trnddc04...
> You remember correctly, but it takes time to assemble troops in
> armories, load vehicles, and move into the disaster areas clearing roads
> and bridges of debris as necessary.

Six days? That's nuts. Even Bush is saying the time to respond was far
beyond reasonable.

>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "sfb" > wrote in message news:DwZRe.8$Sx4.7@trnddc06...
> >> Katrina is an enormous challenge in logistics. New Orleans is at the
> >> southern end of a very large damaged area. It takes time to clear
> >> roads,
> >> inspect bridges, etc. I saw one photo where every single power pole
> >> for
> >> a half mile or so was snapped off and lying across the road. Whether
> >> that was a main road is unknown, but clearing that kind of damage
> >> takes
> >> time.
> >>
> >> You can't just run the National Guard in without food, water, fuel
> >> for
> >> vehicles, places to rest else the NG becomes refugees within a couple
> >> of
> >> days.
> >
> > Seems I remember seeing on quite a few occasions the NG bringing all
> > that
> > stuff with them. Do they now stay at Hiltons and have their meals
> > catered?
> >
> >
> >>
> >> > wrote in message
> >> ups.com...
> >> >I really can't stand the situation that is occuring in the
> >> >Convention
> >> > Center. There are about two thousand at the Convention Center with
> >> > NO
> >> > police or rescue personel onsite. Babies have no milk. At least two
> >> > dead bodies are there. An SUV with one police officer drove by and
> >> > raced away. One girl has been raped.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

[[email protected]]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "sfb" > wrote in message news:kS7Se.977$IT4.248@trnddc04...
> > You remember correctly, but it takes time to assemble troops in
> > armories, load vehicles, and move into the disaster areas clearing roads
> > and bridges of debris as necessary.
>
> Six days? That's nuts. Even Bush is saying the time to respond was far
> beyond reasonable.

It took 9/11 for us to take terrorism seriously. Perhaps now we will
take civil defense seriously. I live in Boston and while we're not
below sea level, a 20' storm surge (let along dirty bomb or attack on
an LNG terminal) would make one hell of a mess. Now I suspect there
will be a lot more people asking the local gov't just what the plan
would be should we be staring down a similar barrel.

-cwk.

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Dave Stadt wrote:
> > "sfb" > wrote in message news:kS7Se.977$IT4.248@trnddc04...
> > > You remember correctly, but it takes time to assemble troops in
> > > armories, load vehicles, and move into the disaster areas clearing
roads
> > > and bridges of debris as necessary.
> >
> > Six days? That's nuts. Even Bush is saying the time to respond was far
> > beyond reasonable.
>
> It took 9/11 for us to take terrorism seriously. Perhaps now we will
> take civil defense seriously. I live in Boston and while we're not
> below sea level, a 20' storm surge (let along dirty bomb or attack on
> an LNG terminal) would make one hell of a mess. Now I suspect there

> will be a lot more people asking the local gov't just what the plan
> would be should we be staring down a similar barrel.
>
> -cwk.

Hopefully from the current disorganized mess some good will come. NO, LA
and the feds were out smoking dope or doing something other that what they
should have been doing. NY handled 9/11 infinitely better and they had no
warning. Granted, the scale is much different. The response to the most
current disaster after several years of homeland security gibberish is
atrocious.

[Joe Feise]

Greg Copeland wrote on 09/02/05 12:36:

> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:58:27 +0000, john smith wrote:
>
>
>>Isn't it interesting that just this morning, the the governor of
>>Lousiana finally issued the order to shot to kill looters.
>
>
> They didn't do it earlier because too many police would have been shot by
> other cops.


Just yesterday, a local news guy who was stuck in one hotel there
explained how it came cops were seen "looting":
Some doctors treating people in the hotel asked the cops to get medicine
from the Walgreens across the street...
To the TV viewer safely at home, this of course looked like looting, but
in reality, it was helping to save lives.

-Joe

[Peter R.]

Dave S > wrote:

> well, considering body temp ranges from 97-99 on average.

Are you comparing the state of medicine sitting in a bottle on a shelf to
medicine injected into the body?

--
Peter


















----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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[sfb]

Isn't the point demanding instant results when things take time and is
often the case, too much time.

We tend to forget many of the challenges like they can't work at night
because of the lack of lights. Driving at night is very dangerous
because of the destruction of stop signs and traffic signals.

People can't even agree on a time line. Katrina hit Monday and there is
video of the NG all over the New Orleans on Friday which seems closer to
four days than six.

