When were wings unfolded on carriers?

[[email protected]]

I realize this is probably a large and complicated subject and varied
between aircraft and carriers, but just as a gross oversimplification
when would naval carrier aircraft typically fold up their wings and
unfold them?
Obviously, they would have to be unfolded before takeoff :) But
would it be true to say that all planes had their wings folded up
inside
the hangar? Was there some SOP for planes on the flight deck and/or
elevators. Was WW2 different than say modern jets?

thanks, kyle

[niceguy]

There is both a space and safety issue involved with folding wings. In
general, wings are folded ASAP after landing. At least, they were when I
last worked on the flight deck (late sixties).

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I realize this is probably a large and complicated subject and varied
> between aircraft and carriers, but just as a gross oversimplification
> when would naval carrier aircraft typically fold up their wings and
> unfold them?
> Obviously, they would have to be unfolded before takeoff :) But
> would it be true to say that all planes had their wings folded up
> inside
> the hangar? Was there some SOP for planes on the flight deck and/or
> elevators. Was WW2 different than say modern jets?
>
> thanks, kyle
>

[[email protected]]

On 5 Sep 2005 01:01:33 -0700, wrote:

>
>I realize this is probably a large and complicated subject and varied
>between aircraft and carriers, but just as a gross oversimplification
>when would naval carrier aircraft typically fold up their wings and
>unfold them?

In my experience with S2s (now approaching 35 years old ;-) ) wings
were folded immediately upon landing (hook up, flaps up, wings folded)
while taxiing clear of the wires and clear of the "foul line." It was
a busy time, with the co-pilot doing most of it as we had under 20
seconds (the interval between landings) to get 'er done and get clear.

For a launch, we would start engines, run up, and do everything but
spread "in the pack." As we approached the cat we would spread and
then taxi onto the rail. At that time we were also completing the
take-off check list so that when we got into position we were ready to
go. Again, a good co-pilot was a joy forever.

>Obviously, they would have to be unfolded before takeoff :) But
>would it be true to say that all planes had their wings folded up
>inside
>the hangar?

We did not have any aircraft aboard that could be spread on the hanger
deck. If maintenance needed to spread the wings it was coordinated
through the Air Boss and done on the Flight Deck. I don't know about
other aircraft.

Was there some SOP for planes on the flight deck and/or
>elevators.

Spotting aircraft is a Black Art practiced by Flight and Hanger Deck
Officers, assisted by their chief priest, the ABCM*!!!!! Most of the
time they are "spot on." Of course, there was the night they lost my
aircraft, but that's another story! ;-)

You spot IAW your operational needs. If you conducting regular ops
then there is constant movement as aircraft are launched, recovered,
and serviced. If you are not conducting ops then the pace is MUCH
more relaxed. But the Flight Deck is one of the most dangerous
industrial sites in the world, even when no ops are being conducted.

Like mules, modern aircraft bite from the front and kick from the
back. Service on the Flight Deck, even just going to and from your
aircraft, requires CONSTANT attention to the detail of what's going on
around you. I suspect this was the case on LANGLEY and I don't think
it has changed today.

> Was WW2 different than say modern jets?

I suspect that there are some significant changes in detail, but the
major effort is still to get aircraft on the deck ASAP (the ship is
constrained in course and speed while recovering and this makes
captains nervous if there is a hostile threat in the area). Ditto for
a launch.

Bill Kambic

ABCM: Master Chief Aviation Boatswain's Mate

[[email protected]]

In my experience aboard 5 carriers the wings are folded upon landing.
and unfolded on the catapult just before launch. I can remember only a
few occasions seeing aircraft on the hangar with the wings unfolded.
Usally and A-6 on jacks doing some sort of maint. check.

Would not know about WW ll.

I was in the USN from ' 71-' 91. My 25 year old son has been on active
duty for the last 7 years. He is a STG2(SW).

bd popeye

[John Dallman]

In article >,
() wrote:

> Spotting aircraft is a Black Art practiced by Flight and Hanger Deck
> Officers, assisted by their chief priest, the ABCM*!!!!! Most of the
> time they are "spot on." Of course, there was the night they lost my
> aircraft, but that's another story! ;-)

When you say "lost" I presume you mean mislaid, as opposed to accidently
parked somewhere overboard?

---
John Dallman, , HTML mail is treated as probable spam.

[W. D. Allen Sr.]

