Ouch - $2/gal/hr

[Hilton]

Hi,

Our RHV-based club (San Jose) just increased its prices by $2/gal/hr
effective immediately; 172s are now over $100, Arrow is $130 - I don't even
want to think what the Duchess will be when it gets its new engines (pilor
error gear up).

They said it was entirely due to fuel prices. I asked if the prices would
go down when/if avgas proces dropped. I didn't really get a good answer,
but the suggestion was no, they wouldn't.

I remember when a 172 was around $65 or so and flying around the pattern for
a hour was a fun thing to do. Now I have to call my accountant to get
financial approval.

Hilton

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 18:58:05 GMT, "Hilton" >
wrote in t>::

>I remember when a 172 was around $65 or so

During my Commercial training in 1971, I was paying $6.75/hour (dry)
for a Cherokee on the FBO's line.

Of course, a good annual income in those days was $30K, and a week's
groceries cost $20 for a family of 4. The dollar's just not worth
what once it was.

[Ross Richardson]

I remember when I could fly a 172 for $16.00/hour.


Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI


Hilton wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Our RHV-based club (San Jose) just increased its prices by $2/gal/hr
> effective immediately; 172s are now over $100, Arrow is $130 - I don't even
> want to think what the Duchess will be when it gets its new engines (pilor
> error gear up).
>
> They said it was entirely due to fuel prices. I asked if the prices would
> go down when/if avgas proces dropped. I didn't really get a good answer,
> but the suggestion was no, they wouldn't.
>
> I remember when a 172 was around $65 or so and flying around the pattern for
> a hour was a fun thing to do. Now I have to call my accountant to get
> financial approval.
>
> Hilton
>
>

[Michael]

> Our RHV-based club (San Jose) just increased its prices by > $2/gal/hr... They said it was entirely due to fuel prices.

Did your fuel go up by $2/gal? Because ours only went up by 40 cents a
gallon, and we just got a new load this weekend. We're paying $3.35
per gallon now. That reflects the actual price increases in the bulk
fuel. Anything significantly higher is just gouging.

> I asked if the prices would go down when/if avgas
> proces dropped. I didn't really get a good answer,
> but the suggestion was no, they wouldn't.

For years, the costs of renting airplanes really didn't keep up with
the costs of owning them - making the profit margins slimmer and
slimmer. It's gotten to where you really can't own a typical trainer
plane for less than you can rent it unless you fly 150+ hours a year.
I suspect that's going to change - but owning won't get any cheaper.

Michael

[Peter R.]

Michael > wrote:

> Did your fuel go up by $2/gal? Because ours only went up by 40 cents a
> gallon, and we just got a new load this weekend. We're paying $3.35
> per gallon now. That reflects the actual price increases in the bulk
> fuel. Anything significantly higher is just gouging.

Remember, Michael, we are not talking one gallon per hour here... The
C172SP burns about 9.5 gallons per hour. Thus, your 40 cents per gallon
translates to $3.80 per hour more in hourly operating costs. If the Op's
fuel went up by 40 cents per gallon as yours did, the owner is actually
losing money.

--
Peter
























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[Michael]

> Remember, Michael, we are not talking one gallon per hour here... The
> C172SP burns about 9.5 gallons per hour.

I'm well aware of that. However, read the first line of the post
again:

>Our RHV-based club (San Jose) just increased its prices by $2/gal/HR
(capitalization for emphasis mine).

Michael

[Peter R.]

Michael > wrote:

>>Our RHV-based club (San Jose) just increased its prices by $2/gal/HR
> (capitalization for emphasis mine).

Whoops. Two dollars *per gallon* per hour? I did miss that detail as I
have never seen rental rate increases discussed in terms of a gallon of gas
per hour before.

So, to the OP for clarification, the C172 is now about $20 more per hour
than a couple of weeks ago?

I guess that would be gouging.



--
Peter
























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[W P Dixon]

I'm not worried about the price of gas to much, according to the email I
just got I won the lottery in Italy!!! ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Michael > wrote:
>
>>>Our RHV-based club (San Jose) just increased its prices by $2/gal/HR
>> (capitalization for emphasis mine).
>
> Whoops. Two dollars *per gallon* per hour? I did miss that detail as I
> have never seen rental rate increases discussed in terms of a gallon of
> gas
> per hour before.
>
> So, to the OP for clarification, the C172 is now about $20 more per hour
> than a couple of weeks ago?
>
> I guess that would be gouging.
>
>
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> News==----
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> Newsgroups
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> =----

[Bushleague]

We purchased several July and September calls on all sorts of fuel
last Winter, so far okay at a $26.50/barrel price. Has anyone else
seen fuel prices increase? WTTW, go long on fuel.

