Shooting at helicopters, any proof? (Katrina)

[Flyingmonk]

1. Has any helicopter been shoot down during Katrina rescue attempt?
2. Has any helicopters returned with bullet holes? one bullet hole?

I'd say those people were shooting to get attention of the pilots.
When I was young, I was taught to shoot three times in the air if you
needed help.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[sfb]

Anybody on the ground in New Orleans needs help and from the video I've
seen can clearly be seen from low flying aircraft and helicopters.

Nice try, but zero on the troll scale.

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> 1. Has any helicopter been shoot down during Katrina rescue attempt?
> 2. Has any helicopters returned with bullet holes? one bullet hole?
>
> I'd say those people were shooting to get attention of the pilots.
> When I was young, I was taught to shoot three times in the air if you
> needed help.
>
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone
>

[Flyingmonk]

What ever...

[john smith]

Flyingmonk wrote:
> I'd say those people were shooting to get attention of the pilots.
> When I was young, I was taught to shoot three times in the air if you
> needed help.

If you are down by the Superdome and helicopters are circling, landing
and taking off, I don't think you need to shoot three times to get
attention when there are 30k+ people milling around.
Then again, it could be the NIMBY folks who don't want any aircraft
flying around their house, creating all that disturbing noise. :-))

[Flyingmonk]

Were they getting shot at near the Superdome too? I thought it was in
other areas. I am trying to be a smart ass or anything, I just want to
know if any helicopters came back with holes or if any got shot down.
You know, just curious for the facts.

[Wizard of Draws]

On 9/4/05 10:38 AM, in article
. com, "Flyingmonk"
> wrote:

> 1. Has any helicopter been shoot down during Katrina rescue attempt?
> 2. Has any helicopters returned with bullet holes? one bullet hole?
>
> I'd say those people were shooting to get attention of the pilots.
> When I was young, I was taught to shoot three times in the air if you
> needed help.
>
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone
>

Can the pilot of a helicopter *hear* shots being fired?
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[Flyingmonk]

Can't answer that one, I don't think I've ever been fired at while I
was flying one.

[john smith]

Wizard of Draws wrote:
> Can the pilot of a helicopter *hear* shots being fired?

Thousand of military pilots cannot be wrong!

[W P Dixon]

The BBC said it happened so it has to be true ;) Seriously if a military
bird was hit , I don't know if you or I will hear about damage taken. The
military doesn't usually brief civilians on such matters. We can say that
police officers have been shot, as well as one known National Guardsman, so
I guess we may have to just figure the probability on it happening is very
likely. But like yourself it would be nice to see some real evidence.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Were they getting shot at near the Superdome too? I thought it was in
> other areas. I am trying to be a smart ass or anything, I just want to
> know if any helicopters came back with holes or if any got shot down.
> You know, just curious for the facts.
>

[Earl Grieda]

"john smith" > wrote in message
.. .
> Wizard of Draws wrote:
> > Can the pilot of a helicopter *hear* shots being fired?
>
> Thousand of military pilots cannot be wrong!

That doesn't answer the question.

[Dan Luke]

"john smith" wrote:

> If you are down by the Superdome and helicopters are circling, landing
> and taking off, I don't think you need to shoot three times to get
> attention when there are 30k+ people milling around.
> Then again, it could be the NIMBY folks who don't want any aircraft
> flying around their house, creating all that disturbing noise. :-))

In the five years I've been based at BFM, I've been warned three times
about aircraft being shot at near the departure end of rwy 14 at night.
Some people just like doimg that stuff, apparently.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Dan Luke]

"Flyingmonk" wrote:

> Can't answer that one, I don't think I've ever been fired at while I
> was flying one.

How do you know?

[Bob Gardner]

Do you think that the pilots can see the bullets whizzing by? Do you think
that they can hear the sound of shots while wearing headphones? Firing three
shots out in the wilderness makes sense...your suggestion is ludicruous.