"...the co-pilot doing most of it as we had under 20
seconds (the interval between landings) to get 'er done and get clear...."

We had to get it done in 20 seconds also but without a copilot!

WDA
VF-24 VA-192

> wrote in message
...
> On 5 Sep 2005 01:01:33 -0700, wrote:
>
>>
>>I realize this is probably a large and complicated subject and varied
>>between aircraft and carriers, but just as a gross oversimplification
>>when would naval carrier aircraft typically fold up their wings and
>>unfold them?
>
> In my experience with S2s (now approaching 35 years old ;-) ) wings
> were folded immediately upon landing (hook up, flaps up, wings folded)
> while taxiing clear of the wires and clear of the "foul line." It was
> a busy time, with the co-pilot doing most of it as we had under 20
> seconds (the interval between landings) to get 'er done and get clear.
>
> For a launch, we would start engines, run up, and do everything but
> spread "in the pack." As we approached the cat we would spread and
> then taxi onto the rail. At that time we were also completing the
> take-off check list so that when we got into position we were ready to
> go. Again, a good co-pilot was a joy forever.
>
>>Obviously, they would have to be unfolded before takeoff :) But
>>would it be true to say that all planes had their wings folded up
>>inside
>>the hangar?
>
> We did not have any aircraft aboard that could be spread on the hanger
> deck. If maintenance needed to spread the wings it was coordinated
> through the Air Boss and done on the Flight Deck. I don't know about
> other aircraft.
>
> Was there some SOP for planes on the flight deck and/or
>>elevators.
>
> Spotting aircraft is a Black Art practiced by Flight and Hanger Deck
> Officers, assisted by their chief priest, the ABCM*!!!!! Most of the
> time they are "spot on." Of course, there was the night they lost my
> aircraft, but that's another story! ;-)
>
> You spot IAW your operational needs. If you conducting regular ops
> then there is constant movement as aircraft are launched, recovered,
> and serviced. If you are not conducting ops then the pace is MUCH
> more relaxed. But the Flight Deck is one of the most dangerous
> industrial sites in the world, even when no ops are being conducted.
>
> Like mules, modern aircraft bite from the front and kick from the
> back. Service on the Flight Deck, even just going to and from your
> aircraft, requires CONSTANT attention to the detail of what's going on
> around you. I suspect this was the case on LANGLEY and I don't think
> it has changed today.
>
>> Was WW2 different than say modern jets?
>
> I suspect that there are some significant changes in detail, but the
> major effort is still to get aircraft on the deck ASAP (the ship is
> constrained in course and speed while recovering and this makes
> captains nervous if there is a hostile threat in the area). Ditto for
> a launch.
>
> Bill Kambic
>
> ABCM: Master Chief Aviation Boatswain's Mate

[Charlie Wolf]

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:16:47 -0400, wrote:

>On 5 Sep 2005 01:01:33 -0700, wrote:
>
>>
>>I realize this is probably a large and complicated subject and varied
>>between aircraft and carriers, but just as a gross oversimplification
>>when would naval carrier aircraft typically fold up their wings and
>>unfold them?
>
>In my experience with S2s (now approaching 35 years old ;-) ) wings
>were folded immediately upon landing (hook up, flaps up, wings folded)
S-2's or S-3's?? S-2's are now approaching 60 years old. S-3's would
be in the neighborhood of 35 yr old....
Regards,