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "sfb" > wrote in message
> news:kS7Se.977$IT4.248@trnddc04...
>> You remember correctly, but it takes time to assemble troops in
>> armories, load vehicles, and move into the disaster areas clearing
>> roads
>> and bridges of debris as necessary.
>
> Six days? That's nuts. Even Bush is saying the time to respond was
> far
> beyond reasonable.
>
>>
>> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "sfb" > wrote in message
>> > news:DwZRe.8$Sx4.7@trnddc06...
>> >> Katrina is an enormous challenge in logistics. New Orleans is at
>> >> the
>> >> southern end of a very large damaged area. It takes time to clear
>> >> roads,
>> >> inspect bridges, etc. I saw one photo where every single power
>> >> pole
>> >> for
>> >> a half mile or so was snapped off and lying across the road.
>> >> Whether
>> >> that was a main road is unknown, but clearing that kind of damage
>> >> takes
>> >> time.
>> >>
>> >> You can't just run the National Guard in without food, water, fuel
>> >> for
>> >> vehicles, places to rest else the NG becomes refugees within a
>> >> couple
>> >> of
>> >> days.
>> >
>> > Seems I remember seeing on quite a few occasions the NG bringing
>> > all
>> > that
>> > stuff with them. Do they now stay at Hiltons and have their meals
>> > catered?
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> > wrote in message
>> >> ups.com...
>> >> >I really can't stand the situation that is occuring in the
>> >> >Convention
>> >> > Center. There are about two thousand at the Convention Center
>> >> > with
>> >> > NO
>> >> > police or rescue personel onsite. Babies have no milk. At least
>> >> > two
>> >> > dead bodies are there. An SUV with one police officer drove by
>> >> > and
>> >> > raced away. One girl has been raped.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

[gregg]

sfb wrote:

> Isn't the point demanding instant results when things take time and is
> often the case, too much time.
>
> We tend to forget many of the challenges like they can't work at night
> because of the lack of lights. Driving at night is very dangerous
> because of the destruction of stop signs and traffic signals.
>
> People can't even agree on a time line. Katrina hit Monday and there is
> video of the NG all over the New Orleans on Friday which seems closer to
> four days than six.

Not only that, it's not like there was NO action between Monday and Friday.
For example:

I don't have all the details, but I do know an AF Combat Controller team
from Hurlburt (Happy Hurbie Airplane Patch to some of us) went in to New
Orleans Airport on Wednesday to open it up for relief flights. Here's the
news release on that, dated 31 August:

HURLBURT FIELD, Fla. - Air Force Special Operations Command will fly an
MC-130 aircraft into New Orleans International Airport tonight with a small
team of special operations forces to work to reopen the runway.

A team of combat controllers and a small medical team will work to establish
operations at the airport, which has no electricity or air traffic control.
Combat controllers are certified air traffic controllers and special
operators who can open airfields deep behind enemy lines or in other
hazardous areas.

The combat controllers will set self-powered lights and other navigational
aids, then function as air traffic controllers with portable radios so that
other military aircraft can land and help evacuate around 2,500 ill, or
injured persons from the New Orleans area.

AFSOC has also flown more than 34 aircraft to Jackson, Miss., to support
Hurricane Katrina relief.

The deployed aircraft include 19 HH-60 Pave Hawk rescue helicopters
specifically designed to find and recover individuals in hazardous areas.
AFSOC has also deployed 11 C-130 aircraft with various special mission
capabilities, including helicopter refueling and the ability to operate
from dirt or unimproved airfields.

AFSOC has sent pararescuemen and combat controllers to Jackson to work in
conjunction with the aircraft. Pararescuemen are highly trained emergency
medical technician special operators. Combat controllers and pararescuemen
are accustomed to operating in the most difficult and hostile conditions
and are trained in numerous special operations skills such as SCUBA and
parachute operations.


--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[Chris Ehlbeck]

I did look the other day and the TFR was surface to 5,000. So no low and
slow. That settles it.
--
Chris Ehlbeck, PP-ASEL
"It's a license to learn, have fun and buy really expensive hamburgers."

"John Doe" > wrote in message
news:ZvZRe.8401$8q.3935@lakeread01...
> The airspace has already been declared off limits and you're going to need
> to pay me much more than your offer for me to risk my ability to fly for a
> case of water. Oh, by the way, some thugs would probably just steal the
> water and then try to sell it for whatever they could get for it and it
> wouldn't meet the intended purpose.
>
> Calm down and realize help is on the way.
>
> Maybe more of these people should have heeded the warnings and "MANDATORY
> EVACUATION" that was DIRECTED prior to the storm.
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >I am familiar with restricted airspace. I live in Washington DC and
> > have seen his multicoloured maps of the area.
> >
> > For New Orleans, obivously when the Pres visits or flies over is not
> > the time to be in the air space. I personally think he shouldn't visit
> > the area now. If he really does want to visit, he could slip in
> > 'undercover' in a National Guard uniform. After he leaves if could be
> > made public.
> >
> > As for being forced to land, I would take that and run with it
> > publically. It would embarrass the government that they haven't yet run
> > a few C-130's over the area and kicked out MRE pallets and water kits.
> >
> > This is not rock science. At the current speed of evactions, many
> > survivers will be dead by the time a bus arrives for them.
> >
> > Blanket the damn area with MREs and water kits from the sky.
> >
>
>

[Darrel Toepfer]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> I bet Darrel would be surprised how many of the poor people have not only
> phones but also cell phones.

