Picking a flight school

[Dallas]

I'm finding myself motivated to take a few lessons and I'm getting
conflicting opinions as to how to pick a flight school. As you can see from
my moniker, I'm from Dallas and Addison Airport has quite a few schools.

One opinion was that Addison was a good choice because they'll have more
modern aircraft and more proficient schools.

The other opinion that seems to make sense is to pick a flight school
outside of the city in a rural area to get away from the traffic and the
Class B airspace. I could see how you could burn up a lot of your time on
the taxiways at Addison and once in the air, use up more time getting to a
practice area. I'm afraid that I'd only get 30 minutes for my hour.

Opinions?

Dallas

[Bob Gardner]

Boeing Field, in Seattle, is beneath the SeaTac Class B...but ATC has
designed flight paths and altitudes allowing fairly easy arrivals and
departures from BFI. Before I moved to BFI, I instructed at a small
uncontrolled field about 30 miles north of Seattle. It was and is a popular
airport and it was not uncommon to wait a few minutes before there was a gap
in the line of arrivals. Conversely, at BFI the tower did a fair job of
sequencing arrivals and departures and delays, while not totally absent,
were no worse than those at the uncontrolled airport.

The big difference is that my students from the little airport would not
come down to BFI, no matter how many cups of coffee I offered, while my BFI
students flew up to the uncontrolled airport without a second thought.
Summary: Use Addison...you'll be better off in the long run. The worst thing
you can do to yourself is to develop a reluctance to fly into class B, C, or
D, because they aren't going to go away, while little airports disappear
every week.

Bob Gardner
"Dallas" > wrote in message
.net...
> I'm finding myself motivated to take a few lessons and I'm getting
> conflicting opinions as to how to pick a flight school. As you can see
> from
> my moniker, I'm from Dallas and Addison Airport has quite a few schools.
>
> One opinion was that Addison was a good choice because they'll have more
> modern aircraft and more proficient schools.
>
> The other opinion that seems to make sense is to pick a flight school
> outside of the city in a rural area to get away from the traffic and the
> Class B airspace. I could see how you could burn up a lot of your time on
> the taxiways at Addison and once in the air, use up more time getting to a
> practice area. I'm afraid that I'd only get 30 minutes for my hour.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Dallas
>
>

[[email protected]]

Bob Gardner wrote:
> Summary: Use Addison...you'll be better off in the long run. The worst thing
> you can do to yourself is to develop a reluctance to fly into class B, C, or
> D, because they aren't going to go away, while little airports disappear
> every week.

I agree with what Bob said. I trained at Hanscom Field (BED) just under
the Boston shelf and have never had reason to regret it. Learning at a
larger controlled field will complicate things initially but equip you
better for the long run especially if you're going to go on to bigger
things.

As for ground delays, you will find that many of the larger fields are
pretty quiet during the middle of the day so if you have any
flexibility you should take advantage of that. If it makes you feel any
better keep in mind that all that time you spend on the ground can be
logged so you're not ****ing money completely down the drain ;)

-cwk.

[Peter Duniho]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> [...] Before I moved to BFI, I instructed at a small uncontrolled field
> about 30 miles north of Seattle. It was and is a popular airport and it
> was not uncommon to wait a few minutes before there was a gap in the line
> of arrivals. Conversely, at BFI the tower did a fair job of sequencing
> arrivals and departures and delays, while not totally absent, were no
> worse than those at the uncontrolled airport.

While I can attest to the efficiency with which the BFI controllers move
traffic at that airport, and that that sort of efficiency is the norm,
rather than the exception, I will also provide an important caveat: those
airports ARE busier, and CAN cause greater delays.

BFI is the one airport around here (the Puget Sound area) where I have sat
on the ground for 20 minutes waiting for a takeoff clearance, and where I
have had to circle outside their airspace for 15 minutes waiting for
permission to enter the Class D. I don't know which "uncontrolled field
about 30 miles north of Seattle" Bob is referring to, but the busier ones --
Harvey Field in Snohomish, and Arlington Airport in Arlington -- have never
caused me that kind of delay, and I was based at Harvey for more than a year
(so I have more than just passing experience with the airport).