>while taxiing clear of the wires and clear of the "foul line." It was
>a busy time, with the co-pilot doing most of it as we had under 20
>seconds (the interval between landings) to get 'er done and get clear.
>
>For a launch, we would start engines, run up, and do everything but
>spread "in the pack." As we approached the cat we would spread and
>then taxi onto the rail. At that time we were also completing the
>take-off check list so that when we got into position we were ready to
>go. Again, a good co-pilot was a joy forever.
>
>>Obviously, they would have to be unfolded before takeoff :) But
>>would it be true to say that all planes had their wings folded up
>>inside
>>the hangar?
>
>We did not have any aircraft aboard that could be spread on the hanger
>deck. If maintenance needed to spread the wings it was coordinated
>through the Air Boss and done on the Flight Deck. I don't know about
>other aircraft.
>
> Was there some SOP for planes on the flight deck and/or
>>elevators.
>
>Spotting aircraft is a Black Art practiced by Flight and Hanger Deck
>Officers, assisted by their chief priest, the ABCM*!!!!! Most of the
>time they are "spot on." Of course, there was the night they lost my
>aircraft, but that's another story! ;-)
>
>You spot IAW your operational needs. If you conducting regular ops
>then there is constant movement as aircraft are launched, recovered,
>and serviced. If you are not conducting ops then the pace is MUCH
>more relaxed. But the Flight Deck is one of the most dangerous
>industrial sites in the world, even when no ops are being conducted.
>
>Like mules, modern aircraft bite from the front and kick from the
>back. Service on the Flight Deck, even just going to and from your
>aircraft, requires CONSTANT attention to the detail of what's going on
>around you. I suspect this was the case on LANGLEY and I don't think
>it has changed today.
>
>> Was WW2 different than say modern jets?
>
>I suspect that there are some significant changes in detail, but the
>major effort is still to get aircraft on the deck ASAP (the ship is
>constrained in course and speed while recovering and this makes
>captains nervous if there is a hostile threat in the area). Ditto for
>a launch.
>
>Bill Kambic
>
>ABCM: Master Chief Aviation Boatswain's Mate

[Tom]

"Charlie Wolf" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:16:47 -0400, wrote:
>
> >On 5 Sep 2005 01:01:33 -0700, wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>I realize this is probably a large and complicated subject and varied
> >>between aircraft and carriers, but just as a gross oversimplification
> >>when would naval carrier aircraft typically fold up their wings and
> >>unfold them?
> >
> >In my experience with S2s (now approaching 35 years old ;-) ) wings
> >were folded immediately upon landing (hook up, flaps up, wings folded)
> S-2's or S-3's?? S-2's are now approaching 60 years old. S-3's would
> be in the neighborhood of 35 yr old....
> Regards,

I suspect he means his experiences with S2's ended 35 years ago. Which given
the age of the S3 adds up nicely ;-)

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 10:45:55 -0500, Charlie Wolf
> wrote:

>S-2's or S-3's?? S-2's are now approaching 60 years old. S-3's would
>be in the neighborhood of 35 yr old....

Stoofs. The last were retired in '75 time frame (from VS-73).

They are still flying with Brazil and Thailand (at a minimum) making
it one of the longest serving military aircraft of all time. :-)

Bill Kambic

[Mike Kanze]

Bill,

....Not to mention the demilitarized Stoofs (TS-2As) flying for the
California Division of Forestry (CDF) as firefighter birds.

All (or nearly all) of these have been reengined with turboprops.

CDF has a long history of using former tailhook birds for firefighting. I
remember seeing a couple of CDF TBFs/TBMs at the Columbia (CA) airport in
the 1960s.

--
Mike Kanze

"If you ask a question you don't want an answer to, expect an answer you
don't want to hear."

- Rules From Guys

> wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 10:45:55 -0500, Charlie Wolf
> wrote:

>S-2's or S-3's?? S-2's are now approaching 60 years old. S-3's would
>be in the neighborhood of 35 yr old....

Stoofs. The last were retired in '75 time frame (from VS-73).

They are still flying with Brazil and Thailand (at a minimum) making
it one of the longest serving military aircraft of all time. :-)

Bill Kambic

[Tom]

> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 10:45:55 -0500, Charlie Wolf
> > wrote:
>
> >S-2's or S-3's?? S-2's are now approaching 60 years old. S-3's would
> >be in the neighborhood of 35 yr old....
>
> Stoofs. The last were retired in '75 time frame (from VS-73).
>
> They are still flying with Brazil and Thailand (at a minimum) making
> it one of the longest serving military aircraft of all time. :-)
>
> Bill Kambic
>

Nice looking aircraft, I always thought - what were they like to fly?. Quick
question that's always bugged me about carrier ops: On final approach, do
you fly the same heading as the carrier but a bit to the right then change
to the angle of the angled deck, or start your approach further to teh right
and treat the ships movement liek a crosswind from the right?

TIA

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 19:30:42 GMT, "Tom" > wrote:

>Nice looking aircraft, I always thought - what were they like to fly?.

Well, those that were unkind described it as "two T-28s flying
formation on dempster dumpster." :-)

It was a reasonably agile airplane for having as much wing as it did.
During low level ops (100' day, 300' night) it was stable and very
honest. Single engine performace was quite good at lower operating
weights. It did not get you anywhere fast. :-)

Quick
>question that's always bugged me about carrier ops: On final approach, do
>you fly the same heading as the carrier but a bit to the right then change
>to the angle of the angled deck, or start your approach further to teh right
>and treat the ships movement liek a crosswind from the right?

