Re. Can you see me now?

[Nigel Pocock]

There are a few problems with fitting transponders.
I fly from a very active gliding site betwen two busy
airfields and under the main airway. On a typical
busy summer weekend, particularly if we have a competition
taking place, we can easily have 60 to 100 gliders
beeing launched between 10.30 and 12.30 to fly cross
country. they will then return later in the day. On
top of this we have training and local club flying
taking place.(30 plus gliders)
If all of this lot were using transponders it would
totally blitz the screens of the ATC. They would then
say that there was a safety issue as they could not
deal with all the returns and want a reduction in traffic.
Three guesses on which section of the airspace users
the axe would fall. ( the fact that we dont require
controlling never seems to cross the official mind)
Apart from the cost of actually fitting transponders
we would probably be required to contribute to the
cost of services we dont need.

We have a very good relationship with local airfields
and ATC and work very efficiently together. Compulory
fitting of transponders would jepordise this.

Incidentally we had a visit by the new head of our
local ATC a couple of weeks ago. We were in the process
of launching a competition grid with 7 tugs. Radio
calls were kept to a minimum, ie no calls for downwind,
turning finals etc. Everbody concentrated on LOOKING
OUT and flying tug type circuits. About 70 gliders
were launched (or 140 air movements) in just over an
hour, in safety without any problems. At first she
was aghast but after watching for a while realised
that each pilot was taking there own responsibility
for spacing in the circuit and separation outside that.

The only potential conflict was when a Piper from elsewhere
decided to fly directly over the airfield at about
2000ft. We were operating the winch between aero tows
to about that height.

Nigel

[Marc Ramsey]

Nigel Pocock wrote:
> There are a few problems with fitting transponders.
> I fly from a very active gliding site betwen two busy
> airfields and under the main airway. On a typical
> busy summer weekend, particularly if we have a competition
> taking place, we can easily have 60 to 100 gliders
> beeing launched between 10.30 and 12.30 to fly cross
> country. they will then return later in the day. On
> top of this we have training and local club flying
> taking place.(30 plus gliders)
> If all of this lot were using transponders it would
> totally blitz the screens of the ATC. They would then
> say that there was a safety issue as they could not
> deal with all the returns and want a reduction in traffic.

I fly in the Reno, Nevada area, where on a summer weekend there will at
times be 50 to 100 gliders in the air, operating from three gliderports
within a 20 mile radius of a fairly busy international airport. We
started encouraging transponders after discussions with the local ATC
folks, following a couple of near misses between gliders and airliners.
Somewhere between 1/4 to 1/2 of the club and privately owned gliders
have transponders at this point. If they so desire, ATC can easily make
us all disappear by filtering out our preassigned 0440 squawk code, but
I can't imagine why they would want to do that...

Marc

[Ian Strachan]

Nigel Pocock wrote:

>On a typical
> busy summer weekend, particularly if we have a competition
> taking place, we can easily have 60 to 100 gliders
> beeing launched between 10.30 and 12.30 to fly cross
> country. they will then return later in the day. On
> top of this we have training and local club flying
> taking place.(30 plus gliders)
> If all of this lot were using transponders it would
> totally blitz the screens of the ATC. They would then
> say that there was a safety issue as they could not
> deal with all the returns and want a reduction in traffic.
> Three guesses on which section of the airspace users
> the axe would fall. ( the fact that we dont require

> The local head of ATC watched ...

> At first she
> was aghast but after watching for a while realised
> that each pilot was taking there own responsibility
> for spacing in the circuit and separation outside that.

Quite right. At Lasham our largest competition each year often has
three task groups and up to 95 gliders. With, as you say above, club
launching for soaring and training going on when the comps gliders are
on task.

Lasham is only 25 NMl from London Heathrow and 30 from London Gatwick,
under the airways structure base FL55 overhead Lasham.

In this push for ATC to "see" everything in the air, I wonder if they
have really considered the consequences of saturation by returns from
gliders and light aircraft outside their controlled airspace structure?


I think not, it is a blind belief that "identification means increased
safety" which it does not. See-and-be-seen in VMC is what gives
safety, as does teaching pilots to scan, scan, and scan again, rather
than have "the head in the office".

The anecdote about your local ATC lady reminds me of when I was hosting
the UK Director of Airspace Policy (a very important guy for us, at
least if we got things wrong) at a gliding comp. Many gliders were
finishing at once and he turned to me and said "Ian, you don't have Air
Traffic here, how are they going to land safely?". I said "Sir, they
are all on the same frequency, they have to be to be logged across the
finish line. Glider pilots are trained to look out, they will space
themselves round the circuit and you might hear a call like "Dave, I am
landing left, you land right" or something like that".

Fortunately for our reputation, that is just about how it happened ....


Another moral is that pilots finishing tasks will not know who is
watching them. A beat-up or other flashy flying might not go down well
with a representative from the CAA, FAA or whatever who may even have
been sent to observe just that in an effort to call us "cowboys", which
we aren't, are we?

Ian Strachan