Bob Gardner

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> 1. Has any helicopter been shoot down during Katrina rescue attempt?
> 2. Has any helicopters returned with bullet holes? one bullet hole?
>
> I'd say those people were shooting to get attention of the pilots.
> When I was young, I was taught to shoot three times in the air if you
> needed help.
>
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone
>

[john smith]

> "john smith" wrote:
>>If you are down by the Superdome and helicopters are circling, landing
>>and taking off, I don't think you need to shoot three times to get
>>attention when there are 30k+ people milling around.
>>Then again, it could be the NIMBY folks who don't want any aircraft
>>flying around their house, creating all that disturbing noise. :-))

Dan Luke wrote:
> In the five years I've been based at BFM, I've been warned three times
> about aircraft being shot at near the departure end of rwy 14 at night.
> Some people just like doimg that stuff, apparently.

I have a acquaintance who is a retired crop duster.
He go shot at one time (he heard it hit and found the hole).
When he reported it to the police, they said there was nothing they
could do about as there was no law against it.
My acquaintance pursued it up the line to the state aviation director
who took it to the legislature.
The legislature wasn't going to do anything until they were advised that
the state highway patrol and other state agencies flew aircraft on state
business (including the governor).
Once this fact was made known to them the proceeded with haste to pass
the necessary legislation to outlaw shooting at aircraft.

[RomeoMike]

Cripes, what state is that and what year?


john smith wrote:
>> "john smith" wrote:
>>

> When he reported it to the police, they said there was nothing they
> could do about as there was no law against it.

[RomeoMike]

Yes, but those doing the shooting may not know that.


Bob Gardner wrote:
> Do you think that the pilots can see the bullets whizzing by? Do you think
> that they can hear the sound of shots while wearing headphones?

[Flyingmonk]

....and what did you understand my suggestion was? I did not suggest
that they should shoot to get attention nor did I suggest that they
should shoot at all. I merely suggested that, may have been WHY they
shot. I don't see that as being ludicrous, does anyone else here see
that as being ludicrous?

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
john smith > wrote:

> > "john smith" wrote:
> >>If you are down by the Superdome and helicopters are circling, landing
> >>and taking off, I don't think you need to shoot three times to get
> >>attention when there are 30k+ people milling around.
> >>Then again, it could be the NIMBY folks who don't want any aircraft
> >>flying around their house, creating all that disturbing noise. :-))
>
> Dan Luke wrote:
> > In the five years I've been based at BFM, I've been warned three times
> > about aircraft being shot at near the departure end of rwy 14 at night.
> > Some people just like doimg that stuff, apparently.
>
> I have a acquaintance who is a retired crop duster.
> He go shot at one time (he heard it hit and found the hole).
> When he reported it to the police, they said there was nothing they
> could do about as there was no law against it.
> My acquaintance pursued it up the line to the state aviation director
> who took it to the legislature.
> The legislature wasn't going to do anything until they were advised that
> the state highway patrol and other state agencies flew aircraft on state
> business (including the governor).
> Once this fact was made known to them the proceeded with haste to pass
> the necessary legislation to outlaw shooting at aircraft.

Maybe the local yokels weren't interested, but the FBI certainly would
be! It is a federal offense to tamper with (or shoot at) an aircraft. In
today's environment, It would probably fall under anti-terrorism laws
and the shooter would be in DEEP doo-doo!

[houstondan]

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1077495.php

dan

[john smith]

> john smith wrote:
>> When he reported it to the police, they said there was nothing they
>> could do about as there was no law against it.

RomeoMike wrote:
> Cripes, what state is that and what year?

Ohio, circa early 1970's

[Flyingmonk]

Never found a hole, and you're right, how would I know for sure.

[Jay Honeck]

> http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1077495.php

Wow -- a "combat operation." That really sums it up, doesn't it?

An acquaintance of mine has an interesting theory on what is causing the
chaos of looting, arson, and sniping going on in New Orleans: A fairly
large percentage of the poor population of the N.O. inner city are drug
addicts. With the extensive flooding and hurricane damage, they've all been
"without" their drugs of choice for quite a few days now -- and they're all
in withdrawal.

Hell, no *wonder* they're all acting nuts.