If the OOD is doing his job then the wind is down the angle. If not,
you do a little slip, not a "crab." It's a visual approach so actual
heading is not something in your scan; it's "meatball, line up, and
airspeed." Non-precision approaches (ADF and TACAN) were flown on BRC
(base recovery course) and you transitioned to visual and were back to
"meat ball, line up, and airspeed"); or missed approach.
Non-precision CCA or FCA (Fudd Controlled Approach) were like at the
field (fly the heading given and altitude suggested) until visual then
transion; or missed approach. Precision CCA was similar (and you
awaited "3/4 mile; call the ball") on all of them.

Night IMC approaches were always good for a thrill or two. Add in
some high seas and weather minimums and you might get to "splice the
mainbrace." :-)

Bill Kambic

[Tom]

> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 19:30:42 GMT, "Tom" > wrote:
>
> >Nice looking aircraft, I always thought - what were they like to fly?.
>
> Well, those that were unkind described it as "two T-28s flying
> formation on dempster dumpster." :-)

LOL.. I think it looks sort of.. functional and...cute, possibly. Organic.

<snip>

> Non-precision approaches (ADF and TACAN) were flown on BRC
> (base recovery course) and you transitioned to visual and were back to
> "meat ball, line up, and airspeed"); or missed approach.

Right.. was the BRC calculated so that you hopefully intercepted the
glideslope in time to transition to visual and land? i.e. a sort of gentle
lead pursuit?

> Non-precision CCA or FCA (Fudd Controlled Approach) were like at the
> field (fly the heading given and altitude suggested) until visual then
> transion; or missed approach. Precision CCA was similar (and you
> awaited "3/4 mile; call the ball") on all of them.

What was your approach speed relative to the carrier? I'm guessing 60 kts or
so.. so that's only 45 secs to sort it out.. not long if you're a bit off
and the wind's blowing!

>
> Night IMC approaches were always good for a thrill or two.

I bet they were...

> some high seas and weather minimums and you might get to "splice the
> mainbrace." :-)

or the main spar!


>
> Bill Kambic

[Charlie Wolf]

Sorry Bill - I assumed your reference to the age of the aircraft would
have referred to the introduction of the aircraft - not the fact that
they are still flying (somewhere)...
Regards,

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 13:19:13 -0400, wrote:

>On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 10:45:55 -0500, Charlie Wolf
> wrote:
>
>>S-2's or S-3's?? S-2's are now approaching 60 years old. S-3's would
>>be in the neighborhood of 35 yr old....
>
>Stoofs. The last were retired in '75 time frame (from VS-73).
>
>They are still flying with Brazil and Thailand (at a minimum) making
>it one of the longest serving military aircraft of all time. :-)
>
>Bill Kambic

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 20:49:58 GMT, "Tom" > wrote:

>> Non-precision approaches (ADF and TACAN) were flown on BRC
>> (base recovery course) and you transitioned to visual and were back to
>> "meat ball, line up, and airspeed"); or missed approach.
>
>Right.. was the BRC calculated so that you hopefully intercepted the
>glideslope in time to transition to visual and land? i.e. a sort of gentle
>lead pursuit?

I have some of the old INTREPID approach plates around in my "old
stuff box." I'll see if I can find them and answer your question more
accurately.

>> Non-precision CCA or FCA (Fudd Controlled Approach) were like at the
>> field (fly the heading given and altitude suggested) until visual then
>> transion; or missed approach. Precision CCA was similar (and you
>> awaited "3/4 mile; call the ball") on all of them.
>
>What was your approach speed relative to the carrier? I'm guessing 60 kts or
>so.. so that's only 45 secs to sort it out.. not long if you're a bit off
>and the wind's blowing!

Normal instrument approach was flown at 105kts and 2/3 flaps, if my
aging memory is correct. Wind over the deck was usually in the 25-30
kt. range on most days and nights. I'd say the ship was doing 20 kts.
plus or minus about 90% of the time. The landing was made in the 2/3
flap configuration (vice the full flaps used in VMC conditions).