I still think controlled airports have a lot to offer, with respect to
training and with respect to day-to-day operations. IMHO, the benefits even
outweight the disadvantages. But don't go into it thinking there's no
disadvantages at all.

Pete

[N93332]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> BFI is the one airport around here (the Puget Sound area) where I have sat
> on the ground for 20 minutes waiting for a takeoff clearance, and where I
> have had to circle outside their airspace for 15 minutes waiting for
> permission to enter the Class D.

Permission to enter Class D airspace??? It has been a while since I've flown
in class D (or C) airspace, but I don't remember ever needing 'permission to
enter'. I do remember that permission (and a transponder) is required for
class B airspace. I guess I'll have to reread my Far/Aim again before I go
to/through those airspaces.

Or is it just that BFI Class D is in/under/near a Class B that permission is
required?

-Greg B.

[Peter Duniho]

"N93332" > wrote in message
...
> Permission to enter Class D airspace??? It has been a while since I've
> flown in class D (or C) airspace, but I don't remember ever needing
> 'permission to enter'. [...]

IMHO, you are being needlessly pedantic.

One of the responses a controller (Class C or Class D) can give you is
"remain clear". This denies you access to the airspace, and without a later
transmission from them telling you that you may enter, you may not.

I call this "permission". I don't know what you call it, but the fact
remains that you need that permission.

Pete

[N93332]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "N93332" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Permission to enter Class D airspace??? It has been a while since I've
>> flown in class D (or C) airspace, but I don't remember ever needing
>> 'permission to enter'. [...]
>
> IMHO, you are being needlessly pedantic.
>
> One of the responses a controller (Class C or Class D) can give you is
> "remain clear". This denies you access to the airspace, and without a
> later transmission from them telling you that you may enter, you may not.
>
> I call this "permission". I don't know what you call it, but the fact
> remains that you need that permission.

Ok, I apologize! I was wrong about required permission to enter class D.
Sorry!

(I'll go back and crawl in my hole)...

[john smith]

> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
>>BFI is the one airport around here (the Puget Sound area) where I have sat
>>on the ground for 20 minutes waiting for a takeoff clearance, and where I
>>have had to circle outside their airspace for 15 minutes waiting for
>>permission to enter the Class D.

N93332 wrote:
> Permission to enter Class D airspace??? It has been a while since I've flown
> in class D (or C) airspace, but I don't remember ever needing 'permission to
> enter'. I do remember that permission (and a transponder) is required for
> class B airspace. I guess I'll have to reread my Far/Aim again before I go
> to/through those airspaces.
> Or is it just that BFI Class D is in/under/near a Class B that permission is
> required?

Permission is the operative word for CCAS! Says so right in the regs.
For CDAS and CBAS you must have a clearance.

[Dallas]

"Bob Gardner"
> Summary: Use Addison...you'll be better off in the long run. The worst
thing
> you can do to yourself is to develop a reluctance to fly into class B, C,
or

Well, it seems unanimous. I am a little surprised, I expected to hear that
a little country airport was the way to go.

> while little airports disappear every week.

They do? Where do they go?....

(just kidding)


Dallas

[Jay Beckman]

"Dallas" > wrote in message
.net...
> I'm finding myself motivated to take a few lessons and I'm getting
> conflicting opinions as to how to pick a flight school. As you can see
> from
> my moniker, I'm from Dallas and Addison Airport has quite a few schools.
>
> One opinion was that Addison was a good choice because they'll have more
> modern aircraft and more proficient schools.
>
> The other opinion that seems to make sense is to pick a flight school
> outside of the city in a rural area to get away from the traffic and the
> Class B airspace. I could see how you could burn up a lot of your time on
> the taxiways at Addison and once in the air, use up more time getting to a
> practice area. I'm afraid that I'd only get 30 minutes for my hour.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Dallas

Being under a Class B shelf doesn't immediately mean you will be flying at a
busy airport. Is Addison considered a "reliever airport" for DFW? What
types of planes use Addison and how frequently? Are there scheduled air
carrier flights? Is it where lots of bizjets come home to roost?