This would also explain why they didn't evacuate, I suppose -- and why they
haven't done much of anything to save themselves, for that matter?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Don Tuite]

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 01:22:53 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1077495.php
>
>Wow -- a "combat operation." That really sums it up, doesn't it?
>
>An acquaintance of mine has an interesting theory on what is causing the
>chaos of looting, arson, and sniping going on in New Orleans: A fairly
>large percentage of the poor population of the N.O. inner city are drug
>addicts. With the extensive flooding and hurricane damage, they've all been
>"without" their drugs of choice for quite a few days now -- and they're all
>in withdrawal.
>
>Hell, no *wonder* they're all acting nuts.
>
>This would also explain why they didn't evacuate, I suppose -- and why they
>haven't done much of anything to save themselves, for that matter?

Don't forget to factor in that every politician in the state from the
governor on down is a crook and all the cops are on the take.

Don

[Doof]

"Don Tuite" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>This would also explain why they didn't evacuate, I suppose -- and why
>>they
>>haven't done much of anything to save themselves, for that matter?
>
> Don't forget to factor in that every politician in the state from the
> governor on down is a crook and all the cops are on the take.
>
Read up on how the Fed's tried to take apart the NOPD a few years back...it
didn't get very far other than about 50 went to federal prison (IIRC).

[Wizard of Draws]

On 9/4/05 9:22 PM, in article N5NSe.327457$xm3.173851@attbi_s21, "Jay
Honeck" > wrote:

>
> An acquaintance of mine has an interesting theory on what is causing the
> chaos of looting, arson, and sniping going on in New Orleans: A fairly
> large percentage of the poor population of the N.O. inner city are drug
> addicts. With the extensive flooding and hurricane damage, they've all been
> "without" their drugs of choice for quite a few days now -- and they're all
> in withdrawal.
>

Bull. The N.O. Police initially turned their heads at the looting, and if
some of the pictures I've seen haven't been misinterpreted, even joined in.
What they did was leave N. O. to the mercy of animals and the law of the
jungle prevailed. The cops dishonored themselves and abandoned their duties
and their city.

If you are a cop in the midst of a disaster, shoot looters. When you do, you
keep order, save lives and property.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[Jay Honeck]

> If you are a cop in the midst of a disaster, shoot looters. When you do,
> you
> keep order, save lives and property.

Mary and I were just discussing this. Were this happening in Iowa, the
police would have to push through a pile of bodies to get to our hotel, in
order to find out what had happened.

It's absolutely unimaginable what is happening in N.O. And (other than on
Fox News) all the damned coverage is about these animals doing the looting,
rather than about the quiet, courageous recovery and rebuilding going on up
and down the Mississippi and Louisiana coastlines. And, let's not forget,
Florida took a fairly good hit, too.

There are thousands (millions?) of Americans going about the business of
rebuilding their lives, and we're just not getting the story. Is it just
me, or does it seem that the major news networks have set up just three main
cameras -- one at the N.O. airport, one on the bridge overlooking the
flooded parts of N.O, and the last one being the live feed from the A.P.
cameras?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Hotel 179]

message snipped.........

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:mWOSe.309047$x96.251639@attbi_s72...
> quiet, courageous recovery and rebuilding going on up and down the
> Mississippi and Louisiana coastlines. And, let's not forget, Florida took
> a fairly good hit, too.

-------------------------------reply---------------------------------------

Jay,

We got whacked too!:).....didn't we Bro. Luke....

Stephen
Alabama Coastline
> --

[cjcampbell]

Flyingmonk wrote:
> 1. Has any helicopter been shoot down during Katrina rescue attempt?
> 2. Has any helicopters returned with bullet holes? one bullet hole?
>
> I'd say those people were shooting to get attention of the pilots.
> When I was young, I was taught to shoot three times in the air if you
> needed help.

I don't know how you would know people were shooting at you. Even in
wartime the only way you know is by looking at the tracer bullets or
little flashes on the ground. I suppose if someone actually hit your
aircraft you would notice, and you might receive reports from people on
the ground.

When I was young, I was taught all sorts of crazy things, too. I
probably still believe some of them, but I have learned to try to be
skeptical of them.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> If you are a cop in the midst of a disaster, shoot looters. When you do,
>> you
>> keep order, save lives and property.
>
> Mary and I were just discussing this. Were this happening in Iowa, the
> police would have to push through a pile of bodies to get to our hotel, in
> order to find out what had happened.