Bush

A part of Rome was built in a day.


On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 18:58:05 GMT, "Hilton" >
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Our RHV-based club (San Jose) just increased its prices by $2/gal/hr
>effective immediately; 172s are now over $100, Arrow is $130 - I don't even
>want to think what the Duchess will be when it gets its new engines (pilor
>error gear up).
>
>They said it was entirely due to fuel prices. I asked if the prices would
>go down when/if avgas proces dropped. I didn't really get a good answer,
>but the suggestion was no, they wouldn't.
>
>I remember when a 172 was around $65 or so and flying around the pattern for
>a hour was a fun thing to do. Now I have to call my accountant to get
>financial approval.
>
>Hilton
>

[Hilton]

Michael wrote:
> > Our RHV-based club (San Jose) just increased its prices by >
$2/gal/hr... They said it was entirely due to fuel prices.
>
> Did your fuel go up by $2/gal? Because ours only went up by 40 cents a
> gallon, and we just got a new load this weekend. We're paying $3.35
> per gallon now. That reflects the actual price increases in the bulk
> fuel. Anything significantly higher is just gouging.

Here are the numbers they mentioned (in the CFI meeting last night) - these
numbers are approximate, but they're ballpark enough for this NG thread.
Gas was costing them $2.50-$2.80 or so. This next batch will cost $4.80.
The following batch will have an additional 75c cost. When I asked my "will
the rental prices drop when the fuel price drops" I was told they they're
building in a cost so that they don't have to raise them again for the 75c
delivery. Read that however you want - but to me, I think you're right - it
all sounds like ripoff/gouging to me.

OK, I just called the 'fuel guy' at RHV. Price today for a gallon is $4.04,
tomorrow will be $4.40. He said it's definitely temporary. He added that
the flight schools in RHV are leaving their prices the same, but are adding
a temporary surcharge. He added that cheaper gas may be found at more rural
areas since they will still be using older gas and would not have been
affected with newer deliveries.

The surcharge sounds fair to me. Now whether or not the fuel companies are
gouging is a separate issue. It still hurts though. I guess it'll soon be
the $1000 burger.

Hilton
P.S.: Not sure where the FBO manager got the $4.80 and 75c numbers from.


Hilton

[BTIZ]

we've been paying $130 for an Arrow around here for a couple of years.. and
now we pay a surcharge on top of that for the increased fuel costs..

BT

"Hilton" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Hi,
>
> Our RHV-based club (San Jose) just increased its prices by $2/gal/hr
> effective immediately; 172s are now over $100, Arrow is $130 - I don't
> even
> want to think what the Duchess will be when it gets its new engines (pilor
> error gear up).
>
> They said it was entirely due to fuel prices. I asked if the prices would
> go down when/if avgas proces dropped. I didn't really get a good answer,
> but the suggestion was no, they wouldn't.
>
> I remember when a 172 was around $65 or so and flying around the pattern
> for
> a hour was a fun thing to do. Now I have to call my accountant to get
> financial approval.
>
> Hilton
>
>

[BTIZ]

I did my primary training in C-152 Commuter IIs, at $18/hr wet. 1974

BT

"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
>I remember when I could fly a 172 for $16.00/hour.
>
>
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> KSWI
>
>
> Hilton wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Our RHV-based club (San Jose) just increased its prices by $2/gal/hr
>> effective immediately; 172s are now over $100, Arrow is $130 - I don't
>> even
>> want to think what the Duchess will be when it gets its new engines
>> (pilor
>> error gear up).
>>
>> They said it was entirely due to fuel prices. I asked if the prices
>> would
>> go down when/if avgas proces dropped. I didn't really get a good answer,
>> but the suggestion was no, they wouldn't.
>>
>> I remember when a 172 was around $65 or so and flying around the pattern
>> for
>> a hour was a fun thing to do. Now I have to call my accountant to get
>> financial approval.
>>
>> Hilton
>>

[Marty Shapiro]

"Hilton" > wrote in
ink.net:

> Michael wrote:
>> > Our RHV-based club (San Jose) just increased its prices by >
> $2/gal/hr... They said it was entirely due to fuel prices.
>>
>> Did your fuel go up by $2/gal? Because ours only went up by 40 cents
>> a gallon, and we just got a new load this weekend. We're paying
>> $3.35 per gallon now. That reflects the actual price increases in
>> the bulk fuel. Anything significantly higher is just gouging.
>
> Here are the numbers they mentioned (in the CFI meeting last night) -
> these numbers are approximate, but they're ballpark enough for this NG
> thread. Gas was costing them $2.50-$2.80 or so. This next batch will
> cost $4.80. The following batch will have an additional 75c cost.
> When I asked my "will the rental prices drop when the fuel price
> drops" I was told they they're building in a cost so that they don't
> have to raise them again for the 75c delivery. Read that however you
> want - but to me, I think you're right - it all sounds like
> ripoff/gouging to me.
>

I just looked at some OLD data for fuel prices at RHV. In January of
2003, the largest fuel dealer was charging $2.69 per gallon. In July of
2004, it was $3.13. In March of this year, it was $3.26. These prices are
the discounted prices for customers with a charge account at the dealer.

The quoted $2.50 - $2.80 more in line with 2 year old fuel prices at
RHV. Have rental rates stayed the same since January 2003 through August
of 2005?

> OK, I just called the 'fuel guy' at RHV. Price today for a gallon is
> $4.04, tomorrow will be $4.40. He said it's definitely temporary. He
> added that the flight schools in RHV are leaving their prices the
> same, but are adding a temporary surcharge. He added that cheaper gas
> may be found at more rural areas since they will still be using older
> gas and would not have been affected with newer deliveries.
>
> The surcharge sounds fair to me. Now whether or not the fuel
> companies are gouging is a separate issue. It still hurts though. I
> guess it'll soon be the $1000 burger.
>
> Hilton
> P.S.: Not sure where the FBO manager got the $4.80 and 75c numbers
> from.
>
>
> Hilton
>
>



--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[George Patterson]

W P Dixon wrote:
> I'm not worried about the price of gas to much, according to the email I
> just got I won the lottery in Italy!!! ;)

You too?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Hilton]

Marty,

> I just looked at some OLD data for fuel prices at RHV. In January of
> 2003, the largest fuel dealer was charging $2.69 per gallon. In July of
> 2004, it was $3.13. In March of this year, it was $3.26. These prices
are
> the discounted prices for customers with a charge account at the dealer.
>
> The quoted $2.50 - $2.80 more in line with 2 year old fuel prices at
> RHV. Have rental rates stayed the same since January 2003 through August
> of 2005?

The comment was that the club had not increased rental prices *due to fuel*
in the previous two years. There was a (fairly) recent increase due to
insurance.

FYI: TWA and Nice Air's prices are still $80 and $90 respectively for a 172.
Not sure if/when/how they'll factor in the new (temporary?) fuel price
increase.

Hilton

[flyernzl]

I'm envy green.

Rates at our club, effective 1st May 2005:
Grumman AA1C / Cessna Aerobat $180 hr dual, $145 solo
PA38 $190 dual, $155 solo
PA28-140 $185 dual, $150 solo
C172N $205 dual. $170 solo
C172SP $255 dual. $220 solo
Piper Arrow 200R $255 dual, $220 solo
Cessna 180 $250 solo
Partenavia twin $390 solo
Plus landing fee: 2-seaters $16.00 C172/Pa28 $18.00 Arrow/C180 $19.00
Partenavia $23.00

No fuel increase as at today, but as road gas prices have soared we are
expecting an increase of $5 - $10 per hour.

You guys don't know how lucky . . .

[[email protected]]

Hilton,

You mixed em up, Tradewinds Aviation is $90, no clue what nice air is
but $80 sounds like what they would reasonably charge. I rent late 70s
archers out of tradewinds, which were $90 an hour in early 2004, $93
during the price jumps of 2004, and $97 an hour now. They haven't gone
up in several months (when avgas was a tad over $3 a gallon at RHV as
opposed to $4 now), I'm expecting a price increase of $5-$10 soon now
which will very likely lead to the end of my flying days. Which club at
RHV are you talking about, squadron 2? At tradewinds, after the 2004
gas increases eased off, I asked em to go back to $90 an hour, take a
wild guess whether it worked :-(

[[email protected]]

flyernzl wrote:
> I'm envy green.
>
> Rates at our club, effective 1st May 2005:
> Grumman AA1C / Cessna Aerobat $180 hr dual, $145 solo
> PA38 $190 dual, $155 solo
> PA28-140 $185 dual, $150 solo
> C172N $205 dual. $170 solo
> C172SP $255 dual. $220 solo
> Piper Arrow 200R $255 dual, $220 solo
> Cessna 180 $250 solo
> Partenavia twin $390 solo
> Plus landing fee: 2-seaters $16.00 C172/Pa28 $18.00 Arrow/C180 $19.00
> Partenavia $23.00
>
> No fuel increase as at today, but as road gas prices have soared we are
> expecting an increase of $5 - $10 per hour.