I used to be in a very competitive pager and later cabletv business
(only overbuilt community in LA), in the end poor people don't pay their
bills. In the long run a pay-as-you-geaux cellphone is probably cheaper
than having a hardwired one...

Its amazing how expert usenet posters are about conditions over here,
through watching teevee. I've lived here all my life except for 3 of my
46 years. It doesn't take a flood or hurricane to kill people over here..

Hail to the arm-chair quarterbacks of rec.aviation

[Terry Briggs]

Right, drop some pallets of water (about 7lbs per gallon) out of a moving
C-130 and stand back and watch the fun. If anything survives, one probably
would squash at least a few of those people who need the help.
The ugly reality is that these people don't live in the Hampton's and will
simply have to wait for help from their government.


> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I am familiar with restricted airspace. I live in Washington DC and
> have seen his multicoloured maps of the area.
>
> For New Orleans, obivously when the Pres visits or flies over is not
> the time to be in the air space. I personally think he shouldn't visit
> the area now. If he really does want to visit, he could slip in
> 'undercover' in a National Guard uniform. After he leaves if could be
> made public.
>
> As for being forced to land, I would take that and run with it
> publically. It would embarrass the government that they haven't yet run
> a few C-130's over the area and kicked out MRE pallets and water kits.
>
> This is not rock science. At the current speed of evactions, many
> survivers will be dead by the time a bus arrives for them.
>
> Blanket the damn area with MREs and water kits from the sky.
>

[Terry Briggs]

Do your kits filter out gasoline, diesel, and about 1000 other chemicals in
the toxic mix inside NO?


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> The kits have picture diagrams for usage on the packaging.
>
> Once one person figures out how to make drinkable water, I'm sure
> others will copy what he/she did.
>

[Terry Briggs]

Does part of your "hard truth" include the invalids, children, sick,
hospitalized, mentally insane, amputees and people who were too poor to own
a car?

Now, if you had said this was an example of Social Darwinism, I would have
agreed with you.

These people, for the most part, were left behind because they were poor, or
stupid, or otherwise unable to make good decisions.

Don't be so ****ing heartless.


"Dave S" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> You need to quit trying to freelance and contribute to an existing relief
> effort. You are asking someone to essentially throw their pilots license
> in the trash by assisting you in your well intentioned but misguided ploy.
> Their certificate would be revoked on an emergency basis, and likely
> permanently revoked. If you are lucky, the drop wont hit someone on the
> head, killing them.
>
> The COLD HARD TRUTH is that many people bear SOME of the responsibility
> for the situation they are in.
>
> They were told to get out. SOME couldnt. Many CHOSE not to.
>
> Prudence dictates that you keep a ready supply of your prescription meds,
> and TAKE THE MED BOTTLES WITH YOU when you leave home.
>
> Common decency says dont shoot at the goddamn helicopters trying to bring
> you food and water, and give you a ride out.
>
> You cant fly relief in until the hurricane is gone. You cant truck relief
> in over a demolished bridge. You cant snap your fingers and make a
> division of guardsmen appear in 2 hours. It takes time to mobilize
> resources.
>
> Yes.. You are right.. people are dying. People died on the bus ride to
> houston last night, and no, this wasn't on the news, and no, its not
> heresay.
>
> Send your 4 grand to the red cross and if you want to help, call them and
> ask what YOU can do to help, UNDER THEIR DIRECTION. If you were interested
> in helping people, you would have joined up with such an organization
> ahead of time, being proactive, rather than REACTING after the fact.
>
> Dave
>
>
> wrote:
>> The kits have picture diagrams for usage on the packaging.
>>
>> Once one person figures out how to make drinkable water, I'm sure
>> others will copy what he/she did.
>>
>

[Terry Briggs]

Thank you George. My insulin (maybe Dave S's is a different critter) is a
protein that will spoil, just like any other protein that is not used
immediately or refrigerated.


"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:my_Re.7$rh.4@trndny03...
> Dave S wrote:
>>
>> Prudence dictates that you keep a ready supply of your prescription meds,
>> and TAKE THE MED BOTTLES WITH YOU when you leave home.
>
> Some meds (insulin, for example) require constant refrigeration.
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Terry Briggs]

WRONG - it won't last 30 days in NO La. heat. What an idiotic statement.