I was thinking back to the Rodney King riots: the only Korean shopkeepers who
still have shops stood in front of them with guns and kept the predators away.
As I pointed out to my anti-gun father, at least one person in this family is
prepared to deal with civil unrest. And now it doesn't seem all that
implausible.... I live in a major financial center with two nuclear power plants
within 30 miles.

I'm not inclined to go along quietly myself. <G>



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 10:56:39 -0400, Wizard of Draws
> wrote:

>Can the pilot of a helicopter *hear* shots being fired?

In Vietnam, one looked for muzzle flashes.

You probably could also hear the thang going through the skin of the
aircraft. Happily I never experienced that, so I can't say for sure.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 22:19:31 -0400, Wizard of Draws
> wrote:

>If you are a cop in the midst of a disaster, shoot looters.

I think we've educated the police that nothing justifies lethal force.
The cop knows that if he shoots someone, he will probably lose his
job; but if he doesn't shoot, he probably won't.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Dave S]

Well, according to this morning's news, they didn't mind layin down the
law yesterday. The Houston Chronicle reported that a contractor's
vehicle (cant remember if its a truck or boat) under Police escort came
under fire from 8 armed men. The police fired back, killing at least 6.
The contractors were going to work on repairing the levee breaches. The
workers were all ok.

Now, thats a damn good start. Put an end to this lawless bull****. Must
have been some of the officers sent from Texas to help.

Dave

Cub Driver wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 22:19:31 -0400, Wizard of Draws
> > wrote:
>
>
>>If you are a cop in the midst of a disaster, shoot looters.
>
>
> I think we've educated the police that nothing justifies lethal force.
> The cop knows that if he shoots someone, he will probably lose his
> job; but if he doesn't shoot, he probably won't.
>
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>
> email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog: www.danford.net
> In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Dan Luke]

"Hotel 179" wrote:
>
> We got whacked too!:).....didn't we Bro. Luke....

Yeah, we did.

Bayou LaBatre (Forest Gump's home town) is pretty well wrecked; about
half of Dauphin Island is *gone*. My favorite restaurant on the
causeway is trashed. Teledyne Continental Motors at BFM is a mess.

It's much worse than Ivan, a big storm that came ashore just a few miles
away. Katrina was >100 miles away. Unbelievable.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Doof]

"Wizard of Draws" > wrote in message
news:BF412373.2F7AE%jeffbREMOVE@REMOVEwizardofdraw s.com...
> On 9/4/05 9:22 PM, in article N5NSe.327457$xm3.173851@attbi_s21, "Jay
> Honeck" > wrote:
>
>>
>> An acquaintance of mine has an interesting theory on what is causing the
>> chaos of looting, arson, and sniping going on in New Orleans: A fairly
>> large percentage of the poor population of the N.O. inner city are drug
>> addicts. With the extensive flooding and hurricane damage, they've all
>> been
>> "without" their drugs of choice for quite a few days now -- and they're
>> all
>> in withdrawal.
>>
>
> Bull. The N.O. Police initially turned their heads at the looting, and if
> some of the pictures I've seen haven't been misinterpreted, even joined
> in.
> What they did was leave N. O. to the mercy of animals and the law of the
> jungle prevailed. The cops dishonored themselves and abandoned their
> duties
> and their city.
>
> If you are a cop in the midst of a disaster, shoot looters. When you do,
> you
> keep order, save lives and property.

So if the cops do react properly, then what excuse do we offer for looters?