Bill Kambic

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 16:27:55 -0500, Charlie Wolf
> wrote:

>Sorry Bill - I assumed your reference to the age of the aircraft would
>have referred to the introduction of the aircraft - not the fact that
>they are still flying (somewhere)...

I guess I was one of the Last of the Giants! :-)

The design may go back as late is WWII. I once saw a photo of a twin
engine torpedo/glide bomber proposed by Grumman that was the spitting
image of the Stoof. It had larger engines (R-2800, maybe) and a
retracable gun turret where the radome would later be. I don't
remember a top or tail gun. It was also a bit sleeker, but not much.

I always thought that Grumman dusted off that old design, modified it
for ASW, and then pitched it to the Navy, who bought it. If so, the
design is even older than we give it credit for!!!

Many tens of thousands of student naval aviators "did time" in some
varient of the TS2. As a trainer is was a challenge, but not
insurmountable. It was honest and would not "bite" if you respected
it. Single engine performance was beyond spectacular. That last item
could "set you up" in some other aircraft, as few had the power to
weight ratio the TS2 did in a single engine configuration.

There are a bunch of S2s around as fire fighters. There are also a
fair number out there in private hands as "warbirds." Maybe if I win
the lottery someday...!!!

Bill Kambic

[Bob Moore]

wrote

> Many tens of thousands of student naval aviators "did time" in some
> varient of the TS2.

I be one of them....NAS Kingsville 1959.

Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)

[B.C. Mallam]

How about the nights, in wx, that the only way to get aboard was to let down
until you could see the glow of the ships wake and then follow it to the
boat. Flying a slow a/c helped a lot on those nights.





On 7/9/05 3:03 PM, in article ,
" > wrote:

> On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 19:30:42 GMT, "Tom" > wrote:
>
>> Nice looking aircraft, I always thought - what were they like to fly?.
>
> Well, those that were unkind described it as "two T-28s flying
> formation on dempster dumpster." :-)
>
> It was a reasonably agile airplane for having as much wing as it did.
> During low level ops (100' day, 300' night) it was stable and very
> honest. Single engine performace was quite good at lower operating
> weights. It did not get you anywhere fast. :-)
>
> Quick
>> question that's always bugged me about carrier ops: On final approach, do
>> you fly the same heading as the carrier but a bit to the right then change
>> to the angle of the angled deck, or start your approach further to teh right
>> and treat the ships movement liek a crosswind from the right?
>
> If the OOD is doing his job then the wind is down the angle. If not,
> you do a little slip, not a "crab." It's a visual approach so actual
> heading is not something in your scan; it's "meatball, line up, and
> airspeed." Non-precision approaches (ADF and TACAN) were flown on BRC
> (base recovery course) and you transitioned to visual and were back to
> "meat ball, line up, and airspeed"); or missed approach.
> Non-precision CCA or FCA (Fudd Controlled Approach) were like at the
> field (fly the heading given and altitude suggested) until visual then
> transion; or missed approach. Precision CCA was similar (and you
> awaited "3/4 mile; call the ball") on all of them.
>
> Night IMC approaches were always good for a thrill or two. Add in
> some high seas and weather minimums and you might get to "splice the
> mainbrace." :-)
>
> Bill Kambic

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:06:53 -0500, "B.C. Mallam" >
wrote:

>How about the nights, in wx, that the only way to get aboard was to let down
>until you could see the glow of the ships wake and then follow it to the
>boat. Flying a slow a/c helped a lot on those nights.

On nights like that the stiff wingers got "Signal Bingo*". The
rotorheads had to descend until they could find the trail of sea water
activated flares that were being dumped off the fantail every 30".

Bill Kambic

* Bingo: procedeed the designated or pre-briefed land base.

[B.C. Mallam]

Too many times "bingo" was the boat and the Stoof got us aboard with this
approach. This was early 60's VS-33


On 8/9/05 3:40 PM, in article ,
" > wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:06:53 -0500, "B.C. Mallam" >
> wrote:
>
>> How about the nights, in wx, that the only way to get aboard was to let down
>> until you could see the glow of the ships wake and then follow it to the
>> boat. Flying a slow a/c helped a lot on those nights.
>
> On nights like that the stiff wingers got "Signal Bingo*". The
> rotorheads had to descend until they could find the trail of sea water
> activated flares that were being dumped off the fantail every 30".
>
> Bill Kambic
>
> * Bingo: procedeed the designated or pre-briefed land base.