"Dave S" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
>
> George Patterson wrote:
>
>
>> Some meds (insulin, for example) require constant refrigeration.
>>
>
> Actually, insulin can last up to 30 days at "room" temperature. At one of
> the hospitals I work at we have not been refrigerating OPENED/USED insulin
> bottles for over 3 years now. We put it in the patient's med drawer in a
> med cart station, rather than leave it in the fridge where it may become a
> "community bottle" (increasing the chances someone may re-enter it with a
> used needle from a different patient).
>
> Dave
>

[Terry Briggs]

The pay phones don't have to be removed - just remove the ability to make
incoming calls. Slows the drug dealers quite a bit.

The phones are removed because of little use. (And makes folks buy cell
phones which make more money for the companies.)


"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> Greg Copeland wrote:
>
>> I didn't say "their phone", I said, "a dang phone". Meaning, any phone
>> would do. Phones are not exactly hard to come by if someone is really
>> determined to make a call.
>
> Not alot of payphones left in Louisiana, Bellsouth has removed them due to
> lack of usage, or the police have requested their removal due to drug
> deals. Most businesses don't allow people off the street to use their
> phone. How well do you kneaux your neighbors?

[Terry Briggs]

Scream "HELP" real loud.



"john smith" > wrote in message
. ..
> Newps wrote:
>> It will be three years in October since I got rid of my landline phone. I
>> just decided I wasn't going to pay those taxes anymore. For about the
>> last year I have had an internet phone from Vonage. It costs me about
>> $17 a month and the area code for that phone is from the St. Paul, MN;
>> area(651) so all of our relatives can call us toll free. Unbelievable how
>> well it works.
>
> How do you contact 911 when the broadband goes out?

[john smith]

In article >,
"Terry Briggs" > wrote:

> Do your kits filter out gasoline, diesel, and about 1000 other chemicals in
> the toxic mix inside NO?

Activated charcoal will... at least one time use.

[Flyingmonk]

I commend your efforts, I wish I had a plane.

[[email protected]]

Listen to 'The American Life' from NPR that aired this weekend.
Several stories about the situation in New Orleans.

One story (confirmed, multiple sources) was on how the local police
from the town on the other side of the Mississippi bridge guarded the
bottom of the bridge on the New Orleans' side and wouldn't let anyone
try and cross the bridge. Despite the fact there was no traffic on the
bridge. These police officers fired their guns into the air/toward the
people to keep them back.

Why a largely white town in Mississippi didn't want thousands of wet,
dirty and mostly black 'displaced' persons entering their precious town
is left as an exercise for the reader.


d

[[email protected]]

Also, remember that during the first few hours/days, the ratio of
chemicals to water was much lower than it was after a week or two.

The point of the kits is to be used as soon as possible after disaster
before pollution can become an issue. By getting them right at the
beginning of a disaster, it allows for many individuals to shelter in
place and survive for several days until rescue can get around to them.
Many could have waited for a week on an unflooded second / third floor
while rescue concentrated on those that needed medical attention.

As a sad fact, I saw an image of someone who had painted 'Diabetes
Hear' on their roof. The use of 'Hear' instead of 'Here' was their
mistake, not mine.

Another way to get gasoline and diesel out of the water is to skim or
soak it up off the surface, use the sun to lightly heat the water and
evaporate the fuels off. If you need it immediately, a match or spark
will work as well.

[sfb]

If you are going to spread ugly rumors, it would help to look at a map
first and include some details. There is no bridge from New Orleans to
any town in the State of Mississippi. The closest anything comes to that
description is the I-10 bridge east of NO across the lake which Katrina
took out.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Listen to 'The American Life' from NPR that aired this weekend.
> Several stories about the situation in New Orleans.
>
> One story (confirmed, multiple sources) was on how the local police
> from the town on the other side of the Mississippi bridge guarded the
> bottom of the bridge on the New Orleans' side and wouldn't let anyone
> try and cross the bridge. Despite the fact there was no traffic on the
> bridge. These police officers fired their guns into the air/toward the
> people to keep them back.
>
> Why a largely white town in Mississippi didn't want thousands of wet,
> dirty and mostly black 'displaced' persons entering their precious
> town
> is left as an exercise for the reader.
>
>
> d
>

[[email protected]]

I finally figured out how Homeland Security decided to deal with a
disaster.

First, they worked to prevent a terrorism attack that would cause a
disaster.

The next part of the plan we saw arrive in the New Orleans area as a
convoy of 16 identical, brand new, unmarked government 18 wheelers.
That carried the mobile morgue. This it the only thing I've seen from
FEMA that looked well planned and arrived on time.

The assumption at Homeland/FEMA has been like 9/11 there probably would
be no survivers, so they concentrated on preparing for mass body
retreival.

d