Wow! Where are you? I belong to a flying group (not a club, because we
don't own the planes) in Orlando and our rates (dry) are:
C-172N $40
C-172SP $65
C-172N (with newer avionics) $42

Beech Sundowner $48

They do ask us to buy fuel from the local FBO that handles the
scheduling and provides us meeting space and other services and that's
a bit pricey: $4.75/gal full serve (maybe more, I haven't flown in a
couple of weeks). But even with that, I get an IFR equiped 172 for
~80-$90 an hour.

John Stevens
SS ~30hours

[Hilton]

Hi,

> You mixed em up, Tradewinds Aviation is $90, no clue what nice air is
> but $80 sounds like what they would reasonably charge.

You are correct - I got the $80 and $90 the wrong way round. I got the info
from their respective web site: www.tradewindsaviation.com and
www.niceair.net.

> I rent late 70s
> archers out of tradewinds, which were $90 an hour in early 2004, $93
> during the price jumps of 2004, and $97 an hour now. They haven't gone
> up in several months (when avgas was a tad over $3 a gallon at RHV as
> opposed to $4 now), I'm expecting a price increase of $5-$10 soon now
> which will very likely lead to the end of my flying days.

I did my Instrument Rating in those Archers; and Private in the 172s (1978
models) and my CSEL in the Cutlass (no longer in the fleet).


> Which club at
> RHV are you talking about, squadron 2?

Yeah. I was trying not to be specific, but I guess through process of
elimination...


> At tradewinds, after the 2004
> gas increases eased off, I asked em to go back to $90 an hour, take a
> wild guess whether it worked :-(

Well, management has changed there a couple of times recently and rumor has
it that it will change again in the new few weeks, so we'll see.

Hilton

[[email protected]]

George Patterson wrote:
> W P Dixon wrote:
> > I'm not worried about the price of gas to much, according to the email I
> > just got I won the lottery in Italy!!! ;)
>
> You too?
>

Yeah, just wait until you read the fine print that says you get paid in
Lira.

[W P Dixon]

LOL,
oh yes I remember all to well having a wad of Italian money in my pocket
that amounted to about a quarter! ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> George Patterson wrote:
>> W P Dixon wrote:
>> > I'm not worried about the price of gas to much, according to the email
>> > I
>> > just got I won the lottery in Italy!!! ;)
>>
>> You too?
>>
>
> Yeah, just wait until you read the fine print that says you get paid in
> Lira.
>

[[email protected]]

Hilton wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > You mixed em up, Tradewinds Aviation is $90, no clue what nice air is
> > but $80 sounds like what they would reasonably charge.
>
> You are correct - I got the $80 and $90 the wrong way round. I got the info
> from their respective web site: www.tradewindsaviation.com and
> www.niceair.net.
>
> > I rent late 70s
> > archers out of tradewinds, which were $90 an hour in early 2004, $93
> > during the price jumps of 2004, and $97 an hour now. They haven't gone
> > up in several months (when avgas was a tad over $3 a gallon at RHV as
> > opposed to $4 now), I'm expecting a price increase of $5-$10 soon now
> > which will very likely lead to the end of my flying days.
>
> I did my Instrument Rating in those Archers; and Private in the 172s (1978
> models) and my CSEL in the Cutlass (no longer in the fleet).
>
>
> > Which club at
> > RHV are you talking about, squadron 2?

Doesn't suprise me. From what I heard from their members, that they
haven't raised prices in a while so they're just making one massive
price jump, where other clubs like TWA had several small increases.

>
> Yeah. I was trying not to be specific, but I guess through process of
> elimination...
>
>
> > At tradewinds, after the 2004
> > gas increases eased off, I asked em to go back to $90 an hour, take a
> > wild guess whether it worked :-(
>
> Well, management has changed there a couple of times recently and rumor has
> it that it will change again in the new few weeks, so we'll see.

I heard the same rumor

>
> Hilton

[Michael]

> Gas was costing them $2.50-$2.80 or so. This next batch will cost $4.80.
> The following batch will have an additional 75c cost.

That sure doesn't sound right. Like I said, we just got a batch of new
fuel last weekend, and prices on it only went up by 40 cents a gallon.
Sounds like someone is gouging.

Michael