[[email protected]]

CJ
In my 40+ years of flying aircraft around the world, I've been shot at
a number of times. Yes I knew it when bullets went by that were close.
But, I suspect I've been shot at any number of times and didn't know
about it either because the shooter was way behind me, or shooting
under me. I've been hit at least twice in helicopters while crop
dusting with the bullet holes to prove it.
There are some really stupid people out there who shoot just for the
hell of it without meaning to do damage or not aware of how damaging it
can be. I've also been shot on the ground with the bullet scars to
remind me and I have zero tolerance for anyone who takes a shot at me.
I will shoot to kill without hesitation or remorse.
Those who are shooting in New Orleans are doing so out of pure hatred
and meaness. I sincerely hope that the law enforcement people,
including the federal troops, have the authorization to shoot to kill
anyone who has a firearm and uses it in a threatening manner.
Having seen that the majority of those in the congested area of
survivors are black, and the majority of the troops coming in are
white, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that when whites shoot
black looters or anarchists, the "reverend" jesse jackson will be on
camera screaming of genocide and white racism.
I live not far from New Orleans and have worked in that city on and off
since 1967. This problem was predicted many years ago and the fault for
the current problems stems DIRECTLY from the locals who failed to
follow their own procedures in a timely fashion.
When things start to settle down a little I expect to be flying
helicopter as a relief pilot with the overworked crews and I won't be
surprised to be shot at again by people who are angry at their plight
in life and feel the need to shoot at those who try to help them.
Police, firemen, EMS, troops, helicopters.....
Some really STOOOPID people out there
Ol shy & Bashful

[Flyingmonk]

Well put.

[George Patterson]

Dan Luke wrote:
>
> Bayou LaBatre (Forest Gump's home town) is pretty well wrecked; about
> half of Dauphin Island is *gone*.

From the photos I saw, it looked like much more than hald was gone.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> The cop knows that if he shoots someone, he will probably lose his
> job; but if he doesn't shoot, he probably won't.

That was certainly the case at first. I thought I read that orders to shoot
looters went out a few days ago, though, and lethal force for the purpose of
defense has always been justified.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Dan Luke]

"George Patterson" wrote:

>> Bayou LaBatre (Forest Gump's home town) is pretty well wrecked; about
>> half of Dauphin Island is *gone*.
>
> From the photos I saw, it looked like much more than hald was gone.

Lengthwise, maybe, but the west end was the skinny part and suffered the
worst erosion. The east end is much more substantial and is still
pretty much intact. The airport, Coast Guard Station, municipal
buildings, etc.are still there.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Flyingmonk]

Finally, someone's been charged for this.

http://www.salon.com/wire/ap/archive.html?wire=D8CEVR5O3.html

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Gary Drescher]

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Finally, someone's been charged for this.
>
> http://www.salon.com/wire/ap/archive.html?wire=D8CEVR5O3.html
>
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

The AP article:

**********
NEW ORLEANS (AP) -- A New Orleans man was arrested and charged with shooting
at a military rescue helicopter. Authorities said the bullets apparently did
not hit anything.
Wendell Bailey, 20, was taken into custody Monday night by agents with the
federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
The agents were in the neighborhood to investigate neighbors' complaints of
gunfire and heard shots from an apartment window as a helicopter flew over.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-BRF-Katrina-Helicopter-Shooting.html
************

A couple of things to note: First, this happened on Monday night, so it
doesn't address whether any of the earlier-rumored shootings occurred (see
the link just posted in the other helicopters thread). Second, according to
the article, there was apparently ongoing gunfire for an unspecified reason;
neighbors complained; ATF agents showed up and arrested an alleged shooter.
The only mentioned connection to helicopters is that the agents "heard shots
from an apartment window as a helicopter flew over". But if the shots were
already ongoing anyway, that doesn't sound like strong evidence that the
helicopter was the target. We'll see.

--Gary

[Flyingmonk]

Gary wrote:
>The only mentioned connection to helicopters is that the agents "heard shots
>from an apartment window as a helicopter flew over". But if the shots were
>already ongoing anyway, that doesn't sound like strong evidence that the
>helicopter was the target. We'll see.

Agreed, see other heli thread. Anyone know how to merge these two
threads?

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Gary Drescher]

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Gary wrote:
>>The only mentioned connection to helicopters is that the agents "heard
>>shots
>>from an apartment window as a helicopter flew over". But if the shots were
>>already ongoing anyway, that doesn't sound like strong evidence that the
>>helicopter was the target. We'll see.
>
> Agreed, see other heli thread. Anyone know how to merge these two
> threads?

Heh, good question. This is like phone tag. :)

Let's just use the other thread, since it came first.

--Gary

[Flyingmonk]

OK