I trained at a Class D under Class B and it made for a very nice mix of
sometimes busy / sometimes not. One day you're number four or five for
takeoff, the next you have the airport all to your self. You might be
behind a Cub or you might be in front of a Citation Jet...all very cool
actually.

Also, you get a chance to interact and communicate with lots of different
types of controllers which can help to aleviate "mic-fright" more easily
than if you only encounter them once in a great while.

I agree with Bob Gardner: Being able to handle the ATC mix is a good thing.

Good Luck and be sure to post over at rec.aviation.student as well...

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
AZ Cloudbusters
Chandler, AZ

[Rob Montgomery]

I'll throw in a dissenting opintion. :-)

While I agree that it is alarming how many pilots are reluctant to fly
into the local Class B, C or D airport, I don't think that is the place
to start your learning.

Flying is a bit like juggling, with about a dozen things going on all
at once. While, given enough time, it's possible to learn them all
simultaneously, I believe that a progressive approach is a better
method of instruction. It's much easier to give progressive instruction
when you fly out of a quiet, non-towered field.

Is it possible to give/get good instruction at a towered field? Sure,
but it's harder to find instructors who are capable of giving it.

Whatever happens, make sure you spend plenty of quality time at both
towered and non-towered airports. It will be worth your while. :-)

-Rob

---
Rob Montgomery
www.ScaryLittleAirplanes.org

[George Patterson]

Dallas wrote:
>
> They do? Where do they go?....

Oh, they're still there. Under the parking lots at, for example, Hadley Center
in South Plainfield and Airport Mall in Hazlet.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[xxx]

Dallas wrote:

>
> Well, it seems unanimous. I am a little surprised, I expected to hear that
> a little country airport was the way to go.
>

It is not unanimous.

I made a lot of flights in and out of Addison during the years that I
was in Dallas. I don't recommend it, not any school there, for flight
training, though there are reasonable places to rent airplanes there
once you have a ticket.

There are two big negatives that I see. Number one is time: it just
takes too long to get to and from the practice areas. The Hobbs
ticks just as fast when you're getting out from under the class B
shelf as it does when you're really making progress. It's already
expensive enough, why add to it?

The really big one, though, is the quality of instructors. The big
majority there are arrogant know-nothing time-building (on your dimes)
airline-pilot wannabes. They can't teach you how to fly because they
don't know anything about aviation. They have barely an hour in the
air that was not spent either doing exactly what it takes and nothing
more to get their own ratings or teaching folks like you exactly what
it takes and nothing more to get ratings. They're hopeless as teachers
because they have no experience and don't particularly want to be
teachers in the first place.

Takeoff and landing delays tend not to be bad during weekdays but can
be pretty depressing on sunny weekends--being 12th in line for takeoff
with 13 in the pattern while the Hobbs spins isn't a great way to start
a lesson.

The advantage of learning in a busy environment is over-rated. Learn
to fly the airplane first, then take an hour or so, not much more,
to get comfortable dealing with Dallas approach control and ADS tower.

So sez me, who did do primary training at a rural strip not far from
Dallas and then rented from several FBO's at ADS.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

xxx wrote:
> There are two big negatives that I see. Number one is time: it just
> takes too long to get to and from the practice areas. The Hobbs
> ticks just as fast when you're getting out from under the class B
> shelf as it does when you're really making progress. It's already
> expensive enough, why add to it?


An excellent point. I learned at a suburban airport only about 15 miles from
what is now a class B airport. I learned to fly first, then I learned to talk.
Then I learned to talk at the big airport. We went in and out of there
periodically and so it had no particular horror for me. Later, I had a flying
job where I flew out of that same Class B airport twice a day five days a week.
It was just another airport to me by that time... but I wouldn't have wanted to
start learning how to fly there.


> The really big one, though, is the quality of instructors. The big
> majority there are arrogant know-nothing time-building (on your dimes)
> airline-pilot wannabes. They can't teach you how to fly because they
> don't know anything about aviation. They have barely an hour in the
> air that was not spent either doing exactly what it takes and nothing
> more to get their own ratings or teaching folks like you exactly what
> it takes and nothing more to get ratings. They're hopeless as teachers
> because they have no experience and don't particularly want to be
> teachers in the first place.


After being out of flying for 15 years because of medical problems, I'm back.
And when I look for an instructor these days for recurrency work, I look for
CFIs who are already ATPs as well. They're not building time; they've got it.
I assume they teach because they enjoy it. And I know they've flown enough to
have practical experience about which they speak.

I had to snicker when getting an aircraft checkout from a young instructor one
day when he went into great detail about what to do if the engine quits.
Between the two of us, there were two airplane crashes related to engines
quiting to draw experience from. Unfortunately, he hadn't made either of them.
<G>

So, when I was looking for instrument recurrency training, I found an ATP to get
it with. It tends to be a much more refined lesson than I get from someone
who's never actually done it but has only read about it. Many of the CFIIs I
run into actually have very little real IFR experience, which surprised me quite
a bit. But the ATPs....



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Allen]

I used to freelance out of a place called Centerline at Addison. On
weekends it was not unusual to be number twelve or fifteen in line for
take-off. Three or four "tenths" would tick off the Hobbs before it was our
turn to go. I would try to keep my student as busy as possible but how much
can you do in line? I'm afraid you will be spending about $50 in these
modern aircraft just to get to the runway. I suggest you get away from
there and check out McKinney or Dallas Executive before you sign up.

Just my $.02

Allen

"Dallas" > wrote in message
.net...
> I'm finding myself motivated to take a few lessons and I'm getting
> conflicting opinions as to how to pick a flight school. As you can see
> from
> my moniker, I'm from Dallas and Addison Airport has quite a few schools.
>
> One opinion was that Addison was a good choice because they'll have more
> modern aircraft and more proficient schools.
>
> The other opinion that seems to make sense is to pick a flight school
> outside of the city in a rural area to get away from the traffic and the
> Class B airspace. I could see how you could burn up a lot of your time on
> the taxiways at Addison and once in the air, use up more time getting to a
> practice area. I'm afraid that I'd only get 30 minutes for my hour.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Dallas
>
>

[Stefan]

Best would be to try and find a school on a grass strip not longer than
2000 ft, then you get used to precicion right from day one. Perfect
yould be if they offer ab initio training in a taildragger, so you
actually learn stick and rudder skill and how to navigate by looking out
of the window. Once you know how to handle a plane, you can still go and
learn how to use all those gadgets.

I've seen pilots who couldn't hold an attitude using the natural horizon
instead of the artificial one and who refused to go cross country
without a GPS. Not my idea of a pilot.

Stefan

[Dallas]

"Jay Beckman"
> Is Addison considered a "reliever airport" for DFW? What
> types of planes use Addison and how frequently? Are there scheduled air
> carrier flights? Is it where lots of bizjets come home to roost?

Hey Jay,

It's the 3rd busiest GA airport in the nation and it's bizjet city. It's a
bit like a free Air Show...

Dallas

[Dallas]

"Allen"
> I used to freelance out of a place called Centerline at Addison.
> I suggest you get away from there and check out McKinney or
> Dallas Executive before you sign up.

Great advice from this group! I like the idea of McKinney... nice new
airport. I'll see if I can network around and find a flight school that
"cares" up there.

Dallas

[Dallas]

"George Patterson"
> Oh, they're still there. Under the parking lots at, for example, Hadley
Center
> in South Plainfield and Airport Mall in Hazlet.

....and putting greens?
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/03-1-157x.html

:-(

Dallas